Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
So often we just stay in motion in motions, in motion is because then we don’t have to feel anything. You know, like if you’re kind of moving at this really hyper, like just speed clip that you’re just like, I can’t look within, right. Like I don’t want to look within, I don’t want to slow down. I don’t want to feel this. So I think when we can look honestly about like what the reality is, some landscape it’s going to require some grieving and mourning.

Keith Edwards:
Hello, and welcome to Student Affairs NOW, I’m your host, Keith Edwards. Today. We’re talking about navigating trauma and overwhelm for ourselves as communities and organizations. I’m joined by trauma exposure, pioneer and expert Laura van Dernoot Lipsky. Who’s the author of Trauma Stewartship and the Age of Overwhelm. I’m so excited to learn more from you today. Laura. Student affairs now is a premier podcast, an online learning community for thousands of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays. Find details about this episode or browser archives at studentaffairsnow.com. This episode is brought to you by Simplicity, a true partner, supporting all aspects of student life with technology platforms that empower institutions to make data driven decisions, visit them at simplicity.com. And this episode is also sponsored by Vector Solutions, formerly EverFi, the trusted partner for more than 2000 colleges and universities, Vector Solutions is standard of care for student safety, wellbeing and inclusion.

Keith Edwards:
As I mentioned, I’m your host, Keith Edwards, my pronouns. Are he him? His I’m a speaker consultant and coach. And you can find out more about me at keithedwards.com. I’m broadcasting today for Minneapolis, Minnesota at the intersections of the ancestral homelands of the Dakota and the Ojibwe peoples. I’m so excited had have the conversation. I first learned about Laura from several really wise and smart folks recommending trauma stewardship. And I really was taken aback in reading the book and the stories that really resonated and connected with my own experience, the deep social justice lens, and also the New Yorker cartoons, bringing some humor to it, and then recently reading the age of overwhelm. And we recently had a, or not recently almost a year and a half ago had an episode featuring myself and some other folks who had written a piece about trauma stewardship in student affairs and higher education near the, what we now know is the beginning of the pandemic.

Keith Edwards:
What thought then was maybe the middle or nearing the end. And so I’m really grateful to have you here to help guide some of us who want to go about how we navigate our work individually, community and organizations a little bit differently. So Laura, thank you for being here. And you’re a trauma exposure expert. You’ve worked with many different organizations dealing with suicide prevention recovery from natural disasters and so much more. And you’ve taken that wisdom been put in these two books. What else would you like to share with us in terms of helping folks get to know you a little bit better?

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
Oh, well, thank you so much for having me, Keith, I’m really happy to spend some time with you today. You covered it well, it’s great introduction. So not much more I mean, yeah, do all sorts of trauma work and education and am very, very, very passionate about working with adolescents and young adults for so many reasons. So particularly happy to have this conversation with you today.

Keith Edwards:
Yeah. Wonderful. Well, let’s begin as, as good academics do by laying out our terms. So could you maybe just, just kind of map a little bit for us when we’re talking about trauma and overwhelm and some of your terms of trauma mastery and trauma stewardship, how could you kinda sort lay out some definitions and differentiate some of these for folks?

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
Right. So, I mean, let’s, I’ll go the least clinical route here. So when we think of primary trauma, you kinda think about putting a lens on your camera, that zoom lens and that’s like where you’re really going in very, very specific to when one has survived something that one would, you know, describes it as themselves. And sometimes we don’t describe it for ourselves, but other folks might identify it as being traumatizing. Part of what’s challenging about these definitions is, you know, it, and it’s subjective, right? So what might be experienced as trauma by me, you know, you, Keith could be chilling, right? So it’s personal, it’s subjective, which is part of the reason we want to have a lot of grace and a lot of humility with each other and try to have, as I say, Buddhism, a beginner’s mind about this because it really, it really is very, very individual in that regard that it’s not across the board, but, you know, trauma, we often think about something that fundamentally shifts one’s world view.

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
Like it, it is a fundamental, this is hard to over podcast cause I’m using my hands, but you’re like, it’s a whole shift in your worldview, right? So that’s kind of primary trauma that something that you have experienced, again, there’s a lot of overlap here, but than vicarious trauma, we think more about bearing witness about when you are out in the world and you are living your life, you are caretaking in whatever way you might be caretaking or you’re doing, you know, whatever work you might be doing or whatever studies you might be studying. And as a result of what you bear witness to you feel like the landscape looks different to you. And that can be, you know, suffering hardship, crisis trauma of humans as living beings or ecologically what’s happening on the planet. When you have that exposure, there could be vicarious trauma.

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
As I said, there could be a lot of overlap. You can imagine somebody experiencing both with primary trauma and vicarious trauma, and then I’ve been talking a lot more over the last, I mean, well before the pandemic, but many years, not as long as been talking about trauma and vicarious trauma, then there’s overwhelm. So overwhelm is kinda where you pull the lens all the way back, put on that wide angle lens and overwhelm can really just be any, any sense of like, wow, you know, life is a lot, I got a lot going on in life. So those are the, the three layers that I often talk about it. And, and for me it’s always within this larger context, an awareness of structural supremacy and systematic oppression and understanding how that contributes to where we are. And I think part of, you know, part of what I’ve been spending a lot of time working with folks on is, is acknowledging that before two years ago, you know, pre pandemic, there’s plenty to talk about, you know, I don’t there wasn’t anybody in the state of Nirvana who I know before any of this, but part of what’s been really challenging over these last couple years is you’ve got the pandemic, you’ve got all the structural supremacy and thematic oppression surfacing.

