Tiffany Davis
And I said, there’s probably maybe three or four areas of kind of the factors. The first is the practitioner focus that you want. I knew that when I wanted to go to my master’s program, I really wanted a really practitioner oriented program. I wanted a strong assistantship, I want straw, I want require practicums. I wanted all of that. And so I looked for a program for faculty members who had worked in student affairs because I wanted to work with students with faculty members, who had been practitioners. And just like any part of the academy, you have faculty members that may or may not have spent any significant time working actually in a student affairs unit, especially depending on the focus of the graduate program. And so I wanted faculty members who had worked in the field.

Heather Shea
Welcome to Student Affairs now the online learning community for Student Affairs educators. I am the host of today’s episode Heather Shea. Today on the podcast, we’re queuing up a two part episode to kick off careers in student affairs month, we’re discussing an important step in the process selecting the right graduate program. Whether you’re an undergrad student considering grad school or professional looking to make a career change and go back to school. The decision of where to study can be overwhelming. On today’s episode, my panelists will be offering guidance and expert advice to help you do your research as you begin to consider a career in student affairs. Before I bring in our guests today, let me tell you a little bit about our channel. Student Affairs NOW is a premier podcast and learning community for 1000s of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We hope you’ll find these conversations make a contribution to the field and our restorative to the profession. released new episodes every week on Wednesdays and you can find us at studentaffairsnow.com on YouTube or anywhere you listen to podcasts. Today’s episode is sponsored by Symplicity. A true partner Symplicity supports all aspects of student life with technology platforms that empower institutions to make data driven decisions. Stay tuned to the end of the podcast for more information about our episode sponsor. As I mentioned, I’m the host for today’s episode Heather Shea, my pronouns are she her, her and hers and I am broadcasting from the ancestral traditional and contemporary lands, the Anishinabeg, three fires confederacy of Ojibwe, Odawa and Potawatomi peoples otherwise known as East Lansing, Michigan, home of Michigan State University where I work. Recently, I found myself engaging in conversations with undergraduate students who share a common aspiration a career in student affairs. So for some, their next step might be working for a year or two and then going into grad school. But for many, myself included, embarking on grad school right after right during Senior year is the path that they’re choosing. So as I said, today’s episode is focused on this grad school search process and I am thrilled to introduce three panelists today. Dr. Lisa Landreman, is the Vice President of Student Affairs at Willamette University in Salem, Oregon. Dr. Tiffany Davis is Associate Dean for Student belonging and success and Clinical Professor of higher education, leadership and policy studies at the University of Houston. And Will Hsu is a residence director at the University of San Francisco. Thank you to all three of you for joining me today. We’re going to start with just doing a quick introductions about your background and how you come into this conversation. And then if you can also share briefly, where you went to grad school for your master’s degree, why you chose that program, and what you wish you have would have done differently in the process. So Lisa, I’m going to kick it off with you. Welcome.

Lisa Landreman
Thank you. So I’m coming to you from Salem, Oregon, the land of the Calapooia, who today are represented by the Confederated Tribes of the Grand Ronde and the current Confederated Tribes of Siletz Indians. And to answer your question my graduate school? Well, first of all, how I come to this conversation is I’ve been in student affairs for a long career, and have worked with master’s students at different institutions. I worked at Michigan State and we know a school that had had a strong graduate program and, and worked with others that that didn’t, but students who were seeking graduate school after their work in Student Affairs, I also taught in a in a master’s program at the University of St. Thomas when I was in St. Paul. So I’ve been working with grad students for a long time and most recently, was the chair of next gen in New Orleans. I for myself, chose Indiana University for my master’s degree in higher ed and Student Affairs. And how I chose that was a lot of talking to mentors going I went to the placement exchange to look for graduate assistantship, which is a placement conference that they still exist today. We learned earlier, but just a lot of talking, were asking my mentors where they went to school and I was at the time of Social Work undergrad looking at counseling or higher ed and at the time, Bloomington, higher, offered a dual degree in counseling and higher ed, I thought that’s what I wanted. What I wish I would have done differently is I didn’t really investigate the counseling program, you know that i I only went to Student Affairs program and thought just checked off that a could get a dual counseling degree. It wasn’t accredited. It was going to require me to stay a third year, which is something I didn’t want to do. I would have had to take classes outside of order of my cohort. So I ended up within the first semester deciding I’m not doing that dual degree. And then I thought had I not, you know what I still chosen? I you I don’t know. I had a wonderful experience. But I think I would have done more homework about the degree that I was pursuing. I think maybe it says something about where my priority was, though.

Heather Shea
Thankfully, so welcome, Tiffany. Welcome.

