Paul Shang
I have to say that I am kind of concerned about diversity. I think that we’re much more diverse on our campuses than we once were. But I am concerned about access and the cost of coming to a college or university and having that experience. And I’m also talking about the experience, I’m wondering, you know, what that experience is actually like, I went to college, and what I considered as I consider it now, a really nurturing kind of experience. And, and and, you know, one where, where I felt like I was supported, regardless of who I was, and what I believed. And I felt like I was a member of a community and people supported me. They may not have agreed with me on everything, but nonetheless, I felt supported. Do we have that anymore?

Heather Shea
Hello, and welcome to Student Affairs NOW, I’m your host, Heather Shea. Today is truly a special treat for me. As I get to interview one of my student affairs, mentors and heroes, Dr. Paul Shang. We’re going to dig into his long career, his leadership of ACPA and all the lessons that he has learned working in student affairs. Student Affairs NOW is the premier podcast and learning community for 1000s of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We hope you’ll find these conversations make a contribution to the field and our restorative to the profession. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays, and you can find us at studentaffairsnow.com Today’s episode is sponsored by Symplicity. A true partner Symplicity supports all aspects of student life with technology platforms that empower institutions to make data driven decisions. This episode is also brought to you by Stylus, visit stylus pub, and use a promo code SANow for 30% off and free shipping. Stay tuned to the end of the podcast for more information about each sponsor. As I mentioned, I am your host for today’s episode Heather Shea, my pronouns are she her and hers and I am broadcasting from the ancestral traditional and contemporary lands of Denisha, Nabi three fires confederacy of Ojibwe, Ottawa, and Potawatomi peoples otherwise known as East Lansing, Michigan, home to Michigan State University where I work. The university resides on land seeded in the 1819 Treaty of Saginaw. So, let’s get on to this conversation. I am so excited to have Paul, with us today on Student Affairs NOW. Welcome, Paul.

Paul Shang
Hello, hello, thank you Heather so much for inviting me.

Heather Shea
I’m so glad to spend some time with you. Paul, you and I have known each other for almost 25 years, maybe at right at 25 years. I know, you know, but I’ll tell our audience that you have played such an instrumental role in my career, encouraging me from a very early age to pursue a PhD to consider running for ACPA president. And so I’m just really grateful for an opportunity to say thank you today, but also to just highlight all of the things you’ve done beyond inspire Heather Shea in this field, so thank you for spending a little bit of time. We’re going to start actually by you telling us a little bit about what you’ve done over over your career, you have served in various roles across many campuses in all corners of the United States. You have also, as I mentioned, been ACPA president and I’d love to hear a little bit about just how you got to those roles, and then we’ll talk a bit about how you’ve seen Student Affairs work evolve over time. You are a true legend. So I’ll let you kick us off.

