Anne M. Hornak
So the power of empathy will be your superpower in working with students. That’s my first thing is, you know, trying to understand, I think we love to fix things. I don’t have all the answers. I don’t, I don’t, I can’t, just, I don’t have any magic policy, you know, stop this is going to take a community to but if we can think about the struggles and how hard this is, and then kind of work backwards from there, what can we do? And I’m in no way advocating that money solves everything. I mean, yes, there’s a lot of stories I could tell you, and money will do a lot, but so many of the the people that I met in the situations that I had are really about like, wraparound services and being supportive throughout so. So we can’t, we can’t think about transitions and then forget, you know, sort of how hard it gets after that. That’s incredibly, incredibly important.

Heather Shea
Welcome to Student Affairs NOW. The online learning community for Student Affairs educators. I am your host, Heather Shea today, we are diving into the second part of our two part conversation with Dr. Anne Hornak, a professor of higher education at Central Michigan University. If you haven’t watched part one, we recommend you go back and listen to that before starting part two. If you watch part one, you know that Anne took on a very unique sabbatical project last year where she worked full time while taking a full load of classes at a community college to see if, like Barbara Einreich and nickel and dimed, she would be able to make it all work and study uncovered many components of the unique challenges facing financially strapped college students. Student Affairs NOW is the premier podcast and learning community for 1000s of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We hope you’ll find these conversations make a contribution to the field and are restorative to the profession. Release new episodes every week on Wednesdays, and you can find us at studentaffairsnow.com on YouTube or anywhere you listen to podcasts.

Heather Shea
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I’m, I mean, I’m thinking of students on on my campus and, and also students on your campus and, and, you know, maybe differently served through some of the resources. But if we think about all the college students at community colleges, you know, two year four year low. Well, right then you start thinking the scope of this need is so great, and that’s where I think your study is really fascinating in terms of the takeaways that you know we as higher education Ed administrators, who do student success work, need to have a better understanding of all of the complexities of students lives. It’s not just come, come to campus, go to school, go home anymore. You know, it’s a it’s rare that students are having that experience. I think what you’re describing is much more, much more typical. So I’m really interested in, you know, we talk a lot in student affairs about challenge and support, right? And it sounds like some of the biggest supports you were both able to receive as well as give were through this workplace environment, you know, not necessarily through the campus environment. So I don’t know if there’s anything else you want to say about, like, what else could the campus have have done to support and maybe it’s about this kind of, like, sense of belonging community component, but I think your experience is probably really typical of students who just, you know they Nobody knows my name. I’m going to just kind of remain anonymous. So yeah, one of the

Anne M. Hornak
so the beauty of where I worked and where I went to school was the same community. So many of my co workers were also they weren’t my classmates, but they were the same institution. So I always think like there’s a reason you do things and maybe don’t even think about them, but because I am pretty well versed, having been a student affairs, you know, practitioner, educator, Administrator, you’re now, you know, teaching in a higher ed program is I’m aware of, not all the resources, but a lot of them. And because I also live in the community, there were times when I served as, like, did you know? Or, you know, I would just hear a conversation and you know, I could say, did you know that, like, I bet your institution has a writing center, or I bet your institution has a math help room, or, you know, just some kind of general but bigger than that was, I was also able to say, you know, that there’s a whole wing of, like, student success coaches, academic advisors, and that will help you, like, navigate and do all of this stuff, Because paying for classes. I think also, we know that transfers really challenging. And I think we’re extra challenged in the state of Michigan because we’re like the wild west of you know, education. So for those of you listening like we’re not a system state, so there’s no guarantee you we have affiliation and articulation agreements with institutions. But there, it’s not set up like one for one in all cases. So working with an advisor is essential to not overtake or undertake like kind of utilize both. And you know, I would one time I heard students talking about, oh, I went and picked up, you know, the the guide, and it said, you know, whatever institution on the top of it. So it should work for, you know, this major, and for me to transfer, even though I maybe don’t want to go to x institution. And I was like, Okay, I’m just totally eavesdropping. This is how I I said, I’m totally eavesdropping on you, but you might want to actually, I said, because the requirements at, you know, Eastern Michigan University could be really different than Western Michigan University or Central Michigan University, and I happen to know that the institution they were looking at doesn’t have that program. So I thought, you can’t, you know, and it was a little bit like, I wasn’t trying to be like, oh, all knowing and stuff, but it was so. I think there were times when some of my coworkers were like, Wait, how do you know that it was I felt like, Okay, this I was meant to, like, be standing here eavesdropping at this moment and maybe save somebody, like, a ton of heartache, of, oh my gosh, I took all these classes, and this isn’t but we haven’t made, we haven’t made that easy for students. And I don’t know, I mean, I, I’ve never worked in the system state to to to know that, but I know that the the legislation and the way that system states are set up is it, it is much more seamless than it is in this state, and we have to do a better job for that. It creates a better pipeline, too for ease and in of transfer students, both in the state out of the state, across institutions. I just you know as 50% of our students start at community colleges, 50% of. Our undergraduate or high school graduates, you know, we’re not talking about a few, a few students here. We’re talking about the majority of our students.

