Shadia Sachedina
And, you know, one of the things that a good friend of mine has coined is the word custodial leadership, which is an idea where, you know, women of color come in with their, you know, brooms and dustpans. And that sort of allowed to clean up the house after the person before them has created a big fat mess. Back to messy. So, you know, you reach a point in your career where you’re like, I don’t want to be the cleanup gal, right?

Mamta Accapadi
Welcome to Student Affairs NOW, the online learning community for Student Affairs educators. I’m your host Mamta Accapadi. Student Affairs NOW is the premier podcast and learning community for 1000s of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays. Find us at studentaffairsnow.com on YouTube, or anywhere you listen to podcasts. This episode is sponsored by Leadershape. Go to leadershape.org to learn how they can work with you to create a just caring and thriving world. This episode is also sponsored by Vector Solutions formerly EverFi the trusted partner for over 2000 colleges and universities. Vector Solutions is a standard of care for student safety, wellbeing and inclusion. Stay tuned to the end of the podcast for more information about each of our sponsors. As I mentioned, I’m Mamta Accapadi, my pronouns are she her hers and I am broadcasting to you today from Austin, Texas. Austin, Texas is situated on the unceded ancestral homeland of the Jumanos, Coahuiltecan, Comanche, Lipan Apache, and Tonkawa peoples. So about today, this is a dream come true moment for me. To have the opportunity to be in shared space with Desi and South Asian pioneering women, educators and student affairs and beyond is just such a gift. As you all may know, this is my first episode with Student Affairs NOW and I wanted it to be an episode that honored the wisdoms celebrated the triumphs, owned the privileges and acknowledged the traumas of our lives and lineage journeys. I’m equal parts nervous, excited, and just plain in all of this moment and this collective of women. Dear sisters, thank you so much for being together today, in this episode of Student Affairs NOW, and welcome to the podcast. So before we are as we’re beginning, can you begin by telling us a little bit about you and your current role? And for because we are a collective large collective, I’m going to call on us so Smita.

Smita Ruzicka
Well, first of all, I am also just delighted to be in the presence of my sisters, who gives me strength, inspiration and courage every day. I love you all. And I’m just so excited about the time that we’re going to spend just sharing our stories. My name is Smita Ruzicka. I use she her hers pronouns. And I, for my job work at Middlebury College, where I serve as the Vice President for Student Affairs, Middlebury, Vermont, sits on the ancestral lands of the Avanity nation. And the land and waters here are, you know, are and tell the story of the Abenaki tribe that and they call this Ndakinna their homeland. Perhaps the most important job that I have is being the mother to five year old Rohan with Zika. And so he is definitely someone that teaches me so much. And I’m excited to share just my stories today.

Piya Bose
Hi folks, my name is Piya Bose, excuse me pronouns she her hers. And Mamta, thank you so much for putting this together. This is something that you know, when I started my career, I could never imagine being in a space with this many of these folks, and this is special. This is really special. So thank you for bringing us together. My pronouns are she her hers, and at about a month excuse me, I will be starting as the Assistant Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs at UC San Diego, which I’m very excited about and for the time being. I’m joining you all from Huntington Beach, which is the ancestral lands of the Tongva and Achejeman folks. So again, thank you and I’m excited for this.

Mamta Accapadi
All right, let’s go to Sumi.

Sumi Pendakur
Good morning. Good afternoon. Good day everyone. It is so good to be with everyone. I don’t know if you can see my smile. I’m just so happy right now. And you know here based in Burbank, California right outside of Los Angeles, and with you today from my home in Burbank sitting on Gabrielino or Kizh Nation, Tongva, and Chumash land. And I was running around this morning is slightly frantic, trying to get my two little ones ready and out the door a nine year old or almost 10 year old Shashi Veer. And my four year old, she just turned four a few days ago Shama Shakti. And by the way, I probably should have given her name like maybe Shanti, or Sushma. Because the Shakti was in full force this morning, that feminine energy and strength and power so rushed into this room, and then immediately this room of the six of us and immediately just felt. And that’s a real blessing to be able to be in this space together. So my name is Sumi Pendakur, my pronouns are she hers, I most recently was serving as the chief learning officer at the USC race and equity center, working on the question of scalable racial equity and social justice. But two years ago, launched my own practice, someone conduct consulting, a very original name, but I love what I get to do working with corporations, higher ed institutions, nonprofits, foundations, all across the country in the world now. So it’s been a real, real joy to transition that part of my career and draw from, you know, 20 years, as many of us have in the field to now apply all over. So great to be here. I’m looking forward to the smack talking portion of today, by the way.

Mamta Accapadi
Awesome. That’s beautiful. Okay, next Shadia.

Shadia Sachedina
Hi, everyone. So happy to be here. so honored to have the opportunity to be among people who really deeply have impacted me in my own journey in higher ed. Thank you. Just really happy about about this opportunity. So sShadia Sachedina I’m currently pronouns are she her hers, and I am speaking to you from my home in Westchester, New York. And where I live, and where I’m situated is actually in Mamaroneck. And so I live in Mamaroneck in Westchester, New York and situated on the unceded ancestral homeland of the Lanape, Mohawk, Siwanoy,, Wappinger, and Mamaroneck peoples. And I’ve lived in New York for the last 30 plus years of my life, and have worked in student affairs higher education in New York for almost three decades as well. Most recently, until about six months ago, I was serving as the Associate Vice President for Student Affairs and the dean of students at FIT with a State University of New York. And currently, I am serving as a consultant with Keeling and associates a higher education consulting firm that works with colleges and universities to create change for learning. I have a 20 year old she just turned 20 Last Saturday, who is a sophomore in college at NYU, not too far away from me, thank God, I get to see her and have coffee with her and she still likes me. And so we get to spend time together. And I get to see what life on the other side of, of Student Affairs is like I’m in higher ed adjacent now. And so I get to see things from a different perspective and really excited to be here and have this conversation with everyone.

Shadia Sachedina
Thank you. Shruti.

Shruti Desai
So y’all Shruti Desai. She her pronouns, serve as associate vice president of student engagement, student affairs, one of those long titles at Duke University in North Carolina, Duke University and Durham sit on the occupied lands of the Haliwa-Saponi (HALL-i-wa suh-POE-nee), Sappony (suh-POE-nee), and Occaneechi (oh-kuh-NEE-chee) Band of Saponi. And still got lots of work to do there. So yeah, this this squad is mighty and I it’s a great way to start the week and start the morning. And as I enter kind of, you know, this new role and the new role of parenting that we’ll be taking on soon. These are the mighty group of women that I will be turning to for advice and have often turned to for the big life moments of what in the world am I supposed to be doing and helped me figure out a path so I’m really grateful for this group.

Mamta Accapadi
Ah, wow. So, again, thank you all so much, Shruti. I think you actually let led us into kind of my first set of curiosities or just moments of reflection, which is, I’m just going to borrow your words, this squad is mighty. And so can we just, you know, take in this, like, just take a moment to soak in this particular moment. I would love to hear from y’all. What does it mean for you to be in this space right now? You know, what do you see is the power of this group. You know, what does Yeah, just what does this mean for us?

Sumi Pendakur
I can start us off. So the two words that come to mind really potently are representation and possibilities. And anyone who knows me knows that when I talk about representation, of course representation matters, but I often say that representation is the floor not the ceiling of everything we need and desire in the world, but the reputation representation does matter. And so I was thinking, just a couple of weeks ago that 2002 was my very first NASPA annual conference in Boston. I was not dressed warmly enough. And, and this wasn’t there, right?

Mamta Accapadi
No, that was not.

Sumi Pendakur
Really broadly speaking, you know, as, as a really proud Asian American, South Asian American, desi woman multiple of those spaces were not there, meaning people simply weren’t there. So you know, there’s been I think efforts inside and outside right to cultivate that. And so to be able to sit with a total of US six women who have some somewhat quote unquote seniority or seasoning in the field, if you want to call it that, right?

Mamta Accapadi
Masala we have masala

Sumi Pendakur
Frankly not all of us. I think there is some meaning to be held in that just and that that, that relates to this question of possibilities, right. And so for all of us, we have striven to be something for others. And we have also sacrificed sometimes along the way in, in sometimes ways that one hopes that today’s and future generations won’t have to right. And we’ve also been possibility models for multiple communities, right? Not just what you visibly see in terms of Desi women, but also queer women, women with children, you know, women who are tackling the questions of racial injustice or systemic injustice in our institutions. So representation and possibilities, that’s what, that’s what this space means to me today. So thanks for posing that question Mamta.

Shruti Desai
Like the, for me the wisdom in this space just like collective years, but like, also the ancestral wisdom that each one carries? And how we think there’s, you know, yes, we’re all South Asian women are, you know, desi women and the way each one of us approaches life is different, but you see pieces of our culture in each one of the ways we take it on. And I think that’s the beauty of this group is we’re not a monolith. Even though sometimes folks confused each one of us, for each one of us. But the I think there is this beauty in that of we hold our the values of our identities in different ways and navigate it differently. And I think that’s a really cool thing to see. And there’s no one way to do this. And I think that’s freeing in a lot of ways.

Smita Ruzicka
I think for me, the words that are coming to mind are visibility, strength and courage. Because I think you should these and Shruti’s point, I think so many times. I know, I know, for sure. monka. And

Mamta Accapadi
this never happened.

Smita Ruzicka
Because there are so few of us. You know, there is this sort of assumption that we’re, we all have the same experience. Yeah. And there have been many spaces. And I, you know, I sort of was joking, but I’m really not, there have been many spaces where some of us have been mistaken for the other, right, which happens a lot to folks from underrepresented identities. And it happens a lot, especially when there’s literally just a handful of us. So I’ve been in spaces where I’ve been called Mamta or Sumi or Sruthi, and I’m sure that has happened to all of you. And so for me, the importance of visibility in our own identities and our collective identities is what’s powerful about this group coming together, I think the experiences of women, women of color, and then you lay on South Asian women, or, you know, desi women is one of oftentimes invisibility, and to be able to say, No, we are here. And we are leaders on our campuses, in our in our areas, and we are mentors. And that we also have a different we’ve all had a different path and a different story is really important. And I do think for me the courage and strength piece is to oftentimes deal with some of that nonsense, and I call it nonsense. And to, you know, to respond with it in our own ways, but also to to really understand what it means to be in spaces where there’s lots of assumptions placed on you, where you have to really say no, I’m here and I am different than what you’re thinking I am right. Or, you know, oftentimes us being the folks who are oftentimes doing the labor, the emotional labor, the work behind the scenes, but who gets to be the face of sort of the credit that gets taken. So I think that’s what’s powerful for me about this group coming together.

Piya Bose
Yeah, this is an interesting time for me, right? Because I am getting ready to start a new position. And I can think of not that long ago, I’m talking like a handful years ago, spending time with women in this group and being like, oh my gosh, one day, I want to be like them, right? Like huge eyes. And holy crap, how do I get to be like these women? And what’s fascinating for me right now is, as I share folks, with folks about my new upcoming position, is I see that same look in folks eyes, when there is excitement, there’s pride. And then it also comes back to me a little bit of like, Oh, crap, I can’t screw this up. And I’m having a little bit of that right now. Right, there’s some pressure that comes with being one of you. And knowing that, you know, even if they get my name mixed up with one of you fantastic people, I would be honored for the record. And there’s still just so few of us that if, if there’s something major that I screw up, I know that it is going to have an impact on the entire community. And those those young folks who are looking up with their big eyes saying, I want to do this someday, and that, that feels like a little bit of pressure. And it’s good to know that I’ve got you fabulous women in my life to help me with the transition. And the next step. So I know, I’ve got folks looking out for me.

Mamta Accapadi
What’s interesting, right, because, you know, Smita talks about invisibility, Piya, what you kind of described as hyper visibility, and I feel like it’s the, the being hyper visible and invisible at the same time. And, and, and finding both the joy and the stress like, you know, it’s not as clean right, as you just articulated.

Shadia Sachedina
You know, I would also add on to what folks have been saying, is that, coming to the United States as an international student, which was my which is like my story, 32 years ago, 1990, I’m Pakistani was born in Pakistan grew up in Kuwait, came here, right during the invasion right before, and sort of really, like jumping right into that whole idea of, you know, service, like, how can I be of help, because of what I looked like, and what I kind of represented, sort of just feeding right into that automatic way of people thinking about how someone who’s South Asian from Pakistan or India, I’m just going to mush the two countries together. Should be and completely being a passive, passive participant in that thinking. And I went along with it thinking, you know, that’s what I’m supposed to do. I’m supposed to be of service I’m supposed to help. And it was only after many years of working in the field and doing the work, and still doing the work and attending conferences. And finally seeing people like you sort of come through the ranks and realizing Wait a minute, it doesn’t really have to be that way. Like it there is space to say, no. Yes, I will serve but I will also do it on these terms and with this face and with this voice and be able to be okay with saying this and that. Where I think in the past, it was almost like, just shut up, go sit in the corner and do your work and keep quiet. But now there’s it’s almost as permission. And I and I think being in this group back to the original question is it’s given me permission to be okay with speaking up and standing up and talking more loudly and more defiantly about what should be happening because I am part of this country too. And I think it took me a while to realize that I’m more than just a guest or I’m just here by the good graces of the American government. Because, hey, look, I got a green card, or Thank you, God, I got a green card, and oh, look, five years now I can get my citizenship and I can take my oath of allegiance. Thank you, God. But now it’s like, well, I am not at this place. And I do have a voice and I do have a right. And a duty to speak up. I think it becomes a duty and not justice. Should I maybe?

Sumi Pendakur
Both for Shadia by the way, who want to have erased the scar of partition?

Mamta Accapadi
So I’m absolutely, and leading us into really, I mean, I think what moves me here is we’re all unfolding into, you know, we’re unfolding into ourselves as we write our own stories, and to be able to do that with one another is really, really meaningful. And so as we kind of all reflect on that, you know, who we’re all trying to be, what comes up, you know what comes up for you As you navigate that journey

Shruti Desai
I can jump in a couple of things. I think it’s interesting when I got this job, you know, my mom, when I told my parents, my mom, was where is Duke? And I was like, oh, man, okay. And, you know, like, she doesn’t know this world of higher education and these prestigious schools and which is cool. But she also and then I told her about the job and you know, salary and all that. And she said to me Shruti when is it going to be enough. And I was like, as a kid of immigrants, like, this is what I have been socialized to do is grind, make the money have big titles. And so for my mom, you know, we grew up like middle class low income. For my mom to say that it for me, I had to really reflect on like, what am I doing here? Have I sold out to this like, capitalistic climb the ladder kind of thing? Or do I really believe in what I’m doing? And that there’s still days that I, after a long day, I’m like, what in the hell am I doing? And is it worth it? And now becoming a new parents and all of that. So I think for me, it is, you know, on learning this like immigrant kid of immigrant narrative of, I need to honor my parents with all these sacrifices and grind and do all these things. And for my mom, who’s like, the hardest working person, I know, to say, Shruti when is it going to be enough? I think, was really, for me a moment of like, Man, I need to reconsider what my values are and why I’m doing this. And I don’t have an answer to when is it going to be enough? I don’t know what enough is, but I need to really consider to think about that. So I think that’s what I’m trying to be is, what’s my enough? And in all sorts of ways, and thinking about how to honor my family with that answer as well.

Mamta Accapadi
That that notion of kind of enoughness of being is such a powerful one. Because, you know, I join you in that I mean, there’s this, where did we receive the messages right to achieve achieve achieve. And yet, we just literally a few minutes ago talked about being present, and knowing the impact of what that is for, for a generation of folks that, you know, just like we didn’t have that. And we see folks recognizing our visibility, what it means to them, but it’s always to go back to, which obviously, I’d like it, the message is always serving the other, like serving others serving others. So it’s the combination of messages as we’re trying to become who we’re supposed to be as interesting.

Shadia Sachedina
And I think the question also arises is, how can I be truly useful, but also be of use to me, so it’s, it’s, I know, my purpose here is to, is to is to be of service and to do big things for, for helping others. But how can I do it in a way that is also going to be fulfilling to my way of living and to Shruti’s point, you know, to, to my own values? And what I believe is, is true, so you’re not necessarily just serving the serving for the money or, or, or for the outward successes that life sort of promises, you know, like, the Lifetime Achievement Award, the the, you know, the big bonus at the end of the year, if we even get that it? Is it more can I be more fulfilled than just those outward extremities? Because in the end, I’m really not very happy when that that’s the case.

Mamta Accapadi
Yeah, absolutely. So can so we can Oh, go ahead. Yeah,

Smita Ruzicka
I was gonna say, I was going to add the, I think the whole like, am I enough, gets even amplified, and nuanced and complex, as we think about our identities as South Asian American women. And I specifically say South American, because, you know, like, surely I was an international student. So I was an immigrant coming here, right. And, again, we don’t have monolithic experiences. But you know, I’ve spent most of my life here. And I’ve had to balance sort of the they see American, they see American identities, and there are so many days where I just feel like I cannot get the right balance. So this constant place of feeling imbalanced. And part of that experience is, you know, as I hoped should the talk, I thought about my own father, and his reaction to me getting the job at Middlebury. Prior to Middlebury I was at Johns Hopkins and believe me when I got the job at Johns Hopkins. It was the first time my parents really didn’t care or didn’t understand what I did. It was Johns Hopkins and everybody in India knows Johns Hopkins and so they were like my daughter’s at Johns Hopkins. You know, and she’s the Dean right she As Dean of Students, when I moved to Middlebury, you know, I got a promotion, I became a VP. First of all, my parents didn’t know what that really meant. So having to explain to our families, what we do is complex enough. But then I was moving from Johns Hopkins to a place, no one had really heard back, you know, where my parents are. And then when they found out Vermont, and the only way my father could center, his understanding about Vermont was, he knew about Bernie Sanders. So thanks, Bernie, my father, okay, she’s moving to someplace legit, right? I share that story. Because, you know, I think my father who would serve the United Nations, for 40 plus years, always gets really panicky and anxious for me whenever I make a move, because in his mind, as many of you, you know, the right path is to stay with that one place, you know, be loyal. Get your gold watch, or your plaque at the end of your retirement. You know, in India, you have this concept of your provident, but Providence fund your retirement, right? So just even wrapping their heads around, this is complex. And, you know, for me, it’s when I think about enough, I’m always thinking, are my parents proud? And I know they are. But if they don’t understand my decision, sometimes, it’s really hard. And then on top of that, you know, I think as a South Asian woman, always having this message sort of burned into your psyche that you have to take care of everyone. And what do you do when you play outside of that role, and my that, you know, I have a partner, who has been the primary caretaker of our child, he spent time, you know, at home when our son was born, he is the primary, you know, person that gets called to get him out of school, he cooks, he does all the grocery. And that’s, that’s a huge reason why I can do what I do. But for my family, that’s always been really hard to have my husband be the person who’s doing these things that really were are supposed to be things I should be doing. And so I’ve had to sort of always precariously balanced about how can I be the best professional, but also, how can I be the best wife, daughter, mother? And what happens when I’m not playing those traditional rules?

Smita Ruzicka
I think one of the things, you know, when we were prepping for our initial conversation, one of the themes that kept running through was the amount of unlearning that so many of us are attempting to take on at this particular point in our lives. And I think that, you know, many of us from all different communities go through periods of unlearning, relearning, discovering whatever you want to call it. But that the unlearning is is really powerful when you have the space to be able to engage in it. And it’s also destabilizing and scary sometimes, because you’re not necessarily sure what it is you’re quote, unquote, learning to words, right? And so there’s this unnecessary space of floating, of figuring out well, where do I land on what rules I hold, like Smita that was talking about or what identities I carry? Or how I present myself in the world? Or how do I want to, you know, advance that high achieving mindset that my dad cultivated in me, et cetera, et cetera. I have a slightly different story in that I come from an academic family, my dad’s a professor, he went on to become a dean at three different institutions. And so he’s really inculcated in me and my brother and a lot of you out in the field know my brother to Vijay Pennebaker, also in student affairs. But he’s not a Desi queen, so he can’t be here and and inculcated the idea of changing shaping and building institutions. Right, whatever context I was in, I carried that. So whether I was an assistant director, all the way to becoming a vice president, that idea of shattering shifting shaping building was really deeply ingrained in me. And that is hard work, hard work, especially if you’re going up against various stacked systems that are built in baked into so many of our institutions. My dad is also a Marxist, so taught me a lot about the political economy of our institutions. And that helped me to understand how these landscapes change, shift or don’t shift. But But I will say that, that, bring it back to this question of who am I trying to be? I think at this particular moment, as you know, 46 year old, desi woman mommy of two, I am very deep in that place of unlearning so many scripts and places that I fallen back on and trying to figure out, well, where do we want to make choice and maybe I will return to some of those because those are more choice based scripts versus cultivated scripts. And so yeah, I’ll put that out there.

Mamta Accapadi
What’s interesting, right, Sumi as you talk about this idea of floating weave, I’m not trying to sound like the movie it, but we all float in different way. And, you know, so I think about how we float and navigate within many of y’all have already brought this up kind of within the different identities that we present or manifest and have, how how do you well come to understand those identities? You know, we’ve talked about different contexts. But, you know, I know that from our for as we were prepping for the conversation, just thinking about our racialized identities, right? And how that plays out in hyper visibility and visibility, how that plays out, and how we use our voices in spaces, how certain expectations might be ascribed to us. So I would love to hear, you know, how did you, you know, come to your own understanding of racialized identity? When did you see yourself in a racialized context? And how does that kind of play out for you in, in your day in and day out realities now?

Piya Bose
I think I, so I was born and raised in the US. And my parents first immigrated to Miami, where there are lots of brown folks, not all brown folks are Indian, that took a long time for me to learn. Not very, you know, folks would come up to me and start speaking in Spanish, assuming that I could speak Spanish. And I would look at my parents and I would say, Oh, they’re speaking Indian. Right? This is when I was little. And I, at that moment, I don’t think I knew what was going on, right. But I remember I have those memories, which means that they were points of importance in my life and growth and development. And the honest truth is my parents made a solid decision to to anytime we moved, we were always in relatively diverse communities. There were always Indian folks around, there was always temples around. And then I took the leap, and I moved after college to rural northern California. And, and that was a whole new experience for me, quite frankly. And, you know, I lived all these places where I’ve always seen brown folks, black folks, Indian folks, temples, and then I moved to a community that absolutely bastardize is our culture to right, these are, these are a lot of hippies up there who take our religion, our culture, our traditions, and appropriate them in some of the worst ways. And I lived in that community for four years. And that was my first time living in a rural community, and that white of a community and every single day, I felt my race and ethnicity. And, and the, you know, on the other flip side of it is for the students, my presence, just my existence right there. And my my brown skin being there made a difference. That was a hard thing to have to balance and figuring out, right, the personal and the professional, right? Why I do this work. I do this work to support underrepresented students and communities, right. Education changes the world, when there’s access and success involved, and to know where to go and to do that in a place where I can also be myself in a way that I don’t feel like I’m being attacked everywhere I go is also a challenging situation. If there’s a conflict there of where do I go? What do I do? And how do I do this? And I don’t I don’t know what the answer is, if any of you do, please let me know.

Smita Ruzicka
You know, I, for me, I was an international student. I had lived around the world again, because of my dad and his work with the UN. And so, you know, I felt that I had been, I had grown up around a lot of different people. I had gone to an international boarding school in India. And so, you know, we didn’t really talk about diversity, we lived in a very diverse place. And coming to the US, I ended up in San Antonio, Texas, which, you know, that’ll take a whole other podcast to unpack. Coming to San Antonio, my notions of Texas, were informed by Walker, Texas Ranger, and Dallas, I was not thrilled to come to Texas, I’ll just say that, but my sister was here. But I just remember to think about race. I felt like I was hit over the head with who I am in terms of a racialized way. This was the first time in my life where I had to check all these boxes where I had to talk about my race. And as I looked at the options, the one I was told that I had to pick with Asian American and that made no sense for me. You know, If there was a box that said, brown, I’d happily check that. And again, similar to, you know, Piya, I landed in Texas, but there were a lot of brown people. But most of them were not Indian or South Asian. But I was told you have to check the Asian American box. And as I started my college career, as I started doing more research into Asian Americans, I continued to not see folks that look like us. And so I sat, and I really, I felt uncomfortable with having to check that box. But everywhere I went, you know, race was such a huge part of who one person was, you know, and again, as a counselor, being one of very few folks in mental health, you know, whether it’s Asian Americans or South Asian, there was no conversation about mental health with Asian Americans or South Asian Americans. And so I felt, I’ve oftentimes felt that I’ve had to sort of learn, what does race as a construct mean, here in the US? And then where do I fit in? And even in those places that I’m supposed to fit in? How do I find myself? And how do I sort of connect to that identity? And also serve to, you know, be be someone in coalition with with that big group? Right? And that was a huge learning moment. So yeah, that’s,

Mamta Accapadi
yeah, you’re so interesting, because I didn’t have the words like, I didn’t have maybe the the identified words, I grew up in all black neighborhoods, through my childhood. So I’m just kind of accustomed to an environment where my environment was predominantly black. And my father worked at an HBCU. So like, literally my world is predominantly people of color, predominantly black. And then, of course, socially, within sin, the South Asian Indian communities. And so And yet, there’s a lot of anti blackness kind of written right into the story and narrative. And I know that, you know, we’ll, we’ll talk about that as well. But I think about, you know, like, always being in this, this, you know, in black white spaces in some ways, but also not being able to, like, I think the first time it was where I was going with this, that I recognized that I needed to use my voice differently. Truly, was was 911. So in 2000, I mean, I knew that I had the skills to use my voice, I could facilitate things, right, there was a skill set that I had. And I almost feel like I was like, Oh, that’s nice Mamta, and she’s moderate. And she can have these conversations in very friendly, fluffy ways, right. And then when 911 happened, and there was not the same, and not even the same, a comparable level of alarm for the mental health, for the violence, right, kind of in my very real lived experience in ways that I hadn’t personally experienced before. It activated something different in me about the way that I needed to speak up, Smita, to use your words coalitional spaces in ways. And also, where are people joining me and us and our collective communities as all of this is happening? Well, you know, where is that coalitional approach as well. So so it’s kind of messy. I mean, as I hear you, I’ll reflect I’m, I need to take ownership of that messiness, in my own upbringing,

Sumi Pendakur
I will say think that messiness has that messiness is the is totally the right word. Right? There’s very little that is like flat or a nuanced, a nuanced about any of our individual relationships to the construct of race, and then how it plays out in moments of crisis like 911, or in the day to day, you know, wherever we live, whether it’s up in Humboldt State area or in San Antonio. I similarly grew up in a largely black neighborhood right outside of Chicago. The first suburb outside of Chicago is a town called Evanston. And so interestingly, you know, my parents immigrated back in 1969, probably very similar to some of your parents as well, for those of us who are poor born here. And some of my first memories of growing up there were about being very Indian, very distinctly Brown, in a hyper Black, White binary. We lived in a more sort of white, slightly more affluent part of town for my first few years growing up in the north side of Evanston. And then when my parents could finally afford a house, it was in the south side of Evanston, which was less affluent and more black. And therefore, my school was more black and had various kinds of diversity. But this was the most prominent, you know, sort of feature. And we used to go back and forth a lot because my dad’s research he’s a, he’s a film professor. And so we used to go back and forth a lot to specifically to Karnataka and South Indian economy to go and be rooted there for many, many, many months. So I was very, very Indian right I starting in grade school middle school, right, I’m talking about in the 80s and early 90s Wearing Indian So, but in that black, white binary really being constructed very much as as other. And many, many South Asians did not want to live in Evanston. Because they would openly say, well, there’s too many black people there. Because the anti blackness in so many of our communities is rampant and through the roof, right. While we do have so many, particularly in our and younger generations, and even older generations, coalitional activism, there is this rampant ugly streak, which is, you know, so tied to Hindutva. So tied to castism, so tied to brahminical tradition, so tied to, you know, race, hatred, etc. But they would openly say, No, we don’t want to live there. We want to live in Oak Park, Arlington Heights, Schomburg, etc, for those of you know, the north side of Chicago. But I will say that was sort of a crucible place to learn. And it wasn’t always nice, right? Some of the worst bullying I experienced was from some of the black students, right, so this isn’t all a nice and pretty story of, oh, black and brown, like recognize leg game recognize game? No, that wasn’t necessarily Yes. It was some kind of, because people are always looking for who to punch down on. And we see that in sort of the body politic and their current moment, right. But I will say this, again, growing up in the family I grew up in for my dad to be able to sit down at the dinner table and to be able to explain racism, class stratifying Why do people choose to look for someone, quote unquote, lower than them on the social hierarchy? Help to put a cognitive structure over some of the real pain that I was experiencing doesn’t take away the pain helps to understand it, right. But my honest real politicization was built on top of that in college. So I got involved directly in my freshman year with the struggle for Asian American studies. So interestingly, bookending, from what Smita said, I came into my Asian American identity strong at age 18 19. Because I saw that as a political identity, not my cultural identity, but a political identity, where we could build coalitions to understand ourselves as racialized visa via US nation, state policy, practice, etc, which gave me more of a window to figure out Ah, how do I now relate to fellow communities of color queer and trans communities disabled community? So it was sort of this, you know, like you said, messy, winding, bouncy kind of journey around the narrowest aspects of identity to the sort of breadth and depth of coalitional identity, but like, how that’s how that’s been like a wellspring that’s fed me for, you know, 25 years now. And continues to inform as I learn and unlearn. So yeah, I’ll stop there.

Shruti Desai
Yeah, appreciate that piece around coalition building, to me is the other piece we don’t anti blackness is very prominent in our community. The other piece that we don’t often think about is the homophobia that runs rampant in our communities. Yes. A number of queer have the best wife in the whole world. And the number of folks who are like, oh, you should go talk to Shruti she’s queer Indian oh, you should go talk to Shruti And I have a family that accepted that loves my wife that is stoked about being grandparents. And the again, this monolith of like, yeah, because you’re getting weird it of course, you have a shared experience. And I can understand I can have empathy, but like, there’s so many folks who are closeted, there’s so many and even when I came out, I was like, I can’t be Indian and queer. So for the sake of my like, me wanting to be queer and wanting to embrace that identity and find a partner, I was like, let me put the Indian kind of nests of this really important cultural piece, I grew up in a very Indian household aside, and just be I mean, like, sell out to whiteness, and all of these other things. So I can also be queer. And I think there’s a lot of pain in that for folks that we don’t talk about. And thankfully, you know, my dad, like you about to my parents, I was in my mid late 30s, mid 30s. And he said, you’re Indian women, their whole reason they raised daughters is so they marry someone who’s good. And that’s the value of being a mom and I was like, this is some buck loss, right? Like this. And I was like, Dad, I’m marrying one of the best humans on the planet. Like y’all don’t know, you know? But I think there’s so much of that in our like, this is what a woman’s was. We’re supposed to marry American Indian doctor man Gujrati All right, like, lady, doctor, lady. All of our ceremonies are for men and women, you know, like, it’s just. And I think there’s so much of that intersectional. Like, we can have empathy for one another, we often choose not to, we can coalition build and give all of us liberation, and we often choose not to. And so how do we think about that in in different, more healing ways? There’s a lot of work to do around that.

Shadia Sachedina
I wonder whether you need to get older to get there, though, you know, because I think, at least for me, you know, I had to go through that painful understanding and experiencing it and being passive about what I was observing and being a part of, about needing to have life sort of come around and smacked me really hard a few times before I woke up, and I said, Oh, God, now I can’t hide anymore, I have to do something about this. Right? So I wonder whether, like, I wouldn’t have become who I am today, if it wasn’t for those painful experiences, coming to coming to this country, it’s like people are so keen to put you in a box, right? They want you to check off that box that says asks you whether you’re Asian or Desi, or they don’t even have that, like they, they want you to classify yourself in a particular way, like, well, who are you? And what is your name mean? And why do you have to call yourself that? And why can you change it because it’s easier. So it’s almost like, you’re kind of stuck, going through these paces between your you know, when you when you’re old enough to be conscious, to maybe later in your years, when experiences come along, and sort of shift your thinking. And you’re almost forced to think a little bit differently, because you’re so unhappy with how things are going, that there has to be a different way to see it.

Mamta Accapadi
I feel, I mean, I feel that, you know, as I as I hear all of us reflecting and Shadia most recently in your reflections, I again, going back and thank you Sumi for like uplifting the term messiness. I like where I honestly need to still like I just so much healing, is I have anger around ways that I feel like I have been used as a tool of anti blackness, even in my own leadership progression, right. And at the same time, also not recognized for the very good and amazing ways that I’m able to do anti racism work. And so like, it’s not enough, even even in those spaces in ways and I mean, I don’t again, so back to if any of y’all have a solution around that, you know, consulting, you know, I’ll come to you, but like, this is like this is I think, the space where I feel like I never have agency of who I get to be. I mean, I guess I do what we do, but people are always defining, for us our identities, I don’t know, if you all have had those kinds of experiences, anyone want to share, like, you know, in what ways maybe your identities may have been defined for you or how it situates you?

Sumi Pendakur
I think people don’t expect, I can bet that from a lot of us, people have not expected us to voice a critique, and that we open our mouths and voice a meaningful critique of a structure, a process, an outcome, a decision. There’s some whiplash that people have, right. And I think that is that’s such an accurate description Mamta, of the way the hyper visibility and invisibility plays out at the same time, right? How we can be commodified as tools of white supremacy in one breath, and then completely rendered sidebar on the next right. So our own experiences with racialization with subordination, minoritization, are quickly erased when not convenient, or highlighted when convenient, oftentimes at the expense of other minorities or marginalized communities. And it is so constantly I think, I choose not to walk those lines, I think many of us get placed in those lines. And so we’re not just asked to do our work, like do your job or you know, the 16 jobs we always have done. But also at the same time to shatter the expectations and the boxes that people have put us in or externally defined as the rules or the lines were supposed to walk right to, to make to make to make anti racism work more palatable, or whatever it might be. Right. Yeah, so I just I really resonate with that that point that you brought up, right, this, the liminality of our identities, allows us and sometimes to be used if we’re not actively pushing against it on really a regular and daily basis. Right and that not just, that’s for everyone right now, for everyone. I’ve worked with white people, black people, yes. Latinx, folks, right, fellow Asian Americans, that that’s been packed. And of course, every community goes through them, and their own ways that, you know, we’re talking about us. So I think there’s some ways that we can allow ourselves to be done dirty, if we’re not conscious and awake, looking for how we’re being manipulated.

Smita Ruzicka
And I think even in our field of student affairs, I find oftentimes, sort of this, you know, hidden Rule of, you know, like, I think with any any place, you know, as we have these conversations about equity and inclusion, and, you know, having more people at the table, I continue to feel that, yes, they are making room for folks of color. But even in those chairs that are being brought for folks of color to be at the table, somehow there’s only one chair for like that one Desi woman. And it’s, it’s actually really half a chair, probably because typically, they see man will probably get there first. Right. And somehow, there’s this unwritten but understood sort of quota, you know, of, okay, here’s the people of color. Okay, let’s make sure we have a lot of black and brown people. And by Brown, you know, we’re really looking at Latinx people. Oh, and then yes, we got to have the Asian Americans Oh, but yeah, that we need, like 1/4. And, oh, if someone that looks like us has already been at the table, well, then, you know, we’ve done our job. So we’re good, go talk to that person who was at the table, right. And I find that something that comes up a lot. And I’ve had to have very, very frank conversations with recruiters. When I, you know, when a recruiter will call me about a position, I no longer feel sort of drawn into their narrative of how wonderful I am. And I oftentimes cut to the chase of, are you trying to get a diverse candidate, because I don’t want to be just your diverse diversity candidate. I don’t want to be that finalist, you know, who bring some melatonin in. But really, you’ve already made up your mind about who you want to go with? Or, you know, it’ll actually be really good to have two women of color, but we all know, you know, it’s going to be the the black woman or so there’s this racial politics where we are, I just feel so many times that, again, to Sumi’s point, we’re just sort of placed and forced upon. And I have I am trying to learn ways of sort of saying no, I don’t want to play that role, right. Even in our professional associations. I feel like there are times when it’s like, oh, well, we’ve had this person do this sort of leadership role. But so there’s really no need for another South Asian woman to be at the table. Right. And, and we’ve got to find a way to sort of break that, you know, and I’ve come to a point where I am no longer interested in playing that game of trying to get myself to the table, I’ll just, you know, I’ll bring my own Folding Chair if I need to, or hell I’m gonna stand on that table and make some noise.

Sumi Pendakur
We’re actually bringing, you know, those rollout reed mats we have in our I’m bringing the mat

Mamta Accapadi
what y’all I’m literally sitting on the floor right now. Like so. I mean, I’m, there’s lots of floor space. I mean, yeah. So powerful.

Shadia Sachedina
I think I think also to Smita’s point, you know, I have run the danger of being very typecast as the cleanup gang, right? The person who comes in and, and the person who tends to be Oh, yes, she’ll do a great bang up cleanup job. So let’s hire her to come in and clean up the mess. And, you know, one of the things that a good friend of mine has coined is the word custodial leadership, which is an idea where, you know, women of color come in with their, you know, brooms and dustpans. And that sort of allowed to clean up the house after the person before them has created a big fat mess. Back to messy. So, you know, you reach a point in your career where you’re like, I don’t want to be the cleanup gal, right? It’s, it’s that whole channel principle that, you know, we talked about a lot about a live channel, meaning, you know, blue in Hindi or in Urdu, and it’s a whole idea of I don’t want to bring my child anymore. I’m glad you’re giving me the money that I can buy a Dyson and don’t have to use a little brush and pan, but I’m gonna Yeah, I’m kind of done with with having that typecast role. Just because I don’t look a certain way or I don’t speak a certain way or I have an accent or I wear a nose ring like. Can we please grow up already and really bring in someone who can speak truth and that you actually want to hear the truth and do the truth. As opposed to just sort of paying lip service to what you think you should be doing, because everybody else is.

Piya Bose
Those are the pieces that make me feel used for my body and my skin and my culture right there. There are times and places where that happens all the time, right? But they just want us there as figure heads, right? We’re not there. Because once we open our mouths, and we start with the with the resistance or the critique, you know, dare How dare we use our critical thinking skills for the record? That’s when the pushback is well, now you’re being too brown right now. You’re being too Indian. Now. You’re now it’s too much. Just have your physical place, be there and keep your mouth shut. Right. That’s how that’s how diversity works.

Sumi Pendakur
You know, what’s in my head right now? Because Shadia brought it up. This is what is literally streaming through my head to principle?

Mamta Accapadi
Maybe Janet Jackson will join us. So as you know, as we’re talking about, you know, I love hearing that, you know, as we, you know, again, unfolding into ourselves acknowledging, you know, the different privileged identities that come with, with our bodies and skins and identities. How? How do you reclaim reclaim your abundance now? And how do you find your people

Mamta Accapadi
Sumi found me at Encore, I’m just gonna say,

Piya Bose
The first Desi person I met in student affairs was, if many of you know Raja, and we Raja was coming down an escalator, I was going up an escalator at a conference. And we just looked at each other. And Roger was wearing a scarf, obviously. Right. So going, I was going up. And I was like, how do I find them? How do I find this person? And so I ran around looking for the person with the scarf. And I found them. And I think that was the beginning. Right? Once you gotta start connecting with folks, somehow, and conferences are a good way. Yeah,

Shadia Sachedina
I think that’s the best part too, right? When you see someone who looks like you have, like, you can just forget the hidden agenda. It’s like there’s no, there’s no formality there. It’s just like, Hi, how are you are? Namaste or Oh, my God, I’m so happy to see you. Like there doesn’t have to be any sort of fake. It’s just automatic.

Mamta Accapadi
Well, I think it’s funny, right? So I think about, you know, the stories and even seeing it growing up in my childhood, right, like, my mother stopping somebody at like a grocery store. And like, oh my gosh, like, and then me doing the same. I think it was to Anchieta. And I feel like I was she was sitting outside. I was like, Are you my kind of brown come with me, right? I’m like, I think I might have scared her when we first met. But then at the same time, like I’m also I mean, just reflecting back. I think probably y’all heard the story. But at the the last NASPA conference, there was a there was a early career professional who came up to me and said, What do I call you? And I was thinking like, my Mamta or like Dr, but like, you know, I didn’t understand what she was asking. And she was like, do I call you auntie and it was actually it was really endearing to me and you know, I was like yes what but it was just like the I guess what I saw in her voice was that desire for affection and connection right? Like I think that that’s what I was looking for like where are the us’s for us. And so to be the US is for us

Sumi Pendakur
and respect right like the yeah reference beautiful thing that she was just she was trying to honor you and what to her so even though I tease you don’t let her call you auntie. She brought that up is because it’s a it is a sign of her respect. Some

Shadia Sachedina
have called me up off or you know, DD or auntie always you know, I call Well, we all call our aunties like always so many years older, and God help me if I hit that age because I want to be

Smita Ruzicka
You know, I find I find my joy in addition to just seeing our community growing at every NASPA, I mean, that’s so joyous. For me, the everyday places where I find joy is actually to see our students you know, and to see, they desi students on our college campuses. is thriving and finding their voices and having, you know, beautiful loud voices that, you know, I didn’t have. And when I was in college, and you know, like one of the most joyous moments for me this past fall here at Middlebury was, you know, for the first time, I couldn’t do this last year when I was here, because of COVID. I opened my house for a Diwali celebration. And I planned to do that, you know, for, you know, an Iftar dinner. But to be able to open my house, it was challenging to find good Indian food and Middlebury, Vermont, but we do have an Indian restaurant here. But, you know, we invited about 50 students, and they all showed up. And, you know, they asked if some of their friends could come. And I invited some Indian faculty. And I got this note from a mother in India, who son is a first year student, and she wrote this note that just brought tears to my eyes. And she said, knowing that my child had someplace to go on Divali on his first Diwali, that was going to be away from home means the world to me, right? And so to see the joy, where are you know, I had students sitting on the floor, we were listening to Bollywood music, and suddenly there was impromptu dancing happening. Those are the moments that fill fill us with joy as well, because at the end of the day, you know, we’re doing this work for for for our students. And, you know, while there might be only one of us, at a time, a lot at a table, our students are coming in large numbers to our colleges. Yes. And it is so important for them to see us there.

Piya Bose
There are more international students from India than anywhere else in the world coming to the US for higher education. Right, our not only our presence, right, but the knowledge we have from our lived experiences, both folks who are children of immigrants and those who are immigrants to this country, right? I think we have, we have a lot of work ahead of us, honestly, in terms of supporting our students, the way you are, you have been able to Smita. And you know, I’ve had similar experiences where you know, the Indian students are just so excited, right? They’re like, yeah, we’re having a Diwali party, will you come? And what can you can you tell us the best restaurant and all of this right, that part is so much fun. Yeah. And we have responsibilities, I think, as part of our roles to ensure that our campuses are also ready, ready to be serving and supporting this large volume of international students in an appropriate way. And they’re, you know, we were talking about anti blackness earlier. And you know, what I, you all know, this is something that’s been on my mind is, how do we work with international Indian students to understand the concepts of anti blackness, it’s very different for folks who were raised in this country or have lived here for substantial periods of time. And we’re talking about brand new students coming to this country. And we, we have to work with our Indian students. And it’s not just about the experiences of black students of those campuses, right. This is also about them going into the world and world careers and so much more. Right. And just, and being good humans and knowing, right, a lot of this is just understanding and acknowledging it, to know that these behaviors exist within oneself. And I don’t think most of these folks are coming here maliciously, but it’s, it’s those learned, learned behaviors and acts and thoughts that we have to think Sumi you were talking about earlier that how do we help folks unlearn all of this? Yeah.

Mamta Accapadi
Well, I see. I think, though, you know, as I hear you reflect on that. Absolutely. That is our responsibility. And I think, and many of us do engage in, you know, dei and social justice education efforts on our own campuses. We also do that in a non global context. Right. So I think we, as our institutions have a responsibility to talk about anti blackness in a global way. Not I mean, yes, you know, international students, you know, are coming here. And so they have to understand the geography, the context of the geography that they’re in, but for them to understand that we should all understand a global context of anti blackness. Right. And, and I think that’s where sometimes I think that our DEI initiatives and practices are not as strong as they could be right on our campuses and in how we engage in our practices.

Sumi Pendakur
Let’s be really explicit, I think that the American exceptionalism plays itself out through how do you eliminate the constructs of the discussion of race and racism are in the US? I think that not always but so many times the discussion teaching and transformation about racial injustice, racial inequity falls, so flattened so short because of the narrowness of the parameters with which in many US based racial justice and Dei. Practitioners are engaging with it. It is so US centric and misses them on so many different levels. And it really is it is extremely frustrating because for the vast majority of, for example, Asian communities, two thirds of all of our communities, all Asian communities, South Asian, East Asian, etc, are still immigrant communities, right? So then holding that sort of global lens, about teaching training, facilitating requires for US based practitioners to actually shatter their own the way they’ve American exceptionalism. And so whether you’re a black practitioner, white practitioner, Asian practitioner, whoever, there’s some unlearning that needs to happen there and some real pushing beyond some of the narrow parameters that it’s been constructed under which I find really fun.

Mamta Accapadi
Yeah Bringing in the lightness here. So in the so much work to do, we could talk for days and I know that our time is is slowly coming to a close. How do you sit in cultural in doesn’t have to be cultural spaces, but cultural traditions or practices or what you do to lift yourself up and honor yourself amidst all of the heavy things we’ve talked about?

Shadia Sachedina
I think forums like this are deeply, deeply powerful for me, they really bring me a lot of joy and what is the word you know? Like they give me a lot of peace. What is what is the Hindi Urdu word for peace? Yeah, I feel a lot of peace in these conversations, because I’m with people who, who get it but who also bring a different nuance and a different kind of understanding, which helps to shape my perspective and makes me grow up a little bit even more from what I hear. So it’s, it’s really staying connected to other folks really, it’s through the connection

Sumi Pendakur
I’ll say a form of cultural joys I grew up on a steady diet of Indian movies. So and I know that Mamta and I share that probably a couple of the rest of the have the best memories and I still I try to you know, watch Indian movies with my kids too. And being explicit, but calling them Indian because we watched Hindi films, Bollywood movies, like movies, tamil movies, and movies, Malayalam movies, because India has the largest film industry in the world, and we’re so blessed to have that for all its problematics. But that shit is good, y’all. I have the best memories of going to, you know, East West video and divan Avenue and Chicago and Atlantic video and getting those fifth generation videos. Do y’all remember the camera? Oh, yeah. Bootleg? The on the bottom screen. You’re like you can’t quite see because I’m talking about 80s and early 90s, y’all. And that’s actually how I learned to learn Hindi we speak on it at home and Hindi entirely by watching Hindi films. So and it turned out it all played out nicely because I married an actor. So filling my destiny. That brings me times of joy. So I’ll be watching Amar Akbar Anthony again, at some point.

Mamta Accapadi
Sumi called me and started singing the songs like a couple of weeks. Like, yeah, yeah..

Mamta Accapadi
I mean, you know,

Sumi Pendakur
Politics. That’s one of those places, right? I turn off my brain. Yeah,

Shruti Desai
yes, we have. Oh, my stuff there. Yeah. I think for me, it’s the, you know, reflection of the folks who have come before many of you on this call, but also like my grandparents, and my you know, and all those struggles that they’ve gone through to make sure that where I am where I am, but also the the, the youths that are coming after us. Yes, right, that I have students who are that I’m here and they’re like, Shruti we need you to do better we got it. Yes. And this is inequitable and and I saw I love the both ad right? Where I would have never pushed back on a on a quote unquote, elder and now they’re like, We love you. We can go speak at and all these things aren’t equitable. So just like hoping in who’s coming.

Mamta Accapadi
Oh, wow. Well, I’m so grateful to all of you. And I know again, as I could talk to you for days, maybe we need a part two at some point. So I’ll be calling you for that. But for now, thank you so much, my dear sisters, Smita, Piya, