Susana Muñoz:
What sort of has been like the joy of this for you?

Larry Ebbers:
Well, you know what it is,it’s students and relationships. That’s I mean, that’s, that’s how I live my life. It always has been obviously a background in student affairs, background, community colleges, all student centered kinds of things that I enjoy, helping people move to what I call their next level.

Susana Muñoz:
Hello and welcome to Student Affairs NOW. I’m your host Susana Muñoz. Today is a special treat. As I get to interview my dissertation advisor, mentor friend, Dr. Larry Ebbers. We’ll learn about his career, his wisdom, and his insights into the field of higher education and his work with community colleges. I’m so excited that you agreed to do this Larry. Student Affairs NOW is the premier podcast and learning community for thousands of us who work alongside and adjacent to the field of higher education student affairs. We hope you’ll find these conversations, make a contribution to the field and are restorative to the profession. We release new episodes every week on Wednesday. So find us at studentaffairsnow.com or on Twitter. This episode is brought to you by Stylus, visit Styluspub.com or use promo code SANow for 30% off free shipping and free shipping, this episode is also sponsored by LeaderShape. Go to leadershape.org, to learn how they can work with you to create a, just caring and thriving world. So, as I mentioned, I’m your host Susana Muñoz, my pronouns are she her, hers, ella, I’m an associate professor of higher education leadership at Colorado State University. I am hosting this conversation today from Fort Collins, Colorado, which is the ancestral Homeland of the Ute Arapahoe and Cheyenne’s people. So let’s get into our conversation. Dr. Ebbers. Welcome. Glad to have you here.

Larry Ebbers:
Thank you, Susana. It’s really good to reconnect with you after several years here, although we’ve always been in contact. So yes. It’s a pleasure for me to be with you.

Susana Muñoz:
Yes, I was trying to figure out like, what did I first meet Larry Ebbers? And I, I want to say it was when I was trying to maybe getting hired as we used to call them minority liaison officers at Iowa State University for the college of education. And I think either you were part of my search process or you were an associate Dean at that time. I can’t remember.

Larry Ebbers:
Well, it was combination of things. Okay. One is, I knew that you were an undergrad graduate of Iowa State, but I did not know you as an under graduate. But I knew you, but became known to you as we were recruiting minority liaison officer, but also at the same, same time, Mark Harding in admissions was trying to recruit you to come to the admissions office. And we were good friends and we had worked together on a number of projects and he said, well, he said, do you know us Susana Muñoz? And I said, well, I know her from the Colorado State program and said, well, she’s getting her master’s in. She’s interested in looking and coming back to Iowa State because her family is in Iowa. And I said, okay, let’s so we had, we made a deal that we would recruit you.

Larry Ebbers:
And we would both recruit you and then you could decide which position you wanted. And of course, obviously we had agreed that whoever hired her, paid the, all of the expenses with regard to this. So he came in, interviewed with both of us at the same time. And we obviously, I obviously used the pitch to get you into the college of education, and to become a part of part of our program. And so that sort, the rest of that is history, as we know, you were very effective and then we got, you got you into the doctoral program and really from there you’ve really blossomed. And so it’s, it’s been a great experience and, and a great relationship over the years.

Susana Muñoz:
So I agree. I would say, so I did not know about the little the back, the fact that the work kinda deals that you are we’re making, but that’s awesome to know that from all these years, but I do know that when I was a doctoral student, you know, one of the things that I really appreciate learning about, and because this is something we didn’t really learn about in my master’s program was just about the community colleges and, and the community college mission. And so I would love to kind of talk a little bit more about that, but first, you know, I also, you know that you have been in higher education for well over 40 years.

Larry Ebbers:
About 55.

Susana Muñoz:
55 Oh my gosh. Okay.

Larry Ebbers:
Now that I’m retired, I retired after 50 years in higher ed, 50 years, and then, but I still continue to work with community colleges and also other other institutions of higher ed as well.

Susana Muñoz:
Oh my goodness. Awesome. So how have you seen higher education shift over time? I’m sure over 50 years you’ve seen a lots of changes in shifts, but in what ways have, have you shifted over time? In what ways have you seen higher education shift over time?

Larry Ebbers:
I think we’ve all had to shift over time. I think it’s one of the exciting things about higher education is the challenges that come to us and the opportunities for us to make change and to work. I think that probably several things that I’ve seen over time one would be more inclusive, more diverse student bodies I think which has always been a mantra of mine and that we are inclusive institutions and that we’ve seen major movements in that arena. And so I’m, I’m really happy from that respect. I am as you know we have lots of students in higher ed as our conversations say that we need to work on the pipeline and for administrators who are representative of these groups. And I think that’s pretty widely known. We’ve seen it in terms of teaching, seen it in terms of representation at the administrative level. And oftentimes student affairs is one area where we do see a lot more diversity than we do in faculty ranks.

Larry Ebbers:
I think there’s a real concern I see now about the public trust. We’re seeing something that’s that is new to us. Yeah, I think that we those of us who were first gen students and, and moved through and watched all of this even though the census bureau indicated we have the highest level of education 30 some percent post having a master’s degree, there’s there appears to be a lack of trust about higher education and what it’s doing. And so I think that’s something we really need to work on in terms of restoring that trust. I would say that, you know, we we’ve been in a difficult time. The pandemic is a real example of that and that we’ve responded in various ways to it institutions have done a lot of different things.

