Raul Leon
So I think one of the ways in which we can help institutions is to provide evidence that allows them to understand, examine and compare, what can CDOs do, that is impact by the resources that is impacted by the structure that is impacted by how the institution is positioned? And also that is impacted by the characteristics that the CDOs themselves bring to the positions?

Heather Shea
Welcome to Student Affairs NOW the online learning community for Student Affairs educators, I’m your host, Heather Shea. Today we are exploring the role of diversity leaders on college and university campuses. While diversity leaders exist at all administrative levels and ranks across both academic and student affairs. Today’s episode will focus on all of these roles, but with specific attention to the chief diversity officer or CDO. As somebody who works in higher education in a di unit. I can’t wait for this conversation. And I am so grateful to the three of you who’ve joined me today. Before I introduce my guests, I’m going to share a little bit more about our podcast and today’s sponsors. Student Affairs NOW is a premier podcast and learning community for 1000s of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We hope you’ll find these conversations make a contribution to the field and our restorative to the profession. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays Find us at StudentAffairsnow.com on YouTube or anywhere you listen to podcasts. This episode is brought to you by Stylus, visit styluspub.com and use promo code SANow for 30% off and free shipping. This episode is also sponsored by vector solutions formerly everfi the trusted partner for 2000 Plus colleges and universities. Vector solutions is the standard of care for student safety, well being and inclusion. So stay tuned to the end of the podcast for more information about each of our sponsors. As I mentioned, I’m your host Heather Shea My pronouns are she her and hers and I am broadcasting from the ancestral traditional and contemporary lands of the three fires confederacy of Ojibwe, Ottawa and Potawatomi peoples, also home to the campus of Michigan State University where I work at. MSU resides on land seeded in the 1819 Treaty of Saginaw. So, welcome to the three of you to the podcast. I’d like to start with just brief introductions, tell us your name, role institution, pronouns, etc. And I’m going to start with Kelli. Welcome, Kelli.

Kelli Perkins
Greetings. My name is Kelli Perkins, I use she her pronouns. I actually, a year ago, came out of the higher ed space and into the K 12 space. And so I currently serve as the dean of student life and culture so think VPSA, but at a high school, at an independent all girls day and boarding school in Northern Virginia, about 12 miles outside of Washington, DC. Prior to my time, at the Madeira school, I was in higher ed, I’ve served at a number of institutions and a number of regions, largely in residential life, but also have experience with First Year Experience orientation, Student Leadership Programs and Student Conduct.

Heather Shea
Thank you so much for joining. I think in our pre conversation, you were like, is it okay, if I do it? I’m like, absolutely. We need people who have bridged that K 12 and higher ed divide often. So thank you for being here. Raul, welcome.

Raul Leon
Hi, good afternoon. I am very excited to be here. My name is Raul Leon, and I am joining me today from the University of Wisconsin Madison. I returned to Madison after 11 years living in Michigan. So I hope the day is clear and sunny in Michigan across the lake enter.

Heather Shea
Not today.

Raul Leon
Not bad. Yeah. My role now is I’m the Assistant Vice Provost for Student Engagement and scholarship programs. So we manage a number of identity and talent programs for students across the university. And in my role, I am very glad to be serving students in the Division of Diversity, Equity and educational achievement.

Heather Shea
Great, thank you so much for joining. I appreciate the shout out to Michigan but also over across the lake. So Brighid welcome, Brighid. Sorry, I’m mispronouncing your name again.

Brighid Dwyer (Ajunwa)
No problem I yeah, I’m Brighid Dwyer (Ajunwa). I use both names. I use she her pronouns and I am joining from the and otherwise, our institution here is you the University of Pennsylvania. I serve as the Vice Dean for Diversity, Equity and Inclusion. I’m the in the School of Arts and Sciences and I’m the first person in this role. So UPenn has an interesting constellation of 12 schools and there are senior diversity officers and just about every single one of those those school So I’m excited to, to be one of them. And you know, throughout my career, I’ve had an opportunity to work both on the academic side as well as the Student Affairs side. And so this is a exciting opportunity that I’ve taken on about 10 months ago. And I get to do a little bit about so working a lot on faculty development, helping to support staff as well as undergraduate and graduate students, alumni. And, and postdocs do. So glad to be here.

Heather Shea
Thank you so much, Brighid. It’s nice to have you here. Another member of the big 10 I think, are we in the big 10? Together? I think we are.

Brighid Dwyer (Ajunwa)
We’re in the Ivy League alone. So you know, I still say Go Blue.

Heather Shea
There you go. There you go. And Raul, also big 10. I know there’s some sports people out there, but you know, all these things. But today’s episode actually features these three authors from this book, becoming a diversity leader. So we’re going to take a bit of a different approach, and have the chapter authors talk about their individual experiences and stories. I particularly really appreciated this book as it was divided into three parts understanding becoming and doing. And so we’re going to kind of explore all three of those sections. So beginning with understanding ground rule, in your chapter, you talk and you give a bit of an overview about the complexity of the role of the CDO or senior diversity officer or chief diversity officer. Can you talk a little bit more about how positions like this are situated on campuses? You know, what kinds of work does this type of position do? And, in general, what do we need to know about this role before we move on to having a broader conversation about it today?