Paul Shang
Well, thank you for being so gracious Heather. And for always being such a wonderful colleague and delightful person to work with. I actually came to Student Affairs in a kind of a circuitous route, if you will. I was a PhD student at Florida State University and, and began as a freshman there in 1969, and graduated in 78. With my PhD, now, I had a double majors and undergraduate in political science and philosophy because I love both those fields. And you have to remember what the times were like than it was the Vietnam War. I think there there, there was great deal of student activism. Florida State was a very nurturing and wonderful experience, especially for me, because I grew up as basically in in rural Florida and the middle of the state. And so going off to a university was just a wonderful, wonderful, life changing, expansive experience that I would wish upon everybody. But anyway, because of my background, and philosophy, I really enjoy thinking about things kind of in a larger way, and maybe a more historical way. Political Sciences had always encouraged me to think about the way people interacted with one another, and, you know, made decisions together. So I received a letter as I was finishing my dissertation, from the American Philosophical Association is sort of miraculous, but it was one of those mimeograph letters, you could still pick it up and smell it. And, you know, I don’t know that anybody knows mimeograph technology anymore. But yes, and, and the American Philosophical Association could keep track of all of us graduate students across the country was miraculous. But anyway, the letter said, it was gracious, but it basically said, We want you to finish your PhD, but there are no jobs. And so and there weren’t, it was the emergence of, of, you know, the more professional kind of oriented academic programs, and the decline at the beginning of the decline of the liberal arts, if you will. And so, I had this as the only advantage of having taken all of your degrees, and I have four of them from Florida State. And they, they knew who I was, they, they, they took care of me as as an undergraduate student, when I was asked to go ahead and start protesting one thing or another, I actually did have faculty, as I was crossing the campus reached out to me and say, you know, if you get in trouble, give me a call, and we didn’t have email back, then we just gave. You know, we gave each other our phone numbers. And of course, invariably, I did get in trouble because it was the 60s and you had to go out and do important things. And it was that kind of an environment. So I was approached by people in Student Affairs, who said that they really didn’t care for my values that much. But they liked the way that I led my peers and tried to keep them out of trouble, and tried to minimize damage to the university. And if I get my hair cut, they give me a job. So that’s, that’s how it all started. And it was in the very first Minority Affairs Office in the south, and definitely in Florida, and it was called actually Office of Minority Affairs, which was kind of a, an interesting name back then, but it’s totally acceptable. And now of course, we would change it and try to make it not quite that pejorative, now. But it was it was my introduction to working with students on a one to one kind of level. And also, I learned about financial aid, I learned about admissions, I learned about all the different things that student affairs people learn about, you know, in, in masters and their EDD or PhD programs. And I learned through experience, and, and I learned that working with people of color, specifically African American students or black students. And I stayed that was my tradition, actually, that I and that’s I went from Florida State to Iowa, where I met Ursula Dilworth as significant member in our profession was a significant, very prominent member of our profession, and also my current spouse, Laura, McCargo, Sean, and they took me to an ACP convention. I had been part of all of those TRIO programs and the tree oak oriented kinds of of professional groups. And this is the first time and this was in Chicago. ago ironically. And it was the joint ACPA national convention many years ago. And they took me there. And it was such a mind expanding experience for me in the sense of beginning to understand the Yeah, there was a lot of us in student affairs and we all did different things. But there were things that brought us together. And ultimately, it was our experience with students, that that made these activities and these conventions and these ways of thinking. So very, very important. So I hope that was brief enough. And I hope that that was, you know, interesting in some degree, but yes, that’s how I got into Student Affairs.

Heather Shea
That is that’s a great story. So after Iowa, when did you end up at Colorado State, which is where our paths crossed,

Paul Shang
I was basically what I will for about seven years, okay. And I, I was encouraged to start thinking about doing some other kinds of work within student affairs. And I met through Ursa I met Donna McKinley Oh want to for Student Affairs VP, or Associate VP at that time, and she wanted to create an Academic Advising Center on campus. And the Academic Advising Center also was going to be very significant in terms of doing student orientation. So I applied and luckily, was able to get the job and stayed at Colorado State for 15 years, and totally, totally enjoyed it. I had a wonderful experience there, I met you and other delightful students through our Student Affairs in Higher Education master’s degree program. And that was very important for me and my professional and personal development, in the sense that I continue to get to interact with students on a one to one kind of scale, as well as as have more important, you know, administrative sort of responsibilities. Go ahead.

Heather Shea
No, I was just I was just gonna say, I think one of the really unique things about Colorado State SAHE program is the fact that you have folks who are full time administrators and directors of units and departments, who are mentoring, advising, and even teaching in the program. And that I think that if anything affected me more, it was the ability to learn from people who are doing this work as part of their practice. How did you get into teaching? Or how did you how did that end up happening? How did you end up becoming an advisor and connecting with master students?

Paul Shang
Well, all right, I wanted to have that experience. And I volunteered with the student parents in higher education program. And because of my background, I was also paired with somebody and to teach student development theory. And and I think I taught with an for an Hudgens for several years that took recourse and really enjoyed it. But it was the the ability to work with students at the masters level. And to talk with them about about what they might be doing, you know, as they continued in the profession, was really very important experience for me. And hopefully, the students benefited from that to a certain extent. But it was it was just such a marvelous experience to be able to work with people who are very talented, saw things particularly and possibly in different ways. I grew a lot from that experience. But I also wanted to make sure that people understood you know, the significance of advanced education and on the masters and also the PhD level, because it is just a fabulous experience and I enjoyed it greatly and I wanted my students people I advise to understand that you go on and and there are other things that you can do beyond the master’s degree.

Heather Shea
Well, I remember sitting in your office and thinking about I don’t remember all the different opportunities that you could you could do is you could write a professional paper, you could write a thesis or you could write do something else but I remember you encouraging me to do research, right and then that that was going to be an opportunity for me to kind of learn a little bit about what that scholarly pursuit was like, and so I did endeavor and ended up doing a qualitative study of multiracial students. And I remember sitting in your office and having lots of really heady conversations about what is race and how are we defining race? And then what does it mean to be a white person studying multiracial reality? You know, how is that going to influence like my logger career? And, and then I remember you saying to me, at some point, well, what else has been written about this? And I think we dug into the card catalog at that point in time, I don’t even know if there was there were some electronic files, maybe but Kristin Wren, there was one published higher ed focused paper on multiracial college students. And it was by Kristin Wren, who fast forward for those of you who don’t know me, was my dissertation chair here at Michigan State. And, and later, you and I met Chris, and we’re like, oh, my gosh, you know, she was, you know, one of those people, I think, who had who had an absolutely. I love that. Yeah. So I did talk to another one of your advisees, because I was really curious about how other people experienced you. My good friend, Jennifer Hamilton, graduated in 97, from the SAHE program. So she’s even, I think a little bit before me. And she said, that she said, As I reflect on Paul’s an advisor, I just recall his genuine interest in students and his supportive cheerleader role. And then even years after I graduated, must have had buckets of those interactions with tons of folks. And yet he showed genuine interest in me as a professional. And that kind of encouragement and support has been so valuable. So Jen wanted to know, where does that energy come from? And how do you go about cultivating such a genuine care and interest in students and in others?

Paul Shang
Well, that it’s very nice of Jennifer to, you know, to have responded the way that she did. You know, you get this kind of once in a lifetime opportunity to meet people, and, and to appreciate them and to learn about them. And to get some sense of, of, of their potential. And that’s, that’s, in many respects, for me what higher education is all about, I think, I think things have changed and a little bit in that maybe we don’t have the same time or opportunities anymore, to interact that closely with students, but that that was something that I really enjoyed. And, and it’s an energizing kind of experience. You know, there, there are lots of things that you do with groups and groups of students and large lectures and, and demonstrations and so forth. But but the one to one interactions, where you genuinely get to know somebody, and to understand what they’re going to be like one day is, or get a glimpse into that is so important, and so energizing, and what I really enjoyed about my interactions with students, especially at Colorado State, you know, in the SAHE program,

Heather Shea
can you can you talk a little bit more just about how you seen Student Affairs work, evolve over time, and maybe a little bit about how you evolved as a as a student affairs educator over time?

Paul Shang
Well, I think that, and this is this is maybe possibly the downside of of getting more professional responsibilities, is that that frequently kind of ends up taking you further away from, you know, individual students, and you start thinking about students in group ways. And, and sometimes that’s a positive thing, and sometimes that’s not. And I think that things have changed really dramatically. At least, for me, as I became a Dean of Students, in the sense that I there wasn’t the same one on one interaction unless it was under very special circumstances. And and many of those are very positive and sometimes they’re not so positive. But I think what has happened is is that over time, and possibly because of technology, And possibly because of the way that, you know, our society and also our universities have changed and, and the challenges that we’re all confronted with now, it’s become, for me anyway, it became less personal, in the sense of less interaction with individuals, and, and less of an ability to actually kind of care about them. When you when you think about people, in terms of groups, you know, it, it just blurs everything, at least at least that was my experience. And so, so designing things and thinking about changes that you might make on behalf of groups or, or recommend to be implemented to a group of people is just not the same. If you don’t have those individual experiences that help you think through and and what is this going to actually be like, for the for the person that is the participant? And so there are lots of of interesting discussions and debates that went on in my time, for instance, the whole concern about fraternities and sororities, and the relationship of fraternities and sororities and, and, and different things like alcohol and other substance abuse, like sexual assault, and VL instances, perhaps, of racism. All of that was was something that, you know, those were important considerations, and but ultimately, you know, what I would do is, is go ahead and try to have dinners with fraternities and sororities and, and beat them, and talk to them about the significance that they play, the roles that they play, and also understand why they belong to those groups. You know, and it’s just an, it’s another way of being a student, it’s another at least then for me, that’s what I learned. And it’s another way to have a group. And so it was sort of an important, important way to get some experience and to understand those particular organized organizations into to realize that well, you know, this is a this is an experience, and quite possibly an important experience for the development of those individual students. And we need to be even handed about this.

Heather Shea
Yeah. Yeah, I think it’s it’s little pockets of belonging. But there’s, it seems like there’s sometimes like a lot of intergroup conflict among fraternity and sorority chapter at least, for me, at least, I’m always telling trawling this sorority for my current vantage point, I’m like, together, you are the largest women’s organization on campus, like you could really move the needle around some gender equity issues. And so helping students kind of see their power to I think, is something that’s that’s challenging.

Paul Shang
Right? I have a really source in my day anyway. Most of the student leaders on campus, right. And elsewhere. I like that term, little pockets of belonging.

Heather Shea
Or big pocket depends on the size of campus. Right.

Paul Shang
Exactly. Exactly.

Heather Shea
Yeah. I am with the kids. So you mentioned in your, in your intro that you have this PhD in philosophy from Florida State. And that’s, that’s a less traditional preparation program. Right? You’re unique in that, in that background? Can you talk about, like how that’s shaped your view of Student Affairs work? And maybe what, you know, in what ways do you draw upon that body of knowledge through your career?

Paul Shang
Well, I, I think it introduced me to a discipline, we’re in the sense of, of trying to think and look at things, you know, more thoughtfully. And possibly, you know, you may have noticed, in your experience with me, it may take me a while to to actually tell you what I think, you know, and that’s possibly because I’ve just kind of not real clear about what I’m thinking until I’ve been able to sit down and really work it through in my mind. And that that’s, I think it’s a plus and a minus. These days, we’re asked to respond pretty quickly to things and, and I don’t know that that we get the opportunity to really be as thoughtful about them as we would like. But philosophy kind of gave me that patience and that desire to go ahead and let’s let’s think this thing through and try to understand it from from a multitude of different perspectives. Philosophers never win arguments. They always just try to, you know, raise the consciousness about our topic just a little bit. The other thing, though, is it really automatically kind of gave me an appreciation for student development theory. The importance of of looking at the student experience, and describing it and writing about it, and and sharing it with others and trying to understand, you know, what it is about universities and higher education, and how can students be served better? And, you know, how, how is it that they benefit from these experiences? And so that that was something that I appreciated about my background, even though it took me a lot of catching up to try to become more familiar with the literature.

Heather Shea
Yeah. Well, I think we could all use, you know, because it’s sometimes like, why am I doing this work? Like those big why questions? I think, philosophy might have some answers for us, or more questions, right. Like one of the things that I value, it’s like thinking about things is important. Right. So, you know, you you ended up serving as ACPA president, I think I read 2002 to 2003. Is that the correct year? I think so. Okay, so that’s exactly 20 years ago. And as you know, I’m moving into that role at this next year. So I’d love to hear a little bit about what it was like to lead the association 20 years ago, and then any advice you have for me, to begin to this role?

Paul Shang
Wow. Well, you know, it was an entirely different time, 20 years ago, and the association was organized in somewhat different ways. And I am so looking forward to your convention, and I’m going to be there. And Jennifer Hamilton out there in the world, I want you to know that I’m looking forward to meeting you there. And we’ll get together and talk and maybe have lunch or something together and just commiserate and also celebrate all that we’ve been through. But it I guess my advice, let me skip that part first, before I describe, you know, the background a little bit, is I think it’s really important to be a good listener. And to, but also to share a lot about yourself. I think that people in ACPA, especially the newer members want to know, you know, what their leaders are like and, and how it is people who become presidents of ACPA, what they did to get there. And I think that you’ve been very prominent in the profession in many, many different ways. So I think maybe you might not necessarily have to do the same kind of things that some of us did, because, you know, we we were probably a lot more limited in our our presence

Heather Shea
now has definitely helped.

Paul Shang
I’m sure it has, I’m sure it has. So that that would be probably the sole piece of advice, because I you know, when I was president, it was very clear that we needed to make sure that the organization was on a firm financial and administrative basis. We had just not that long ago. separate it from a larger organization. And we wanted to make sure that we continue to be the largest student affairs professional association at that time in the country, and also one that continue to focus on those things that our association felt was important. And that was diversity and being accessible to newer members of the profession, to be a good place for for newer members of the profession, to also expand the notion of what it meant to be in student affairs and reach out to our colleagues and community colleges and elsewhere and maintain a stable and strong relationship with faculty. So that we saw ourselves as a big community celebrating our profession, and the at that time, the Minnesota Student Affairs Association, the regional associations very, very strong. So it was great having my convention there. And they largely were the planners of the convention. Nowadays, I think it’s a little different, I think it’s much more inclusive, and that people can volunteer to be on the planning committees. And so they come from everywhere. And I think that that’s a very obviously, it’s been a very, very positive approach. And, and one that’s been successful, because I’ve heard these meetings are great. But what we were able to do was, was to go ahead and build on a group of people that were already there. And so we limited travel expenses, and, and those kinds of things by doing that. So yeah, but I the other piece of experience, our suggestion I have for you is to enjoy it. I mean, you hear people talk about being in these very significant roles, and just saying, I’m so glad it’s over, you know, it was it was such a drain on my time, blah, blah. But the fact of the matter is, is that I loved it. And I know that you will, too, because it’s such an opportunity to give back in many respects.

Heather Shea
Yeah. Yeah, the association that has given me so much. I’m really humbled and grateful for the opportunity. And I really think that we’re at this really interesting point in our history right the convention in Chicago will be the 100th anniversary of ACPA, which is an exciting milestone. And so yeah, I have, I have no doubt I’m going to, I’m going to really enjoy it. And I have a lot of respect for all of the people who have served in the in the president role over time, because it in this year, as Vice President, I’ve gotten a bit of a of an insight into the amount of work that it entails. But I’m, I’m very excited, it’s gonna be great.

Paul Shang
Well, it’s three years of

Heather Shea
it truly, effort. So. So I’m curious through that time period, I mean, I know for me, at least ACPA has kind of been this professional, you know, through line, as I’ve moved around the country, and as I’ve taken different roles and different institutions. And my colleagues and communities of support have really been largely centered on that, on that professional association. But can you talk a little bit about who your communities of support, you know, who were your mentors? And how have you kind of maintained relationships over time with them?

Paul Shang
Well, I was, I was very privileged to have had quite a few mentors, actually. And, of course, the one group that other than ACPA, which has been very significant for me is a group called Valhalla, which is a group of past ACPA presidents, and also people who published and contributed significantly to the profession. And we used to before COVID Have these wonderful meetings, that would last a long weekend, and get away and be able to talk. But, you know, I like that little pockets of belonging and I’m going to try to incorporate that at ACPA, a fortunate opportunity to do a lot of that you meet people and and you make arrangements to be able to put them into groups, either at the convention or elsewhere. I always encourage people and thought it was very important to have folks not at your own campus that you can talk to. ACP was a wonderful place for that. There your local professional association, would be a good place for probably, and just, you know, a group of peers that that are committed and that you have good relationships with just getting together and, and, you know, sharing everything there is to share about your experience, you know, that student affairs has got its really positive aspects. And then there are really challenging aspects to and you’ve got to be able to get all of that out there with somebody, you know, people that you trust, and and are not going to violate any confidences or anything like that. And you, I think it’s very hard to do it on your own campus. So, so create these peer groups, wherever you are, and and be able to have an outlet, because as I’ve said, I think I’ve said repeatedly there, there are really good things about the profession and the experience, and then there are some that are not so good. And, you know, I have to say that, my hat’s off to you, Heather for and also like my other colleagues at Michigan State for how you dealt with and continue to deal with, you know, what has happened on your campus, and for all the other people out there on campuses, and in high schools and elementary schools and all the places where these tragedies have been occurring. You know, I just, I can’t tell you how much I’m feeling for you. And sharing, trying to share your grief.

Heather Shea
Thank you. Yeah. Paul, you are one of the people who texted me that night, you know, are watching the news, are you okay? And I mentioned on a previous episode of the podcast, like how valuable those those outreaches are, right? I mean, it shows that we have a very large, interconnected and caring community of of educators across the country. And, though I really appreciate that, and I think I texted you, I’m, I’m headed to campus, you’re like, good job. Keep going. Yeah. Yeah,

Heather Shea
yeah, well, and that’s the thing. I mean, it’s been a couple of weeks, but it’s still pretty present. And even though news media has gone on, and the stories aren’t right, but like our campuses still kind of, in the midst of what does it mean, to have a tragedy like this? So. So I know, your last professional role was as the Dean of Students at the University of Oregon before you retired? How many years ago? Did you retire? It feels like yesterday.

Paul Shang
but oh, it was it was quite a few years ago. I think it was like 2015. So

Heather Shea
yeah, okay. Okay.

Paul Shang
Maybe a little later than that. I, you know, time flies.

Heather Shea
Nice. Yes. I know. Well, and I think you and I have talked a little bit about I mean, I’ve always thought of the Dean of Students position as kind of the quintessential Student Affairs role, right? Like our, our field, Student Affairs, was founded through kind of the Dean’s of women and Dean’s of men and the places where students came for support. Right. And so I always thought, like, the dean of students is like my career aspiration. You know, and then I remember talking with you about this, right. And the role has really evolved and become more complicated. And I’d love to hear any kind of particular observations you want to want to share about that. After after be retired?

Paul Shang
Oh, well, you know, I think you’d be a wonderful dean of students. And I think, actually, I think you’d be a wonderful Vice President for Student Affairs and a wonderful president of a university. Thank you. Thank you. All. Right. Yeah. But no, I think I think you have all the skills and I think the personality. And I think that the student affairs, professionals need to think about these leadership responsibilities and new roles and, and bringing new perspectives to their campuses. I think it’s, the role has changed significantly, but I also think that it’s an important role it to me, it’s the bridge, it’s the one that we’re, you know, people are able to kind of perhaps see different perspectives is through the Dean of Students. That’s the positive aspect. That’s also the biggest challenge, especially in times like this, where it seems as if people are much more divisive and and perhaps much less able to listen to one another than perhaps they once were. Maybe contentious is a better word. I don’t know. But I as I talk with my friends, and as I read the literature is coming out. You know, it seems that the mood on campus and The environment on campus is becoming more and more reflective of, of our society in general, which I think is a huge challenge. So, that’s, that’s what I would like to encourage people to think about it, as they undertake these additional responsibilities is, you know, how are you going to cope with that? Maybe more contentiousness less willingness to learn from one another, you know, and how are you going to be able to maintain your own values, your own perspectives? How much personal work do you have to do before you achieve these kinds of responsibilities, your own identity, where, where the lines are, that you’re just not going to cross? You know, and, and also, how you’re going to interact, I think with, with more diverse perspectives, that probably are less willing than they have been before to learn with one another. I, I practiced, with millennials for the most part. And if you read and what they are two generations of college students ago, now, that that was a group, that was a much more optimistic group of people, and perhaps, as students, they, they had more confidence about the impact that they were going to make on the world and, and, of course, you know, um, themselves. So it’s, that’s the kind of thing that I think is going to be very important for people to to be thoughtful about is how you’re going to interact and, and what I perceive, and maybe it’s not true, and I’m hoping it’s not, but it appears to be a more contentious environment. And having said that, let me go ahead and say that I would encourage people who are entering into the profession, and entering into significant leadership responsibilities at different institutions to understand how those institutions are managed, understand the how decisions are made, and really, really understand unions, and tenure, and what kind of things I wouldn’t have said this years ago when I was entering the profession, but now I would really not be obsessed by the idea, but I would I would understand, you know, how am I going to be able to be as effective as I can be? Because student affairs professional, I think, has the obligation to, to be an educator, and and to say, to everybody, you know, this is what’s the better thing for students and their students who’d probably object to your perspectives, and they’re probably others on your campus who might object to those perspectives. But I think that’s the role that the student affairs, especially a dean of students, you know, has to be able to articulate to successfully demonstrate, is the ability to say, Well, ultimately, what’s best for the students, I think might be this as opposed to what we’re talking about now.

Heather Shea
Right, right. Yeah. And it’s been I mean, I think that I think you’re really hitting it that like there is a lot of contentiousness among groups and a lot of polarization among the, you know, various factions. And so, you know, how can administrators kind of serve in a restorative way to build bridges and I like that, that the that the Dean of Students role kind of has some of that and their responsibility? So you’ve been retired since 2015? What have you been doing in your retirement? I know you were doing CrossFit for a little bit before, before COVID or some other kind of gym based fitness thing, but I understand you just traveled to Mexico. Tell us a little bit about what you’ve been up to.

Paul Shang
Well, that’s basically what I’ve been up to. I haven’t been when I worked, you know, I I wasn’t able to To do all the exercise that I probably should have done, I always tried to do a little something. But I think that now that I’ve been able to do it much more seriously and much more consistently, I would encourage people who are working to have an exercise regimen, that if they’re faithful with because it’s, it’s, it’s really important, it contributes a lot to your perspective on the world. You know, I, it’s interesting when people retire, they oftentimes, folks think that they’re just going to have so much time on their hands. Well, that just hasn’t been our experience to be perfectly honest, we, we’ve traveled, and we’ve certainly done more things in terms of our immediate community, off campus, and very involved in Rotary, and, you know, we, we do other kinds of, of voluntary work to try to improve our communities or to assist people that are in our communities. So it’s been, I’ve had fun, it’s an it’s, I like to travel. And also I did go we I’ve been to Mexico twice now I think. And we, through Rotary, we work with an organization called Project amigo. And their function is to educate people who wouldn’t ordinarily be impoverished, possibly, or live in migrant camps. These are people who do the agricultural work within Mexico itself, they move back and forth from different areas, and oftentimes, their their children aren’t able to go to school. And so project Tomiko, has come up with this, this way of educating students in this one area. And through the really different kinds of experiences they’ve created for folks like Laura Mae and other Rotarians and other people who just want to volunteer, they’ve been able to create a viable, nonprofit organization that has seen students through from preschool all the way through the university and into law school and architectural school and beyond. And it’s it’s been the last activity that we were involved in was teaching English, or enhancing English speaking skills to university students. And these were already students who are pretty good. But it was very intense and very enjoyable. But it, it’s continued to be that was a way to contribute and to be part of something that had a large or significant impact on those communities. Because if people are able to continue their education, and they are able to find jobs and work in Mexico, you know, why would they think about leaving. And that’s, that’s the kind of impact that project amigo has had, and an important one, and it’s been one that’s very beneficial to everybody who’s involved in it.

Heather Shea
That’s great. That is great. I can just see you and Laura, just really taking all of that to heart and in, you know, increasing your impact right beyond just the community that you’re in, but really thinking about it, internationally. I we’re getting close to the end of our time together. But I’d love to hear in your final thoughts. Just any advice that you have for new professionals. And, you know, maybe a little bit about what you would have wanted to tell yourself, you know, as as like a having a long career in student affairs. And then we’ll get to our our traditional final question, which is always about what we’re pondering, but what advice would you give to a new professional?

Paul Shang
I guess the advice that I would give is probably something that it’s kind of obvious. But on the other hand, I just, I really mean this sincerely in the sense that, you know, you’re, you’re going to have an experience that’s your experience and you have to be true to yourself. But also you have to give yourself the opportunity to learn and grow from it. It’s a wonderful experience. And you meet wonderful peers along the way. And, but always, you have to understand that this is it, this is this is your experience, and you need to be genuine and honest about it. And especially as it relates to you personally, and individually, and your family too. Because all it’s one of those things that, that happens, not just to you, but to a group of people together. So I’d be thoughtful about that. And I would really try to enjoy it for all it is, at the same time being real honest with yourself, about how it’s impacting you, and, and how you’re serving your students in your career and your college, your community, your campus.

Heather Shea
So, our, our podcasts, and you know, it’s called Student Affairs NOW. So I’d love to hear if there are things that this conversation has brought up that you’re pondering or questioning or excited about, or things that you’re just generally thinking about in the world that you want to share just whatever final thoughts you want to want to add.

Paul Shang
Well, you know, I I came in student affairs, I came into higher education, period with with the whole idealistic notion, which I’m, I’m sticking to that, as Dewey has argued, and Jefferson has argued, and many other philosophers and educators have argued it, education is kind of the basis of democracy. It’s a building block its foundation, you have to have an educated electorate, especially these days when when the questions are so complicated. So I remain committed to that idea. But at the same time, you know, I, I have to say that I am kind of concerned about diversity. I think that we’re much more diverse on our campuses than we once were. But I am concerned about access and the cost of coming to a college or university and having that experience. And I’m also talking about the experience, I’m wondering, you know, what that experience is actually like, I went to college, and what I considered as I consider it now, a really nurturing kind of experience. And, and and, you know, one where, where I felt like I was supported, regardless of who I was, and what I believed. And I felt like I was a member of a community and people supported me. They may not have agreed with me on everything, but nonetheless, I felt supported. Do we have that anymore? Is that same sort of experience? And can we have that again, at places like Florida State, Michigan State, Oregon, and Colorado State and, you know, big, big schools, larger schools, you know, can we have those sorts of important nurturing experiences, like I was really fortunate to enjoy.

Heather Shea
I think that’s a great note to leave, leave us on. And I absolutely agree with you. And I think our society needs education even more now. And we’ve always needed it. But I think that we do have this imperative. I’m excited to put this episode out into the world. And for those folks who have not met Paul, before, have a little bit of an opportunity to spend some time with you and learn from you, Paul, as I as I have done over several now a couple of decades.

Paul Shang
Thank you. Sounds wonderful. A wonderful. Thank you.

Heather Shea
Yeah, well, I’m so grateful for your time, serving, you know, not only as my mentor but also just being able to be vulnerable and willing to share your journey with us here today. So closing we typically then talk a bit about our sponsor. So let me tell you a little bit about that. We have two sponsors. Today. Symplicity is the global leader in student services technology platforms with state of the art technology that empowers institutions to make data driven decisions specific to their goals. A true partner to the institution Symplicity supports all aspects of student life, including but not limited to Career Services and Development, Student Conduct and well being, student success and accessibility services. And you can learn more by visiting symplicity.com. And our second sponsor is Stylus. Stylus is proud to be a sponsor for Student Affairs NOW browse their student affairs, diversity and professional development titles at stylus pub.com. And you can use promo code SANow for 30% off all books plus free shipping. And if you visit our website, you can learn more about our sponsors by clicking there. Thanks to Nat Ambrosey, our dedicated behind the scenes producer who does all of the great work to make us look and sound good. And if you’re listening today and not already receiving our weekly newsletter, please visit our website and add your email address. We send out a weekly newsletter and you can also check out our archives. Thanks to everybody for listening and watching today. Again, my name is Heather Shea and I hope you make it a great week.

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