Susana Muñoz:
Hello and welcome to Student Affairs NOW. I’M your host Susana Muñoz. Today is a special treat as I get to interview one of my faculty mentors, my sheroes, Dra. Laura Rendon. We’Ll learn about her career, her wisdom, and her insights into the field of higher education and social justice. I am so excited you agreed to do this Dra. Student Affairs NOW is the premier podcast and learning community for thousands of us who work in, alongside, or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We hope you’ll find these conversations make a contribution to the field and are restorative to the profession. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays. Find us at studentaffairsnow.com or on Twitter. We have two sponsors today, Stylus and LeaderShape. Stylus is proud to be a sponsor for the Student Affairs NOW podcast. Browse our Student Affairs, Diversity, and Professional Development titles at styluspub.com.

Susana Muñoz:
Use promo code SANOW for 30% off all books, plus free shipping. You can find Stylus on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, LinkedIn, and Twitter at @styluspub. Also LeaderShape is one of our sponsors today. LeaderShape is a not-for-profit organization that has been partnering with colleges, universities, and organizations, and creating transformational leadership experience. Since since 1986, with a focus on creating a more just caring and thriving world LeaderShape provides both virtual and in-person leadership development opportunities for students and professionals. When you partner with LeaderShape, you will receive quality development experiences that engage learners and topics of courageous, dialogues, integrity, equity, resilience, and community building. To find more about our virtuals programs, please visit leadership at www.leadershape.org/virtualprograms. You can also learn more about the organization on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn. As I mentioned, I’m your host Susana Muñoz, my pronouns are she/her/hers/ella.

Susana Muñoz:
I’m an Associate Professor of Higher Education Leadership at Colorado State University. I’m hosting this conversation today from Fort Collins, CO which is the ancestral home of the Ute, Arapahoe, and Cheyenne peoples. Now let’s get to our conversation. Welcome. Laura!

Laura Rendón:
Hola, Hola, Hola Susana. Es un placer estar contigo.

Susana Muñoz:
So I want to just kind of have you do a quick introduction of yourself and also just though we’ve known each other throughout the years. Just a little quick explanation, how we know each other.

Laura Rendón:
Gracias, well Susana first of all, I’m proud of all that you become and are becoming and it’s just wonderful to have seen your growth from seeing you as a, you know, emerging scholar. And I met you at I believe at Iowa State and you had just finished your doctorate and here you are you know, one of the emerging stars in higher ed. And so I’m always thrilled to see that in students. So congratulations.

Susana Muñoz:
Thank you. Thank you. And you’re retired.

Laura Rendón:
Kind of. Sort of.

Susana Muñoz:
What are you doing with your time right now?

Laura Rendón:
I left the university. So you can say I’m retired from the university, but I’m not retired from the work that I am so passionate about. The work of student success and really fostering success for low-income first-generation students. And so a lot of my time is focused on really working with colleges and universities throughout the nation doing some presentations based on what I’ve learned, my scholarship so that they can in turn, use that work to help them to foster success and equity for students that really need the most help in our society. So that has never left me. And I’m pleased to do that.

Susana Muñoz:
Nice, nice. I have to say, I don’t want to tell the audience that story. I remember taking one of the classes that you did around student retention in higher education. I think you did it with Amaury Nora. And so I think that was very profound for me because you centered it on Latin X students. And for me, because it was profound because I was like, wow, you could do this. You could just center, you know, yourself, you know, so it really gave me permission to really within my own teaching is to make sure that we’re privileged privileging, you know, populations and ourselves in ways that we haven’t never historically been privileged in the curriculum. So thank you for that.

Laura Rendón:
It’s great to hear that because I think that, you know, we, one of the things that the more advanced scholars need to do is to open the doors for the emerging scholars. And one of the ways is to model what we believe in. And so opening that door you know, could include you saying, I’m going to talk about Latin X students. I want to talk about African-American students, I’m going to bring in this literature, I’m going to bring in these speakers and that that’s a sort of affirmation and secondary validation as I would put it, because I used to say, wow, I see myself in that. That’s a very powerful kind of activity to undertake. So thank you for mentioning that.

Susana Muñoz:
Yeah. So, one of my first questions I have for you that is that you’re, you know, you’re a pillar in the field of higher education. You’ve had a career spanning 45 years, is that correct?