Raul Leon
Absolutely, I think, once again, thank you for the invitation. And one of the things that I think might be worth mentioning is that when I started exploring this topic, was about 2010. And this ended up being a topic of my dissertation. So at that point, as you might imagine, CDOs work precedent, higher education, but what has been what was written about it was not as available or not as many publications. So a lot of the my thinking into the process came from really exploring, what do these folks do? How do we come up with a definition? How do we come with a better understanding? So when I saw the call for this proposal, I found the fit in that the idea of thinking about the role was one in which I felt compelled to write about before the two sections of the book. So thinking about the CDO, I think the sentiment today is very similar to what it was 10 years ago that scholars, practitioners or institutions or the public are captivated by the work of the CDO, and in sometimes they really have curiosity about the role thinking about can these folks transform higher ed? Can these folks be a change agent, so I think like the mystifying identity or nature of the CDO is still captures folks in the field. But also, I think, today, we have evidence that presents that CDOs actually can in fact, lead institutions in many ways. But those many ways in which once again, adds complexity to understanding the role as to how institutions distinguish themselves from one another, and how CDO roles might be different from roles at different institutions. One thing that I would like to speak about is that we cannot forget the CDs cannot alone, assume the entire responsibility for diversity, equity and inclusion efforts. And in fact, one of the main aspects of the work of the CDO that I touch upon the chapter as to whether they do today is that they are or they bring a sense of congruence to the environment to initiatives to the work and to the institutional goals and diversity plans. My chapter, in essence, what it does is it revisits key concepts that sort of were the foundation for me to understand this role. And having had the opportunity to consult with a number of institutions or speak with a number of diverse leader. These are components that while now they’ve been in the field for a while, they continue to really be challenging as institutions picture. How do we approach to do this work, and it can range from were appointed in the first CDO as my colleague just shared, or we have had CDOs for many years. We’re thinking about redesigning the position. So my chapter touches upon and what lessons are of like, we have learned about the CDO and its nature, what we what have we learned about institutions and how they position or create a context for the work of the CDO. I also talk a little bit about what have we learned about how we go about designing a CDO position, and also I conclude the chapter presenting have evidence of information about the strategies that CDOs can implement and execute, which to my perspective is something that was missed on the field sort of position in an argument that explicitly says, these are some of the actions strategies, day to day activities that CDOs engage with, in the role.

Heather Shea
Such a complex role, and definitely, I think, one where a lot of responsibility is housed. Sara Ahmed, and her book, on being included, discusses the ways that sometimes institutions institutionalize that the word diversity, right as a way of kind of moving that into a space and acknowledging it, but how do we make sure in your opinion, how do we make sure that the CDO role isn’t just symbolic or performative? In in kind of the conception and then as it gets into the actions?

Raul Leon
No, absolutely. One of the things that was enticing about this chapter and they will Lucien of knowledge about the CDO is that folks, from my perspective, actually moved from a theoretical symbolic understanding of the CDO to a practice oriented. And I think the chapter does that, I think, to my knowledge is the first book to bring together a lot of the stories from diversity leaders in which they can tell in each chapter, what do they engage with every day. So to conclude my chapter, one of the things that I wanted to add, I devoted a section specifically talking about the roles of the CDO, and this includes roles, such as being an educator, being in a strategic planner, being a communicator, being a recruiter, but also being a symbolic leader. So that precise, I guess, contribution, what it does is, it highlights the aspects that are very symbolic to the leader that go hand in hand with the work that the CDO does, but it also highlights all the other activities that are not just symbolic. They’re not just something that institutions do to protect themselves, but rather, can be enacted daily by this person not only doing this work, but leading this work, coordinating his work supporting this work. So I think one of the ways in which we can help institutions is to provide evidence that allows them to understand, examine and compare, what can CDOs do, that is impact by the resources that is impacted by the structure that is impacted by how the institution is positioned? And also that is impacted by the characteristics that the CDOs themselves bring to the positions?

Heather Shea
Yeah, that’s a really good point. What Would either of the other two of you add to this in terms of what do we need to understand about the CDO role or diversity leaders in general?

Brighid Dwyer (Ajunwa)
Well, I think that I’ll start I think, well, Raul, gave a really excellent framing, to really begin this conversation. I love what what you said Raul about, you know, the CDO can’t do it alone. Right? I think that that’s it cannot be one person making transformative, change it to really, we have to consider how we’re talking about diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, you know, justice, accessibility, all of those pieces, as responsibilities of everybody within our organization. So we can’t rely just on on one person to do to do all of the work, right. And so I think it’s great when you get teams and people thinking about the multitude of ways in which they’re infusing a variety of perspectives into the work they’re doing. So, and for me, I always, you know, I, I also really focus a lot on that word diversity. So people are no diversity, we’re gonna we’re gonna do the diversity thing or like, diversity. Let’s get specific. We cannot just talk broadly about diversity. And a single person is not diverse, right? So I think we have the shorthand. So you know, what you’re talking about, in terms of being a communicator, right, really spoke to me. So we have to be clear communicators, what are we talking about? We can’t define or make change, if we’re not clearly articulating, you know, what the challenge is, or what our metrics are. So we can say we want to become a more diverse unit or more diverse department. But what does that mean? Are we talking about more women in the sciences? Are we talking about having more, you know, faculty that, that identify as LGBTQIA and we talking about, you know, infusing, you know, curriculum that really is speaking to a variety of different perspectives. And so I think that to me, is really the work right, that is, that is what it means to truly infuse and to be a part of like this, this really broad conversation around, you know, equity and justice and diversity. It has to be quite broad and it doesn’t mean that everybody’s doing the same thing, right. So, you know, as I say, I think what’s appropriate for an undergraduate student population is not necessarily going to be appropriate for a grad population, or it’s not going to be the same conversation you’re having with your staff on campus. And so being able to, I think, pivot and shift in ways that you’re talking effectively, and not just talking, but you’re actually putting into action plans that makes sense for the different elements and the constituents within your organization. I think it’s critically important.

Kelli Perkins
I think, as I’m listening to Brighid, and thinking about where roles started, in speaking about his chapter to talk about language, right, how are we defining what we’re doing right in the space that we’re serving in? And with that diversity leaders certainly cannot do that work in and of themselves, right. In order to get buy in, right, we have to really ground ourselves in community, right in the community that we specifically serve. Right? I think that that is what not grounding ourselves where we are, is what makes this work particularly difficult and can get us into spaces where it feels like we’re just talking, right, or CDO is just a figurehead. Because we get so aspirational, right? Again, role really talked about that language piece, or I didn’t, how are we defining things at the start, that we don’t have, and are not able to cultivate spaces where we have shared definitions shared understanding of not only what the work in is, is and its challenges, but what we’re even talking about, it can really be an uphill battle.

Heather Shea
Yeah, that’s I think that’s a really great point. I know, at Michigan State, I think the first thing our CDO did in outlining our strategic plan was, these are the words and this is the definitions. And this is what we mean by those definitions. So when you refer to it later, you’ll understand kind of how those initiatives are framed. So I think in the second section Bridgid, you wrote about becoming becoming a senior diversity administrator, and I’d love to hear some key points from your own story. What drew you to this field? And how has over time, I know you’re new to your role here. But you know, inevitably, you’ve been in the field for a while, how has that changed? And how have your motivations changed? From where you are now?

Brighid Dwyer (Ajunwa)
Yeah, that’s, I mean, I feel like you know this for quite a while, but you know, I’ll say, I think I really, I came from a family of educators. And so I think that that’s where it began, and they give a lot of credit to, you know, to where I’m from all, you know, wrap the West Coast, so good, California. But really, you know, and I talked about this in the chapter, I think that where we begin in life is really formative in terms of who we are and where, and I guess, who we become later in life. And so for me, you know, I was born into a single parent family. In the Bay Area, my mom identifies as white, my dad’s black, and my mom is a white woman decided that she needed to stay in Oakland and raise her, you know, her biracial child, that really having a lot of conversations around race, having a lot of conversations around, you know, religion, having conversations about ability, all of these things are really important to her. She’s from Chicago, she could have easily gone home and raised me, you know, with with the, with the Irish family, but she made this really intentional choice. And so, you know, for me, a lot of this really starts with my upbringing. So you know, having conversations about what it was, I was also a swimmer. So having a lot of conversations about what it meant to be one of few if like, only, you know, people of color in a swimming community, you know, conversations about, you know, the Rodney King riots, what it was like to go to, you know, a private school, kind of like the one that Kelli is, is that right now, I imagine what those dynamics were in terms of, you know, race and class and all those different components. And so, you know, I think probably, I would imagine, probably, like my colleagues here on the call, as you know, high schooler as a college person, I had no idea this was a career, like, I didn’t know.

Brighid Dwyer (Ajunwa)
And so I just, I think, for me, it was really just kind of one foot in front of the other it was, you know, kind of listening to the conversations that were happening. It was being active in the conversations, it was, you know, as a student athlete in college. You know, I was I was sort of organizing with other student athletes, and we were asking, you know, well, how come the football team gets, you know, all these jerseys but you know, our swim team, we get one swimsuit, and it’s see through it, that’s like, gender issues, there is income issues, right. There’s a whole lot of things going on here. So I think a lot of my journey really, is this sense of curiosity, and it’s really rooted in a sense of equity. And not just necessarily about my own situation, but really looking for others and saying, hey, you know, that that, you know, I’ve heard the story of somebody else So that that’s not making sense to me, it might not be the whole story, but, you know, help me understand what’s, you know, what’s going on here? And why, like we can do better. You know, that’s that situation is not great. So I think, you know, for me, that was sort of what initially led me into kind of my early career, and I thought that I was gonna have a, I think, initially, I thought I was going to have a career as a swim coach, and a and a teacher. And you know, that I think there was a period of my life where I thought I was going to be in college athletics. And then, you know, I think that it was it was the conversations that continue to come up, it was my, you know, it was my exposure in grad school to talking about equity and looking at access. You know, some of some of the other work that I’ve done, and the research I’ve conducted has been around minority serving institutions. And while I, you know, I didn’t attend one, or I guess I technically attended one, because UCLA is now in a PC, but at the time was not that didn’t designation did not exist. But really looking at the ways in which different institutional types can provide tremendous opportunity. And access was really I think, what brought me in, and, you know, then it worked in multicultural affairs. And I’ve been fortunate to have a lot of mentors throughout my life that I think I’ve just, again, been able to ask these questions, and just to kind of, you know, follow that curiosity, and people say, like, oh, you should you should look at this opportunity, or have you considered that? So I think mentorship is a big part of it, I think, you know, following you know, the field and just kind of really looking at some of the research. You know, I think that I think Raul’s chapter talks a lot about David Williams and Katrina Wade, Golden’s work. And I think that was really foundational. And in really kind of setting the stage is, you know, one of the one of the first books, it’s really kind of taking a bunch of information and talking about the strategy around chief diversity officers and the ways in which we’re implementing diversity plans. So yeah, I think that it’s been, it’s been really interesting to see the ways in which I, you know, shifted, I think I said in my introduction, that I’ve worked on both the academic side, as well as the Student Affairs side, and I’ve learned so much by going back and forth in my teaching classes. And, you know, I think that, like I said, I feel very lucky to be in this position, I’m now because I’ve get to utilize a lot of the different experiences I’ve had, both on the Student Affairs side, as well as, as well as on the academic side. And so I think this idea about becoming is that in our chapter, we talked about, you know, our journeys, and the stories and sort of some of the pivotal moments that happened and kind of led us into these different these different places. My This is myself and my colleague LaTonya. But I think we also discussed that becoming is something that is continual, you know, in some ways, we were inspired a little bit by Michelle Obama’s book, right? And this idea that you’re never done with becoming, you’re constantly evolving, the the, the CDO role has evolved so much, we’re evolving with it. And so I think that’s the idea about becoming need to be open to learning and so are both our early experiences and form how and who we become later in life, but that we’re not done. We’re not a finished product. We’re constantly becoming and reinventing and evolving with the rules.

Heather Shea
I think one of the parts of your chapter that really spoke to me, and maybe maybe it’s because I’m just coming off of having had COVID, or it’s the beginning of the school year kind of rush, but you have a section called becoming tired, kind of the, the balancing the act of giving versus a burnout, and also kind of the ways that we continue to refill, you know, our energy for this work, which requires a lot. Can you talk a little bit more about the ways you balance your own needs, and also attend to the needs of your campus and to others?

Brighid Dwyer (Ajunwa)
Yeah, no, I think that’s, that’s a really, it’s a really tough question. And I think one that everybody struggles with me, particularly, you know, the beginning and the end of the year in particular, you know, for me, I think it was there was really this sort of pivotal moment that I reflect on, and I talked about it also in the chapter, where, you know, I had, I had three small children, and, you know, I was working probably 40 50, not 40 50 60 hours, you know, I was teaching a class I would go to work at, you know, nine o’clock in the morning, and then I would teach a class and I was done at 9pm. And I remember I was meeting is trying to advise a student group, and we realized that the only time that we had available mutually to meet about something that was pretty time sensitive, and that sort of involved, a multitude of, you know, administrators and sort of some sensitive issues was like 930 at night. And, and we met and I was grateful to be able to give that advice and time to the students. But I was also left reflecting you know, I’m not at home, you know, I have three kids. How am I’ve been good to them, what burden is this putting on my partner? And how do I, how do I write this? Because this is this is not okay. And so it’s not easy. But I will say that, you know, I’ve had mentors, and I think, you know, LaTonya and I talk about this a lot in our chapter that and I’d say, I think she’s been really been a mentor for me as well about creating some boundaries about saying, No, I think for so long. A lot of people in dei work have always said yes, because we’re looking for a seat at the table, you know, oh, we’re, you know, we’re not invited, because, you know, you’re that gender, that race or, you know, whatever it might be. And so you say, when you get the invitation, say yes, and say yes, constantly. And I think now we’re at a place where we don’t have to say yes, all the time, you know, there’s a lot more critical awareness and thinking, and infusion of DEI issues into everyday workings of universities. And so it’s learning to say, yes, but not right now. It’s learning to say, No. And this is why, and using that no, very strongly and strategically, in particular ways. And I know, other people have said this before, you may have heard this, but you know, your yes is only as strong as your no. And so those are some different things that I tried to continue to remember, you know, practically, I try not to send emails, you know, too late at night to my colleagues, even if I’m working on a project, I still use a delay, you know, the delays end on on Outlook, I will try not to send emails over the weekend, because I believe in that. And I think that, for so long. For me, I’ve had great mentoring, I mentioned that, you know, I’ve had really, really wonderful mentors. And I also think that some of the mentoring I got was the constantly saying, yes, and seeing people get sick and burnout, and you know, need to go on long term disability and, you know, have medical procedures and, and there, there are links there, there, there are very strong medical links and studies that talk about the connection between stress and poor health. And that’s real, that’s very real. And so I’ve learned to bound in different kinds of ways. I think, at the beginning and the end of the year, I may let that go a little bit, a little bit more, because it’s just really busy. But I tried to write that ship. And so I you know, I even this week, I was recognizing that as like, I’ve been doing a lot lately, I need to make sure that I’m making clear decisions so that I you know, I have that rest to be able to reflect and and do that strategy work and not just, you know, quickly respond to things that are happening.

Heather Shea
Other thoughts from either of the other two of you on this concept of the coming or on the idea of burnout? And how do you kind of keep your energy going, when when you’re trying faced with all of these different decisions and rolls?

Kelli Perkins
I think that one of the things that I’ve been thinking about, as I, I am on medical leave quarterly from my from my job for the burnt out, is definitely burning the case, the full candle, not at both, it’s just the candle for the last year, which I think, you know, COVID has, you know, holding everyone’s COVID anxieties and things in my role definitely did not help. And so one of the things I’ve been thinking about, as I’ve been trying to figure out, okay, how do I re rebalance? Right, when I return to work in a couple of weeks. And I think that if I am trying to do diversity work, right, and I’m trying to embody that, it is not consistent, right, with my own Social Justice believes for me to burn myself at all ends, right? Particularly, I think about that I work with high schoolers now. And so I feel like the burden is even larger, in some way. Or watch, right? You’re still young enough that they are watching me there watching what I do, they’re showing up, they go to class, and they tell, you know, teachers will Miss Perkins. Right, and we believe her because we see her living, what she speaks about living the work. And so if that is the case, then it’s even more important, right? That I’m taking care of myself. And knowing that we started off talking about Raul’s chapter and the fact you can’t do this alone. Right. And so it’s true, right? How do I particularly right as a black woman, because I think that identity, right? And that notion of saying yes, and trying to get buy in definitely plays heavily into this conversation. But how do I really take on some in a radical way, right? That that’s saying no, right? I’ve been practicing. Even you know, saying no, and then if so that I can give myself time, right, maybe going back and thinking about something and then oh, You know what, maybe actually I could do this and I, but I can do or I can only do this under these circumstances they going back right to give people a win. But I think that no is a strategy, right, for self care. And you just you can’t do this work, you can’t talk social justice and then run yourself into the ground, right? Because that is super capitalistic. And at the end of the day, I will not do for free or less than what I do it for.

Heather Shea
Yeah, thank you so much. I think that that really speaks to me as well. Raul, what would you what would you add?

Raul Leon
Yeah, I think first, I do want to honor the perspectives that the two or their folks have shared, because I think being healthy to be able to lead both our work and in your personal life is key, and important. And sometimes it’s a hard lesson that some of us have to learn when we are in those spaces, right. But I think one aspect that I can reflect upon the theoretical background that I have familiarized myself with is that CDOs today are also coming from places in which they have been more formalized in a way that diversity training is now a pattern which David sort of acquainted with, I think like, when you look at the pathway to the CDO or pathway to become a diversity leader, you can find some pathways in which there might be folks that access leadership positions, and then became diversity officers, because they were highly ranked faculty or highly ranked administrators, you might have other folks that, you know, were in the field for several years, and were Diversity Advocates. So therefore, this position become appealing. But Damon in a piece recently, not so recently noted that there is despair in which now we have folks that have been trained in strategic diversity leadership, they have occupied positions in student affairs that, you know, they have rose to the ranks, but they also been familiar with the language, the content, the scholarship, and they’ve been trained as diversity, change makers, or diversity transformation agents. And they’re very familiar with the literature, the books, and what it takes to do the work. So I think as to how we look at the evolution of the CDO, we may think that we are now sort of enjoined to having candidates that will bring a really strong expertise, not only in the practical aspect, but have been formally trained to potentially be a chief diversity officer. So that’s one aspect that I think, is there and it’s permanent, but I don’t hear a lot of people chattering about it. And when they pick a CDO, when they select the CDO, sometimes we still forget that what are the skills that are important? Like, what is the background of this person? Are these skills truly transferable to do this work? Can anybody do this work? Is there some form of training that perhaps no require that might benefit and enhance the capacity of this person to the work? So I think those are important.

Heather Shea
Yeah, I think that’s a I think that’s really speaks to me also. And part of it is as a higher education administrator, having studied higher ed, like, this is actually a field. And sometimes you can have been a Kinesiology Professor something and move into this, but that there is a body of knowledge here, right. And I think in terms of work, I’m also thinking about doing our own work, right, and recognizing the ways in which our identities are influencing the way that we view the world. And I recognize like, as a white woman, I can say no, in ways that my other colleagues can’t necessarily sometimes sit and just say no, so I think, balance and all of that kind of plays into it. Kelli, I want to go back to you too, because I think in your chapter in this section on becoming, you talk a lot about identity, saliency and that kind of self actualization within the system. And from different social identity vantage points, right. So can you talk a little bit about how you did that self work and what recommendations you might have for people who aspire to transition into into diversity, leadership roles, where it from wherever they came, but from that kind of identity piece?

Kelli Perkins
Absolutely. So I actually wrote my chapter with my former supervisor from the University of Vermont, Dr. Raphael. And so, Vermont, obviously, one of the whitest states of the nation. I think it goes back and forth with West Virginia for the whitest and at that time when I entered the community at the University of Vermont. I pretty much was the only like across even our division like the only like black woman in this kind of mid senior type role within the Division of Student Affairs. And Raphael is a Puerto Rican man first gen from New York City, he still is super strong in New York accent, right? And so we really wanted to talk about what does it look like to be, you know, leading a department right now number one and number two, and doing diversity work and thinking about it from, really, from our identities? Because unfortunately, I feel like sometimes there’s a black woman who does, I tried really hard. It’s really important to me to walk my talk, right, and to be demonstrating, doing doing my work. But I think there’s sometimes I do suffer, really, as far as the pressures put on me, right in this work from, because I’m somebody who shows up and I’m just, you know, this is what I do, right? So I’m talking about things off bat, right? My current institution, when I got here, they didn’t have people weren’t really using pronouns. But because I’m coming from the higher ed space, that’s really just part of what I do. And so I have a signature with pronouns and a link to the NIH website about why this is important. And now, this year, they model they, our communications department has fashioned that email signature of the way I’ve set it up for everybody, right? And I think students notice, right, and parents, but again, because of that, and because of my positionality, right, because we can’t take that out of it. And not that my positions are my identity. But they do tend to get conflated, right, when you’re in a position where you can actually make change, right? It is, it’s so much harder, right? And so that’s really what our chapter was about. So how do we figure out how we ground ourselves? Right? And again, continue to do our learning. I don’t know, everything there is to know, right? None of us do. I’m not what I was 10 minutes ago, just because I here with the three of you engaging in this conversation, right? And so if that’s true, how are we modeling, doing the work knowing that as Brighid spoke about, this is continual? It is not? It is not over night, right? And it just simply does not stop. So I think in that one of the things we talked about was becoming is in these roles, particularly like I said, as people of color, right, trying to lead various initiatives is, one understand what the charge is right, I think getting really clear, it’s a lot easier to say no. And to stick with that, when you’re not trying to carry everything on your back. Right. Which, which is hard. It’s very difficult. I’m currently and only I’m the only person of color on our administrative team, right? I am not quite as young as I look, but I’m definitely one of the youngest administrators. So people I, you know, show up with the students a lot differently, maybe, then some administrators makes me and then dean of students, right. And so that makes me really easy. really accessible, right for people to grab and say Miss Perkins, Miss Perkins, Miss Perkins. But I think it’s no as much easier when there is a clear charge. I think the other piece is thinking about allies. Right, who who are your allies? I have been trained and practicing restorative practices for a number of years now. And so one of the things I’ve been trying to do, as I’ve been implementing in my current role is figure out who are my allies? Who are the people who seem to really buy into this, but also who have the connections, right, that I need and maybe a little more difficult for me to get. Because of, well, for a couple reasons. One, my newness, right, but also, quite frankly, because of other people not doing their work and the biases that they hold, right. So who are those people who can I can send out right, who are my foot soldiers? Right.

Kelli Perkins
I think another thing is centering yourself on what’s important, right, Brighid spoke a lot about what is the cost of my family, right? What is the cost of my family? I have family members who live with me, right? And I don’t I don’t want them to see me coming. They’re older. Right? But I don’t want them to see me coming home at multiple nights in a row at nine o’clock at night. Right because we’re coming home crying or you know, exhausted you know too exhausted to even have a meal with them because I am so wrapped up right in the work. Like while it is important again. I, and I will say of utmost importance, given our current, the current state of things. You know, for me, I’m thinking about in the state of Virginia, our governor Younkin just got passed laws basically to say that schools K 12, schools no longer have to make any accommodations for transgender students. And I feel like, you know, one of the things I’m trying not to let myself do while I’m gonna leave a spin and say, Oh, my gosh, what is happening on my own campus? I was we’ve done all this work last year to add some salient protections for transgender students. And while we’re an independent school, and we don’t have to follow, right, the state laws in some respects, we also is an independent school is very expensive, our main constituent, our parents, right now, which is something we don’t talk about, really, I think robustly enough. So if that’s the case, like what is happening, right, to my students, what’s the what’s going on? What’s going to be the change when I return? But we have to, I can’t do all that by myself, right? I just, I just can’t, I just can’t. And so I think it’s thinking about that, right? Your What are your What are your reasons? What are your why, right, personally, what are your institutions whys? Right? What can you what, what, what needs to be what, what’s the low hanging fruit, right some of time thinking about? What what can be done immediately? How can I give students a win? And I think I’m fortunate to be in a role where I’m at, because I do get to really just say, focus on the students. Right? And not that I’m not focused on the adults. But generally, if we take care of the least of us, right, we’re going to take care of everyone, it’ll be fine, right? Even if people initially freak out. We’ve changed but also finding those adults, who are my allies, who can say, oh, no, this is why this change is important. This is how this makes the student experience better. This is how we make sure that folks feel like they belong here and are included.