Heather Shea
Yeah, I’m reminded of a book that I read while I was in the doctoral program here called College Unbound by Jeff selingo. And he talks about, you know, kind of like we, we have this perception a student finishes high school immediately starts in college, does that full time for four years and then leaves. But like, unbundling, like degree programs, credentials, you know, making transfer processes easier, demystifying the funding, you know, and the book was just, it’s fascinating. I mean, who is the editor of the Chronicle? But as you were speaking about some of the like, the meta issues that I think higher education in the US at least. I mean, this is the other thing is, this is very us specific in other countries, it is really interesting how educational systems maybe work better or differently for, you know, working students, people who are going back into getting a degree. But I, I’ve been thinking a lot about like that, you know what, if we had to remake the systems right and create a different way for people to get what they need to be? You know, learn, learn, thrive and graduate from our institutions. Like, what? What would that look like? And how would we design higher ed differently, right? And this that your study kind of makes me kind of go to that, like, higher high level question,

Anne M. Hornak
right? Well, and I think we always think, Oh, if we just had, like, free community college or two years free, like this, would all sort of go away. And I think it’s bigger than that, because it’s not just about paying for school, it’s also life, and so many of the individuals that I met along the way are in this cycle of low income work. So it’s like most you know, when I would hear them talk about their families and where they came from and what people do in their lives is it wasn’t, you know, my dad’s an orthopedic surgeon and my mom’s a, you know, university professor. It was, you know, my dad’s a mechanic and, or I don’t, I’m from a single parent home, or, you know, custodial work, lots of multi generational people working at the restaurant. And, I mean, this restaurant, and I would say this probably about corporate restaurants, because I kind of learned this are, they’re good to their people. They’re, you know, they create a, I would definitely go back there. I mean, the management was really good. The company’s a good company. It, I mean, it’s corporate America, but you happen to be doing, you know, blue collar work there. So that was definitely like, you can see that cycle of, you know, like parents working with their kids at this restaurant. And, you know, where do we break that cycle? So if we were to do it all over again, like, I think free education doesn’t get the job done. Like, we have to think about other ways. You know, I’m I, one of my biggest things was tips. So tips, tips, we’ve confused the whole tipping process in this country. So yes, when I told people that I make $3.93 an hour. Like, people would like, fall over and say what I said. I know. I had a little bit of shock. I’m like, wow. And I started January of 2024, when it went up. So that was, like, a raise. I don’t know what it was before that, but,

Heather Shea
like, 215 or something. I don’t know. I don’t know exactly, but yeah,

