Heather Shea:

Hello, and welcome to Student Affairs NOW. I am your host, Heather Shea. Today, we are talking about inclusive supervision with three scholars and authors of a new book by the same title. I am thrilled to be joined by three dynamic individuals to discuss today’s topic. Student Affairs NOW is the premier podcast and learning community for thousands of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We hope you find these conversations to be restorative to the profession and make a contribution to the field. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays, and you can find us at https://studentaffairsnow.com or on Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, et cetera.

Heather Shea:

Today’s episode is sponsored by Anthology is your goal to engage in effective assessment boost data fluency and empower staff with strategic data collection, document analysis, and use of results for change? No matter where your campus is in the assessment journey, Anthology or formerly Campus Labs can help you figure out what’s next with a short survey, you’ll receive customized results and tailored recommendations to address your most immediate assessment needs. Learn about how Anthology’s products and expert consultation can empower your division with actionable data by visiting campus labs.com/sa-now.

Heather Shea:

As I mentioned, I’m your host, Heather Shea. My pronouns are she her and hers, and I am broadcasting from East Lansing, Michigan near the campus of Michigan state university, MSU occupies the ancestral homelands of the Anishinaabeg – Three Fires Confederacy of Ojibwe, Odawa, and Potawatomi peoples. Welcome to the three guests today. Let’s get onto our conversation. So in today’s episode, we are going to explore the concepts presented in a new text. Mamta Motwani Accapadi says about the book in the foreword, “This is more than just a scholarly text. This is more than a supervision primer. It is an invitation for us to model our highest values through our most meaningful spheres of influence the relationship between supervisor and supervisee.” Welcome to the conversation Amy Carmen and Matthew. I’m so happy that you could be here with me today. So as each of you introduce yourselves,ushare something about your pathway to your current role and your areas of responsibility within student affairs and higher education. Uand Amy, I’m going to start with you.

Amy Wilson:

Thanks Heather. And hello everyone. My name is Amy Wilson and my pronouns are she her hers. I’m an associate professor at Buffalo State College and currently serving in the chair role of the higher education administration department. Prior to making my transition to a full-time faculty role, my career really centered in student and engagement. For many years, I had a few years in campus activities and a fewer years in residence life, which is where I first met Heather many, many years ago. I made the transition in 2012 to full-time faculty after really recognizing that my true passion, surrounded educating, and particularly educating new professionals in the field. So being a faculty and a professional preparation program has really been a dream come true.

Heather Shea:

Excellent. Thanks so much for being here, Amy. I appreciate you joining us today here on student affairs now. Carmen, welcome.

Carmen McCullum:

Hello and welcome everyone. My name is Carmen McCullum and I’m an associate faculty member at Eastern Michigan university. I’m currently teaching in the leadership in counseling program. I’m very excited to be here. We’ll follow you today to discuss the book. My role in student affairs began several years ago when I was a program coordinator which was my first position in higher education. And I took that position and immediately had supervision responsibility and realized that I did not know what I was doing. So I worked that position for a while and then wanting to become an academic advisor across many institutions in Michigan and enjoyed that role for a really long time for transitioning into graduate school. And then the PhD program at the University of Michigan into the center for the study of higher and post-secondary education.

Carmen McCullum:

Like Amy, I was able to get my dream job after that which is becoming a faculty member in a higher education program where I get to work with young professionals all the time who are interested in changing the field working in student affairs, working with students undergraduate as well as graduate students. And so I’m just lucky to be able to be in such a position and excited to be here and to talk about the book. So thank you for having us.

Heather Shea:

Thank you so much for being here. Matthew, welcome to Student Affairs NOW.

Matthew Shupp:

Hi Heather. Thanks. Thanks for having us and welcome everyone. My name is Matthew Shupp. My pronouns are he him and his and I am an associate professor in the department of counseling in college student personnel at Shippensburg University. And I am the college counseling and student affairs program. Prior to my role as a faculty member, I’m currently in my eighth year. Prior to that role, I maybe unlike Amy, I grew up in residence life and housing and spent a significant amount of time working and living in, in residence halls. And I had spent about a decade post masters in a variety of institutions. And my last one was working for a large multi-campus state related institution prior to, to my move, to becoming a faculty member and like my my colleagues here today, I really enjoyed making the, from doing the work to actually working with our emerging professionals in the classroom capacity and really helping them bring theory to practice and seeing what that looks like for them on their journey.