Heather Shea
Yeah. Yeah, I think, as you were speaking about the different roles and our focus on different constituents, I was thinking a bit in the in the last section on doing and how one of the chapter authors talks a lot about wearing several different hats and how to do truly transformative diversity work, you have to be comfortable, right, speaking in different audiences, giving advice to both undergraduate students and the president or the Chancellor of your institution, sometimes within like, one Zoom meeting, switching channels to the next Zoom meeting. So Brighid, do you want to talk a little bit about how all of these how you were all of these different hats and how you’ve navigated these personal experiences and professional roles? In in your capacity on your campus at Penn?

Brighid Dwyer (Ajunwa)
Yeah, so I think that this is a this is a great, great question. And, and it changes and I think it’s changed at different points in my in my career, too. I think, you know, I think when I was younger, I would maybe say it doesn’t matter, you don’t want to show up the same way authentically to every single group and, and then, to a certain extent, but I also think that I somehow I’ve learned, I don’t know, maybe it’s just from observation that different people need different messages. And I think sometimes different people need different messengers as well. So I also might not be the right messenger for every single audience. And so I think a lot about that, I think a lot about my role as negotiator in terms of in and messenger, I think both together, am I the right person to deliver that message? Or if somebody else is better person to deliver that message? You know, again, I want to echo both things that I think Kelli and Raul said, you know, I think Rollo said from the outset about, you know, your recruiter, you’re an educator, you’re a communicator, right. And then so many other things as as sort of a CDO in that in that kind of role. And I think that that’s true, I think that, you know, we have to be able to recruit both faculty, staff, students, effectively, we have to be able to retain them effectively, we have to be able to do some really good work in terms of providing workshops and support. And we also have to tell that story, you know, so we can be doing all these great things, but I think especially at, I think it’s true in any institution, I think every institution has its own stereotype, right? So it could be Oh, it’s that, you know, big state institution. And you know, we it’s only known by you know, that thing that happened 20 years ago, right? Or it’s, oh, the Ivy’s and you know, the particular reputation or oh, you know, the community college and we have this stereotype about a community college now. So we’ve got to, we’ve got to say we’re all doing really good work. We’re just doing it differently and we’re doing within their purview. Kelly again, was talking about you know, some of the The differences between kind of a state and a private institution and so the ways in which we navigate that. So, you know, the conversations that that I had at a state institution and the actions I had to take at a state institution are different than what I what I take at Penn, right. And those are also different than than the ways in which I interact at interacted at Princeton, and in my last institution, both Ivy’s both very elite, but different. So really, I think getting to know that culture of your institution, and even the culture, the sort of subcultures that exist, whether it’s a student affairs unit, you mentioned it, or the president’s office, a particular school, you know, a difference at different universities, there’s sort of there’s oftentimes sort of that academic program, that’s everybody’s like, Oh, well, is that program or there’s that school or, you know, and so knowing what carries the weight and how you navigate that, I think is really important. And then circling back to what you were saying before about about mentorship? I think, both, you know, what I’m saying about him becoming and what I heard and reflected in what Kelly was saying, as well, I think, you know, I’ve been fortunate to have a lot of great mentors, but I’m also very cognizant that I’m a mentor, right, yeah. Just like I was saying, you know, they’re like, yeah, oh, it’s Miss percussing. What’s Miss Perkins doing? I’ve got to be mindful about the ways in which I’m showing up, because people are watching, whether they’re saying anything or not, especially our students, they’re often copying or saying, Oh, well, I want to do it. You know, what Brighid did. And so I, that means I better work 80 hours a week, or I better, you know, show up every week? No, I think it’s important that our students see, again, at every level, that it’s okay to say no, and say, you know, I’m going to show up, you know, I’m going to be there. And when I’m present for you, I’m listening. But if I show up to everything like that, again, I know somebody who like has fallen asleep in meetings, right. You know, a couple of people actually even fall asleep. And I want to be there and be present and as attentive as I can be. For for folks. And so I think that taking on and putting putting off those hats, and I think giving the hat to other people. Yeah, really important.

Heather Shea
Yeah that’s a great point, Raul, what would you add to the concept of identities and hats and doing this work?

Raul Leon
Yeah, I think there’s a concept that is very clear and complements. What has been shared so far is, I think the idea that CDOs are charged with rebuilding trust at all institutional level is something that is reoccurring in many professions. I think one of the main tasks that the CDO acts as an integrator. And building trust, wearing different hats is a little tricky. And specifically, we acknowledged the following. I think many CDO’s represent minority groups or minoritized groups. And therefore, you are trying to wear a hat in which your beliefs your what do you value might be going against the grain of oppression or against things that are not equitable. But at the same time, you now also are in administrator, you also represent the admin team you sit in the leadership’s cabinet. So I think you will be in groups in which they will question what I think is Professor Park sort of mentioned that there is a dance between your loyalties to particular groups, whether that is students, faculty, communities that represent your identities, and how they will perceive how your loyalties are tested as you come into many spaces. So I think the dynamics of those different hats that they will test not only your personal beliefs, but also the institutional beliefs. And you will have to respond to those institutional pressures that in some spaces, you will be tokenized. And in other spaces, you might be the one that needs to stay or the power or shine the light and in institutional pockets that might not be places where diversity, equity and inclusion are a priority. So I think is knowing how to put your head and sometimes knowing that the hell you’re putting on as you are an administrator.

