Meg Evans
And I would also argue to, you know, with whatever everything that my colleagues said, reminding administrators reminding other colleagues that you know, activism is a form of love. Activism is a form of making our campuses better. And so helping change that narrative from activists, students, faculty, and staff as troublemakers to folks engaging in love for their campus and making it more accessible. And if we can change the narrative and change that story, we can get so many more CO conspirators and supporters to help move initiatives forward.

Heather Shea
Alex C. LangeWelcome to Student Affairs NOW the online learning community for Student Affairs educators. I’m your host Heather Shea. Today’s panel includes four of the five authors of this book, identity based Student Activism, Power and Oppression on College Campuses. As we launched the fall semester, student activists will once again as they have for decades resume their work to address racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism, and other forms of oppression. As someone who works alongside and support student activist in my day job, I’m super excited to talk about the ways that campus administrators can both reflect upon their work and beliefs about student activists, and consider new ways to improve relationships. Before I get to introducing the four panelists joining me today I’m going to share more about our podcasts and today’s sponsors. Student Affairs NOW is the premier podcast and learning community for thousands of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We hope you’ll find these conversations make a contribution to the field and are restorative to the profession. We released new episodes every week on Wednesdays, find us at StudentAffairsNow.com on YouTube or anywhere you listen to podcasts. Today’s episode is sponsored by LeaderShape. Go to leadershape.org to learn how they can work with you to create a just caring and driving world. This episode is also sponsored by Stylus visit styluspub.com and use the promo code sa now for 30% off and free shipping. Stay tuned to the end of the podcast for more information about each of our sponsors. As I mentioned, I’m your host Heather Shea My pronouns are she her and hers and I am broadcasting from the ancestral ancestral traditional and contemporary lands of the three fires confederacy of Ojibwe, Ottawa and Potawatomi peoples, also home to the campus of Michigan State University where I work. Michigan State University resides on land seated in the 1819 Treaty of Saginaw. Welcome, Chris, Steven, Alex Meg, I am so excited for our conversation today. As you each introduce yourself, tell us a little bit more about who you are, what your roles are and your institutions. And I’ll kick it off with Chris, welcome.

Chris Linder
Thank you, Heather. It’s good to be here. I’m excited to reconnect with his colleagues who we started this project many many years ago and now we’re all in different places than we were when we started this project. So it’s fun to reconnect in this way. My name is Chris Linder I use she her pronouns and I am coming to you today from the homelands of the peoples, which is also where the University of Utah is. I work as an associate professor in the Department of Educational Leadership and Policy at the U and I also get to direct the Polsky center for violence prevention at the U. My research has focused for a while I was a student affairs practitioner for 10 years prior to becoming faculty. And so a lot of my research as a faculty member stems from my experience as a practitioner and working really closely with students. This project definitely being one of those we were talking before we started recording that one of the things that I try really hard to do in all of my research is always have practitioners on the research team because I think that student affairs practitioners know what to do with the findings in ways that I don’t know anymore, because I’m so far removed from my practitioner days. And so I just think that’s largely where this work comes from is trying to make our campuses better for our students and for our, for me, making it better for our student affairs professionals, because there’s very high turnover in that arena. And I think we need to do a better job of taking care of folks working directly with students.

Heather Shea
Thank you for that, Chris. I 100% agree. Stephen, welcome. Welcome to the podcast.

Stephen John Quaye
Thanks, Heather. Good afternoon, everyone. Good to see all of you. And much like Chris said, anytime I get a chance to, you know, share space with these folks, I always say yes. And so it’s been a really fun collaborative experience that has extended for many years. So it keeps going as we as we see today. So thanks for the invitation Heather to share some space. So I’m Stephen Quaye, I use he him his pronouns. And I’m dialing in today from Columbus, Ohio, which is the traditional homelands of the Shawnee, Miami, and Delaware nations and I honor and just spec, the digitus peoples that are connected to this land. I also want to acknowledge the for slavery of black people who built what much of what we call the United States of America. So I just want to remind folks about that as well, too. So I professor at The Ohio State University, and I teach courses on dialogues on qualitative research. Often when people ask me what I do, the first line I often say is I, I really try to understand and help people talk about heart issues in ways that are productive. Things like privilege, power, oppression, racism, sexism, and the like. So that’s how my research started. That’s really what gives me the most joy is just really being in space with people, watching them struggle to talk about these issues, but still, still contributing and doing it even when it’s hard. I just really believe in the power of dialogue to promote change in our society. So anytime I get a chance to do that I’m on board. And then the student activism work has also been my pride and joy, just really interacting with student activists to understand more about their struggles, their experiences, all the things that we’ll talk about today has been like the second line. And then more recently, the work I’ve been doing is around this concept of racial battle fatigue, which is really around the exhaustion that people of color are experiencing from racism, and then the ways in which it impacts our psychological, physiological and emotional well being. And then more specifically, trying to figure out how we support people of color in healing from racial battle fatigue. So that is a bit about me. And again, I’m delighted to be here today and share space with everyone. So thanks for the invitation, Heather.

Heather Shea
Yeah, thanks so much. I appreciate it. Alex Lang Welcome back. I think this is trip number three to the Student Affairs now soundstage.

Alex C. Lange
It is happy to be here Heather. Like Chris even said I am over the moon to be with these folks here today. We have a lot of fun together, while we talk about very serious topics together around student activism. So again, my name is Alex Lange. Pronouns are they them there. I am, I’m dialing in today from the traditional ancestral homelands of the Arapaho, Cheyenne. And I think when we’re talking about student activism, it’s really important to draw attention to the ways native folks, in some ways were the first activists on this land right in thinking about how the federal government over time continued to not honor treaties not on our land, and how many of these folks have sort of been having these fights for centuries, right? On this land that we’re on. I am an assistant professor and program coordinator for higher education leadership program here at Colorado State University, Fort Collins. Before I was assistant professor, I worked in a variety of functional areas on college campuses, like Meg most recently, and identity based centers and work, which is part of the invitation that led me to the study, right, like, as Chris was saying, right, invited practitioners, and that was what I was, and still think I’m a real practitioner at heart, even as I teach doc students. And I want to make sure this sort of say that this is a really great example of a research team that honors both theory and practice, right. And I think Stephen and Chris, have both modeled the way with that with this team and this project. So I’m really excited to talk about all of that today. With these folks. My research, most recently on I’m not coordinating a program and is focused on Longitudinal Study of transgender students experiences on college campuses, that national study has will now be in its fifth year this year, which is kind of wild to think about, still have some participants who made it through COVID and the study, so it’s great. So looking forward to talk talking a bit about student activism.

Heather Shea
Thanks so much, Alex. Meg, welcome to Student Affairs now.

Meg Evans
Thanks, Heather. Thanks for having us. And it’s great to be in space with all of you again. My name is Meg Evans, any and all pronouns work for me most quickly respond to they/them. I am zooming in today from the Sunny, still sunny Gulf Coast, which is the traditional ancestral homelands of the creek Muskogee and Pensacola people and nations. I currently serve as the Director of Educational Research at a justice space educational consulting org. We used to be based out of Atlanta. Now we’re everywhere. So I am everywhere. And I’m also doing some adjunct facilitation at the University of West Georgia. I worked in student affairs like Alex mentioned, I worked in student affairs as a practitioner for about 15 years most recently. In identity based spaces, I also did almost a decade in housing. So I feel like I’ve earned my stripes in student affairs being on call 24/7 for a decade. And I also have always worked as a student and staff identified as an activist and been a thorn in the side, a loving thorn in the side of many an administrator on campus. So I believe in student activism, I believe student activists have been kind of at the forefront of so many of our justice movements in this country, still are and will continue to be, but are often kind of placed in this trope of being troublemakers. And so I think I was very excited to be a part of the study, and certainly work with the scholars here and also TJ, to tell the story of activists and how we as campus administrators have failed activists, and what we could do to better serve them knowing that our campuses are inherently better because of the change that student activists demand. Prior to my time in student affairs, I worked as a middle school teacher, that was a wild ride, I was an emergency medical technician, also a wild ride, and I played professional football, also a wild ride, but my favorite role is actually being a parents to my four and a half year old son. He is black, multiracial. And so everything I do my scholarship included is to create a better future for him.

Heather Shea
Thanks so much, Mike. I bet the emergency management Hall Director football like all that plays in at some point, right? Yeah.

Meg Evans
Yep. True. True. I can tackle the student if I needed to, I haven’t. And just knowing that I think made me better at my job.

Heather Shea
I love it. That’s fantastic. Well, it’s great to meet you. Great to have all of you here. And yes. Also, TJ Stewart, who wasn’t able to join us today is the fifth author on this book. So shout out to TJ for all the great work they do. So let’s talk about how the book came to be. Steven, tell me a little bit about before there was a book, there was a hashtag activism on campus, people were posting about sessions at conferences, how did this come together and result in a study in this text?

Stephen John Quaye
Yeah, so I appreciate this question. Because one of the things that we talk a lot about as a group and is throughout the book is the importance of history. So, you know, history often repeats itself. So I just think this question helps us get at that a bit. So I think I’ll start with this sort of like adage that, you know, the more things change, the more that they don’t, as well. So even though, you know, it’s been since, like, 2015, is when we started this work, like we see a lot of the same themes, you know, seven years later. So like Chris and I, the impetus for this is we just started having conversations about, you know, the police murders of black and brown people, as well as just increased awareness around sexual violence on college campuses. And then just noting, noticing from our own experiences, as we were looking at these news reports, whether it’s in places like Inside Higher Ed, or the Chronicle of Higher Education, or even more globally on like, you know, NBC, CNN, etc. Just, we noticed that a lot of the reports were around how the extent to which, like campus administrators are really struggling to know what to do with these, like student activists, right. Like they’re creating these demands, they’re protesting, they’re picketing, they’re occupying the president’s office, like all these sorts of like news reports around student activists responding to just wanting to live more fully in their minoritized bodies and administrators are struggling with knowing like, what do we do with these folks? Right, like, how do we like essentially, how do we like get rid of them like so it was this very negative view of seeing them as troublemakers as pests, like Meg alluded to this notion of troublemakers earlier. And so Chris, and I just wanted to understand that like, from the perspective of student activists themselves, so rather than just viewing them as like troublemakers, or just listening to what these news reports, were saying, like, what if we actually like spend some time talking to student activists, and then specifically, those who hold minoritized identities? So queer people,

Stephen John Quaye
you know, people of color students who are disabled, right, like what, like, how would they describe their experiences as activists, and then how would they talk about their relationships with administrators? And so prior to Chris becoming a faculty member, she had worked for 10 years in student affairs. I had not had full time student affairs work experience. And so we wanted to invite folks like Meg like Alex like TJ folks who We’re in identity based centers. Because we really to Chris’s point from earlier, we really wanted to also center the perspectives of those who are actually working with student activists in those spaces. Because I think it’s often those of us who are faculty. Like we can be elitist at times and think we know what’s best, right without actually talking to the people who are doing the work on the ground. So, you know, from Chris and I, our conversations were like, what, like, what an innovative way to actually like, bring those perspectives to the forefront. And so we invited a group of grad students. At the time, Chris was at the University of Georgia. I was at Miami University. So we invited a group of grad students who we were who were working with us. And, you know, I think Chris is chuckling, in part because she and I often had this like, back and forth around I wanted this the study to be much smaller, like the people who invited, Chris was more like, Let’s invite everyone, right? And so at times, like, it wasn’t like, you know, eight, nine, ten, grad students. So it became, in my opinion, unwieldy at times. But I think the benefit of that was, we got to get a lot of different like perspectives in the, in the, in the midst of trying to make sense of these data in collecting them. And it was just, I think, a beautiful experience of like, how do you make sense of these various perspectives that you have. So I will admit, in hindsight, that it was a smart decision, even though in executing it at times, I think it was a, it was a struggle. And so, you know, like, so out of those grad students who we worked with, Meg TG and Alex were the three who, you know, stuck around long enough for us to then more of these ideas into into this book, which is what we have here today. And so, for me, I think the the joy of this process was just the different ways that folks could come in and out. And then their contributions are still, I think, reflected in this book as well. And then you get to see, I think, just the trajectory, the trajectory of student activism. And so again, what I love about this, to bring it back full circle is we could have written this book now, seven years later, and some of the same issues like are still present around activist simply just wanting to exist in their minoritized identities and wanting to have better relationships with administrators who understand their voices understand why they’re upset, understand why they’re wanting change to happen, and wanting just space for, for them to just feel heard and validated. So, so yeah, so that was that’s the origin story of the book. And, and it’s just been, I think, a joy to seeing this work come to fruition?

Heather Shea
Well, it’s a fabulous book and a great resource, I think, because of the ways that you talk about practitioners and recommendations, which we’re going to get to, as well. Alex, I want to turn it to you, what is what is identity based activism, let’s do a couple of key terms alternative to Meg also, what is identity based activism? And how is it different from other forms of activism? And which identity are we really talking about here? social group identities, personal identities, tell me more.

Alex C. Lange
Totally. DL Stuart once offered, and a talk that I was in. I was I was listening to the talk of DL takut. And gol talked about identities are differences that make a difference, right in people’s lives. And so what we’re often talking about with identity based activism, is sort of the social group memberships around race, gender, class, sexuality, ability, or disability in these ways, we sort of formally I think, write it in the book is something like organizing, resisting and engaging with issues directly related to identity action. Because if the sort of popular image of student activism and sort of popular media is things like folks who are protesting against climate change in the 90s, and my gosh, were they the ones who are really right, early on, right? Or we think about like SNCC, the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, back in the 60s and early 70s, right, these groups that sort of organized themselves around a pause first, versus a sort of social group membership. And what we thought what we noticed when we sort of read the gamut of literature on student activism, which there is a good set, there’s much more now than there used to be. There is a really good higher education Handbook Chapter that my colleagues wrote sort of summarizing that scholarship over the past 20 years. But part of that we noticed was there was a lack of attention to the sort of social positions of the activists themselves. There wasn’t as much attention to sort of black activist organizing around right system for instance, or queer students organizing around homophobia and queer phobia and transphobia on college campuses, it anything that Stephen Merchant have in campus climate literature, more than it did in the activist literature. And there are some folks. And part of the reason we sort of take the identity based activism lens is because we see the folks who have minoritized identities, having a different stake in this activism, right. It’s not just about sort of working on behalf of others, which many of them cite in our study, right? A lot of them say, I’m doing this to the people after me don’t have to do this, right. If you want a popular example of this, I’m a big brother, fan, and probably shouldn’t be. But last season, there was a Alliance in that house called the cookout, and it was six black players that guarantee that there would be a black winner for the first time in Big Brother. And part of the reason they talk about sort of abandoning their personal strategies in the game of Big Brother, is that they wanted you to your black players to be able to play the game, right without having to worry about their race and navigating whiteness in that house. And I think it’s really similar for our student activists in this setting, right. And I think too, we are really specific about calling the student activists, but a lot of them in the study wouldn’t define themselves as that right, they thought of as their form of labor, to future generations of students. And so in the book we have a number of are in the larger study, rather, in the book, too. There are a number of students who have minoritized racial identities, gender identity, sexual identities, disability identities, the overlap, right, these aren’t just one and done folks, right, that we’ve they focus on a single axis of oppression. And so that’s really what we mean by student based identity based activism versus maybe like cause based activism, right? We’re all happy to study the experiences of majorities activists who want to align themselves with minoritized causes, but we wanted to intentionally uplift minoritized voices on college campuses in this study for that reason.

Heather Shea
Thank you so much. I think that’s really helpful to kind of get that grounding. Meg, What other terms should we make sure the audience is aware of before we before we go on people who definitely who don’t necessarily work in this space of identity centers? Yeah,

Meg Evans
absolutely. We really talk about four terms a lot throughout the entire book, and just in in the study in general, identity based centers, dominant identities, minoritized, identities and power, and they all kind of go together. But when we talk about identity based centers, we’re talking about centers, offices, departments, really just spaces that are specifically centering minoritized student identity. So that could be multicultural centers for bipoc students, LGBT Resource Centers, Women and Gender centers. These spaces often serve as a place for resource gathering, advocacy, education, both for folks who hold identity. And often for folks who don’t, you can think of things like safe zone or safe space, right that we see on the vast majority of campuses. These spaces also served as a place of refuge for so many minoritized students, particularly, I’m thinking about multicultural centers for students of color, BIPOC students on PWI campuses, right? Having worked in LGBT spaces, and a couple of campuses, I had so many students come in and say, This is the only place I can be me, right? I’d have students come in and change clothes to so they could express their gender identity in a way that felt good to them, and then change their clothes back before they go out on campus, right? So often these spaces are one if not the only place that that students can feel who they are, right. And one, one thing that we talk about quite a bit in, in this scholarship that I don’t think is talked about often is staff and faculty who serve as the staff or the advisors in these spaces. Often these are folks going back to what Alex said. But these are folks often not always, but often who hold the same minoritized identity as the students they serve. And so whatever is happening on campus, whether that’s, you know, a racist, homophobic, transphobic ableist policy that’s implemented by the university, or something that has happened, not only does it impact the students that identity based staff are serving, but it also impacts us as folks who hold like identity, right. And so I think it’s just an additional nuance that when folks who work in identity based centers were, you know, asked to support advocates, and kind of hold students who hold minoritized identities, and also we’re experiencing it and that nuance often isn’t talked about in scholarship. And also the the consequences of advocacy tend to be higher for folks who hold minoritized identity in that way as well. So we’ve already said this word 14,000 times was minoritized. So I might as well define it. But we use minoritized. Like a lot of folks use, marginalized, but we use it to refer to the identities in which a person experiences systemic oppression or lack of access. Lots of folks, like I said, use, marginalized. But in this text, we use it to recognize people with power, often those who hold dominant identities, who are the ones that enact the oppression on other people, this doesn’t just kind of oppression doesn’t magically happen. It doesn’t happen in a bubble, rather, there are actors to it. And so by using minoritized, we try to highlight that there, there are systems of power in play that, you know, hold some folks in minoritized identity, it signifies the kind of social construction and under representation of subordination in systems of power, including on college and university campuses. On the flip side of that dominant identities, refers to identities in which a person experiences privilege, or systemic access to resources. cisgender men have access to gender privilege, white folks access to racial privilege, you get it. And then finally, power, which is tied to dominant identities in minoritized. identities, I would argue, but power, you know, impart borrowed from Beverly Tatum and certainly from the power conscious framework that Chris is going to talk about in just a moment. But in this text, we define power as access to the ability to influence or significantly alter one’s own life or someone else’s power can be tied to social identity. So think dominant identities and privilege, right. And it can be tied to positional identity, think administrators, university leaders, etc. Often, I would argue that those two are tied together. Social and positional, but I digress. But I think those are the four terms that we talk about a ton throughout the book, we actually have them highlighted in the beginning of the book, too. But I appreciate the the time to just break those down a little bit further. Thanks, Heather.

Heather Shea
Yeah, thanks, Meg. So Meg just mentioned this idea of the power conscious framework. And I think it’s really hard to talk about activism if you’re not recognizing the way that power plays a role. So Chris, can you talk about this, then there’s a visual in the book, we’ll link it in our show notes, which I think is really particularly useful. And, and a little bit about its its origin story, too, as as a model.

Chris Linder
Yeah. And shout out to Meg. Meg is actually the person who made the visual representation of the framework. So thanks, Meg. But yeah, the part is interesting. So I was approached many years ago by a publisher who was doing this like series of books called the great debates, and she was like, Hey, can you do one on sexual assault on college campuses? And I was like, I mean, it was like, the biggest sense of imposter I’ve had in my career, I was like, let me know, I can’t do that. But eventually, I decided I’m gonna give it a shot. Right. Like my, my role, I believe strongly in trying to contribute to the conversation, not thinking that at my contribution is the be all end all. But it’s just something to put into a room for other people to respond to and hopefully build on and draw from so. And this was also happening around the same time that many black women were starting to call attention to the fact that folks in student affairs were misusing and appropriating intersectionality theory. And I was like, Yeah, we do. Like, and I started working on why are we over relying on intersectionality theory intersectionality was originally designed to center black women, women of color, women from low income communities. That was the intention. And then in student affairs were like, Oh, my God, this works so well for helping people understand all their identities and all that stuff. But we were totally co-opting in ways that didn’t pay attention to the power piece. That was the original intention of intersectionality. And I didn’t want to be another white feminist co-op intersectionality. Just in place of I think what we were doing, I think it was well intended, but many of us were using intersectionality to call attention to multiple identities, and trying to talk about power. And I was like, How can we come up with another tool to talk about identity and power without co-opting something that wasn’t originally intended just for that. And so this framework largely emerged from that reading lots of stuff about critical consciousness, of course, reading about intersectionality, thinking about power, thinking about the ways that identity and power were connected, and so that’s where the framework came from the base of the framework, or if there are three factors nation so power is omnipresent. Power is everywhere. Power and identity are inextricably doubly linked. And then identity is socially constructed. So we’ve made up all this stuff, but it still has significant consequences on our lives. Six tenants of the framework, really lean into the first three are really at the individual level. So really thinking about what’s my role and interrupting power and being cognizant of power. So the first one is self awareness of figuring out who we are, how we show up in spaces, really understanding our own context and history. So I think the pieces that most of us are trying to do around acknowledging land and labor acknowledgments. Some, it’s, it’s a struggle, because we don’t always do a great job of understanding why we’re doing that, but becomes performative. And so the second tenet is really digging into our own context and history trying to understand in the context that I’m in now, how did we get to where we are. And then the third one is reflecting on our own behaviors based on that self awareness and the understanding of history. And then the second three tenets are really starting to push people into working in, in systems. So I think sometimes there’s this false dichotomy in social justice work between individuals and systems. People are always like, well, it was systemic issue. No, it’s an individual issue. Well, that’s why individuals make up systems. So it’s both together. And so the second three are really about that. So being interrupting system to domination whenever we can, figuring out the role of power, so really paying attention to how is power showing up in this space, it’s so subconscious for most of us all the time. And then it really gets in no way. I mean, I think about as I’ve been in a career in higher ed for 20 years now, unfortunately, some undergraduate students are really intimidated by me. And that impacts our relationship. It’s not a form of power I want access to, but it’s a former power form of power, I do have access to that I have to navigate that. And then the solidarity. tenant is really about working together on issues of oppression. So I think especially in the sexual violence world, there’s a bit of paternalism happening where we tell survivors, you can’t do this yet, because you’re not ready. You haven’t done your own healing yet. And so we dictate who gets to do what it could very well be like the other parts of social justice work as well. But for me, it really came up a lot. And then there’s also some dictating like, white people can do this, or can’t do this around issues of racism, straight people can do this or can’t do that. And so trying to let go of some of that gatekeeping, and really think about what are the contributions I should be making? When should I step up? When should I step back? And, and be mindful that it’s different for different people, right, like some people of color, or like, Chris, please say something. Other people of color in the same room might be like, shut up, white lady, we got this, right. And I have to be okay, with navigating all that complexity and not making it about me, and not trying to figure out how do I be the good or the right weight kind of white person. And so I think that’s where that last minute comes from is around, figuring the solidarity is about figuring out how all of our, all of the issues of oppression are connected together, and, and being intentional about what our role is, and then trust.

Heather Shea
Thank you so much for that background. I think the model is great. And I it’s awesome to hear its origin as well, because I feel like working in women’s center work our our paths have kind of over laughed. And that’s a constant conversation that we’re having. So Christine, with you, I am really curious about the historical context. Maybe we could talk about that briefly. I know we did a little bit of it earlier. But I’m really interested in how over time institutions of higher education have both worked alongside and encouraged students some forms of student activism as of as a form of social change, but also, in some other ways, penalize student activists like, you know, why is why is there this? And maybe it’s all about identity, but I am really curious about that. Over time. How have activist been treated?

Chris Linder
Well, I think first of all, everyone should read Eddie Cole’s work in this area. He does a really good job looking at the history, I would say, we barely touch on it. In this book, we do what Stephen was mentioning earlier, and try like, we tried to look at what’s been done before us so that we can build on and contribute and honor the work of the people who came before us and so but in terms of the history, like Stephen was saying earlier, like even in just the seven years a lot of these In the same in 40 years, these demands are the same. There are a couple of pieces out there that have taken demands from black students from the 60s until now and done an analysis and they are exactly the same. And so I think that’s part of the historical context that we’re working in. And I think the other thing that we have learned about the institution’s role in that is that it’s intentional and part of institutions, right, there was an article in the Chronicle of Higher Education that was basically how to deal with student activists. And one of their tips was to just wait until like, administrators are literally being told, just wait, they’ll go away. And so it’s an intentional construction on the part of institutions of higher education to just wait them out, which is why history just keeps repeating itself. It’s very much how oppression works. But it’s, it’s set up that way. So I think that’s part of it. The history pieces, the other pieces that stands out to me from the historical context. So I do remember reading a piece specifically about the development of the LGBT resource center at UGA. In the 1970s, there was a group of gay men who organized the dance a gay, a big gay dance is what they called it at UGA. And I was just talking with a colleague about this yesterday, and I just read it somewhere. Oh, there was an yeah, so about the ways that this can also be a space of joy. I think we often talk about activism, especially related to a passion of like, it’s resistance, and it’s exhausting. And it is all of those things. And also, the community building that comes with it is a can be the source of joy. And I think that article I remember reading about the big gay dance at UGA was exactly that for those students. And so I think it’s important that as we look back historically, and even contemporarily, we find the both and I don’t want to, I don’t want to do the toxic positivity thing where we’re like, it’s not that it’s talking about students are dealing with significant oppression. And in the midst of their resistance, they’re also building community and finding ways to have joy with each other in those processes.

Heather Shea
And finding a sense of belonging, right. I mean, I think that’s the other part is, you know, identity spaces, you know, kind of being that home, but also the place where you can find your co conspirators

Alex C. Lange
Are there before we go to the next question? Yeah. A little bit to what Chris offer? Yeah, I think too, like, I think Chris is the one who taught me this in our environments class, when I was a master’s student was, we have whole offices dedicated to things like service learning, which are often forms of sort of institutionally sanctioned social change. Like I think of all the times that like, every end of year report I read were like, students contributed X amount of hours to the community this way, and that they save this much dollars, because like, that’s what we need to quantify service to money. It’s really weird. But all this to say that when institutions are the source of ire, they dodge, right. But any other institution in society that higher education institutions don’t like, right, whether that’s faculty, whether that students, we’re fine going after those things, but we do not like it. People who have deep respect for Institute institutions of higher education, primarily, upper level administrators think that their institution is off limit, but every other institution in society is, is on limit, or on limit. Is that would you say that or it’s fair game? It’s fair game. That’s what it is.

Heather Shea
Thanks for adding that, Alex. I agree. And I remember reading some of those early pieces, I think, from Chris actually were because I was working in an environmental Living Learning Community at that point in time. And I’m like, Oh, my gosh, a environmentalist are very white. But also they’re fighting this thing that’s very external, right? And the institutions like yes, we need more of this. Super helpful. So speaking of students and the work that they’re putting into this, there’s an entire chapter in here about student labor as our student activism as labor. Stephen, can you talk a bit about this and about how student activists are both heralded you know, this work is important, but also trivialized, called upon to like, you know, be the spokesperson, but then pretty isolated. So like, what are the effects of putting labor upon student activists and and how do institutions benefit from activist labor?

Stephen John Quaye
Yeah, so I really appreciate this question. So I taught a student activism class at Ohio State twice now and this concept is the concept that like, really like drives it home for students in the class. And to me, it’s the one that I could I mean, we could spend the rest of the time just on this alone. We won’t, but we could. And so I think the thing that I’ll just start with is, so one of the participants in our study Teresa, I think they’re captures this really well. So Teresa said, a student should have the privilege of just being a student. So I’ll just repeat that a student should have the privilege of just being a student. That’s also like the, the beginning title of one of the articles we wrote that’s around this notion of student activism as labor. And so what Theresa is getting at essentially, is that student activists, so if we think of the word student activist, right, the word that comes before activist is student, right? And so like, we like those of us who teach graduate students, like, we always say to them, like your your priority as a graduate student is the student part, right? Like not your assistantship, not these other pieces. So similarly, for student activists, like the activism is not should not be their priority. It’s the student part. Right. And so I think that emphasizing that is really important, because like what Theresa is essentially encapsulating is that notion of student activism as labor. And more specifically, it’s not that it’s not just that it’s labor, but it’s unpaid labor. So the folks that you know, Alex and Meg have been talking about those who work in identity based centers, faculty, college presidents, the provost, like administrators, like all of those folks, we are the paid employees at our institutions, it is our responsibility to be doing the work to support student activists. But because many of us are not doing that, or we’re failing to do that, student activists step in in order to correct and draw attention to those to those areas. But again, they’re not compensated for that, right. And so I think that notion of it being unpaid is like really important. So let me just share some examples of like, what this looks like of like the uncompensated part. So for example, student activists are calling out calling out attention through like awareness raising events. So I mentioned like the protesting the picketing all those pieces, those pieces like that’s like an example of of that, right of like drawing attention to it. I’m forgetting the name of the of a woman who wanted a sexual assault survivor with the mattress, right, like carrying literally like using my carrying the mattress as like a protest to illustrate the ways in which institutional leaders were not addressing sexual assault on campus. Right. So I think that’s like one, one example. Secondly, we’ve talked about this notion of like writing demands, right? So Chris mentioned, like, the demands from the 70s are the same as they are now like, like, students, students of color, and particularly, for activists keep saying, we need more faculty and staff of color, right, like that is something that they keep saying, so that is one demand that is consistent, like they are writing demands to illustrate like what needs to happen on campus. Educating their peers about oppression is another one, right? So they are spending time in their classes and outside of their classes, sharing stories to their peers with dominant identities about this is what oppression is, like, these are the things that I have experience as a disabled person, as a queer person, as a person of color. Right? So that’s another one. And then I think, lastly, like, oftentimes, institutions will then sometimes co-op, right student movements for their benefit. So when it benefits the institution to highlight something that a student activist has done, like they’re all about it, right. But then when it’s not to their benefit, well, these are pests are troublemakers. Right. So I think that’s another way that notion of like student activism as labor happens. And so, you know, some some folks might say, well, you know, it’s, it’s helpful for a student activist to, to do this right. And so, like, and I think when they say that, these are some of the other pieces that we’ve talked about, about like, what this labor is contributing. So one of the things that student activists do that is, quote unquote, helpful is that they’re essentially providing, like free sort of campus climate assessments for their institution. So like many of us, you know, we do these campus climate assessments, right. And what happens like the report sits somewhere in some library, and nothing actually happens, right? And so we know what the issues are like student activists have been telling us for decades what the issues are, right and so institutions are benefiting from knowing where the gaps are in our services, right, the things that we’re doing that are not living up to what we say we’re about in our espoused values. So that’s like one sort of like thing that activists are also doing that, again, is like unpaid labor. And so I’ll just end with like, just talking through some of the costs and consequences of all of this. So one that you mentioned in the lead into the question, Heather, was this notion was isolation, right? So what happens when somebody is constantly pointing out problems or things that are not right? Like, often folks feel some kind of way about that. They, like we are, we often don’t respond well, like we can become defensive, we can view these people as like, well, there goes, you know, Teresa on one of her rants again, right? Like, that’s this sort of notion. And so it becomes It feels very isolating, that you’re like the only one who’s constantly raising this issue. And then your peers are isolating you, your relationships with your advisor can change as a result of that, because now you’re pointing out what they’re doing to not be supportive. So that’s like one cause. The other is emotional trauma.

Stephen John Quaye
I really want to point to the work here of like, who have, you know, talked about this concept of secondary trauma, or vicarious trauma, where it’s not just the folks who are experiencing the trauma, but also those who are in close proximity to those so for example, like hearing stories constantly of police violence towards black people can inadvertently cause secondary trauma around racial battle fatigue, to a focus of color activists of color, right, survivors who are sharing stories of sexual assault and sexual violence, can also experience secondary trauma with those who are constantly hearing those stories. So that’s like another sort of a cost, like burnout is also something that these activists are are experiencing. And, you know, Alex shared the story of like, well, let’s just wait him out, right. So essentially, you keep sharing the same issues year after year, you’re gonna get burned out. And at some point, you might just be like, Well, screw it, I’m just, I just need to graduate at this point, right, because clearly, nothing is changing. So I think that’s another cost. And then the last one is like, their schoolwork, their academics suffer, because they’re spending all this time trying to hold institutional leaders accountable. Like that’s precious time, they could be spending in other ways that their peers with dominant identities are not in or not doing right. So their academics in this can suffer as a result of that. So for me, like the, you know, the DL semicolon, Dr. Part of this too long, didn’t read or didn’t listen. Like I think that the take the takeaway point from this is like, student activism is benefiting the institutions whether or not campus administrators are seeing it, but that it’s an unpaid or uncompensated form of labor. That is that is benefiting them. And that’s why I think it’s really an issue, because they get free labor essentially, without actually having to do anything to correct the to respond to the activist demands and concerns.

Heather Shea
For those who are listening to the podcast, versus watching the entire time, you were talking Stephen, and people were giving snaps and nods and, you know, just 100% agreement in what you’re talking about? Because I think we all see we all see it right? We’re all experiencing, and and, you know, maybe watching this happen on our own campuses, and feeling like oh my gosh, again, the student is up there telling their story, or remaining vigilant to the whatever thing that the institution is going to do next. And sometimes that takes a form of written demands. And I we’ve talked about demands a bit. And Alex, you and I have shared institutional history here at Michigan State. And there’s a recent kind of response to student demands happening. And it seems to be at least getting some recognition, right. So when students write their demands down, and it’s very tangible way. You know, people do listen, maybe it’s the language of it’s a demand, right, this isn’t something that is optional. But can you talk a little bit about are these effective? You know, what’s been your experience and working with student activists, alongside student activists who are writing demands? Do demands matter?