Heather Shea:

Excellent. Well, I, too, teach in a student affairs professional prep program not as my full-time job, so I’m envious of you all because it is truly engaging and interesting to interact with graduate students who are, who are learning these concepts. Before we get into the meat of what you all mean by inclusive supervision. I love to hear a little bit about your, your experiences of supervision. So if you want to share a story about a supervisory experience that you had, maybe either as a supervisor or as a supervisee that informed your perspective about the book and Matthew I’m going to start, start with you.

Matthew Shupp:

Sure. Heather. Yeah, I you know what I, I keep thinking about, about kind of the tenure around the relationship with Amy and, and Carmen. I would often tell the story and talk about how my dissertation was focused on it, and that was kind of the genesis and that’s actually not true entirely. It’s not entirely true. I’m not going to focus just on one specific story, but I want to talk more about feelings and experiences when I was an undergrad and then going into my graduate program. What I want to convey is that something was going on for me very early on when I felt myself leaning in towards particular supervisors and pulling away or leaning away from others. And I really needed to figure out what was going on with that. Was it me? Was I being needy? Did I just not know the field?

Matthew Shupp:

Like what was happening for me that I felt like I could gravitate towards some and I kind of had to wear a mask and put up a barrier with, with others. And that is really what started my work and passion to really explore the concept of supervision and what do we mean by that? And then that resulted in my doctoral work and really centering on this concept of synergistic supervision, which was first the, I was first coined by Winston and Creamer back in the late nineties. So that is really I’ve, I’ve always had I think a passion because I really had a question within myself what was going on with me, where I had all of these different feelings and emotions when I was working professionally, but I had this very intimate reaction towards,

Heather Shea:

Yeah, that’s a great point. And I think it’s interesting how we kind of internalize that it’s like something that we are doing or not doing. When sometimes it’s just the construct of supervision as a whole. Carmen, tell, tell a story that you have that informed your perspective.

Carmen McCullum:

Sure. So it’s really interesting to kind of think back to those experiences. And I remember as an academic advisor I worked with several institutions and I realized that I was not really getting supervision as we talk about it in the book or elsewhere. I mean, I had someone who was in charge of me, but they weren’t really paying attention to if I was growing or developing or anything like that. Checking in, you know, only once a year for professional development goals that they can go anywhere. And I knew I wanted to move up. I knew I had something I wanted to contribute, but I didn’t have a pathway to do that. And when I went to graduate school, I became a part of a team in a particular office. And I saw the way that they were supervising their students and also their staff. They would have collaborative meetings. People were able to put, have insight and make suggestions that were taking into consideration that actually implemented. And so it made me begin to question what were my supervisory experiences and how could it be different?

Carmen McCullum:

And so I think that stayed in the back of my head for a little while, until I get into faculty positions. And I said, Oh, well, I’m going into higher education. This is great. Individuals will be able to learn how to be supervisors and what I learned in the programs where I worked and probably which is true across student affairs programs today, today, they’re not a lot of classes that focus specifically on supervision. And so we’re training these young professionals to go out and to be leaders hopefully to change the world, right. And they’re going to be a supervisory positions, but we’re not necessarily giving them the skills and tools that they need in order to be super supervisors. They may learn that in their graduate assistantships, sometimes in their internship or if they take it as an elective, but it’s not a common class that is required. And I think if we’re going to change the field of student affairs, particularly as it comes to supervision, we need to incorporate those classes into our core content.

Heather Shea:

I couldn’t agree more. Amy, I think maybe you and I maybe had a similar supervisor really early on back at Colorado State when we were both are serving as undergrad hall directors. What since then, or, or even then would you draw upon for your, for your story?

Amy Wilson:

Yeah, it was hard to think of just one story, but I think I also want to sort of frame where this first came from this, this idea of wanting to explore this like Matthew somewhat rooted in my dissertation work, which was focused on multicultural competence of leadership educators, but there was a small bit of the research both in my study and previous studies before me that said what the supervisor does may have an impact on the multicultural competence of their staff and that’s through formal or informal conversations. So it was that little nugget of you know, sort of positive correlation that said, I’d like to explore this more. But it wasn’t until sort of, after we really dove into our research that I then reflected back on some of my own supervisory experiences and one particular when I was the supervisee.

Amy Wilson:

And it was maybe my fifth year in the profession, I was in a mid-level manager rule and I was being supervised by a woman of color. And there was an immense amount of tension in the relationship at first that I couldn’t explain. And it wasn’t until she and I both became very vulnerable with one another, that that relationship changed dramatically for the better. And so, you know, those who have read the book or know some of our tenets that we’ll talk about maybe later, this vulnerability was really huge and moving that supervisor relationship forward. It allowed me to acknowledge that there was complexity in this relationship much greater than I had ever really considered based on the identities of both of us and what we brought to that relationship, how we showed up in that space. And so her vulnerability also, you know, brought out her fears that I knew she was giving me access to something that I would only use to help elevate and support her in that role.

Amy Wilson:

And it, it just really changed the relationship. And so the power of that, that I didn’t have language for back then, and that moment has really come through in our research. And so that’s been really you know, interesting and powerful for me to see in this work, but at a broader perspective, and in terms of working with graduate students who we, we, you know, we cultivate that idea of what it means to be in the supervisor relationship as graduate students. And I find most graduate assistantship supervisors to be very, very good. They, they want to be in that role and they understand the importance of that rule and a year or two later when you meet those graduate students who are now in their first year or two in the profession there’s just a life that is stifled in them. And it seems that when you into a professional role, it’s suddenly an expectation of not who you are, but what you can do. And we forget this idea of holistic development that we value as a profession when we’re working with students and graduate students, but we don’t necessarily apply that same philosophy to our work with our staff. And I really think that’s one of the points that I like to draw out from our study is that we really need to, you know, adopt that same philosophical value, not just in advising, but in supervising as well.

Heather Shea:

Yeah, that’s really rings true with my experience right out of grad school. And part of it was based on my experience in grad school, having had great supervision my first year out, I was like, what happened? You know, how was that? This is so different. So I did a little bit of Googling just in general about workplace and supervision. And I found a Gallup poll that said of, of more than 1 million employed us workers. This particular poll said that the number one reason people quit, their jobs is a bad boss or immediate supervisor and 75% of workers who had voluntarily left their jobs did so because of their bosses and not the position itself. I know you talk about at the beginning of the book about retention and the high rates of departure from our field. Matthew, can you talk a little bit about some of the notable statistics within student affairs? Do we have this kind of similar data and why people are leaving the profession and, or specific job?

Matthew Shupp:

Sure. Thanks, Heather. Yeah. So there’s this is really big right before we jump into inclusive supervision, we have to I think it’s important for us to talk about some, some base assumptions that I think we all on the call are approaching philosophically as well as what the data is saying. And one of the assumptions is that supervision is important. It’s important in our field and it’s important at all different levels, right? So it’s ubiquitous regardless of position and title. And it’s even more important, right? Because even now, given, given the, you know, a year into the pandemic, we’re seeing unprecedented you know, increasing demands and declining resources, right? So we early on cite some statistics where we, we cited literature from the eighties, the nineties, the two thousands and the early 2010s where you know, if, if 75 to 80% of an institution’s finances are spent on human resources, right on human capital what does it say that some of the most recent statistics are that upwards of 50% of new professionals are leaving the field within the first five years and not returning?

Matthew Shupp:

Right. So, so some may say that there are a lot of reasons as to why this would be the case, but we contend that supervision, or dare I say, poor supervision is, is a factor of significance in that. And so what do we know about that? Right. We know that most individuals will probably say absolutely supervision is important, but we don’t always get to, well, what does that supervision look like in practice and with the increasing demands and declining resources for making this mistake as well? What’s the first thing that often goes on my schedule? Well, it would have been the one-on-ones with my staff members, right. I was very quick that somehow those were expendable hours that were, that could be negotiated. And then when I got into those suit in to those one-on-one supervisory relationships, it was a very task driven, right. Focused on what do we need to get done? So it was actually the antithesis of the very thing that we talked about, where if we spend so much time and money and resources on human capital, why aren’t we investing the same amount of time and energy to retain and celebrate and uplift those individuals? So it’s a very telling, and we believe that that supervision and supervision models play a significant role in not only successful onboarding, but successful retention of employees.

Heather Shea:

Yeah. I just, right before this call had had a admin asked me if I could move my one-on-one with one of my staff members for a bigger meeting, with the same, with the same intent. So when you said that, I was like, Oh my gosh, that just happened to me. I’m sorry, Gabby. I will, I will reschedule with you. So Amy, what are the tenants? You, you talk about this in the book and one, like kind of primary section what are the tenants of inclusive supervision and then how does one know it when they experience it, that it, that it is that if like, if it just apparent or is there, are there clues? ].

Amy Wilson:

Yeah. I love that question of how do we know that we are experiencing that? And I, without getting into the weeds of our research, I think it’s important to sort of frame that, that that’s really what we set out to identify and really what we wanted to know. And we did that in a way in which we sought out participants who believe that their supervisors were multiculturally competent because we wanted to know what that looks like in action. And we didn’t define multiculturally competent for the participants because we wanted them to really be defining that what that looks like to really identify those tangible practices that others could do, because clearly these were good supervisory relationships in which people valued that and appreciated what they were getting in that space. We used multicultural competence at that time because this was 2013, 2014 before the professions had really you know, evolved into social justice and inclusion as the core competency. And we felt that there was much more research on multicultural competence in the profession. So a bit more well-known in what that means. So, so how do you know, or, or what does that look like?

Amy Wilson:

You know, all of the narratives of those participants who spoke about their supervisors really became the model and became the, the action items in our inventory. But all of it sort of paired down into what we believe are four tenants of inclusive supervision. And so I’ll briefly kind of walk through these, the first of which is the foundation of creating safe spaces. And so, you know, obviously seems very simplistic in, in what it says, but is obviously also one of the most complex things to create for supervisors. So this may be done through creating a very open and trusting environment where staff can get feedback without fear where there is an openness to different styles, different ways of thinking, different approaches that every voice is valued, no matter what level you are within that organizational chart that there’s a real openness to and an ethic of care and the personal interactions and where supervisors help staff navigate the culture of the office, the culture of the institution and just some of those boundaries. So those are some of the things that you might feel or experience if you’re in a safe space or where supervisor has really strived to create a safe space. The second tenant I did allude to earlier with respect to cultivate and holistic development and so much like we do with our students, as we think about them being these complex beings. We talk about the various dimensions of identity and supervisors who acknowledge those dimensions, who welcome and celebrate those dimensions where appropriate. That’s about the nurturing and cultivating every aspect of who someone is in that office, knowing that they can take off a certain aspects of their identity, like an outfit when I come to the office. And so we are who we are, and we show up in that space because we are mothers or fathers or caregivers for parents at this time.

Amy Wilson:

And, and whatever that might look like in addition to our personality, our race, our gender, or sexual orientation, all of that comes into that space. And so supervisors who are more adept at bringing in those identities and welcoming those identities in the space create more responsive and satisfied staff. The third tenant is, is demonstrating vulnerability, which I alluded to a little bit with my own personal story as well, that I think when we heard the narratives of our participants and started pulling that out, this was one that I was most surprised by, for some reason, because as we looked for people who were multiculturally competent the consistent narrative was that these supervisors were seen as extremely competent first and foremost, because they were willing to acknowledge that they didn’t know everything. And they admitted to their limits, but they sought out opportunities to understand they acknowledged their cultural mistakes and they were willing to engage in the discomfort of those moments.

Amy Wilson:

You know, those personal moments of vulnerability that have the power to transform. And I’d be remiss obviously if we didn’t mention, you know, Brene Brown being the leading expert and researcher on vulnerability you know, she defines it as that uncertainty risk and emotional exposure and all of that is present. And then those who have experienced that moment of vulnerability, you know, how uncomfortable it can feel in the moment. But our hope is that you’ve also felt that the hope and the power in the actor of those moments. But that’s, I think a really powerful narrative that in this short time that we’ve been talking about our work, that some of the stories that have come out after of vulnerability have been really powerful moments in transforming supervisory relationships. And then finally the fourth tenet is, is building capacity in others, which we identify as both an action of inclusive supervisors, but also an outcome of inclusive supervision.

Amy Wilson:

So when your supervisor actively invites and welcomes conversations about social justice and inclusion or focuses, professional development professional goal setting around enhancing your competency in this area, genuinely models, inclusiveness, and every action and interaction they’re both intentionally and unintentionally building your capacity to do the same. And so this becomes, I think the imperative for our profession and as we seek to change our campuses, sometimes that can seem overwhelming. And as one colleague we spoke with recently, she talked about the impact of the book for her was recognizing where her impact could be felt and that starting with her staff and in modeling these actions and hopefully, hopefully having that ripple effect. And that’s why it’s so important that it’s not just a model for graduate student supervision or a model for entry-level supervision, but really wanting to echo that the model’s important at all levels of supervision.

Heather Shea:

Yeah. I think this model has transcends also student affairs. And I think there’s so many pieces of it that are valuable beyond as well. Carmen, what are some of the barriers then of inclusive supervision?

