Lisa Delacruz Combs
Basically, one of the key parts of compassionate caution is this. If we’ve you’ve mentioned it is when we’re drawing these parallels. It is not that we want to assert sameness across these systems of power, and across these identity experiences. Honestly, I’ve never said this before. But as we’ve been sitting here, I’ve been thinking about compassionate caution means to apply nuance to something. So there’s not it. There’s not like a GPS system where you can put in your destination, and it tells you exactly how to get there. Applying something with compassionate caution means to consider it with nuance, and to think about empathy when we’re drawing these parallels.

Keith Edwards
Hello and welcome to Student Affairs NOW, I’m your host Keith Edwards. Today we’re discussing the new book Identity Interconnections: Pursuing Poststructural Possibility in Student Affairs Practice with the two editors, doctors Aeriel Ashlee and Lisa Delacruz Combs. I am so excited to learn from you. Student Affairs NOW is the premier podcast and online learning community for thousandss of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays find details about this episode, or browse our archives at studentaffairsnow.com. This episode is brought to you by Stylus visit styluspub.com and use promo code promo code SANOW for 30% off and free shipping, including on this book. Today’s episode is sponsored by Symplicity as well. A true partner Symplicity supports all aspects of student life with technology platforms that empower institutions to make data driven decisions. As I mentioned, I’m your host, Keith Edwards. My pronouns are he him his. I’m a speaker, consultant and coach and you can find out more about me at keithedwards.com. I’m broadcasting from Minneapolis, Minnesota at the intersections of the ancestral homelands of the Dakota in the Ojibwe peoples. Let’s get to our conversation. And I’m so grateful for you both for joining us today. Let’s start with a little bit more of an introduction Aeriel. Let’s go ahead and start with you. Sure,

Aeriel Ashlee
thanks so much for having us, Keith. So again, my name is Aeriel Ashlee, I use she and her pronouns. And I’m an assistant professor and the graduate director of the College Counseling and Student Development master’s program at St. Cloud State University, which is just about an hour north of the Twin Cities metro. I am calling in from Minneapolis, Minnesota as well. And really excited to be here and talk about this project, which has been a labor of love for a few years now for Lisa and I

Lisa Delacruz Combs
Hi, everyone. Oh, thank you. Thanks. Good. Hi, everyone. It’s so great to be in community with all of you. My name is Lisa Delacruz Combs and I use she her pronouns. Keith, I really appreciate you manifesting my future into existence. But I’m actually a PhD candidate and student at Ohio State University. So I’m not a doctor yet. But I’m not

Keith Edwards
just gonna speak what we want to have into existence. Yeah, absolutely.

Lisa Delacruz Combs
I loved that. You said that. I was like, yes, please speak this into my future. But I’m in the higher education student affairs program. And I’m setting topics related to race multispeciality and liminality. So that’s how I’m connected to this work around identity or connections. And I am broadcasting in from Columbus, Ohio, which I want to acknowledge is the ancestral and contemporary homelands of the Shawnee Potawatomi, Delaware, Miami, Peoria, Seneca, Wyandotte, Ojibwe and Cherokee peoples.

Keith Edwards
Wonderful. Well, thank you both for being here. I love reading this book. Some of the particularly your introduction and your framing, and then all the many different examples throughout was really exciting to me connected with a lot of things that I’ve been thinking about for a while, but also opened up some new possibilities. And it was really great. So encourage folks to check it out. But we’re gonna have a chance to talk a little bit about it. Your your the editors, tell us how this project came to be? I think Aeriel you’re going to lead us off here.

Aeriel Ashlee
Yeah, so actually, it kind of got started with a coffee conversation. So several years ago, Lisa and I were both at Miami University in Ohio. And I had the privilege of teaching one of Lisa’s classes that kind of sparked some conversation. And we ended up wanting to just connect outside of class. So we got together, had a cup of coffee, and just shared stories around our experiences, as part of but also feeling kind of conditional relationships to the Asian American community. So I identify as a transracial Asian American adoptee. And Lisa is a multiracial, white and Asian Filipina person. And so we’ve kind of talked about what it meant to always feel like we didn’t fully belong to and with Asian and white spaces. And so that kind of personal story sharing led us to explore some readings together, pursue conversations with other mentors, Mark Johnston Guerrero, in particular, and kind of led us to pursuing this idea of, you know, how might folks connect around similar experiences, even if they have distinctly different positionality and identities? And so yeah, that kind of was the initial entree into the conversation. And then we had the opportunity through a couple of different conference presentations to further explore what this could evolve into. So it went from being like a personal connection. In relationship into potential practice or recommendation, or how our field can think about inviting folks to connect across differences. And so yeah, it’s been a fun journey. That’s kind of I mean, been a process, right? I think this has been a five year endeavor.