Larry Ebbers:
And, and I’ll talk about that a little bit later. I think it’s also a concern about the financial resources. We see more and more states and other institutions focusing on resources and what ultimately involves is raising tuition for students. And we’ve seen some movement there in terms of free community college, but that’s probably not going to happen right now for a variety of reasons. But I think that you know, states have, have, have while higher education was in a leadership role in many states for a long time. There are so many other competing interests now with respect to resources and everyone at the same time is trying to cut taxes. And so it’s it’s the resource allocation. I think that’s been a real surprise on the other hand, we’ve all been through you know, I remember some years there were no increases for five, no, increases it in the institutional resources from the legislature. And so it’s resulted in rising tuition, but I think it’s a overall, it’s a, it’s a concerning trend to me. So,

Susana Muñoz:
Yeah, no, I, you know, one of the things that you mentioned was about the public trust, and I wanted to see if we can focus on little bit more because you’re in Iowa and I know there have been some efforts in the past to dismantle tenure, and I know this happens in other states too, but but I also know it was interesting to see how some of the ag businesses kind of came in, in defense of, of higher education. I just kind of want to get your thoughts about.

Larry Ebbers:
Well, I agree. I mean, I, you know, I have great trust in our president, Wendy Winterstein who served as, as the Dean of agriculture and life sciences for a number of years. I know her personally, I’ve known her for many years, but she really did go, I understand to, to bat on the tenure issue, particularly how much, how important it is to, to college universities that particularly in AG sciences have people who can come in and do the kind of work that they, that they need to do. You know, we’re right in a phase now, you know about 10, but it’s always been a discussion point. It was even a discussion point at my doctoral of whatever we call at that point time qualifying, whatever it was. And my major professor for my undergraduate a said, oh, Larry, what do you think about tenure? I said, oh, I said, I think you can do without tenure. I said, you know, and that was back in 60 what, 67 or 68, something like that.

Larry Ebbers:
And but you know, I’ve really come to appreciate tenure at this point. I can tell we have enough time. We could, I could tell all kinds of stories about being a tenured professor and making change and, and all of that sort of thing, but, you know, so it’s one of those things that’s always been, there has a little fuel right now. But I think as people realize the importance of tenure and the decisions that are being made that you know, the Chronicle, what last week featured a series of professors that were denied tenure and it’s so it will always be a continuing debate with the academy. So,

Susana Muñoz:
Yeah, no, I, I would agree with that sentiment too. So in, and focusing a little bit about your own trajectory and your lived experiences. I know that just from what I know from you, you kind of came from like an AG education background, is that correct? How, how do you go from ag education to community colleges? So what, what was how did you get interest in that?

Larry Ebbers:
Well, lemme tell you a little bit about I came back actually to work. I was teaching agriculture in Ohio high schools, and we were running all over the state all over the, our part of the state to get a graduate class. They were Ohio state professors were coming out and teaching the classes. And so I had an opportunity. I worked in residence life as an undergrad, as an RA. We didn’t, we called ’em HRs at the time. And so I, I had become good friends with Chuck Fredson, who was a major leader in housing in this country who recently passed unfortunately. But I lived to be 91, so that’s but anyway so I came back in residence life and I finished my master and couple of people said, well, why don’t you go on for a doctorate?

Larry Ebbers:
And I said, well, do I need to go someplace else? And they said, no, we’re starting a new, higher ed program here. So why don’t you, if you would just consider, and you could work full time and then still do your doctoral work. And so we did. And so started the higher ed program was led by, they just initiated a new program when the community colleges were created it as a way to increase the educational level of community college leaders. And so they branded as a higher ed program. And I was in, so I started taking classes and many of the individuals in these classes were also community college people. And so that’s how I got acquainted with a number of them. And they, what three or four of them became community college presidents. And I was still in residence life, but then as I finished I had the opportunity to go to the college of education, to work for Dean Marcino.

Larry Ebbers:
And he was a long 22 founding Dean and was a 22 year Dean. And I was his assistant to the Dean and doing all kinds of projects and budget personnel all facilities, all of that, that sort of stuff. And, and also at the same time, I had a, an academic appointment as an assistant professor. So he said that he was director of junior college in the state of Iowa before he came to Iowa state to start the school of college of education. And he said, so we got there. And so obviously the Regents institutions were providing oversight for the community colleges. They would go out and the team would go out every year and take a look at each of the community guides to ensure that they were academically in the sort of, so to speak so that the, the nature of the classes and the rigor was there.

Larry Ebbers:
And so he said he called me and said, he said, I’m, I’m supposed to go on these visits. And he said, I’m not doing those. He said, I don’t really have time. He said, you’re going to do those. So so my first year at the college of education, I went, my first visit was to Indian Hills community co college in otumwa Iowa. And so I went down there and did that and it was and so I continued to do those throughout the state. And anyway, I, so I was involved in some cases they weren’t as happy with this as others, but we was department of ed, you know, department of ed was the oversight group along with a Regents representative. So I got to know the folks really well, and we were really a good team.

