Clar C. Gobuyan
Academia wants a very specific part of myself, right? They want my intellect. They want what I look like in the academy, because I am, in some ways a prototype, right? Like I. I’m, I’m the, I’m the DEI babe, right? And there’s something really special to to be able to connect with the group of trans scholars that I’ve connected with, and at the same time help me feel so loved and cared for, beyond my identity as a scholar, as a student.

Heather Shea
Welcome to Student Affairs NOW, the online learning community for Student Affairs educators. I’m your host, Heather Shea. I am so thrilled to have Dr Z Nicolazzo back with us, whose book trans in college I have it today was recently cited by our listeners as a must read of the summer. This groundbreaking work based on Z’s doctoral research has significantly influenced the field and continues to shape our understanding of the experiences of transgender students in higher ed joining Z today are two of her doctoral students, Clar and Pin-Ru, you all are expanding upon this important research with your own studies, and I am so excited to learn from and alongside each of you today. Student Affairs now is the premier podcast and learning community for 1000s of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We hope you’ll find these conversations make a contribution to the field and are restorative to the profession. Profession. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays, and you can find us at studentaffairs now.com on YouTube or anywhere you listen to podcasts. This episode is sponsored by Routledge Taylor and Francis view their complete catalog of authoritative education titles at routledge.com/education and this episode is also sponsored by Huron, a global professional services firm that collaborates with clients to put possible into practice. As I mentioned, I’m your host for today’s episode, Heather Shea. My pronouns are she her and hers, and I am broadcasting from the ancestral, traditional and contemporary lands of the Annishnaabeg, three fires confederacy of Ojibwe, Ottawa and Potawatomi peoples, otherwise known as East Lansing, Michigan, home of Michigan State University where I work. So let’s get into today’s conversation. Let me open up the room so everybody is here. Hello, everyone. So excited to have you joining me on an episode again. Welcome back Z to the podcast as as I mentioned, she is the author of the book I referenced in the beginning, and you are also editor of ACPA is about campus and a podcast hostess in your own right, which is amazing. Welcome. Z, yeah, I wonder if maybe you want to share a little bit about your backstory and then introduce us to your two doctoral students.

Z Nicolazzo
Yeah, sure, sure. Thanks. Glad to be here, um, and glad to be alongside Clar and Pin-Ru And also you, Heather, I mean, you and I have had a long relationship. We’re both. We’ve gone through the University of Arizona a couple of different times, right? And so we have a lot of different connections, which is really nice. So glad to be in good company. So I’m Zena glaso. I live and work in Tucson, Arizona, which is the ancestral and ongoing homelands of the Tohono O’odham and Pascua Yaqui peoples. I yeah, have the really good fortune to work and learn alongside fantastic students. And so when I decided to come back down to the desert, I had worked in Tucson previously one of so I guess the the important piece of my backstory is I’m actually part of a trans transgender studies cluster hire across disciplines at the University of Arizona. So Susan Stryker, who’s a internationally renowned trans historian, was able to create four different lines across the university. So my line in education, there was another line in anthropology, another in religious studies, and the fourth in women and gender studies. And so that’s how I kind of ended up coming back to Tucson after being a student affairs administrator on campus for four years, before going to Miami of Ohio, where I got my PhD. And when I came back, one of my real big goals was to create a hub of knowledge for queer and trans doctoral students, and so Clar and pinru are two of the fabulous students who decided to join me in the desert. Them from various different places. And, yeah, I’m really, I’m really thankful to to be able to learn from them, which is fantastic. So I, I’ll, I’ll maybe kick it over to the two of y’all, and maybe, I guess we can start Pin-Ru, you want to start first, and then we can move to Clar. Y’all can kind of introduce yourselves and talk about where you’re coming from, and a little bit about, maybe what about maybe what what your work is, because I know you’ll do it amazing justice.

Pin-Ru Su
Okay, so I will go first, and thank you for Heather for having me here, and I’m Pin-Ru, and I’m an international student from Taiwan, the place where I grew up, greatly influenced my thinking in many ways. So I’m now a PhD candidate in the Ufa higher education program. So I would like to spend a short time to talk about Taiwan, which is really like influenced me in couple of ways. Taiwan is a small island country on the other side of the Pacific Ocean with a strong relationship with the US, as you may know, due to the current situation with China. So while Taiwan is well known for like, more body or semiconductors, it also is a place where democracy, freedom and human rights are valued. So we have national public health cover for almost the population, also the we can direct vote for our election. So Taiwan can be seen as a convergence of the East and the West in some circumstances. So regarding the gender, Taiwan has legal protection for Korean trans people. It has gender and equality act in protecting teacher can teach about like queer trans topic in catch up schools and but also, as I was Taiwanese educator in K Chow public school, I found that there is a gap between like, policy and practice, even though we have a state support policy, but underneath The table like there’s a gap between the practice. So I’m started to curious about what happened, and especially like in our higher education research didn’t do much work around queer and trans issue in higher education. So I started to, like, seek, oversee across the ocean, to connecting with Chen scholar, and because of the connection with the US and Taiwan, I start, I decide to start here, so that could be my background story. So I think why am I sharing all of this? Is because, of course, one of the reason that I choose to study in abroad, about trans student in education, is because my own identity. But I think what more important is that the broader cultural context that shape how people’s thoughts and feelings. So for me, I think it’s essential to like studying trans student especially, to know about where they are come from and their cultural it’s not just background, but how influence the whole thinking. So so I decided to study at the U of A and initially I study about trans people of color, and I quickly find out that some of some kinds of experience of trans people of color didn’t cover my experience. So I’m, I’m thinking about there is a difference between trans people of color and international student group. So that’s how I ended up starting to thinking of the group of international trans students and the study. Yeah, awesome.