Tiffany Davis
Hi, thank you so much for having me. I’m Dr. Tiffany Davis, my pronouns are she and hers. And I am currently broadcasting from the campus of University of Houston, where there is a strong history of numerous indigenous tribes and enslaved African Americans who have really shaped the land that I get to learn and work at. So how do I come to this conversation? So I was the traditional overinvolved student leader on the campus of the University of Tennessee. And I was also a member of NASA snuff program. And it’s a program dedicated to introduce student affairs and really support the pipeline building for students from historically disenfranchised and marginalized populations. And so I had a mentor, I got to do a lot of exploration. And I ended up at Bowling Green State University, for my graduate degree in college student personnel. And so I am from the south. So I did not consider going to the Midwest for a degree. But I went to Bowling Green, and I really chose that program for its practitioner focus. Everyone at the time and in and still continuing in the program, have the opportunity to have a graduate assistantship and to gain some very good practical experience. And for me, I was very excited that I didn’t have to do a area that I was already familiar with. And so that was really cool. So I went and I got an assistantship doing dei work, essentially, in running a mentoring program. But then I also had a unique opportunity to also be a graduate House Director. And so I lived in with 40, amazing women of Delta Zeta Sorority. And that was also extending my, my exposure to the field. And so that’s why I chose Bowling Green State, it was a great decision. I stick beside it. I think when I think about what could I have done differently? For me, I don’t actually have anything that I think I would do differently. I think the best decision that was so difference making was become being in community with other folks who are interested in the field of student affairs. So being enough, I had a mentor, I had mentoring conversations, I had went to professional conferences, I did an internship at an HBCU prior to going to grad school doing Student Affairs work. And so joining up with other folks who, either through mentorships or through peers was probably so different speaking for me that that is it allowed me a greater exposure to the field that I would have normally had. So that’s a great,

Heather Shea
Thanks, Tiffany. And Will, welcome.

Will L. Hsu
Hi, thank you so much for having me today. My name is Will Hsu, my English pronouns are he him his and I currently work as a resident structure at the University of San Francisco, also known as the ancestral lands of the romantische Speaking Aloni peoples. And so in terms of where I went to grad school, I got my Masters of Science in Student Affairs Administration at SUNY, Binghamton University. SUNY is the State University of New York system. And why I chose that program. So it was among eight graduate programs that I applied to at the time, it was not one of the programs that I was initially looking at. My mentor actually recommended it to me because some a faculty member, that was who is really prominent in particularly researching and writing scholarship about Asian American and Pacific Islander students taught in that program and knew that was going to be a good mentoring experience for me. And in terms of what I wish I would have done differently in the process. So I actually wish I would have started earlier to apply to various programs because I did feel a crunch when trying to get my applications done around the same time that I was in like my last like set Out of midterms or even just like right before my final exams, since my undergrad was on the quarter system, and I believe all the programs I was applying to they were on the semester system. Oh, there was a little bit of a mismatched timeline there. And also, just to get more information about the program, something that I was really looking forward to when I when my mentor first proposed the program to me and I did some research was that the program had the opportunity to either pass a comprehensive exam, or to write a master’s thesis as like one of the culminating projects for your graduation requirement. And I didn’t really know what that meant at the time. And but I liked having the options. So. And it wasn’t until like, being in the program that like I realized, Oh, these options have very different, very different experiences. So yeah, I’ll go ahead and pause there and probably expand a little bit more as we continue in our time.

Heather Shea
That’s great. Well, since we’re talking a bit about our experiences, I’m just going to share a little bit about mine, I did go to my master’s program at the same place that I did my undergrad, which was Colorado State University. And if I had to do over again, I would have tried and looked elsewhere, or at least explored other options, I applied to one program, and I just went there, because it was familiar, I think, ended up being a great experience. But as I think a little bit about that process, I think I could have expanded my search a bit. So thank you all for sharing a little bit about how you come into the conversation and also about your backgrounds and programs. Before we get into the kind of the search and applying and selecting, I want to focus just for a moment on a bigger question, which is how do I know Student Affairs is the right career for me? This could be an episode all in of itself. But Will, I I know that you have thought about this and talked about it a little bit with next gen. So I’d love to hear how do you figure out what your why is?

Will L. Hsu
Yeah, thank you for the question. So just for a little bit of context, this is a conversation that we’ve integrated into ACPAs next generation Institute, over I believe, like the last one to two years. And so really wanting the the focus to be on our undergrad students or our students who are considering this field to do some soul searching of like, what is what is their reason for being and how does working in this field align with that. There’s this Japanese concept that we’ve like drawn from called iki. Guy, and iki guy is basically translation, a reason for being. And if you were to think about it in terms of a Venn diagram, your iki guy is at the center of what you’re good at what you love, what the world needs, and what you can be paid for. And so, like many of us, came into this field, because someone planted a seed when they saw that we were like, particularly really involved student leaders, or, or just like, yeah, provided a lot of time and energy already from our positions as student leaders. Some of us came into the field, partially because we want them to be the professionals that we didn’t have, in our undergrad experience. Some of us came into the field because we wanted to be the professional that we did have in our undergrad experience. And all of those things, they they are valid, and they have their own purpose and your meaning making experience. But they’re all external. So really, like, when I’m asking myself in the mirror, like, what does Will want? Who does Will want to be? Like, I think that that answer, you know, doesn’t have to be right off the bat, oh, I want to be a student affairs professional. I’m at a higher education institution, because let’s be honest, most of us also didn’t learn about this field until maybe our junior or senior year. But it could be like, I know, I want I know that I want to make an impact on future generations of students. Does that necessarily mean college students doesn’t have to does that necessarily have to be at a college campus doesn’t have to either but I know that my like that that purpose is what aligns me with my student affairs career. And, and for me, it meets the things I like, what I’m good at what I love, what the world needs, and What I can be paid for? So, yeah, all started off there. And, yeah, for my colleagues here on this call, please feel free to chime in any of your thoughts.