Anne M. Hornak
and so, but when you go to another, no other place, so everywhere else. And I don’t want to, like, call out, like companies and stuff, but we see tip jars everywhere now, and those individuals are making at least minimum wage. I get minimum wage is not a living wage, but they’re not dependent on their tip to make minimum wage, like tipped workers are. So when we when you go to a restaurant or somewhere where you’re sitting down and someone’s serving you, and you’re like, Oh, my service wasn’t very good. I’m only going to tip this person, like 10% you’re you’re just taking away money, like you’re not proving any point, like, I never walked away and thought, oh, gosh, I could have done better at that table. I mean, I there’s lots of times I could have done better at a table, but I don’t, when I was punished for that, it just made me kind of salty. And I thought, wow, you’ve no You’ve no idea, like, now I can’t buy those, you know, I can’t buy the diapers I need, or I can’t buy the. Like, the impact is so much greater than just, like, telling someone like you stunk, like, that’s, I mean, so we really have to think about that. Like we this relationship with and, you know, other countries have just gone away from it because it gave people a living wage and be done with it. And then it’s not a game of it’s just not a game anymore. And I like our relationship with the tipping culture is just, it’s really tenuous, and it just it’s so impactful in some of the things that this that restaurant restaurants not specific to the one I worked at, but in general do is, like, these competitive things about, you know, drink sales and time to get food in the computer, you know, like the time it takes, because everything’s like, tracked from an iPad to when they walk in the door to sit down the food. And think, you know, people, the servers that have the the least amount of time, we’ll get the most hours. So we’re also, they’re also doing that to sort of incentivize and I think it’s actually a backfire, and it’s hurting, it’s hurting our college student workers the most because I also work with high school students. They, you know, who, most of them, like, honestly, were awesome. But were there like, for fun that was like, fun money, especially in the community that I happen to be in, yeah, and if they had enough money, like, made enough tips for probably gas and whatever else they needed, I don’t know what their home lives were like, but they would call in, like, lots on Thursdays and Fridays, because in the managers knew that they’re like, oh, you know, this is when the high school students start to call in because they have enough money, like, if they happen to work some other days, which, whatever, I don’t judge that it, it was a benefit to the college students, because then they could pick up those shifts. So there’s a, just a really interesting like, on and on around that too, which I thought that’s just kind of fascinating to me. But there’s other, like, kind of really consequential things that did hurt individuals and their ability to, you know, get ahead, or, you know, get what they needed to pay for what they needed that I think, you know, corporate America sort of thinks this is good for my bottom line, but doesn’t think about the worker at all. I definitely, too. Yeah.

Heather Shea
I mean labor, you know, just in in the ways in which labor is constructed and I and also compensated. You know, your point about other countries is really interesting. I don’t know if I told you this in previous times, but I lead an undergrad study abroad, and when we go to Europe, the students are often like, oh my gosh, the service is so it’s so slow, it’s so it’s so terrible, whatever, whatever their judgment is, right? I’m like, it’s because they are not rushing you out the door. Because they’re they’re going to get paid, whether you’re there for 30 minutes or three hours, the same and that, that they’re not expected to tip comes at this benefit. But there’s also this, like, critique, right? And so it was, yeah, yeah. And an expectation, expectation, right? And so I have kind of unpacked that as far as, like, a, how do we value work, and what is, what is work in the United States? And do you realize, when you go into a restaurant that turning over the table is really important? So when you your friends, and you go there and you, you know, just have water, and you’re occupying that space you’re taking the tip, you know, potentially, like, the person’s not going to get the paid the same for that time period that you’re there.

Anne M. Hornak
I did have a table that stayed for five hours once, oh my, your time I was there. But they also tipped me, like, $50 for, like, I think they had, like, coffee and desserts or, I don’t know, it was friends that haven’t seen each other in like, 20 years. I actually it was the coolest story ever, and they were lovely. And I, I felt like, so I, when I got kind of good at what I was doing, yeah, over, sort of like, over, probably bug people. And they kept saying, like, you don’t have to come back here anymore. We’ll still give you a good tip. And I thought, Oh my gosh. Like, I’m that, like, annoying person. You have to find a balance with, yeah, yeah, because I, I in Asia too. Same thing, like, there’s no tipping culture. You can take a table for five hours and like, nobody’s going to rush you out and they’re going to, you know, you, you can just kind of hang out. Plus the pace of like, life is like, yeah, you know, sharing bread, breaking bread is, you know, that’s a like, cultural like, really important. And here we’re like, eat really fast. Eat

Heather Shea
really fast. And then we wonder why. There’s, you know, issues with you. Fast food and eating fat. You know, all of the different, all of the different other health impacts as well. I’m really, I’m really interested, and we’ve talked about, talked about, kind of the bigger picture level. We’ve talked about the like institutions and the work environment. But what did you learn about yourself through this process? And this might be a good point to mention your blog, because I’m sure people who are interested might be really like your blog is really fantastic at describing kind of the day to day. So I’d love to hear more about what you learned about yourself and then how you kind of documented that reflection.

Anne M. Hornak
Yeah, I so I like, when I think about this, I think of like, what were the ways that I so I learned that I have so much privilege in my life, I really had to sort of check that every day, especially every day to work classes, I think you just get in the pattern of it when I went to work, I had to really kind of check myself at the door and like so I think of myself as a pretty kind, like, pretty patient person. I learned that that’s not the world like, that’s not probably most of the people that I worked with that I interacted with, um, there’s lots of people that just have so much going on in their lives. And, like, I started thinking of them as, like, rude because they didn’t want to, like, chit chat and talk and stuff. And I thought that’s really, that’s really biased on my part, like, I have no idea what’s going on in this person’s life. And, you know, I’m here out of like, I’m here because I’m doing something, but I don’t, next week, I don’t have to be here, you know, I always, I always, really thought about that, and I don’t, I don’t want to say like, oh, I’m a kind of a judgmental person, but, I mean, I think I knew this, but the role of class in our society is so huge, so huge, just navigating even, even being a good server, like language and talking to people and, you know, restaurants get, we know this, if I was able to disclose a restaurant, people would be like, Ah, I get it. I mean, it was not a high end it, you know, think of a kind of a middle of the road restaurant, um, it gets a whole swath of people that, you know, come there regulars, you know, whatever. So I realized that I I was like, kind of, I got really good at sort of relating with people in their sort of place, the customers i i Never, there were people that I never connected with working and I don’t, you know, I work really hard to try to understand people just because I love, I’m fascinated by people I love, people I love community. I I feel such I felt such a kinship with so I did kind of take a step back and say, This isn’t about me. It’s not something you’re doing. It’s something you’re not doing. Um, the work is just hard, you know, like trying to understand and empathize with someone who’s life, I think I told I said this earlier, but it is that is such hard work. I mean, it is back breaking exhausting. And then, you know, like at the end of the end of the night, you have to sweep and move tables, and you’re just exhausted and dirty and hot, and, you know, feel gross and want nothing. You know, you’re you’re ticket out is, you know, finishing up this look side work and stuff and but not doing it puts that labor on someone else, like someone either the next morning or the custodial staff like to have to stay longer. So I was really, really thoughtful about that, but I also watched people not do it and just like, leave and be allowed to do that. So even the way, kind of we set up sort of exit strategies in the restaurant world are really interesting, but I always had to take a step back and, you know, kind of temper that, and not, not, you know, it wasn’t my role to police that. And you know, kind of be all knowing. I also learned that I have lots of really good ideas, and I had to, like, really be thoughtful about, like, what, why? I mean, I always wanted to understand the why we do the things the way we do. I did have a little bit of an opportunity at the in one of my exit interviews to one of the people asked me, like, are there other ways that you would, you would. Do this. And one of the things I’ll just tell you, so when people leave, the servers, like, leave for the evening, they always, you know, there’s about a half an hour or so, like, I get out at 530 someone else gets out at six, 630 whatever they do that, you know, super intentionally. And then we whittle down to, like, one or two people that are closing. And the closing people do get a little extra money they do. I did it once, and I was like, I don’t ever want to do this again. It’s there’s, like, so many things to remember, and there’s no list. So when I closed the one night, I said, I have to have, like, what if I forget to, like, turn the coffee pot off and, like, burn the place down, or this. And I was just so worried about, like, these safety things. So I stayed the night before and wrote every single thing down that you do, so that in the morning, like the night shift, didn’t get yelled at for, you know, not doing something. And you never know when the health people will come. I’ll tell you this, there’s some health people come, so that now we had this list someone I offered to type it up. We typed it up, we laminated it, and we had this, like, nice,

Heather Shea
you know, closing list, checklist, yeah, and I,

Anne M. Hornak
so there’s a contribution, but I, I worked hard not to be that person, like, yeah,

Heather Shea
not to be the better innovative

Anne M. Hornak
yes person, because there’s also lots of things that worked really nicely. But the one thing I never understood, because it’s such a power differential, was whoever’s the checker, that’s like, the closer person would check other people out. So they would check my tables like, to make sure they’re clean. Make sure, you know, like, there’s ADA stuff with like, salt and pepper shakers and sugar packets and counting and stuff like that for, you know, visually impaired the yeah, there’s other like things specifically with the restaurant that you know, when you walk into one of the when you walk into a chain restaurant, it should look the same at every chain, right? Yeah. So some people were really good about checking and doing that. Other people were, I think, a little intimidated, like I was older than them or so, and so was older than them, or been there longer, like the power differential. And, I mean, I get it was power like, you know, with a small p, but, you know, I told them, I said, that’s like, really hard for people. That’s, you know, I could easily say to someone, like, I did that, you know, and not, or I’m not going to do that, or, I mean, it would just, it’s just, it creates, it’s sort of, we do this in residence life sometimes, of moving people around, and now you’re supervising with no conversation, and those, some of those dual relationships, like, don’t work. And so that was one I felt like, like, kind of a big like, I needed to, I needed to check myself on that. But I also, like, when I was invited to share some of these things, I so the privilege of, like, having a little bit of experience and education was kind of something I learned about myself and and then I a big one was, and I’ll just kind of name this is, I got to navigate college. I worked all through college, but my dad stuck on a land mine at Vietnam. He’s alive, but he so for a long time, he was the only 100% disabled lost, and I’m kind of has some swiss cheese stuff going on from the land mine, but it was also the 100 100% employed. So I went to college on the GI Bill. Now, navigating that was a whole different story. But I also didn’t pay for college. And I think of like I thought about that probably almost every single day when I listened to the stories of some of my co workers, and I didn’t talk to my classmates so but I’m guessing there’s, like, some very similar, you know, sorts of intersections there that was I just learned, just classes huge, and I just think we have To kind of constantly be introspective about our own privilege and what that means and how to leverage that. You know, sometimes I think I did a good job with that. I failed in other parts, and probably looked like a know it all, but I really, I worked really hard at at that and learning that about myself, you know, was huge. And you know, it’s for everything that you know, days that I think are really hard is it’s nothing compared to the stress of, you know, not knowing, not knowing, you know, will I be able to continue in this program? Will I, you know, like it just I, that’s kind of overwhelming to me. I know we can’t take on those, those, but when you know people really well and you can’t, you know, I never meant to be a savior, but just understanding that now is just huge to me. And I feel like I feel incredibly lucky and privileged. Just know that, because I feel like I can use some of my privilege to help some of my students, just by understanding that and knowing and maybe sharing the stories, you know, even in an incognito sort of way.