Carmen McCullum:

So as Amy clearly laid out the tenants, I think thinking about some of the barriers really starts from up top and the environment of the space. And so you have to establish a culture of wanting to have inclusive supervision, wanting to be a space where you can create safe spaces and demonstrate vulnerabilities and things of that sort. And so you have to start there if you’re not willing to create that space for your individuals and for yourself, and that can be considered a barrier to inclusive supervision. Another barrier would be lack of vulnerability. So as Amy mentioned having vulnerability is one of the tenants and one of the strengths, and as Brene Brown said a lot of times people think of vulnerability as weakness, but it’s actually probably the most powerful thing you can do. And so when a supervisor is not willing to be vulnerable, when they’re not willing to admit that they made a cultural mistake or that they don’t know everything, it creates a barrier to be able to have inclusive supervision, which then leads to another barrier, which is trust.

Carmen McCullum:

And so you have to create an environment where mistakes are not met with punitive responses. So if I am a supervisee and I’m not understanding something or making a mistake and that’s penalize in some kind of way, then I’m going to be less likely more and less willing to come forward and talk to you and have a conversation about what happened and how to approach the situation differently because that trust is not in that relationship. So it really starts by the, by creating a culture that wants to work towards being inclusive. Something I was in another conversation about another concept, but I think it’s very similar that inclusive supervision is a destination with no ending. So it’s not like you wake up one morning and USI, I’m an inclusive supervisor. You may be able to work some of the tenants.

Carmen McCullum:

You may be able to embody some of the principles, but you should constantly be working towards being inclusive supervisor, as long as you are a supervisor and that’s at all levels. So beginning, mid level, or all the way up to a VP or president of the university, we should all be working to work towards these tenants in these principles. If we want to create an environment where everyone’s feels comfortable.

Heather Shea:

I want to pick up on that last point, because when I was thinking about this concept and prepping for our conversation today, I was thinking a lot about my own career. I’ve been in student affairs for 20 plus years, and I guess by some standards we can be considered successful. And I’ve noticed as of late that some supervisors, particularly my peers and those above me at the AVP or VP level seem to believe that competent, well adjusted staff, you know, as you say, in the book, don’t need supervision and I actually really disagree. And so I’m curious about how might I encourage my colleagues, which are my peers or other directors in my division and our VP of AVP leadership to engage in this conversation without pointing out the fact that they’re not doing it well,

Matthew Shupp:

If, Oh, go ahead, Carmen. As Heather, as, as, as you were talking, you, you said as of late or something, that in terms of, you know, recently they’ve been saying this and it made me think, you know, I defended my dissertation 14 years ago and a very quick story. I, I, you know, I I’m, this I’m this young doctoral candidate, right. Hoping to be called doctor and get these letters. And, and there were a couple people allowed around the table that were reader that could ask me questions. And one person was sitting there. I did not know who they were. But said, you know, you make a lot of, a lot of critical direct statements in your chapter five. And what would you say to someone that basically says, there’s no time for this, you know, good, good supervisee, don’t need supervision.

Matthew Shupp:

What would you say to those individuals? And I didn’t mean to sound flippant when I said that, but I said, my response would be make time. And like my heart, like, like was pounding in my chest because I didn’t want to sound so I didn’t want to come across as, as disrespectful, but I think my response would be the same. Right. We’re really talking about a paradigm shift where this is a philosophical underpinning that, that you know, those good employees, if you will, and I’m using that in right competent employees, are that because of the dedicated supervision or it is a part of what helped them become those, those competent professionals. So supervision, it needs to be a paradigm that it is for all. And I love what Carmen said, that it is an ongoing journey happening at all levels all the time. And if you look at it that it’s not a destination, but it’s a journey — imagine how it could transform our entire field.

Heather Shea:

Yeah. I don’t know if either of the, two of you also have thoughts on how to promote this across a division, which and I think the other part is like, everybody’s trying to do more with less. Right. And, and I think it does often end up being, it’s one of those intangibles that you can’t see, it’s not programming or planning something and, you know, writing a report you know, how do you know that you’re doing it well, is part of what makes this whole thing complex. Yeah.

Amy Wilson:

I guess to Matthew’s earlier content about, you know, the attrition in the field it’s, I guess my response was, would be, we can’t afford not to do this. We can’t afford not to invest in our staff. And so maybe that’s part of the conversation is in what ways are you investing in your staff, right? Those, those good professionals who now are burning candles at all. And right. And then, so I think this is the most critical environment and the remote work environments to really be holding your staff accountable for investing in their staff and in these human ways.

Heather Shea:

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Carmen McCullum:

And have you always come on to buy the book?