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
Obviously it’s not new, but it’s surfacing in these horrifying ways. There’s a climate crisis, also not new, but accelerating in absolutely awful ways. And then regardless of where any of your listeners were at politically, I don’t know anybody who’s like with what’s happening with our democracy. So you have, you know, whatever you came in with to these last couple years and folks a lot, there’s a lot of depletion, there’s a lot of fatigue. There’s a lot of overwhelming event. Then you have these four additional layers. And it’s a lot. And then, you know, then there’s a whole longer conversation of the intergenerational transmission of trauma and oppression and epigenetics in that piece as well. So yeah. Again, that’s kind of the least clinical way to think about those are some of the different things that we talk about.

Keith Edwards:
Well, I really appreciate that. And I want to come back to then trauma mastery and trauma stewardship, but I just imagine our listeners who are on call, alcohol poisoning, sexual violence prevention, mental health issues suicide ideation. These are things that student affairs professionals are dealing with both directly with students, but also indirectly as we case manage and navigate this. And then of course the overwhelm of all of the things that go on of longer hours, more emails. I hear from folks who they’re missing, 30% of their staff while the workload has gone up of people have left to do other things. And so the overwhelm that comes with that and then these broader systemic structures and oppression coming in. So I think this is really salient and, and we’re here not just to name these things, which I think many people are doing and is really important, but also begin to talk about how we navigate that. So tell us a little bit before we get it into the individual community organizational levels. Tell us a little bit about trauma mastery and trauma stewardship.

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
Okay. Well with trauma stewardship again, nonclinical here, but the way I think about trauma stewardship is understanding that there is suffering in life. And so moving away from trying to resist it and trying to kind of go up against it. So, you know, Buddhism talks about this. Neuroscience talks about it. They rhyme everything neuroscientist. They’ll tell you whatever you’re going to, you know, whatever you resist you’re going to is going to persist. So instead of kinda trying to approach suffering and hardship from, from a place of resisting, part of what we want to do with trauma stewardship is while this is my approach, always working for social justice, always working for environmental justice, always working dismantle systems of oppress supremacy. Also understanding that there are ways that we need to, you know, says, learn to cradle your suffering, that there, there ways that we need to understand what is within our control and what is not within our control and what we have agency over and what we don’t have agency over.

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
And so that piece of trauma stewardship, there is a way that we approach. There’s a way that we, you know, if it’s from your work or from your personal life, but understanding that it needs tending to, it needs to be cared for not just struggled against right, and not just resistance. So of course the oppression we’re tending to that, or we’re resisting that, all of that, but there’s this, these deeper layers of what the consequences are and how do we care for that and how do we be really mindful? How do we be really intentional and how do we have, you know, slow down enough, which is often very hard in our work to have a contemplative practice around it. So that’s trauma stewardship, trauma mastery, whole. Okay. So now that’s the whole separate chapter. So with trauma mastery, we look at that.

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
One of the hardest things about primary trauma for humans is the out of control, nature of primary trauma. That that’s part of what makes trauma trauma is the out of controlness of it. So when we talk trauma mastery, we look at that, you know, humans forever have recreated situations as similar to the traumatic incident as possible because we tell ourselves this time we’re going to have a different outcome. So you can think about it in terms of three realms. One is activities. Two is your relationships and three would be like work or how you spend your, or, you know, even what you focus your studies on, right? For the young people you’re working with. So for example, I live in the Pacific Northwest, an activity would be, you would try to go summit a mountain. Something would not go well for you during the ascent.

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
And trauma mastery would be a year after that accident, you would go back and you would do the exact same thing. And you would tell yourself this time I’m going to have a different, it’s not always that conscious, but that’s essentially what that looks like with an activity with relationships. We see this all the time. And I you know, I know you’re working with a lot of young folks after high school and in university and college and higher ed. So this could be that experience where you’re like, why do, why are, why are my three of my six friends, the same annoying type of person? Like, what am I trying to work out in my friendship? Right. That I always have this type of friend, right. Or that feeling like you’re, you know, you’re dating your brother. You feel like you’re, you know, you’ve hooked up with somebody who reminds you of your, like something where you’re like, what is going on in my relationship.

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
Like I’m trying to sort something out here. So in the past we’ve often thought, I mean, it’s, it’s often very clear with domestic violence or you know, abusive relationships where you’re like, oh my God, like here I am in this thing again for the third time. But I think we can all have a lot of humility around this because even if we haven’t been in relationships that we would identify as, you know, whether there’s violence or abuse, I think we can all look to like one or two friends or one or two relationships where like, what am I doing? Like what, what am I trying to like, reconcile? What am I trying to work out here? And then the last place we see this is with our work or how we’re spending our time. So again, sometimes it’s conscious, but sometimes it’s not conscious.

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
So, you know, you might have somebody come in and want to study neuroscience cause their mom was schizophrenic, but was never diagnosed with schizophrenic. And there’s all this harm and suffering as a result of that. And they might not be aware that they’re super, super interested as an undergrad in neuroscience, but that comes not just from some like, Ooh, fascinating neuroscience, but you know, like, wow, there was all this trauma that I grew up with and I want to better understand what was going on with this person I loved. Right? Yeah. So that’s a way it could show up and certainly in work. So, you know, some of your colleagues might have stumbled into the work they’re doing, but I imagine a lot of your colleagues are doing the work knowing they’re unknowingly because they are trying to reconcile something from back in the day in their own lives, right. Either things did not go well for them in university or, you know, maybe one of their dearest friends took their own lives 15 years ago and they have been on a suicide prevention, you know, focused track. So that’s trauma mastery where it’s not bad or good, it’s not right or wrong, but it’s where we are either consciously or unconsciously spending our time in a way that we’re trying to reconcile something.