Heather Shea
Thank you so much. That was a fabulous introduction. I can’t wait to hear more about what you’re what you’re learning. Clar, do you want to pick up on that and take us from there? Sure?

Clar C. Gobuyan
So I’m Clar Gobuyan. My pronouns are they them. I’m a queer, agender, trans, masculine person of color. I’m an immigrant. I’m also a child of immigrants. And my family and my ancestors come from the Philippines. I moved to the US when I was seven. So interestingly enough, my background is actually in Gender and Women’s Studies. I was nowhere near thinking about studying education, and it wasn’t until I was given an opportunity by Dr Jana Noel over at Sac State to participate in a research fellowship program called the pathway fellows, and it was very specific for historically marginalized students to do interdisciplinary work in education. And I thought, okay, Sac State is a state school. We’re not some we’re not we’re not like an art, a research, one institution where we get funding. And so this isn’t an opportunity for me to see if this is the kind of work I want to do. And so I wanted to marry Gender and Women’s Studies and education. And so that’s when I started reading literature on queer and trans students, and I realized that there was a need for expansion. Oftentimes, the T and LGBTQ we were, there’s like one or two participants, our stories I felt weren’t being told in the ways that I wanted it to be. And I think more importantly, this was back in 2017 so the research at that time had been, it’s it’s different than than what it looks like now, and reading about it was affirming, and at the same time, very frustrating, affirming, because okay, like you’re this makes sense. This is why our experiences are like this. And at the same time, I felt that there were no mentions of larger structures that were actually responsible for these experiences, right? So there was like, again, I’m from gender women’s studies. There were no mentions of Dean Spade Arundhati Roy. Why aren’t we talking about Angela Davis and abolition and the Academy, right? And so I was frustrated, and I decided to get my Master’s in Higher Education Student Affairs at the University of San Francisco, and I thought, Okay, this is a wonderful opportunity for me to put all these theory that I learned in Gender and Women’s Studies into practice in higher education. I started my program there at USF at 2019 a housemate of mine actually gifted me Z’s book trans in college in 2019 and it was the first book that I read that I felt like spoke to me as a trans person, and more importantly, talked about these larger structures that I was craving as I read through all These research articles, and I’ll never I’ve shared this with Z many times. I’ll never forget I was at work as a practitioner. I sent her an email, Hey, I want to study with you. These are my ideas. And she emailed me within five minutes, five minutes, and I knew right then and there, like, Okay, this is the scholar that I want to work with. This is the scholar I want to learn alongside. And here I am. It’s 2024 now I’m officially a doctoral candidate, and the rest is history. I couldn’t be more honored and lucky.

Heather Shea
Oh my gosh. Z, well done in inviting these two brilliant scholars to join today. I’m so excited. I suggested to Z initially, because of the book got so much, you know, we put out a survey all these people saying, oh my gosh, this book is still really, really relevant. So we’re going to talk a little bit about that, but then it’s like, oh, but you know, the current researchers and the people who are doing their dissertation work, it would be super exciting to talk here from so thank you for that. So for those folks in our audience, some of whom may be aware of your research, and someone who are not talk with us, see a little bit about what inspired you to write trans on campus and and then our trans on in college. Sorry, I have that wrong in my notes trans in college, and then talk a little bit about how things have changed, maybe since the publication of this book in 2017

Z Nicolazzo
Yeah, so publication in 2017 the project actually started in 2014 so it’s a decade old at this point, which feels kind of wild. I I mean, I think similar to. What you both mentioned Clar and pinro. I mean, I I started working on that project a little bit because I didn’t have a trans and college experience. I came into to myself as a trans person a little bit later, post college and and so part of me was really curious about, what is that experience like for trans students, and similar to what you were talking about, Clar, you know, Dean Spade has written about this idea of the LGB fake tea movement, that the T is kind of this, like Silent letter that just hangs out that isn’t really focused on. And so I was reading these studies where the LGBT acronym was being used, I think because that’s what some people have come to know as politically correct, or the proper thing to do. But like all of the studies were largely gay men, maybe a few lesbians, maybe, like a bisexual person, and then, like, devoid of trans folks, right? And so I was just really curious around thinking through, what if we actually just focused on trans folks for a little bit, and we did it from a really affirmative stance, not that there isn’t tragedy and hardship in our lives as trans people, but that that doesn’t need to be the sole focus of of what we do. So that’s that’s kind of a little bit about where, where I wanted to to start from with the book. I think I tell people this often, and it’s not I truly believe this, right? Like this book came about with my name on the cover, largely because of timing, right? I graduated in 2015 I was introduced to John von nooring at stylus, who I just absolutely love. And I’m so thankful that that John gave me a chance on this book. John had worked with both Peter magolda and Marcia Baxter magold who were two faculty members of mine at Miami, and he really did take a chance on this book. And so the book came out at a certain point in time, but alongside of me and or right after me, in the last couple of years, there are a bunch of trans scholars who got their PhDs and wrote dissertations about trans students and about trans experiences. So this book was bound to be written. It just happens that my name is on the cover, and I’m so thankful to be in good community, not just with fantastic doctoral students and candidates, but also a really nice cohort of trans academics that are that are doing really important work, and I think extending and pushing on the work in in trans and college in some powerful ways. So, you know, I mean, I think to Clar’s point, right? There were nine participants, only three of whom were participants of color, right there, there were, well, I’ll correct that. I believe two participants right. Were participants of color. There were no international students who were a part of the study. Kind of going to pin rooms perspective. And I was thinking about transness largely from a US and Western perspective, right and so. So I think that there are ways that research has evolved now to really think about trans students of color. I think there is, there’s been a push to think about Two Spirit and indigenous trans populations. And I’m so thankful for the work that that you’re embarking on pin ru, because I really do think that we need to have not an international perspective, but a transnational perspective, right? So it’s not, it’s not this kind of looking outward from a sense of us hegemony, and thinking about international so not thinking about, you know, us down, but really thinking across national perspectives and thinking across oceans and borders.

