Alonso R. Reyna Rivarola:
That’s the thing, like, you know, I think in these roles, we hauled a lot of tension, right. Because we’re ultimately part of the system like higher ed is also part of like, you know, a system that extends colonial, like colonial legacies on like logics, you know, into the work that we do every day. So how do we navigate our roles and how do we find, like, you know, again, this idea of liberation outside of our roles, but for me, liberation can not be accomplished until like, you know, all these systems are completely like demolished and, you know, and these not just the systems, not, not just the physical structures of course. Right. But the ideologies that foreground them.

Susana Muñoz:
Hello, and welcome to Student Affairs Now I’m your host Susana Muñoz. Today I have the privilege and pleasure to speak to some student affairs practitioners who have been doing outstanding work in the field as they work with and for college students who are undocumented or are DACA recipients. DACA stands for Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals. In this episode, we’ll be discussing the ways in which colleges and universities are supporting or not supporting students who are DACA recipients or undocumented. And we will discuss how the field of student affairs is fairing with supporting student affairs practitioners who have DACA status. Student Affairs Now is the premier podcast and learning community for thousands of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We hope you’ll find these conversations, make a contribution to the field and are restorative to the profession. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays.

Susana Muñoz:
Find us at studentaffairsnow.com or on Twitter. Today’s episode is sponsored by Stylus Publishing, browse our student affairs, diversity and professional development titles at styluspub.com, use promo codes SANow for 30% off all books plus free shipping. You can find Stylus on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, LinkedIn, and Twitter at @styluspub. Today’s episode is also sponsored by LeaderShape. LeaderShape is a not-for-profit organization that has been partnering with colleges and universities and organizations and creating transformational leadership experiences since 1986. With a focus on creating a more just caring and thriving world LeaderShape provides both virtual and in-person leadership development opportunities for students and professionals. When you partner with LeaderShape, you will receive quality development experiences that engage learners and topics of courageous dialogue, integrity, equity, resilience, and community building to find out more about their virtual programming, please visit www.leadershape.org/virtual programs.

Susana Muñoz:
You can also learn more about their organization on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn. As I mentioned, I’m your co-host Susana Muñoz. My pronouns are she her, hers and ella. I’m an Associate Professor of Higher Education and Director of the Higher Education Leadership Program at Colorado State University in Fort Collins, Colorado. Colorado State University resides on the stolen lands and the ancestral home of the Ute, Arapaho, and Cheyenne peoples. Let’s begin by meeting our panelists. Thank you for being here today. We’re here to discuss how the field of student affairs is supporting or not supporting students and student affairs practitioners who are undocumented immigrants or DACA recipients. Please introduce yourselves and your relationship to this project.

Laura Bohórquez García:
Everybody. Thank you so much for select for this invitation. I’m really excited to be here alongside you. And so, and my name is Laura. I go by, she, her and ella as my pronouns. I’m currently the director of the AB540 and Undocumented Student Center. And I’m currently on this and grew up in Okanagan people’s land in a small, rural farm working community in Washington state. I’m also part of a mixed immigration status family and have been organizing alongside my family and my community for about 13 years. I come to the end to this space you know, really open and to be vulnerable and open, to have a conversation of what it means to be a higher ed in higher ed currently. But also how to support undocumented students.

Susana Muñoz:
Thank you Laura.

Alonso R. Reyna Rivarola:
Hi, all my name is Alonso R. Reyna Rivarola. I use el, he, and him pronouns, and I am the Assistant Director for the Office of Diversity and Multicultural Affairs at Salt Lake Community College. I am also a DACA recipient, and I’ve been, you know, in the United States or what we know today as the United States for almost 20 years. November of 2021 will mark 20 years since I arrived. And my work has really revolved around being an activist as well as an organizer, as well as, you know, a practitioner and a scholar. So I’ve been kind of following, you know, the development of different policies that affect undocumented communities for many years. And I also contribute to research as much as I can.

Susana Muñoz:
Thank you. Thank you both for being here. So let’s get started by getting a clear understanding of who we’re talking about. Can you share a little bit with our audience some background about who are undocumented and DACA college students, what are some truths and facts that you need people to understand about this population?

Alonso R. Reyna Rivarola:
Yes. And I’m happy to start. So when it comes to undocumented students, I think first and foremost, we need to understand that we’re not talking about a monolith, right? We’re not talking about a community that looks the same, undocumented immigrants come from all over the world. First of all. And you know, having here on this stolen land for like multiple years, multiple generations it’s not a new phenomenon in the United States. It’s something that’s been happening for, you know, again, from the beginning of, you know, the foundation of this country. And currently of course, like we’re talking about, about 11 million people, you know, who are undocumented some with deferred action for childhood arrivals, some without it many or most without it, I would say and I’ll stop there for now.