Heather Shea
I’m thinking also about, I know you’re a parent, right? Like, I’m also a parent. I have a college student, but I’m also thinking about like, how do we also share these lessons with you know, our partners, or our children and and others who we maybe have a more direct influence on, even if they’re not the ones who are living that experience, but, and this isn’t even in our like questions, but I’m really curious what your kids and your partner thought about all of this process like and, and how you talked about it like, were you able to reflect and have kind of processing questions with them?

Anne M. Hornak
Yeah, so my kids, I told so I have a 2020. I time and a 20 year old. So they’re 24 and 21 now. And my daughter is graduated and working. She’s in an MBA program, but works full time too, and lives out in Arizona, so and my son is studying abroad in Mexico this semester. So yes, they were along through the whole journey, my partner came in probably once a week and would die. And then my son came in twice, one time. This is so funny. He says, Mom, the guy asked for a coke. Take the guy a coke. And I’m like, Oh my Oh, my tables are all set. I can, like, stand here and chat for a couple of minutes. Yeah, that was so funny. Yeah. So he was, like, taking care of me. And, yeah, it was really funny. I’m like, Oh my gosh, the coke

Unknown Speaker
they, you know,

Anne M. Hornak
they were on board. They thought it was, like, kind of the coolest thing ever. It was probably, I was, like, the coolest mom ever for, you know, 16 weeks, but we talked a lot about the privilege they have of not being strapped by student loan debt, like the things that they can do. So my daughter went out to Arizona to do an internship. She ended up staying, but there’s no way she could have done that, just if we said, Just go like, you know, she needed seed money, she needed rent money. She, I mean, she got paid. But, you know, it takes, what, a month to get paid a new job.

Unknown Speaker
So we,

Anne M. Hornak
I mean, I definitely try to keep that in the fore for them. This isn’t like your experiences. Are, you know, unique experiences. I grew up incredibly working class, so I feel like that’s always my roots, that’s I was never not for anything, though I we didn’t. We always had food on the table and, you know, clothes on our back. And, you know, we college was always both. My parents have an education, but they are not an educationist teacher, so they, you know, there wasn’t they. They definitely live paycheck to paycheck for a very long time with three kids. But I think the power of education, my kids like kind of understand that now and that, but it’s also an immense privilege and holds a lot of responsibility. Yeah, the cool factor is still my favorite.

Heather Shea
That’s great. That is great. Final, kind of wrap up question I’d love to hear, kind of what lessons or insights would you want folks, whether they’re administrators, Student Affairs, educators, graduate students, people are typically listen to our podcast. What would you like them to learn from this experience? You know, we talked a little bit about practices and policies that would be better supportive to students who are financially strapped and who are balancing school and work. But if you could, like, encapsulate, like, what is the biggest takeaway that you would want folks who are listening to this episode kind of think about as they’re as they’re processing?

Anne M. Hornak
Mm, hmm. So the power of empathy will be your superpower in working with students. That’s my first thing is, you know, trying to understand, I think we love to fix things. I don’t have all the answers. I don’t, I don’t, I can’t, just, I don’t have any magic policy, you know, stop this is going to take a community to but if we can think about the struggles and how hard this is, and then kind of work backwards from there, what can we do? And I’m in no way advocating that money solves everything. I mean, yes, there’s a lot of stories I could tell you, and money will do a lot, but so many of the the people that I met in the situations that I had are really about like, wraparound services and being supportive throughout so. So we can’t, we can’t think about transitions and then forget, you know, sort of how hard it gets after that. That’s incredibly, incredibly important. We need to do a better job in our college campuses of talking to each other across our campus, especially when I was at Michigan State for a very long time. It’s we do so much siloed work and so much good, siloed good work that’s siloed, and the left hand doesn’t know what the right hand is doing sometimes. And, you know, like I said before, these are the students that were are going to get lost because they don’t rise to the top of some report or, you know, and we have to figure that out. Like, we have to figure out, you know, short of going to every restaurant, and, you know, I’m, I’m joking, but, yeah, we have to figure out, like, I don’t want to profile, but, you know, how do we capture these, these students that are really on the financial edge, they’re on the financial cliff, and a lot of them are going to walk away with a huge investment, with nothing to show. And that is, I mean, we already, that’s already a huge problem in in our society is, you know, how do we recapture but how do we keep these students and support them in ways that’s meaningful. Not a monolithic group at all. They’re so unique. But there’s gotta be some ways that we can resource them. There’s, you know, and capture them in our in our resources, so they don’t get lost and fall through the cracks. Yeah,