Heather Shea
So let’s let’s shift now to talk a little bit about each of your academic and research interests. What are you exploring? You’re both candidates, so I guess you’re past the proposal stage. You’re collecting data, maybe you’re writing chapter. Just, I It’s been five years. No pressure. Your advisor on the call. How are you all of that? What are you exploring? What’s What’s your research questions? So Clar, do you want to kick us off? Sure.

Clar C. Gobuyan
First, I just want to share that my IRB finally got approved. So

Z Nicolazzo
I saw that announcement come through my email, I was excited. Yes,

Clar C. Gobuyan
that’s exciting, and I might have some funding, which is even better. Okay, so my current research explores structural transphobia as a gendered haunting on campus, and this notion of haunting which Avery Gordon Irene Z herself, have also written about are the unseen and seen, lingering presence of institutional violence, settler coloniality, white supremacy. And I do this work alongside trans students of color, where we go hunting for ghosts, if you will, of gender binary discourse, which Z introduces in her book trans in college, I believe it’s chapter three. And gender binary discourse are the these like written, unwritten rules of normative logics of gender, which are both insidious and pervasive. And it’s not just something that we find on campus, but rather all around us, right? And the research that I do alongside trans students of color is we identify these presences of gender binary discourse, whether it be like buildings a space that feels or is very gendered to them, and how does that shape their effective experiences? And equally important, what does that say about the institution’s investments in upholding these logics? And so I’m I’m excited to recruit them and work alongside them and see what we find and share it with the world.

Heather Shea
Wow, I have so many questions. That sounds like an incredible an incredible study. And I can also imagine there’s some like half ghosts, right? Like spaces that are trying to be more but maybe aren’t quite like there’s still a lingering presence. Wow, that sounds that sounds so cool. Thank

Clar C. Gobuyan
you. Have to go, so I’m gonna have to write that down. Thank you.

Heather Shea
Yeah, Pin-Ru what do you what do you tell us a little bit about your work?

Pin-Ru Su
Yeah, thank you. Um, so the big scope of my work intends to just like Zen is want to invoke a transnational perspective in trans studies, which move beyond us and Western epistemological hegemony. So my work largely draws from post human lens in trans studies within higher education research. So what I said post human is that it extends beyond studying only human, only people as a subject on campus. So what I’m focusing on is the mobility of knowledge production so specific trans knowledge and affect within a broader geopolitical special context, so to understand the influence of epistemic injustice and global academic capitalism. So I So, so a quick example is, well, I’m interested in researching on the group of international trans students on campus, which I know is a really important but I’m more focusing on theorizing and reconceptualizing trends beyond a stable identity and beyond the epistemology of the West. So my critical question guiding my work are like, how can trans become a philosophical philosophical thinking from gender, but not of gender, and I am thinking of trans, could possibly become a wave of thinking for leading educational Studies, not only for because we want to teach gender, then we teach trans. But this kind of trans thinking could be like valuable for not only related to queer and trans people, but also for the public to disrupt the um. Um power polarized society now we’re in so that’s something that um building up from these trans epistemology piece talking about the epistemology of trends. So um building on that I would like to push forward from a dynamic transnational lens and to see how Eastern, especially from an island person, Island perspective, could possibly contribute to this scholarship. Yeah,

Z Nicolazzo
wow. So fucking spoiled down here. I just can’t, I can’t get enough of working with these amazing students. So, you know, I

Heather Shea
want to do a follow up episode with both of you when your data is all you know you’re, you’re writing your books, right? Because I think the contributions that both of you are are going to make is just, is just tremendous in the conversations that we all are having, right? And I loved Pin-Run, where you talked about, what if we don’t start from, you know, gender and the binary, but start from trans is the as the as the starting point to talk. I’m, I’m sure I am only graph being a part of what your the depth of your study. But so exciting. This is so exciting. Yeah. So let’s, let’s stay with you for just a moment, though, because I am really curious about this concept of kinship and chosen family, and in particular, you know, among international students, right? And part of that might have to do with the dislocation or the relocation from their places from which they grew up. But how does that influence academic success and overall, well, being on campus,