Laura Bohórquez García:
Yeah. Thank you so much. And I think to go off of that, I’m also wanting to say that undocumented students are not their identities. Like, their identities are not the issue it’s as Alonso was saying, right? It’s the systems that they are a part of that we are all a part of both within higher education, but also the systems that we are all trying unlearn. I think also undocumented students are tired of capitalism. They’re tired of being exploited their time tired of being asked to navigate complex systems that don’t serve them or their humanity. And I think undocumented students are also just tired of doing the higher education’s job. So I just wanted to add that because undocumented students are also strategists and I think they are definitely ready to be acknowledged as strategists and to be able to be acknowledged as community liaisons and to be pay for all of that labor. So I wanted to add that as well.

Susana Muñoz:
Yeah. Thank you for saying that and for naming that to the space, and I wanted to just kind of touch a little bit about like, you know, what are you seeing in terms of how higher education is exploiting undocumented students that you’re, you’re naming for us and how do we change that to like, you know, like recognizing that behaviors are, and so what do we need to do to change?

Laura Bohórquez García:
Yeah. and I think something part of higher education more broadly is this constant wanting updates, constant wanting of proving something. And I think when we think about, when I think about undocumented students and the students that I work with, a lot of it is like, you know, bringing in a panel of students so that we know exactly what the issue is, well we already know what the issue is because they’ve been telling us what the issues are. And so that’s already emotional labor that they’re not being compensated for. Or that there are systems, for example, having mental health folks, you know, in that conversation to be able to do have a conversation or have a space for them to before the, you know, a panel or after a panel or whatever that, you know ask might be that’s just one way, but I also know that we’re because I’ve mentioned and financial aid and our processes in higher education are intimate for undocumented students. We’re asking them already to do that labor to call that a financial aid office to call that admissions office. Even if they’re just trying to figure out, do I want to attend this university and then once they’re attending or trying to enroll, then, then it’s another whole set of other questions. Right. So it’s that free labor that we’re constantly being asking our students to do.

Susana Muñoz:
Yeah. Thank you for pointing that out. And you know, Alonso, you mentioned that, you know that the majority of this, of the you know, immigrant communities don’t have DACA. And so can you say a little bit more about sort of that dichotomy there?

Alonso R. Reyna Rivarola:
Yeah, definitely, I think that’s a big issue that we often face in higher ed. We see that a lot of institutions of higher ed have shifted to talking about, well, two populations in particular within the undocumented community, right? So want to be DACA recipients and the other ones, this mythical creature dreamer. Right. So, and I think that’s really important to address as well, but when it to DACA recipients, we are talking about a very small population of the undocument or a very small segment of the undocumented community. We are talking about about 600,000 people, right? So it’s not a lot out of the 11 million undocumented immigrants. So we have created this divide and again, institutions of higher ed are focusing very strongly on DACA recipients as primary, like beneficiaries of higher ed. Whereas we need to really take a step back and look at the entire undocumented population, because as we start building programs that only target or only benefit DACA recipients, then we’re are already put putting our undocumented students without DACA risk. And again, it’s not realistic to only focus on DACA recipients because one that’s a temporary program that could go away at any moment, but also two, it ignores so much more of the community in itself.

Susana Muñoz:
Yeah. I see that as sort of like, you know, there’s this, this notion of deservingness and undeservingness in terms of who gets to benefit from certain PR or, you know, rights paying with DACA and those that can’t, you know, so thank you for highlighting that. I think that’s important for us to understand. So when talking about sort of how we address campus climate and college persistence, when they come, when undocumented students with DACA recipients come to our campuses, what are some of the most promising approaches that you see that universities may be doing about addressing our campus climate? So I’m making it welcoming space or you know, college persistence and making sure they’re getting their degrees. So what have you seen?

Laura Bohórquez García:
And then one of the things that I’ve seen is just being more proactive about changing campus climate in terms of like campus culture. So I mentioned earlier that we there’s a lot of expectation within the undocumented immigrant community and more so within students because as I also mentioned, not everybody has work authorization. So a lot of times they’re being asked to volunteer or do extracurricular activities to be able to, you know, build up their resume or all these things that, you know, we constantly are being told that we have to prove. And I think one of the things too, when it comes to compensating labor is that I’m seeing that more institutions are being proactive about creating their engagement opportunities for students as an inclusive fellowship or internship stipend model. And that it already is shifting the culture from, Hey, we’re going to have student workers and they have to clock in and out and have to produce this task or X, you know, thing to, Hey, we’re actually really centering the student and we’re going to have professional development as part of this internship program and etc.

Laura Bohórquez García:
And that way also it provides students who really want to engage, but also have to provide for their family or for themselves. And this allows them opportunity to get that financial support, but also engage in a way that centering them and their experience versus producing something for the institution.

Susana Muñoz:
I love that. I love that fellowship idea. And, and can you say a little bit more about the kind of programming or resources that they’re specifically targeted? I know like you have, like, you know like a dreamer center or AB540 center in California. Cause that was sort of mandated by California, right? Janet Napolitano policy. And wondering if you could talk a little bit about sort of, what other things does your office do to, to really center undocumented and DACA recipients on your campus?