Laura Rendón:
Who’s counting! At least 45.

Susana Muñoz:
So have you seen, how have you seen higher education shift over time? You know, in what ways, you know, have you, have you shifted in those 45 years?

Laura Rendón:
Well, there’s been a lot that has happened. And of course, one of the things that I’m really happy to see is more students of color, more faculty and staff of color than when I was starting out 45 years ago or 50, whatever it is. We were at the time you know, one of the few, and those of us that were professors, we were all kind of knew each other. We were, we followed each other’s work. Sometimes we would collaborate it with each other. So I’m happy to see now, if you go to ASHE, if you go to NASPA, ACPA, a strong contingent of, of faculty and staff of color, I, you know, see the student body getting more complex in terms of race, gender, sexuality you know, just all of these intersectional identities that students hold within themselves and how they say, hey, you know, I’m not going to be this or that.

Laura Rendón:
I’m going to embrace everything of who I am. I also see the influence of technology particularly during the pandemic, everyone having to shift to online learning. And I think that, that we’re going to we’re going to see that more and more. I personally love technology. I’m not an expert on it, but I think that we need to really learn more about it because if we don’t, we’re going to be left behind. And I’ve also seen the social issues that impact our society seeping into higher education in a way that they’ve become part and parcel of the curriculum of what higher education becomes concerned about. For example, black lives matter, immigration, gun violence you know, the violence against the LGBTQ+ community. All of these issues are now part of what higher education entertains. And so I, you know, there’s, there’s really not as much separation now between the Academy and what happens in the larger society.

Susana Muñoz:
Yeah. And, you know, one of the things that I think you’ve brought up to me before is your experience as being a chicana at University of Michigan during the second wave of the affirmative action litigations and wondering, you know, we’re still having litigation’s on affirmative action, actually. So, you know, what is it, you know, what specifically, can you pinpoint about the changes in our environment compared to, you know, what it was like for you at, you know, being a chicana in Michigan during the late seventies and eighties?

Laura Rendón:
I think there’s more support now for faculty and students, just because there’s a critical mass now that students and faculty can turn to for support. We did not have as much of a critical mass, when I was at Michigan. We did have a group of us that, you know, we were there and we knew who we were, we supported each other, we had get togethers on weekends, we went out and got a beer or a cup of coffee, and we talked about our lives and what we planned to do, it was really touching, you know, when you think back on those years, and, and, and people went on to do great things, you know we got together with a lot of social workers because Michigan, at the time, they had a really good school of social work and a lot of the, the, the Latin X students were in the social work program.

Laura Rendón:
So we connected a lot with them and they all went on and did great things. There were a few of us in education and in social psychology that I’m good friends with him at people. Like, Aída Hurtado, who’s a superstar in the world of student identities and, you know, social psychology people like Héctor Garza, who was on the, so community and education, and on and on, I mean, it’s just, we were there and the people that were there, many of them went on and did really, really great things. And I’m proud to be a part of that cohort.

Susana Muñoz:
Yeah. I remember at a conference, I was sitting at a table with you. I think it was Sylvia Hurtado, Aída Hurtado. They were all talking about your aventuras that you had in grad school. And it was so fun to just listen to you all sorta like reminisce about like your experiences, you know, and all those, all those events that you all took as grad students.

Laura Rendón:
We were so, so young, I mean, late twenties, early thirties we had hopes, we had dreams. We wanted to just go out and really do the best that we could for our communities. And I, you know, I’m gratified that. I feel that I have, I have done some of that. So yeah, it was a wonderful experience. I have very fond memories of my time as a doctoral student at Michigan.

Susana Muñoz:
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. So you grew up in Laredo, Texas, which is a border town and and, and reading your, your recent memoir. I appreciate your discussion about your relationship with the border. And so how you talked about how the navigation of the borderlands is not a metaphor. Could you share some lessons about how you know, how you’ve gained by what you’ve gained by living through these borderlands?

Laura Rendón:
Right. I mean, growing up in Laredo, Texas early on when Laredo in the fifties, late forties, fifties tremendous poverty there still has a lot of poverty, but much more so during that time, it was one of the poorest cities in the nation and growing up in poverty. I mean, you see everybody around you in the same state, you don’t, you think everybody’s like that? I had no idea that I was living in poverty. I just thought everybody was like that.