Keith Edwards
Five years since that first cup of coffee is.

Lisa Delacruz Combs
It’s been a great five years. So it’s been wonderful to work with Aeriel. But like she said, I think what happened for us personally was we started drawing connections specifically about existing beyond racial rigidity, we were existing beyond what it means to be Asian American, or what people believe it meant to be Asian American. And that was something I’d never talked about that with anyone before. And so I felt that experience would be really empowering. But in our conversations, I also noticed that what it means to be a transracial adoptee is still really different than what it means to be multiracial. And in my relationship with Aeriel, I learned ways to continue to aspire to show up better as like an aspiring ally for and with transracial adoptees. And I think what we noticed how this became such a big project and a book was that we started recognizing that a lot of people were drawing these parallels across different identity experiences. So the way that Aeriel and I talked about it is that became really pervasive. It was so interesting, like, even as we moved away from each other, like, I would get a text from Aeriel of like it happened again, or like I noticed it here, and we would jump on a call and talk through it. And that’s when we realized we wanted to continue writing and exploring this idea and what it means to do that with stewardship and care when you’re drawing those connections, which we’ll probably talk a little bit more about later.

Aeriel Ashlee
Yeah, I think that piece that Lisa just said around like, just the ubiquitous nature of this, it wasn’t that necessarily people were calling what they were doing drawing identity interconnections, but just the process of trying to understand one’s own identity or experience by relating it to something else. I remember classroom conversations where students would say, like, oh, yeah, you know, passing talking about maybe their experience presenting as heteronormative, and then likening that to someone’s experience presenting as white, who might be multiracial or multi ethnic. And so I think for us, we realized, like, wow, that’s really potentially powerful as people are trying to make more sense of who they are. And that could be really dangerous, because it could also minimize some of the really distinct differences that are rooted in, you know, inherited systems of power. And so I think that that call to compassionate caution, is really what helps distinguish what we’re trying to share. And our hope is that that better than informs our field, to think about how can we use intuitive meaning making processes, but in a way that’s ethical and responsible and considerate of points of difference?

Keith Edwards
Yeah, I think I’ve thought about this a long way. And the language that I use is cross training. That’s the language that I use. When I’m, for me, I have, I feel like I have a lot more around whiteness, a lot more sort of academic learning articles, and all of these things. And then around my gender and my, my experience as a man, a lot of personal experiences, conversations and reflections. And when it comes to gender, like, Oh, I’m not sure what to do here. I often think well, what if this were an issue of race, and I’m very clear about how I would want to respond as a white person. And so I call that cross training, I often say and use very similar language. It’s not the same, but it’s often similar, right? And I think that’s where we get caught up, and how do we learn about this, but it’s not a you can always swap, right, you can always swap. And you can’t always do that. And I really appreciate you pointing out this identity and our connections as opportunity and possibility and a source of learning and understanding. And also a point of caution, and you can do harm and you can be misguided. And I think one of the things I see is folks, particularly in identities of privilege, when that becomes uncomfortable, and the responsibility there becomes uncomfortable. I’d rather slipping over into this identity, which maybe is has a lot of pain in it doesn’t have the responsibility. Go ahead add to that.

Aeriel Ashlee
I was just gonna say we have talked a lot about when folks try to draw those connections or parallels to pivot away from their own dominance or complicit, complicit pneus in someone else’s oppression. Like that’s where things start to go awry. Right. That’s what we’re trying to, like our intent with this book is to help folks recognize that that might be a really common natural reaction. Oh, sure. That comes with having to kind of confront the ways in which we are a part of and not separate from systems of power, privilege and oppression. And that’s what the compassionate call is all about that impetus You shouldn’t say rather than maybe take that tempting inclination to pivot away from the experience at hand, can we use that point of connection and then acknowledge our points of difference to actually have something concrete that we can do them to better show up as an ally for and with each other?

Keith Edwards
Yeah. Well used to you, the two of you use the term compassionate caution. Yeah, we were already referenced a couple times, let’s just slow down and explain to listeners what, what is that mean? And just so you know, in the book, it’s, it’s italicized. This is a new term. This is this is a thing. So tell us what this thing is compassionate caution.