Laura Bohórquez García:
Yeah. So I can give you the example of, we work with seven student interns and all of them have like a one-year appointment to be able to work with the center. Each of them kind of define what their role is such. We give them general and a general umbrella. So for example, we work with a mental health student intern and they are our liaison with the mental health, with our mental health partners. And they do a lot of help lead and co-create some of the programming throughout the year. And the way that they’re compensated is by quarter. So we’re in a quarter system and they get paid more on the front end because we already know that, you know, that first quarter, that first semester, that first year is really imperative for our students to be able to be retained, but also because we asked them to join us for a summer training.

Laura Bohórquez García:
So we know that we are asking more of their labors. So that that’s just one example, but I think overall the, we have to be very intentional to work with our financial aid office to, to create a process for that, to be able to say, this is a request to pay stipend. This is when we want the money to go out to students, letting communicating that with students so that they know when they’ll receive that funding and can also make life choices based on that. So that’s just one small area of the larger process, but knowing and communicating with our partners, and then also whenever we see things or opportunities, whether it’s scholarships or engagement opportunities for our students, we get those forwarded to our office a lot. And so now we’re getting used to we have a drafted message basically saying, thank you for this. Is this is this a stipend based opportunity, if not, is there an opportunity to create that? And then we kind of started the conversation there too. So that we also start to create that list internally for a future, you know, students engagement, but also we also get a sense of who’s open to creating the change, changing the culture within their own department, and hopefully the larger institution as we work through it.

Susana Muñoz:
That’s awesome. I really liked that because engagement is such a, a you know, a huge component of some of our universities. And in a ways, a way that keeps students sort of connected to the institution, if they find out about what the institution has to offer as well. Alonso, tell me a little bit about your institution and what you’re doing to also address you know, these issues as well.

Alonso R. Reyna Rivarola:
Definitely. I know, I love that Laura and I are here because you know, she’s in California and that’s, you know, a very blue state. I’m in Utah, so that’s a very red state. So, but nonetheless there is support in both States and, you know, it’s kind of fun to think about the ways in which we have to like model our support for students. Here in Utah, in Salt Lake Community College, we were able to open the second undocumented center resource center instead of Utah. The first one was at the University of Utah, which I had the pleasure to lead until coming here. So it was really fun to help shape both of those centers. Currently Brenda Santoyo is the coordinator, the inaugural coordinator for our undocumented student resource center here at Salt Lake Community College. But kind of the work that we do here is definitely I would like to call it an auditing process, right?

Alonso R. Reyna Rivarola:
So we’d like to audit like institutional practices through an undocument. And what would it mean to like, you know, be able to serve undocumented students, or what would it mean to recreate or rethink reimagine policies to be more comprehensive or how we can open opportunities up to undocumented students? Right. So, as I mentioned, high impact practices are something that we looked at really intentionally, especially because we know that, you know, the literature shows us that that’s what helps retain and graduate student and graduate students, as you mentioned. So that’s also something that we tried to do through like intentional programming efforts, or like, you know, being able to open up new opportunities to like fellowships and paid, you know, opportunities for students that may be that are still within the legal bounds of the institution, but that are nonetheless much more expensive than they used to be. Right. And reimagining what, you know, that, what compensation looks like for undocumented students. I think it’s also really important.

Susana Muñoz:
Nice. And so both of you talked a little bit about sort of the resources and some of the programming, can you say a little bit more about campus climate in terms of how do you is your campus welcoming? Is there a sense of belonging? What do we do to also fight those microaggressions you know, xenophobia and let’s say, you’ve mentioned that you’re in a red state and then Laura sort of in this blue state, but does it matter, right. The xenophobia still exists.

Alonso R. Reyna Rivarola:
Yeah. And I can jump back in. So for the community colleges specifically, I’ve seen that at least as far as our administration is concerned, they’re super supportive of undocumented students, which is really refreshing, right? Like we have a lot of work to do of course, but nonetheless, like, you know, they’re supportive. They want us to like, you know, be able to like dedicate resources, like hire people to work specifically with undocumented students, which I think is wonderful where as a student affairs professional what I fear the most is a classroom, to be honest, because I don’t know the conversations that are happening in the classroom. And I don’t know how professors are responding to students or what words are using to refer to that community. And again, like, you know, how are they processing like difficult conversations? Because, I mean, as an undocumented student myself, I vividly still remember being a first year student in my undergraduate institution and being in a classroom where students start using the word illegal.

Alonso R. Reyna Rivarola:
And there I was, you know, sitting before DACA ever existed. I had not, I was not, you know, out, and it was the most, you know, yes. You know, we talk about racial battle fatigue for students of color like ourselves. Right. But there’s also like, you know, a different phenomenon that also happens for undocumented students. Right. So that needs to be moved that, and again, while we do a lot of programming efforts to be much more inclusive of undocumented students and open up opportunities and resources what’s happening in the classroom and how do we collaborate to respond to those incidents.

Susana Muñoz:
Nice. Thank you for pointing that out.

Laura Bohórquez García:
Yeah. And I, I definitely agree that with Alonso in that we definitely hear more from students when it comes to reporting incidents in the classroom, or even just sharing this. Like this one, I just came from this class and they just, they had the audacity to say this, you know? And so we definitely hear more about that. And also not just even language, but also just the awareness that faculty don’t have around moments in time, like political moments. We had a lot of our students who were really transitioning right, and waiting for the election results were waiting for all of these big moments in the past summer. We were when we were still waiting to hear more about that got results. And, and so th these just bigger, larger political moments that faculty just are not, you know, being responsive to, or even addressing or acknowledging in classrooms.

