Amer Ahmed
What we should never say one of my pet peeves is when we say we’re teaching the same class we did last semester or last year, we you never teach the same class. Because the people in the room are always different, and who they are matters for what kind of learning can occur if we create an environment where they want to bring who they are forward and feel safe and comfortable in doing so to enhance the learning that happens to bring perspectives that others including the faculty member might not have, it’s an opportunity to enhance the learning. That’s what inclusive excellence is about, right?

Heather Shea
Welcome to Student Affairs NOW the online learning community for Student Affairs educators. I am the host of today’s episode Heather Shea. Today on the podcast, I am so excited to talk with Dr. Amer Ahmed and Reverend Dr. Jamie Washington about practical and interactive ways to train faculty on diversity, equity, and inclusion concepts and practices. Often faculty are among the hardest to reach in DEI Training and our panelists today, I figured out a couple of ways to bring this topic to you all and to make training for faculty and staff more engaging and interactive. I was able to attend a session at the National Conference on Race and ethnicity or NCore in early June, and I knew I had to find a way to extend this conversation to an episode on the podcast. I’m so grateful to Amer and Jamie for being here today. Before I bring in our guests, let me tell you a little bit about our channel. Student Affairs NOW is a premier podcast and learning community for 1000s of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We hope you’ll find these conversations make a contribution to the field and our restorative to the profession. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays and you can find us at studentaffairsnow.com on YouTube, or anywhere you listen to podcast. Today’s episode is sponsored by Equip Inclusive. Equip is an affordable, scalable and customizable hybrid learning program for education professionals on how to engage diversity on campus. Stay tuned to the end of the podcast for more information about this episode sponsor. As I mentioned, I am the host of today’s episode Heather Shea, my pronouns are she her and hers. And I am broadcasting from the ancestral traditional and contemporary lands of the Anishinabek, three fires confederacy of Ojibwe, Odawa and Potawatomi peoples, otherwise known as East Lansing, Michigan, home of Michigan State University where I work. As I mentioned, I’m thrilled to bring this podcast to you all a session I was able to participate in and core and I’m so excited to welcome you both here today. So thank you for joining me. Please give us a bit about your background and how you’re coming into the conversation today. And Amer? I think we’ll start with you.

Amer Ahmed
Yeah, thanks for having us. My name is Amer Ahmed, and I use he him pronouns in English and I currently serve as Vice Provost for diversity, equity inclusion at University of Vermont, which is a senior Diversity Officer role at this university. In the past, I’ve been a full time consultant in on dei work in higher ed and beyond. I’ve worked in a Center for Teaching and Learning at UMass Amherst, work the University of Michigan. So I’ve done my rounds in the field, and over the last 20 years. And I’m excited to engage this important topic.

Heather Shea
Thank you so much for being here. I appreciate it. Jamie, welcome.

Jaime Washington
Good morning. It is our where whatever time you’re listening to this morning for us. And I am excited to be here. Not only because of the topic, but because of the people that I get to just be in community with my brother Amer, and just to hear, I’m Heather, Jamie Washington, my pronouns are he him and his. And I’m joining you from the original ancestral homelands of the Piscataway kuroi tribal nations here in the Baltimore, Washington area, I come to this work. And enter this conversation today, spending the last 21 years 22 years as a full time consultant with the Washington Consulting Group, doing exactly what we’re talking about today, helping campuses live into the stated value of diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging as was named already in the introduction, that some of the the challenging work is around scalability and getting creating the spaces where faculty see this as an essential part of their roles and the work that they do. We certainly talk about this with lots of our staff and invite and encourage staff to be in and participate in this. And so I think that this conversation today is one that’s important, particularly given our current context.

Heather Shea
Absolutely. Yeah. So let’s let’s start with that current context. Because this is, you know, this might be a very basic question, but I think given the climate, you know, that we’re seeing across some states that are attacking the work of di, I think we have to start with the basic question. So maybe you can say why is DEI training essential for faculty on college and all college and university campuses? And how does this having this kind of training positively impact that college environment and, and ultimately affect students?

Amer Ahmed
Yeah, well, equitable access to a quality education is is is critical, because you know, everybody’s trajectory into higher education or any educational setting is unique and interesting. That’s part of what makes any learning environment diverse in some way, shape, or form. And then inclusion really helps us harness the the innovative benefits, that comes from people bringing their experiences, their identities, their background, to make us better, I mean, that’s the basis of inclusive excellence. And I think the environment that we’re in right now is really undermining that we see in a lot of states, our ability to be able to take advantage of that opportunity that comes with harnessing all of those benefits and attaining a greater level of educational excellence. And so sometimes it’s framed as, you know, academic freedom versus Dei, in some way, shape or form. But the reality is that the contestation of dei is a threat to academic freedom in of itself, and once you tell people what they can and can’t study and learn about. Now, you’ve you’re undermining academic freedom in and of itself. And that’s what we’re seeing the result of, and here at University of Vermont, the ancestral land of the identity people, we’re seeing people fleeing other states to come to Vermont, because they recognize that they’ll be able to do their research and do their work and, and engage in the inquiry, that they have built their careers around in higher education. And so it’s, it’s unfortunate, but we have to really advance that message that a threat to DEI is a threat to academic freedom and of itself. Yeah, Jamie? Well,

Jaime Washington
yeah, I would jump in here. So one of the things that really feels important for me in this conversation is that we not allude that this is a value based discussion, of course, and that there is a tension that we live with, that is about shoving if you would liberal leftist values down the throats of our faculty, staff, and students. And I’ve been saying more directly. If all of us mattering feels leftists so be it. Right? That if we’re going to politicize the value of all of us mattering, all of us deserving to show up and be able to contribute to our full potential, all of us being able to engage effectively with each other, all of us belonging, if that feels like a leftist value, that is the state of value of most of our colleges and universities. Now, we get to talk about how we come to understanding that differently. And but the basis is that, as my brother, Amer has already named the notion that a quality education, quality, access to education is a value statement for all of us. And so if you don’t agree with all of us deserving that, then none of this is going to matter to you anyway, I don’t care what kind of programs we put in place, I don’t care how much if you don’t agree that we should all have the right and the access to learning and to be able to do our best then this there’s going to be a disconnect or a bump for you. So I start there. And I feel like that’s that’s the critical place that we need to enter. And then we go from there, to looking at what’s the role of higher education? And what’s the, again, what’s the business case? What does higher education exists to do? And what I say in every space that I go is part of our primary role is to turn out the next generation of leaders. And we cannot turn out the next generation of leaders if they have not built the capacity to engage effectively within about an across difference. And you can’t teach what you don’t know. So we need to prepare the people who are doing the preparation so that they can be most effective in the work.

Heather Shea
Yeah, yeah, I feel like Um, the the moment at the Ncore session that was the most cathartic was when we all sat and did together kind of named those barriers, right, the barriers to build to bringing that across the entire campus. So, Jamie, can you talk a little bit about like, as you’re going to campuses? Like, what are some of the things? What are the named barriers to building capacity among faculty for a DEI or a more inclusive perspective?

Jaime Washington
Well, and I appreciate you naming, building capacity, because one of the two, again, the tension, and I talk a lot about the tensions in the work, right. It’s the not the either or not a dualistic way of making sense of it. This is some of the tension right, in the work. And so one of the barriers is what folks think it is. Right? And so getting clear around not only what DEIB and A and J, justice, access with what all that means, but what it is right. And the why under it. Again, I go back to and I think we’ve talked about, you know, it’s like, well, just increasing awareness, increasing awareness. Well, that’s, that’s a piece of the work, you’ve got to have some awareness. But again, the the barrier, the first barrier is often folks don’t understand what it is. Second barriers are, how do we do this in a way, given all the demands that we have? Right? And how do we do it in a way that we don’t, again, continue over and over again, to have the same people will have to navigate harm in the space of learning? And so how do we make sure that there’s some foundational engagement that folks know and opportunities to do some work on their own, to come to the space with a level of understanding about the dynamics that might show up? Again, we get into funding in order to do that, right? How do we create the funding to have the resources to, to have folks learn those things, and, and the time, again, the other piece is fine, to make all of those kinds of things happen. So those are some of the some of the some of the barriers that the ways that we do this, from, you know, again, for me is, so how does this matter in the doing, right, so one of the things that I have begun to do and I have, I’ll speak to nearly 30,000 people over the next week, as I welcome new students to campus, and one of the things that is felt really important is that they get why this matters, in terms of what they’re going to do from here. And so when we’re talking to faculty, we want to be able to talk about why does right, the skills and the capacity to engage effectively with the diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging lens matter for the work you’re attempting to do in the classroom? Right. And I talk with students about first year students, I got them raising their hands. And so what do you want to do you want to I want to be a psychologist, or I want to be an engineer, or I want to be this, I want to do that. And I just give them a few moments as they now talk about why having skills and capacity to engage about difference will matter, as you do that job that you do live in to that purpose, so that they begin to see this, what we’re doing here in higher education, is preparing them so that they can be more effective in that work. And so some of the barriers is understanding and making the connection to how this matters for the work that they’re going to do.

Heather Shea
Yeah, and I think I think one of the challenges I mean, there’s the there’s the named like, this is performative, or I just need to check the box, right? Like our campus has a has like a three hour RVSM relationship violence and sexual misconduct training that we all have to do every year. Similarly, they’ve created a, you know, a diversity training module where we go into this computer based thing and, and it does feel very performative, right? Like, okay, I did my three hours for the year. So, you know, I think the time and the like, the active engagement, and then like, who’s coming to this group, you know, to be a part of the conversation. And I think there’s also an interesting piece, I’d love to hear your thoughts on this. Um, To Amer, like when you have faculty who are resistors, right, who are saying, well, you can’t tell me what to do in my classroom, you know, they are claiming like this is impeding upon academic freedom. And I put that in quotes partially because like, I think our we largely misunderstand what that concept actually is, like, how do you address that within your role at Vermont? And did those barriers that Jamie also mentioned kind of resonate to?

Amer Ahmed
Yeah absolutely. I think, I think the the thing that a lot of folks don’t always think through is that inclusive teaching isn’t necessarily about telling you what to teach in terms of right. And, you know, and I think one thing we struggle with in higher education is centering learning, which is kind of like surreal when you really think about it. But if you think about the way most of us are trained in the academy, it’s to be content experts, and researchers, really, most faculty aren’t taught how to teach. And when you’re not taught how to teach, you teach the way that you were taught. And so what’s happened is that there’s an inheritance that comes from that, that that is rooted in Eurocentric patriarchal, heteronormative norms, and et cetera, that just gets reified in how we approach teaching and learning in the classroom. Right. And in that, as Paulo Freire II talks about the banking and depositing approach to teaching and learning in which the student is a passive, you know, receiver of the deposit, and which is rooted in the content from the faculty as opposed to inclusive pedagogy being about learning? And how do we want to go about learning with this group of people? What we should never say one of my pet peeves is when we say we’re teaching the same class we did last semester or last year, we you never teach the same class. Because the people in the room are always different, and who they are matters for what kind of learning can occur if we create an environment where they want to bring who they are forward and feel safe and comfortable in doing so to enhance the learning that happens to bring perspectives that others including the faculty member might not have, it’s an opportunity to enhance the learning. That’s what inclusive excellence is about, right? In which the content is complimentary and supportive of that process. And then that environment in which you’ve created because you can know everything about every kind of identity, supposedly, but first of all, nobody really can. But you can think that you do. But actually, if that’s not tied to skills and competencies, and how to bring folks in to a process of learning, actually, you’re more likely to tokenize, the black student in the classroom, when you’re hyper sensitized, and really want to bring a black perspective, right. And you don’t have the pedagogical skills to create the environment where that student actually wants to bring they are forward and feels like who they are and what they bring matters, and is valuable, especially because most of our entire educational system has told our young people that who they are does not matter in the process. And actually students when you actually enact these principles and approaches that especially the most marginalized students will resist, because part of how they got here was fall in the program. Wait a minute, the deal, everybody told me that the deal is that I just do whatever you tell me to do. And now you’re telling me who I am matters in this process? Just give me the answer. Right. And so when when as faculty when we reinforced that we’re not interrupting the preexisting inheritance dynamic, right. So the way we do that and get to a different level of excellence, is when we commit ourselves to creating a more inclusive learning environment in our classrooms. I just

Jaime Washington
want to jump in here and the centering of learning, right? Again, I go back to what is it that we exist to do right? And if we are going to, in fact, do what higher education is supposed to do in terms of creating the learning environment so that we can turn out right then how in fact, are we centering again, and understanding what Amer names beautifully is the way we’ve done it in the past is not enough. It’s not necessary. rarely wrong. We’re not, we’re not here to make it all wrong. But we are here to invite that it’s not the only right. And it’s serving all of us for the next round. And so my favorite example right now is, you know, as you think about so how do I adapt and adjust so that I can be effective? We’ve had three years of, well, we had to learn some stuff, the way we used to teach the way we was doing it, not not gonna work. And so when whenever folks say to me, well, we can’t make faculty do anything. I say, the faculty, I was doing a whole session with faculty a few weeks ago, at an institution and they said, well, faculty shouldn’t be required to do this kind of work. I says, so what should faculty be required to do? And why should they be required to do it? Right? And when we get clear about faculty cannot do their job. If they don’t build the skills and capacity to do this work, well, then we get clear about another part of the why. Right? So it goes back to this, you talk about Heather, this notion of being performative. Sure, well, you know, learning zoom was was is that was that performative? Right learning virtual platforms was was that performative? was some of it, you’ve got to learn how to do some things. But you’ve got to recognize that the context that you did it in was not sufficient to meet the needs of the current day. Right. And so

Amer Ahmed
that’s, that’s why we have to frame it as integral to good teaching is good teaching is inclusive teaching. Yes, it’s teaching is good teaching. Right. And so that’s why a University of Vermont, we now have that in the faculty contract for reappointment, tenure and promotion criteria. Yeah. Well, that it’s part of their portfolio and package that they have to submit as if as a factor for consideration, not the factor. Not sure. Consideration is a factor because because we want our faculty to be good teachers, and you really can’t be a good teacher. If you’re, you’re not committed to inclusion in the classroom.

Heather Shea
There’s a couple of things that really strike me about, you know, the the conversation that particularly around learning and teaching, and I think you just named maybe a solution is that when we think about the tenure promotion process, like this isn’t an add on, it is included with in, you know, if we’re talking faculty research, teaching and service, like that teaching component has to have this embedded within it, it’s not a like, let’s add another category that’s, you know, DEI, which then feels like, oh, well, I gotta put stuff on this list. The campus also has to offer things right, that go on to potentially go on that list. But like, what is it about the classroom environment that is going to affect the faculty members teaching, you know, score, if that’s, if that matters? That’s another question. Right? Like, how much does teaching matter compared to research? Right? And are we, you know, in what ways are we affecting, you know, more inclusive teaching skills, right, among, among faculty, because I think what you named earlier, too, it really struck me as that, you know, we are relearning the same things we learned as faculty from people who were also not trained to be teachers. So there’s this continuing thing, so. So let me go into that a little bit more, because I think our next question kind of deals with some of these very specific teaching and learning skills that relate right. So if we’re trying to create practical interactive tools, for faculty to engage effectively in inclusive classroom pedagogy, you know, what, what are some of the things that we might kind of address, so syllabi, environmental norms, you know, environment norms? So, Amer, do you want to kind of dig into that a little bit based on your work?

Amer Ahmed
Yeah, I mean, I think, again, when we send our learning, we start with, what is it that we want students to learn? And I think many faculty they start with, what do I want them to read? Or What content do I want to give them? Rather than starting from what is it that I want them to learn and developing those learning goals and then the, you know, world for Center for Teaching and Learning Centers, that’s called backwards design. Right? Okay. It takes time. You know, it’s stuck to because a lot of faculty already have the courses you know, designed So, you know, there’s got to be an investment and commitment in the institution to give faculty the opportunity to work on, first of all learn how to backwards design a course. Right, starting with what is it that I want to learn? What is the learning that I want to enable? And how do we go about doing that? And how does the content support that? Right? So it’s the thinking about the process first, before we think about the content, you know, so that that’s a key component. And then thinking about a student centered teaching approach, where who the students are matters, what their identities are, what they bring to the table, I think it’s important for I thought it was interesting coming out of Student Affairs and co curricular learning environments, going into the academic affairs, and that many faculty don’t create norms at the beginning of their courses around, how are we going to engage in a respectful way, because we know that there’s going to be contentious topics when disagreements, that’s, you know, by the nature of what we engage when we get engaged in inquiry, that’s inevitable, there’s going to be multiple perspectives, multiple edges, how are we going to do that in a way that honors and respects who everybody is in this learning process? So learning those principles, and if you notice, nothing that I’m talking about, is about learning about every single kind of identity and social justice issue. That’s helpful. But it’s supplementary to these core principles and approaches and competencies and skills and facilitation skills that really help faculty create that holistic, inclusive learning environment. Yeah.

Jaime Washington
I think that the, the need for our faculty to really kind of think about, so what is it? As Amer talked about in terms of backwards design, what do we want students to learn? Right? So again, not just what is it I want to teach? But what do we want them to learn? And so we, once they leave this class, they will understand no more about be able to these things, right? And then what are the best approaches, given who’s in front of me to deliver upon that? Right? And so what impacts that? Right, again, we go to, so their understanding of what it is they need to do their deliverables, all of that’s in the syllabus, how we’re going to do this in this environment? And how do we engage when stuff comes up the skills to do that, that requires that we pay attention to? So So and I talked about it in this way, the four P’s the purpose, why are we here? Right? The people who are we doing it for the process and the product, right? So that what often happens is there’s focus on the key the product, here’s what’s supposed to happen, but not the rest of it. Why are we doing this? What’s the and far too little attention given to the people and the process, which again, connects particularly in, in the faculty role to pedagogy, right.

Heather Shea
Jamie, you mentioned a bit ago about how we, I use another P word pivoted really, you know, effectively during the pandemic, to this online environment. And as a faculty member teaching during that time, where all the classes were online, you know, in class discussions about difficult topics, took on a completely in the context was really different, right? So the process was really different students can turn their camera off, or stay on mute, you know, you have a completely different kind of online teaching challenge. So can you can you talk a little bit about like, you know, what are the applicable Teaching and Learning pieces that might relate to inclusive pedagogy in online environment? And you know, this, I guess, kind of for both of you, but, Jamie, you want to start with that?

Jaime Washington
Yeah, so, again, it goes back to agreements right? From the beginning, right. So recognizing, so what are the things that impact are in gaygent? In this context, right. And unless we’re simply creating a didactic experience, where I’m talking and you’re listening, right, so if we’re creating an engaged learning environment, where your perspective your voices, your take on what you read, or are learning matters, then you’ve got to pay attention to some things that in this space that impact that, right, who’s in the room? So what what is their? Where are they coming in from? Right? And so there are some things that, you know, so, you know, why is the camera on? Why is the camera not on the kit? Does the camera go off at a certain time? What’s the meaning that gets made in that moment? And what’s the impact of that, and what we will agree to do with muting and the all of the things that, in fact, impact the learning space and folks ability to learn and to engage and to be in that and what we, in, there’s been some great work around lots of that, in over the last couple of years, right, we had an opportunity to, to see some of the impact and, and it wasn’t easy. Just to flip, you know, some, some, some classes had had more practice with that, and teachers that had more faculty that had more practice with that, but most folks did not. And so we talked about what the impact was, right, of having environments that really were not engaged learning environments.

