Amanda R. Tachine

Everybody comes into stories, in their own time and their own place with their own need, I don’t know who’s listening to this, what you are trying to gain or where you need you, what you have planted in your heart of what you want to do, let’s say for Native students on your campus. Because I don’t know, I don’t know what it is everyone’s different. And the context is different. But when you read this book, I hope that there’s something that resonates with you that you can see the next maybe pathway from reading it. And it’s going to be different for everybody.

Raechele Pope
Welcome to Student Affairs NOW the online learning community for Student Affairs educators, I’m your host Raechele Pope. Today we’re discussing how indigenous students navigate, negotiate, and even thrive in higher education with Dr. Amanda Tachine. Student Affairs NOW is the premier podcast and learning community for 1000s of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays, and you can find us at studentaffairsnow.com on YouTube or anywhere that you listen to podcast. This episode is brought to you by Stylus publishing, visit styluspub.com and use the promo code SANow for 30% off and free shipping. This episode is also sponsored by LeaderShape. Go to leadershape.org to learn how they can work with you to create a just caring and thriving world. And stay tuned to the end of the podcast for more information about each sponsor. As I mentioned I’m Raechele Pope My pronouns are she her hers, and I’m broadcasting from Williamsville, New York near the campus of the University of Buffalo, where I serve as a Senior Associate Dean of Faculty and Student Affairs and the unit Diversity Officer for the Graduate School of Education. I’m also a professor in the higher education and student affairs programs. The University of Buffalo is situated on the unseeded ancestral homeland of the people. I’m joined today by Amanda Tachine, the author of native presence and sovereignty on campus sustaining indigenous weapons to the feet systemic monsters, Amanda Tachine is brilliant and uncompromising in her critical examination of what causes harm and the systemic barriers that make it difficult to create meaningful change in higher education. And I hope that this episode will highlight the struggles and the strengths of Native students and offer a path forward for colleges and universities to connect with these students in meaningful and indigenous centric ways. I am so excited and quite honestly honored to have this important conversation and to share this space with Dr. Tachine. You had Tay Welcome for joining me today for this episode of Student Affairs now, and welcome to the podcast. Can you begin by telling us a little bit about you your current role on your campus and your pathways in higher education?

Amanda R. Tachine
Absolutely and first can I acknowledge your beautiful introduction particularly about how you are asserting denef language by saying yes and he had this often poorly. You tried that is just so like a beautiful and that means you were that you listen to that you try to find that you know you did that. And that is just so meaningful to me. And I just want to say thank you for doing that. Ahé’hee’, shí éí Amanda Tachine yinishyé. Náneesht’ézhí Táchii’nii nishłí, Tł’izilani bashishchiin. Tábaahí ei da shicheii aadoo Ashiihi ei da shinalí. Lo’kaahniteel déé naashá. Akót’éego diné azdzáán nishłí. I introduced myself to you and the way I’ve always been raised to do so in my Navajo language, which actually really connects with the book as well. It identifies my four plans and we’re matrilineal society, which I feel is really beautiful given we’re in a hetero patriarchy nation state. There’s still powerful matriarchs, in my culture, and then many other groups of people that thrive and an honor and respect matriarchs and our family so I come from that community. And I also in my introduction, I say where I’m from, I’m from a small rural reservation community called Ganado. But in Navajo, it’s looked on here, which means the patch of wide reeds, I’m really feel proud of where I come from. And often when I talk about it, I it just makes me feel good to know to be from my community of Ganado. And then the last thing we say in Navajo is actually we identify our positionality as a woman. So nowadays, we’re saying she her hers. I love that we’re identifying that and I like to. But in our Navajo language we already do that. We I say, which means that I identify myself as a Navajo woman. And so we say that in our introductions, and so I’m here and I’m just really grateful to be a part of this. I’m a fan of Student Affairs NOW. And you all are doing phenomenal work Dr. Pope and all of you and alongside you in this work. So I just, I’m just abundantly grateful and full of joy this morning to be alongside you today. I’m channeling and from the land of the people in Phoenix, Arizona, which we’ve been receiving beautiful rain showers the last few days, which has just made drinking coffee really nice and just taking walks and what the dampness with my dog in the morning really pleasurable. I’m faculty at Arizona State University and a higher education program there. And I’m just, I just, I’m just thankful for this conversation. So to talk about this beautiful book that I hope that you pick up, many of you pick up if you’ve already picked it up and read it. Thank you, if you shared it, yeah, I’d love that. If you have it in your library, or I thank you so much. It’s just feeling so great to see the way students are picking it up high school students are picking up people are using it in their grad to undergrad in native communities and others. And I just Gosh, that’s the reason why I wrote it. So thank you for allowing me to talk about that today.

Raechele Pope
But we’re thrilled there is so much that we need to do to improve our campuses for so many students, for so many faculty and staff for all of us. So that people can go out and do the kind of work they need to be doing. And creating the kind of society that we’d like to create. And so so thank you, you know, really thank you for for this important work. So let’s, let’s start at the beginning. I love to get to these origin stories. How did this book come to be? There’s a lot of books that you can write, as a faculty member, there’s a lot of research that you can do, but how did this book come into existence?

Amanda R. Tachine
I love how even framed it as an origin story, as you know, you know, I think that there’s many origin stories to this book. In many ways, I feel like maybe put quite possibly I was born to do this. Like maybe it was already planted in me through prayers for my generations back that, that I would do this work. I mean, I like to think that way, and all of what I do, but also in my future my children’s lives, like I like to think that they already have something destined for for them. Because if you really see my trajectory, my through line of my life, it’s just feels like it’s just has unfolded to produce a book such as this by growing up in our in my home community where a lot of what the students that I share struggles are what I experience. Also growing up in a home where my mom was a teacher on the on the reservations in reservation school setting. So I grew up in her classrooms helping her clean up staying after for her parent teacher conference events when I was a little girl, you know, and then also seeing my grandmother helped out with the school. So I grew up just around and seeing the emphasis of education is critically important for us. Then fast forward, my Bachelor’s actually is in education and I went back home and I taught in my home community. And then I then fast forward I ended up teaching in Tucson Arizona at a charter school for four predominantly students in that region, that’s where their homelands are. And University of Arizona was literally in their backyard of that school. And I would take my students to campus and and they would feel like many of them had never been to campus, even though as walking distance right there.

Amanda R. Tachine
And so then I was, you know, introduced to the field of higher ed in that timeframe, I didn’t even know that there was such a thing. I knew there was education, and teacher, Ed and superintendents and all of that, because that’s my life, but didn’t know higher ed. And so then I started taking classes got a degree in it, I was an administrator in higher education, I’ve served as the director of the native Center at U of A. And then from there, I started realizing how many of my colleagues and peers did not know about how to support Native students, it was so like screaming at me, and I and how much evidence based evidence based research was just critical and advocating legitimizing your space and your resources for particular students, predominantly, those who have been marginalized section for generations. And that’s when I see I recognize, like we need we meaning me need to do research and have evidence based research for folks to really advocate for Native students. And so this book was actually my dissertation research, and was my first time really engaging in deep and in depth about this. And understanding 10 Native students first year in college, and I nourished it and when I went through, when I was doing my dissertation, I was writing I already already knew I was going to put it into a book. I just I was already writing my dissertation like this is going to be a book I don’t know where that came from. Honestly, that’s how I feel like it was probably prayed for before. Like, I already knew I was gonna write it. So I was even structuring my dissertation, like, what the ideas going to one day become a book and so on. So yeah, there’s many origin stories as to how that this book evolved. And I just, if I, we could sit for hours and I could talk to you more, and you probably get bored. And I would be in tears because there was so much moments of that have helped me to get to get to where you all get to turn the pages on? Yeah.

Raechele Pope
Oh, well, thank you. You know, I think about that. And I think that I really love that image of that this has always been there for you that somehow this was you were always going to write this book. And I’ll tell you, it’s so important because we’ve needed it for a long time, you know, racially marginalized students on our campus or students who are culturally marginalized and marginalized in all sorts of ways, we still aren’t serving their needs and that we, we need to, and we need to figure out how to and how to do it better and well, because their lives depend on it. It’s not just because we’re trying to be better at the work that we’re doing, because their lives and livelihood and, and spirit, when self depend on it. So how about for those who haven’t read the book yet, because by the way, listeners, if you haven’t read that book, you need to run out and get it, you need to get it. So for those who haven’t read the book yet, or haven’t had the opportunity to work with indigenous college students, what’s most important for them to understand about how higher education is harmful to Indigenous students?

Amanda R. Tachine
Yeah, well, the book if those of you that haven’t read it yet, it’s follows the lives of 10 Navajo students during I interviewed them during their first year in college. But the book is divided into two big sections. And the first section is actually their senior year in high school, because when I was talking with them, so much of their experience was connected to their prior context and their high school experience. And so half of the book is their senior year, and kind of gets to that college access conversations that we have meaning, you know, when I was working as Student Affairs, there was such a push to move toward everything being online at that time, meaning like, you’ve been your application should be all online. And I remember I used to advocate like, well, there’s so many communities that actually don’t have the tools, the broadband, the infrastructure to go online, they’re still doing paper, you know, and pen applications. And I would get frustrated, because I felt like many of my colleagues they like really didn’t believe me. Right, right. So this book explains, like goes in depth about the home conditions, how many of these students and so I, so I’m getting ahead of myself, so I share the first year, then the first year experience during the second part of the book, the book is framed around monsters. And there’s four monsters that I’m identifying in each section. And the idea of monsters actually is connected to our oral stories of the people’s, like in our we, and we are right now in my belief system that we are in the fifth world. This is called the glittering world, that we have a glittering, glittering world and that we have evolved in different worlds prior to now we’re at the fifth we have emerged. So that’s why when you hear that we’re connected to the land, we literally emerge from the land. And so in these prior worlds there and there was monsters that were killing our people. And and there’s the story of these two twin warriors who defeated some monsters and saved our people today. And this story is told, you know, in many places growing up as a Navajo you hear this, especially during after the first note, I can talk about it now because we just had our first note and the wintertime. So this protocol of when to share and so forth. And so one of the students in the interview her name, Cecilia, it’s a pseudonym. She actually told me that she conceptualize that all Native students who go to college are like warriors, just like when warriors

Amanda R. Tachine
and that there are monsters that are threatening their ability to keep moving forward. And that we then she said and so we she used the term we meaning her and her alongside her peers, Native students like we are, are fighting and we are we are the warriors. With this idea of getting degree as helping our community. Same way what twin wars to defeat the monsters is like worse, we’re saving our Navajo people. Education then is seen as a value of not just an economic benefit that we often frame in higher education, you know, we’re really good about doing that. But students and other researchers like Jamison Lopez and others are saying, like, that’s important. But the other story is this idea of reciprocity and giving back and really building a native nation building ups, sovereignty. And so, so the book then frames the monster. So then I was wondering, what are the monsters? What are these contemporary monsters is the book I talk about these contemporary monsters, but then I didn’t want to be have a book of just deficit. And just, like hardship and struggle that we’re so good about doing as researchers were, were, we’ve been professionalized to problematize to critique our work.

Amanda R. Tachine
But what then there’s implications for that, you know, what do we do when we continue to do that? What kind of world are we creating for ourselves? And what kind of world? And what power are we limiting joy and love and, and harmony that’s occurring in our lives? And so, you know, I wanted to then identify the indigenous weapons, I use the language of indigenous weapons of what did the students use? What was the tools that they use to defeat the monsters, or to navigate through the monsters? So the book is around those ideas of monsters? They’re warriors, they’re monsters. Slayers, they’re using weapons during college because they’re present.

Raechele Pope
Mm hmm. You know, that is so powerful. And it really when I started to read the book, well, when I was looking at just the title, and just before I started the book, I said monsters, and I said, my I was why otherwise, in a sense, these systems and the the barriers, the systemic barriers, and then I started to read, and I started to learn, you know, what I mean, that we, we the constant reminders that we need about the cultural connections. And so this whole story about the twin warriors, and why you defeat the monsters and why you need to be warriors was so powerful to me, and so instructive, you know, to take my own ideas and beliefs and set it aside, to read and to learn and to understand. And now it’s like, yeah, I get monsters, right, you know, I get I get why the student is seeing it that way, the students who talked about it that way. So, so let’s help the readers and the listeners understand what are the systemic monsters that plague higher education? And what can we do to start dismantling them? And, and, and, and stuff like that?

Amanda R. Tachine
Yeah, you know, I, I like your thoughts, too, because I really, I think the reason why I felt like it was important to name, I write in the book to name the monsters because growing up on the reservation, and also, being alongside my, some of my community, I don’t want to say that this is happening across all people, I want to be careful about that across all native or Navajos. But there’s a tendency to blame the conditions that were living, or that we’re living, blame ourselves.

Amanda R. Tachine
Because we don’t get to learn about the systemic monsters in our schooling, or in higher education. And not until maybe later on like, I didn’t even learn about settler colonialism is one of the monsters right how I was graduated from my doctoral program, and I was reading up on my own because I didn’t have an indigenous scholar in my higher ed program to teach me that language. So I remember growing up at Conoco feeling like oh, why are we always living paycheck to paycheck? Why do we have to drive like, such a far distance to get milk and get groceries? Why, you know, why is there just pervasiveness of even alcoholism in the neighboring border town on the reservation? And I would be like, what’s wrong with us? And I think this is similar to many communities. When we’re like living in the struggle, the struggle is real. we internalize it, and I use the language we the monstrous, monstrous internalization, we internalize. It’s our fault. And that’s, and I’m wanting to talk. I’m writing this book to young people’s like my love letter to my children to let them know like, there are deep seated monsters centuries old that created the conditions in which where our families and our communities are living today. And that’s why it’s hard for our communities and our people in our communities to get a job on Navajo land like that simple. So I want them to have the language and the understanding of those monsters. So the definition then of systemic monsters are the interlocking structures of power rooted in white supremacy, settler colonialism, racism, erasure, hetero patriarchy and capitalism that disrupt sovereignty and belonging. Those are some big words. And we know those words because we study it now as doctors, but my young, my high school student, my, my son, he’s not learning about erasure or even racism in his school, or hetero patriarchy. And so it’s this giving them the language for that is was really critical for me. And so I’m not going to talk about all the monsters, but maybe I’ll talk about one. One of the monsters, for example, is actually called the financial hardship monster, right. And this was the senior year in high school, that first half. So what I was finding, as students were the 10 students, some of these students were living in high school with no running water, electricity, getting back to that earlier comment about technology. And so then they were sharing with me their senior year of like, they’re like, academically strong, all these students are academically strong. And then feeling the burden of really trying hard to stay on top of their academics because they knew that they could not afford college, because their their families are living off of, you know, just trying to get live paycheck to paycheck, right. And so these students, then the financial hardship monster is illustrating the context of their living conditions. Right. And this was important because many people don’t know that many homes on Navajo don’t have running water electricity in 2022 right now. And so I talked about COVID at the beginning of this book, because COVID spread rapidly in our community. We are a hot as all over national news. And and that timeframe we were, we’re feeling like what’s wrong with us? Why can we be healthy, why we’re not washing our hands what’s wrong? But then it’s the same logic is because, well, we don’t have many homes, we don’t have running water, families are living in one room houses. That’s far distance to get health care and groceries. This is this is where I’m from. Right? So it’s COVID. Then our President, our Navajo Nation President was saying COVID is the monster he was using that language. COVID is a monster our people need to fight against the monster and I shared delicately in the book like no disrespect president of the Navajo Nation. COVID is not the monster.

Amanda R. Tachine
The systemic structures, the systemic monsters have maintained conditions for COVID to spread is the monster settler colonialism, the history of our land and why. So then in the book, I talk about why it’s why the living conditions exist. And it’s really connected to the treaty rights, federal policies that make it difficult for even to start a business on Navajo land. And I talked about that, of all the red tape just to start one business. That’s why there was only at the time I was writing this book, only 13 grocery stores on Navajo land and the same land base of West Virginia. Right? That’s right, that gives you illustration. So in the book, then financial hardship monster, I’m laying the context, I’m talking about settler colonialism, the control of land, and when that history happened with the federal government, and now why the infrastructure and the system of our people, it makes it hard for us to have thriving lives because of all of the federal policy. So then when a student like Sarah is living in a tough conditions of you know, I say she has no running water, electricity, but she’s strong. Like I don’t want to make this thing oh, they’re under struggling. No, they are the students know how to survive in this. I mean, if we were going to have an apocalypse, we would they would know how to survive. They have other knowledge bases of surviving and homelife like that, right. But but at the end of the day, though, when do you see college as $20,000 a year for in state? That’s a real financial hardship monster. Right? I start illustrating that monster, providing the history of the context to to demonstrate settler colonial is the root of that monster. And then it makes us aware of like, wow, when we raise tuition, it impacts students like Sarah, and what she’s trying to do to better her life and her community. So there’s four different there’s four monsters in there, but each monster I do that I go to the history, the centuries old monsters and how they form, how erasure was formed in that in educational contexts, and how it plays out in students lives, currently, and to give them the language that they need. So then they understand like now now, when I did this, it was helpful for me like now I understand why my family had to drive hours away to get groceries, right, because there was no place nearby in our home community because of the red tape and how it’s difficult. So yeah, so it was a healing process for me and learning that, but also recognizing, like, gosh, we’re not even teaching these in our school settings. And then we internalize it’s our fault. And I’m like saying, No, it’s not the fault of the people. And it’s the fault of a broken system that continues to keep our status quo.

Raechele Pope
Well, that makes me think right now of these wars around critical race theory, for example, we can’t, if you teach people to really examine the structural problems, to really understand the systemic nature of this oppression to really understand colonial oppression and all of these things. Oh, now that’s dangerous. So we’re not trying to hit critical race theory, because it makes somebody feel rid of critical race theory, because it makes somebody feel badly. We’re getting rid of critical race theory and other theories that are going to examine this systemic oppression, because it’s going to uproot the whole system, once we have the language to talk about at once we can to pin it back. So this is so powerful, as you’re talking about these monsters and sharing this language and this understanding, because as long as you can convince me that how I’m living where I’m living is my own fault. And I’ve convinced other folks, you know, with white supremacy, that the reason you’re living like that is your fault. We never, we won’t change anything. So that is so incredibly powerful. Just amazing. And you’ve mentioned only two of the students you interviewed, I think 10 Yeah, mentioned two of them, Sarah and Cecilia and these powerful lessons that you learned were able to take from them. And I’m wondering if you had some other powerful lessons that you might want to share one or two from some of the other students or more than those two, taught you?

Amanda R. Tachine
Yeah, each of them just Gosh, when I was in the depth of like, listening to their stories over and over again, I just was just marked by so much, how much wisdom that they can they give us. And it was really healing in my own life of things, challenges I was undergoing during the writing process and hearing them. So one of them. For example, one of the indigenous weapons is actually about prayer. And they all talked about prayer in different ways, because they all have different, I think we would use the language of denomination based upon particular religion. They didn’t they didn’t use that language, but they would say things like, I was raised traditional. So that means that they have the Navajo teachings. And prayer is really influential in there. And so Lauren is one of those students that comes to mind because her mother instilled in her traditional values of prayer. And so she would tell her, she would tell Lauren, like wherever you are, remember where you come from. And remember, prayer, and prayer will give you the strength. And so Lauren, in her first year, one of the monsters that was really plaguing her was called I call it the deficit, not enough monster. And so it’s just this. No, I’m sorry. It’s called a failure monster, fear of failure monster.

Amanda R. Tachine
And it was this idea of like, the students were just really scared of failing. And I put us failing and as meaning because it if they fail their math or chemistry, then it impacted their GPA, impacted their financial aid, then impact their sense of continuing in school, right? It disrupted their whole sense of belonging to because they are top high school students. They’re coming into college and they’re getting their first failing grades. So it disrupted belonging. And so Lauren in particular really was on her. It was it was pressing on her heart she would have been the first oldest sibling in her family. She felt like she had a lot of responsibility to do well. But she when she would go home she would talk about she was a cattle girl so she was always around her horses. So she talked about going back home and being around her horse and just talking to her horse and that also was a practice of like, getting things out unloading and to talk and to me it you know we use the language of more than human relations a lot. And I feel like that gives value of also to like our our relatives that are non human, and how much they also I think we don’t talk about that enough in hire ed maybe we tease about on Twitter, or we talk about our dog.

Amanda R. Tachine
But in this book in this journey, I was hearing more so about really the value of relationships that she had with her, her horses in particular. And she wasn’t the only one. So this idea, then a prayer was really powerful, because they were all sharing how the in that way, they didn’t feel like they were alone. They, they, they felt like they had something that they can go to when they were on in college. And so that really touched my heart. And it really when I was writing about prayer, and how comfort, much comfort they received in that. And so that gives us a lot of thinking about and Student Affairs about what does that mean, for us, when we’re thinking about prayer, and the different ways prayer is maybe limited, or we’re fearful of it, or, you know, the different ways that we maybe don’t talk about it. But I felt like when I was with the students and writing and hearing them how critical it was for them to be able to access the connection to prayer. So the weapon is then this idea of it’s the idea of reverence of sacredness, and that’s a weapon.

Amanda R. Tachine
And in, and that had the hat, but how we have that they had that regard of that. And they didn’t get to a place like, Oh, this is I’m Christian. And so this is the way we want to be or I’m like this, they didn’t have any of those type of language. They were really like, I felt like inclusive, I don’t know if that’s accurate term buts feels close to it, this idea of like, holding each other can in their different value systems. Because some are Christian, some are Mormon, some identified as another one called a Native American church. So they had different denominations, but they all talked about that. And that really touched my heart. And that’s something that I practice because, you know, I reinforced because of being close to their stories. So that wisdom is real. They taught me a lot. And so now when I do my talk, sometimes I’m talking just the other day, I talked with high school students, and I talked about the power of prayer, and about are practicing something that gives them strength, and when you go to college, how that is a useful weapon for you. And how that and it gives me an opportunity to talk about about that, because the students brought it to me in this in this work.

Raechele Pope
Well, you know, that’s, it’s, it’s really an interesting time to talk about prayer, where because our our conversations around what’s happening on campuses with different groups, let’s say evangelical Christians, and how some would say that they are using their perspective and being on what it means to be a prayerful person or whatever, and using it to harm others. And so that the student affairs response has been not, let’s not talk about that, or the education in general, you know, public education in general, saying, We can’t talk about those things rather than taking a real nuanced, and perspective that allows people to find the strength where they find it. And yet, as the students modeled for you, you don’t have to do it by way. I’m talking about the way that this is the way I do it. And here’s how you do it, and how do we find our strengths and our joy? And what do we battle against, together? And I think that we need a different and a more nuanced look. And again, as you said, the students taught us so much, because reading that really helped me to see this differently. You know, and so that was really powerful. Again, I like you, I was blown away by the wisdom, the students shared so so that was pretty impressive.

Amanda R. Tachine
Like, I know, your next question, but I just want to affirm your thinking, I think we do need to do a look at and be more nuanced approach to how we think about prayer. Because I think, I think that’s something that is critical in our work. Otherwise, it gets to a place where we just don’t we just don’t include it, you know, what, how is that the how has that also another aspect of close enough knowledge systems, or like in my language and indigenous weapons that gives strength to particular groups. So how do we think about prayer and how do we think about the nuanced approach of including it that doesn’t? That that allows abundancy I think we I feel needs that and I thank you for saying that. I just want to reaffirm I agree with you. Yeah.

Raechele Pope
Yeah, I mean, I think it’s different I think we have this all or nothing response. Yeah. And we’re afraid to have conversations we’re afraid not to have conversations around it. And what that word is because some people are far more comfortable with the word meditation or or some other aspects, and I don’t care what use words they use, I’m more concerned with, what does it bring? And what what are our students telling us they need from this? So there is something there. I want to ask, I want to shift this to the other side, too. We’ve heard from the students, we’ve heard from you, we’ve talked about this. And I’m wondering what we need to do as Student Affairs educators as higher education, educators, as faculty, as staff, you know, what are some basic actions that campuses can do now, and campuses can build to do later, to better support Indigenous students? You know, I can pick 123 basic actions that we can do.

Amanda R. Tachine
I know, it’s so easy for us to want to tie things up, right? Yeah. Because Student Affairs, we want the nice easy steps. And, I remember when I was writing the book, I’m looking at my book, too, because in the last chapter, I was struggling in providing whether to provide actually these like 123. Because I know that in our work, we want that. I think as a society, we want that we want to lose weight, let’s do these 123 things you want to do this. I mean, it’s, it helps us and I know there’s advantages and having that. But at the same time, I was struggling with that. Because in our in our storytelling like storytelling, when I talked about the twin warriors, you know, I’ve heard it in various ways at different times by various storytellers. And after they tell us a story, they don’t tell us, okay, here are two or three lessons from this story. Right? There isn’t that there hasn’t ever been, I don’t have a one time where I felt like there, I got that after that. And it’s connected to this ideal where whatever everybody comes into stories, in their own time and their own place with their own need, I don’t know who’s listening to this, what you are trying to gain or where you need you, what you have planted in your heart of what you want to do, let’s say for Native students on your campus. Because I don’t know, I don’t know what it is everyone’s different. And the context is different. But when you read this book, I hope that there’s something that resonates with you that you can see the next maybe pathway from reading it. And it’s going to be different for everybody. And so I tried as much as I can to adhere to that in my writing, by honoring ways by saying, but not making it like a 123 step. Sure. Acknowledging that everyone will come. I did though, and also to this book was written for. I started the book by saying Dear, it means like my children. So my audience and this is I’m writing to actually my children. And when I think of my not only my children, I think of the many native college students that I’ve had been privileged and honored to be alongside. And, and so I’m thinking of them, and so it was hard for so then it wasn’t, then it makes sense for me to write to, to non, to non natives about about what to get from this, but I did offer a little letter, a little piece at the end, so I was gonna bring that up. So in the conclusion around on page 177, I write a brief note to teachers, professors, administrators and policymakers. And I’m gonna read a little bit about it.

Amanda R. Tachine
This book was written for native peoples, as it should be. But I know that some of you who are reading are non native, possibly seeking ways to support natives possibly embarking on learning something new, possibly being required to read this and are possibly being given this book as a gift. For whatever reason that you came to enter this story rug, I thought it would be good to leave you with a note. Truth is that the decisions that you make affect my children and native communities. Truth is, that is how life works and operates in a cyclical nature. And sometimes I wonder if you realize that, that is why this note is for you. I returned to the question that I posed at the beginning of this book, and again in this chapter, repetition is necessary. The question is Who sets the terms of belonging, there is a politics of belonging. And now you may also be more aware that there are monsters, then with this knowing what can you do direction through the unblocking process, and respectfully support, relational sovereign belonging. This is something that you will have to work through. I only have a few thoughts and a few more questions, but I hope that you will further engage in these questions, and actively build meaningful relationships with others, and the land to proceed with love and care.

Amanda R. Tachine
So what I’m trying to do in this section is to for these questions of in the whole book is really about who sets the terms of belonging, I talk a lot about belonging in higher education, we theorize it, we research it, I’m taking a step back and asking, Okay, but who is setting the terms of belonging?

Amanda R. Tachine
And what does that mean for you, and who is excluded in those in those ideas of belonging. And so this brief note then is asking us, and also helping folks to think about that a little bit, a little bit more, particularly around native students. And I, I often say, even in the work of diversity, inclusion, equity and justice that is occurring right now, in this climate that we’re having. Native students are still left out of those conversations. There’s many, many times where I’ve been in, I’ve been in committee works. I’ve been asked to speak about this across across the country, and Native students are not included in these conversations. And so again, it goes back to who sets the terms. And I learned that question from my mentor, and good friend and colleague, Dr. Brian Brayboy, he’s constantly reminded me, who sets the terms of the debate. And so in our work, then I’m thinking who sets the terms of belonging in the work that we’re doing.

Amanda R. Tachine
And so I encourage you to read that book, I asked him questions. And I also hope that you feel okay. But I’m not going to give you 123 step process. It’s really an intuitive, reflectivity activity. And I don’t even know if activities is the right word engagement, and thinking about where you’re at, and where you’re situated, what’s the what’s what’s happening. And not only in student affairs, but I hope you also pick it up in your own life.

Amanda R. Tachine
Because when we exit the campus, we are still living beings operating in this land in this place with other people. And so this is not a, this is not a time to hang your jacket, you’re done. And now you live your life. It’s a way in which you you’re you you encompass that that everything into your whole well being and your whole essence. And so I’m asking folks to do that. And I’m doing it for my own self as well. And it’s a discipline. We were talking about that earlier, but it’s a discipline, meaning I it’s not natural for me. And so I have to discipline myself to practice to be alongside others, and learn about other people and the ways in which I’m conceptually evolved longing for myself, and belonging, what does that look like for communities. And so, so I’m on the exploration as well. And I, and it’s not easy, but I encourage folks to, to engage in that. And so when so one example I’m doing is I, as I’ve done even in this book, I’ve been really empowered and inspired by black thinkers. And I feel like there’s such a relationships. And there’s,

Amanda R. Tachine
I don’t know if solidarity is an accurate term I’m still wanting to see but it’s like being alongside black scholars has really helped me in my thinking. And so I give a lot of credit to my colleagues, Qian McGuire, Meseret Hailu, where we have read and dialogue intimately with each other, shared letters with each other, about about their reading into indigenous intellectual thought, I’m reading black, indigenous, I mean, black thought, intellectual thought, and we’re engaging in conversations together and writing together and being alongside each other. And I feel like that’s helped me to grow as a person. So that’s just one example of how I’m engaging on who sets the terms of debate of belonging, because I want my belonging as a native woman, alongside my, my black community alongside me and my features as with black, black communities and other communities. So so so so that’s where I’ve kind of I feel like going all over the place right now but just thinking about how everybody is different and where they come into it and what they will move, go moving forward.

Raechele Pope
No, I don’t think you were sll over the place, I think you were just spot on. And I think it’s, you know, this is what happens with me in these conversations, because now that’s a whole other 30 minute conversation that you can have just so powerful. And I really love the way that you push back on that question because, you know, this is what we do in student affairs. And partly because someone says, I don’t know enough, tell me what to do. And I love you’re pushing back and saying, I can’t tell you what to do, I can give you the story, I can give you some information, I can share with you my experience, or in this case, it also the experience of these 10 students, which you know, represents this bigger picture. Now, what does that do to you, and for the people who do see, and I’ve talked about this a long time, people who see this equity, justice, diversity and inclusion work as a suit that I put on when I come to work, and then I’m leaving work, now I get to hang the jacket up, as you said, then then you don’t get the message. And you need to spend some more time. In reflection. I also love your whole thing about how we are we need to be in conversation with each other, you know, what do we learn from other communities? And what do we have to share? You know, you know, I love that you’re talking about what you’re learning from black intellectual thought. And me I even narrow that down the work of, of black women who have been doing this kind of work, pushing it out there, and how it keeps getting hidden. And we bring in these other speakers, and I think all of these voices need to be talked about. And so I really, really appreciate this conversation. And we’re gonna have to do this more.

Raechele Pope
We’re gonna have to like, sort of bring this to a close for this experience, but we’ll keep finding more. I want to take a moment here to thank our sponsors, Stylus publications, and LeaderShape. Stylus is proud to be a sponsor of Student Affairs NOW, and this whole podcast, please browse through their student affairs, diversity and professional development titles at styluspub.com. And use the promo code SANow and you can get 30% off all books plus free shipping. And you can also find Stylus on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, LinkedIn, and Twitter @styluspub

Raechele Pope
LeaderShape partners with colleges and universities to create transformational leadership experiences both virtual and in person, for students and professionals with a focus on creating a more just caring and thriving world. LeaderShape offers engaging learning experiences on courageous dialogue, integrity, equity, resilience, and community building. And to find out more, please visit leadershape.org/virtualprograms or connect with them on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn.

Raechele Pope
I want to send a huge and heartfelt shout out to Natalie Ambrosey, the production assistant for the podcast. She does all of the good behind the scenes work that makes us look and sound good. Great, actually, to our listeners. I’m so grateful for all your time today. This conversation has given me so much to think about and has really been soothing to my soul. I hope it’s done the same for you. As you listen today, if you find this content to be useful for your student affairs practice and scholarship, we’d love it if you’d share this episode with your social media networks. Again, I’m Raechele Pope. And thanks again to Dr. Amanda Tachine and to everyone who’s listening and watching. Please, folks, take time for each other.

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