Larry Ebbers:
I didn’t go on all of them, but obviously selected ones that he had to do. So we were interested then in saying, okay if you look around the leadership teams, there are really no women in leadership roles. I mean, it was all essentially white males and that’s part of the time, many of them came out of the K12 system. Some came from other, other places, but majority of them were there. And we had a woman by the name of Virginia Mosque Loftus who came to DMAC community college as an executive Dean, which is essentially the number two there. And she was also good friends with another colleague and my Jim Ratcliffe who actually led, I was at that point, I was leading the student affairs division program and Jim was leading the community college division.

Larry Ebbers:
And he so he knew her. And so we had this meeting about how we could improve and bring women in minorities, into leadership roles in community colleges. So we started this program called link and the next year Jim left and the next year Virginia left to go to other places, Jim went to Penn State for the center for study of higher ed. And Virginia went out to the west coast. So, so anyway, so here the link program and it was for women and minorities only, no men at all. Hmm. And each of the campuses I remember working through getting it approved. And obviously I knew enough of the presidents from my prior experiences and being out on the campuses that when we had the we brought this proposal for a new program for the presidents, and they agreed, of course, obviously we had it all set up before that we knew it was going to pass, but then each, each of the colleges would send at least one person to, to this year long leadership experience.

Larry Ebbers:
So it’s, and I could tell you a bunch of stories about that, but the background was started. And so the program was started is now in its 30th year, I think maybe 31 or 32. And it’s state started the test of time. I was really really involved in getting it started. We were first, we were going to 10 residents meetings all day. And then they said presidents were going into executive sessions all the time. So I said, this has gotta change. And so we changed the format really into a leadership program rather than just being prepared to be a president. And we can say today that it’s, it’s been amazing and still it’s so so we’re very involved in that. And we we made them sort of camp.

Larry Ebbers:
We did most of them in Des Moines because that was where everybody came to at the time. And but now we moved that around a little bit. So then as we moved along through this, we had 13, 14 years of it. One of the had a graduate student by the name of Chuck McFarland who from DMAC he had to disagree with the president and they decided to part ways, and he got an assistantship at Iowa State and he said, you know, Larry, he said I knew him from previously, did his work over in I had team called industrial ed technology because he was a automotive guy and he, so he came to me and he said, we talked about this. He said, we really need to expand the program and develop the program for men.

Larry Ebbers:
He said, okay, so let’s talk about this. And so we developed then a leadership program designed to prepare presidents. We called it click at the time they changed it now to, to the Iowa Leadership Institute, Iowa community college leadership Institute we designed for were upper level administrators. Even though we had, you know, particularly in the beginning we had a number of women who were moving into those roles and with the idea that they would become presidents. So that was the emphasis that we had and it was a great we made it totally campus based and that’s the other thing that I’ve been able to do is that we were out on the campuses. We would obviously meet with the president for a little while talking about leadership changes. We also had the opportunity to bring in some of the nation’s best community college leaders in terms of academic people, John Rouge several other people that he, I mean, I worked with him at the University of Texas.

Larry Ebbers:
So I, I really wanted to bring in the role of the academic role as well as the community college role. And so it’s, it’s, it was a nice blend of things that we could do. And we took the program outta state as well. We had people from out state come and join the program, but we also then made, took our community college faculty and staff, the students in the programs to Johnson county, community college, Metro in Omaha, having them get an opportunity to look outside Iowa. One of the things we found Catherine Boswell has always been a great supporter. And she said, she said, she asked the question once she was here for a seminar. And she said, how many of you have worked outside Iowa? One? And so that was a, so that’s why we said, well, we need to do this national presence.

Larry Ebbers:
And that’s what we did with the college leadership program. I think that we we’ve also had two Iowa State presidents that were really beneficial in terms of our relationship with community colleges. Martin was the first one in it, but particularly Greg Joe and they were also very interested in developing community college relations and that we put together an advanced partnership program. So students could start it to the community college and transferred directly to Iowa state seamless. And so we were doing a number of things out in the state. And so we were very, very visible and that’s, I think that helped me the most is the fact that I worked quite closely with community college leaders and, but starting, and there’s no question about two leadership development programs. And at the same time we had the combination of, you talked about earlier about community college leadership programs.

Larry Ebbers:
We then, so people who didn’t have masters, we said, you need to get your masters, particularly in the learning program. This was early on. And so we put ways we, we gave academic credit for those programs, as well as you know, obviously we had assignments and everything. And also we did some early online kinds of things. So we really tried to integrate that. And then we also then created the PhD program which you know, again, I prepared a lot of administrators. So at one point in time, I think I did some data work. We had 21 presidents out of the group. We had somewhere around 50, 60 vice presidents at over 110 deans and directors. So it’s the leadership pipeline that makes a difference.

Susana Muñoz:
Right? Oh my goodness. That is amazing how you built these programs from the ground up. And it was really about those connections and relationships that you had forged, you know, early on. And I understand also it’s really important to have that leadership buy-in for, for these things to really be institutionalized. But so out of all of that, all of that work, what, what has been sort of like your favorite part? What, what sort of has been like the joy of this for you?

Larry Ebbers:
Well, you know what it is, it’s students and relationships. That’s I mean, that’s, that’s how I live my life. It always has been obviously a background in student affairs, background, community colleges, all student centered kinds of things that I enjoy, helping people move to what I call their next level things that they have. I remember a couple of people, one who was president today said when I came to link, I was, I said, first of all, why did she was a faculty member? Why did they send me? And she said, and, and I I’ve been with her every, every move she’s made administratively. Well, then she got asked to be a Dean over some of the FA department chair first. And so she said, what do you think? I said, oh, I think you can, well, see, I never thought about that.