Lisa Delacruz Combs
Yeah, it’s really funny that you asked me specifically, because when Ariel and I were generating this idea, I wish like, actually, this is an experience where people are getting to see like me and Aeriel’s brains work together. Because sometimes I wish it could. There could be like a fly on the wall and our conversations about some of these topics. But it was in one of these, like deep conversations where we were really passionate about it. And I was like, what if we called it compassionate caution, and Aeriel like loves that, and we kind of just stuck with it. But basically, one of the key parts of compassionate caution is this. If we’ve you’ve mentioned it is when we’re drawing these parallels. It is not that we want to assert sameness across these systems of power, and across these identity experiences. Honestly, I’ve never said this before. But as we’ve been sitting here, I’ve been thinking about compassionate caution means to apply nuance to something. So there’s not it. There’s not like a GPS system where you can put in your destination, and it tells you exactly how to get there. Applying something with compassionate caution means to consider it with nuance, and to think about empathy when we’re drawing these parallels. And Aeriel, do you want to add more to that? Because it’s such a complex thing. But I think Antonio Duran and one of his chapters talks about it through the lens of stewardship as well, just to make sure that we’re handling these conversations with care and intentionality.

Aeriel Ashlee
Yeah, I think one of the things that really helped us distinguish identity interconnections from some of the previous works that we kind of built upon including identity analogies, which Dr. Mark Johnston Guerrero and Vu Tran astera had co published on is really this, this piece of like, well, what’s the purpose of this practice of this meaning making connection. And it’s not to conflate two different experiences to suggest sameness. Rather, it is to provide an opportunity to better understand one’s own identity and how you can show up for others. And I think that’s really what compassionate caution is all about. It’s about having humility, that it’s not about just you and your experience and needing to be understood. But it’s about recognizing that we are inextricably connected. And so even if you hear an experience that sounds similar, there may be ways in which your positionality allows you to think critically about how you could unlearn or disrupt things that might contribute to someone else’s oppression.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, and Lisa, you mentioned the nuance. And as I was reading, I was thinking I was seeing nuance in some of the stories, I was also seeing paradox. And I hope I’m using this right. But for me, nuance is when there’s two things, and we want to be some somewhere in the middle, right? We don’t want to be in the binary we want to be in the middle space of that. And then paradox is when it is those two things at the same time, right? It is both of them are happening. And it’s not an either or, and there’s not a middle, it’s like, yeah, this is I’m getting it and I’m confused at the same time, right? That’s a good period, because that’s kind of where I am right here. Do you are you noticing that too?

Lisa Delacruz Combs
Oh, absolutely. That’s actually really connected to my dissertation work, which is around liminality as a construct and student development theory of this threshold existence and what it means to exist beyond rigidity, which I’ve also said a couple of times. But yeah, I think something that Aeriel and I talked about

Keith Edwards
Don’t know about for that. Tell us about women ality and threshold theory.

Lisa Delacruz Combs
Sure, yeah. So um, liminality is a concept that was coined by Victor Turner, and actually his wife, Edith Turner, as well, who doesn’t always get a credit, but they both coined the term and it’s from the anthropology, anthropology, discipline. And basically, it’s about existing in this threshold existence. And for the people that can see me it’s like this in between space, and I often describe it as like, just existing beyond existing beyond what currently exists. And so, specifically for my dissertation, I’m interested in talking with college students that may have liminal identities. So examples are multiracial people. Students who may straddle multiple classes gender non binary students, interfaith students, and talking to them about how they expect Iran’s liminality and what it means to, like I said exists beyond the categories that are created by the systems of power.

Keith Edwards
Okay, now Aeriel you can jump in here to tell me about threshold hearing threshold theory, particularly as you refer to it as healing and transformative potential.

Aeriel Ashlee
Do you want to share first Lisa?

Lisa Delacruz Combs
No, Aeriel, go for it. That’s your wheelhouse.

Aeriel Ashlee
So So threshold theorizing, I think for me part of the reason why has been so like life giving really, which, I mean, how often do we describe theory is life giving. I think oftentimes, that’s not the case. But I really found that to be true. And part because it has, for me been really about connecting like personally with concepts that may otherwise be assumed to be only intellectual and only connected to an intellectual realm. So threshold theorizing is kind of how Analese Keating situates her work. And Analese Keating wrote a great book in 2013, called transformation now, and that in transformation, now, Keating kind of outlines, three core tenants of interconnectivity, and that has kind of served as the framework for how we talk about identity and our connections. But it’s really about recognizing that, you know, our personal lived experiences are connected to ways of knowing and how we make meaning of the world and this idea of theorizing, and that there’s a lot of potential in exploring post oppositional perspectives.

Keith Edwards
Okay, what’s that mean?

