Amanda Kraus:
Person first language encourages essentially distancing the person or the individual from disability. For, you know, I think a lot of reasons we have been socialized disabled and nondisabled people alike to believe disability is negative, something to be hidden, something you know, that’s kind of riddled with stigma. And I would say out of the political correctness movement of the 1980s and nineties, we were taught not to identify as disabled or to identify others as disabled, but, you know, really recognizing I’m a person first.

Heather Shea:
Welcome to Student Affairs NOW the online learning community for student affairs educators. I’m your host, Heather Shea. Today we are discussing better practices for serving students with disabilities, with three scholars, student affairs, educators and leaders in the field of studies. Before I introduce my guest today, I’m gonna share a little bit more about our podcast and today’s sponsors. Student Affairs NOW is the premier podcast and learning community for thousands of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We hope you’ll find these conversations, make a contribution to the field and are restorative to the profession. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays, and you can find us at studentaffairsnow.com on YouTube or anywhere you listen to podcasts. Today’s episode is sponsored by Simplicity. A true partner, Simplicity supports all aspects of student life with technology platforms that empower institutions to make data driven decisions.

Heather Shea:
This episode is also sponsored by LeaderShape, go to leadershape.org, to learn how they can work with you to create a just caring and thriving world. Stay tuned to the end of the podcast for a little bit more information on each of these sponsors. As I mentioned, I’m your host, Heather Shea, my pronouns are she her and hers and I am broadcasting from East Lansing, Michigan on the campus of Michigan State University, MSU occupies the ancestral traditional and contemporary lands of the Three Fires Confederacy of Ojibwe, Ottawa, and Potawatomi peoples the university resides on land seated in the 1819 treaty of Treaty of Saginaw. I am so grateful to the three folks who have joined me today to talk with us and our audience. So I would love each of you to introduce yourselves and tell us a little bit about your connection to this episodes. Topic a little bit about your background. And I’m gonna start with Lissa. Welcome Lissa.

Lissa Ramirez-Stapleton:
Hi hello, my name is Dr. Lissa Ramirez-Stapleton. She her hers pronouns. I live work on the ancestral traditional contemporary lands of the Tonga people. So I am in Southern California, Riverside LA area. I’m an associate professor of deaf studies at Cal State Northridge and a core faculty member in education leadership and policy studies program. My research primarily focuses on deaf communities, looking at identity history access and language.

Heather Shea:
Thank you. Welcome. And Amanda, welcome. Welcome to Student Affairs NOW. You were on a previous episode of student affairs live, which we’ll talk a little little bit about, so it’s great to see you.

Amanda Kraus:
Yeah. Great to see you all too. Thanks for having me. I’m Dr. Amanda Kraus. I use she her pronouns. I’m at the University of Arizona in Tucson, which resides on the ancestral and contemporary lands at the U of A I’m assistant vice president for campus life and executive director for the disability resource center. And I’m an associate professor of practice in the center for the study of higher education where I teach in our master’s program student services courses, as well as disability and higher ed courses. And I am finishing up my term right now as the president for AHEAD, the association on higher education and disability. That’s lovely to be with you all.

Heather Shea:
Thanks for being here, Amanda and Autumn. Welcome.

Autumn K. Wilke:
Thanks. Hi everyone. I’m Autumn Wilke. My pronouns are she her and hers and I’m joining you today from the ancestral and contemporary homelands which is central Iowa. For folks who are not familiar with where I work. I work as the associate chief diversity officer for disability resources at Grinnell College, which is a small private liberal arts school of about 1600 students in Iowa. And I’m also a doctoral student at Colorado State University where research really is focusing on the experiences of disabled students, particularly within the classroom.

Heather Shea:
Excellent. And I have ties to Colorado State and then of course, back to the University of Arizona. So it’s great to, it’s great to hear that connection piece and Lissa, I know our paths crossed several years ago, think at ACPA.

Autumn K. Wilke:
Yeah.

Heather Shea:
I love it. So this episode was actually initially sparked by a previous episode. I hosted last semester about pronouns, and I think the conversation or comment on the YouTube recording was, can you do another conversation about language, but with respect to disability. So we’re gonna start there today, but take this in all kinds of other directions so that we can all better learn and serve students on our campuses. And as you could tell, this is a complete rock star panel for administrative leaders and faculty and scholars and folks who are contributing to the literature as well as serving in professional association leadership roles. So I am grateful and I have no doubt. This is gonna be an fascinating conversation. So I’d love to begin with the topic of language, always evolving what recent changes have occurred. And Amanda, I’m gonna toss us to you first.

Amanda Kraus:
Sure. Yeah. Language is a really interesting topic and I know folks have a lot of questions about disability language. And so I can share with you a recent document and, and direction that ahead has gone in to promote identity first language. But before I do I want to kind of, you know, discuss options. So person first and identity first language, and I welcome my colleagues to jump in as well. Person, first language is I’m a person with a disability. And I do want to take ’em minute to say that I’m disabled and use a wheelchair, and this might not be apparent from YouTube or the podcast, but these conversations are both personally and professionally very important to me. Person first language encourages essentially distancing the person or the individual from disability. For, you know, I think a lot of reasons we have been socialized disabled and nondisabled people alike to believe disability is negative, something to be hidden, something you know, that’s kind of riddled with stigma.

