TJ Stewart
Okay, people are entitled to their perceptions of virtually anything, then the question becomes is, why does your opinion of the thing mean that you get to develop law policy and discourse around it, in the sense that it would then impact that person’s or that things in life experience existence. And so what I kept coming back to is this notion that people are uncomfortable, broadly, generally, with sex work, because they think it’s unsafe. And there’s this prevalent frame that they are selling their body, right, one of the things I push back on in the book is that they don’t, you know, sell their body, particularly those that engage in direct forms of sex work or direct services, they sell a service.

Heather Shea
Welcome to Student Affairs NOW the online learning community for Student Affairs educators. I’m your host, Heather Shea. Today on the podcast. I’m sitting down with an author, scholar, faculty member, and also a colleague and friend from ACPA. Dr. TJ Stewart. We’re talking about his new book Sex Work on Campus, which happened to be the Association for the Study of Higher Education outstanding book of the year. I got to hear TJ talk about his book at ASHE last month, and I cannot wait to get into this topic this complex, nuanced and before now, I think absent conversation today on the podcast. Student Affairs NOW is the premier podcast and learning community for 1000s of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We hope you find these conversations make a contribution to the field and are restorative to the profession. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays, and you can find us at studentaffairsnow.com on YouTube or anywhere you listen to podcast. This episode would not be possible without the support of our new sponsor, Routledge, Taylor and Francis publishers happens to be the same publisher of this book. And you can view their complete catalogue of authoritative education titles@www.routledge.com/education As I mentioned, my name is Heather Shea, my pronouns are she and her and I am broadcasting from the ancestral traditional and contemporary lands of the Nish Novick, three fires confederacy of Ojibwe, Odawa and Potawatomi peoples otherwise known as East Lansing, Michigan, home of Michigan State University where I work in our gender equity center. So let’s get to the conversation. TJ, thank you so much for being here today. Welcome back to Student Affairs NOW. You were on a previous conversation about labor relations, which I think like dovetail to the today’s call. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So you are currently assistant professor of higher ed and Student Affairs at Iowa State University. I, as I as I said, as we were prepping today, I just finished reading your book on my Kindle. I brought it today as a little visual aid downloaded from for free. So thank you to that as well. But I’d love to just begin with a bit of your journey that brought you to your current role, and then how you’re entering the conversation today.

TJ Stewart
Yeah so thanks so much for that, Heather. I’m so glad to be back to talk about the book. And just to engage one more time. My pronouns are he and him. As mentioned, I’m assistant professor at Iowa State University in central Iowa on the traditional ancestral homelands of the Iowa. So I live work and play here in central Iowa, and it is a wonderful. So yeah, I I’m in my fifth year as a faculty member at Iowa State University, which I don’t know where the time is gone. But prior to that, I had spent my time as a student affairs professional, so I wasn’t practitioner, I wasn’t administrator and I often tell people that I am a I’m a practitioner at heart. Even though I’m a scholar and a faculty member now, I still love and think fondly on my time, working as a student affairs professional and I have always been involved in equity and justice related work. So I was an assistant director of a multicultural center at Ohio State University. I also worked with our bias assessment and Response Team. For a time I was a program manager in the Office of the Vice President for Student Life, I did some work with college student activism working as a liaison between the division and the students in the mobilizers, and organizers on campus. And then eventually took, you know, myself to the University of Georgia where I did my doctoral work in did work in Housing and Residence Life, particularly doing assessment and evaluation work. And so, you know, what’s interesting and sort of as I think about entering this conversation is, you know, this idea of college students and their engagement in sex work or erotic labor has always been a part of my personal sort of subconscious because what I mean by that is, you know, you’ve seen movies, you hear students have conversation, I mean, I talked in the book about song lyrics, like it’s all around us this notion that maybe possibly students who are in college or who’d like to be in college are doing this type of work either to pay for college or to maintain a particular lifestyle, I mean, any number of things, or to just survive their day to day needs and so on. When I started my work as a scholar, because I had been in equity and justice spaces, I felt like there was nothing you could tell me about some of these things. And then I’m sure you probably had a similar experience, Heather, of course, we’re always learning, but I was an assistant director of multicultural center. So there was nothing you could tell me about race, or gender, or issues around class or sexuality, or issues of capital, like, run the gamut. And then I started thinking about something like sex work and never in a class as a graduate student, never in a professional development conversation. It’s just not in the consciousness. And so then I’m like, Well, what else is not on my mind? Or if it’s not on my mind, as someone who’s in this work? It’s certainly not in the broad consciousness in student affairs and in higher education. So it that’s why it’s sort of always stuck stuck with me, it’s like what do we think about people populations that are in the margins of the margins, or on the margins of marginality. And that is how I kind of think about and situate sex workers. And so that was the impetus for a lot of my research that and there was a lot of activism around two pieces of federal legislation called which I talked about in the book as well, really, is what made me aware of what was going on. And so then I’m like, well, let’s stop leaving it in the subconscious. And let’s ask the question, and let’s have the conversation and out of that came sex work on campus as a way to think about and to, you know, invite people to engage in this dialogue with me, that

Heather Shea
Originally your dissertation research, correct. And then as a new faculty member, you decided to write a book? For me, yeah, the students decide, okay, that’s right. Tell that story. How did you how did you come to write the book and why? Well, you talked a little bit about the why the topic now but more Well,

TJ Stewart
in this kind of connects to some of what you know, we’ve talked about Heather, offline is this notion of how I approached the research as a researcher, and I use the language in the book collaborator quite intentionally when I’m referring to the students in this study. Because it didn’t feel good to me, even with, you know, some methodologies in which there’s this assumption around, you’re supposed to really be engaged with the community at the center of the inquiry. And but it still felt like, once that was done, it was like, thank you so much for your stories and your time, and now I’m gonna go forth and do what I want. But those that didn’t feel good to me. And so I started trying to dream. And imagine if I were on the other side, if I were, the person or an experience that I had was at the center of a project, what would make me feel like that I was sharing in doing this thing. And so I started to brainstorm some things that I wanted to try out. Now later, I published a piece called I don’t feel studied, where I offer a new framework for doing this. But at the time, there was no framework, I’m just kind of like flying the plane and building it, figuring out trying some things out. And one of the things that I suggest researchers do is to when a study in terms of data collection is complete, to just simply ask them. Where do you want your stories to go? So the qualitative research or narrative inquire, where do you want your stories to go? How do you want people to hear them? Like, where do you think they would be most useful? And explain to them all the options I said, we could do public scholarship, if we could write blogs, op eds, we could try to get something in a paper. I don’t know. Maybe we could do the New York Times. I mean, I was throwing everything like what can we do together? That I said, Okay, or we could do articles. Here’s that process. Here’s how long it takes. It’s a behind a paywall. So you can think through what that means to you, we could do a book, here’s how that might look, here’s how that process might goes. And you know, and I just went through all the options, what would what is your Ask of Me, as seven students in this project, and they resoundingly were like, We want to book. And then I’m, like, shoot, because I’m a new faculty member, you know, one of things I tell you is, like, you know, pretend you’re you really shouldn’t be writing books. And here I was, in my first year, still with the voices of the students in my head, like we wanna, we want a book. And so I’m like, well, I need to write the book. And so I did offer to, to allow them to join me as co authors. That was also important to me in making them true collaborators, once they realize that it’s not a lucrative process, and it’s also very laborious. They’re like, No thanks. You can write the book, we want a book, but we’ll let you write it. And I was like, Okay, fine. I will write the book. And so so it was really a mandate. It was them saying, we want it and because we think that that’s more accessible now, I took it a step further. They didn’t ask this of me, and there was no guarantee I could do it, but I took it a step further to say not only am I going to do a book, but I’m going to make sure that it’s open access, I’m gonna make sure that anybody who wants to read it can read it. And really specifically, if there are sex workers who are also college students, I didn’t want them to have to pay a dime, to engage a resource that was about their life and their experience, they should just have access to that. And so I was really happy, I was able to do that for the students and just for the greater good. And so that was the why. But you know, but that was what made them collaborators. That’s one example. There are others. But I felt like we got to ask them, how they want their work to move forward. I don’t think we get to make that decision by herself. So that was

Heather Shea
your you go into such detail about their stories. And I know that also was a collaborative process, right, where you work together to talk to me a little bit, because I think you mentioned this in this process, like, how did you also make sure that they were okay, and safe? And not? I mean, to the extent that we can help mitigate any risk? I feel like that would weigh on me for sure. Yeah,

TJ Stewart
so one of the things I was really interested in is I wanted the students to know all about me. I wanted to be very exposed long before they even thought about revealing themselves to me. And so my approach was, I remember some folks in my program were like, TJ, you’re so vain. How do you have your picture on your dissertation flyer, like, there is a strategic purpose, but I wanted them to see me, I wanted them to see I was doing a study about college students engage in sex work, and I’m putting my face on, because I’m not ashamed of this work. I’m not ashamed of you. I’m not ashamed of the labor for that you you’re engaging here that I’m standing proudly next to you as much as I can in this work, right. And then, you know, we had to, to our interviews. So that was just the conversation, right. And even a stranger, I mean, I don’t know about you have an affair, I’ve talked to someone for four hours, they’re much less of a stranger than they were before. And so after that, right, and they were like to two hour interviews, they were about a week apart, you know, then we sat down to co write these memoirs, and either their first time engaging in sex work or memorable time. And the reason why I offered to co write them is because I had some experience with the creative nonfiction for, but also, I don’t want to ask them for more labor. And so there was the flyer they got, they were able to visit my website, they were able to read blogs, they were able to find anything that I could find or throw up, throw up on there. And then they decided I want to talk to this person. Okay. Right, I got a sense of who they are, I got to, you know, and so, you know, over the course of the the interviews, and you know, we didn’t get to the more intimate parts of their experiences, until we’ve already had that for hours together, which, as you know, as a researcher is a lot of time with one person in a study, typically, it’s like, Oh, I’ve interviewed one person for 45 minutes to an hour. And then I moved on, it’s like, no, I had four hours of time with each of them. And then we got together to figure out how do we write these stories? And so, you know, I asked them to only go as far as they felt comfortable. I told them they can stop and at any time and we can pull back you know, in one of the stories I don’t know if I’m not you know, suggesting remember all of them but in Tiana story, for example, Fight Night, right where she went to Las Vegas, during her first time engaging in sex work. During the Mayweather Pacquiao fight, she talks about her experience. And there’s that scene where she’s like walking down the long corridor to the room. And I asked her, was it a long walk? And she says it always is and, and then we just kind of fast forward to the next morning. So it wasn’t really this process where we’re getting into all this, like, you know, intimate detail. And I remember asking the students at the end of the study, what was this like for you? Here’s what I hoped to achieve. And there were like, No, I had no, I was under no illusion that this would be some like, you know, salacious, like, you know, messy kind of process. But that, you know, we could tell you, we’re really trying to be thoughtful. So, you know, because it wasn’t about the work itself. It’s really about them as they do that work. Right. And that’s what I tried to try to kind of put some boundaries around it. But I mean, as you can see, what we got are these really, I mean, the stories are what maybe 1000 or so words, each, I think there’s maybe seven to 10,000 for 77 stories, but you get these really vivid pictures of these experiences that the students are having. And so it was really beautiful process, and I tried to model care. And I think what made that possible is that they were truly collaborators, like not just a name, but in practices. And so because they had control in the process with me, it was very different than the sort of extractive kind of transactional engagement. So the article that I wrote called, I don’t feel studied is because one of the, you know, collaborators and I don’t feel studied in this moment, oftentimes when I do research, it’s this really gross feeling. But we’ve had an exchange we’ve shown They are with each other. And that made the difference for her. So yeah, so it’s just, you know, and I think that allowed them to be vulnerable and to go places that maybe they wouldn’t have otherwise in different contexts. Yeah,

Heather Shea
yeah. Well, and I know that you were also really direct in the book about identities and shared identities and centering Oh, yes. You know, particularly, you know, identities in which you you had in common and so I think, you know, the way that race and queerness shows up, also in the book is really, I think that’s the other private kind of important thing. How did you find students? I mean, I’m, because, again, like, there’s this hidden, it’s missing from the literature, but I’d say largely missing from our conversations about student experience. How did you find students?

TJ Stewart
So we did a, we did a open call. And one of the things that I knew a national call, one of the things that I knew was that we got to do it differently. This is a sensitive topic. Yeah, confidentiality, and privacy are going to be of the utmost importance. But then also, right, I’m talking not only to college students who are engaged in erotic labor, but also those with racially minoritized and sexually minoritized identities, right? Yeah. So then I’m like, okay, you know, engaging in this study for a chance at $25 to Amazon did not feel good to me. But it felt great to me was, hey, if you think that this is a good fit for you, in terms of participating in this study, as a collaborator, how about $25 an hour of your time? So then that’s different? I think it shows a commitment that I have to ethical labor, right? Ethical compensation for time, in a in a type of work where that is important, right? And so those were the types of things I were having. And so I remember I talked to one of the students to say, you know, what are why did why this study, right. And so one of them was like, I’ve seen calls for studies like this before, and I would never have dreamed. But when I saw yours, first I saw you right so to your point about identity, I see this, you know, this fat body black man. Let me see more about him. What’s going on here? And then you were looking for sex workers with these identities? Yeah. So Oh, you’re talking about me? Also, often, I feel like I have to see myself in whiteness, or there’s an assumption of whiteness as default. But no, you made clear. I’m interested in students who are doing this work and who have these identities. And then it’s paid. So she kind of was like scaffolding. Like, this was the study, I needed to be like, this was study, this was a study that was made for me. And so what I can tell you, and I don’t know if I’ve written this, and it might have been in the epilogue, but 24 hours after my call went out, I think there, there were, like 3027 to 30 people who had signed up and were interested, my final study only had seven students. And the reason why is because I wanted to practice a really good ethic of consent. And what I mean by that is, because of the topic, now, if I let’s say I was doing a study on like, study habits of undergraduate students, I might nag them, hey, you signed up? Do you sure you want to do this? Hey, I haven’t heard from you, Hey, do you want to, but because of what I’m doing, it felt powerful to me to say, I will reach out to them no more than twice without a reach back. Because I don’t think someone has to say, I don’t want to be in your study, for us to know, they don’t want to be in our state. And so there’s a possibility, however, that had I done more follow up, I may have had more. But I also think that for the ones that really want to be in it, those seven, they reached back quickly, strongly, fiercely, right. And so the other thing is because it was dissertation research, I was just a team of one. So some of the folks it took me a minute to get to so maybe if I had a team, but what it shows that in 24 hours, 30 people signed up for this topic means people were chomping at the bit to tell their story. Yeah, they were chomping at the bit to talk to someone that even on the surface level, right, they didn’t really know what it was going to be like until they did it. They didn’t really know if I would be a safe space for all of the challenge of that phrase until they were in it. But something about it felt like if there was ever going to be a chance that was this. And so that meant a lot to me. And it was something I really sat with like that, in itself was a finding that in that very quick timeframe. There were 30 people who were ready. When when we were doing the proposal when I was doing the proposal, if I can maybe it was like, well prepare your project so that if you only talk to one student, that you’re able to move forward. And so we were like, well, let’s just get one. So seven, you know, exceeded any dream I had of what this project could be. Yeah.

Heather Shea
Well, it sounds like the amount of data and also the time intensity of it. And then the length of time that you’re engaged with the collaborators, right, not just through the dissertation, but through this process.

TJ Stewart
Yes, four of them. Four of the seven or three of the seven endorsed the book. That’s it Other Other fun fact, when people look at the endorsements of my book, at the top three of them were students in the study. And so that was my intention, a way of saying, no offense to my colleagues, I love them. They’re great in the field. I didn’t want the big deal name saying, Oh, this is a great book. I wanted the students who were in the study to say, I in this, and you need to read it. Yes. Right. That was what I wanted. And so I didn’t reach out to all seven, there were we we negotiated into the study who wanted to continue to stay in touch with me, and who wanted to have that break just for their confidentiality and privacy. But for the ones that were fine to stay in contact, those were the ones I asked, and they are like, yeah, and they read the book, and then they offer their endorsement. Wow.

Heather Shea
Yeah, that’s awesome. I also really liked and this is a new one on my question list, but the way that you were in your forward and your afterward centered sex workers as well, right, and scholars in this space, that was, that was awesome. Can you say a little bit more about how you identified how you found those folks? Or?

TJ Stewart
Yeah, so there was a two folks who wrote the foreword and afterword who go by the names of thought scholar and respectively. And when I was doing the study with the students, I was really curious in terms of who was impacting or informing their understanding of erotic labor, who were people that they felt like were offering wisdom and ways to keep themselves safe, and just who were they, because my suspicion wasn’t that they just kind of woke up one day and said, You know, I’m gonna do sex work and go try it out. But then maybe there was a period of research and connection, maybe there was mentorship, I didn’t know I didn’t want to make assumptions. But I asked them. And one of in both of these names came up, Raquel Savage, overwhelmingly, who wrote the afterword of the text was someone that they felt like that they learned from that was a good advocate for them, as you know, women of color in the work. And then what I appreciated about top scholar who wrote the foreword is that there was a lot of writing theoretical and conceptual writing around sex work and erotic labor that she was doing that it was really instructive to me like, I mean, she was also published in the Columbia Law Review, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of in your work, whether the book we to, remember the me to movement, there was a way to that talked about the essays of issues around sort of sexual violence. In some other context, she’s published there. And so she was advancing a lot of frameworks to specifically centered sex workers with minoritized identities. And that was really the point, because there’s voluminous work out there about sex work broadly, a lot less about higher ed specifically, but then what is available is typically about, you know, white women in pornography. And so what she has was trying to do is complicate Alana, a lot of the prevalent discourses around what are the experiences of sex workers with these other identity experiences. And so one of the pieces in ACPA journal JCSD, well, it’s called what I have to do for a check, which, which delineates these differences between what the sex workers felt like that they needed to do for a certain type of or level of money or compensation versus what they perceive other sex workers having to do. And what I was really trying to offer is advancing the conversation to say, despite all of the concerns, objections, fears around sex work even intra, right, this labor forms, there’s a lot of difference. And there’s a lot of inequity, and there’s a lot of ways that they’re traversing the landscape differently. So, so I chose those two folks, because they were instructed to these students, so it was also a full circle moment for them. So I tell them, you know, tell them this one I’m putting on like, I reached out to you, I don’t know if you have any interest, happy to compensate you to contribute to the books, but I invited you because and so then they got to read the text. And then they’re like, they don’t know these students, but they know that they’ve impacted these students, and then they got to contribute in the text. So it really is this sort of, you know, beautiful kind of connection, sharing full circle of life kind of moment, having all these voices in one space and having them having impacted each other in ways they didn’t even know or were aware of.

Heather Shea
Yeah, I loved I love both of those pieces. That’s kind of on the book ends. Right. And that they just really added a lot to Yeah, overarching overarching message. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Especially the last piece. The funny part was when she’s confronted in the class, and then the Student Yes. Yes. See me, you know, ya know, me.

TJ Stewart
And given the educational context, that’s why I like that one. Specifically, she talked about, you know, she had an undergraduate degree she got an advanced degree was in counseling and therapy in class and hearing people talk about how do you help, you know, prostitutes, right language I don’t use but Right. She’s really and so I thought it was a really good example, as folks in education as folks trying to support students what her experience was like, going through that so it was very meta in that way and But I really love the app to work for that reason.

Heather Shea
Yeah, I want to get to that idea of invisible eyes in labor in a moment. But I want to talk about labor more, because I think one of the things that you complicate in the book is the legitimacy of various forms of labor. If we have a problem with sex work, what, you know, our erotic labor, you know, we really, maybe need to unpack what the origins of that is. And then also, what does that mean, for for labor itself? And can you say more about that you say, way more?

TJ Stewart
Yeah. So one of the things that I was really trying to do in the book was to think through where I tried to get it, get out of myself, right, and get into maybe the public consciousness, the psyche of the average person, like, Where does discomfort around this issue come from? Is what I was trying to figure out? Yeah. And, you know, there’s this emotional aspect, there’s this logical aspect, but I’m like, Okay, what is it? And what kept coming up for me? And then I think what substantiated a lot in the literature is this idea that people think that it is maybe immoral, right? Like, it’s bad. And I took a step back to say, Okay, people are entitled to their perceptions of virtually anything, then the question becomes is, why does your opinion of the thing mean that you get to develop law policy and discourse around it, in the sense that it would then impact that person’s or that things in life experience existence. And so what I kept coming back to is this notion that people are uncomfortable, broadly, generally, with sex work, because they think it’s unsafe. And there’s this prevalent frame that they are selling their body, right, one of the things I push back on in the book is that they don’t, you know, sell their body, particularly those that engage in direct forms of sex work or direct services, they sell a service. Okay, then for those, so let’s think about someone who made let’s say, they’re at inserting an adult club, right? They’re really a performer, he may not like to perform. And she may think that the way in which they perform the way they present their performance is wrong or bad, but they can that’s a personal issue kind of. And so what it boils down to is, people think that there are good types of work, and bad types of work. That’s really what it is like, and so were that where I wanted to go. And part of this came from Heather, very early on in my, in my process of doing this work long before this book was even thought about, right. I might have been actually actively excuse me, dissertating, yeah, someone was like, okay, TJ, let’s say we can see it all these things. Surely you have some critique about it, right? Because they’re wanting to get at the safety issue they’re wanting to get out? Is exploitation possible? Yep. There, there are ways in which it may or may not be safe, there are ways in which people can be exploited there. And so they’re wanting me they’re wanting to get me to say like, surely you have some critique, right. And so my response was to these folks were asking his questions is, you know, here’s what I will give you. Here’s my olive branch. Speaking of moral references, right? Sex work is problematic, insofar as it is labor under capitalism. Yes. Right. What that means is that we live in a society where we have to Heather, you and I and everyone else work to have housing, food and health care, which I think we should all be entitled to, by virtue of the fact we were born on this rock flying through space. Right. But that’s not the world we live in. So what my critique is, is that if we want to trouble the ways in which people have to survive full stop, I’m for that I’m not for saying the way you choose to survive, the system we’re in is better or worse than the way you choose it, because then it legitimizes the system. Right. So if we want to have a broader conversation around work, and in the case of students, are they working too much? Are there types of work they should or should not be doing? Then we have to have a broader conversation around work in connection to Student Affairs in Higher Ed, right? If we assume that people are doing it to pay for college, and in my study, I found that’s only half true. We have to complicate that, then we have to worry about the cost of college, not just because there are people who are engaged in sex work, but because there are also people door dashing, and UberEATS. And if we care about the ways in which students work or not, right, then we have to focus on the work not this work is fine and that work is not right. And so what I was trying to do is really getting us to think more deeply and critically, in a conceptual space of what really is the issue, right? We all use our bodies in different ways, LeBron James, the basketball player, or there are logging workers to spend all day cutting down trees, which by the way, per capita, in terms of deaths each year is one of the most dangerous jobs, but there’s not legislation against logging, there are regulations, there’s not legislation against it as a job choice, right. And so I want us to just like be honest around what’s actually happening. And what I’m saying is, we are all in a system trying to make meaning trying to survive, and we have to survive it differently. Our contexts are different, where we start, right, where we end is different, but we’re all in it. And so what I’m saying is until we adjust the system, where work is not necessary, that we don’t get to dictate or to judge or decide which types of work are better, best. etc, right.

Heather Shea
Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. No,

TJ Stewart
I mentioned that offline about like, you know, why is it? Why is it illegal to sell something that it’s legal to give away for free? It just doesn’t make sense. Yeah,

Heather Shea
I say that line one more time, because I think that context is so interesting.

TJ Stewart
Yeah. So there was a court case in the Ninth Circuit, I want to say, and basically there was this organization bringing a constitutional case against the illegality of sex work. So they were trying to say that saying that sex work is illegal is unconstitutional was the position of the plaintiff. And so the state attorney was representing the state, I want to say of California, don’t quote me on that. But anyway, the judge asked the state attorney, why is it illegal to sell something that it is legal to give away for free? And I rewinded, the YouTube video and I, I had wanted to listen to that. But here, why is it illegal to sell something that it’s legal to give away for free? It’s like, why would it be illegal to sell water? If it was legal to give water away for free? If I had a well in my yard, right? It’s the same thing. Why is it illegal to sell you an apple, but I could give you an apple for free? Right? And so it’s that same kind of notion? And the response was, Well, because the legislature says it is. Yeah. I mean, what question What is it about?

Heather Shea
Yeah, morality, right. I mean, then like, Okay, what’s influencing our legislative actions? And yeah, yep, yep. So the other thing that related to labor that I thought was really interesting and illuminating with the amount of work, you know, students had to, to engage in yeah, to get the amount of money they needed versus any other job, right? Yes, or good or whatnot. Yeah,

TJ Stewart
that’s a really good point. And that that came from some of the literature. I mean, even pre my project, I mean, I think what I found in my study, supported and further substantiated, what a lot of scholars have found it that, you know, people say, what is the motivation? Why do students do this, and I’m like, in a word money, like it’s, but it’s not just money it is, it is the amount of money that they can make relative to the time it takes them to make it. So it’s not just oh, they’re doing it to make money. So going back to the previous conversation I was just having with you, it’s, if I get to do less work, which is why some people think about sex work as anti work, Heather, which is fascinating. We’re gonna talk about that in the book. So because I can do this work and make this much money and this much time, I’m actually it’s a form of resistance to do this work, because I’m saying work is stupid. So if I got to do it, I want to get the biggest bang for my buck, right. And so I think that that is something to consider. It’s not just that they can make money, the amount of time they spend doing it relative to what they make. And so there was a student, Kimmy to your pointer on target. She was talking about why she didn’t tell people that she was on campus, that she was engaged in sex work. And she said, You know, one of the things I’m worried about is if I told these staff members or administrators, I’m doing this, they want to save me like, oh, no, we got to help you. And she’s like, I really would have preferred someone saved me from working at Target, which is something no one would have ever done. If she would have said, Oh, my God, I’m working at Target. And I’m stocking the shelves, or I’m doing online orders. And I’m just like, miserable. No one would say, Oh, my God, we got to find you a new job. They would say, oh, suck it up. That’s like, that’s just a job. Right? And so, you know, it’s one of those things, and it connects to I wasn’t thinking about Dr. Chris Linder, who we’re currently working on a piece around sex work and sex violence, but she talks about and we talk about in this also, it gets complicated. I talk about it in the book, some that the fear that sex workers have, including students in sharing is that they are afraid that they can’t say that they do this work and then complain about it, because then it’s also used as evidence of why they shouldn’t do it. And what they say overwhelmingly is like That’s a fair Heather, you and I complain about our job all the time, right? Maybe not publicly, but we’re like, oh my god, here’s this thing at work that no one says, Well, you know what, Heather, you don’t need to be a director in the center, you don’t need to be in higher ed. Right. But that’s what we do. And so that’s where I tried to hold the complexity. And the nuance of the topic is, I create a space. And in the text, we talk about it here. The challenges, here are the things I didn’t like about the work. And I still rather do it over working at Target. So what do we do with that, as folks that are trying to support students? And when we think about agency, and when we think about choice, when we think about right, we got to create space for that. And I don’t know that we always do that for sex workers, generally, but certainly not students for that.

Heather Shea
Yeah. And I think I think part of that, and I’m going to step back for a moment, because I think that whole like we need to save them from the work is also rooted in a confusion between what is sex work, and what is sex trafficking. Yeah. And the ways that those things get conflated, right. And then there’s this group of people out there that is like, Okay, we have to make sure that there’s, you know, and then there’s a whole kind of interesting divide there between those who are powered and have agency and those who are victims and need saving. So you say more a little bit about that difference? Yeah,

TJ Stewart
so it’s interesting, because I think, you know, the, it took me a while to get to the bottom of and there are some scholars who are brilliant and, and eloquent who I think that they’re quick, quicker and more concisely, but this notion that the conflation is quite, it’s quite intentional. So going back to the beginning, there were two pieces of legislation, it was the sesta and foster, which are acronym sesta, was for the stop enabling Sex Trafficking Act. And Foster was the fight online Sex Trafficking Act. Since then foster there were two pieces of federal legislation and what they said they did on the surface, whether it was to deter sex trafficking, what it did in practice is run almost universally, you know, adult consenting sex workers off of a free internet. Right? And, and then it drove advertisements and E commerce around sex trafficking further underground. So it just didn’t do any of the things that it said it would do. And in fact, many sex workers were warning of this long before it was passed, when we heard it was coming. This was like, no, no, this is a problem because it allowed them it didn’t allow them to screen clients, it didn’t allow them to share a bad date list online, allow them to share, you know, experiences with right. And so all of that, because essentially not to get too in the weeds. The previous legislation was Heather, if you designed a website, and then I come and use your website, as a user and I do something illegal. You were not held accountable. I as the user, the fact was, now Heather, you design a website, and I do something illegal, this illegal thing on your website, you are held accountable. So then what do you think all the websites did? Oh, there is no dating section, there is no, you know, meeting up for sex section. And so all of the places where they so that’s the super simple version. But hopefully that’s helpful understand what these this legislation was doing. And then they were they’re all also complications were like, their banks were accounts were being closed. PayPal was banning them. So you were seeing it across the board. Because what they saying they wanted to deter is, again, the trafficking but then any sort of sexual transaction was swept up in and that was essentially the challenge. And so part of that is, it’s done intentionally going back to our earlier conversation, why is it legal? To sell something that or why is it illegal to sell something that it’s legal to give away for free, because we’re supposed to live in a country that has separation of church and state. So you can’t come right out and say, This violates my religious or spiritual sensibilities? And so therefore, I’m going to write a law against it. That quite literally doesn’t work. And in fact, in that same court case, the the moral question was asked of which the judges shot it down. And in the previous case, because you know, it’s the case that worked their way up through the courts on appeal and all that. And they tried to make that argument early on. And the judge was like, No, I don’t by the moral argument, because we’re not allowed to do that. But they still ruled in their favor. So they know they can’t come right out and say, here’s why we don’t like this thing. But their way to get at it. This is my long way of saying, if we just make everyone think that anything related to sex trafficking, then it’s always swept up under this prostituting another frame. And so that is sort of what happened. And so how I explained it is they’re not totally disconnected. They’re two separate issues on a continuum. There is a spectrum, right, but it looks different. So I think, you know, one of the things the series taken with Liam Neeson was like the worst thing that ever happened to sex work in erotic labor, because what people often think, and sex trafficking for that matter is like there’s someone hiding in a bush, and you probably familiar with this with sexual violence work. There’s someone hiding in a bush, and they’re going to jump out and kidnap stranger danger. What’s actually happening Heather and we never see this in any of the sex trafficking work? Is it someone you know, it’s a parent, right? Let’s, whether it’s a mother, father, parent who has a child, who then allows people to do things with that child for money, or it’s a partnership, like someone you’re married to, who then allow certain things or does or compels you to do. So. That’s actually how sex trafficking happens in practice, but that’s not the frame, the frame is this other thing. And so it’s not so one of the reasons why we are pushing is because in an effort to kind of quell sex trafficking, and by association, and critical conflation sex work, we actually are doing victims of sex trafficking a disservice. And in fact, some of the most vocal advocates against sex trafficking are sex workers, because they recognize what consent is and what it looks like, because they recognize what it means to have agency to the extent that we’re not talking about capitalism and systems, but under that, right umbrella, as much agency as one can have. Right. And so that has been the challenge is trying to get people to disentangle those two things. I’ll give you another concrete example of why this is a fraught relationship. People will often say there’s been many like busts in like, massage parlors, many of them were Asian International. Immigrants may be working, and they will say we did a bus, this was a sex trafficking ring, and we did a bust. But then Heather, why is it at the end of that bust? All the people who were allegedly supposed to be saved, are turned around and deported. Yeah. It doesn’t make nothing about what’s happening. Makes sense. And so what I’m trying to do with a very complex issue, is really kind of walk folks through so we can start asking some different and critical questions, because what we will find is, we’re actually all on the same side. But what we do is what what detractors do is they get people caught up in the sensation of it. And so what I’ve been trying to do is just turn down the temperature, when you hear sex work and erotic labor to not tense up to not collect your pearls. But just enter in a curious space. And then we can start to actually disentangle some things here. Like, you know what, this actually doesn’t make any sense. And I’m like, precisely why we need to do this.

Heather Shea
Exactly. And yet, we haven’t talked about it. Right. And that’s, that’s the other part that I think, is the implications of this work is that what does this mean for folks who work in Student Affairs? And I’m really curious, you know, what did you learn? Like, what did you learn about how many students are engaged? What did you learn about what they were learning about themselves? Through sex work? Yeah. How many students are we talking about? Because that’s the other part is like, Oh, well, we don’t really know what we don’t collect this information, where do you would talk about it? So.

TJ Stewart
Yeah, so I will say, the short of it is, is that we need a lot more quantitative data. The challenge is because of the topic, and so let me take a step back without getting too in the weeds. Our UK colleagues are way ahead of us on this topic. And there was a national sex works, study slash survey that they did, which was brilliant that I’ve been trying to figure out how to replicate. But the size of our nation as a national study is very different than they are so like, logistically, the amount of colleges and universities and the amount sheer amount of students, it’s just, you know, exponential sort of scaling and to figure out how to do that. So that’s something that is on my brain, I haven’t given up on it. But I’m slowly trying to figure out what that looks like and how we go about that. But we need more quantitative data, there are only estimates. And I talked a little bit in the book about like sugar baby University, and like sea kings like project where they were reporting some numbers around what they felt like were students engaging, but it was all self reported. The challenge is, they don’t verify if people were actually students or not. So any random person could sign up and say I’m a student, because that also selves, right, being a student being the CO Ed right. And so some people will say that their student, they may not actually so there’s really no way of knowing what the real number is. There are some UK numbers, they range anywhere between like the at any given time, or over many years, like the 12 and like, you know, 12 and like 20. I’ve seen numbers like 12 and 3030. Feels a little high to me, but we don’t know it’s inconclusive is what I will say. But, but we know it is happening. Yeah, there was a table in the book and like, and when you look at some of the institutions, like for example, NYU was, here’s a top in terms of where we suspect and probably because the cost of living of higher ed, the cost of living in New York, right and so there’s some things that we can make some sort of assumptions. I think that what I learned when I think about on the ground, right, so for people listening to this, you’re like, This is all fascinating. What am I supposed to do right? Is What we need to think about and I don’t talk about this in the book, I talk about it briefly because it’s reporting from an empirical piece and article, I guess I should say, not an empirical piece, the book is empirical. But we have to figure out what are things that impact that potentially all students on our campus will benefit from, but that target college students, sex workers with like surgical precision, for example, there were some students who were saying, like for me to get HIV and STI testing on one of their campuses, it was like $100, every screen every time. And so if we could find out a way to systemically allow free testing for students, that is something once a week, right? That it that is something that any student can take advantage of, but targets right sex workers are ones that allows them to keep them safe. of our of the seven, in my study, two of the students were very clear that they only engaged in this work an episodic basis, when they were in a financial crunch. So what I tell the people who were like, We need students to stop this, and I’m like, and in my study, there were two who wanted to and here’s what they said they needed. They need emergency grant programs, not loans, grants. Hey, I have to

Heather Shea
get your account I need today. Right.

TJ Stewart
Though, food pantries, we are starting to see those and more, right when we think about food insecurity broadly. So that is impacting some of these students. And so those are the types of things would help you know those two students, but not all of them. Because then there was one student in my study, for example, who was doing it because she didn’t want her parents on the hook for her student loans. So she, they took so she had about $40,000 in loans, they were willing to help her and she said, No, that’s why she turned to it. She’s like, that was my debt. I’m gonna pay for it. There was but then there was one person Tiana when she finished her first time, she was like, I finally had money actually felt less depressed. Imagine that she engaged in sex work for the first time and was less depressed, because she said, I have food money. I have Bill money, I have Starbucks money. She’s not even paying for school. She’s just like, I need coffee. Right? And so it was one of those things that I think like, what are the things that we can do, then also, visibility is a concern. There’s some wonderful work to shout out the University of Rhode Island, he’s doing some really interesting work, connected to some of my work, which was exciting, but also some things that they were just their gut was telling them they should do. So for example, we have to increase visibility about the topic through conversations like this, yeah, through inviting people to campus. Because then what that signals to students who are engaging in that work, it’s like, oh, there’s an awareness that we might be on the way to developing a context where I can reveal myself so brown bag lunches, and talk about it from non deficit perspective, if possible, and if it’s aligned with the work of a particular office to bring someone in for a heritage and awareness month or week or speaker series. So you know, because one of the things in the study, I had asked the student, like, How could your institution have showed that they were supportive? And she struggled? Many of them? I rephrase the question. And I said, Okay, and this particular student was a black woman, it was like, how did your institution at least attempt to, you know, show you that they were supportive? She was like, Oh, well, there was this staff member who did programming for black women, there was a few programs, there were student orgs. And I’m like, someone asked you the question again, how could your institution, right, and so then the like, light came on, and because they just assumed it’s not a place you’re going to be welcomed or supported in that space. But then she’s like, Well, really, all of those things would be things that would have made me feel supported in this space. And so you know, this idea, I call the finding in that article, the impossibility of imagining, because it’s just not a place, we can see ourself there. So I think we have to figure out how do we reveal ourselves to them first, similar to what I did in the study, and that’s through conversations as reprogramming. That’s through advocacy, there’s national organizations like swap the sex worker outreach project, they have something that every state has a state chapter for some of their state chapters, or local city chapters, inviting them to table at an event because they do outreach. They have resources we want if you feel like your institution, isn’t in a place where they’re ready to commit resources to it, find the people that do have it, and connect your students to them. And so I think there’s a lot right, we can do in that way. And and I think, you know, in terms of, you know, in our work or Student Affairs theory, to practice to theory that are some student development type of considerations, because one of the things I found in the book, in chapter five I talk about in darkened consciousness. Yes. And, essentially, the short version is sex work operates as a consciousness raising phenomenon in their lives, and the ways in which they’re making meaning of issues of power and depression, survival and systems is well beyond what I saw, in most cases with most undergraduate students. And so, you know, what does it mean to have a public awareness in the public consciousness that this thing is bad or wrong, right, quote, unquote, and to do it anyway. Right. So then I asked and we talked fact about that they’re like, Well, what I don’t care what people think. But that right and wrong is a binary is just not how they’re understanding themselves developmentally, their choice making. It’s about justice. It’s about truth. It’s about, you know, survival. And so they’re able to articulate with it with quite clarity. There was no like, I’m not sure if I should be doing this. There was none of that there was like, there was some of that before they started. Sure. By the time we’re in this study, they’re like, No, I’m under no, i There’s no hesitation around my decision to do this. For some of them, it’s like, I wish I didn’t, for two of them was like, I would have liked to have been something else. But absent of having something else to do, I’m going to do this. And the others are like, Oh, no, I’m doing this. And they’re involved. They’re leaders on campus. They’re engaged in their women’s Student Center. They’re in sororities, they’re, you know, on our campus, and they’re engaging in this type of labor to meet their needs. And so, you know, there’s a student development piece because I mean, if we were to talk to them, I think it would blow apart everything we think we know about neural and cognitive development of college age students. And so we need to pay attention to that. And generally, I think we need to pay attention to just how work is impacting learning, and how learning impacts work, not just sex working erotic labor, but generally, I’m blanking on this day. We want to say it’s maybe Patrick Rossmann. It was a scholar who graduated from University of Iowa. He

Heather Shea
talks about, she talks about student work on campus. Yes. Harrington. Yes. Yeah. Ross. Yes.

TJ Stewart
Rosman is the last name. Wonderful actually chatted with him when I was reading the book, because of like, I was looking for people who did stuff around work, and students and I shared about the project, and we had this beautiful conversation. And I’m like, we need more of your work. And we need more people doing your work. And for people like me, it would have been instructive. And so my project contributes to that as one type of work and how it is impacting student experience and learning. But to your point, Heather, maybe it’s a future Student Affairs NOW episode, but how are we? What are students doing on campus for work? Why does that matter to their learning and development? And what do we need to be doing? Because we know they’re going to have to work, they’re gonna have to continue to work, we know a little bit

Heather Shea
and where they work and who they work for potentially matters, right. I mean, I think his study really talks about the, the campus environment and supporting your academic goals, and you know, absolutely working for somebody who understands that, like, oh, I can’t make it to work today, because I have a test versus off campus. So yeah, that’s a really interesting, I mean, I think the broader conversation about labor in general and student labor and the kinds of ways that we we don’t compensate student later labor, activist labor very, very, there’s so many interesting pieces there. And you knew I was going to pick up on this because as I do work in women and gender equity center, you know, I think that I’ve read this book through the, through the lens on multiple levels, right, I read it through the lens of a scholar, who, who is really interested in your methods and their inquiry with my dissertation methodology, also. And then I was also really interested in like, Okay, so now what do I do within my space? And, and also, I recognize the ways in which women centers have often replicated a very specific type of feminism and you you kind of unpack that, like, radical feminism, or sex positive feminism, or creating these spaces where people feel judged, you know, and so the white, the white woman, feminist kind of, mentality, what are your suggestions for me or other colleagues who work in those spaces? And obviously, I’m a white sis woman. Right. So yeah, there’s also a complex complexity there. Yeah,

TJ Stewart
there is. I mean, I think, you know, that was really sort of in the last chapter of the book, right, we were alluding to was I really wanted to get back to sort of theory and paradigm, and how does that inform how we think about our work, and I really love the work of gender sexuality centers, and women’s student centers, Women and Gender students centers, because I think it’s ripe for some of this dialogue to take place, because there’s an awareness on some level. And so we know, you know, early on there was the, you know, anti pornography, sort of feminist or the pro pornography, feminist and there was the radical feminist and there was the sex rad right feminism. And so I was what I was trying to do in the book is like, disentangle that all of these folks had a very different position on sex work, and why that might matter. And so I think what, what I was trying to do is really bringing these perspectives and I think was the thread throughout the book of multiple minoritized groups? Yes. Right. So it’s not even just enough to say that I’m a sex radical feminist, which of those of the camps was would be the closest to align to those of us that are doing sex work in erotic labor work from an equity and justice perspective, but that we have To go a step further. So what I was offering was like, how do we center sort of an in darkened, queer ecstasy is our frame. And I’m quoting from Jenna, Jennifer Nash, how do we, instead of looking at the sort of sexual images, experiences and narratives from a place of injury, or an injured reading, I think is what I said it’s supposed to replace the sort of possibility stepping out of the here and now. And so I think that what we need to do is to just sort of complicate our understandings of sex generally. And so I talked a little bit about this idea of what does it mean to have a radical erotic politic for her? Yes, yeah. Right. And I think what I was, what I was suggesting, is this, for lack of a better phrase, and for time, or is bad at sex, just generally. Yeah. What I mean by that is,

Heather Shea
we have three ways that we address it.

TJ Stewart
Yes, it’s like, you know, don’t sexually assault someone, if you must have sex, like here are prophylactics. And like, you know, here’s your sexual health go to the health center, right? Like, those are the primary ways like that we acknowledge that many of us not all of us are sexual beings, and the way that we might think about that most simply, and so what I was just simply trying to argue was going back to labor. And going back to the body, is that the academy is only really concerned with the life of the mind, right. And we know that in student affairs, because we often talk about the age old, which is there’s some truth to it. And we also sensationalized and like this tension between us and academic affairs. So we know that that exists. The idea that we’re at a college university and the academic affairs are supreme, because we are supposed to be concerned with our brains. With learning with getting degrees with generating knowledge and student affairs, we’re like, yes, and that looks different. And there are multiple ways to do that. What I’m simply saying is, that same challenge of being concerned with the life of the mind means we don’t invite our body to be comfortably a part of the conversation in higher ed. And so I often talk about Teaching to Transgress by Bill hooks. We love Teaching to Transgress. And everyone always skips over her chapter on the erotic. And that’s interesting to me. She talked about it in a lot of different ways. So in a practical sense, she talked about how teaching for the first time when she had to use the bathroom, she didn’t know what to do, because no one ever told her you that you needed to tend to your body in this space. Because if we just didn’t I do some body pedagogy stuff with students sometime in class and have them close their eyes and ask them to just attend to, are they too hot or too cold? And why are you hungry? Or full? You know, do you need to go to the bathroom? Like, do you have an injury or chronic illness that you’re dealing with that we can’t see, but you’re in pain right now you just numb it and dull it. Because you know, when you come in here, you got it. And so when we think about it in that way, then we know the erotic is also connected to the body. So it also gets disconnected from our conversations and our consciousness around what it is that we bring to the room. So I’m not saying we have to come and be sexual with each other. I’m not saying we have to be explicit in our conversation with each other. But how do we and I hate to use this phrase, as someone who tried to queer that chapter? How do we normalize the erotic in our bodies, as part of what I come here, I bring everything with me. And we see this in with a lot of disability scholars and discredit the idea of how the hire is not kind to the body. So when I’m so that’s my simple way of saying and I talk about sort of refusals and embraces and get into the granularity, but generally, what I’m saying is, we have to invite our bodies into our work, we have to not leave them at the door. We don’t just walk into our offices in our classrooms as big brains, but we’re whole people. But what the problem is, is the first thing that’s on the chopping block is the body, which includes an awareness of our physiology and awareness of our erotic and awareness. You know, I think about you know, again, same thing with like, let’s say there’s someone who’s pregnant, right? We we may see that, but we’re not supposed to talk about it or notice it or suggested that a pregnant body maybe has different needs while they’re carrying a child, right? It’s there’s all these ways that we don’t allow bodies to be bodies in higher ed and Student Affairs. And so what I’m saying is that we need a radical erotic politic. And what I’m really saying is, we got to allow the body to be a part of the conversation of our work, which also connects to labor, which also so there’s all these like, connections are connected. Yeah, read the book. That’s the high point you got to read the book to get the book.

Heather Shea
You do. I speak more highly. And I think the piece for me when I was thinking about this idea of the body connected is also we learned through our bodies as well as through our minds, right. So yes, if your body pedagogies Yes, you know, like that the process of moving our bodies we learned something about so I think that’s the kind of full

TJ Stewart
very good help. Absolutely, absolutely. 100%. Right.

Heather Shea
TJ, I am so grateful for you and for this conversation, and I could talk to you about It’s all day. I can’t wait to see you. Yes, but I do think your conversation about labor is a really interesting and student labor in particular. So yeah, this will not be the last time you come on. I know your other episode on labor acknowledgments also picked up on this theme. Right. And so there’s some really, some really nice three lines there. So this is our final thought, you know, what is your What are you thinking about traveling pondering could have to do with what we just discussed? But love to kind of hear that final comment?

TJ Stewart
Absolutely. So, um, you know, one of there’s a few things that I’m thinking about, I’m really interested in who and what was missing from this study. So as much as I loved it, and thought it was full and robust, you know, I was curious, where are the black, gay and or queer men? I noticed that, and I wondered about that, then the pandemic came in, and there was the only fans boom, so I’m actually working with a scholar right now. And we’re looking at the experience of black gay and queer men and their use of app based content creation. And we’re not using the phrase sex work, because what we found Heather, is people may engage in behaviors that I or we identify, since we’re gonna audit labor, and they may not identify sex workers themselves. And I think in the conversation you had with Chris and Steven Ross, student activists, we found that same thing you might recall, there are some people who engage students who engage in activism, but don’t identify as activist. So it got me thinking, do we have to be careful about the words that we use and irrespective of if you identify that way? If you so we’re doing a study, that’s not even asking if you identify as a sex worker, but do you use only fans just for fans, Grindr connects Powell as a way to make money. And then we can ask the question, how do you understand yourself as a sex worker or not? What do you think about so we’re interests? So we’re interested in the likely virtual space right now with college students? We’re interested in language and terminology. And then there’s this broader peace, I think around what does sort of the impact on the ground look like for students. And so I’m trying to think about what is the next phase issues around policy, I’m doing a study, looking at 255 colleges and universities and their policies on sex work and erotic labor, spoiler alert of the 255. Not one had a policy. But there was a lot of interesting things about the ways institutions in their policy language, particularly their codes of conduct language, talk about this topic. So maybe that’s the next episode is looking at policies and how that might matter what we’re finding. And so I’m really interested in those things. And then finally, I’m going to be advancing this work in different modality. So that’s something that’s looked forward to so with the stories that you read, Heather, I’ve had them all illustrated all the memos, like so now we have images to tell the story alongside it. So I’m in the process of figuring out how do we share those? Do we do a comic or graphic novel type thing that takes those seven stories with some additional news stories and content for folks who who want to be able to be impacted in that way? And so it’s not the end of this iceberg on campus project? Got a couple tricks up my sleeve yet. But so that’s where we’re headed. And, you know, we’ll see what happens. Well,

Heather Shea
thank you so much for your contributions to this, this particular conversation, but to this broader space, I think throughout the book, you talk about rendering visible, a group of students whose experiences have existed for, you know, on the margins and the margins of the margins, right. And so I think if we can just keep illuminating, making the invisible, visible to the extent that students want it to be right, like there’s a whole choice piece there. I feel like this is just a treasure. And I’m so grateful for your time and for this book, and for having the opportunity to read it.

TJ Stewart
Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for the invitation. And of course,

Heather Shea
of course, also just want to send quick gratitude to the labor of our incredible producer Nat Ambrosey. She does incredible behind the scenes things to make us look and sound great. So thank you so much for all that you do. And also thank you to our episode sponsors Routledge, Taylor and Francis is the world’s leading academic publisher in education. They publish a wide range of books, journals and other resources for practitioners, faculty, administrators and researchers. Routledge welcome stylus, publishing a former sponsor of Student Affairs now to the publishing platform, and are in our super thrilled to enrich their offerings in higher education, teaching Student Affairs, professional development, assessment and more. And we are so grateful for their support of student affairs. Now you can view their complete catalogue under www.routledge.com/education. So to all of our listeners, if you’re tuning in today have They already subscribe to our weekly newsletter, please take a moment to enter your email on our website, student affairs now.com. And you can stay in the loop with latest episodes delivered to your inbox each Wednesday. And while you’re there, you should definitely check out our growing archives. I think we’re at 180 some plus episodes now. Once again, I’m Heather Shea thanks to everybody who’s watching and listening. Let’s make it a great week.

Link to book: https://www.routledge.com/Sex-Work-on-Campus/Stewart/p/book/9781032046518