Heather Shea
So challenging, and I think the campus climate that we’re finding ourselves in right now too, and doing this work. And the concluding chapter of this book is about cancel culture navigating call out culture, and it does it does feel like it’s a particular hot button issue. A recent episode that I hosted was around identity based student activism and how how this this is not new, of course, but like it does feel like it’s it’s risen to an even higher level. And sometimes that means there’s all falling on the role of the CDO to kind of take that so I I’m really curious. I know the authors of that chapter arent here today, but I’m really interested in hearing what each of your thoughts are on. How do you transform institutions in the midst of a call out or canceled culture and the vulnerability that’s required to do this work right now? In our society? Kelli, I’ll start with you.

Kelli Perkins
Sure. I love the way that Dr. Loretta Ross talks about calling out versus calling in. S he really pushes, calling people in and I think about that, what we’ve been talking about previously, though, multifaceted role right of the CDO like, and I think that one of the things that I always remember is that I am an educator first, right? And so educated that just doesn’t mean just students, right? I educating my family, right? I’m educating the people around me, I’m educating my fellow colleagues, right, I’m on my current role. I’m educating the administrators, right. My fellow administrators, and I don’t necessarily take that hat off. Right. If I believe I’m an educator, the and I believe that we’re always learning, then I do have some responsibility in that. But I don’t think that for me that it’s getting rid of calling out sometimes we have to call out right if there’s actively harm, right, that is being perpetuated, right? If somebody is doing something or saying something that is just so egregious, there is a point where we have to say, no, stop, right? In order to then Britt call somebody in right to have that conversation, to try to engage them in the necessary learning, to get them to, to change to change their heart, right, hopefully, in order to change their mind. But I don’t think that I think the scary part now is social media, right? I think about my students, one of the things that they’ve said to me, Now, mind you, I have you know, 14 18 year olds, and they say, well, Miss Perkins, I don’t understand why this student doesn’t know that all black people aren’t poor. Right? A kid who grew up, who’s 14 year old who grew up in Great Falls, Virginia, right, right next door to me, which is one of the richest cities in the entire United States of America. Right? It’s, it’s overwhelmingly white, it’s where the governor of Virginia came from, right? Well, it’s like, kids, of course, they don’t know that. You’re literally in school because your lottery, what’s something you learned yesterday in school that you didn’t know? Right? If people aren’t, and they assume that they should all know all the same things because of the amount of access that they have information that we all did it? Right. And so I think for me, the calling call out, conversation is about how do we make? How do we help our students? Right? How do we help each other to see each other as human again? Right and leave room for imperfection? It does. We don’t? I feel like we don’t do that. Now, and I don’t know if I’m not sure how much COVID has heightened some of that, right? Because everybody, everybody was inside, right? Watching George Floyd right happen, as as it was being filmed, right. Because because of the pandemic, I think that there are just so many things happening in our world that I think, make the ante feel so much higher, that it’s so hard for folks to stop and really think about what was the intention here? Right? What was the intention? Right? Who is this person, right? Because we all bring, you know, saying our myriad of identities with us to every space, we’re in to every conversation to every interaction? And if that’s true, how do we stop long enough to say, Okay, what’s going on here? Right? What’s the full context in order to figure out the best way to respond?

Heather Shea
Yeah, well, Brighid, what would you add to this concept of call out culture?

Raul Leon
I could share something I was having a conversation in an event a couple of weeks ago, that I remember reading earlier in my career, the diversity crisis response model that was put by Damon, which, you know, this is what happens and how they respond to the crisis and go back, don’t make changes. And here’s the next crisis, right? So it gives you a little piece in between to be able to not prepare for the next crisis by just to do your work till the next crisis happens. And one of the things that I was sharing with folks is that I think we really need the strive to operate in an institution in which they work that you do, truly convinces the stakeholders, whether it’s students, faculty, staff, or colleagues that your values are, where you say your strategic plan is. So when a crisis occurs, we’re not questioning the values of this institution. But we’re questioning perhaps individuals that might have participated in this, but we know who we really are. So we really know that this is an outlier, right? I have never been a big fan of putting in statements immediately when it happened to address something I actually always can feel as like, well, if we know who we are, then then like, the apology will have more meaning because they know it’s not us. But if they don’t, and we don’t focus in changing that work, then it doesn’t matter how beautiful the statement is, it still is not who we are, right? So I think it can go both ways. So my idea of a CDO is like, can we also spend time in forming the institution to better understand what we do, why we do it, and also recognize the milestones of progress that we have taken. Because I believe crisis can sometimes crumble the entire process of of that, like, I think there’s a saying that it takes a lot, a lot less to destroy something than to build the red pays a lot more to build a sandcastle than to destroy the entire thing. And I am trying to operate in a way that we invest time and foundations.

Heather Shea
That’s really powerful.