Amanda Kraus:
And I would say out of the political correctness movement of the 1980s and nineties, we were taught not to identify as disabled or to identify others as disabled, but, you know, really recognizing I’m a person first identity, first language challenges that a bit, and, you know, an example of identity, first language I’ve been modeling. It is I’m disabled. I’m a disabled person that language I would say is more consistent with disability studies, more consistent with perhaps social justice, thinking about access and equity and is in my opinion a bit more accurate in that I believe I am a person with an impairment who is disabled by attitudes, structures, systemic barriers, barriers. For me, it’s also more consistent with how I identify with other parts of myself. I’m a woman. I am a disabled woman. I am a disabled white woman.

Amanda Kraus:
I do not feel the need to distance myself from other subordinated identities that I hold. And I do want to, you know, just kind of say to clarify that that’s my choice. I’ve done a lot of work and reflecting on my disability identity and how best to represent it in language. There are lots of people who prefer the person first or might use the approaches interchangeably. And, you know, I certainly think it’s important to leave space for that. AHEAD recently, just about a year ago, a little over a year ago you know, issued a statement, basically saying that as an organization, we would be promoting identity first language and we’re working to update all of our communication across our websites and, and various channels to reflect identity first language. It is not a directive. You know, it, it is not the, the, the rules and if you don’t follow it, you know, you’re, you’re out, it’s simply a position we’re taking to model identity first language, because I think as much as we’ve all been trained to, to utilize person first language, there are a lot of people who want to say disability, and aren’t sure if it’s appropriate.

Amanda Kraus:
So ahead is, is trying to, just to kind of get out there and say it is okay to say disabled. It’s also okay to say a person with a disability. I will kind of I’ll say it. It’s not okay with me to, to use euphemisms like differently able special needs are handy, capable mentally challenged. And I’m sure we could talk more about that if necessary, but I think it’s important to say disability, both person first and identity first language, you know, they, they are, are articulating the word disability. And I, you know, personally, I, I lean a little bit more on the identity first side, and ahead is simply I think creating space for that in the profession.

Heather Shea:
We are gonna share that statement with the show notes today. So folks will be able to, to access and read read through it. But what, what else would you all all add? Lissa, Autumn.

Lissa Ramirez-Stapleton:
I think it’s really interesting, cause I think it’s I have the, the pleasure to work for rank associates and to do climate studies all over the country and have had a lot of time with students and I to focus on disability. And I think the language piece is in line with how people are feeling about being visible. So when talking with students, I want to have a club I want to have, you know, a space that I can identify my disability openly, right. And running up against all of the kind of older ways of thinking of things need to be secretive. People don’t need to know running against, I think the ways in which the system pushes shame, right? And I think students are pushing back saying, no, no, I want to chat with other students who have a variety of disabilities.

Lissa Ramirez-Stapleton:
I want to be in community. I want people to know, I want to table tent when other clubs are tabling techs. I want to recruit people and be involved and be in community and conversation with people. So I think that our policies and practices are finally kind of getting in line with what students really want. So we, I feel like it’s a little more parallel. I mean, we’re getting there, right? It’s like pushing the parallels of what students want and what our system has. Not always allowed them to have for a variety of laws and rules and policies and practices we put into place to protect them. Right. and they’re saying, no, I don’t actually want you to protect me. Like I think I’m okay. And I want to be in community with other folks. So I’m excited to see that AHEAD is leading the way with that. And I guess in community, in community also with, I think disability, justice folks in the community who have been pushing this and saying like, this is, this is who we are as a person with a learning disability. It it’s, yeah. This is who I am. Like, there’s no need to like sugar coat that or, or hide that under something else. But I think again, the academy community, ground, social justice advocates work, and students are finally starting to get in the same rhythm and vibe, which is cool to see.

Autumn K. Wilke:
Yeah. And I would really echo everything that Amanda and Lissa have already said. And I think the piece that I would would add kind of thinking too, about as I’m working with, like, I do a number of trainings on campus and language is often one of the places where folks have questions faculty, staff, other students across the board. And, you know, and I think one of the things that I always emphasize for folks is that, you know, we can have sort of shared language for policy, for process, but like ultimately everybody has their own sort of personal and like that the best thing you can do is also to respect how other people identify themselves. And and I often will then, you know, sort of for myself, like share, you know, some of my own preferences around language, I also identify as disabled.

Autumn K. Wilke:
But I talk about how our language is imperfect and share specific example that like, when I talk about community, when I talk about the communities, I’m a part of, I really use language of disabled. But when I’m talking more specifically about my diagnoses and things like that, like so I have OCD and I, you know, I will talk about, I’m a person with OCD, but I’m part of the disabled community. And so that even in the ways that sometimes as you get into the nuance of those pieces of it, like our, our sentence structures, don’t always work with the ways that people actually want to talk about themselves or refer to themselves. And so kind of talking through some of those things and that, you know, it it’s really about people having having the choice in the agency to identify for themselves what language fits, what language feels feels right.

Autumn K. Wilke:
And somebody who’s also part of the queer community. I think that that feels really like natural to me too, in, in the ways that you know, the language that one person who might seemingly identify the same as me uses for them may not work for me. And the language that I use for myself works really well for me and actually is what I feel like describes my experience. And so you know, I often will try to give some of those examples as I’m talking with folks to kind of help really

Autumn K. Wilke:
Really talk about the ways that there’s not a one right answer that fits for everybody because our language, our language is doesn’t our language. Doesn’t always provide options for that. And everybody’s experience is different. And so people are gonna have different words that really resonate for them in terms of how they talk about their experience, their relationship with disability, their relationship with others, within disabled communities, all of that, like may shift and change based on location based on sort of where somebody’s at in their identity development, like across the board, all of that can, can be stuff that shifts.