Laura Rendón:
And growing up on the border, I mean, it’s, you’ve got Laredo, Texas, the Rio Grande and Noble Laredo. We grew up as one big happy city because there was a lot of crossing over it. You know, we would say [inaudible] and we wouldn’t go to the Medi-Cal or we would go to restaurants. We would go to nightclubs when we were in our twenties and, and we would, we all had a great time, you know, doing that. It was just one big happy family. But you know, it’s interesting because you grew up in this liminal space, what Gloria Anzaldúa I’ll do a call of nepantla where you’re Mexican, but you put your America and you speak English, you speak Spanish, you have the American experience, you have the Mexican experience. My mother was born in Mexico. And I’m about 35% indigenous as well, according to ancestry.com.

Laura Rendón:
So I embrace my indigenous identity as well. But you know, one of the things that it did for me is to be comfortable living in ambiguity and not always having to know what’s going to happen. And so there are people that are very, very structured, and I think we need that, you know, I’m not that type of person, and yet I get a lot of things done and I don’t need to have all the answers right away. I mean, I think that we need to remain open. And so I became very comfortable with ambiguity. And I believe that living in that, in between space of this liminal space, nepantla allows you to know that you’re feeling some distress and some tension, because you’re neither here nor there, ni aquí ni allá, but at the same time I’ve learned to appreciate that that is a space of possibility. That is a space of growth. That is the space where I believe our best ideas evolve. So I embrace that, middle space I embrace nepantla

Susana Muñoz:
Yes. That and that ambiguity. Yes. Yes. I think that’s, you know, because we, we navigate context is where we are always the first we’re always the only. A lot of times there’s definitely these questions of do I belong, right? Is this, is this a space that, and so I think what especially you talk about Gloria work. They think what, what Gloria Anzaldúa taught me is that that we do belong. And yet we probably, we need to sort of reclaim and reshift and make these spaces more conducive to our own humanity and our own liberation.

Laura Rendón:
Right. We belong and we’ve always belonged. It’s just that we were meant to feel that, you know, it didn’t belong in the higher education. That was very, very exclusive from the very, very beginning. I mean, you can look into the history of it that I won’t get into now, but it has been an exclusive elitist Academy. And as we started to move in there and, and slowly but surely grown in terms of numbers, I think things are changing now, but we’ve got a long, long ways to go. I’ve been recently very influenced myself with Gloria Anzaldúa’s work as you could see from my memoir, I call it, you know, a first-generation scholars, camino de conocimiento, my journey toward enlightenment. And of course conocimiento is a term that evolved from Gloria Anzaldúa’s work.

Laura Rendón:
I did visit her gravesite in Hargill, Texas. She grew up in poverty as well. And if you go to Hargill, I mean, it’s, you can barely see that little town Ranchito, in the Rio Grande Valley area. And you would think here’s this iconic figure known internationally how she could evolve from such a little place where people are raising pigs and chickens, and there’s so much poverty there. And so I make a point in my memoir, how no matter how poor you think the community is, there are lots of strengths there. There’s lots of brilliance there. There’s lots of intelligence there, and we should not give up on these communities, just wonderful people come out of these communities.

Susana Muñoz:
Absolutely. And I know in your memoir, you talk about your friends from Laredo like Norma Cantú and Amaury Nora actually wrote me an email and wanted to say, as you know, Laura and I have known each other since eighth grade. However, I believe our journey in higher education began when the two of us were instructors or counselors at Laredo junior college. I first saw the person and passion that Laura had for students and her desire to focus on all of our efforts in helping our chicano chicana students and chicano-x students. We have remained connected to each other through all these years, in spite of the fact that she took a qualitative route, and I took a quantitative route, este Amaury, in our, desire to join forces in trying to help students succeed. One interesting thing is while she began her research through a quantitative and through a quantitative dissertation, she has turned out to be quite the qualitative scholar. I’m not sure that yes. So, I think he said it’s been the beginning of a wonderful relationship that has lasted, lasted many, many, many years. So I wanted to share it

Laura Rendón:
Very, very dear friend. And that’s kind of unusual because yes, we did know each other in the eighth grade, although we didn’t, we weren’t really friends at that time, but we were in that same class. I met him as being this nerdy, privileged kid.

Susana Muñoz:
Oh, wow. That’s nice. Yeah. I always, it’s you talk about the brilliance that comes out of Laredo you know, you all are those examples, you know, Norma Cantú was another one that you both are you and her were receiving backwards around the same time, both from Laredo as well.

Laura Rendón:
Yeah. We finished our doctorates at the same time. We held a party, you know, we invited our families and you had carne asada and all that stuff. We had a band and it was it’s a beautiful memory. Yeah. We’ll do that to women in 1984 with no 1982 would have earned a doctorate, two women from Laredo earning a doctorate at the same time. Wow.

Susana Muñoz:
Yeah. And the contributions that you both of you have made to the Academy

Laura Rendón:
Phenomenal, phenomenal, brilliant scholar herself.

Susana Muñoz:
Yes. Thanks. So I know you’re always tied to validation theory, and so that’s one of the most popular questions that I get from students. And for other professionals is about your validation theory. And I wanted to see if you wanted to have this opportunity to say a little bit more about the origin story and validation theory.

Laura Rendón:
Sure. I developed validation theory in the nineties when I was at Arizona State University and I was working with a team of researchers. And we had a grant from the us department of education and the grant created the national center for teaching learning and assessment. It was headquartered at Penn State University. So I had the privilege of working with people like Jim Ratcliff, Pat Terenzini, Ernie Pascarella, Vincent Tinto and Amaury. He was a part of that team as well. And so we all had our own distinct research agendas. So Patt Terenzini and I, and my graduate student at the time. Romero Jalomo who’s now president at Hartnell college, I should say. We were looking, we were working with Sandy Astin Involvement Theory to look at how students succeeded that first semester of college.

Laura Rendón:
And so we interviewed students in two and four year institutions and Romero and I interviewed community college students. So while we will have involvement theory in mind, as we looked at the transcripts and we would have monthly meetings, I think it was to go over the transcripts. And while we were learning, it occurred to me that what the students were saying, when we asked them, what’s making a difference for you, why are you still in college while others have left? They didn’t say it was because I got involved in college. They didn’t say it was because I went to the library, or because I went to see a faculty member that in other words, they am taking the initiative. Rather, they were saying things that related to someone took an interest in them. The validation was coming from us as educators to them.

Laura Rendón:
When someone reached out and said, I believe in you, I’m here for you. I care about you. Let me help you with your writing. Let me meet with you in the cafeteria or you know, in a coffee shop. So we can go over your writing or some of the questions that you have. And so, you know, they talked with many examples of the time that they felt that I can do this. And it was related to the connection and the relationship that they had built with someone in or outside of college, because we need to remember that sometimes students don’t have validating agents, not all of us do. And so when they don’t, then it’s upon us to step in and overturn a lot of the invalidation that students sometimes get sometimes being told you’re not good enough, or getting that message that, you know, makes them doubt that maybe college is not for me.

Laura Rendón:
So we’ve got to turn that around. And part of turning that around, I think involves validating relationships. There’s a book out now it’s called Relationship Rich Education by Peter Felten and Leo Lambert. I just did a panel with Peter last week for achieving the dream and basically to talk about how relationships are the foundation for success for students. And that basically goes right in line with what I’ve been saying for many years now, since the nineties, the importance of validation, the importance of really having us take the initiative to reach out to students, to help them believe that they can do this after they feel that they’re ready to go. And you know, they’ll, they’re not gonna need as much validation later on, but at the beginning, underserved students will need that sort of support. So part of that thinking came from reading a book that had been released around the, in the nineties.

Laura Rendón:
It was called Women’s Ways of Knowing. And they talked about how women were not treated as well as men in the classroom. And their ways of knowing were often not really given credit or recognized or acknowledged. And I thought to myself, a lot of what they’re saying applies to students of color. And so I began to give all of that very deep thinking. And so anyways I that’s when I developed validation theory and it takes a while I’ve learned for theory to take off, but I can tell you that probably validation theory, and you helped me to expand it. Some more validation theory has never been more popular. And so over and over again, I mentioned validation to to faculty and staff when I give my presentations. And so it’s still alive and I think it’ll continue to live for a long, long time.