Laura Bohórquez García:
And, with that, you know, moments when students, you know, know that for themselves, they just can’t attend class that day because it’s because of their mental health and they need to prioritize that. But having a hard time then following up with faculty for extensions, or even being asked to, you know, relive their trauma to explain and make a point as to why they didn’t make it. And so I think it’s also that piece that we’ve heard a lot from our students. And like you mentioned, you know, we’re in California. I think what I haven’t noticed in terms of the difference, I, I used to work at the University of Maryland and then prior to that worked with other institutions and their students in like Connecticut and other areas. And I feel like I still hear a lot of similar experiences from our students.

Laura Bohórquez García:
And I think the reason why is because we’re constantly, I feel like we’re constantly being asked to fight. We’re constantly being asked to defend and we’re constantly not allowed to rest. So I don’t think being in the blue or red matters, I think the fights going to still be a fight. It’s just a matter of the degree. I know that you’ve been just this year for this next legislative session for California. There’s a couple of conversations around some of the funding that we have on the state level for some of the knocking, the student resource centers and, and other things right. That are connected, that, that, you know, and it’s also, this year is also the 20th anniversary of AB540, institution policy. So it’s, it’s always this constant labor that I think we’re coming, being pulled into. So I don’t think, I think for me, it’s not about when I think about students, it’s not about like, if it’s friendly or like serving or not, it’s more about what we’re constantly being asked to do and why we can’t move forward. And other things that we know we can, we can envision and do it.

Susana Muñoz:
Right. No, yeah. That’s, yes. That’s a real, yes. Thank you for, because I think it’s what you’re naming too, is like, our institutions are rooted in white supremacy. And so this is what they have to, this is what, you know, minoritized students have to navigate. And once we start to undress and have a racial reckoning with, you know, how our institutions were founded, our system isn’t necessarily going to change. Right. Yeah. So the other thing that you mentioned that I think was like, I hear a lot is faculty, right? And so even on my campus, it’s, you know, it’s, it’s hard to get faculty to really understand it and get some understanding and knowledge about how you know, those microaggressions occur and how to facilitate those conversations. Do you have any strategies that, that you are using with how you’re training faculty or talking with faculty?

Alonso R. Reyna Rivarola:
Well, like I mentioned, I think it’s really important. Right. And I think the key thing is like creating time and space within classrooms to address things, right. Like, for example, with the elections, that was a big moment to address, but also with the recipient of DACA or the data DACA has like students, like, you know, or not DACA paths, but excuse me, the day that the Supreme court upheld DACA as soon as we’re still expected to be in classes, like things just go on as if nothing were to happen. And like, we need to be much more critical and conscious and careful, and, and honestly like approach that issue with more grace and say, okay, like, let’s hold some space. Can we talk about this? Can we invite people? Can we be much more understanding of, you know, what students might be experiencing that day?

Alonso R. Reyna Rivarola:
And, you know, it’s like, yes, the syllabus is obviously important, but this is more important. Or, you know, I would argue like as important or even more important than the syllabus, just because it’s real, it’s affecting the students in real time, like. And how can we expect a student to learn when they’re like facing all these, like, you know, insecurities or emotions, you know, in the classroom. So I think those moments are crucial. So I really appreciate when people like, you know, reach out to our dream center. But I’ll foreground this with, I love it when people reach out and not just reach out with the question like, Oh, what can I do to help? I hate that question. My favorite thing is when people would reach out to us with a plan or an idea and say, if we were to do a 5k and raise money for scholarship for undocumented students, would that help?

Alonso R. Reyna Rivarola:
Yes. Like that’s, you know, here’s our logo go for it. Like, you know, that’s coordinate details, let’s go, you plan it. You know, we support it 100 or if I were to pay, to bring in attorneys to talk about immigration policy, would that be helpful? Absolutely. Like, you know, let’s look at, you know, some good people to bring into campus. Like let’s compensate them fairly. And that’s even maybe like pay them to like, host some like private consultations, like with students, but do it. But when people come and they’re trying to be so humble and say like, Oh, what can I do to help? It’s like, I have no time for this. I’m sorry.

Susana Muñoz:
No, that thank you for sharing that. I appreciate that because I think, you know, that’s sort of it also, you know, gets people to own some of the work, right. By bringing those ideas, that it doesn’t just fall on your shoulders that other people have at stake in this work as well. So I appreciate that. And so switching gears a little bit with, you know, we know that the Trump administration, you know, field the racism and racist nativism in the United States, through his, you know, phobic and racist rhetoric, in your opinion do you see the Biden Harris administration, reproducing racism and racist nativism, and he’s similar to the previous administration. And so I just kind of wanted to, to get to what are your opinions about and understanding that, you know, racist, nativism and racist rhetoric, didn’t start with the Trump administration, right? That it’s always been there as part of our country, but wondering how you view this incoming administration in terms their stance and and ways, or they’re trying to not change or to reproduce, or even, you know, if you think that they are changing. So just kind of wanted to get your opinions about that.

Laura Bohórquez García:
Yeah. I think the first thing that comes to mind is just like this emotional tug of war and emotional roller coaster that I think is continue, it’s continued. And I think when I think about like Biden Harris, they were, they’ve both been in their office. Right. They’re in their positions, not current ones, but previously. And they’ve both been a part of the deportation of a lot of undocumented immigrants. And so I think them having this new title isn’t necessarily changing anything, I know that they have already deported a lot of black immigrants and then there beginning of their term. And I think the other piece too, is that there’s a lot of I say tug of war and like emotional rollercoaster, because there’s a lot of this, like we have these plans and we’ve, we’re introducing these new ideas are not new ideas.

Laura Bohórquez García:
I don’t know, 4.5 million. I feel like it feels like sometimes right. And it’s like, Oh, give us time. You know? And so when our students are hearing that, it’s like, well, we don’t have time. We need something to happen. And so I think I, when I think of them being in their office, when I, when I was like also an undergrad and graduate student and they had different roles I was also like an undocumented student going through that, through that journey. And I, and I look at students now in the students that I work with and I see some of the same reactions of, you know, I’m just kind of, I’m just really tired. I’m tired of I’m tired of this game. So I would say definitely still doing, doing the same things and repeating the same cycles, just not as bluntly and as open about being racist as a previous administration.

Alonso R. Reyna Rivarola:
Yeah. For me, I would definitely like, you know, agree with that. And I also like, you know, for example, like the institution that I worked for, like sits on Eastern Shoshone land. And for me, when I look at the issue, of course, they have to like, look at it through a lens that, you know, that it’s really critical of like settler colonialism. Right. So I mean, the simple fact that they are there, they will only serve to continue them legacies of colonialism through their offices jobs. Right. So for me, nothing has really changed, I guess, like the packaging is different, but the spirit is the same. Right. So yeah, to me, the battle continues. Right. And even if we moved towards like legalization, which again would benefit so many of us because including, you know, I’m not going to lie, it would benefit me too, but nonetheless, we have to be really critical of what does that mean? What does it mean to be included as part of a settler colonial nation, right. Like what does that mean to be included as part of that project? Is that something that we should strive for at materially? Sure. Like it would help us, but like, you know, in terms of our integrity, like, is that something that we really should strive for it, like, you know, I think those questions need to be raised and are often not

Susana Muñoz:
Oh, yes. I love that, that, that framing, because I think, you know, we’re talking about liberation, right. And liberation you know, can’t be really necessarily founding these, you know, white normative structures. And so where, where do we find liberation? And I guess that’s a question I want to pose to you all where, you know, where do you find your liberation? Do you feel, you know, in this, in this fight, you know, in terms of that, where we’re engaging in these conversations, is there such as liberation?

Laura Bohórquez García:
I think that, you know, ask me that question every day and it’s going to be a little bit different, you know, and also the time of year, but I definitely feel like I’ve been able to find liberation and community. And a lot of the times it has even been with current, the current student staff that I’m working with because we, we are asking ourselves these questions and that’s when we start to really reimagine and continue to have hope that, that we may not see the liberation that we’re seeking, but that we’re building towards it. And so we know that it’s not these larger construct, you know, constructs and systems, but even within community, I think for myself, I’m finding that liberation. And then also just letting go and really focusing on the, the ways that are perpetually colonialism, the ways that I perpetuate all of these systems has been very hard work and very hard work, you know? A lot of like vulnerability has to happen in a lot of like accountability for myself. And I think that for myself individually has also been it’s been my pathway to liberation. I don’t want to exit this life and like being also a colonizer.

Alonso R. Reyna Rivarola:
Sure. Yeah. I mean, yeah. And that’s the thing, like, you know, I think in these roles, we hauled a lot of tension, right. Because we’re ultimately part of the system like higher ed is also part of like, you know, a system that extends colonial, like colonial legacies on like logics, you know, into the work that we do every day. So how do we navigate our roles and how do we find, like, you know, again, this idea of liberation outside of our roles, but for me, liberation can not be accomplished until like, you know, all these systems are completely like demolished and, you know, and these not just the systems, not, not just the physical structures of course. Right. But the ideologies that foreground them. So for me, where I find maybe not liberation per se, but like peace is definitely like what I mentioned with community.

Alonso R. Reyna Rivarola:
But also for me, it’s like intentionally moving myself away from this, these imaginaries that are, you know, that center whiteness. Right. So, or that center, like, you know, European thought, I purposefully pulled myself out of those imaginaries and insert myself into others with my community, my people, all my friends, like, you know, and that not necessarily center those logics to kind of like, not ignore them because they’re still there, but to not center them. And I think that’s really important for me and and the work that we do, especially to like, again, keep some form of sanity, but again, the tensions that we hold within ourselves and trying to like navigate and see these systems that were not built for us, not made for us and, and not intended for us to ever succeed or like, you know, the rate ourselves honestly.