Heather Shea:
So what I’m hearing is it’s, I’m now seeing many parallels between the conversation around pronouns, right? So really about allowing the person and, and asking them what they prefer or, and using the would, as well as the creating the communities of belonging, where folks can connect with one another. And so I, I I’m like, oh, that maybe that’s what the person who was thinking about was getting at, you know, specifically around asking the individual. So I would love to hear a little bit more about your work on your active campuses and, you know, certainly 2022 is where we are, you know, right now, but the last couple of years at the pandemic has certainly changed the ways that we engage with one another, both in technology and virtual spaces, but also on our campuses. So would love to hear more about how has anything changed, you know, in the way that you’re engaging with students and what are some of the bigger challenges facing students on our campuses who identifies disabled or members of the, of the disability community. And I’ll maybe start with Autumn.

Autumn K. Wilke:
Yeah. You know, I think you sort of my initial thought, or the first thing that kind of came to mind as you were, as you were explaining the question is that I don’t think we fully know yet, you know, I think a lot of that is still like, like a lot of the ways that pandemic has shaped sort of experiences, the ways that the pandemic is continuing to shape experiences, I think is stuff that we will continue to see sort of shape out over the next however many years for students. But some of the things that I’ve seen on in particular on our campus, like comparing sort of pre pandemic during pandemic in this ongoing period of PA, you know, like kind of thinking about all these different phases a couple of the observations that I’ve made.

Autumn K. Wilke:
And and that I think were made to be seen how this will be a good thing a, a complicated thing, you know, kind of across the board. One of them being that folks who have, I would say never really who had not previously disclosed or who had not previously been seeking disability communities for the first time, really there were, there were folks who were doing that because of the pandemic. I think there were ways where folks who may have I’m thinking in particular, some of the, the folks that I work with both on the faculty staff side and on the student side who have complicated sort of chronic health conditions and may not have previously identified as being of a disability or, or the disabled community, really, I think for the first time we’re finding oh, like this is something that the pandemic is forcing me to kind of reckon with, or reckon with is isn’t even the right word, but like to tell other people about and begin to come into community around some of it, I think that there’s been a lot of ways where particularly for folks who are navigating sort of being immunocompromised masking, like all of these things on college campuses are, are starting to find each other and talk about those in a way that I’m excited about.

Autumn K. Wilke:
I’m excited about the ways that some of our conversation about what does, what does community and support for each other kind of look like has been shifting on, on our campus over the course of the pandemic, both because of who’s getting engaged in that conversation, people who previously had not been but then also I think the pandemic and Lissa may have some, some ways to, to contribute on this. I, I think that there’s ways where the pandemic really has both illuminated opportunities for bringing folks into the conversation and have isolated people. You know, I think that there’s ways where technology has been great. And there, prior to the pandemic had been lot of disabled folks and activists sort of pushing for more ways for remote and hybrid participation and things. But I think we’ve also seen ways where it where if the technology isn’t right, if the, if the captions aren’t there, if the video’s not good, if the audio connections like where it’s just further continuing to separate folks and, and that some of the same principles pre pandemic, like applied in terms of like, what sort of like care and sort of thought is going into sort of the anticipation of disabled people within, within spaces and not just sort of an afterthought of like, well, how can we, now that somebody has raised this as an issue, how can we bring somebody in or how can we be thinking about, and so I think there’s lots of things that the last couple of years have have not necessarily changed, but have illuminated, like, have made more sort of forefront in terms of conversations and, and things like that, certainly on our campus anyway.

Heather Shea:
Yeah. Lissa, what would you add?

Lissa Ramirez-Stapleton:
So, as I said, I would a faculty member in deaf studies. And so I, I don’t, so I, I work with a variety, diverse group of students, right? So not all deaf students, so deaf and hearing students, but we’ve been online for two years now. We’re online again this semester where I think most of our campus, like 75, 80% of the campus is back, but we could not navigate the mask situation. So with masks, with our interpreters in our classes, so I sign all my classes. We have come full immersion for our, our courses, but then some certain classes have interpreters and couldn’t get around the, do we do clear masks? What do we do when they fog up? And students actually still can’t see your lips folks having a hard time breathing with them. The communication piece, we couldn’t figure out the communication piece to come back this semester.

Lissa Ramirez-Stapleton:
And so we are still online with some really positive things right around. I think there are certain students would, who were not participating before there finding a space to be able to participate through chat, right. Or enjoying the smaller kind of spaces. Folks who are navigating anxiety. Like this has been a positive thing on the flip side. Technology has been huge. So if I’m signing and students are seeing my hands four and five times, because of whatever weird internet connection or communication takes longer. Right. I think it’s really exhausting to be able to kind of take in all the information in this way, cause everything has to kind of slow down. I think our interpreters are, have been a phenomenal, but it’s been a learning curve to figure out the technology piece. Who are we lighting? Who’s not being lit.

Lissa Ramirez-Stapleton:
I mean, like who’s, who’s, I mean, like there’s been a learning curve. I also think when working with a variety of students with disabilities there is some type of disconnect for certain students through the screen that like either information students either can’t feel my energy or just, there’s literally certain students I have to meet with every day after class. And I have to repeat whatever I’ve said in certain parts of the class, because it just didn’t come through, which I don’t, I don’t even fully know I have a feeling about it, but I don’t fully know how to communicate what’s happening for folks, but there is a disconnect for some people like the information. I just can’t understand what you’re saying to me. Right. And so it’s a lot of kind of repeating and meeting one on one and me try to say it in a different way.

Lissa Ramirez-Stapleton:
Let me give you a visual, let me give you this. Right. And so that’s a different teaching, right? That’s a different approach to teaching. That’s a different amount of like energy and time that you’re spending one on one I’m I have about 120 students. And so, you know, you, I would say a large the number of students of disabilities in my class in terms of what you were saying, in terms of identifying is doubled easily, easily doubled. I think even still we’re almost in week eight and I’m still getting students added to my roster of students who are getting accommodations. Right. Cause they’re just like, I’m not doing well, I need help. Right. And so I think I’m seeing more and more that it just impacts teaching. Right. And to flip that most faculty are, are not trained on how best to work with diverse students, big picture.

Lissa Ramirez-Stapleton:
Right. disabled students, really, in terms of technology, in terms of what is accessibility means. And then to go beyond that, like what does it mean to sit down and have a conversation about feeling included, making sure your curriculum is diverse and includes people, making sure you have presenters in, in class that are representative of the diversity that’s in your class. Right. It’s it’s the next step? I don’t think universal design feels accessible, which is kind of odd to faculty all the time. Like what I get it, but what do I do with it in my class? How do I turn this into math? How do I turn this into philosophy? How do I turn this into sociology? Like I understand the theory it’s great in theory, but in practice, I don’t think there’s a lot of like kind of case study hands on.

Lissa Ramirez-Stapleton:
Like, this is what it actually means in your course. This is how it plays out in your course. This is what it looks like in a one-on-one conversation with a student. I don’t think that that’s there yet. And I think people have tried really hard during the pandemic to give lots of like professional development on how to use Canvas and Blackboard and all the, all the different systems. But I don’t think that’s always turned into, this is how you work. One-On-One with students around grief and learning differently and not being able to feel and understand, and their, their professors and navigating home and like all these other things that are playing into students lives in terms of learning on top of disability. Right. That, those pieces which I don’t want on. Cause I don’t always think necessarily that faculty have been taking care of well, to be able to come into the classroom because we’re dealing with our own stuff.

Lissa Ramirez-Stapleton:
Right. We’re coming in with all of our own stuff and trying to, to be a support system for folks. But I, I just think it’s complicated. I think it’s complicated and I wouldn’t say that it’s, it’s not working for everyone and it’s working for a lot of people too. Right. So I think it’s a, just like face to face classes when we go back in the fall, I think it’s gonna be great for some people and not great for other folks. And I think it’s just important to have conversations, real conversation about that. Yep.

Heather Shea:
Yeah. Amanda, what are you, what conversations are you having or what would you contribute?

Amanda Kraus:
Yeah, I mean, I share a lot of what Lissa and Autumn have, have already discussed. I think at Arizona, you know, it’s a very large campus and so it’s not uncommon for us to have about 4,000 students affiliated with our office utilizing accommodations and that has held. But I will say that like, I think Lissa said later and later into the semester, people are still affiliating. They’re still requesting accommodations. We also do workplace access and accommodations for employees. And not surprisingly, we’ve seen hundreds, more faculty and staff making requests for COVID related accommodations. And so, you know, students are saying, we’re not prepared to be here or we’re not prepared to straddle the remote in person environment. Yeah. And I think that’s true for most students, most faculty and staff, and it might kinda show up differently for students disabilities.

Amanda Kraus:
You know, I’ve said many times in the last couple of years, the, the pandemic has exposed a lot of embedded, deeply embedded assumptions we have about what is a student? Where is the classroom? What is an academic, what is a professional. Ultimately exposed a lot of ableism in the academy. Right. Certainly from my position, the things that we are now doing regularly, flexible schedules, flexible deadlines, remote class opportunities, captions autogenerated captions, professional captions excessible electronic materials previously, you know, prior to the pandemic, those were all reserved for individual accommodations, which meant that disabled people had to request them, wait on them, right. Go through a very different process than their non-disabled peers and counterparts. And now that everyone was impacted, you know, our university and, and every other college and university kind of sprung into action and required faculty to be more flexible, right.

Amanda Kraus:
Be more innovative. And you know, I will take that as a kind of win for universal design. I think we’ve grown a lot. We’re, we’re way better at it. Now, two years in than we were in March of 2020. But you know, it is a reminder of kind of values and assumptions. I would say that really underlie higher education. And I, you know, I don’t think that there’s any like checklist or, you know, way to guarantee that you’re doing it right. I mean, we have, we’ve had ADA compliance for 30 years and that doesn’t mean, you know, even though something’s accessible, it doesn’t mean it’s inclusive or welcoming or certainly equitable. Right. And just because we’ve universally designed something doesn’t mean that we are not going to have to work individually with people, you know, so neither one of these approaches to access are, you know, going to work perfectly for everyone. And I think that’s more in line the spirit of UD of universal design and that options, flexibility choice, right. Are real priorities. And I think we’ve definitely seen that. Right. We’ve put those values into practice. And there’s still individual accommodations that we need to make.

Heather Shea:
Yeah. We could go. And so many different directions, my, you know, kind of imagining us going down the path of, you know, what does universal design look like in student affairs work, but I really want to pick up also on this kind of systemic institutional role as well. So, you know, when we think about, you know, serving students broadly really how our institutions need to be not just thinking about compliance, but really thinking about equity, you know, what are, what are some of the suggestions that you have or what what role has AHEAD maybe played Amanda, I’ll stay with you for a moment in, in promoting that institutional responsibility.