Brighid Dwyer (Ajunwa)
Yeah, I love what you’re saying there. You know, I think it circles back to where we’re talking about at the beginning around sort of the symbolism, right? And so had a lot of these conversations with colleagues around how much time do we put into like, wordsmithing and getting our, you know, statement perfect and put it out there. So it’s like, let’s do the work. Like, let’s do the word magic. But you know, it’s been eight hours and, you know, eight, eight, an hour of eight people, right? And at times, right, it’s exponential, it really can build up. So yeah, I love it. I love what you said, there. I will. And I think, you know, Kelly, you also just outlined so many great things around kind of, you know, calling in or inviting into the conversation, you know, I come from a tradition of Intergroup Dialogue, where we’re always talking about being in a relationship with one another. And so if we are, you know, cancelling each other, we are not in relationship. You know, it’s funny, because as you all were talking, I remember this story from back when I was an undergrad, I remember getting really upset with this kid who I used to hang out with my first year, and I just was like, on pretzels. Like, I’m not talking to him anymore, right? So I canceled him. I just cancelled it. And then like a year later, I was like, what? Was Right, so it’s like, but we were in relationship, we still saw each other all the time. So I had to make an active point to actually not talk to him. Because our circles, you know, connected. And so this point about humanity, we’re all we’re here we have to nobody is perfect. How do we have the forgiveness and the just the patience and the understanding to see one another’s humanity? Yeah, we’re all constantly learning. And Kelli, your point about, we expect people to know everything, just because we have access to that information, like, very beautifully said, very beautifully said. So, so I’m just saying, you know, I echo everything my colleagues have already said, I think we really need to think about the ways in which we’re connecting together, and really be intentional about not just being firefighters, but really being like the fire marshal, right? How are we doing the prevention? How are we doing that prevention work? How are we setting that foundation, and really building on top of that, so that we, you know, if we’re if we’re able to send to have that attention, then it’s like, oh, that’s a quick, that’s a quick like small bliss, we’ll just you know, that’s, that’s, you know, we can just take a little extinguisher and it’s our we don’t need the all the planes to come in, and you know, douse everything. And so that, that that proactive nature is just so so critically important. And the piece around trust, trust and time, right, things don’t happen overnight. It takes a lot of trust, and it takes time to build, so we have to be patient with each other.

Heather Shea
Yeah, that’s really powerful. I was thinking, I don’t know if you all are familiar with the author, Adrian Marie Brown, but her book we will not cancel us really speaks to this idea of our shared humanity, right. It’s not a you versus me thing. It’s a we and so if we’re all invested in moving forward together as a community, it’s a beautiful little short pamphlet type book, but her work is kind of, I was like, oh, reminding me I hear it’s as we always end it feels like the time goes by so quickly. I am so grateful to all of your, your insights. Today, we always end kind of with our final question. Our podcast is called Student Affairs NOW and I’d love to have you each take a minute or two to summarize what you’re pondering and questioning, thinking about excited about troubling And if you are interested in sharing how people can connect with you, that would be great. So Brighid, I’ll start with you.

Brighid Dwyer (Ajunwa)
Ah, well, I think that my my challenge right now is I’m pondering and I’m thinking about about so much I think that there’s this job is so multifaceted that I’m in and I’m connecting with so many different, different people and different individuals. I think I’m really I’m so narrowed down I think I’m really focused on what we what we’ve been talking about today is, how can I be the messenger and be specific to the different groups in ways that are really effective? And do that in a way that is sustaining and really looks at this, this work as a marathon and not a sprint? I’ll stop there.

Heather Shea
Thank you so much. Raul, what about you? Final thoughts?

Raul Leon
Yes. So as I shared in the beginning of the podcast, I began in June 1, so is my first three months of actually doing a Diversity Leadership posts. Prior to this, I was a professor of Higher Education and Student Affairs. And while I was engaged with activities related to DEI work, I never had a full time role in the area now that I do, I think I have come to really appreciate the time, my predecessors or perhaps even leaders in the unit have spent to design the unit designed the position and think about what it means to be successful for the folks that come in. And as I continue to chat with diversity officers across the nation, I will really encourage institutions not to use the diversity officer just to call me crisis and appoint someone, but spend some time designing and thinking about the role. So when the person commence can actually do the work that is needed. So I guess I will end with saying, I am thankful that I believe, University of Wisconsin Madison, specifically the division, thought about that as they prepare to hire new leaders. So it allows you to enjoy the work and enjoy what you know, and contribute with what you’ve been preparing for a long time to be able to do.

Heather Shea
Thank you so much, Kelli, your final thoughts?

Kelli Perkins
Absolutely. I came across a quote recently from James Baldwin, that our conversation today really has me pondering on and it says that the role of the artist and the lover is the same. If I love you, I have to make you see yourself in ways that you are not able. And I think that that for me, as I’m thinking about our conversation, thinking about this notion of the CDO, trying to build trust, right, the multifaceted role of the CDO, trying to make those connections with a multitude of different constituencies. I really think that that is right, that is the role, right? That CDO, right to take up the post is a labor of love. Right? And you are artists, right? And helping our institutions, see how they can be their best selves, right? And really bringing that imaginative spirit of what what our worlds could be right into our different institutions. I am big on Twitter. So people can reach me at Alwayz_Queen on Twitter.

Heather Shea
Awesome. Thank you so much. I’m so grateful to the three of you for your time today. And I can’t recommend this book enough. So actually, we’ll put a link to it in our show notes for today. Thank you for your time. Thank you for the conversation and for all the things that I’m now thinking about myself. Also sending heartfelt appreciation to our dedicated behind the scenes work of our producer. Nat Ambrosey. Thank you Nat for all the things that you do as well.

Heather Shea
If you’re listening today and not already receiving our weekly newsletter, please visit our website at studentaffairsnow.com and scroll to the bottom of the homepage to add your email to our MailChimp list. While you’re there, check out our archive organized for you in the ACPA and NASPA professional competencies. Thanks to our sponsors of today’s episode, our first sponsor is Stylus. Stylus is proud to be a sponsor of the Student Affairs NOW podcast, browse their student affairs, diversity and professional development titles at styluspub.com. Use promo code SANow for 30% off all books plus free shipping. You can also find Stylus on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, LinkedIn, and Twitter @styluspub. Our second sponsor is Vector Solutions. How will your institution rise to reach today’s socially conscious generation, these students report commitments to safety well being and inclusion as important as academic rigor when selecting a college it’s time to reimagine the work of student affairs as an investment, not an expense. Dor over 20 years.Vector Solutions which now includes the campus Prevention Network, formerly EverFi has been the partner of choice for 2000 Plus colleges, universities and national organization. With nine efficacy studies behind our courses you can trust and have the full confidence that you are using the standard of care for students safety, wellbeing and inclusion. Transform the future of your institution and the community you serve. Learn more at vectorsolutions.com/studentaffairsnow. Please take a moment to visit our website and click on the sponsors link to learn more. Again, I’m Heather Shea thanks to our listeners and to everybody who is watching and listening. Make it a great week everyone.

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