Alex C. Lange
Yeah, it’s a great question. And I think, I think what I’ve noticed, anecdotally, is that often demands if they happen, they happen at the same campuses, right? So there’s sort of this practice that student activists have carried on so the folks coming behind them right so Michigan State’s a great example, like Heather said, we have shared history at Michigan State University. Heather now works in the office that I used to work in As an instructor, and one thing that I think demands do that are very effective is they sort of form they become the students form of institutional memory. Right? A lot of institutions maintain their own memory, some would call an organizational saga, for instance. And institutions often are the ones telling that story, right demands come from a student perspective, and sort of creates a different kind of memory of what’s been happening at this institution. So going back to Michigan State, for example, the Black Student Alliance, I think the original demands that most people cite, are back from the 64/65 school year, if I’m not mistaken, it might be the 63/64 school year, regardless 60s. And one of the things that one of the clearest demands made in the 60s by BSA was a freestanding multicultural center. Right, that and more faculty and staff of color, particularly black faculty, and staff of color, or black faculty and staff, rather sorry. And that is now finally happening in terms of planning phase of Michigan State now in 2022. Right? And so students have been able to sort of look back at these demands and say, Listen, this isn’t a new ask, this isn’t something that came out of the blue, this is something we’ve said, we need. And for. I hear I’ve been in rooms with a lot of administrators who are like, well, we don’t know what students want. So we’ll just give them this. We’ll give them a cupcake party on the quad and help make sure that helps campus climate, right. And students have literally outlined what would improve campus climate in these demands, right. And so part of this, and this goes back to the labor piece to these students have done the labor of saying this is what would actually tangibly improve campus, we have done the research, we have talked to the people that we talked to every day, right? And so demands in the short term sort of outline, what could improve campus, but I think in the long term, they serve as this form of institutional memory from a student’s perspective of, here’s what we’ve asked in the past, here’s maybe what we’ve gotten, which might not be much if you look at the 64 bit the 65 demands from BSA at MSU. To now saying, again, it’s the same stuff but y’all just keep wanting to do the food, the fun the festivals, as as Meg points out, right. And so it’s really challenging, I get the defensive posture that administrators take when demands or issues right I can, I can empathize with that to a degree. But the the, the the utterance of demands from students often means that there has been a breakdown in communication, or zero relationship to begin with. I have not been on campus where students have issued demands when they actually have really good relationships with administrators. And not just the leaders of those groups. It is like that the entire group knows that like someone in administration sees them hears them responds to them, because sometimes they think for sure, for instance, at Michigan State with the previous president of Michigan State, you know, she had this once a semester meeting with all the leaders of the minoritized student groups. And that sort of was like, this is the way I’m going to develop relationships with students. But that was only one leader from each group, who then had to sort of carry a message of, well, I don’t think we carry the message that Luana was supportive, let me be clear, but I think they have the responsibility of carrying the message back to their groups, rather than the President being front and center. And I get college presidents, I don’t envy college presidents in our particular historical moment right now.

Alex C. Lange
And I think that this is one group of folks, if, if college presidents are going to put themselves in front of student government leaders in front of Residence Hall Association leaders in front of us formalized positions, they also have to put themselves in front of informal student leaders as well. And that is the way I think demands most often pop up when there’s a lack of relationship or a lack of trust, quite frankly, from activists to institutions. Activist, I think are, and I’ll talk about this in the next question a little bit. But activists, for the most part, really appreciate any form of meaningful progress, right? If TJ was here, TJ would say the bar is often on the floor for these activists, right? They just want some tangible piece of change that they see institutions are working on it. They’re really grateful, but it’s even but yeah, I’ll leave it there for now. But that is I think the point of demands, their effectiveness and sort of the place they serve in activist toolkits.

Chris Linder
I really appreciate that Alex, and I’m, I’m in a unique position right now, because of my role directly to the President, and I’m working with my second president, and our student activists around sexual violence have been quite active for the last five years as they should be. And so it’s just been interesting to sort of being in this space of negotiating. Because, like, to your point about the defensiveness, like, I also can empathize with the defensiveness like none of these, the vast majority of university administrators are losing sleep at night worrying about our students, like I genuinely believe most administrators genuinely care about students. And they are scared of activists. And what’s so striking to me is that like in these demands, for some reason, a lot of administrators I’ve worked with or even observed over the years, they can’t get at the root of what’s going on with the student. And they’re sticking up the surface, right? Like when students say, we want the title nine process to be less harmful to ask the survivors administrator start their hands and say, well, it’s tied to the federal law, we can’t do anything about it, instead of hearing like, what’s under that is, we are harming students with the processes that we have, what could we do differently? And so like, I just appreciate your points about the relationship and the defensiveness and figuring out ways to get at the root. Because they’re college students, like they know what they need right now. As an administrator, it’s my job to figure out, how can I take what the students are saying they need right now, dig in and figure out how I can make this institutionalized and over the long term, like, what’s the real issue that needs to be addressed? So?

Meg Evans
Yeah, yeah, I would add as a student activist, and then staff activist, the amount of upper level administrators behind closed doors that have said, we get it, we see it, we know we understand we hear and we can’t, because power, money, politic, right. And so helping folks find that line of where we can move forward, and where we can support student activist demands. And helping folks be brave. I mean, like, we’re trying to pay our rent, pay our mortgage, send our kids to school, I get it. And there has to be a line in which folks, you know, take a step of bravery. Right. So I agree with you, Chris, that I think folks get it. And I do as a former administrator, you know, I get it, I do get that line. And students, you know, like students deserve more. Going back to Stephens quote, originally, at the beginning of this question, right? students deserve to be students. And it’s our job as administrators to clear the wait to let them do that.

Stephen John Quaye
I think there’s, I mean, to your point, Meg, to and both what Alex and Chris have said, like, the other the other piece to that company’s coming up for me is, is, so when we talk with some of these administrators, like there’s this fear around getting fired, or losing their jobs? And so to me, it’s like, I always like, I struggle with like, being a professor, right? Who has tenure who has, like, it’s like, I don’t think of my job being in jeopardy, right? And so my initial gut reaction is to be like, What do you mean like this? Where’s this fear coming from? Like, are you literally going to get fired for supporting an activist? And then I have to, like, back off and be like, okay, like, like, let’s, let’s like, think about that, like, like, how do we like, how do I support you in navigating that right? Because now I have somebody who’s like a, the chair of my program, and I have grad students who are telling us that this equity value that we have, we’re not doing we’re not living up to it. My initial places like Well, yes, we are like, I come from this place of like defensiveness as well. So I can empathize with administrators in a different way than I could previously. And so it to like to like next point, it’s like this notion of like, when we get it, and then we think there are these policies or things in place that prevent us from doing what we want. It feels like we’re at sort of at an impasse. And so I think what I want is to figure out like to Meg’s point, like, what do we do with that knowledge? And then to Chris’s point, like, how do we get at the root of what students are asking for and see our agency because often the we can’t or there’s this policy, is that I think it’s often a being an active or to not doing anything when all of us have agency and some respect, we just may have been socialized to not see it. And so I think that’s part of it, too.

Heather Shea
Yeah, I absolutely agree. And I will give credit I, Alex, since you’ve left MSU, we have a new we have lots of new administrative leaders and our new Vice President for Student Life in engagement within, I think it was first year launched an inclusive campus initiative that catalogued and then response is beginning to respond to all of the student demands over time. And like, we had this one summit where we were given these like, Ledger size pieces of paper with like, here’s the demand, what are you going to do? Who’s gonna be responsible? When will this be completed? And it was impressive, and that that inclusive campus initiative is continued? So that’s, that’s a topic for a different episode, like what do you institutional risk? What is institutional response look like? But things have changed a little bit, I do think that that’s a step right in the in the right direction. So let’s move to recommendations because I do think that that’s kind of the meat of, of this, of this book, too, is very practitioner centered. So Chris, you know, as a person who worked in an identity based center, what would you recommend for folk for staff who work in identity centers to work with student activist and address power and oppression on campus?

Chris Linder
Interesting, one of the things I wanted to mention about this project is that we asked student activists to identify people who worked tend to and we struggled the entire third language, how to refer with an administrator with a faculty or staff member, we tried to determine institutional agents and Meg hated it. Not to call you out Meg but I just remember those conversations, like we have wrestled with this language the entire time, like what do we call folks who work on campus because there is a difference between an administrator and the director of an identity based center and a director, even administrator, right? Like all those things that are, there must be, but so when you might be asked to identify faculty or staff on their campus who were supportive of them a student activist, I’m pretty sure this is where the bar is on the floor came from because we started the interviewing some of these students identified as supportive. And we were like, This is what you mean by support. And for students. I mean, it is literally showing up at our walk with water, giving us markers, giving us the space to actually write down I mean, like, these people of support are so incredibly low, like, to me, it’s stuff that is just human decency showing up at a protest with water, like, yeah, exactly. But for me, that was an indicator that our students are really struggling, like, if that’s what support means to them, we have to step it up a little bit. So I think that was interesting. The other thing that came up, when we talked with the staff, who students who have identified a supportive, there was a definite discrepancy, and who operated from a place of fear, and who had agency and took things on. Just who was white people were afraid of losing their jobs, people of color were all about it. Right? Which is fascinating. Cuz guess what, white people don’t lose their jobs over this stuff. It’s pretty rare. When people lose jobs over this stuff. They’re mostly people of color, and or people with other with additional minoritized identities. And so we talked about that a lot. And so that’s where for, for people working with and wanting to support students, I think figuring out ways to find that voice, use that voice. Think about your agency, think about where where are you do have agency where you don’t have agency. And of course, giving markers and space and all of those things is important. And then like to make this point earlier, many of the people who work in identity based centers share the identities with the students so they have a pretty good grasp of what the experiences of oppression are. They have lived it for 20 years, they’ve dealt with it on this campus for a fair bit of time. And so another thing folks can do in those identity based centers, especially is constantly be reminding students of the history talking about people have tried this before you’re not alone. It’s okay keep going for the encouragement, the institutional history and knowledge, but then also feeding suggestions. I don’t want to I don’t want to like I think that was before we were recording already, but Meg was giving very specific really good examples of like saying connected to the institutional mission use doctor, like all of those kinds of things that are important to do. And it’s funny that that, that shared that with us earlier because literally yesterday, Meg, I was telling a colleague about you, and your sort of little subversive ways that you did that with a student activist. So it’s so fun to just hear you talking about again today.

Heather Shea
I love that I love it. Let’s, let’s turn it had the other administrators, right, so those folks who work alongside the identity centers, but don’t work in identity centers? What are the recommendations you have for them, Alex?

Alex C. Lange
Yeah, first and foremost, I would say learn from the stewards of the campus, right, like I, the first thing I did, as a new professional was sit down with people who had been at the institution for a very long time, and learn the history, learn politics, learn decision makers and learn. What changes the mind of decision makers, this is my biggest piece of advice for new professionals is that some vice president for student affairs are very convinced by large scale data sets. Some vice presidents of Student Affairs need someone to just sit in front of them and tell them their story. And as soon as you figure out what kind of data moves things on your campus, the better you will be at crafting messages to make change. Number one, I think, too, and we’ve talked about this, and I think public institutions have a particularly precarious place in our partisan politics these days, especially as state legislatures have more of a hand in these public institutions. And then we have sort of far right publications that sort of publicize every event, and then take it completely out of context. And so I think, two, is not being like, once you put something out in the world, you lose control of it, right? And so how are you going to proactively think about messaging against some of these frames of like cuddling students or other things like that, right? You’ve got to be in this day and age, much more proactive with that kind of stuff. I think others you shared before, we also have technology capacities that we didn’t have 1015 years ago, like dashboards, right? So if we can’t be in front of students and sharing a message, right, I get presents are really busy that upper level administrators have a bunch of meetings that they’re going to that I’m appreciative of, I’m not going to. And let’s put something on a website that keeps people up to date about the progress of these things over time. And I think too, as much as you can develop authentic relationships with student activist, even throughout the folks that you work with. Students notice when people constantly show up to things that they don’t know, the person will oftentimes introduce themselves. Or you should introduce yourself to those students, right in those ways. I think the last thing that I appreciated about when I worked at Michigan State, for instance, is that my boss was open to me going directly to our student Vice President or Vice President to have these conversations. Right. So it wasn’t that I had to pass a message up through the chain to get to those people, right. And so I think in some ways, we have to think about where hierarchy is important for carrying messages up the chain, and where perhaps we need to lessen their hierarchy in thinking about these sticky and thorny issues that student activist presents, right. I think when we’re talking about the defensiveness before, about demands, often things become an us versus them. And I think we have to really remember them is often students on our campuses. And so if we think about it, that way, we can begin thinking about a way to tackle these problems, rather than an us versus them as administrators.

Heather Shea
Thanks, Alex, Stephen as the faculty, academic community person, you all are in that space. Now. I know for sure. But Stephen, tell us about what your recommendations would be for those folks in the faculty.

Stephen John Quaye
Yeah, so I think number one, for me is I think, just giving student activists like just space to dream, I think is really important. So I mentioned teaching a student activism class, you know, a couple of summers ago, and I just asked them to just imagine what a world that didn’t center police look like, right. And they struggled, because that’s, you know, it’s hard to do that. But I think activists like are trying to envision, like what this world would look like. So I think just having space to dream and imagine something different, I think is freeing and I think just really could be really powerful. I think faculty are also positioned differently, right, like we talked about the protections that faculty have are just different. So that means we have more responsibility to show up for student activists to be courageous to support them in more visible ways. So I think that’s also really Important. Yes, Chris pointed out tenured faculty in particular, have those protections. So I think just allowing, like capitalizing on that and being more vocal in our support, I think is like really important. To Alex’s point from earlier. So Alex mentioned this notion of service learning as like a sanction institutional practice. I think what if, as faculty, we gave credit for student activists for their activism, right as like another form of like, credit that’s synonymous or similar with like, not synonymous, but like on the same par as like service learning as internships, those sorts of things that we more value as institutional leaders. But student activists are doing this work. Like that’s important work. So like, I think giving credit for that is is really important. And then the last thing that I will say is like, this notion of like helping activists navigate systemic oppression, I think so often, we focus on like, for example, like, I know, a lot of student activists were really, like, proud that the police officer who killed George Floyd was was convicted right on those charges. So yes, that’s great, we should celebrate that. And the system of policing that inherently, like deems black and brown people as more threatening will live on well, after George will after George Floyd’s death, right. And so how do we also support activists in thinking creatively about how we address systemic issues, and not just focus on like canceling or getting rid of the quote unquote, bad person? Right. I think that’s a much harder thing to do. And I think faculty can be supportive and like supporting activists and like navigating that, that challenge.

Heather Shea
Thanks so much, Stephen, Meg to you last co conspirators and supporters, not current students, maybe community members, maybe other interested parties on campus who either share identities, or who were adjacent to higher ed, how would you recommend they get engaged?

Meg Evans
Yeah, I love this part, particularly as someone who saw my role as an administrator being a bridge to others on campus and the community. Our campuses are beholden to the communities, we’re in campuses are constantly talking about town relationships, and often our campuses fail, the communities that we’re in, for example, the University of Georgia, I love the University of Georgia very much. And I believe to critique is to love which my colleagues will giggle at because that is who I am as a person. But if we love something, we should critique it to make it better and more accessible. The University of Georgia has failed to do that with Athens Clarke County. But what Athens Clarke County is this beautiful, beautiful county in which there’s so much community activism going on. It is our job as practitioners of the institution supporting student activists to connect the work that’s happening on campus and in our communities. So doing that, I also think another way is to connect are, as my colleagues have already talked about, and Alex talks about with looking at the demands from the 60s to 2022. We need to connect students with alumni, right? This is not new work, the language might be different, the ways that folks are going about it with technology might be different. But it’s not different. You know, I mean, if you look at the citizens and you know, almost 60 years ago with the for North Carolina a&t students at the Woolworths counter in Greensboro, what they did is no different than what our students are doing. Now. They’re demanding the same thing. So what our students are demanding now, but we make history sound like, Oh, that’s so long ago and not connected, right. But I think when we can connect our students to what’s already happening in our communities, there’s lots of really great chapters of PFLAG, or NAACP or right like, that are happening in our communities and alumni want to be connected. So an alumni can say, particularly, alumni donors can say a lot more than maybe some current folks can say. And so getting folks connected in that way. And I would also argue to, you know, with whatever everything that my colleagues said, reminding administrators reminding other colleagues that you know, activism is a form of love. Activism is a form of making our campuses better. And so helping change that narrative from activists, students, faculty, and staff as troublemakers to folks engaging in love for their campus and making it more accessible. And if we can change the narrative and change that story, we can get so many more CO conspirators and supporters to help move initiatives forward.

Heather Shea
I love that I think that is fantastic. I, you know, I think that we can jump through our final thoughts pretty quickly. Today we are at the end way over the end of our time, I would love to hear what you all are thinking about troubling pondering now and then if you can share where people can connect with you, that would be fantastic. So Chris, we’ll start with you

Chris Linder
Thank you Heather, I feel like I just feel reconnected to this work. I mean, sharing before we started that when you write something, it takes forever for it to be published, and then even longer for people to grasp onto it. And so sometimes it feels like, oh, my gosh, this was so long ago. But it was really good to reconnect. I think the other thing I just want to reiterate or I’m thinking through is, much like we have false dichotomies all over the place, I don’t want us to leave us leave with a false dichotomy I really appreciated Alex’s point about it’s not us versus them, it’s we. And I feel like we need to use caution around that with various roles on campus as well. So I do talk a lot, and I’m very intentional about working with Student Affairs practitioners, because I am a tenured faculty member. And so I think it’s important that I do what Steven was saying, and use that. And also, I’m always gonna be a student affairs person. And I believe many of student affairs professionals also scholar and so I worried about that false dichotomy as well. So I think that’s the other thing I’m leaving with.

Heather Shea
Thanks so much, Chris. Meg, closing thoughts.

Meg Evans
I kind of shared my closing thoughts. But you know, a lot of what I’m thinking about currently is thinking about our incoming student affairs practitioners. So I’m teaching a Master’s class this semester. And, you know, so many of our Gen Z are so much better at self care and drawing boundaries than maybe gen xers and millennials are. And, you know, I’m interested in helping the next generation of folks going into student affairs and or even the professoriate, and thinking about how do we help folks draw lines in a field that often demands, we don’t have any. And you only advance when you don’t have those boundaries. And so that’s something that is weighing heavily on me, particularly as we’re coming back to campuses. And really thinking about the beautiful hearts that so many of our Gen Zers, having so many of them are activists and thinking about how we kind of meld the two together, but really honoring them. That’s what’s sitting on me a lot recently.

Heather Shea
Thanks, Meg. Alex.

Alex C. Lange
Yeah, so I’m teaching our theory and practice of change course, this semester in the Ph. D. Program, which is a lot of organizational theory. And one thing I was thinking about last night was, I think my next major branch of scholarship is going to be this idea of accepted deviance amongst practitioners, like how do they learn the ways to sort of be deviant in their roles to support students, and like we don’t really have good with like, I know how I did it. And I know how others have done it. But I don’t know if we have a strong organizational understanding of it. And so I’m really I mentioned this in class last night. And so I’m really excited about this potential idea of like, how do we understand staff members, deviants, practices, in institutions of higher education in their effort to do the mission of the institution?

Heather Shea
My gosh, I love that so much. I need to read more. So good, can I take your class Alex, that sounds fantastic. Stephen, your final thoughts?

Stephen John Quaye
Yeah, it’s interesting, Meg, actually, you know, said a lot of the things that I wanted to say just around wanting people to just take better care of themselves and each other in this work, I think, is just really what’s staying with me. So I won’t I won’t repeat all of the things that Meg already said beautifully. So I think I’ll just end with in the, in the spirit of teaching a class like so I’m teaching this facilitating Intergroup Dialogues class this semester, and, you know, two classes and I’m already feeling just tremendous hope. Like, to me a lot of the things we’re talking about in this class is exactly around student activists like what a world it would be if people just validated when people said they need something we just said, I’m sorry, that happened or I hear you, how can I support you? Right, and I think that’s what I’m hoping the students will do in this class is just validate people who they’re in dialogue with and activists are simply wanting to be heard. So validate, validate, validate, ask how we can support and I think that our world would be so much better if we all practice that.

Heather Shea
Let’s, let’s end on that. On that note. Thank you. so much to all four of you for your time today for contributions to this phenomenal book I am so grateful for us getting the chance to sit here space today. Sending heartfelt appreciation to the dedicated behind the scenes work of Nat Ambrosey, our producer here on Student Affairs NOW thank you so much Nat. If you are listening today and not already receiving our weekly newsletter, please visit our website at studentaffairsnow.com and scroll to the bottom for the homepage to add your email to our MailChimp list. While you’re there, check out our archives. Thanks to the sponsors of today’s episode. LeaderShape partners with colleges and universities to create transformational leadership experiences both virtual and in person for students and professionals with a focus on creating a more just caring and thriving world. LeaderShape offers engaging learning experiences on courageous dialogue integrity, equity, resilience, and community building. To find out more please visit www.leadershape.org/virtualprograms or connect with them on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram or LinkedIn. Stylus is proud to be a sponsor of the Student Affairs now podcast, browse their student affairs, diversity and professional development titles at stylus pub.com. Use the promo code SANOW for 30% off all books plus free shipping. You can find Stylus on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, LinkedIn and Twitter @styluspub. Please take a moment to visit our website and click on the sponsors link to learn more. Again, I’m Heather Shea thanks to all of our listeners and everybody who is listening and watching and working alongside student activists on your campus to make change happen. Make it a great week everyone.

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