Amanda Kraus:
Yeah. I mean, I think I’ve seen a, a real shift in, in AHEAD in its, you know the priorities of our members, the professional development that we’ve offered over the years, you know, I’ve been affiliated with AHEAD for 12 or 15 years, somewhere there about, and, you know, when I first affiliated it was very much medical model, you know, how do we help? How do we fix very much, I would say, you know, gatekeepers to accommodations. And in the last few years that has really changed in that we’re having more conversations about access and social justice the history of oppression that disabled and deaf people share disability, cultural centers. And I think we do a lot more you know, kind of to support conversation on good outreach, right? So I say this a lot, but if you’re, you know, if you’re a disability resource office and all you do is respond to requests for individual accommodations, that’s all you’re ever gonna do.

Amanda Kraus:
And that is out of the control of most DR or DS professionals. It’s how they’re resourced, how they’re organized. But you know, one thing that we do at Arizona, which I, I think is very important and we’re certainly not the only ones to do this, but we have some positions that are really campus facing. They do not work primarily with individuals, whether students or employees on accommodations, they work with campus partners on informing the design of a more inclusive campus that would reduce or potentially eliminate the need for our accommodations. So, you know, we say a lot, you always have to work both sides of the fence. You know, we are at the compliance area, right? We, we do compliance work and you can meet your compliance obligations through a universal design approach. You can remove a barrier systemically rather than individually, you know, of putting a, you know, quick fix on something and it’s still compliant.

Amanda Kraus:
It’s a shift in how we think about access. But you know, I think that there’s lots of great opportunity there. I mean, looking forward into the future, I mean, the ADA has been around for 30 years, but so the next 30 years, I hope we’re able to really operationalize this spirit of that law in creating inclusive and welcoming communities. You know, we work with students who have been admitted to colleges and universities by the same standards and practice it. You know, we they’re in the classroom, they’re held to the same academic standards on campus held to the same behavioral standards yet, you know, disabled students have to do a lot more to get the same basic access that non-disabled students just get by virtue of showing up. So you know, something that we like to talk about a lot in AHEAD and, and at Arizona is how do we ensure a similar, if not identical experience on campus and that’s in the classroom and outside the classroom, everything that campus has to offer similar, if not identical for disabled and nondisabled students with respect to access.

Autumn K. Wilke:
Yeah. And kind of building off of that, you know, I think one of the things you know, and, and it gets at this, this not only just the institutional sort of obligation part, but also that every person on the campus plays a part in it to, you know, kind of building off of that. What Amanda was saying about the additional sort of barriers and time and all of, you know, and I think one of the things that you know, I think it takes a while, or, or there needs to continue to be education around is that some of those things are not many of those things are not physical. Many of those things are, are the ways that people use spaces or the ways that people like it’s the ableism or the ways that we construct sort of environments.

Autumn K. Wilke:
You know, and like, I, I think on our campus, we, we still have, we have buildings that need work. We, you know, every, I think every campus has buildings that need work, but largely, the barriers that students are experiencing and the things that are taking up additional time for them are the navigating ableism that they’re encountering with their peers, with their faculty, with, with offices assumptions that are built into policies, policies that weren’t built to even consider sort of the existence of students with disabilities. You know, and, and I think it’s all of those things, like the I’ll share an example of something that we changed a number of years ago at a Grinnell after a, a student pointed out the issue with it. So, and I think a lot of campuses have this where Dean’s list requires a certain number of credits to even be eligible. Like you have to take 16, 17, you know beyond sort of a full-time course load in order to be considered for Dean’s list. But we also have students who are approved to take fewer credits, like that’s part of their accommodation package. And so thinking about, you know, what does it mean to have a policy that right from the get go says, somebody who has an accommodation will never be able to meet sort of this,

Autumn K. Wilke:
Something that students strive for? You know, I think most students would love to be on Dean’s list. Like that is a thing that people want, want to have of you know, and so, and that’s just a policy decision. Like there’s nothing that says that Dean’s list has, like, you have to take extra credits in order to be on Dean’s list. There’s, that’s not even sort of built into sort of the ethos of what Dean’s list is meant to be in terms of you know, great performance academically, like the arbitrary sort of decisions about time to degree, you know, all of these things that kind of are, are built in as assumptions that like Amanda was talking about of like, what does academics look like? What does being a student mean? What, what all of those sorts of pieces are arbitrary decisions. And those are things that then students, when they bump up against those have to navigate, have to advocate for change, have to you know, and so all of those are sort of some of the, the additional pieces, not even to mention the microaggressions that people are, are experiencing around around assumptions about their performance and all of those sorts of things.

Heather Shea:
I’d love to hear a little bit about your thoughts around graduate students, new professionals, you know, maybe who are watching or listening or experiencing this podcast today, but have very little understanding or experience, right. And what resources you share if folks are listening today and going, I really need to know more about this. But you know, some of the models that we, we kind of in inter continually interrogate, you know, some of those older theories and older perspectives, like how can we help current higher education professionals advance this complex topic on their campuses and, and also do the work themselves to advance their own understanding. So resources that you would like to share that you think folks should check out.

Lissa Ramirez-Stapleton:
Yeah. I would encourage folks, particularly those interested in, in working with or understanding more about deaf students is the national deaf center on post-secondary outcomes. So they’re at the University of Texas Austin a grant based organization that focuses on collecting data around education and work outcomes for deaf individuals across the country. So they have great data that breaks on each of the states and looking from high school up in terms of high school graduation, some college meaning community college four year and then graduate education and above, but also outside of just a great space that has data. But also doing workshops really great infographics that simply break down. How are you engaging with students right around either interpreters or transitioning from high school to college, but again, all focused on deaf students and working with their families. I think they’ve done a really great job of getting in community perspectives, really great videos. And it’s, it’s run by deaf individuals for deaf individuals. So I think it’s, it’s a great, a great resource.

Heather Shea:
Thanks, Lissa. Other thoughts from either Autumn or Amanda?

Autumn K. Wilke:
So I think that there’s a number depending on what folks are looking for. I think there’s a number of, of great resources out there. I think, you know, kind of with some of the topics that we’ve been talking about, like some of the, the resources I have found really helpful for like really understanding some of these embedded systems and like ableism, like Jay Domo’s, academic ableism would definitely be a book that I would recommend for folks. And there’s a number of really good books that have come out in the last decade, I would say about higher ed and sort of looking at more of those sort of systems pieces. I, I also think it’s not higher ed focused, but even for folk new professionals who feel like they don’t have a whole lot of context or understanding about disability as identity reading disability visibility that edited volume by Alice Won I think is also a really good, I tend to turn to books for like my own sort of learning. And so I’m kind of putting a couple of those out there for folks who want to do a little more deeper reading on, on particular things.

Amanda Kraus:
Yeah. I was going to recommend those books as well, autumn. And one more that I’m gonna look at the disability in higher education that Autumn you were contributor on. Right. So that’s, yeah, it’s a textbook and I love it. You know, it really breaks down key concepts in a practical way looking at different aspects of higher ed, but I think it’s very relevant to student affairs practice as well. You know, there’s a lot of really good disability activism going on. So, I mean, you can kind of turn to social media and talk and, you know, disability so white different hashtags that really will give you a sense of the disability rights community and just kind of regular disabled people who are interested in advancing justice. You know, I would say for grad students and for new professionals and for all of our colleagues, right, like we have been taught that disability is an individual, is the result of an individual circumstance, right?

Amanda Kraus:
A physiological difference that needs to be cured or fixed, or some sort of tragedy that we need to pity or position as charity. And, and that I would say is inaccurate. You know, and that there is the reality of impairment. There is the reality of, of difference in one’s body or brain. Disability is bigger than that, right? Disability is a sociopolitical phenomenon, right? With lots of different implications. So access is not the only piece of disability, right? And that’s what, when we really strictly or narrowly interpret the Americans at disabilities act, even with the best of intentions, like that tends to be where we end is we’ve made something accessible. But what I think we’re all talking about are things like inclusion and microaggressions. And so there are many ways that the disability community, I mean, is certainly underrepresented, historically marginalized subordinated group.

Amanda Kraus:
And so, you know, we can draw a lot of parallels between the disability experience and those of other subordinated communities. So sometimes I’ll just say like, if you would do it for another group, do it for disability. If you wouldn’t do it for another group, don’t do it for disability. And, and like, leave that up to you to kind of reflect on. And that can be about programming. It could be about interactions, about language but really trying to appreciate that the environment, whether it’s the built environment, you know, for me as a chair user, or all of our many other environments, the curricular environment, the policy environment, certainly the digital environment, they have been designed and through their design, they are inclusive of, or exclusive of communities, people experiences. Right. And so it’s helpful to think about disability that way because those environments also shape attitudes. And so if there’s not a particular barrier that we can accommodate, or, I mean, even if there is right, we can make something very accessible, but that’s not touching ableism. Right. That’s not touching bias. So disability is really complex and interesting. You know, so I would encourage folks to really think differently about it.

Heather Shea:
Yeah. This is just the beginning, I think of a much, much bigger conversation. And I know I’d love to continue the conversation beyond today as well with all three of you as, as we always kind of end and get to the end. I’d love to hear if there’s anything that you wish we would’ve talked about today, or, or a topic that you were like, this is something I real a point I really want to make. And so I’ll open it up for that. And then we’ll kind of go into final thoughts if that’s good.

Lissa Ramirez-Stapleton:
I guess one thing I’m thinking about I guess two things come to mind is really the intersectional piece around identity. I think that I highly highly want to encourage folks of color to engage, connect. I think as a black person, I’ve had an interesting relationship with disability from being a very young child being diagnosed and really vaguely diagnosed, and then trying to navigate the system with this really vague diagnosis and kind of constantly having to navigate and push for resources that I needed, but didn’t always have the, is kind of very formal paperwork for, right. And I think that a racialized, disabled experience is a very different type of experience and that we need scholars and graduate students and professionals to, to connect right, to to come to the table to engage in the conversation. And I think, again, some of that is kind of riddled with some trauma perhaps.

Lissa Ramirez-Stapleton:
But for those who are even somewhat interested, like we so need your perspectives, we so need the research and the work and the thinking that comes with your lived experience that is just missing in so many disabled spaces, particularly within the academy. I don’t think that’s always the case outside of the academy, particularly in the academy that has, it’s become a very white experience and that experience is not everyone’s experience. And so as for, as a faculty member, I very first day, these are my identities and it includes disability. Right. And so talking about that lived experience and I get other students just like, I’ve never had a professor say that to me. Like we, we’ve got to be more visible if at all possible again. Right. So I understand the complexities again of, of trauma and, and how that intersects with race and ethnicity and it’s complicated. But I do think it’s a worthwhile conversation in our scholarship and practice have to become more open to the variety of experiences again, that we’ve talked about that come with a racialized, a racialized lens.