Heather Shea:

I’m like, we’re gonna buy 10 copies of this for our division. Right. and I was thinking about that, like not only just the applicability within the units that I, that I work in, but it really is applicable at all levels. In fact, in my pro Debo class, I assigned two chapters and we’re going to, we’re going to delve into this because I, as you all mentioned earlier, I don’t know that we’re necessarily teaching or talking directly about supervision. You know, in the other classes that are happening and in the, in the in the program specifically, and I also noticed that there are many practical tools that accompanied this book. So it’s not just as, as Martha said at the, at the beginning, it’s not just the scholarly piece or a primer, but you have all these dependencies and, and E resources, including a self-assessment. Matthew, maybe you could talk a little bit about how you develop those, but then also what are the ways that you envision those tools being utilized?

Matthew Shupp:

Sure. I can, I can start us off. And I can remember we were at a writing retreat somewhere during one of the early years that we were talking about this and we were developing the prospectus. And if anyone has ever worked on one to try to get a book contract it’s how do you envision individuals using this book? And it was really important to all three of us that this be a book that was very practical, meaning we want people to write in the margins, right? We want it to be well-worn and used that it has to be something that practically cannot be applied to individuals at all levels. So you, you made mention of, of the, the resources, and there are quite a few specifically targeted in each of the chapters talking about each of the four tenants, but there’s also two chapters that focus specifically on case studies at a variety of levels.

Matthew Shupp:

And the first, the first chapter that we talk about there’s case studies, and then we kind of talk about how we might theoretically reflect upon it and maybe take a particular approach, but then the next, then the next chapter is just case studies where we then have, have guided questions at the end to help folks think through what they might do. The other thing that I do want to point out and I’ll turn it over to my colleagues is when you look at using this at all different levels, going back again to, to Brene Brown and this idea of vulnerability, it challenges us to have to take risks. So when we look at the inventory, it’s powerful, regardless of the level of the supervisory diad, but I would encourage supervisors to look at the supervisee and say, I want you to take the inventory and rate me, right?

Matthew Shupp:

How do you create that, that space of trust and vulnerability to say, to say, there’s no wrong answers, but I need you to think constructively about whether or not my supervision style is congruent or incongruent with how you envision our supervisory diad. So using that to basically using the inventory as a baseline or a re a rubric or a, a platform to launch this conversation about where are we can grew it and where are we missing each other? So that’s just a couple lots in terms of what, what the, how the book can be used.

Heather Shea:

That would be a powerful conversation for sure. Carmen, I think, do you want to talk a little bit about graduate students in particular and how to use it in classes?

Carmen McCullum:

Yeah, so I think it’s a really powerful tool to you graduate student in classes. And I think one of the things that’s really important to remember that inclusive supervision is intentional, right? It’s not something that you wake up in the morning and you, it just comes to you. You have to actually read and understand that their skills and development that you should do in order to be able to practice inclusive supervision. And so one way that the book can be used is just to introduce the concept of inclusive supervision to graduate. Students would have them take the case. Studies have them go through and do the inventory reflect on who they are and what skills do they need to develop.

Carmen McCullum:

Right. So they can take the inventory as if they were a supervisor and then say, okay, well, I’m obviously missing these things. I can work through my graduate training, my assistanceship, my graduate my internship to build on those in those capacities. Right? And so I think that’s several ways that the book could be used with graduate students at multiple levels. We have some undergraduate students who approach us all the time about coming into our master’s program. And we have a lead program in our particular department for undergraduate students who want to focus on leadership. This can easily be transferred into a leadership class, as well as a master’s level and higher education or PhD in educational leadership. So I believe that it is a very useful tool for students at all at all levels.

Heather Shea:

Yeah. Amy, I’m going to jump down a little bit because I want to talk, I want to talk before before we get too far down about some of the self-awareness that’s required. And I was wondering about this as I was reading through the inventory itself as, as one of the resources. And I’ll be honest, I made some assumptions about how I could see my colleagues and my supervisor completing it. Like, they’d be like, of course I do all the things like amazing. Right. and I think it has spoke to this as well. Like one of the things is being vulnerable using this inventory to solicit feedback. Amy, tell me a little bit about how you could see that working you know, entry-level mid-level senior level and what kinds of skills and abilities does one need to approach that conversation directly?

Amy Wilson:

Yeah. Good, good question. And I think Matthew started to allude to this a bit. So while it is initially first and foremost, a reflection tool for anyone at any level to assess their own progress towards becoming a more inclusive supervisor it can be easily turned into almost a 360 feedback in which you have your peers, your maybe even your supervisor completed. But it you’re absolutely right in terms of what needs to happen in order to make that an effective tool in that capacity. Actioning, both vulnerability as we’ve talked about it, but also having created a safe space for your supervisees to give you that feedback. And so if one is going to use the inventory as this tool it’s really important that they have created an environment where people feel like they can be honest and they can be constructive.

Amy Wilson:

And that there’s not going to be defensive in this in terms of how, what they hear. And I am guilty of having done the same, because I think people really do want to feel like they’re doing the right thing. And so sometimes feedback is hard to get and, and receive. So it’s really important that as supervisors are gonna use the supervisor or the inventory in that way that they’re aware of the level of trust already exists. And if there is a lack of trust in some of those supervisory relationships, one of the things that we’ve talked about in examining there’s no linear sequence in these tenants in terms of how to strive towards them. But if there is a lack of trust in which that safe space is not there, as Carmen said earlier, one of the things that can help transform that in, in sort of rebuild that trust is by being vulnerable.

Amy Wilson:

And so this can be a tool to say, I want to do better. I want to be better in this relationship. Let’s dialogue about how this could what this could look like in this office, what it could look like in our supervisory relationship and what it could look like in this environment. So sort of chicken and egg, one of those things maybe needs to happen first in order to effectively do what you’re suggesting with the tool. But I think if the feedback you provided via the inventory, then creating that dialogue about, okay, what does this look like in action here in this relationship? But I think approaching with humility, vulnerability is always the best thing in that case.

Heather Shea:

Yeah. And, and, and related to that, I think you just, you just kind of queued up my next kind of theme, which is that the safe space is really a foundational tenant. The, the diagram or graphic that you have in the book that, you know, these different other pillars kind of rest upon that as, as the lower level, right. And the most important kind of foundational piece. And I appreciate that in the chapter on creating a safe space, you bring up the contract of face space and how it can be somewhat problematized. Right. And I, like, I liked it a lot. You’re reframing. So for those of you who are already like the safe spaces, you know, problematic, they talk about that in the book. But I am really curious about how as a supervisor one creates that sense of psychological safety and the role specifically that power plays in this as related to social identities, for example can a non binary supervisee ever truly be safe if their direct supervisor often misgenders them, Carmen, do you want to, do you want to start with that? And then we can pass it to others as they see fit.

Carmen McCullum:

Yeah. So I think that is a really interesting question. And I think that power dynamic does show up in supervisor or supervisory relationships, and it can be hard to be, feel psychologically safe in the space that you described. And that’s why it really starts with the supervisor to be able to create that, that, that space of vulnerability. So it’s really interesting that you mentioned that our model, because when we first set out to do this research project, we had created a model based on interviews. And we thought that all of the tenants were really equal. But as we kept doing research and we did the quantitative instruments, we realized that without creating the safe space, none of the other tenants can survive. Like they were all crumbled. So it was really, you have to start with creating a safe space, and that really does start with the supervisor being able to do that.

Carmen McCullum:

So if you’re a supervisee and you’re in a space where you’re not feeling safe psychologically you have to, I guess the best way is to say is to find the environment where you are. Right. for myself, when I was working as an academic advisor, I wasn’t getting what I needed in my department. I found that elsewhere in another department, right? So you may have to find those safe spaces elsewhere if your department that you’re in is not willing to make changes in order to cultivate such safe spaces, but being able to, to use your own power that you have in the space that you have in order to do that for yourself or others and colleagues want to. Yeah, I guess

Amy Wilson:

The only thing that I would add you know, and everyone sometimes has to be sort of a, a judge of a person’s heart and their actions and to know about co as a supervisor, I have made cultural mistakes in the past and, and all I could do was apologize and strive to do better and be better. And so in the example, in which you gave, if that supervisor’s not trying, right, I’m not trying hard enough to learn on those mistakes and to, to be better than I think Carmen’s point is astute. There’s only so much that supervisees can do in these situations. But we do make the point in the very last chapter that while this book is intended for supervisors to really think about their own philosophical approach to supervision, that supervisees can learn something from this as well in terms of how to build a relationship with a supervisor. And so as I said, you know, vulnerability on my part as a supervisee helped transform the relationship with my supervisor. And so sometimes it’s a willingness to engage deeply in that relationship that can really propel it forward. But sometimes it does take an initiative by a supervisee to, to be the first, just to step out.

Heather Shea:

Yeah, it’s really, it’s really, it’s really tough. So this has been such a fabulous conversation and I always wish we had more time. So as we conclude every, every episode of our podcast, we always ask this question. So our podcast is called student affairs. Now I’m curious what each of you are pondering questioning troubling, you know, where you’re taking this research next. And if we could you know, each share something that would be awesome. And Matthew, I’m gonna start with you

Matthew Shupp:

Sure Heather. Thanks. And I think I just want to start off where I’m at is I’m grateful, you know, I’m grateful for this opportunity. I’m, I’m grateful for people that are listening because I think it shows an investment of us wanting to continually do better. So if you are a supervisor, thank you. Thank you for, for, for looking inward. If you are a supervisee, thank you for the work that you do primarily probably because you’re, you’re in some capacity on, on the front line. So I’m just, I’m sitting, I think in gratitude right now, but I’m also very excited because we’re kind of on, I don’t know, inclusive supervision, 2.0, I guess if you will. We have started to engage in the next qualitative phase of our study, where as Amy had said, we presented the question to folks do you consider your supervisor to be multiculturally competent? Well, now what we’re doing is we are interviewing supervisory dyads based upon the supervisee who believes their supervisor exhibits the four tenants of inclusive supervision. So I’m really excited because it, I feel like I’m in a very privileged position to be able to try to listen and elevate individuals, voices that truly are doing the work in our field. So that’s what I’m sitting with. And, and that’s kind of where our research is going.

Heather Shea:

That is so exciting. I love paired reflection opportunities. Cause I think that reflection that happens in community is really powerful. So that will be, that will be really interesting.

Matthew Shupp:

Can illustrate it illustrates the risks that we’re talking about, right. That idea of truly, you know, have a supervisee put themselves out there, but then also have the supervisor kind of reflect and say, how do you think you meet this? And then also, where do you think you need to grow? So I think they’re kind of living out that, that tenant of of demonstrating vulnerability.

Heather Shea:

Wow. That’s great. Carmen, what are you pondering thinking about troubling now?

Carmen McCullum:

So it’s really interesting as Matthew talked about our next research project 2.0, we pondered back and forth with that should be. And so I am really excited about what’s coming up with that, but also when we get to 3.0, where we get to take a deeper dive into some of the tenants. And so we know that vulnerability is something that is definitely part of inclusive supervision and part of that is acknowledging your limitations, but what does that really look like? Like is there, is it more detailed? Is it more nuanced? And, and how can we help others who are not comfortable doing that, be able to take that step in their supervisory practices. I’m also sitting here wondering how do you get a fabulous job? Like Heather Shea, who gets to talk to all these wonderful people about these wonderful topics!

Heather Shea:

[Laughter] As a learner. I just have to say, like, I love diving in and having these, like, they’re like little mini lit reviews, right. On every single topic that I’m interested in. Thank you. That’s very kind of you! Amy, what are you thinking about now? I echo my colleagues and I think like Matthew, I I’ve labeled this year a year of hope,

Amy Wilson:

Hope, and you probably can all infer many things from that, but I am very hopeful about what can happen when people adopt, you know, the philosophy that we’re, we’re speaking about. I’m also been wondering lately and engaging in a, an additional research project around professionalism in our field and the meanings of professionalism. And it was actually through a reading this summer the white fragility, a white professionals reading that this conversation sort of came about. And then we did a with our students this summer. And so the intersection of this has been kind of interesting for me to think about in particular, in creating safe spaces and how we define professionalism has an impact on that space. And so that’s sort of some of the side stuff that I’m working on as well, but certainly very related to this. And I’m excited about exploring that and how identity shapes are the meanings of professionalism.

Heather Shea:

Oh my gosh. That will be a fabulous future conversation. I think on Student Affairs NOW I can’t wait to hear 2.0 and 3.0 the podcast version. So I am so grateful for your time today to talk with me on student affairs now. So thank you for spending the last 45 minutes or hour or however long we’ve been chatting. And also thanks to our sponsor Anthology for those who are listening you can receive reminders about student affairs now and all of the great episodes by subscribing to our newsletter, our, archives are growing. I think we’re at 25 or so episodes and you can find the complete list@studentaffairsnow.com to subscribe to the podcast, just go to whatever place you get your podcasts on iTunes or Stitcher or wherever. And you can also subscribe to our social channels. This might be cheesy, but if you leave a five star review, it really helps elevate the conversation and build a community. Again, I’m Heather Shea, thanks to all of our fabulous guests. Everybody who’s watching and listening make it a great week. Everyone [inaudible].