Amer Ahmed
I want to make sure we don’t lose something, just the faculty member benefits from all the richness that comes out exactly when students bring who they are forward. And, and then the faculty member learns, and is a learner as well as an educator and teacher in that process. And, and they gain perspectives that they might not have had, because it’s not necessarily in their experience. And that could impact their research interests. At the very least, it makes the course and less rote.

Jaime Washington
And as you name them, you’re there. And that helps it to be, there’s no way that you’re teaching the same course twice, right, and that you go in with a different kind of intention and energy. And then the that class informs the next class, and how you show up and what you know, and perspectives that you bring, and that you’re able to talk to, from more than just having read an article. Right? You’re able to speak to, as you’ve deepened your own learning and experience and relationships across those dynamics. Yeah.

Heather Shea
So let’s get into a bit about, you know, how do we do this? What are some, some activities or practices or interactive elements that will engage faculty? Because we were talking about like, that’s almost a meta conversation, right? Like, how do you teach faculty to do this using the same methods that we want them to potentially use in their classroom environments, it might be more hybrid, flipped backwards design, etc. So Amer to talk a little bit about the philosophy of the framework, you know, what are we talking about when we mean interactive? In a Dei, kind of faculty training experience?

Amer Ahmed
Yeah. And you know, of course, we’re not supposed to use training when they talk, right? So we can talk about benefits and development. And so I mean, you know, one of the things that I have slashed we have been doing is, is using online content, tools, asynchronously, individually, so that we can come into space together and have conversations in a way in which people who hold marginalized identities are not in the position of having to teach the people with the privileged identities, right? Because I think that’s part of where the in person dialogic co learning experience oftentimes becomes challenging, right? So if we’ve all we’re all coming into a space already having learned some principles, skills, competencies content, right, when we come into spaces have communities of practice, right, where we can have conversations of how does this show up in our department, in our environment, in our context, in our campus? And and then how do we translate that into good work into good practices? Where do we find successes? Where do we find challenges and being able to share that the learning with one another and to be able to create a departmental divisional school, college best practice culture? And the reality is that faculty listen to other faculty. And the more proximity they have to them and their field, the more they’re and view them as appear, the more likely they’re going to listen. When they hear a faculty member saying you know, it’s I tried this out this one Well, I had struggled with this, you know, I tried that too, and it went this way. Or, you know, I made this tweak, and it really made a big difference, you might want to think about that. So coupling content that alleviates the pressure on marginalized identities. And then having those conversations synchronously, preferably in person with one another, to talk about how do we translate that into our practice?

Heather Shea
I love that.

Jaime Washington
And again, connected to that, is the the notion that there isn’t one right answer, right. But the learning is in the engagement, and paying attention to the tools that, that you that we’re using, in order to create the engagement, to show up in our responses to hold the container, right? For the learner and the learning to occur to, to show up in a way that allows the classroom the class the students to see you as learner as well. So again, this holding is both and I can show up as a learner, as well as one with some continuity expertise that I’m here to deliver. So I don’t lose status, if you will, I don’t I don’t give up or abdicate my responsibility as a faculty member, because I show up as a learner as well. Right part of the skill that I show up in is this the show up and how to be a learner in the spaces as well.

Heather Shea
I think where you’re naming is like, everyone benefits, right? I mean, everyone benefits from in a learning environment, whether it’s in a DEI, you know, development, flash training experience, or in the classroom, that the faculty then is going to, you know, employ some of these skills, like, as both the learner and the student, you know, in each of those spaces, you know, and I think, you know, as somebody who counts learner as one of my five, you know, strengths and the strengths finder inventory, you’re like getting new knowledge, right? And then like, Aha, moments of, Oh, I could do this differently. And I love what you said, too, about having folks talking to one another, and sharing like, oh, well, this didn’t work for me. And then how do we want to take this back to the, to the faculty in our department who didn’t get a chance to come to this training today? And then we get to be the, you know, maybe the teachers in those spaces like faculty meeting, here’s what we here’s what we did in this in this DEI development session. There’s some real power I think, in that.