Autumn K. Wilke:
Yeah. And, and I would add cuz I had a very similar thought in thinking about particularly sort of, from my perspective as somebody who works in disability resources and as a white woman and a lot of folks who do work in higher in higher ed disability spaces are white white folks, often white women. And, and thinking about the ways that we as professionals need to implicate ourselves and the ways that we’re, we’re in, we’re envisioning ourselves in policy and in practice and, and who that’s leaving out. And so, you know, I think particularly for folks who, regardless of what area you’re working in, but particularly if you are a grad student or somebody who’s thinking about working in disability resources you know, looking at the ways that ableism and racism have been very intertwined within the academy and in, without like even our legal system.

Autumn K. Wilke:
Like those two have been so sort of intertwined in, in terms of the ways that disability and practices around disability, particularly in the K12 sphere have been used to resegregate along racial line. Like there’s all sorts of ways that those, those have been married for lack of a better word. And so if folks are looking for readings related to that I highly recommend some of the work looking at some of the disparate work. There’s a lot of really good stuff happening in the K12 sphere in particular that I think higher ed needs to, to really do more and particularly white professionals in higher ed need to do more to really learning and taking in.

Amanda Kraus:
Well, I mean, I would say that a lot of people, you know, go into student affairs because they want to help. Right. I think we sometimes refer to student affairs as a helping profession. And that does kind of make me uncomfortable because of my experience with disability and how fraught helping is. You know, so I would encourage us as we think about our work in the field to think about how we can serve the institution and help the institution become a more inclusive and equitable experience in place rather than helping every individual disabled student or every individual student. Right. That’s I mean, we, we love the relationships that we build with students. And so I’m certainly not suggesting that we don’t have them, but I think the greater opportunity to really be kind of progressive student affairs professionals is to really look at how we can change the system and challenge the institution and help the institution in, in really living out its values around equity and inclusion.

Amanda Kraus:
And I would just say, you know, if it wasn’t really clear earlier that access and equity are not the same, you know, so when all we’re looking at is minimal compliance standards and minimal accommodations, that is not equity, right. Equity is something that we share. Equity is something that you know, I think we could argue, people have a right to when they’re members of a community and, you know, minimum access is really not where we want to end our work, you know, so really looking at how we can transform our campuses, our programs and practices to ensure that everyone has an equitable experience, right. Including around disability access.

Heather Shea:
I am so grateful for all of your contributions today. And I’ll just open it up for final thoughts things that you would like to leave our listeners with that you want to share or what, what this conversation has, has sparked for you now. Sometimes we off often ask the we’re called Student Affairs NOW, like what’s on your mind now.

Amanda Kraus:
I honestly, I appreciate the conversation. I don’t really engage in student affairs spaces very much anymore. And, you know, cause I, I don’t necessarily see disability resources work as, as traditional student affairs, although it can be. But I will say that as, as a professional, I have felt uncomfortable in student affairs spaces. Sure. because of what I have perceived over, you know, 20 years as a student and professional as disability is separate an insistence on person first language, even when that’s not necessarily the preference of the individual. I have just felt over the years that even though there’s a lot of good work to do I don’t want to do it, you know, because it’s too, it’s too much for me. Right. It’s too exhausting and too difficult. Right. And so I have really chosen to distance myself from student affairs, professional spaces.

Amanda Kraus:
You know, and I share, I’m surprised I shared that cause, you know, I mean, this is a, you know, really particular audience, but I’m just saying, you know, I was, I was as student affairsy as they could be and kind of felt, you know, more and more uncomfortable with, you know, certain conferences and spaces. And so I’m excited to see, you know, perhaps a new reinvigorated conversation about disability and, and maybe now’s the time, right? Like Lissa was saying, people want it now. Right. People are coming to campuses, politicized around disability in ways that I haven’t seen before, more aware, comfortable, you know, proud of disability in ways that I really haven’t even seen. I mean, even like five years ago, you know, wasn’t as as common. So, you know, maybe, maybe things are changing a little bit, but I am excited to be kind of having a different conversation in this space. So thank you.

Heather Shea:
Oh, I appreciate you naming that. I mean, I think that’s the key, right. Is for folks to take a second to think about why, why that might be right. And then what are they doing to potentially further those same harms? Thanks, Amanda. Autumn final, final thoughts. What are you thinking about now?

Autumn K. Wilke:
Yeah, I think the thing that I’m kind of like that didn’t come that I think we talked about or around, but didn’t actually like say, and so it’s, it’s what I’m kind of sitting with and I think builds off of what Amanda was just sharing it. You know, I think that there, that if there was one thing that people were gonna like walk away with is like trust that disabled people know what works well for them, like trust that disabled people are experts in what works. You know, I think that that’s what I run into so much is for myself, but also for like students, faculty and staff that I’m working with is like a built in disbelief of like, or, or disbelief isn’t even the right, like an assumption that like, we know what’s gonna work like better, this type of access, this type of technology, this type of, you know, as opposed to like, oh, I, well, I’ve always used X.