Alonso R. Reyna Rivarola:
Right. Because like all of these systems to keep us oppressed at some level one, or to be a product that’s, you know, like a worker in, within a capitalistic system or whether it is to, you know, continue to perpetuate to like the school in a large, extra, like, you know, our different roles in like policy and like, you know, in government or like even in the workforce then, you know, I think that we have to find ways in which we resist that on the daily, but I also fear resistance because to some extent, resistance also centers whiteness, right. Because you’re purposefully like centering whiteness to like fight it. And it’s exhausting. Like I mentioned, like the work that, the work that we do in centering that every day and fighting it and resisting it’s exhausting, it’s so important, but so exhausting. So yeah.

Susana Muñoz:
Yeah. Thank you for yes. Yes. Okay. Yeah, I think you’re right. You know, we are centering that resistance with what we’re trying to fight, which is white supremacy and whiteness. Yeah, I didn’t, I, you know, thank you for framing it that way. Cause I really never thought about it in the in that fashion. So thank you for that.

Laura Bohórquez García:
Yeah. I recently took off a loan. So what you were sharing, I recently saw on social media cause you know, other great things sometimes are on social media. There’s horrible things too. But something along the lines of like our ancestors didn’t dream for us to be surviving like they did, they actually, they didn’t want us to have to keep fighting. And I really thought about students in terms of like, when I hear the framing of like, Oh no, I have to do this. Like I need to graduate. I need to set, you know, pay forward the sacrifices of my family by continuing to. And so then I repeat back to students then that means that we are, you know, we are, and like you as a student or as a person, then that means we’re centering productivity, we’re centering capitalism, we’re centering these things. And so that really made me think about like that, that content on social media, but also what you were seeing that long so that we, that yeah, we have to constantly push back on like this mentality, that and socialization of all these systems.

Susana Muñoz:
I love that. Thank you for both, for those insights. And so switching a little bit in terms of our, our field Laura, I know you and Deanna were part of establishing the Undocumented Immigrant and Allies Knowledge Community at NASPA. And so what are the ways of which the field of higher education student affairs has changed or not changed to, in order to support the practitioners who are DACA or undocumented? It’s been five years, right? Yeah.

Laura Bohórquez García:
Oh my gosh. We’re almost a preteen.

Laura Bohórquez García:
Wow. Yeah. I, I think we’re still not supporting practitioners with funding. We’re still expecting them to do their job and five other roles of community liaisons of experts and, you know, national policy and all of these things and being underpaid. Just the example of I know join in on some research, right? Alongside California and other States around their coordinator roles. And a lot of the pieces there where that, you know, what, at least what I took away that was really important was that everybody was doing director level or above work and we’re getting paid for coordinator positions. Right. And, even as a person currently now in a director role, I still feel like I’m getting under paid. And and so I think it’s, we’re definitely expecting all of these miracles to happen without funding is to, to still happen in silos.

Laura Bohórquez García:
I think about like all of the centers that have been created to support POC students or POC staff and right. And whenever something happens within diversity equity inclusion or, or that identity particular identity, then all of a sudden we turn to that center. So in this case we’re turning to DACA coordinators or like undocumented students center directors. And it’s our job, meaning the one staff that you have to fix everything for the institution, but also to communicate it to everyone, including your students. So I think it’s, I’m still seeing a lot of like lack of funding, but lack of support like capacity, like really just capacity people, people power to be able to do the work. But also I think going back to like the systems where we’re constantly having to just explain that this is the work that has to happen. And so because we have to spend so much energy on that we can actually inact some of the strategies that we already know work.

Alonso R. Reyna Rivarola:
Yeah. I love that. Thank you so much Laura. And that makes me think of like, you know, also like the inequality within like the work itself, when it comes to like, you know, the number of people who work at these centers, right? Like for example, many of them are one person centers literally, right? Like you are the marketing director, the actual director of the center that budgets specialist, you know, the crisis specialist, everything. Right. And you get pulled into all these meetings because everything undocumented suddenly falls on you. Right. And that is not okay. But also having a center gives us so much more visibility, which is great and also taxing because then, you know, I think it, then the man so much more labor on our end, because as I mentioned, like, you know, then we are expected to like do the work of like, you know, director level positions that are underpaid or, you know, multiple director level positions that are also underpaid.

Alonso R. Reyna Rivarola:
But then I also fear for the folks who don’t have centers and are picking up on that responsibility outside of their roles and not outside because I mean, it should be part of everyone’s roles, right. Like working with undocumented students should be everyone’s in theory, but we know that someone on campus will naturally not naturally, but forcefully, I guess, feel the need to pick up on that particular responsibility on behalf of the population that they care so much about. Right. So and also alongside that, yes, many of those are student affairs professionals, but I want to give the biggest shout out to, you know, our custodial staff, like people had foot services who so many times become those professionals for undocumented students. I mean, I cannot give enough, thank you, to the people who worked at the cafes, like, you know, at my university that people who work with field staff, who I would go to and could actually have a conversation with about my status or about being undocumented or about being an immigrant or what it meant to like work so hard or how to support their children and going to college.