Larry Ebbers:
And I said, well, there are other opportunities. And so she then moved to a Dean. And then the next question was, was she was also a business faculty member and the CFO position came open and the president called me and said, what do you think? I said, absolutely. So she went into that, well then then the vice president of academic affairs retired. And so I said, so are you going to move to that one? Well, you think I should? I said, yes. And so then we I said, the next step for you. She worked on her PhD, she got her PhD. So she was, she started as a community college student and so moved all the way through it finally ended up being the very successful president for eight years. And she always said, I never thought I’d ever do this, but here I am.

Larry Ebbers:
So anyway, so great role model. And so there, but there are all kinds of stories like that where we’ve been able to, to work with then professionals who are many of the professionals at that point in time. And, and, but I also love working with beginning master students back in the day. I don’t do that as obviously didn’t do that as much as we moved on, but we have a separate higher ed master’s program in student affairs. So anyway, but that was, that’s always been my great joy and, and I continued to remain in contact with lots of folks like you and others around the country who are doing good things. Now surprising. Many of them are I’m going to some of their retirement parties. That’s how can this be? How can this be? So,

Susana Muñoz:
Oh my goodness.

Larry Ebbers:
Yeah. Not, I’m not planning on yours by the way for

Susana Muñoz:
No, not, it’s going to be a while. Larry.

Larry Ebbers:
Good. We need you.

Susana Muñoz:
Yes. you know, one of the things, you know, that is always amazed me about you is that of the number of presidents that you’ve, you know, helped sort of forge to the pipeline. And so it’s always, and you’re still at it today. I kind of feel like you haven’t really retired from that, because I know I hear things in on these streets here in, in higher ed about, oh yeah. If you want to be president call Larry Ebbers and you can help, you can help you out. So

Larry Ebbers:
Interestingly enough, I’ve never been one. So that’s yeah.

Susana Muñoz:
And why is that Larry? Why, why did

Larry Ebbers:
Well, I had, I’ve had several opportunities doing this during the search process to say, we’re happy Larry, we will, we’ll close this search process right now, if you’ll do this. And I said, no, that’s not where that’s not where my gifts are. I think it’s in in working with students, working with leadership development, that’s always the kind of thing that I valued in my life. And you know, not that I couldn’t be one I’ve had that also experience at private colleges where I was on the board. I did the search and they said, we’ll stop it right now if you want to. And I said, no, that’s not me. So it’s it’s, it’s the kind of life that, that I’ve enjoyed. And I also should say my partner, Barb, as you, well though, has been very supportive of all this. And we’ve had lots of meetings at this house with regard to grad students with regard to community college presidents, trying to solve issues and groups. And so it’s, it’s just been a, a very good life for me and I really enjoy this kind of thing. And I don’t, I don’t have to be in the leadership role. You can, I’ve always done a number of presentations on leadership from the middle and lots of ways to do that. So anyway,

Susana Muñoz:
Yeah, no, you know, we all enjoy Barb, so I like, we appreciate you sharing Barb with us as well.

Larry Ebbers:
And all of you guys as well.

Susana Muñoz:
Such a lovely relationship that we’ve had with her. So in, in looking at some of the things that you’ve written about community college leaders in the past, so what are the most important qualities or competencies of community college leaders? What do they need to understand and know to be successful?

Larry Ebbers:
Well, I think there are a couple of things that would point people to American association of community colleges has a competency list. They’re in the third edition, I was proud to say that I’m proud to say that I was part of the first group that was called in to talk about competencies for leadership and community colleges. So it’s really exciting time in that sense of watching that. And I would say the really need to look at those they’re they’re good. They’re they have them for faculty, they have them for midlevel administrators, they have deans aspiring CEOs. So it’s, I would really encourage you to take a look at those competencies, but I think a number of them are, are pretty pretty substantial. And, and you look at kinds of things that you look at authenticity.

Larry Ebbers:
There are two sides there’s professional side and the personal side. And I would say you know, it’s, we’re in an era that’s, that’s very important in terms of, of authenticity transparency ethical leadership. People have courage, people who can do conflict management, but and as boards you know, and I realized that we’re into an interesting appointment series of things here with regard to presidents, some, some systems office appoint the presidents, other places where they have local boards they appoint the appoint the president. So it sort of depends on, on where you’re looking and how you’re doing it. But I think the, but still the number one as, as AAC, American Association Community College says about the future of the presidency. It is student success is the north star for anybody who wants to be a community college president.

Larry Ebbers:
And I think that’s true. Yeah. Because on almost every presidential search we done about students. And so I think that that continues to be the north star. Now there is a sort of a changing dynamic here that I see coming forth is that all of a sudden workforce development is becoming a real issue. And obviously we need, you know, we pay attention to the news, the labor shortages all over we’re going to solve this crisis and that the other one is resources. The ability too again, in many states they’ve reduced resources but there have been ways for people to offer scholarships and money and to do that. And so I would say that there are people are looking more for someone who could fundraise they used to call it fundraising. Now they’ve just become bold enough to call it fundraising.