Autumn K. Wilke:
Like, can I just keep using X? You know, and I think that, that, that piece gets left, like left out of the conversation a little bit in terms of like, no, like many of, many of us have, have been navigating our disabled experience for most, if not all of our lives and have a lot of ways of knowing sort of what that means for us in different spaces. And I think that that’s a part of the, the piece that needs to be recognized and sort of honored or seen as expertise as well.

Heather Shea:
Thank you so much, Lissa.

Lissa Ramirez-Stapleton:
I think I want to go back to the pipeline of folks who have an interest in this area, right? Whether it be through scholarship, whether it be through working in a disabilities cultural center or in disability services, big picture, right? Like I, I just want to continue to encourage folks who have any interest that even if your master’s or PhD program or institution isn’t kind of focused honoring or educating around this, that there’s lots of resource that you can get information from that, like as a faculty member, I’m very used to being contacted from people across the country saying I’m really interested in this. I don’t have anyone here. That’s interested when you sit on my committee, not to be afraid to reach out to other campuses to get that mentorship, to get some guidance. I have lots of just kind of sit down chats with people that I love kind of just brainstorming.

Lissa Ramirez-Stapleton:
Like that’s an interesting dilemma. Let me think, like, you know, what, what’s happening on your campus? Like, how do you unpack that people who’ve read something I’ve written and then we get a chance to sit down and have a conversation about it. So I just think that folks who are interested in value and are invested in disabled communities and deaf communities are really open to connecting to in other campuses, right. To have conversations, to engage in the work and not to be afraid that, oh, I don’t really know enough, or I don’t have anyone here that knows enough. So I’ll just pick a different topic. Like you don’t have to pick a different topic. You know, I would stick with your topic, stick with your your genuine interest of inquiry, right? That we need more people who are thinking outside the box.

Lissa Ramirez-Stapleton:
We’re thinking differently, who are thinking futuristic, we’re thinking beyond policy and practices we have now, so that we can do different and do better. Right. And we’re not stuck in this box of the ADAS. All we have, and we’re just gonna keep moving along with like, there’s other way to think about this. And we need those minds and those perspectives and those lived experiences to be able to do that. So just continue to encourage folks who are in the beginning of the pipeline, in the middle of the pipeline, towards the end of the pipeline, and considering maybe jumping ship, like stay in the pipeline stay with us and engage in the work. And I, again, I think there’s so much that we have to do, there’s so many that haven’t been asked yet that we could stay here forever. Right? So there’s plenty of room and space for folks.

Lissa Ramirez-Stapleton:
And particularly folks of color folks like come on board, come on board. Welcome, welcome, welcome. And particularly folks who have disabilities come into the pipeline, right? We do not need only folks who are not in the community studying and working with the communities. Right? So I think as a hearing person who works in and with deaf spaces, like we need more deaf students, we need more deaf faculty, right? We need more folks with learning disabilities, et cetera, et cetera, right. Fill in the blank of whatever community. Like we need folks in the communities to also be doing in the work. And so just encourage you to come, come join, jump in.

Heather Shea:
I love ending with the call to action. That always is a great kind of sendoff. And I hopefully folks who are listening today take this as an opportunity. And I really feel like this is the beginning of a broad, broader series of conversations. I’d like to host you year because, you know, if we get this overall general perspective, like I think the nuances and the ways in which we can better kind of delve into some of the specific ways that we could serve our students better and also create the kind of change we want to see in our institution. So thank you to the three of you for your good thinking. And all of the thoughts that are now, you know, swirling around in my head. So just to sign off finally sending thanks of course, to are dedicated behind the scenes work of our production, assistant Nat Ambrosey who will do all of the work to transcribe this and make sure that’s available for folks in and if you are listening today and not already receiving our weekly newsletter, please go to our website, scroll to the bottom and you can add yourself to our MailChimp list.

Heather Shea:
And then for those folks who are interested in hearing more about our sponsors. Today’s sponsor. The first was LeaderShape. LeaderShape partners with colleges and universities to create transformational leadership experiences, both virtual and in person for students and professionals with a focus on creating a more, just caring and thriving world. LeaderShape Offers, engaging learning experiences on courageous dialogue, integrity, equity, resilience, and community building. And to find out more, please visit www.leadershape.org/virtualprograms or connect with them on any of their social media channels. Second sponsor today is Simplicity the global leader in student services, technology platforms with the state of the art technology that empowers hours institutions to make data driven decisions specific to their goals. A true partner to the institution, Simplicity supports all aspects of student life, including but not limited to career services and development student conduct and wellbeing, student success and accessibility services incidentally. So important to note that and to learn more, you can go to their website at simplicity.com. Please take a moment to visit our website again, click on the sponsors link to learn more. Again, I’m Heather Shea, thanks to our listeners, everyone who’s watching and listening today. Make it a great week, everyone.

Websites:

AHEAD Statement on Language

UT Austin – National Deaf Center on Postsecondary Outcomes- https://www.nationaldeafcenter.org/

CAST (specifically the udl for postsecondary ed) http://udloncampus.cast.org/home

Books:

Foundations in Disability Resources: Operationalizing Our Commitment to Social Justice: A Guide for Disability Resources Professionals in Higher Education https://www.ahead.org/professional-resources/publications/publications-for-sale

Academic Ableism

Disability Visibility: First-Person Stories from the Twenty-First Century

Disability in Higher Education: A Social Justice Approach

Article citations: 

(Re)envisioning considerations for disabled community college students 

Access and Integration: Perspectives of Disabled Students Living on Campus