Lisa Landreman
Yeah, thanks. Will, I worked with will on next gen and found that a really valuable way for us to think about engaging in a reflective process about what matters to us. And it doesn’t mean that you know that you want to be a student affairs professional for your entire life. But what’s the next step and does, you know, perhaps the values that you have and the priorities you have for your life align with the direction of a student affairs career if you’re considering investing in a master’s degree. So I found it really helpful in working with colleagues and and students who are considering the field.

Tiffany Davis
I would also agree and I think we, I am a previous Chair of the program of board and we also do a whole session during the Dungey Leadership Institute, that’s where all these photos are from different years of the DLR. But one of the things that we did is start with why and so we use the YouTube from Simon Sinek. And based on his book, start with your why. And I think that that’s another space of like, understanding all of those pieces. So I would just like retweet, you know, repost the whole idea of thinking about starting with why. And one thing that I will probably add is also like, what types of context are also to you and being reflective about who you are, because we got to be real with who we are like, all of those things can be really good. But if you’re not a person for small town, then you’re not going to be a person. And you don’t have to fit in that. Because what the field needs is we do need more folks who are willing to work in rural education and go to small town, you know, you we need people not to only want to work at Urban, large, research intensive institutions, we need folks and great folks to work in our community colleges, we need folks to go into working at for profit institutions. And so sometimes we have to also kind of have folks hold up mirrors and windows of opportunities for us to be able to say, what is what are our needs and where they are? So like, what types of contexts Do you thrive in, because sometimes we have narrow visions of what those contexts look like, and where we can show up in them. And then also places of like, some of those things could all be true. But for right now, the priority is family. All of those things about meeting needs that it is that for some people it needs to come down to my family needs me in Houston, Texas, so I will go to whatever program is in Houston, Texas, or my partner needs me at this point, or I need to escape all of those folks. And I need it, you know, and so I think also like your current circumstance, context, things that are real for us, also should be included, as well as some of these existential, philosophical and values oriented questions. And together, they really integrate to help someone to figure out their why and how they can move forward.

Lisa Landreman
Yeah, I’d also say that, we also know that you’re going to learn about the field and all the options when you’re in a master’s program, you should you’re not going to know everything. But it is important to do a little bit of research and understand the field. Before you’re going to invest in a master’s program, the time and financial commitment and emotional energy. And so understanding that the institution that you love or the position, you know, the leadership position that you got in it, you may not find a job initially in that when you graduate, or there are lots of other possibilities. And so if your focus is too narrow, you might not be able to work at your alma mater, and you come out or, or even maybe even stay in your city depending on what kind of if it’s only one institution in your city, because there might only be one person in that role that you’re looking for. And so meaning to consider that you might have to have some flexibility and again, know your parameters know, your Know your limits, doesn’t mean you have to move anywhere, but that you’re you might have to consider some flexibility in what you imagined that career in student affairs, at least initially would be. And it you might have seen your mentor have a position but there are lots of positions in between before you can get probably what their role is. And so doing a little research, talking to your mentors, talking to colleagues, and also regardless of the role you’re going to take there are some skills that are professional need that maybe as a student you didn’t see like learning how to work with students in distress or manage crisis. Some of and planning, that might not be what you wanted to do or why you went into student affairs. But if you work on a college campus today, you’re all going to be touched with that kind of work. And so recognizing the behind that behind the scenes work. And then I’d also say commitment to working with diverse students, all kinds of students, all generations, all cultural backgrounds, religious backgrounds, abilities, learning types, like you are going to be asked to create community sense of belonging provide service and educational opportunities for a diverse group of folks. And so being willing to think about doing your own learning and get experiences and worked with a variety of populations and being committed to that most institutions across the country are going to ask that of us. And that’s a value of our field. So those are just some examples, talking to mentors and other colleagues will help you discern is this is the field right for you. And that’s to stick your toe in for that master’s degree.

Heather Shea
Lisa, I’m going to stick with you for a moment. Because I do think that there’s some interesting presumptions we’re making right? Like we are assuming that a master’s degree is an essential degree for entry into Student Affairs, but as a vice president, what do you look for in people coming in? And does the choice of a master’s degree impact kind of what potential a person might have? So as people are thinking about selecting a program? How does somebody who’s in your, in your type of role think about a master’s degree selection processes?