Pin-Ru Su
yeah, I think I just, I just only can speak from my experience, I think because, like, you know, international group and is is Not it’s like, it’s really different inside the International and not every country has the legal protection that as Taiwan did. So what I’m talking about is speaking from my own experience, but largely, I think, for international especially queer and trans students, bachelor’s, trans student, those who are also people of color, we need to face not only racism transphobia, but also nationalism and xenophobia. So for example, even within queer and trans student groups, we sometimes experience exclusion from like not sharing the same cultural so the influence of academic success, I would say, for international student can be separate from two parts based on their double marginalized identity as international student and as trans student. So from my perspective, as as an international student, I am lucky enough to have a partner who is also an international PhD, non barred student, to study with me, and also lucky enough to meet wonderful Taiwanese community here. And because, as I mentioned earlier, Taiwan is friendly to queer and trans people, so we don’t need to hide inside our community. But I know that this is not the case, especially for some international student who come from a more conservative one country, so maybe they will feel like more isolated, cannot coming up for their true identity. So all the academic success for for me is come after we settled down and get used to to the new cultural and place. Um, so the community offered me like mental and emotional support, and as a trans student, I’m also really lucky to have get fully support from my advisor, z and other cohorts like Clar. I always remember the the nice I read I arrived to the apartment, we don’t have a bed, so clear, then there air mattress to me, so I have a bed that night. So I think that is important, especially you are doing queer and trans studies, and also other faculty members in our. Program is really supportive, I could say, compared to, like my previous experience, and which all committed to social justice. So they offer me, not only like affirming affirmation of identity, but also academic career support and not to mention some networking, some resources sharing. So like I would say that having this two side of community and support really influence me as an international trans student, academic success and overall well being on campus. So I could say I’m the lucky one. Yeah,

Heather Shea
wow. Clar, the the lending of the air mattress, that’s that. I mean, this is the kind of community, right, and that can happen on the individual level, but I think universities can also do some things to support foundation and nurturing. You know, what might what might you suggest that those of us who work on college of campuses or that institutions themselves should do structurally and individually? That’s a big question. How do we get these communities to really be truly sources of support.

Clar C. Gobuyan
Wow. First of all, who’s cutting onions? Pin-Ru that was so beautiful.

Pin-Ru Su
Yeah, that’s true. Yeah. I always remember I text you and you said, Oh, why don’t you get the air mattress? Yeah,

Clar C. Gobuyan
that’s sweet. Um, yeah, that that feels like a big question. I think for me, just how I’m thinking about my work now and how I navigate the world is like be intentional with creating relationships with one another. I think making community on campus is important, and we are full whole individuals outside of it, right? So how we could, how can we create these relationships on campus and move it beyond? And I think from, like, a structural, institutional level, like, I just have to be honest, like, let’s create spaces for these folks who are invested and working alongside us. Create spaces for them, opportunities, pay them, make sure the resources are there to want to keep them there. I know an issue we had at the University of Arizona is they didn’t offer, I don’t know if they do anymore, or if that’s changed, but like, they didn’t offer gender affirming care for faculty and staff. And what does that do? It pushes, it pushes these really wonderful and brilliant faculty staff members out of the academy, and so as trans students who build relationships with them, suddenly they’re gone, and sometimes they might be our lifelines of support. And so my short answer is, if we are invested in these communities, invest in us

Heather Shea
that’s really well said, Yeah, I have a close colleague and friend who is in the process of relocating to a different state because they Need life affirming care, right? And it is really saving, saving lives, and it’s it’s depressing and frustrating, how different that is from state to state. I am really curious to pin room, and both of you and Z also definitely weigh in about how you know the goals that we’re trying to achieve with trans students and building academic success and social connection. You know, does does this, and how might it intersect with our broader institutional diversity, equity and inclusion goals, like, do we see trans communities, faculty, staff and students reflected in these institutional documents that state our priorities. And I don’t know I want to say yes, but I’m also a realist.

Pin-Ru Su
Um, I think I’m, I’m not sure if there is an institutional document, but what I’m feeling is, um, because I have a long time to question why I’m here. Um, like, you know, Arizona is conservative. State and there are violence toward queer and trans people. So last year, I conducted a study in this class to understand what actually influenced my choice to come to study at Arizona, especially while I got admitted in other university in Canada, so compared to Canada, so I really, I conducted interview with four faculty members within college of education, including two department has one Associate Dean now, and also a faculty member. So I want to understand how the college of education became for me, I feel that the college is a dei oriented institution, although they don’t really like promote that we are some kind of social justice program, but they just do DNA social justice things that I really feel, and I know a lot, so it just not of just a few groups of people like working in this topic, But it’s for me, it feels like the entire program and the whole faculty members has the commitment to social justice. So I really wonder what happened and the history of how the program all the program development like this. So I do some interview, and the quick result for me, I can conclude in like four points I can share with all of you, is that the first one is faculty really play a crucial role in fostering inclusive environments. So just like Clar said earlier, if faculty didn’t stay, then the student will go and the if there are like diverse faculty that they will bring more diverse students. So from my experience, I came here just because I want a strength scholar and in the field of education is really hard to really find a trans scholar, so I came here because of the so I think the faculty play a crucial role and also their curriculum, especially the design of the syllabus, every time I read the syllabus from from these or from other faculty members, they mentioned about the you can choose your preferred name, your preferred pronouns. I think that is a little things, but means a lot to trans student, and also the research on the research I want to do, like, I think my research is really, like, big and ambitious, but Z never stop me. And they also, like, invite me to think more. So I think that is really important for trans student, because usually if, if the faculty member don’t feel interested in this topic, they will, they will think that, why do you want to do a trans study other than like other topic? So that is meant to be important. And the second one is that the the college commit to social justice. But this is progress, not actually at the beginning. It’s looked like this. They the program started from the desegregation and sexism movement and started to recruit more and more diverse faculty, and they intend to recruit like from international queer and trans, and then more of more more, like the snowball effects, like bring more and students, and the third One is the holistic admission process. So for PhD student, not only judge for their academic achievement, I know that for international student, we have to take the English test, and some of the prestigious university just don’t give them offer because they cannot get the English Standard. But what I know is that in our program, that they view all maybe they can talk about more, but they they see all their diversity, not only on their academic achievement. And the fourth is the. Value, value the difficulty of international student because they are less for international students, especially admission to PhD program is more competitive because they are less quota for international student. So I know that our department and our program and faculty member do a lot to support international students, especially from the founding so I think that’s the four points I can share. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Z Nicolazzo
Pin-Ru, as I’m hearing you talk about that study that you did for the paper and in the history and philosophy class last year, and Clar, as I’m hearing you, talk previously about the answer to the previous question. I’m thinking a lot about how, you know, people can in a university context, that that kind of operates as a loosely coupled organization, there are multiple different points at which people can make certain choices, right? So like the institution makes some choices around diversity, equity and inclusion, right, not just ours, lots of institutions right, that maybe they try and use those words on glossy brochures. Maybe they try not to use those words on brochures anymore. Just had a conversation with a colleague at a different university who’s trying to do diversity, equity and inclusion work without using those words because of the state and the state politics that that that she’s dealing with now, meanwhile, people in departments or even relationships that we’re able to create, faculty, staff and students, we can do a different sort of work because of the loosely coupled nature of of the organization that we’re a part of, right? So there are choices that we make around holistic admissions processes. There are ways that we can think about funding on a department level that might be different, and there are, I would argue, generations of queer and trans kinship and and community that queer and trans folks can draw on to say we can create a different type of relationality that isn’t rooted in notions of productivity or extraction. Clar, I think it might have been you and one of our first conversations, when we were talking about you applying, I think you, I think you’re the student who asked me, How many papers do I need to write each year, how many presentations do I need to do? And I was like, Oh my gosh, that I understand that that happens at certain universities. But this is not the sort of extractive relationship that we need to, we need to create, well, under the rubric of the state, right? So, so, yeah, I mean, I think that we’re really working that loosely coupled organization to its max capacity and thinking about, what can we do? I’m Oh talked about this idea of underworlding Right, that we can create worlds underneath the world that we’re given. And I think that that’s kind of what’s rising to the surface for me. No pun intended.