Heather Shea
and this has been such a fabulous conversation today, I’d love to hear your fine like, typically, we always end every episode with, what are you thinking about, troubling, concerned about? Now, maybe you want to answer that, and if folks can get in touch with you, what’s the best way and and definitely your your blog will post in our show notes,

Anne M. Hornak
yeah, and I’ll put my email too, so they can anybody perfect. Um, what I wish I could do this longer. I wish I could. I wish I could. So I would, if I did this again, I would have a research partner. I would have someone who’s living this, like, as my, you know, sort of like a duo ethnography, and like, walk along and like, you know, we talk about walking in people’s shoes. I sort of walked in my own shoes, in a you know, kind of way. But like, actually having a co researcher to, you know, collaborate with, I think would be pretty awesome. So if someone else wants to do that study, you know, please, that’s, that’s one, you know, I never went into this thinking I wanted to write a book. I can’t. I could never do what Barbara did. I, you know, but I, one of the things I found is, I think there’s so many, there’s so many individuals in higher education that know this, like, we get this. Like, this is, yeah, it’s not new. I want to talk to chemistry faculty, to engineering faculty, to people outside of our student affairs, higher ed bubble business faculty, like academics, don’t like I think are starting to kind of understand who’s in their classes. But this is again, I mean, we all have these invisible identities that are really impactful in being a financially strapped student is definitely an identity. I mean, we don’t have hats, we don’t have buttons. We don’t, you know, they sit in our classes and are probably, you know, have a life experience stressed out there. Yeah. So I want to talk to faculty. I want to just keep talking to people. And of course, I’m doing, you know, the stuff that I have to do post. Post sabbatical in terms of research, but I think there’s powers in just the story. So I feel so incredibly lucky that I was able to share my story in this

Heather Shea
Yeah, and this could be it forwarded out right like, if you’re listening today, think of five faculty on your campus that should hear this right and share the blog, yes, yeah, yeah,

Anne M. Hornak
yeah. There’s also, like, funny stories in there, and I think, like, you would have so much next time you walk into a restaurant, which is probably shared among lots of people listening, you just have a really different perspective of who’s helping you, maybe more empathy and care and kindness, which you know goes a long way too,

Heather Shea
yeah, and particularly if they’re a college student, right? I mean, I think that’s a whole nother, a whole nother layer, yes,

Anne M. Hornak
yes, absolutely, absolutely.

Heather Shea
All right. Well. Again. Thank you so much. I learned so much, and I really appreciate you bringing this idea. And I can’t wait to release this episode. It’s going to be, I think the book will be, you know, an amazing resource for folks too. We’ll probably link nickel and dimed in our show notes as well, but I think this brings it home to the way that we do our work and how we can better support students. So thank you so much. Anne, I also just want to take a moment, as we always do, to express our gratitude to Nat Ambrosey, our incredible producer. Nats efforts behind the scenes do not go unnoticed, and we are so thankful for all the work she does. And to all of our listeners who are tuning in today and haven’t already subscribed to our weekly newsletter, you can take a moment to enter your email address on our website at studentaffairsnow.com we release episodes every week on Wednesdays, and we always release a newsletter every week, on Wednesday, so you’ll know first which new episodes are out. And while you’re on our website, you can visit our archives. We have over 230 episodes at this point. And if you’re listening and can leave a review or forward this to a friend that also helps too. Once again, I’m Heather. Shea. Thanks to everybody who’s watching and listening. Let’s make it a great week.

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