Jaime Washington
Well, and I think the other piece of that is good teaching with a DEIB lens impacts all teaching.

Jaime Washington
Is that when DEIB stuff comes up?

Jaime Washington
Yes. Yes. And, you know, sometimes I experienced Well, that’s not that’s not my content, right? I’m not having to teach that. I like, is anybody in your class like? No. So are you teaching people right? No matter how you’re teaching them virtually, online in person, if you’re engaging with other human beings, the pedagogy, the skills, the competencies, the capacity to do it with a diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging, lens impacts, all teaching. All subjects, yes. Okay. Chemistry, I’m teaching physics. I’m teaching English. And I’m teaching theology. All of it with a DEIB lens and pedagogy, pedagogy, pedagogical approach, matters. It enhances,

Amer Ahmed
and I want to reinforce that everybody benefits from this, just because you hold a marginalized identity doesn’t mean you know how to teach inclusively. Everybody, we all have to work on this. We’re not going

Jaime Washington
to put up can I put up a reaction?

Heather Shea
Again, for the people,

Jaime Washington
for the people in the back? Absolutely. And, and what we see in so many places, as Amer as naming is some folks just you know, that’s another way that the, again, the old ways of doing has continued. So yeah, so I’m the black Purdue person in the English department, or in chemistry, and so I should teach the one subject that’s related, right, that has a, a race lens or a gendered lens or, or whatever. It’s like, Well, I haven’t had any learning around that or any practice. Why is it that I need to be the one that’s teaching that and so just because I often will say just because you are doesn’t mean you understand. So doesn’t mean You’re the one that needs to be teaching.

Heather Shea
Yes, yes. 100%. And I think that that also relates to like, Associate Dean for DEI roles. Right? Yeah. You know, are we are we elevating the one faculty member in the, in the college, you know, who has an eye? Or are we only elevating folks with those identities? So I think there’s a really key piece here. The other thing, Jamie, that really struck me that you said that I also want to like reiterate for the people in the back is that this is not just a social science, college of education, arts and humanities topic like this, transcend disciplinary content, and focus in that really does benefit all students across the entire campus, regardless of what the faculty members kind of content expertise is. I love it.

Jaime Washington
The, as we add, the importance of this, is we talk about, you know, all of the strategic plans, and all of the diversity value statements and all of those things, that it does require an investment in a prioritization of this mattering. So we are navigating what we’ve only got 16 weeks, okay, you know, we always we got 16, we’ve got 15 weeks, we got nine, we got a quarter, however we’re doing it. And so how do we factor in the creating of the container for learning, which we should be doing anyway, right. And not just see that this is taking away from the content that we need to be teaching in that amount of time.

Amer Ahmed
And I want to speak to that systemic operationalizing. Because you know, as a CDO, as a sitting CDO, who is about to release our university DEI strategy, every unit of our institution developing their own inclusive excellence plan. For the next five years, the key to our process, has been my vice provost for Faculty Affairs, being deeply committed, making sure that they’re going to partner with us on delivering some of these opportunities for our faculty, our provost, leaning in and making it part of the criteria of evaluation of our Dean’s, our Dean’s, therefore, many of whom are already committed, but understand that it’s part of how they’re evaluated around our academic success goals of the provost, right? And that translating into prioritizations, within schools and colleges, and therefore departments within those schools and colleges, you know, so So and therefore, it’s not me and my team’s job to do it for everybody. It’s, it’s, it’s our job to work with, as a collaborator together to be able to build this capacity with our faculty.

Heather Shea
Yeah, that’s, that’s another kind of just retweet moment of like, if, if it is just one unit job is just the CDOs job. Like we are not institutionally embedding di practices across so like, yes, you cannot like you and your team. And no campus CDO should be tasked with that infusion across without the buy in. I think that’s really, really, really critical.

Amer Ahmed
Yeah, we experienced a lot of people asking us if it was okay to do this, okay. I’m like, you can do whatever you want. It’s your unit. We’re here to partner with you to help you do it and implement it into your part, the institution, we’re here every step of the way to support you. But at the end of the day, y’all are going to have to be the ones that end that do it. Yeah. Go to every single department and make it happen. It’s impossible.

Heather Shea
Yeah. You know, I am so grateful for this conversation today. It was exactly what I needed as we’re getting ready to kick off this semester. And as as is typical, we’re always kind of running a little bit short on time. I just want to end with, as you all know, our podcast is called Student Affairs Now, what are some of the your kind of summarize thoughts about what you’re pondering questioning troubling you now and then, what are some ways that folks can follow up with you if they’d like to extend the conversation, either social media or other ways to contact you? Jamie, do you want to kick start us off?

Jaime Washington
Sure. I think one of the things that I’m inviting as we move into this 23-24 academic year There is, there’s a lot of we can’t now because the Supreme Court said, right? And there’s a lot of tension around and, and so what I want to just invite particularly those of us who are on campuses who are charged with the work by title, and are then also so that’s, we get paid for the work at one level, right? And then those of us who are charged with the work by identity, right? What I want to just say what I’m pondering is breathe, just and to take care of oneself. Because you matter, the work matters. But the work doesn’t matter more than you. So that, that, that is what’s center for me. And, you know, the the other pieces that we have to get back to what’s our mission as an institution, what’s our values, and to be able to be clear about the value baseness of this work. And, and so an institution, an organization that’s not clear about its mission and its values is never going to be successful. So that’s, that’s where we’ll be putting our energy tying all of what we’re doing back to why do we exist? Right. So if we’re clear about that, all of the government, Supreme Court, legislature, anybody in the world, it doesn’t matter. We just stay mission and value and vision driven.

Amer Ahmed
Yeah, yeah. I want to go off of what Jamie said, because I worked at University of Michigan post prop two for seven years, I was immediately after Proposition who was best is when I started. And it that principle and approach was so key to iterate and innovate within that context. And so now, it was funny, I ran into a colleague from University of Michigan, who I knew from back then, recently, and she was like, Y’all are just joining us? Well, we’ve been dealing with for a long time in California, and we’ve only had a few states to to innovate with on this. And so now, it’s all of us. Now, I don’t want to erase the fact that there’s specific challenges and specific states. But but the reality is that we’re going to have to figure this all out together, right? But But defeatism isn’t going to get us anywhere. It’s just not. And I know that that doesn’t mean and that’s why the breathing is important. Because it’s hard. But we got, you know, but as we prepare ourselves, once we breathe, let’s get together. And let’s figure this out together.

Heather Shea
Well, I am so grateful for your time today. We’re gonna put links information, contact information, in show notes for folks. Thank you so much for your contributions and for just as I said, the like great conversation at the beginning of the semester for all of us. Also, just sending quick, heartfelt appreciation to our producer. Nat Ambrosey, thank you for making us look and sound great. Thanks also to the sponsor of today’s episode, Equip offers an affordable, scalable and customizable hybrid learning, training platform for staff and faculty in higher ed. It moves individuals and institutions beyond compliance and lays the foundation toward systemic change. Equip consists of three parts, one core modules and frameworks around navigating diversity, to identities and their historical context and three, inclusive pedagogy for faculty. Equip is built around competencies that are developmental, and adaptive across a wide array of contexts, identities and circumstances. Take a moment to visit our website and click on the sponsored link to learn more about Equip. And while you’re there, if you are listening today and not already receiving our weekly newsletter, please visit our website studentaffairsnow.com and you’ll be prompted to enter your email address to join our email list. Again, I’m Heather Shea thanks again to all of our listeners and viewers. Make it a great week everyone.

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