Larry Ebbers:
Right. So it’s a, it’s a matter of, of, of looking for ways that you partner with the business community ways in which you can find donors who are willing to support student scholarships. And so I think that’s I would say those are some of the things that they’re looking for, but above all personal, personal values is you lead the system and that those kinds of things that make things work well. And I always, I always tell my, my, my president candidates when I do this when they’re selected job, one is the board job. Two is the board job. Three is the board. So at where, you know, and this is I’m doing some work in Minnesota now where there are to an equity 20, 30 project in. So I think that, and they’re very interested looking for people who can enhance that project, but that’s out of the system office. So again, but in a statewide group like this in Iowa, it’s very different because it’s all local boards, so you need engage where you are and what kind of system you want to work in.

Susana Muñoz:
So no that’s really important to understand as well. And so one of the things that you brought up just now was the, the word courage and wondering if you can say a little bit more about, have you seen examples where courage maybe bit somebody in the behind or

Larry Ebbers:
Sure. Well, we always, we all have examples of that. And it’s courage, I think courage is important. I view myself as an entrepreneurial change agent in that many respects and that we’ve done a number of things here that community college leadership program being one of them, we did a lot of work on learning communities to bring them to Iowa State. And so I, I think it’s courage with values. I mean, if people think that you’re fair understanding and you look for the people who, who are willing to work with you obviously you know, we always say that you know, most of the people in the middle will know if they, if they understand and obviously you have the detractors, but if you really think that there’s value in these things and you can present the value, but I think it’s important to understand the value of teams in that you need to have some people with you who can think, and, but not, not all think alike in that sense. You can’t everybody that just like you on a leadership team. And so it’s an exciting, exciting time. And I do love do love to work. Excuse me, it’d be a change agent, but it does take courage. Sometimes you’re going to have, sometimes it’ll be a little tougher than others, but know overall you keep why I say you keep your eye prize and and that prize is student success and that’s, that’s why we’re here. So.

Susana Muñoz:
Nice. Nice. Yeah, no, I totally agree with that. And just kinda shifting gears a little bit about kinda focusing a little bit about the pandemic in your opinion, sort of how do you feel the pandemic has impacted leaders in, in, in and community colleges? What, what have you seen as sort of maybe some, some challenges, but also what are some surprising assets that perhaps came out of the community colleges?

Larry Ebbers:
It was a tough year for all my president friends and, and people were part of the teams that you know, we received constant communication from our president Whitney Winterstein about what we’re doing here at Iowa state. You know, a lot of community colleges, presidents were communicating on a regular basis and things were changing. I mean, they were changing so much. And in cases, I think where people really did well was the fact that they had a strong team working with them and realizing they could make the best judgment they could, based on the data that they had. But I think that you know, there’s certainly some outgrowths of this, the amount of work that we can do. Like we’re doing here with zoom. I mean, I conducted three or four searches almost totally by zoom. And I was, people were, are concerned about that.

Larry Ebbers:
And I said so well, I said, I’ve talked to one of my friend, a former employee of mine who is now a vice president president of a large consulting firm. And he said, we’re doing almost all of it by zoom, given the conditions that exist. I think it was unfortunate. We had to shift to online education so quickly, not all faculty were ready to do that. And that, so it caused some changes in that I think some faculty, of course, obviously, and I’m one of those, I’ll say I’ve taught online, but my preference is face to face as you well know and that the interactions that can occur. So, so I think we’ve learned to be much more efficient, much more in terms of all of this. But it’s also at the same time challenge for us and all leaders to order to do this.

Larry Ebbers:
And with, you know, probably changes forever, just like the Vietnam war protests. I mean, we had the protest with the Vietnam war that changed all of us in that respect. And so we deal with, with what we have just talking with the president yesterday and said, she’s retiring. He says, the toughest year of her life was last year making decisions about students student lives and realized it was a disruptive kind of thing. And so the fact that we became political as opposed to medical in that respect and this, so it’s so they dealt with as best they could, others you know, I’ve just said, well, you know, we’ve used as a learning process and now we’re, you know, we will not return to business as usual, anything. So I think there’s some things about it that forever change academia, but that’s, that’s the way we’ve always been life events and things that happen change. And we, and one of the things I liked about higher education is that has great flexibility overall. I mean, realizing that that needs to change and adapt and move and that is the exciting part about it. So,

Susana Muñoz:
Yeah, no, yeah. Appreciate that. So, so what advice do you give your presidents when they’re facing challenges or hard times like this?

Larry Ebbers:
Well, we, we talk about the options, but I said, you know, the most important thing is your team. And that you know, I realize that, you know, you’re going to be the point person for it all. And you have to develop a little thicker skin in some cases but never, never lose sight of your goals and, and your values and what you do. And realizing that you’re not going to make the right decision every time. And you do the best you can. And I’ve had, you know, my discussions with them is, is just to, to hear them out, let them talk and get your opinion. I think one of the values about about all of the working together is that we have connections and that’s very important to, to keep those connections, friendships you know, outside the that’s one of the things I encourage about professional development and associations and relationships.