Lisa Landreman
That’s a great question, because I certainly know getting a master’s degree it is a privilege, right? Like, let’s let’s just say that it costs time and money and energy, like we said before, and so it, there are transferable skills, there are folks that I’ve worked with some amazing professionals who did not have master’s degrees and Student Affairs who were learned on the job and Rose within the ranks. What I will say, though, is when I’m a vice president, when I have the competition is steep, I am looking for some people who have some baseline understanding of students and student development and the current needs of students. And that often comes from students who’ve worked in the classroom and learn and studied and grappled with contemporary issues in student affairs. That experience I’ve talked about of work. So it’s not just book knowledge, but experiences working with diverse student populations and different kinds of institutional types. I love it when I’ve worked with a student who’s, you know, had diverse experiences, I’ve worked at this institution, my undergrad, and this, my masters, and I did this internship here, because they’re bringing a variety of experiences to make sense for who are who our students are in our campus, not just my last institution, we did it like this that might not fit. But when you’ve had multiple experiences, in different varieties, there’s a way you’re pulling the best from all those experiences. And usually a master’s program is asking people to do field work and internships and have, you know, assistantships that provide that. And I think in a master’s program, you also are gaining a professional identity, that’s part of that socialization into the field, where you’re exposed to, you know, to professional associations, ACPA and NASA that you’ll hear a lot if you’re pursuing a degree, the American health personnel Association, and the National Association of Student Personnel Administrators, I’m sure will provide links, that though they’ve created some competencies for the field, and most master’s programs in student affairs or higher ed work, are asking masters students to do to study those to develop their own professional development plan to do internship or practicums that are showing where they have developed competency and thinking on those. And that’s often what I’m looking for people who are committed to continuing their learning that like when you your master’s degree, your learning isn’t done, but usually a master’s degrees, sparks that pursuit of their passion, and even getting some both generalist experience but maybe even an expertise, passion, that hopefully they’re going to pursue at my institution, right, that they’re gonna say, great, you love me, I’m gonna look to you to lead us in leadership. You’re not alone in doing that, but you might lead the way and you’ve gained the research skills and the networking skills and competencies in that that will move my institution forward. So sometimes that master’s degree is a proxy for some assumptions we make about getting those experiences. Certainly not every master’s program is the same as we’ll talk about. Certainly, you can get many experiences and exposure that are transferable. But I know that that’s what we say masters preferred. That’s what I’m looking for and hoping for. Yeah.

Heather Shea
Tiffany, as I think a little bit about the program, I mean, we’re talking a lot about experiences that we might have out of the classroom, but I mean, at the end of the day, this is a degree that requires See, courses? And you know, so talk a little bit about how do people who are considering different programs, consider the role of faculty and the faculty expectation program reputation rankings, you know, just came out in terms of decision making process. So how did somebody assess these factors effectively as a faculty member yourself?

Tiffany Davis
Oh, my gosh, yes. So this is year 11, for being a faculty member. And over nine of those, I was a program director for either a master’s program or a doctoral program, a Ph. D. program. And I would say there are big there are differences. And that’s the first place to start. If you’re looking for a master’s program. Typically, I will tell students, I’m like you want to have, you want to know who your faculty are going to be, who are going to be the folks that are going to be in the classroom with you. And if a program has two different programs, so if it’s a master’s, and they have a doctoral program, or they have certificates, or they have an undergraduate program, because there are some schools that have Undergraduate Degree Programs and Student Affairs, you want to know, one who are the faculty in the program, to how what is their commitment to serving the masters programs, because in some degree programs, there might be faculty members who only teach doctoral level courses. And there may be some that only teach masters level courses. And so but when we put you put our pictures out to the world, it’s like here, all 10 faculty members, although you will probably may not meet three or four of them in any of your classes, right. But that doesn’t mean that you might not be advised by them does not mean that you’re not in a community with them in terms of your program and everything. So I think that faculty expertise, wrote down a couple of things. And I said, there’s probably maybe three or four areas of kind of the factors. The first is the practitioner focus that you want. I knew that when I wanted to go to my master’s program, I really wanted a really practitioner oriented program. I wanted a strong assistantship, I want straw, I want require practicums. I wanted all of that. And so I looked for a program for faculty members who had worked in student affairs because I wanted to work with students with faculty members, who had been practitioners. And just like any part of the academy, you have faculty members that may or may not have spent any significant time working actually in a student affairs unit, especially depending on the focus of the graduate program. And so I wanted faculty members who had worked in the field. So my faculty members had worked in housing, they had worked in student life, they had worked, you know, they have done different things so that I knew that when they were bringing, they were coming into the classroom, they were going to be really focused on theory to practice. And that was really important to me the same when I went and got my doctorate degree from the University of Georgia, I still looked for a practitioner oriented program, but because I knew that this was a PhD, I needed a rousse a strong research methodological focus as well. So that’s the first thing Do you want a practitioner focus have the faculty members been practitioners before? The second is mentorship opportunities, and I say, looking at faculty, your faculty are going to oftentimes be we’re kind of frontline folks to our students. And so I, for me going to a master’s program, I didn’t choose a program where there were any black faculty members. And so and even when I went into my doctoral program, however, I am very intentional about that now of helping students if they want to see people who look like them, being a typically with any type of social identity, like do you want your faculty member? So that’s the question you have to sit with for yourself, what is the level of expectation or desire that you have for racial gender sexual identity concordance with your faculty members, for some people, because that doesn’t automatically mean there’s going to be a connection and in relationship, but for some people, the availability of that is is important. And so talking to faculty members about how they mentor students, what does it look like? What how do they engage with students both inside and outside of the classroom? Does the program are there faculty members involved in like their higher education, student associations or anything like that, like asking those types of questions, because that’s going to get you to get a feel of how faculty. The third thing is, thesis and research opportunities I heard will mention this about like looking at programs and do they have a comprehensive exam? Do they have a thesis option? Do they have a portfolio option, like what’s the culminating project? And so I remember when I was going, I just, I thought back well, it’s also been well over 20 years since I went to my graduate program, and so I remember back then Have you most programs had to do theses? And so I was like, oh, I want these. It’s optional. And so at the time Bowling Green was thesis optional. But I now have worked with and chair students, dissertation, theses master’s theses here at the University of Houston, because we had students who that was what drove them to our program, and that they had a faculty member who can help them and to be the chair of their feces project. So if you want a rich research environment, then you want to be looking at that in the faculty, and what are they working on? Do they involve their master’s students? Do you want that research mentorship, and that’s really tied to the next steps for where and I know where you talk a lot about planning and thinking. But it is really important, you don’t have to know the exact destination. But I really embrace an idea around equal finality, that there are multiple ways and routes to get to the same destination. But if you kind of have an idea, if you do some of that pre work of starting with why Where do you think you might want to go? Not a job title at a specific institution, but the round, you can think about your next step. So if you know that next steps might be faculty life, you might want to look at the faculty expertise in the thing that have around faculty development, do they have a strong Ph D program, that their training faculty like those might be some considerations around the faculty expertise in the presence. And the same way we’d like if you know that you want to eventually do like hire an adjacent work and work in a think tank, you might want to connect with faculty member who that was what they did before they became a faculty member or housing, or there are certain institutions that become well known for certain things like because they may have the the, let’s talk about like Rutgers, for example. Rutgers has the minority serving institution, center there, right. And so if anyone has an interest in working with minority serving institutions, that’s Rutgers program might be a really good fit, because you’re going to be more, you’re going to be closer to the action of a bunch of researchers and faculty members who are focused on that very idea. And so I think that that’s some of the areas that I would look with faculty. Now let’s talk about these ratings, though. So with the rating, there’s kind of two areas, right is like, there is the US News and World Report, as now, the Student Affairs academic lead, who I do a lot of the institutional and Institutional Effectiveness reports to me, I now am the person that gets to fill out those reports. And so now I see all of the, the the reasons why not everyone will ascribe to accepting only US News and World Report data because it does on some level, like recreate in, like buy into institutional kind of privilege, and dominance and all these kinds of things, right. So we know that all of those things kind of exists. If not, there are lots of articles you can read about it. But there’s also but there’s something to be said about these are programs that have traditionally like my doctoral program, it was consistently rated in high high ratings for being a top doctoral program, PhD program. I didn’t consider that as much because my master’s degree, there’s also what’s called street cred. There in in student affairs, like outside of the world, no one knows who Bowling Green State University is you will meet a couple of people that will know about a faculty. But if us talk to anyone in student affairs, and they and you say Oh, I’m a BG alum, people are like,

Heather Shea
Oh, Bowling Green.

Tiffany Davis
They know Bowling Green, were one of the oldest programs that has focused on student affairs like strong scholars have come out of it, students everything. And so we had street cred, we’re not in the US News and World Report. There are going to be some programs that such that do such great things to support students that aren’t going to be a US News and World Report. So I always say is like, top, go to info session, info sessions, talk to people that have been in the programs, get those kind of first, first insights from former students, former faculty, former staff members, all of those things to help you assess it in collaboration with looking at the faculty and asking questions, and go into the info sessions. If faculty are there, they’re gonna be able to answer questions as well. You gotta get a feel for it. There’s not there is no right program for anybody. There’s just some best fit. And I think that’s something that we don’t talk about enough in undergraduate. When you look at undergraduate admissions, they always talk about best fit philosophy and I and I try to attach that to graduate school. It’s just a best fit. There’s probably no perfect right place, but there are some places that will fit you better than others.

Heather Shea
Yeah. Thank you so much for that. So will you are as a practitioner, tell me a little bit about a lie. I mean career aspirations with particular programs strengths. And if you have any examples from your own experience of of choosing your program or colleagues that you work with who, who really looked at a particular program and their strength, and then that was tied to where they wanted to take their career.

Will L. Hsu
Yeah. So I think from trying to think like, where do I start with this question? So, in terms of how important is it for students to align their career aspirations with like a program strengths? I ultimately don’t think it is a necessity, but it can definitely be a pro. And so, so like, let’s break that down a little bit further. Every program generally has like, like a set of core core, core course requirements. And so those are going to be the things like your student development theory, your intro to Student to Student Affairs Administration, something, usually something along the lines of like research methods of organization and administration. And so those core requirements, sort of are, will give you a sense of what focus are like, what, what are, what are some of those strengths of that program. And then on top of that, there’s going to be elective requirements that you need to complete in order to meet the requirements of your degree. And the elective requirements are generally like more about your passion areas. And so at least I will say, like, in my grad programs experience, that is the frame of reference I’m going off of. And so for my program, like, my program was particularly strong in just like, administration within the field. Nowadays, I think it’s grown increasingly strong, with research and scholarship as well. And I think that, even though like I, I went to what I consider, like a very generalist type program, it had some unique course opportunities that that has been sort of what I’ve leveraged, in my field, in my, in my professional trajectory. So like, one of the core core courses for Binghamton’s program was law in higher education. That’s not a super common one that I’ve heard in any programs, I hear it more as an elective as, rather than a core. But, but particularly, even though, like right now, I think I’m in a place where I’m like, considering, oh, do I want to dig deeper into law education for like, my, my continual learning, that’s, you know, something totally different. But where it has played out for me, in serving my professional growth and how I’ve contributed to the institutions I worked at, is where I can take the lessons learned in that law class, or even in my counseling methods class, which was an elective and apply it to the responsibilities of my position such as, like crisis management, or, and like, particularly in crisis management, when parents come calling, and I gotta explain FERPA or, or we need to talk about like, institutional liability and like, what is my role as the crisis responder, in communicating with the appropriate colleagues at the institution to to make sure that we are in full compliance, legally as we support the student through like, whatever the incident is. And, and also, more recently, it has also shown up in how I serve as a referral agent and, and oh, referral agent to specifically our Student Disability Services Office with SDS and the American Americans with Disabilities Act. ADA for short, and how I how I work with art my colleagues in SDS to fulfill accommodations for our students as well, particularly those students who live in our residence halls. So so nothing I wouldn’t say like success stories in terms of nothing like grandiose but, but I do think that having some of this schooling, what helps me not only just Do something because the institution tells me to do it, but I know why I have to do it. And I think that why is also what helps to also break down the barriers for some of our students who like, sometimes get passed around from resource to resource to resource and they don’t always know the why, or like, or even parents, like, when I’m supporting, particularly those of like, where higher education is. I’m sorry, where like the students and the families that I’m supporting are particularly first generation college students. And so yeah, I think those are the main things that I have in my notes here. Where I think that ultimately, whatever program you choose, and, and you can determine how much you want it to align with your career aspirations. But if you just decide to go with something more general and you want to just explore, then that is also an option and, and what you graduate with doesn’t determine like where you go or where you end up. Because you always have the ability to engage in like career development in our field to leverage your experiences and your schooling, to like, to where you want to take it. Right.

Tiffany Davis
Can I Can I add one thing there, too, I feel like that. There is another part of that, that for some folks, it may be exactly what you want to do. Because let’s say, and I don’t know all the schools right now, either. So but I’m just gonna give an example. Like if you know, you want to be an academic advisor, you can go pretty much to any institution. As we said, There’s transferable skills. But we also know that Kansas State does a really good job with because they have a whole academic advising graduate certificate. And so there may be some very niche spaces that offer you have the opportunity for your career and your career aspirations. So like if you want to do academic advising, or if you wanted to do sports administration, there’s some places that offer certificates in that or if you know, you want to do research methodology, there’s some places that do that, or I E work. Or if you know that your career aspirations are you want to work in Fraternity and Sorority Life, you may choose a institution that their program strength might be that they have multiple, multiple graduate assistantships, and fraternity and sorority life because most places only have one, and they are hot tickets. And so that might be the thing that is so sometimes you do want to look at those programs strengths for your career aspirations, especially this goes into a broader conversation that I’m sure. Heather, you’re like, that’s a whole nother webinar about what does it mean to be a generalist versus

Heather Shea
Oh, my gosh, we have

Tiffany Davis
it being a generalist. Because I think to Will’s point is, like, is exactly how I approached it, because I wanted to be a generalist. But for those students who want to be specialists, some people are making decisions. I’m not going to that institution, because I have can’t have a fraternity and sorority like GA ship. And I’ve heard that if I don’t have a GA ship in fraternity and sorority, like, it’s hard for me to break into the field, or if I don’t have a, you know, so I think that, again, looking at what your unique context and situation is can be really helpful to determine if you need to be more niche and look at program strengths in that way. versus not.

Lisa Landreman
Yeah, I mean, this goes without saying the only other thing I would add to this very rich, you know, examples is I think it matters. The I think what we’re saying is your practical experience matters. It can’t you know, if you don’t are coming from having work experience in high res student affairs are either coming straight from your undergrad or transferring without experience. To make it in a current student affairs. It’ll be much easier and you’ll be have a leg up if you have card. Looking at a program. We’re having a rich practicums field work, internship, assistantships are options. And I think those options are made that much easier. If there’s a connection between the Division of Student Affairs and the program. I was shocked a little bit of how there are institutions where there isn’t a lot of collaboration like that you apply for a program and then on your own, you’re going to apply for assistance to don’t talk in our or they just because they’re maybe pulling not just from student affairs, but some big programs. They’re pulling from counseling and social work and Student Affairs. And so it’s, you know, you’re competing, you know, writ large with other programs. Sometimes it’s, look, we’re not going to let you in unless you have an assistantship areas that sounds actually don’t want to go to a master’s port. If I don’t have an assistantship because I will just have a credential without experience from where I was with limited experience. So yeah, right. And that didn’t scare me. I knew that was a benefit, right. And so they worked really closely to try to find or sometimes even create opportunities when they’re like, Wow, well, you know, you’re interested in that. Let me connect you with someone, someone else. Right. I know, colleagues in Indiana where that happened. So I think understanding that and we’re a program can help streamline that the day that you’re, you know, you might have to interview for an assistantship, and they also have opportunities for you to meet the faculty. And a lot of that is done virtually now. But if you I would say, we can visit that would be a great idea. But if you came, it was virtually that they’re helping make those connections or coordinating timelines for assistantships. I think that says something. First of all, it makes your your your selection easier. But it says something I think about the kind of experience you’re going to get on that campus. In the second semester or in year two, sometimes people want to change assistantships, you know that you think you’re going in and going to be in fraternity sorority life and you realize that a new passion so your second year, you want a different assistantship, you know, is that frowned upon is that happened? Those are the kinds of, I think assumptions we would make that those are connected. And I think as little insider, just tip that you might want to check that out to your advantage.

Heather Shea
This has been such a phenomenal conversation today. I’m so grateful for everyone’s contributions. And I want to ask one more question before we get to final thoughts, because I do think we are in a in a current, like maybe a tipping point in terms of what is in the landscape, what’s on the horizon? And as you think about like emerging trends facing higher education, but specifically facing our field, you know, how important is it that we consider that in our graduate school selection process? And I guess the other piece to that, and Lisa, you kind of spoke to this actually all Have you spoken to this? Like, are there specific skills and knowledge that are becoming increasingly valuable in the field as we are interacting with, you know, students with different types of backgrounds and experiences or, or students who have, you know, whether it’s, it’s they have are coming from different socioeconomic backgrounds, and, you know, we have an increasing homeless student population on our campus, you know, what is what are those kinds of skills and knowledge experiences that are becoming increasingly valuable? So, Lisa, I’ll have you kind of kick us off on this, we’ll talk about this, and then we’ll go to final thoughts.

Lisa Landreman
Yeah, you know, I might even start with skills that are about kind of our own self management skills. I mean, it’s it’s tough work. So you’re, you’re naming things like homelessness, and, you know, sexual violence and racial tensions like those that’s deep, heavy, heavy work. And so I think more and more, where people have done their own work and their own well being their own, able to have networks outside of work, how to balance stress, how to manage, you know, it’s a whole nother conversation about what is what is work life, balance, existence, Student Affairs, but where you get to, you know, manage your priority. So that’s administrative skills, that’s also just emotional intelligence work. So all of those are skills, right, that self management work that I think we think you’ll develop that over time as an adult, certainly we all do, right? As martial expert, all the hotels and stuff, obviously, we evolved right later in our late 20s. But, but I would say more and more, you will be more successful if you are honing those, prioritizing your self care and your self management and those strategies, so that you can have the attention and the energy and the wellbeing to do that we’re going to take care of yourself before you can kind of give to others and that’s you know, that’s a that’s a skill and certainly where we are knowledgeable and current on higher education issues. So you named like, you know, food insecurity and house lessness. I mean that some of that is regionally dependent, you know, and environmentally dependent. But when you’re thinking about where you want to work, knowing what the current issues and town gown relationship tensions are staying abreast and having curiosity about the community that you’re a part of, I think it’s something we don’t talk enough about and where your students might be coming from. If they’re commuting students, or regionally. I’m learning a lot about living in Oregon. I’ve never lived in Oregon these last three years. And so Oh, and I seem so when I lived on the East Coast, there’s a lot of things that, you know, they don’t tell you that necessarily in graduate school, but you are a member of the cunexus and institutional community, but there is a certain expectation of being a contributing member to your larger community, particularly as you rise in the field, you are representative of the institution and and I think that those are kind of skills, sort of ways of being ways of knowing that I think are worth considering, and, and developing How do I get engaged, civically engaged in my community, those kinds of things? In addition to I think I named crisis intervention crisis. I named those and this

Heather Shea
Will, what would you share?

Will L. Hsu
Yeah, I think, from where I chime in is, like, when I think back to my grasp, to my grad program, there were things that were emerging at that time that, like many of us had just recently experienced in undergrad. So we’re able to, like bring those questions and tried to draw those connections in our like, class sessions, or in our in our assistantship, and internship experiences, where I, in terms of like emergence, emerging, factoring in emerging emerging trends and challenges. When selecting a program, I feel like, if that is a particular passion area for you, then you can always look at like what are the some of the special specializations of the different faculty members who like some of those courses. But in terms of like, specific skills, or knowledge areas that are becoming increasingly valuable in these fields. In my mind, I feel like digital, how we engage college students in like digital spaces coming increasingly valuable, and particularly how we leverage technology. And also, like, how we are, as a society are also recognized, reckoning with the ways that accessibility continues to, like develop and evolve, for how we support all of our college students, so that they have like what they need in order to be successful. So those are some of the things that come to my mind, Dr. Tiffany, anything for you.