Keith Edwards:
Yeah. And this has been in a theme in the conversations we’ve been having lately is that I think many student affairs professionals get into it because they had a wonderful college experience and they want to replicate that for other people or they had a horrible college experience and they want to make sure that that doesn’t happen to other people, which could be the trauma mastery. And then one of the things that, so, so deliciously tempting is in these roles, we get to have so much influence with people who are struggling so much, whether that’s coming out or suicidal ideation or wrestling with alcohol and substance issues or systemic oppression and it’s many different forms. And one of the unhealthy ways that that gets manifested becomes our identity. And then our identity becomes being the savior. And then if your identity is being the savior and fixing these things, then you work all the time, always available, always on, never a break. And it becomes a really unhealthy dynamic. And you’re sort of illustrating to me how trauma mastery can be a part of what we’re trying to work out there.

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
Right? Yeah. That that’s, that’s beautifully said. Yes. And it’s, you know, it’s complicated because part of what’s I think really gets very fraught about this is I don’t want to totally over generalize, but you know, I don’t think anybody looks to the United States is having a strong suit in grieving and mourning. You know, a culture here in the United States is grieving and mourning. And so part of what can be hard is when you survive a trauma often in the United States, there’s just not a lack of, there’s not a lot of support for the grief and the loss piece of it, the grieving and the mourning. And on the contrary, there’s a lot of support for holding it together and sucking it up. And, and honestly being very, very productive and even hyper productive around it. Right.

Keith Edwards:
Just fixing it rather than moving through.

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
Well, yeah, definitely not moving through it because that would take like time and that would take some intentionality and that’s not how we roll in the United States, but it’s that whole thing of like, you go through something and like, you’re going to get props. If you start a foundation within like 10 days of some horrific thing happening in your life. Right. So it’s like, it’s that level of like lack of ability to let your heartbreak and your mind be blown and really that kind of decompensating that needs to happen. So then what can happen with trauma mastery is then we can think, and this is, you know, coming from me who was like the queen of that. So I come, I come to this conversation with a lot of humility is, you know, you can think, okay, well, if I work a hundred million hours a week, that somehow that is going to tend to this place of hurt within that this like broken heart, that this is going to tend to that original trauma.

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
And it doesn’t because there’s nothing inherently healing about doing any of this. So there might be healing elements, but, you know, for example, you with where you’re working you’re in these very, very large systems and structures, and let’s assume well that, you know, there’s never an intention to cause are, but they’re often not nimble. They’re often not flexible. So both as a student in those, right. And as somebody who’s working in those, you can be thinking, oh, I’m tending to this trauma over here and I’m going to like make this better over here. But because of all the ways that those systems and structures operate, it can actually be like, you’re keeping these really significant wounds open. And there’s nothing there. There’s just every, everybody who’s listening knows this who’s been through anything. Like there’s nothing that is going to substitute for, you have to walk through that fire of grieving and mourning.

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
Like there there’s no, there’s no substitute for that. Right. Right. And so we can be distracted and we can do incredible work. And we can like put a lot of time in over here, but that is not going to touch what needs to happen for our own grief and our own loss. But I think to your point, part of what gets really hard is in a larger society where there’s not the support for the grieving and mourning, it can get really, really confusing. And let’s remember, you know, the systems that you’re in and someone other people are in people will just take anything you have to give. So if you’re willing to work a hundred thousand hours a week, it’s very rare that you’re going to find a place that’s like, no, really you should pace yourself. Right. Like slow it on down. Let’s let’s find a sustainable culture. A lot of those places going to be like, yes, please give us a hundred thousand hours a week because we’re so over deployed.

Keith Edwards:
Yeah. Well, I really appreciate this. And I think that you you’ve already made it clear that you really do think about what the individual can do and the systemic, what can organizations do and what can the people we’re in relationship with do. And I think a lot of times we get caught in this sort of either, or, this binary thinking about, should we focus on the individual and sort of psychological responses of resilience and recovery and healing and see a therapist and do these things, or should we focus on the systemic response of changing systems of oppression and structures and the capitalist system that we’re in. And you really have pushed back on this binary thinking and talked about it in terms of how do we do this system change, work sustainably and, and bringing that in. So we want to, I want to talk about this at the, what can we do as individuals, and then what can we do in communities?

Keith Edwards:
The people we work with, the teams, the folks we’re in staff meetings with our families. And then how do we do this as organizations? Cause we have folks who are listening, who maybe don’t feel like they have a lot of organizational power and authority. But how are they going to navigate the context that they’re in? But we are on teams. We work with people all the time. And then we have listeners who really do have a lot of organizational power and authority and decision making, who as you were saying, let’s assume have the best of it. Intentions, what can they do? So let’s begin with the individual, if an individual’s feeling overwhelmed or they can see overwhelm coming from a head, it’s not here yet, but I can see it. What can they do themselves to help navigate to a healthier way of being?

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
Yeah, it’s a great question. So just so I, I want to make sure I’m understanding, are we talking a student we’re talking one of your colleagues we’re talking, it can help.

Keith Edwards:
Yeah. I’m thinking about student affairs professionals themselves. What can student affairs professionals in the work environment who, who see trauma in students who probably are feeling over, or if they’re not, they see their colleagues feeling overwhelmed and how can, how can we as visuals navigate this?

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
Right. Right. Well, okay. So I mean, I think one of the things that’s really, really important is being able to acknowledge with a lot of compassion, which I know might not be a lot of your colleagues strong. So, I mean, for self I’m sure there very

Keith Edwards:
Right. We’re good at others, ourselves. Not so much. Yeah, exactly.

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
Exactly. Most of us our compassion our strong suit is not self-compassion. So I think part of it is trying to just pause if possible and acknowledge with some compassion, you know, where our intentions for doing what we’re doing, it’s coming from, like, just being able to have some self appreciation and some just kindness towards self of like, all right, right, right. Like I get what you’re going for here, but this is not, this is not going to be sustainable. And I think that part of what is really, really important to me, just because of my work is getting called in so often after horrific things have happened is we want to be try, we want to try to be very proactive and very preemptive. So I think maybe we have all had experiences where like, God forbid something really significant happens.

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
And then we have all this clarity of like, oh man, I gotta, like, I’ve gotta like change this, you know, yesterday. But part of what we’re trying to do through trauma stewardship is be really proactive and preemptive. So we’re not getting to that point of, oh, wow. Now I have all this clarity. We want to be really clear four, something really significant comes down. Right. So I think part of it that, that requires some, again, some insight and some self-awareness and having some kind of a contemplative practice to be able to even acknowledge my body is hurting. You know, like I get headaches all the time. I’m clenching my teeth all the time. I’ve broken two teeth. Like my neck is always tense. I feel fatigued all the time. Like just something of just like, oh, wait, I’m feeling this in my body. And then having some awareness of how we’re doing in our, just our mind and our heart and our spirits, you know, like the, our own mental health.

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
Right. And I think, you know, this can be very, very hard with what you are saying in terms of, if folks are seeing something come down, because so often again, part of the reason we might be really good at what we do is because we’re so hyper focused on others. And so part of trying to do my work is trying to encourage people to like, yes, and we can do that, but also have some self awareness and like, how am I actually doing, knowing that the first place we see harm, like the first place that harm is going to happen is going to be in our own health and that’s going to be physical health and it’s going to be our own depression, our own anxiety, our own PTSD, our own OCB, all, all of that. And so if we, I mean, I mean, if someone sees it, overwhelm is like there or approaching you know, then, then it’s making a decision.

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
I, I want to do something about it and I’m willing to do something about it before God forbid things get like really, really, really to a place that I can’t come back from. But Keith, as you know, so often what’s hard is like, we be very evident that things are very overwhelmed and all that’s happening and we just, for whatever reason, we’re not seeing it. And that’s, I mean, that’s certainly how I came to my work around vicarious trauma was like absolutely having no self-awareness around that, even though I was blessed that I had a lot of people pointing out to me that I was tripping and I needed to do something. So that’s, that’s the other piece I could be really hard is, is not having a self-awareness. And that goes to your other piece about the other level. That’s why we so imperative that we’re surrounded by at least one or two people who feel like they can say something to us really directly and really explicitly whether or not we listen, that’s a whole nother thing, but at least that we’re not doing this in an isolated way.

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
And I don’t mean just isolated in your apartment during the pandemic, isolated that, I mean, like that, that we are willing to do this work in collaboration so that you’re able to say to at least one or two of your colleagues, like, Hey, self awareness might not be my strong suit and fact, I mean, there’s all this research that, you know yeah. For humans, we’re not our own, like, that’s how it is. But being able to say like, if you see me tripping, like if you see me getting grandiose, if you see me being completely obsessive, if you see me, like not, you know, like it’s not your responsibility, but like please say something to me. Yeah. You know? So I think that that’s, it, it kind of depends if, if we have our own self awareness around it, right. Or if we don’t have have that.

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
And then once you do have that, then, then what do you do about it? And then what do you do about it is hard, because that often means like you gotta change gears. Right? We’ve gotta have more balance. We’ve gotta like slow it down. We’ve gotta be more mindful. And for many of us who move at the pace we move and have the level of devotion we have, whether or not there’s trauma master involved, like a lot of us, that’s not what we’re wanting to do. Right. We’re not, it’s like very, very painful to have it be more sustainable. Cause just in our minds they were like, oh, that’s like eight more, you know, eight students I’m not going to see. And like this whole other committee I don’t get to be on. And it just feels like so much loss.

Keith Edwards:
Right. I guess I’m organizing before we move to the, how we help others, but I’m organizing the, the self work that you’re talking about in self-awareness and self-management how do we take that pause? How do we do that? Introspection? How do we be use contemplative practice to really be aware of what is going on with us? And then the other part of that is the self-management. How do I be proactive and preemptive about my physical health, my mental health, my emotional health. And those of course are all in, are connected. We like to separate out the brain and the body, but that we know that that’s not the case. And you’re pointing that, that the people we’re in community with supervisors, coworkers loved ones, friends, even if they’re just noticing on zoom meetings can help us be aware when things are off and when things are different. I think so many of, of the colleagues that I’m thinking about have a sense that this is too much and it’s not good, but they keep pushing forward anyway. There’s sort of a, I can’t help myself perspective. And if I don’t, I don’t, I’m a rate of what will happen in the world with students, with others and with me.

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
Right, right. Yeah. Right. And right. And, and I think that’s where the systemic piece is so important. Right. So like what I look for in really healthy environments where we work I mean, same thing, you know, for students where they’re studying, but I really look for an environ that is very very focused on and able to, and willing to prioritize sustainability. So that, that, it’s, it’s really, really important. I mean, yes. You know, I’m not naive. And I know like a lot of folks are not working in those environments, but I want, I always want people to know what they’re, what they deserve and what they’re title to that they deserve to work in an environment that is not full of martyrdom. You know, they deserve to work in an environment where, you know, student affairs, wherever they are is not saying like, okay, we’re having our employee of the year banquet and you’re the employee of the year.

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
Thanks for being on call every single second and never calling in sick and, you know, pushing through both mono and COVID, that was awesome to come in and just essentially, you know, never taking time to eat or go pee for the last five years. Like you’re the employee of the year. Like that’s, that is not any, we really, really, really want to move away from any kind of martyrdom. OK. Yeah. But for a lot of folks, that’s just not the reality where they work. A lot of people are not working in a place again, even if it’s well, intentioned, there might be working in a place that’s quite frenetic, quite scarcity based this whole place of like, we’re not doing enough. We should be doing more. And when that sense of scarcity and freneticness collides with folks own internalized oppress and own sense of that internal like scarcity, like you’re saying is where people feel like they’re absolutely losing their minds.

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
So ultimately yes, we do need individuals to be able to have anything within themselves, to be able to say like, look, I deserve this in my workplace. Here’s how it should be. It’s not what’s happening. And I, I just know for myself, I cannot keep doing this or a lot of harm is going to happen. Yes, that, that we need that. It shouldn’t be like that though. Right? Right. Like it shouldn’t, it shouldn’t be on an individual to make these really, really painful decisions. What I look for in workplaces is I want a protective barrier. I want, you know, there’s, society’s over deployed in completely bananas, right? The field you all are working in is completely over deployed right now. So when we do this work, what I look for is I want folks to have where they’re working some kind of a protective barrier of, okay, that’s all true.

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
And that’s heartbreaking and it’s mind blowing and it’s incredibly fat and tragic and, you know, just ineffable. And also we are not going to dismantle the harm out there while we’re replicating harm in the work we’re doing here at student affairs. Like, well, we’re trying to like tend to all these young people. We cannot be dismantling all this oppression, dismantling everything that is so deeply problematic and harmful out there while we’re replicating it here. Even if it looks noble, you know, even if it looks like, oh, look how earnest. That’s just not how it is. That’s, that’s not how it works. And so I, for me, it’s very important that people understand what they deserve in a workplace, even if it’s not happening, because then they can go, you know, to their, whatever gear they have to find within themselves of, okay, well, I should be in a place that it has these protective mechanisms.

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
That’s not the case. And what’s most important to me right now is like, I couldn’t care more about the work I’m doing, obviously, but also like, I am not trying to succumb to an extreme amount of depression in my own. Like I cannot have my cancer kick back in. Like I can like understanding, like there are very, very significant consequences, health wise and mental health wise. Right. And so folks being able to be like, yeah, no, like this is my work means a lot to me. And I also literally need to stay alive. Like that’s also a priority and that’s, that’s one own health. And then there’s also our personal relationships. I mean, that’s the second place we see a lot of harm in our personal relationships and probably, you know, many your listeners probably have had that experience where once or twice, you know, in their career, they’ve had somebody you know, a loved one say, you know, I have no idea how they say, you’re so good at what you do at work because you totally suck at home or in our relationship.

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
And that’s, that’s the other place. We see a lot of harm it’s in our own personal lives that where we bring our best selves is often to our work. It’s not to our personal lives. Yeah. And so, so part of this again, is I think we’ve all see we’ve all experienced, or we all know folks who are able to a very significant change and get recalibrated in the aftermath of something really, really, really awful happening. Whether that’s a diagnosis or whether, you know, that’s something that really extreme, that happens in one’s life or in a colleague’s life. But part of how, how do we do this without getting that point where something so horrific happened, and then we have clarity. We want to have that clarity from the jump.

Keith Edwards:
Well, and I guess I’m hearing what we can do with those who, who we’re in community with as supervisors, as supervisees, as coworkers, as team members, as family members, is we can check in with people. We can ask how they’re doing. We can care about them, not just as employees, but as people and providing feedback about that. And, and also I also heard not rewarding validating and affirming the behaviors we don’t want to see not role modeling them ourselves and beginning to use agency to, to advocate for ourselves and for others. Right? What, what, what is it that I need and what are the things that I need that aren’t just me, everybody needs this. So how do we move that from something I need to, here’s something that we do as a policy or a practice in the organization,

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
Right? Yeah. And with what you’re saying, you know, I’m doing a lot of work right now in college is, and universities and you all are in good company with, with many other systems again that are not necessarily able to be very, very nimble and very flexible at any given time. And so what I support folks in your field and, you know, in hospitals and then courthouses and these larger institutions understanding that, it’s one thing. If you come to this work and, or, you know, you’ve been in this work, let’s say your landscape. I mean, I think work for you all has been hard for a long time. And again, there’s been these last couple years, but it’s one thing if you come to this work and you’re like, okay, it is very clear to me that this is like, just absolutely off the chart in terms of what the needs are and the lack of resources, like how many needs there are, we don’t have the resources for it. This is completely just from just, just, I have this clarity that this is an over deployed system. Yeah.

Keith Edwards:
You understand student affairs very well.

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
You know, and like, I am going to choose to work here and I’m going to choose to bring my a game and I’m going to do everything I can, but here’s the thing I will not internalize any of this. Like, I am not going to internalize the dysfunction. I’m not going to internalize how, like the roots of how all this went awry. Whenever it went awry in terms of being over deployed, I’m not going to internalize that there’s way, way, way, way, way more need than there is resources. Like I’m not going to internalize it. I’m up every day. I’m going to do you the best I can. I will bring my a game. I will be committed, but I’m not going to internalize this. Right. That is very, very different. Like having that approach now, again, I’m not easier. It’s not like that’s anything I’ve ever done well in my life at all.

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
But having that approach is very different than if we show up. And because of our degree of our degree of dedication, our degree of caring, our own trauma histories, whatever it might be that we show up. And somehow we think that I’m not doing enough. I should be doing more. And in fact, if I did this and this and this and this, then maybe I could like outsmart this whole thing. Right. That’s is what really, really messes with you. That’s what keeps you up at three in the morning. That’s what has you not attend? You know, your own kid’s soccer game because you’re still at work. That’s what has you miss your like loved ones, you know, celebration. I mean, that’s that like level of obsessiveness, right? Yeah. So that’s a very, that’s very different than it’s like, if I’m approaching this from a place of like, I’m internalizing this and it’s connecting and it’s very easy to do, right? Because it connects my own internalized depression of my work is saying, I’m not doing enough. And I should be doing more. The field is saying, I’m not doing enough and I should be doing more. And that connected deeply with something inside of me where I feel like I, myself am not enough. And I should be more for my own internalized depression. I mean, you can see how that, like, it’s just such a perfect storm.

Keith Edwards:
Yeah. Again, you’re connecting the internal experiences with the systemic experiences. But you work with so many organizations, as you’ve mentioned, your hospitals crisis centers so many more. And, and you’re, you’re describing, I think a story about higher ed that higher ed has that we’ve recently proven wrong. We have this story that higher ed is not nimble, not flexible and slow to change in March of 2020. We change it and dime overnight, everything changed. So we prove we can do it, but as, as some colleagues have pointed out, now’s our chance to prove we can not just do it overnight, but we can do it well. And I think there’s so many of us that are really willing organizationally to in radically new directions. We’re not sure what that is. What have you observed from organizations that has really worked to in terms of the policy and the practice level that has really helped to address some of these things and helped the communities and individuals do some of the things you’ve already mentioned?

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
Yeah. It’s a great question. Well, I mean, I think part of it is being able to be honest, right? Part of it is being able to really, really direct forth when humans are overwhelmed, what we need is we need access to very clear, forthright, direct, explicit, concrete information. Right? So that, that ability to be honest, I think is something that’s very, very important. And so being able to look at what you’re working with and being able to say, look, here’s the reality. Didn’t I mean, okay. I’m, I’m like, you know, I didn’t so work, I’m a catastrophic thinker. So, you know, I might not be the best person to ask about this, but I don’t see things getting easier for the students who you are serving. I mean, not like I’m not seeing less depression, I’m not seeing less suicidality. I’m not seeing less sexual assault.

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
I’m not seeing less drug and alcohol. Like, I, I don’t know that I’m not seeing like, Ooh, just hang in their keys. I’m sure by November things are going to be awesome. Right. So I see the needs increasing, as far as I know. I mean, you know, this way better than I do, but I, I’m not seeing the resources matching that increase of need. So I think part of it is just being able to be honest of, there is so much pain right now in society, and there’s so much harm that has come to young people and so much that they are struggling with again, before the pandemic even. Right. Yeah. And now there’s, there’s a lot. Okay. And there’s a lot that we’re not going to know for some time, I think in terms of neuroscience and the brains and all of that. So I think just being honest about like, Hey, there there’s, there’s so much going on right now and we absolutely do not have the resources currently to tend to all this, or just being realistic about what that calculus is.

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
OK. Then from there being able to allow some space for feeling, allow some space for grieving and mourn, because I think it has to, it, part of the reason. So often we just stay in motion in motions, in motion is because then we don’t have to feel anything. You know, like if you’re kind of moving at this really hyper, like just speed clip that you’re just like, I can’t look within, right. Like I don’t want to look within, I don’t want to slow down. I don’t want to feel this. So I think when we can look honestly about like what the reality is, some landscape it’s going to require some grieving and mourning. I think it’s going to require some like ability to just like, let your heart break and let your mind be blown and have that experience of like, this is so painful. Like this is so painful that like, how is, how is it year we’re in?

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
And we’re still dealing with this much sexual assult, how would we still not figure out how to decrease suicide? I mean, like what is happening? So letting adults kinda have a tantrum, you know, like letting adults actually kinda have everything early childhood and your big feelings and really like, feel deeply about it then once you have the honest, like lay of the land and you’ve had some ability, you have some time carved out to feel, not just once, but you have that as a value that you’re going to feel along the way. Then I think you can go about the business of, okay, now let’s figure out how we can be strategic about this and how can move forward in a way that our ethic, our ethic that guides and binds all of us is do no harm. Right? How can we move forward with this ethic of doing no harm?