Alonso R. Reyna Rivarola:
And, you know, and there was always perks like here grab a coffee, you like it’s on me. And you know, it’s like those little moments that honestly, like those are also my student affairs professionals. Those are the people that I looked up to. Those are the people that helped me get through. Right. So I think it’s really important to also consider, you know, the role of fellow immigrants, whether undocumented or not, who become these undocumented pros, you know, like by virtue of the work that they do, but who they are. And honestly, because institution is failing undocumented student.

Laura Bohórquez García:
Well, you’re where you’re bringing up for me. And so it’s just like community care. Right. and I think a lot about that too, because in my previous role at the University of Maryland, those were the folks that gave me all the community, including campus like tea like the cheese and the, like the download, and this means this is how you navigate these spaces. This person has been in this office for this long. And then, you know, when it, when we were like, I was like, wait, what? So I just learned so much campus context and history that isn’t seen as context in history. They were part of my onboarding team too, and that was not their job, but we understood that that was part of like us both navigating the campus and the institution. So, yeah.

Susana Muñoz:
I love that. I love that, you know, our, our service workers and those that are often invisibilized by our institutions are also the creators of our own retention packages, our own, you know, our knowledge creators and so forth our students as well. So I appreciate you bringing to the space. I remember even like going to an institution once and and even looking at their resource center for undocumented students, and it was all, it was literally it looked like a broom closet. Right. And so it’s also sort of the cosmetic and sort of these, you know, the office space right. In where the office is located and, you know, and what, what, you know, it could only like two people could not be in that space. And so it’s like, how do you meet with students here? And so it’s also communicating, you know, messages to students about their worth about their value. Right.

Susana Muñoz:
So I’m hoping that your offices are a little bigger than what I saw before. So what about your, how you were prepared in graduate school? I’m curious you know, what were some of your successes and limitations and harm, you know, of how your, your master’s programs prepared you to work with and for undocumented students and DACA college students. That’s interesting to me, as a director of a Higher Ed Leadership Program, I’m always curious about sort of how you were prepared to do this work or how, how, how, how your colleagues were prepared in your cohort to do some of this work, and then you’re laughing. So I’m like, yeah.

Laura Bohórquez García:
I laughed because I I was going through my graduate program as I’m like an undocumented prior to DACA. Right. And I was like the quote unquote person that was tokenized to figure out things for the institution at the time. So I was trying to navigate that and trying to navigate my graduate program. And I think the other, the ways that I wasn’t prepared as it was just, there were so much focus on student development theory and none of it, you know, centers, we already know BIPOC community members. And I think the biggest thing that I remember from my program too, was just this constant, like, you know framing and like pushing to like work with partners and campus partners, which I, I understand, but it wasn’t a framing in a way that was like, if your student has a question around safety campus police.

Laura Bohórquez García:
If your student has a question about this, you know, like it was a very not fluid and not very systems informed. Like it was it’s like, I know that I’m not going to call campus police, If a student has a question about safety because I understand enforcement and the relationship with immigrants. And so I think it was very harming in those ways, because I know that I was one of a handful of women of color in the program and just in general people of color in the program. So I know that all of my white colleagues are out there and I’ve already seen some of them, right. Like through different venues that have reciprocated and has caused harm to their students and have actually reached out to me to say, Hey, this happened, I want to make this better. And, and so then it’s, it’s kind of, it’s, I, we know that it’s not working. We know that, you know, programs are not working when we’re being called. Now as called, we expect to say, Hey, I did this harm. Can you help me fix it? And then I think we’d go back to the cycle of unpaid labor, that institution in this case we’re supposed to, we’re supposed to do you.

Susana Muñoz:
Yeah, thank you.

Alonso R. Reyna Rivarola:
Absolutely. I completely agree. Laura. And also for me saying like, you know, in my graduate program, at least in my master’s, like, I don’t think we were ever given like, you know, even one reading on undocumented students and even that one reading would have not have been enough. Right. Again, there’s so much complexity that we cannot dismiss it. And again, just say, Oh, here’s one reading on undocumented students go, we didn’t have that enough. Of course. Like all my papers were about undocumented immigrants. Well, knowing that my research that I wanted to do for my master’s program was on undocumented students. But like you mentioned, like no theories that, you know, were relevant to like that particular experience, or like not practical recommendations in terms of how to support undocumented students going through like, distress. Right. So that was not hard because it was expected, right?

Alonso R. Reyna Rivarola:
Like, I mean, sadly like my, my expectation of the program itself, like I knew I was not going to be offered that, so, and that’s not okay. Right. Like it’s not okay to have that level of expectation for a program to be like, I’m entering this program while knowing that it’s not going to address my needs, my population of interest or the research of interest that I have in mind. And just to add another fun. And I say that, right, like another set story. I started a graduate, a PhD program in my former institution also while I was working as the inaugural director for the undocumented student resource center that we had, and the most awkward thing happened. Right. So I applied for graduate admissions. I got into the program and and after I had my interview and I told them that I was undocumented, I walked by back to my office at the dream center and they called me from the department and they said, Oh, hi, like, you know, we’re from the sociology department, we have a student who we just admitted into a graduate program. Can you tell me like, you know, what we can do for undocumented students?