Heather Shea
I love it. Clar, I’m going to ask the next question, but if you want to also delve into where this conversation is going, because I think this is kind of building, you know, I’m, I’m curious about, because what it sounds like we’ll see and pinner are talking about is, is, you know, little acts of disruption, and also systemic, you know, shifts despite the organizational structures that exist, and I’m curious about, what are those implications on policy and practice? Um, particularly when you know we don’t, we don’t collect sufficient data for, for lots of reasons, you know, Partially, partially because we need to protect identities and and others. But I think when we don’t have data often, I think administrators have a hard time, like, you know, justifying well how many students this is going to affect, or how many, you know, how many people would take advantage of this particular policy? So talk to me a little bit about kind of how all of this overlaps and intersects with dei on our campuses and particularly around data.

Clar C. Gobuyan
Ah, gosh. So I just want to premise that my thinking around. Policy has been largely influenced by Dean spades work. His book normal life talks about administrative violence and really seeing policy as reform rather than really, you know, like targeting the root of the problem, and I’m so glad you mentioned that you know, there’s hesitation gathering data right because of protections, right? And when I think of the word policy, it also has the same root word as policing. And at the same time, I recognize the importance of collecting data. Is there an ethical way to do it, especially with how the country is operating right now, like it makes me nervous just the thought of it, right? And this is, I just want to be clear, this isn’t an argument against policy, but more so like an invitation for us to be thoughtful and think critically about like, what are these policies actually for? Who does it actually serve? Because we can have all these policies on campus, which we do, and at the same time, guaranteed someone on campus is still going to experience transphobia, anti blackness, there’s still violence on campus, and I can’t help but think that having these policies at the end of day is for the benefit of the institution, rather than The people on the ground. And so it’s it’s frustrating, and sometimes it’s scary to think about, especially what’s happening outside the academy.

Z Nicolazzo
Say that again. Clar, the this is, and I know, like you know that the next question Heather that that you were planning to ask is around Trickle Up education. This is like the super important kind of rupture around the proliferation of policies and the proliferation of committees and human capital and time being spent thinking about policy and moving words up in policy. Sarah Ahmed and on being included, talks about this idea of moving diversity up in statements as a signal that committees have done their work around diversity. And there’s a there’s a rupture between policies that are created and data that is amassed to support the creation of those policies and one’s lived experience. Pinra, you talked about this earlier, right, that even though there’s a different there are different protections in Taiwan. That actually doesn’t mean that trans people in Taiwan are free from discrimination, right? I used to when I was when I was collecting data for trans in college, I used to talk about the fact that Miami, which is not where I did the dissertation study, Miami, had a non discrimination policy that included gender identity and gender expression that did not stop discriminatory looks and practices that I experienced on campus, right and and at the same time, I love this kind of both and that you’re doing, Clar, where you’re saying, like, I’m not saying we shouldn’t I’m not saying it’s an either or, but like, we need to be thoughtful about it. We need to think about where it’s housed and who’s housing it. Why are we asking for certain things, right? Like I often tell people, don’t ask for data unless you’re actually going to use it. Don’t put pronouns on a form if you’re not actually going to use that data, right? So yeah, I I see this. I see the answer that you’re you’re sharing Clar kind of as a way to think about Trickle Up education, which comes from Dean spades idea of trickle up activism, which is like, how do we focus on the most marginalized first? Because any rights or access that we gain for those folks will invariably create better environments for people with more access, or at the very least, will not negatively harm them, right? And that often means, I think, creating conditions for livability before people get into the room and ask for conditions to be changed, right? It means thinking about, um. Right? How the carceral state locks up lots of trans people, particularly trans people of color, particularly trans women of color. And what does that mean for higher education in terms of things as mundane as attendance policies in class? What does it mean for us to think about the intersection between trans people’s experiences on campus and the ongoing effects of housing insecurity and houselessness and food insecurity? Yeah, because there are overlaps there, right? What does it mean? Then, when we require that people have access to the internet regularly at their house, to log into class, why? Oh, why are we continuing to require people to have their cameras on when that’s actually quite unsafe for some folks, right? Yeah, of course, we all want to see each other’s faces, but that’s not super safe all the time, right? And, and for folks that have not engaged with his work at all, I would strongly encourage people to read J Michael denton’s work around men who have sex with men and are HIV positive AIDS is not gone. We need to be talking about AIDS. We need to be talking about chronic illness, and we need to be talking about intersections in relation to healthcare with and for queer and trans communities. I think Clar you mentioned the fact that, yeah, trans healthcare is really wonky for faculty and staff at the University of Arizona, after I mentioned that I was a part of a first of its kind, national cluster hire for trans faculty, right? The four of us that were hired, only two of us are still here, and some of that is based on the lack of adequate health care options. So, so, yeah, I think that long way around of saying, like, what you’re talking about, Clar is really kind of going into this idea of trickle up education, right? Like, how do we, how do we do the doing of of diversity and equity work, not just the saying or the pronouncing of diversity and equity work