Larry Ebbers:
One of the things that we know that the cohorts, the link and quick cohorts, as well as the doctoral cohort that is that these people come to know each other and they’re calling each other all the time for advice and comment. So it’s a matter of, of those relationships that you build early and people that you trust to talk to. And so that’s occasionally why I’ll get some, some calls about how would you handle this, or I not a problem, what you need to do. And so, so you need to have a, we always use personal advisory committee sort of outline who your go to people are, and they’re not, not going to be just one person that we can be more than one person. So it’s my advice is them to talk to your, talk to your other colleagues, talk to other presidents talk to your own team, obviously, and also obviously to stay current as possible.

Larry Ebbers:
That’s you know, the kind of thing with the pandemic, none of us knew exactly where all of this was going and even the scientists were, you know, dealing with all of that. So it’s, you know, don’t don’t isolate yourself is what I would say to them. But also talk to people you can trust because sometimes well, one of the things I find out, some people sort should I say can’t keep a secret or, or know how to do that. So you need to either be careful about your advisors and who you’re talking to. So that’s one of the things I found out over time, if you, if you are going to, if you want, somebody want somebody to know something, you know, who to tell and find the words, you know, and that happens. But, but on the other hand, it’s mostly advice.

Susana Muñoz:
Yes. Yeah, yeah. That’s what we call them. But yeah, that resonates with me because I know like I, I would not be here without community. You know, you need that community to, to help you kind of think through and be thought partners alongside with you. That’s

Larry Ebbers:
Right. That’s right. So important. So important. Yeah.

Larry Ebbers:
We know every other crises come along,

Susana Muñoz:
So yeah, no, no. I think it’s ever everlasting thing and it’s good to have some people in our, in our corner to sort of support us through those hard times. So so one of the questions so I, I reached out to some of your fans out there in higher education. And so our friend from University of Cincinnati, the associate vice president, student affairs.

Larry Ebbers:
Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Susana Muñoz:
Who was part of my cohort? Of course. He’s you were able to, to recruit a Cuban from Miami to Iowa. So I feel like that’s a lot of accolades.

Larry Ebbers:
When I first met him. I said, you need to think about it, Larry. I will never, ever consider Iowa State, never, ever, I don’t care what you do. So I just continue sending him packets of information, talking to him all the time. And so he ended up, he ended up coming here.

Susana Muñoz:
Yes

Larry Ebbers:
Had him stay at our home when he was here for recruitment purposes, all that sort of stuff. So,

Susana Muñoz:
And thank goodness you did. Yeah. He was a big support for continues to be a big support for me, but he had a question. He says, you know, of interest, I would, I would love to hear from Larry of all the students he’s recruited and assisted in completing their degrees. Are there any students that stood out that have persevered?

Larry Ebbers:
Well, I think there are lots of students that have you being one of them you obviously had some life changes, occur as you were working through your doctorate and that’s you know, you were able to come back and complete. I would say certainly one was I taught, but he is my best recruiting individual that I would say I’ve recruited. And we’ve had lots of people go on and do do great things, but it’s also, its also about the team we had. We had here at the time. We had people like Laura Rendon, John Shu, Nancy Evans, of course Dan Roberts, myself, Frankie Santo Lanman it was our, I brought him in for a research. We didn’t have a strong research component. And so in terms of community college and he brought that to us. So it’s the kind of thing that I would say that, you know wow. Thinking about all of them

Susana Muñoz:
Yeah.

Larry Ebbers:
I just it’s just been a great experience and so it’s but one will always be one of my favorite stories, one of my favorite stories, but also same time. I think I really was concerned about again because of that we really work with underrepresented groups and I’m most proud of the fact that that you were able to persevere in, in situations which you know, we’re, we’re difficult at times, I’m sure from a support group per perspective, but we have you know, a number of of the president now of Old Dominion as one of our, although he, he did a minor in higher ed, but he’s always been a, a great supporter program. And so it’s but I’m also proud of the fact that have many people in leadership roles in the state of Iowa, most administrative teams are well balanced in terms of men, women now in fact more women than men. But looking at the administrative teams now over half of them have either been in our leadership program with a degree or one of the programs. So all those people, I would hold up as, as as some of the kinds of people I worked with without making specific people. But other than you two at this point.

Susana Muñoz:
No, thanks for that. I appreciate that. And I heard that, I don’t know if this number is correct, but you have hooded like around 170 students or something like that.

Larry Ebbers:
200

Susana Muñoz:
200

Larry Ebbers:
Yeah, 200 as the, as the chair or the co-chair now that happened because we had some people leave and I took over students. I mean, it was obviously my role, one of my roles that I enjoyed was finishing people. I, you know, and people who I always told, if you leave the chance of you finishing the doctorate are 50 50. And some said, oh no, I, I I’ll be able to do it. Well, you’re going to a new job. You’re expected to do all kinds of things and you’re not going to not going to be able to finish. So anyway, that’s, that’s the portion of what I know statistically we’re the same as everybody else, but on the other end, I was always disappointed when someone left and did not finish.

Susana Muñoz:
So yeah.

Larry Ebbers:
But I really enjoyed doing that. I was also the chief Marshall for our graduation ceremonies. And so that was always a, a funny then. And a couple people would say how many did you do today? So it’s that, but again, it was part of the team. I mean, you know, well, I was, while I was chair of the committee, there were also a lot of other people who were on the dissertation committees and the master’s committees that, that really helped. I, yeah. So

Susana Muñoz:
Wow. 200 Larry. Wow. That’s amazing. I, I even, and like, I’m looking at my own advising load, which I feel is a little bit mirroring Larry Ebbers. Because I have about 24 students right now I’m advising.