Aeriel Ashlee
To the world? Sure. So, you know, so often, I feel like in popular culture In certainly higher education and student affairs, we have still and rely upon, kind of dichotomous understandings of us versus them, right, where social justice educators or we’re super problematic. We are, you know, people of color or white identified folks. And social theorizing suggests that that oppositional construction is, in some ways limited like certainly serves a purpose in some ways, recognizing the ways that categories have been established and power has been distributed in equitably by those categories. And that those categories and those oppositional dichotomies don’t necessarily serve us in terms of the liberatory visioning, we might hope for in the future. I think that’s the part that was most exciting for both Lisa and I connecting around these ideas of liminality. And what it might mean to suggest that there is possibility and thinking beyond the categories and structures

Keith Edwards
we’ve inherited, you’re reminding me I can just hear our colleague, Rachel Wagner, quoting Bell Hooks, binary thinking is dominator thinking. And it’s liminality. And this threshold theory is trying to live in the space in between and over that, till I say a little bit about the healing and transformative potential of that, that’s really exciting to me to see these in between spaces have the possibility, how can they foster healing and transformation?

Lisa Delacruz Combs
Yeah, absolutely. I was gonna mention that a little bit. So I wanted to add on to what Aeriel said a little bit first. So for me, and I think Aeriel would agree to like this book was really like an onto epistemological work for us, which means it was like, our way of knowing it the way Ariel, and I think, and no things is connected to our existence, and our way of being. So like, at the beginning, we introduced ourselves, we talked about existing beyond racial categories, both of us discuss that. And we often talk about, does that make us uniquely positioned to understand some of these complex ideas? So I’m gonna give an example of that I, myself am both Filipino and white. I am both of those things. And for some people that does not compute, they think that those should be different things. I feel like my experience as a multiracial person has allowed me to see that you can be happy and sad about something at the same time. It’s like it is made me predisposed to understand some of the complexities of those ideas. And that’s why this work is so connected to the way we are, which is really, and I’m hopeful that connects to your question, because I’m hopeful that for other folks that have a similar experience, where maybe they have a liminal identity, or maybe they are really interested in complexities that this validates that experience.

Keith Edwards
Yeah. So what I’m one of the things I do is coaching and when I’m coaching folks, we often talk about the difference between doing and being right. And if you want to do things, right, you make a list, and you check it off. That’s a great way We get the doing that. But when we’re talking about being, I often encourage a metaphor, right? How do you want to be in this conversation? That’s maybe rife with conflict? Well, what’s the metaphor, right? And there’s talk about analogies, identity analogies, some of those connections. And you also use the metaphor of bridging, and love that really simple example you give about racial and ethnic identity. And your understanding your experience of that also teaching you about just emotional intelligence and how to navigate the world. And that’s where I’m seeing the healing the transformative potential in so many different aspects of life.

Lisa Delacruz Combs
And Aeriel said earlier to when you think about something through a binary lens, so whether it’s it has to be this or that, that is inherently limiting, right? Because it’s so when you open that up to like, what, what if it was something different, or something new? I think that’s what creates that transformative healing. And just this idea of dreaming of something completely different.

Aeriel Ashlee
Yeah, I was just going to add on, I feel like in student affairs, there’s been a significant movement to recognize and to explore and embrace critical perspectives, right to recognize the ways that structures do not serve all students the same. And I think part of what is so appealing about this project, and for what, for me, what’s been so healing and personally liberatory, is to not then just stay with the ways in which structures fall short, or the ways in which drawing identity parallels or comparisons might be problematic. But then talking about well, then what can we do differently. So instead of just staying focused on the problem, it’s about imagining something else. And then through community, with Lisa and with our contributing authors, being able to write our experiences into existence in ways that perhaps previous conceptualizations and frameworks didn’t fully account for, and that has been truly transformational?

Keith Edwards
Well, let’s go. Let’s go to that. Then. Just for our audience, we have a flow and we have completely blown it apart just so you know, we’re freewill enough. So I want to know sounds to me, like you two had coffee, and a whole bunch of conversations, kind of constructed this idea and this concept and this exploration and this richness from your own lives and saying, Well, if we’re seeing this, and there’s value for us, that maybe others too, you put on a call, you get some people submitting things, your editors are reading these chapters and exploring. After you sort of had this idea, what did you learn from the authors who submitted like what was like, for you, Lisa so what did you learn?

Lisa Delacruz Combs
So much. So I was, I actually really appreciate it at the beginning, when you gave the example of like thinking about gender, and race. So for me, when I felt when I was writing about these ideas, and I was talking with Ariel about it, I would always say, I would use the word minoritized in my description of like, using this minoritized identity to help understand this other minoritized identity with compassionate caution, XYZ words. And something that I learned, we got a chapter that was contributed by Kyle and Brandon, and Miss Kyle, actually, and Brandon cash. And they wrote about this through the lens of understanding dominance. And I think that really opened up my eyes because I thought that identity interconnections could only apply to a minoritized experience. But what’s really interesting about their contribution is that they talk a little bit about how understanding whiteness may help them understand their male identity. And I was not thinking about and vice versa. Right? Yes, exactly. And I just thought that was so interesting, and I never would have thought to apply it that way. And I think that’s going to be really helpful for Student Affairs practitioners and for students that are in college right now. Another really interesting contribution, which I had already mentioned was Dr. Antonio Durant’s chapter, which he does a good job of situating this work, which Aeriel talked a little bit about this being post structural piece within the third wave of student development theory, which I think is really interesting and really important. And it’s another connection back to my dissertation, because I’m situating liminality, within the third wave as well. And so that was an important contribution. And then another one, Gina’s Gina Betancourt’s chapter about class. She discusses class stragglers, so students that may change their socioeconomic status across time. And that was something that really helped me understand like, oh, that’s another liminal identity of and that was something that I ended up including in my dissertation that I hadn’t thought about before. And this is just that some things I learned I learned from our authors. Yeah,

Keith Edwards
I connect with that last one is someone you is my very poor class background growing up is not my reality now. But I often think like it is. And I have to really worry, like, oh, I don’t need to be worried about that I don’t need to worry worried about getting the clothes on lines, we can save money on the dryer anymore, but I did for so many years. And so even though the situation changes some of the values and the mindset doesn’t, Aeriel what did you learn from the contributing? What else did you learn? Yeah,

Aeriel Ashlee
I mean, the pieces that Lisa mentioned, absolutely. I think another thing that I took away from genius chapter was thinking about like and centering constructs. So this is something that Elisa Ava’s, and her collaborators focused on in that beautiful new blue book about, oh, my gosh, I’m gonna butcher the name, but it’s like really

Keith Edwards
Rethinking Student Development.

Aeriel Ashlee
Thank you. And so they talked about the importance of constructs and thinking about and exploring students developmental on constructs instead of specific identities. And I think, this idea of disclosure as a construct, so something that students have to navigate as social class travelers, and thinking about when they might have to disclose their identity to be eligible for different scholarships, or financial financial aid, but how that is a similar process, a similar experience to students who are disclosing disabilities. And so thinking about, you know, for Student Affairs practitioners understanding and coming to think more complex ly about what disclosure means, can help us better serve multiple populations, rather than thinking about, Oh, I need to learn about this student population, and then this student population as like somehow very discrete and separate. So I think

Keith Edwards
I love this example, because I think it’s a really good one about how it’s similar but not the same, right? If we’re talking about disclosure of class background on a form, versus going to a disability office to get accommodations versus coming out, those are not the same at all. But there’s some similarities. And how do we do that? And then, again, this compassionate caution, what is similar what is not, and let’s slow down and make sure we’re really thoughtful about some of the new ones. Yeah, and that example,

Aeriel Ashlee
another author, who I think did a really powerful job of, of illustrating similarities across very different positionality is was her last chapter. So in that was talked about the unexpected connections that arose from her identity and our connections as an English as a second language speaker with someone who has a disability that impacts kind of his speech. And so now we’re drawing connections between English as second language learners or speakers with a person with disabilities. Again, not necessarily populations you would normally think about in community. But you know, through this chapter, I was invited some important considerations of how there may be similarities in those experiences. And then of course, compassionate caution and noting the the points of difference. The last chapter that I’ll just mention that I think was really a invaluable contribution to the overall project was Wendy Sasaki chapter so Wendy writes about an office that she is a part of at her institution that is really like an example of identity interconnections in practice. So what would it look like to structure Student Support Services with identity and our connections at the forefront? And thinking about how do we sometimes in our field problematically lump groups of students together? And how can we do usually says word from earlier nuance how we’re understanding how Asian American Pacific Islander Middle Eastern deci students may have similar but not the same experiences in college?

Keith Edwards
I think this is so helpful, because as you just said, sometimes we problematically group students together. And sometimes we’re problematically separating students out and saying these are very separate concerns when they have some potential for community and connection and coalition building and some of these things. And so again, we’re just coming back to the both and the liminality, the nuance and the paradox, and all of this. And I think as you pointed to critical perspectives, really exploring where the oppression rests, how does it play out? But this feels also also paying attention to that but also very generative, like what are the possibilities? Where’s the healing? What can we build? What can come from this? What learning can foster your subtitle points to some really practical kinds of things? With practice for very one of my faves? What would you offer as some key recommendations for practitioners who aren’t necessarily theorizing or exploring new ways of thinking but really are thinking about their office, their initiatives, their work with an individual student? What would you offer? Yeah,