Clar C. Gobuyan
and like. Oftentimes, from my experience, it’s like a checklist, like a checklist of solution. And the reality is, there, there is, there is no one size fit all. Yeah, solution, right? And like, and oftentimes, like, you know, they rely on a single issue framework, which I find problematic, because, trust me, I want to be affirmed in the classroom, and I want to make sure I have housing, and I want to make sure that I don’t starve, that I’m I’m I’m cared for. And guess what? I want all these students, all of us to have access to all of these things and so, yeah, I would encourage institutional leaders to actually invest in our livability on campus and beyond. Yeah,

Z Nicolazzo
so like you know, going back to Pin-Ru the paper that you were talking about, one of the things that several of us in the department were able to practice over the last couple of years when it came to admissions was Trickle Up education. Right? We have certain resources that we can distribute. How do we think about distributing those resources? How do we think about notions of deservingness, who’s who is deserving of time and effort to seek out fellowships, right? One of the things Clar didn’t know to mention, because Clar’s very humble, is Clar’s a university fellow, which is a very prestigious award on campus. It’s it also takes quite a bit of time and energy for for faculty to write up a nomination to really forward that right there, there are ways that making sure that that we can have international students not just come here but thrive here and be secure in their housing and and all of their needs. Right that those are choices that that we make, that take time, that take energy and and I’m not saying that to like, oh, Patti’s on the back. I’m saying like, this is the hard work of trickle up education. I think sometimes people want a very quick like, oh, just tell me the couple things how to couple ways of how to do it. And I hope it’s not painful. Trickle Up education actually takes some really decided practice, and may include tough decisions and hard conversations for folks who have been told their entire lives that they deserve things and they should get things just because of who they. Are, right, particularly white folks who have loads of access, right? So, so I think there, there are all these different points at which we get to make choices as as administrators and faculty and and I think it’s really about slowing down and thinking about this as a practice, right, an ongoing, regular practice, not what Sarah Ahmed talks about is tick box, tick box diversity. You just check it off, and then you’re done, right?

Heather Shea
Yeah. And I think also interrogating our own complicity within the systems, which sometimes is not, you know, it’s not within our awareness. And so that’s also a hard conversation that we need to have with with ourselves and with each other, because recognizing that I’m also, I’m also thinking a lot about Mickey Kendall book hood feminism, you know, you know the the women the movement forgot Partially, because you know, what we consider to be legitimate feminist issues, right? Versus like, what are the issues that are affecting? You know, all women, and particularly women of color and feminist spaces. So anyway, that’s another reference I think we should include with this episode, a list of reading, you know, like a syllabus of here are the things that would be informative. I mean, we’ve referenced Sarah Ahmed, we’ve talked about Dean Spade. So many good pieces that are, I think, required reading, in addition to transit college for

Z Nicolazzo
before transit College, read the other stuff.

Heather Shea
I think the other thing I’m noting is that we, all the listeners and viewers of this episode and me, have been witness to this incredible community of scholars that you all are a part of. And I think, you know, in kind of closing question today, before we get to our final question, I’d love to hear about the ways in which you built this community, Z and the academic program, the support, support and engagement and encouragement, and then anyone else share, like, what is the role of this peer network and communities and shaping? And how do we film? How do we form those connections and support that are so important for the continuation? Because, because, oh my gosh, it’s not just an individual enterprise,