Alonso R. Reyna Rivarola:
Yeah. I know. I wish it would have been like, Oh, I’ll give him full funding, but, I had to tell him like, Oh, you know, this is what our instincts, we should policy look like. I was like asking questions, like, do you know if the student attended Utah High School? Like, you know, and they couldn’t answer those questions. And I knew it was me obviously, but I was like, Oh, this is so awkward. Yeah.

Susana Muñoz:
Oh my gosh, I love that. So crazy, I’m so sorry that happened. And we need to do better. We just need to do better. Yes. People in student affairs practitioner programs, we just need to do better. But I appreciate you all sharing that. And as we you know, wrap up and you know, this, as you know, this podcast is called Student Affairs Now. So, so take a minute to just summarize. What, what are you pondering questioning excited about troubling now? What, where are you at now.

Laura Bohórquez García:
Before I answer that? I just want to add to the previous question in terms of just programs. I think that one of the things that I’m seeing is that more folks are interested in working with undocumented students. One because they themselves identify as undocumented and two, because there’s obviously this need, right. And I think one of the things that I’m noticing too, is that programs aren’t preparing folks to do salary negotiation, because this is a new quote unquote new right area in higher education. And I say, air quotes share air quotes, because it’s not new. We’ve been doing this work for a long time. It just hasn’t been as institutionalized, even though we still have a lot of work to do so. So it’s been really hard to negotiate salaries because there isn’t things to compare it to, or, or things that are kind of comparable or not are still, you know, as we’ve mentioned are still being underpaid positions that are still being underpaid or work.

Laura Bohórquez García:
So I think that’s something that I think is also harmful when we’re thinking about folks that are going to be working with students. But also just acknowledging that that’s going to be a fight something they’ll have to do for self-advocacy and what I’m pondering. And I think just I’m really looking forward to kind of exploring in their group dialogue with their students in a way that also incorporate some of the history, you know, of the, of the US the history of the institution their own history and connection to their family or community and incorporate more of that wellness aspect like that, that mental health aspect and that liberation, I think there’ll be that we’ve all kind of been talking about that we, we know exists. But that that, that continues to kind of bring me that hopefullness with us.

Laura Bohórquez García:
But I really am, I’m really looking to kind of start to create more of that work in a way that’s entering students and not, not leaving folks feeling like, wow, we’ve gone through a lot of. And our systems, you know, are not, you know, are they are what they are, because that’s how they were created. Like, I want us to feel hopeful when we learn about these systems. And so that means that a lot of like proactiveness and building and, and community awareness. So that’s what I’m kind of moving with right now.

Alonso R. Reyna Rivarola:
I caught that as well. And for me, I would add a couple of things. One, like I want student affairs professionals who pushed back against the dreamer narrative, I think like locally we have called our centers our undocumented center research centers, dream centers, because it’s more, much more palatable for people who are like, maybe like an immigrant, right. And it’s like, Oh, dreamers are cute, but undocumented is not right. So I want to really push back against that because it also helps like separate and recreates is like, you know, they caught me up the good about immigrant and like, you know, really helps like perpetuated and I’m not okay with that. You know, at some point I had really bought into it. Like now I’m like, no, no, thank you. That’s not, that’s not the route that we should be going. Second is that I mentioned like, you know, we need to pay undocumented immigrants, whether it’s students, professionals, whoever for their physical, emotional, intellectual labor, I think especially the last, not especially the last two points though, our optimism is like, you know, intellectual and emotional labor.

Alonso R. Reyna Rivarola:
Again, we asked students to join a panel, let’s give them a gift card. You know, we asked professional staff to join a panel. Let’s give them a gift card to like, that’s totally fine. We need to compensate their knowledge, certainly where their experience. And finally, for more scholar, practitioners and scholars as well, I would say, that people need to engage Reid’s site undocumented immigrant work, right. And hold it as central to their theoretical frameworks that they use called it central during like the foundations of the work that they do. And they need to be literally like the nucleus of their literature reviews, right. Because oftentimes their like undocumented knowledge is seen as additional or extra. And we often keep fighting, you know, us citizens in this research. And we need to stop that push away from that to really center undocumented, you know, intellectuals, voices, narratives, and to perpetuate their work reading about this population.

Susana Muñoz:
Yes. Thank you for, thank you for that. And thank you for those final words. I think those are really important. Something for me to keep in mind as well and for my colleagues to keep in mind. So my heart is happy. Thank you for all your contributions for this episode. And for helping us just to understand the critical issues and the thing, the topics that are facing undocumented students in higher education and beyond. So listeners, you can receive reminders about this and other episodes by subscribing to the Student Affairs Now newsletter or browse our archives at studentaffairsnow.com. Thanks to our sponsors today, LeaderShape and Stylus, please subscribe to the podcast and find others to subscribe, share on social media or leave a five star review. It really helps the conversation like this, reach more people and build the community so we can continue to make this free to you. Again, my name is Susana Munoz, thanks for our fabulous guests today. And thank you everyone who is watching and listening and make it a great week. Bye.