Aeriel Ashlee
I would say, to start with the power of stories, that stories are incredibly profound as a way to facilitate connection across different perspectives. And let’s not just stop at where those similar stories kind of bubble up right like Lisa and I, we started with exploring some liberties and sharing stories about not fitting in or not feeling Asian enough. But we didn’t stop there. We then like continued to explore delve deeper into our stories and ask each other critical questions which helped us begin to unpack the ways in which we also have had, importantly, different experiences. I think something else to think about is the ways in which we are radically interrelated. So this might sound like woowoo to some people, but there’s a lot of, I think, you know, scholarship and academic evidence, but also for my own personal experience that like attests to, like who I am and how I move through through the world is inextricably connected to who you are Keith and to Lisa is, right. So it’s naive to think that we are very discrete and separate and autonomous beings. So in understanding that, that means that my positionality is directly related to others. So if someone else is experiencing oppression, might I be complicit in that? And can I explore and excavate the ways in which were radically interconnected? As a way to then think about how I could be more accountable to things I might not be conscious of, but be complicit in? And I think is something that is really practical kind of takeaway is this idea of listening with raw openness, which kind of goes back to some some of Anna Louise Keatings writing, but it’s really just as we share these stories, and as we kind of engage in conversations with colleagues and with students about the potential of identity interconnections, can we listen with the intent to be changed? By what we hear? Can we listen not just to wait for our turn to say like, oh, yeah, that’s like my experience, or or totally understand that that’s happened to me too. But can we listen with the intent of reflecting upon the ways in which we may have again, consciously or unconsciously contributed to someone else’s marginalization or oppression?

Keith Edwards
I really appreciate you bringing this up? Because I was, I think you modeled that, in what you were just saying, talking about sharing your stories. But then also meaning making those stories and asking each other questions and sifting those stories, it sounded to me as though both of you were sharing your stories, which are very personal, very connected to you. But then you weren’t overly tied to those stories, you are willing to challenge them and explore them. And maybe wonder, Am I not thinking about this the right way, or maybe that’s an old story, that’s no longer my current story. And that raw openness of being willing to be changed, I think, is a really great model. I love that you mentioned the interconnectedness. Because we are interconnected. And thinking of you and me as entirely separate is Western, it’s white, it’s male, though a lot of the world doesn’t think about it that way. And so it’s bringing that interconnectedness is bringing in a lot of Eastern traditions, a lot of indigenous ways of thinking and knowing about the world and a lot of collectivist culture ways. So I don’t think we need to apologize for that we can just lean right into it as a great way of modeling. So thank you for doing that. Lisa, what would you offer to those practitioners who are maybe listening to this on their lunch break in their office and have an afternoon full of meetings? What would you offer to someone,

Lisa Delacruz Combs
I think I would give tangible examples of how to actually apply compassionate caution in action and in practice. So I think it’s really important to really be attentive to how when we’re drawing these parallels and connections, how folks may be unintentionally contributing to the oppression of others. And with that awareness, being able to show up better. And some of those tools that Aeriel and I have discussed and we’ve written about a little bit further, it’s not necessarily in this book, but we’ve started to write about it together, is thinking through. Right, exactly. So thinking through solidarity. So it’s interesting, a lot of times when I share this concept with others, they bring up this piece of solidarity. So with that in applying compassionate caution, recognizing again, the commonalities across the differences. So Aeriel and I have shared this example multiple times. But how transracial adoptees and multiracial people have to figure out how to transgress race and mono racism, that may be a way that we can work in solidarity to disrupt that larger system of power. I think another piece is engaging, inspiring ally ship and knowing that this doesn’t just, it’s not a point of arrival, you don’t just pick up this book and read it. And then you’re good to go on your set. But rather, it’s an ongoing process that’s rooted in relational and cultural humility, which is another word that we’ve kind of used a little bit, but it’s understanding that in these conversations, the way I describe it to other students and to other people, is that I’m going to fall short because I’m a human. And because I don’t know, every single identity experience, so I’m going to fall short. But what does it mean? What do you do when you fall short and recognizing those and that’s actually a term that comes from nursing which is really interesting. And then also humility. Yeah. Cultural humility. Yeah. And then this last piece of thinking about intentional coalition building. So working across differences to facilitate some of these healing opportunities that we’ve discussed and recognizing that our liberation is connect connected, and specific and explicit examples of that are thinking through like even some of our networks, and some of our like knowledge communities within these larger umbrella student organizations. What does it mean to engage coalition building? And those are just another groups and organizations that were in? Same with student work?

Keith Edwards
Yeah, well, yeah, yeah. And I think those professional association subgroups are a lot like student ours, right? How do we how do we create space for people to have unique and different conversations, but also create space for those organizations to come together? I think we’ve got some great models of that, and some not so great models of that. Well, we are running out of time. So the podcast is called Student Affairs NOW. And we always wanted to end with just offering our guests an opportunity to share what do you what are you thinking about? You pointed to that you’re already writing other things that isn’t even in the book? What are you thinking about? Now? What are you pondering? Now? What are you troubling now might be related to this might be other things? And then also, if folks want to connect with you, what would be a great way for them to do that? So, Lisa, what do you what are you troubling now?

Lisa Delacruz Combs
Yeah, I think whenever I bring up this idea, I worry that folks will complete this drawing parallels piece, two things being exactly the same. And I know I’ve said this a few times. But I just want to emphasize that when we’re drawing identity or connections across between these systems of power, it does not assert sameness. But rather it invites this opportunity to look at these things with nuance and look at both the similarities and the differences and realizing that compassionate caution is key. And I think also I really something I’ve been thinking about since we started talking on the podcast was Aeriel, at the beginning, mentioning critical perspectives. And I want to talk a little bit, I wonder if other folks have had this experience. But when I was a master’s student at Miami, it was one of the first times that I was digging deep, intentionally digging deep into learning about systems of power, privilege and oppression. And I remember and I was there during 2016. So during the presidential election in 2016, and it became a really dark place for me, I remember just feeling really hopeless, like there was nothing I could do to help disrupt the systems of power. And oftentimes, I don’t know if I’ve ever told Aeriel this but I think about the Rihanna song, like we found love in a hopeless place. Doing this work with Aeriel. And finding like this post structural thinking really made me feel like I could find hope in the within the criticality. And the way that we describe it in the book is that we Aeriel and I both believe that post structural perspectives are a yes. And two critical approaches. If I could go back and change that now I would probably say like a yes, and dot, dot dot. With that, like that, that dot trying to create this image of like possibilities, like we’re hoping that this work, inspires hope, possibilities. And Aeriel always talks about it of like, this is hard work, but it doesn’t mean that it’s not worth it. And what does it look like to create something new beyond what exists? That’s created for and by people with minoritized identities rather than by those with dominant identities? And so that’s just what I’ve been thinking about since we’ve been on the call.

Keith Edwards
Yeah. I love that. That’s, I’m pretty sure that’s the first Rihanna mentioned on the podcast so far. And over almost two years later. Great to bring that in. I appreciate that. If people want to connect with you, how can they do that?

Lisa Delacruz Combs
Yeah, you can connect with me on LinkedIn, you could just look up my name, but also my social media platforms, all of them are Lcombs11.

Keith Edwards
Awesome. Awesome. And Aeriel, what are you troubling pondering noodling now? Well,

Aeriel Ashlee
Well actually, just hearing, Lisa talk made me think about how, in some ways right now and in the field of student affairs on higher education, it can feel like a really dark place. Right, we’ve got folks that are, you know, leaving the field, we are facing issues around recruitment and enrollment and graduate preparation programs not withstanding, you know, thinking about undergraduate and what the future of higher education is even going to look like. And so for me, one of the things that’s kind of coming up as we talk about the potential of identity and our connections in the field is just what it means to ideate with others to be in community. And rather than kind of get mired in the scarcity mindset that is so prevalent right now. And right. We all have moments. And I think that is that’s that’s real, that’s part of the process. But instead of getting stuck there to find folks that energize you To begin to imagine new possibilities, I think the reality of the state of higher education is that student affairs is evolving, right? As we have figured out providing services for students virtually, I mean, it’s just it’s continually changing. And so being open to that, and recognizing that, that that change might hold incredible possibilities for not just how we can continue to be relevant as Student Affairs educators, but also how we can begin to reimagine some of our practices and some of our ways of thinking that allows us actually to better support and serve and center those students that higher education was never built for in the first place. So I think that’s something that to me, is just trying to find hope and excitement. Even if it’s a time that can be certainly challenging.