Z Nicolazzo
yeah, yeah, yeah, all. I’ll just briefly, briefly start off by saying that I have been I, I appreciate Clar your comment about abolition earlier. I i worry not from you, because I know that you’re doing some deep practice around it, but I do worry about how that word is traveling in higher education studies now. I worry about it becoming the next letter that we add on to d, e, i, j, e, whatever we’re doing these days. And I worry about it getting hollowed out. I will say that I have been very thankful to be in community, personally and through the written page, with folks who are doing abolitionist praxis and thinking around abolition in really deep and meaningful ways, and who have invited me to really think about the not only the important activist roots of abolition work, but the importance of freedom dreaming as a connection to and really a bedrock for abolitionist practice. And so some of what I have been trying to think about over the last six years since I’ve been at the U of A in this in this particular faculty role, is what sort of world do I want to co create with folks that supersedes and extends on the world that we’re currently given? And I think that when we first think about freedom dreaming, it always seems really big, but I’m constantly drawn back to this article that Tourmaline wrote for Vogue magazine. And I’ll share this piece, and we can add it to the syllabus, but she wrote this amazing piece about freedom dreaming for Vogue. And there’s the small snippet that that I’ll read. She says, the thing is, Freedom dreaming isn’t just about the big things, the huge world changes that we’re manifesting in our movements like police and prison abolition for universal health care and gender self determination for all when I give myself permission to slow down like this, and particularly when I wonder, what. We already have that we want to keep. What I always notice are the small things. I notice how much I’m already surrounded by the world I dream of, and sometimes people I know, sometimes folks think I’m a little sappy, but I really do believe that this community with you, Pin-Ru and Clar, with the other queer and trans students that that I advise and that I get to learn with, and that I get to engage with in the classroom, some of whom are even beyond the higher ed program that that we are dreaming of a really exciting world, and we’re not waiting for that, right? We’re doing that now despite the current conditions of life, and maybe, maybe especially because of these conditions, right? We’ve, we’ve come together to dream something really powerful. And so I think that sometimes there’s a concern. People say, like, oh, what? What good is just dreaming stuff? Like, I think the three of us feel, feel pretty darn supported, not that, not that everything is rosy now, but like, I think we feel the effects of that freedom dreaming together. And I think that that’s been pretty, pretty powerful, and I hope that that’s something that continues to ripple out as people move into through and then out from, from this particular sort of community, this this hub of of queer and trans knowledge, that that we’re continuing to create.

Clar C. Gobuyan
Oh, yeah, I just have to say, yeah. Z, like, I remember when I applied into this program, something you told me was that there are folks in the program that share similar identities as me, who think similarly. And that was when you connected me to Sai Sims, who is a graduate of our program. And sai gave me so much love. We chatted two or three times on the phone and on Zoom, you know, helped me really feel supported. Coming into Arizona, a predominantly white institution, the first I’ve ever attended, and because of that love that they shared me, shared with me like I was like, I’m gonna pass this on, because this has been so beautiful, and I want to make sure I continue. And then that’s when I met Pin-Ru, and I wanted to be as supportive as possible. And that freedom dreaming, I want to say, like for me in this group, like it started in the classroom, and it’s moved beyond, and I hope this is okay for me to share. Z last, last December, I got top surgery, and unfortunately, the insurance doesn’t completely cover it, and I needed support, so I reached out to z and she did her magic and helped me get funding that I wouldn’t have otherwise received. And in addition to that, there were a group of trans students from the program who were part of my care team and my care network. And I think when I think about freedom dreaming, it’s it’s really about relationship building. How do we how do we honor each other’s humanity in that space? And I’m at a point in my life where, like, I don’t want relationships that are transactional. I want something that’s transformative, that’s going to challenge me and hold me and allow me to hold them

Z Nicolazzo
as well. Yeah, yeah. I think that, you know, there the, I’m certainly fine with you talking about that. Okay, good. And I would say that there are some, there are some institutional mechanisms that we were able to to really figure out, and I would say, like, get funding that helped you not only cover medical expenses, but also live post medical expenses, but also we did things that were non institutional, like trains, right, like there. So there are all these other ways, if we think from a trickle up perspective, that we might even not by I think we necessarily are not just thinking about institutional sorts of lives, right, or institutional sorts of ways of being,

Clar C. Gobuyan
yeah, and it was just so powerful to be held in such a way, especially as someone who spent majority of of their life in academia. Academia wants a very specific part of myself, right? They want my intellect. They want what I look like in the academy, because I am, in some ways a prototype, right? Like I. I’m, I’m the, I’m the DEI babe, right? And there’s something really special to to be able to connect with the group of trans scholars that I’ve connected with, and at the same time help me feel so loved and cared for, beyond my identity as a scholar, as a student,

Heather Shea
so beautiful, Pin-Ru, what would you add about networks, communities, support freedom, dreaming?

Pin-Ru Su
I also what Clar has shared. Also, let me remember the time that I haven’t arrived here. I send an email, email for the asking about the question and how I can imagine study here, and also the like during that covid time, like the Asian hate is happening in the US. So I really cannot imagine what could be. And also, like, they connect me to Clar and and that’s really helped me, like, is in the mental level, it’s really helped me to settle down. Like, help me feel like, oh, having this choice is doing the right thing. And now, like, Clar and I live in the same community compartment, we also talk about, oh, did, did you hear something, or were like something like like that. So I think that having a support with each other and share the mutual like relationship is important. Because the thing that I feel a lot after I call me here is that the power is not always in one people. The power is fluid like it is a shared power around not only faculties, between faculties, but also the faculty and the student, I think that is important, because only is that, then the power will not be control behave on just one specific person, but others people can do the things and can do, do the social justice all together. I think that is important for me and what I’m doing now, also writing a book with other international Korean trans student. I think that’s also a good support, yeah,

Clar C. Gobuyan
yeah. And I just, I just want to share like we are the kinship. We are part of kinship network Z wrote about in her book, and this is us in practice, and it’s very beautiful to witness.

Heather Shea
I don’t want to end this conversation because I am so enthralled, enamored, in love with the community that you all have built, and I am. I’m so grateful for the time that you’ve spent today, and as I’ve always joked, I never make episodes short because I’m so engaged in the conversation. We do end each podcast with this. This, you know, channel is called Student Affairs NOW we’re always looking at kind of, what are you thinking about, troubling, pondering. So if you want to share a final thought and any other information about how folks can connect with you if you’d like. That would be amazing. Pin-Ru, I’m going to start with you.