Susana Muñoz:
Yes. Yeah. I think this is why I continue to be asked about it is because I think it’s so, you know, folks are trying to still grapple with, okay, how do we institutionalize it? How do we make it part of our curriculum? And now, you know, one of your other important scholarly contributions that is in the, in our field is in a book titled, Sentipensante (Sensing/Thinking) Pedagogy, you know, that you publish with Stylus you discuss sort of the importance of contemplated teaching and learning practices. Given the times that we are in today, what new things would you add? What new inspirations would you add to that?

Laura Rendón:
I have been in the process on and off, because I’m so busy, even though I’m quote unquote retired of updating 70% of pedagogy. I think my publisher, John Norin who actually heard the seed of Sentipensante, they, when I hadn’t even called it Sentipensante trending way back in the early nineties. And he said, I want to publish your book. And I’m like, wait a minute. This is just an idea. I said, I don’t care. What about religion? So I thank him tremendously for believing in me. So updates. I believe again, the Gloria Anzaldúa I’ll do will be a part of this new version of, Sentipensante pedagogy, because I believe that the whole notion of conocimiento is inherent in deep learning, there’s this sort of us moving toward a higher form of enlightenment.

Laura Rendón:
And so rather than calling the practices, contemplative practices, contemplative tools I want to call them for example, estrategias de conocimiento, strategies and enlightenment. And so I also, I’m also thinking that it’s important to know that students will respond well to to a pedagogy that is connected to justice and equity. So I want to give that more emphasis. They, they, they connect more to a pedagogy that allows them to give back and to have an impact on their communities because they want, they want to know things. They want to definitely earn that degree or credential, but it’s not just to hanging on the wall. They want to, they want to use that knowledge to better their communities to better their families to make this place a better place to live. And and they also connect to a pedagogy that allows them to include their personal experiences, their personal stories.

Laura Rendón:
So storytelling becomes very important here as well. So I believe that right now, especially we need pedagogies that speak to contemporary times. People are suffering and very interested now, also in, in trauma and healing. And I’ve been doing some sessions on that as well. You know, Macy Nod is somebody that I really respect. She’s a scientist. She teaches at Pima Community College and she works with something called trauma informed pedagogy. And of course we have anti-racist pedagogy and and we’ve had culturally responsive pedagogy. So all of these pedagogies I think are really, really, really important. And I believe that these are the kinds of pedagogies that are important especially during these times of, of the pandemic and people hurting and suffering and, and wanting to heal and wanting to better their lives. So at any rate, those are some that, some of the thinking that I have with regard to the future of Sentipensante pedagogy, and again, this came out in 2009. It has never been more popular. I give talks today on two major things, validation, and Sentipensante, and now I’m adding trauma and healing. But those, those are the top two.

Susana Muñoz:
Nice, nice. No, that’s great to hear that, you know your work is so in demand, one of the things that you mentioned is sort of, you know, trauma informed practices and the healing, and, you know, as a result of the pandemic, I think switching to sort of academic leaders you know, what advice would you give you have for us in the academic positions and academic leadership positions to ensure that we don’t go back to quote unquote normal after the pandemic? I don’t think, I don’t think any of us want to go back to where we were. And so those of us that are in academic leadership positions or in leadership positions, how do we reconcile with that?

Laura Rendón:
I agree. I think many people don’t want to go back to where we were, at least I hope not. We’re between we’re in a liminal space right now. We’re in nepantla where we had gotten one foot in the old world, as we knew it in the Academy and another foot on the new world that is emerging in the Academy. So this is a time of transformation. This is a time to learn lessons of 2020, what did we not get? Right? What do we need to do better? What do we need to change? If we don’t take time to reflect on that, then we’re going to revert to what we used to do, and really nothing has changed. We haven’t really grown. And that would be I think, a great shame. I think we need to take the best of what we did in the past, and then begin to really do something different in the future, learn the lessons, learn what needs to change and move forward. I think we need to be bold. I need to, I think we need to really see leaders, bring faculty and staff together and say, what is going to be our post pandemic vision of education. What’s this going to look like now on our campus, what are we going to keep? Where do we going to change? Where are we going to discard? How do we move forward so that we have a better Academy? So, you know, that’s my thinking along those lines.