Larry Ebbers:
Well, they were always, the graduate Dean was always on me. How can you do this many students? And I said, well, I said, part of it is it’s, it’s integrated work with my, my other work. And so it’s you know, we were working way in which they could do it. And that we started a special cohort program for yeah. Community college PhD program. Little bit of Tim Davies was coming into Iowa and offering the program you know, for community college leaders. And we did have a couple people compete, a couple presidents, came me and said, Larry, what, why are, why, why are they doing that? And you guys are not, so we that’s how we got started doing it. So,

Susana Muñoz:
Yeah. Yeah. That’s amazing. The, the other part of Juan’s question was, were there any challenges during your time, as an administrator that in hindsight, you would’ve made a different decision?

Larry Ebbers:
I don’t know if I’ve made a different decision but it was you know, you always think about, you know, along the way, you certainly would’ve said that. Well, I may have done that a little bit differently. We had a, we had a real challenge in that leadership in the college was not being very successful. We had 32 vacancies and I said, we’ve gotta do something about this. Well, the administrator decided to ultimately give up her deanship. And so we were involved in recreating the president came over and said, if you don’t change this, you’re not going to be a college. We, we were doing no grants, very few publications. We were just not, not a scholarly group in any sense. He said, you need to turn it around. So we had an interim Dean and I went in as associate Dean on an interim basis and was another guy by name Dan Raley.

Larry Ebbers:
And so we served as the, there were, there were no department chairs, everybody was interim and there was no leadership. And so we said, there’s a leadership vacuum here. And so we became the search committee to go out and recruit high qualified scholars in each of the areas within the college, which we did do. That’s how we got John Shu. That’s how we got Nancy Evans, ultimately got Laura Rendon. So and Frankie Ilan. And so it was a matter of, of lots of challenges along the way about what we were doing, how we were doing it. And we also had involved in sexual harassment case at that time that people were coming up to me at, at the gym and saying, you guys are wrong. You’re out of bounds. You have no credibility, et cetera, et cetera. And so it was a, it was a challenging time, but you know, we probably made a few mistakes along the way there. And but ultimately we had resolution a sexual harassment case as well bringing in all the outstanding faculty that we had at that time. So,

Susana Muñoz:
No, I, for sure, I was benefactor of all those outstanding faculty, for sure.

Larry Ebbers:
Yeah. The other thing is I was going back to, we had another president who who was on search committee for it who came from Texas A&M that gave us some money to recruit students of color. We did this through a lunch, Jim Sweeney and I, Jim Sweeney was on the ed a part. I was on the higher ed part and we had lunch with him. President I’ll think of it here in a little bit. Anyway, he he said, so we got some money. And so anyway, so we got back to the offices, Dean called me and said, Larry said, tell me, what’s going on. He said, I just got a call from the assistant to the president said, you guys got a bunch of money to do minority. I said, that’s right.

Larry Ebbers:
He said, well, the, the assistant president was real happy about it, but they made the commitment. And so I going around the system. Yeah. And sometimes, you know, you can get caught with, with doing that. But so that was one of the challenging times we did it. And if you know, and understand the system, you can go around it. Unfortunately, I had a very good relationship with Dean, so he was not upset. In fact, he was happy. So he didn’t tell the president that, but or the, the one, the, whatever they called the executive vice president, I guess, was his name.

Susana Muñoz:
So

Larry Ebbers:
Nice. Nice. So sometimes you have to do that to, you know, knowing that we had the conversations always about well, you know, really did I know that, oh, no, I didn’t sorry. Well, we done it anyway. So to do that, so anyway, it’s all, it’s all part of leadership in a variety of ways.

Susana Muñoz:
Yes, yes. Going around the system sometimes is very helpful, but make sure that you, if you get caught in a, they’re asking you for an apology to apologize too.

Larry Ebbers:
Apologize, but you know, what the debt, the act was done, the deed was done

Susana Muñoz:
And right. So one of my last questions for you is what are your hopes and dreams for the next generation of higher education leaders?

Larry Ebbers:
I dunno if you’ve read, I saw the NASPA report. I don’t know if you saw the new NASPA task report that said that what 67% would continue, but third of them were considering leaving the field and 25% said they never returned to the field. I think that’s you know, that’s, that’s the ebb and flow of, of of life in that respect. You know, you always, we find a number of people who left their businesses who are doing other kinds of things. And so as long as we have students, I have hope and they’re willing to go for things. One of the issues in Iowa right now, I was transgender. They, the law that just came in and today students from high school were walking out and protest of the new law.

Larry Ebbers:
And so it’s a, you know, as long as we have students and people who believe in these things, I think there’s a great future. Now. I think most of us gotten into the profession because of someone who’s said, well, oftentimes I’ll say, well, I didn’t know, there was this kind of a profession higher education. And they said, I’d like to do that. Or we have said to people, have you thought about that? And so it’s the kind of thing that we really so I think with the, I go back to our Levine who was and still writing. We had a number of interactions with him, brought him to campus a couple times. He said that, you know, we’re in the we and I cycles if we go through every, about every 40 years.