Keith Edwards
Well basically pointed to this notion of merging sort of critical perspectives about what’s not working, what are oppressive systems. And we need that understanding. And then you’re also saying, and what do we want to create? Where what do we what are we hoping for? What do we want to build? What does liberation look like? And I think another dichotomy binary get into is if you’re talking about hope and liberation, then you’re not critical enough, right? And how do we create the liminality? Because if if, if you just have hope, without that critical understanding, then you’re really missing but if all you’re doing is pointing out oppression, everywhere it goes, and you’re not building something forward. where’s that going to lead us and so I love the both and that you’re bringing in here, the other thing I mentioned, and then you too, can I know you want to get in. We were talking before about the aspiring part and the messiness, and I’m gonna make mistakes and I’m human. It just pointed to me this, this notion of perfectionism being so disruptive. And as Temo pinpoints perfectionism is a component of white supremacy culture. So how does perfectionism you have to know all the right answers you have to have? Before you intervene? Before you speak up? Before you say something, you have to know you’re gonna get it right, and have all the answers. And we get in this stuck in this, again, Western white, male dominant way of knowing and being the expert and having all the answers before we dabble experiment. Try some of that. Yeah,

Aeriel Ashlee
I think this was something that crossed my mind earlier and relates exactly to what you were just saying, Keith, around perfectionism. It makes me think of Carol Dweck ‘s work around growth mindset, fixed mindset. And I think for better or worse, even though, you know, we are educators by trade and training, oftentimes, there’s this pressure, whether it’s internalized or social, that especially when it comes to issues of social justice or ally ship, it’s gotta be perfect, or you’re gonna get called out, right, like, you’re gonna cause harm. And I think, you know, there is some utility in exploring, like, what does it mean to maintain that perspective of humility that like, I can be trying really hard as an ally, and I can know that I’m going to fall short, and that when others choose to hold me accountable, that actually is a gift. Right? They don’t have to do that they could dismiss me or write me off. And so leaning into the possibilities of what a growth mindset can mean, as we think about connecting with each other, and then better showing up for one another.

Keith Edwards
Well, and waiting until you have all the answers, and you’ll always get it right is a wonderful way to not take any responsibility and not take any action with really good justification or rationale. Exactly. Which I’ve done a timer to. Lisa, what do you want to add here?

Lisa Delacruz Combs
Oh, well, i i You said it perfectly earlier. I just wanted to add that oh, let’s

Keith Edwards
not say that. I said it messily and you’re like, Yeah, let’s take that P word out of it. Absolutely.

Lisa Delacruz Combs
You’re right after we just talked about perfectionism. Um, but I was gonna add earlier when you were talking about how I like how you talked about how criticality and post structuralism can coexist. So I wanted to add that when we talk about post structuralism, that’s not to negate that systems of power exists. I think that’s another misconception about post structuralism is that when we talk about these postdoctoral perspectives, it means that we are negating that there’s racism, or we’re negating that there’s no power, and that’s exactly what we’re trying not to say. And that’s another piece that I would want to leave with listeners is that post structuralism, post structuralism doesn’t mean that we are not acknowledging those systems of power. It means that we’re saying yes, they exist. And here’s how we want to move forward.

Keith Edwards
Well, as long as we’re name dropping, we’re this whole conversation here. We’re having as we conclude, this reminded me of Chris Wren stock. I think it was an ASHE about critical perspectives and generative thinking. All right, and really appreciate that. Arielle, where might folks who want to connect with you be able to connect with you?

Aeriel Ashlee
Yes, LinkedIn and email are usually the best. I used to be on social media but I act surely have removed myself from social media just for personal wellness. So old school for you.

Keith Edwards
Good for you. Good for you. Well, thank you both so much. This has just been amazing and terrific and really appreciative of the conversation. I’m really appreciative of the book. Go out and grab it. It’s a it’s a really wonderful and fun read with all of the stories that you all have mentioned. I also want to thank our sponsors for today’s episode Stylus and Symplicity. Stylus is proud to be a sponsor for the student fairs now podcasts browse their student affairs, diversity and professional development titles at styluspub.com. You can use the promo code SANOW for 30% all of their books plus free shipping including identity interconnections, which we’ve been talking about. You can also find stylists on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, LinkedIn, and Twitter @styluspub. And Symplicity is the global leader in student services technology platforms with state of the art technology that empowers institutions to make data driven decisions specific to their goals. A true partner to the institution simplicity supports all aspects of student life including but not limited to Career Services and Development, Student Conduct and well being student success and accessibility surfaces. To learn more, visit symplicity.com or connect with them on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn. A huge shout out to our producer, Nat Ambrosey who does all the work behind the scenes to make us look and sound good. And if you’re listening today and not already receiving our weekly newsletter, please visit our website at student affairsnow.com. Scroll to the bottom of the homepage and add your email to our MailChimp list to be the first to learn about our new episodes. While you’re there, check out our archives. And Keith Edwards. Thanks again to our fabulous guests today. Thank you so much for the conversations, the insights and everything that you’re sharing and your great new book to those who are watching listening. Please make it a great week. Thank you.

Direct link to purchase Identity Interconnections

ACPA Developments article on Aeriel & Lisa’s experience publishing with ACPA Books

Direct link to AnaLouise Keating’s (2013) Transformation Now! (which informed our theoretical framework)