Tiffany Davis
I think for mine, as a new master students, I really just look for students who are teachable and are open to exploring the field because most people come to the field with a very specific engagement pattern, a very specific reason, region, reason for wanting to be in our field, but our field is so expansive. And so I really like to hear that incoming masters students are like, this is what prompted my interest. But here’s all the things I’m excited to learn about. I’m excited to learn about all of these different classes, I’m excited to do an internship, I don’t know where I may pick something up. Like I think that remaining teachable and remaining open to the expansive options is a really good because so often now we have this thing where so many people feel like they have to be so prepared. And I’m like, do what you need to do in your undergraduate education classes that you’re keeping your GPA up, you’re doing, you know, but that’s not everyone’s story. Some students come into Student Affairs, but they had to work. So that’s their only involvement when they were in college. And they want to be that for somebody else. But they were a working student. So they’re not going to have a long list of accolades, achievements and stuff like that. But they were a working student who committed to their family and to themselves to make it through college. And so I always like to level set of like, we’re not looking for a superstar Rockstar, we’re looking for someone who wants to engage this experience. And so that’s generally what the trend is. And I will say a challenge very quickly, is it. I work in Texas, and there are several states where people are like, I don’t want to live or work there. And so I think it is important to also still because they’re still good work, and we need great people to be in this state to be able to serve as the activist the, you know, the lobbyists, the, you know, to help and support because while we have a lot of issues, we still have students that represent those identities that need support, and safety and space, people holding space for them. And so there’s a need for us to be in these spaces and also to be well, right. And so I think there’s a lot of opportunities so there are ways to check Challenge into opportunities for people that are up for that and that use the community and not just your program as an opportunity for you to find community and kinship as well.

Heather Shea
Thank you so much for that. Because I think that’s a really important kind of point to, to emphasize right, that you know, where you go doesn’t necessarily mean where you’ll end up. And we have folks all over the country, institutions of higher education all over the country. Thank you all so much for the great conversation today. As you know, our podcast is called Student Affairs NOW, we always kind of end with a quick summary of what you’re pondering, questioning, excited about, or troubled by now. And so, Tiffany, we’re gonna stick with you what, what are your final thoughts?

Tiffany Davis
My final thoughts is that I’m just really excited to see a new newer generations of Student Affairs leaders, and, you know, I’m now on an Associate Dean roll. So um, that is close to a been missing my my programs for the last year. And I am just so excited, because I’m back into the everyday frontline work working with students. And I’m just very excited for the next generation. And so I just hope that everyone’s listening and watching is just open to reaching out to different folks find out more expand find your community, because I believe that this is a great career that offers a lot of different vantage points in different directions within the role, so I’m just very excited about it.

Heather Shea
Right. Thank you, Tiffany. Will.

Will L. Hsu
I think I’m particularly excited about seeing these future generations of Student Affairs master students and, and I really hope I am excited to hear, like, what their reason for being is and how it connects to their purpose. So I think that that it will be a very fun icebreaker question on the first day of grad school.

Heather Shea
Yeah, I love it. I love it. And Lisa,

Lisa Landreman
you know, I’m getting really excited about really emphasizing our role as Student Affairs educators. And that’s trickling down into even the students we’re working with. We’ve talked about crisis, we’ve talked about, you know, the van planning, community building, and all those things are important, but we contribute to the educational lives of students. And I think sometimes we’re not seen as that. And I’m excited about what we’re doing lots of transformative work. And in many campuses are on a curricular approach to our work as a division of student affairs, that is thinking about what are our learning outcomes that are consistent with our institutional mission or divisional mission? How are we? How are we having those in mind and then developing strategies that meet those needs, and it means we have to maybe let go of some things and do some things differently and creatively, and using our master’s degree and our educational background and experience to create new educational opportunities. And I’m watching our division get really energized by that possibility and connecting nationally on those. And so I think it’s an exciting time, as I’m watching colleagues across the country, revitalize that educational mission of our of our work, and I think it’s an exciting time in student affairs as that’s kind of catching on. Yeah.

Heather Shea
And as folks are considering careers in student affairs, I hope this episode has kind of sparked your interest in we’re going to drop a whole bunch of links into our show notes today. Thank you for all of your time. Today, we do have a part two to this conversation, which will focus on some of the really specific logistics about grad school applications and, and that kind of thing, which we will be offering shortly. So thank you all three of you for your contributions today and also sending heartfelt appreciation to the dedicated behind the scenes work of our producer Nat Ambrosey. Thank you Nat for making us look and sound great. And thanks also to the sponsor of today’s episode. Symplicity is a global leader in student services technology platforms with state of the art technology that empowers institutions to make data driven decisions specific to their goals. A true partner to the institution Symplicity supports all aspects of student life, including but not limited to, Career Services and Development, Student Conduct and well being student success and accessibility services. So to learn more, you can visit simplicity.com or connect with them on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn. Please take a moment to visit our website and click on sponsors to learn more. And if you are a new professional or thinking about grad school person, if you go to our website, you can also subscribe to our weekly newsletter which will help keep you apprised of that other episode as well as look at our archives, which kind I’ve run the gamut of all the different aspects of the field thanks again to everybody I’m Heather Shea thanks for our listeners and everybody who’s watching have a great week everyone.

ACPA NextGen Institute: https://myacpa.org/event/nextgen-23/

NASPA Undergraduate Fellows Program (NUFP): https://www.naspa.org/division/naspa-undergraduate-fellows-program-nufp

The Oshkosh Placement Exchange: https://www.theope.org/ 

Ikigai: Japanese Philosophy to Inspire your Life & Career: https://www.betterup.com/blog/what-is-ikigai