Larry Ebbers:
And I haven’t read his I’ve, I haven’t really talked to him lately, but he is saying, you know, every four years cycles and, and we’ve been in a real “I” cycle and I think that new, the new generation, I see this in our granddaughters and grandsons it’s a new generation and and they’re moving more to we than they are “I” and I realize that, you know, the, the gen Zs are, are proven. Millennials are pretty much focused on themselves, but I, I think there’s some real movement as we see all of these issues running around. So we’re moving to a different cycle. And I hope that, that we are, and I think we are in terms we need to return disability. We need return to community. And that we’ve been in pretty divisive politics for the last few years.

Larry Ebbers:
And somehow we need to get through that, but have trust that we will and that I think there’s a real future in higher education. My grandson, who’s coming to Iowa State this fall, by the way, nice from, from Indianapolis, which is a can go into the whole recruiting effort day. I tried not tried to stay out of it, but it worked so anyway, it’s he said, you know, he said, I I’m thinking, he said, I want to get my own lab, but he’s going to be an, a bio systems engineer. He said, I’m going to get my own lab. And I want to be a professor. And he said, work with students. He said, that would, to me, would be exciting. So it’s you know, so I always sort of say, wow, where doing here, we look like we’re on a down cycle. There’s always hope. And I just think that you know, we’ve gotta figure out a way to restore the academy in some respects. And yet, you know, that there always be controversial things coming outta the academy, but that’s why we’re here. That’s what we do. And so it’s, it’s a matter of finding those leaders who have that the courage, the the values that, that keep us centered. So,

Susana Muñoz:
Yeah. Yeah.

Larry Ebbers:
I’m optimistic about the future. I’m concerned about funding, but we’ve always, you know, 55 years in higher education, we’ve always been concerned about funding and figuring out ways in which we can do it to, you know, we have, we just completed many campuses are to a billion, our campaign here at Iowa state and the majority of us for student scholarships. Yeah. So that’s you know, that’s a, that’s a good thing, so, yeah,

Susana Muñoz:
For sure. Awesome.

Larry Ebbers:
So I have hope that I’m not pessimistic, but on the other hand, you know, you still keep involved and but you guys are the future. And so I do believe in legacies and, and that that we’d all learn from others. I can point to mind. And, and I’m sure, you know, all of us who’ve been involved in this business say this, and I’m more convinced at legacy than anything else. If you look around with the leaders there, the people who’ve been taught by other leaders, and that’s, that’s the beauty of higher ed in the sense that whether be in the classroom you know, I still have, I still think about some of the faculty that I had, that I also think about the administrators that I had. And so it’s it’s fun. It’s, fun’s really, so

Susana Muñoz:
Now that’s, that’s amazing that that gives us a lot of hope to think about too. And I just want to thank you because I know 50 years is an amazing career and to still continue to be standing here and also just sort of having that hope and having that joy for a field. I think sometimes we get in, caught up sometimes in the negative, you know, I mean, we’re trying to like pull out, you know, put out all these fires and, you know, many things are coming on us at once, you know, in the field of education and people are feeling burned out after all these years. And I think this conversation hopefully has been really restorative for me and also our audience and, and also grateful that I get to stand on your shoulders and what a legacy that you’ve left for all of your students. And and for many of us that are, that you’ve helped kind of build and lift up in in many years. And so, so thank you for continuing to uplift many of us that are still in the field and for always being a sounding board when we need to call you in an emergency about what to do. So I’m grateful for you and your time and for sharing all that you have learned throughout your 50 year career with our listeners here. So thank you.

Larry Ebbers:
Well, it’s been my pleasure and I have just you know, I love watching all of you guys and the contributions that you’re making and the friendships that you’re developing in the communities. And that’s the real important part about what we do and when going ahead into the future. So thank you, Susana. I’m best, best of luck to you as you continue. And obviously you’re one of our bright stars. I appreciate that kind of work that you’re doing. I remember when you came and talked about a dissertation topic and you said, I don’t know, I said, go for it, go for it. So, yeah,

Susana Muñoz:
That’s, it’s, it’s made yep. It’s really within a rewarding career because of that choice. Yeah. but thank you again for being here and you for your time, your generosity for sharing today listeners, you can receive reminders about this and other episodes by subscribing to Student Affairs NOW newsletter or browsing our archives as studentaffairsnow.com. Today, thank you to our sponsors today. LeaderShape partners with universities and colleges to create transformational leadership experiences, both virtually and in person for students and professionals. With the focus on creating a more, just caring and thriving world LeaderShape offers, engaging learning experiences on courageous dialogue and integrity, equity, resilience, and community building to find more, please visit leadershape.org/virtualprograms, or connecting with them on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn. Stylus is also a proud sponsor of Student Affairs NOW. Today, browse through their student affairs, diversity and professional development titles@Styluspub.com and use the promo code SANow

Susana Muñoz:
for 30% off all books and plus free shipping, you can also find them on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and LinkedIn. So huge shout out too to Natalie Ambrosey the production assistant for the podcast who does all the behind the scenes work. Make us look good and sound good. So if you’re listening today and the already receiving our weekly newsletter, please visit our website at student affairsnow.Com scroll down to the bottom of the homepage to add your email to our MailChimp list. So while you are there, check out all of our archives. I’m Susana Muñoz. Thanks again to Dr. Larry Ebbers today. And everyone who is, is listening and watching make it a great week. Take care.

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