Susana Muñoz:
Yeah, no, I liked that a lot. And so over the years what has sustained you while working in higher education? If you can think back to the most challenging time in your career what support or mechanisms were most useful for you?

Laura Rendón:
It was most useful for me had to do with my friends and my colleagues, people that I could turn to when I was struggling. And we all struggle in the Academy. We have all had our big challenges and it’s always helpful when we have a group of people that we can just sit down and, you know, I just want to sort this through. And so that has really helped me a great deal. I believe also my experience as a fellow of the Fetzer Institute in the early two thousands and being in meetings where we were in community with people that were struggling with issues of wholeness, authenticity, and spirituality also changed my life. We had a facilitator that guided our discussions of some of the most challenging questions. So our lives, her name was Angeles Arrien author of the Fourfold Way she’s then passed away, but the memory of that experience and, and just being with people and we weren’t, they weren’t all educators, they were from different their fields, for example, there was a producer from MPR.

Laura Rendón:
There was a physician from the Harvard Medical school. There was a pastor and a couple of us were in education, but, but most were not. And to know that everyone was struggling with some of the same things, how do we, how do we change these organizations that’s have some toxicity in them so that they’re more responsive to societal issues and to our humanity, and how do we become better people as a result of that? So I think that experience was very, very helpful to me. It’s helped me to grow. It’s helped me gain wisdom. It’s helped me to be in a space where I’m much more comfortable with myself. And I was in the nineties when I used to tell people that I wanted to be a better person.

Susana Muñoz:
Nice. Thanks for sharing that. And so what, what are your hopes and dreams for the next generation of education leaders?

Laura Rendón:
First of all, I’m happier here. I love you. Secondly, take what we did to the next level, take it to a higher level. Okay. What we did was one of the starting points for all of you take validation to the next level. It takes sentipensante take everything, everything has been done, and just keep pushing the knowledge, keep pushing so that you yourselves grow and you yourselves are doing work that makes the Academy a receptive space for all. And so that all can grow remain authentic. And, and know that as we critique, as we raise our voices, which I think certainly we should. But also remember that I believe that our ancestors wanted us to be healers as well to be bridge builders to me to be community builders. So it’s, it’s not all about being angry. Although I respect that. I think that certainly we have to be angry at many things that are happening, but I think we also need to heal and to grow and to build bridges. And so, you know, finding that sort of balance I think is going to be important as well. I think also, I mean, I, many of you are working on addressing systemic inequities that confront our society, that seep into higher education. And I think that all of that is very, very important work that will continue for many years to come

Susana Muñoz:
Nice. Yes. Thank you for that. And and know that you’ve been such a great force in my life and so many others. And when I think about you, you provide so much healing. And I think that as an example, I know every time we are face to face, I always end up crying when I talk to you, because it’s always such a good relief. I feel like I can release, and I let my heart heal. And so you have that power and you have that that presence when we’re together. So thank you for that.

Laura Rendón:
It brings to mind that it’s important to work with our minds and with our hearts. So often we get to work with our heart, with our humanity. And I think when we do that, people respond very, very well to that because so much of our emotions and our feelings and in our humanity are suppressed. And everything is about work, work, work, and I’m not against work. I’m certainly, I think one of the hardest working people in terms of, you know, everything I’ve done and what I’m doing, but, but I also believe that we need to work with our hearts and to know that what we do is is not just to publish, although that’s important, but it’s about making the world a better place for everyone.

Susana Muñoz:
Yeah, no, I appreciate that. Thank you. I’m so grateful for you and for your time, I love you. Thank you for the generosity today and sharing all our earlier wisdom with our listeners on Student AffairsNow listeners, you can receive reminders about this and other episodes by subscribing to Student Affairs Now the newsletter or browser our archives at studentaffairsnow.com thank you again to our sponsors today, Stylus Publishing and LeaderShape, please subscribe to the podcast, invite others to subscribe, share on social media or leave a five star review. It really helps the conversation like this reach more folks and build the community so we can continue to make this free to you. Again, my name is Susana Muñoz. Thanks for a fabulous, fabulous conversation with Dra. Laura Rendon today. And to everyone who’s watching the watching and listening, make it a great week. Muchas Gracias.