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
And first and foremost, obviously, yeah, that means not doing any harm to the students, but before that happens, you have to have people working there who are healthy. I mean, who, who were actually like, who, who like physically, their bodies are not tanking and they’re not every single day combating their own depression, their own anxiety, their own PTSD, their own OCD all of that. Right. And because it’s not, it’s just, I think, I think that it is, it is, we are fooling ourselves. If we think we can focus on like, do no harm with the students we’re serving. If we do not have an ability to be very introspective and understand what that looks like. If, if I’m one of your colleagues, Keith and I am not well myself. Right. And also the other piece is if we don’t have good morale. So if you are so stressed out and I’m so stressed out and we have three other people on our team, and obviously, you know, like, like deep down, we appreciate each other, but we just are hating on each other right now. And there’s so much stress. There’s so much conflict. And anytime you say anything in a staff meeting, I feel like I want to assault you. You know, that’s not like, it’s just like, there’s so much anger and tension and frustration and everything that can. Right. And so if I’m not, well, my and Keith, if you and I are colleagues and I just am projecting everything on you, and I just think you’re a total, you know, whatever, like, that’s all, what are we like? We can’t do good work with that either. Right.

Keith Edwards:
Well, and how

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
Do part of it is being realistic? Like we have to be realistic about the resource issue and what we’re able to do. And then there has to be time to actually feel metabolize those feelings. And then from there, then I think we can be really intentional and strategic about what we can do and what we can do well.

Keith Edwards:
And what we have to do differently and what we have to stop doing and where we, I think we just need a paradigm shift. We can’t just say, well, there’s a greater needs. We’ll just do more and more and more. We need to rethink how we do this, right?

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. No, it’s not about you because this is what happens. This is the, this is the internalized oppression piece. It’s that you’re like, oh, I know how to do more. I’ll go from sending 20 emails a day to 200 emails a day. I’ll go from serving on 13 committees to 300 committees. I like when it, when this whole scarcity piece that we’re in this larger ecosystem, tap in our own internalized oppression. We, that place of like, oh, this is what I’ve done my whole life is I just do more. It’s I still never feel like I’m doing enough. I still always feel like I should be doing more. Oh, but I know how to do this. And then you have folks just putting their head down, sucking it up and powering through. But it, first of all, it’s not as ethical.

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
That is not an integrity based way to do it. And it’s certainly not sustainable. And, and to your point, often things will change. Yes. Things totally change when needed to, I mean, it was a pandemic for God’s sake. Right. And you see this places that sometimes change things change after suicide. Sometimes they, after a campus shooting, again, God forbid, God forbid, God forbid. Right. Right. But part of this is how do we make a decision that if we want to do this work from a liberation based practice, what does that look like to do that? And that is going to require us having some honesty and also being able to metabolize our feelings around it. Then we can be like clear seeing, you know, in terms of like, okay, like, this is what we can do. This is what we can do well. And what it means to do well is mean we’re not exploiting our colleagues.

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
Yeah. And it also means like, we’re not, we’re what we can do. What we’re serving the kids, we’re doing reliably for these, I work with so many young people in colleges that it, it is like, I can’t even describe you how much advocacy they’re having to do to get into a counseling session for themselves. Like nobody wants that nobody at a counseling center in a university set it up so that kids couldn’t access counseling, and that they’re getting to run around, even though when they say they’re suicidal, but nobody has ever wanted that. But that’s the reality at a lot of places. So systems are over deployed. And we think like, by like just, you know, not having clear parameters or not saying no or anything that like, maybe that’s in the best interest. Cause we just, again, you have all these colleagues who are so dedicated, so devoted, but it’s a systemic piece that is perpetuating this. And unfortunately, then you’ve got individuals who need to use their, like access to their intelligence and their insight and their awareness of like, hang on, this is going one direction and it’s not going to end well, right? Like we’re in over our heads here.

Keith Edwards:
One of the things you repeated again and again and again, in your book, the age of overwhelm, which I really appreciated with less is more. And it was such to a wonderful each time I was reading it as there’s all of these strategies about how I can deal with overwhelm less is more, we don’t want you to be overwhelmed about how you’re addressing your overwhelm. And I’m hearing this here as well, less is more, what really? Where do we really want to focus? How to be intentional about that? So I appreciate that. We are running out of time and this podcast is called Student Affairs NOW. And we always like to end by just inviting our guests to share what is it that you’re thinking troubling or pondering now might be something that you’re really focused on in your work and kind of on the cutting edge of your thinking, maybe something that’s just really present with you. And then we’d also love for you to share. Well, if folks can connect with you, your team at the trauma stewardship Institute has given us many, many things that we’ll share in the char notes from books and resources, individuals and handouts and podcasts, and more, but what are you troubling now and how folks can folks connect with you?

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
Mm okay. Well, I mean, what really continues to be at before, and again, I admit that, you know, with the work I do and just how I move through the world, that I might not be the most hopeful person right now. So part of what is, is, is the four of mine for me is, is how are we going to continue to create conditions? So folks can metabolize everything that is heartbreaking right now, everything that is mind blowing right now, everything that has a lot of folks can in a deep sense of shock right now, how do we metabolize that in our nervous system? How do we metabolize that in the nervous system of where we live of where we work of, you know, for you, your campuses and your communities our regions, our country, how do we, to our nervous both individually, collectively, and continue to metabolize everything we need to so that we are not getting to a point of saturation again, individually or collectively.

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
And certainly that we’re not getting to a place of rupturing, which I think is happening so much as we get saturated. And then there’s this rupture that happens. And specifically with that is I think given that for me, I’m not really seeing an end in sight anytime soon for so many of the things that you have astutely raised, you know, like, I don’t, I mean, not seeing an end in sight anytime soon, pandemic wise I mean, it’s going to shift and yet this is still going to be a long haul. I’m not seeing an end in sight, certainly for oppression. Folks are working on it, of course as they have forever. But you know, that, that is that that’s not ending anytime soon, the climate crisis, same our democracy. So it’s hard, you know, it’s really, really hard for humans when there’s not an end in sight.

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
That you can really wrap your mind around, right? So part of it is how do we both tend to everything that we’ve been going through and simultaneously shore up for what has to come, not in a embracing way, you know, not in like a catastrophic thinking way or a future tripping way, but how do we make sure that we as much care as we can for ourselves and as much cradling of that suffering as we talked about earlier while also knowing that, okay, there might not be a light at the end of the tunnel for a while for some of these things, and where are those reserves going to come from?

Keith Edwards:
Right. But you’re talking about,

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
I don’t, yeah.

Keith Edwards:
You’re talking about hope being proactive and preemptive about cultivating our own sense of hope. You’re reminding me that just like gratitude isn’t necessarily feeling, but a practice. How can cultivating our hope be something we put intention to so we can move forward in the ways we want to.

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
Yeah. I mean, I think there’s, there’s hope and there’s also there’s also being very realistic, right? There’s also being very realistic about like, this is what the current landscape is, you know, and certainly it’s different. I mean, again, personal, it’s different, different for everybody, but trying to be very, very realistic. And from that place, you know, Buddhism talk about like wake up to the present moment, like really waking up to like, OK, here’s, here’s what is happening. And given that, what do I need to do to make sure that I am not becoming saturated day after day and getting to a point of rupturing again, that can be individual or collective. Right. And then what, what is my plan for how, for the long haul here, I am going to be able to tend to myself and tend to my loved ones and tend to my work and, you know, tend to these larger collective responsibilities that we have.

Keith Edwards:
Yeah. we’re going to, like I mentioned, we’re going to share so much in the show notes about places where people can connect with you and the Institute and the work that you’re doing. What do you want to highlight and mention here?

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
Well, so yeah, I mean, on our website, there’s there’s resources, Ted talk interviews, there’s a lot of handouts that folks can download, you know, just for free there something that might be of interest to your colleagues and the young people you work with as well is I, we have started a podcast. So the title of the podcast is Future Tripping. It’s on all the platforms where you find your podcast. And part of what is really important to me about what we’re doing with the podcast is we are wanting to make sure that to the best of our ability, that young people, young adults, adolescents folks, you know, in higher ed can find support for themselves there. So every other week we are focusing on either we’re having somebody on who is a young adult, an adolescent themselves, or somebody who, you know, specializes or has something particular to offer.

Laura van Dernoot Lipsky:
And people can write in with their questions or call in and leave voice memo questions. We really want it to be interactive, even though it is a podcast. So we want to take questions and you know, anything that we can do to further support folks who, or young adults, adolescents through topics covered in this podcast. We are really wanting to do that. And every podcast we’re going to make sure that, you know, there’s strategies involved and everything. But that’s something that might be of interest both again, for the folks who you’re serving and then also for your colleagues to be able to learn both, you know, from peers, but also, you know, like listening in on these conversations with, with young adults about what is at the, for of their mind, what’s really weighing on their hearts. What’s feeling really loud in their minds recently. So that podcast is called Future Tripping. And the Instagram is @futuretrippingwithLaura. And then just, you know, I mean, any, anything that I, or my too can do as a resource, I just want folks to know that I really, really available myself.

Keith Edwards:
Yeah. Well, thank you. And, and we’ll link to that. Of course, we’re big hands, a podcast. And so our listeners, if they’re listening but I also there’s so many resources on your website that you’ve really made available. Visuals, handouts, great resources will provide all of that and more in links in the show notes. Thank you so much, Laura, for taking time to join us. This has been terrific. Thank you so much for your work, your books, your insights, and everything that you’ve shared with us today. I also want to thank our sponsors. Yeah. Thank you. Oh, I want to thank our sponsors. Simplicity and Vector Solutions. Simplicity is the global leader in student services, technology platforms with state of the art technology that empowers institutions to make data driven decisions specific to their goals, a true partner to the institution, simplicity, supports, all aspects of student life, including, but not limited to career services and development student conduct and wellbeing, student success and accessibility services to learn more, visit simplicity.com or connect with them on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn and Vector Solutions.

Keith Edwards:
How will your institution rise to reach today’s socially conscious generation? These students report commitments, safety, wellbeing, and inclusion are as important as academic rigor when selecting a college it’s time to reimagine the work student affairs as an investment, not an expense for over 20 years vector solutions, which now includes the campus prevention network, formerly EverFi, has been the partner of choice with more than 2000 colleges and universities and national organizations. With nine efficacy studies behind their courses, you can trust and have full confidence. You’re using the standard of care for student safety, wellbeing and inclusion transform the future of your institution and the community serve. Learn more at vector solutions.com/student affairs now, and a huge shout out to Nat ABRO, the production assistant for the podcast who does all of the behind the scenes work to make us sound good. And if you’re listening today and not are already receiving our weekly newsletter, please visit our website student affairs now.com and scroll the bottom of the homepage to add your email to the MailChimp list while you’re there. Check out our archives. I’m Keith Edwards. Thanks again to our fabulous guest today, Laura, and to everyone who is watching and listening, please make did a great week. Thanks everybody.

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