Pin-Ru Su
Oh, before looking at this question, I’m thinking about, should I share something academic or something like besides academic? So if this besides academic is, like, what I’m thinking about now is what I’m going to eat for dinner. Because no, yeah, and I watched the chicken right there. So yeah, that’s what I’m thinking about that. And if this is for academic, definitely the part that maybe I need to catch up for my progress of my dissertation. Yeah, my advisor is sitting here. So, yeah, just kidding. So you can find me on LinkedIn, or I can leave an email if you want to connect with me. Yeah, and I happy to connect with like more, like international student credentials, people, yeah, awesome.

Heather Shea
Thank you so much. Clar

Clar C. Gobuyan
what am I thinking about now? Certainly not food, but I should probably think about dinner. I think I’m thinking about like, I. What more we can do as folks in in the institution, to connect with folks outside, because I think there’s a really important opportunity for us to build especially like, I’m thinking about, you know, like I’m within a in two years, I’m gonna, I’m gonna have a PhD behind my name and it’s and I recognize it’s going to carry power. And what can I do then, to serve communities outside of the academy, like I want to be able to be transformative beyond and you could find me on my LinkedIn.

Heather Shea
thank you. Clar Z, your thoughts,

Z Nicolazzo
oh gosh, I’m just resting in gratitude for this conversation. Thanks Heather for reaching out, for making it happen. Thanks to all of the folks at Student Affairs now for for providing this space, it’s been really nice. You know, currently I am blissfully on sabbatical, and so conversations like this make it hard for me to be on sabbatical, right? Conversations like this make me want to rush back and hear more about the work that you two are doing, and talk about ideas and all of this kind of stuff, because ultimately, at the end of the day, I understand that I’ve written quite a bit. I did a bunch of stuff pre tenure and also now post tenure, but I’ve made a pivot in the last couple of years to really thinking about my energy being animated by being with folks as they develop their projects and as they develop their ideas. So that’s in large part, working with doctoral students and candidates, particularly queer and trans doctoral students and candidates, but it also is one of the reasons why I’ve moved into this executive editor role for about campus. It’s exciting to think about knowledge production and knowledge generation, and thinking about that as a wellspring for world building. So that’s, yeah, you folks make me want to, like, go back to the office. I will say the thing that I’m thinking about right now is the podcast Heather, that you mentioned round about campus for the magazine me and my co hostess, Alex Lang, are working on season three, which is built around the idea of a book club, and the book that we’re going to be reading with folks as permission to rest by Ashley nice. And so I’m really thinking about rest, about the restorative practice of rest, about building in strategies and techniques to carry that with me post tenure, and to think about how moving closer to rest, as difficult as it is for me and for lots of other People, can really create a space of of gentleness for for all the people that that I hold really dear in my life. And I think that that, yeah, it’s just another rupture to notions of of productivity and and that everything is urgent, right? So I’m trying to slow down, to enjoy nature, to wander, and hopefully that will make me not just a better worker and a better advisor, but also a better human in the long run. So in terms of where people can reach me, not via email for the next few months, but, but you can reach me via email starting in 2025 I also for folks that are ACPA members, that are listening, watching. I will be at the annual convention and Long Beach pop round, say hi, hopefully about campus, we’ll have several program proposals that are accepted, so we’ll be talking about the magazine, and very happy to chat about ideas that people have that they want to write for the magazine, as well as just get to know each other. Yeah,

Heather Shea
Awesome. I will see you in Long Beach, and I just want to as a personal kind of thing I’m thinking about and taking forward from this. Just want to express gratitude for this book, one more time, for the conversation today. This is personal for me, and really does, I think, impact those, those who. I work in and alongside trans college students, you know, campus environments. And you know, for me, I want that for my children. I want that for, you know, our world’s children, and I’m really grateful for the work that you all are doing and building this base of scholarship. Because I do think the grand experiment called Higher education is is worth it right in the end. So thank you again for your time, and I can’t wait for this episode to get out into the world so we can talk about it and share it, and that will only be made possible because of my incredible producer, Nat Ambrosey, thank you, Nat, for all of your behind the scenes work to make us look and sound great. I am also deeply grateful to today’s episode sponsors, Huron and Routledge Taylor and Francis. Huron is a global professional services firm that collaborates with clients to put possible into practice by creating sound strategies, optimizing operations, accelerating digital transformation and empowering businesses and their people to own their future, by embracing diverse perspectives, encouraging new ideas and challenging the status quo, Huron creates sustainable results for the organizations they serve. And Routledge Taylor and Francis is the world’s leading academic publisher and education publishing a wide range of books, journals and other resources for practitioners, faculty, administrators and researchers, and they have welcomed Stylus publishing, which is the publisher of this book to their program, and are using all of those titles to enrich their offerings in higher education, student affairs, professional development, assessment and more. We are so grateful for their support of the podcast. You can view their complete catalog at rutledge.com/education to all of our listeners. If you’re tuning in today and haven’t already subscribed to our weekly newsletter, please take a moment enter your email. We send out one email per week on Wednesdays, where you’ll get the most recent episode delivered right to your inbox. And you can do that by entering your email address on our website. Studentaffairsnow.com while you’re there, visit our archives. We have over 220 episodes, several of which I think will be of interest to folks listening to today’s podcast. So I welcome you to reach out to any of us once again. I’m Heather Shea. Thanks to everybody who’s watching listening, let’s make it a great week.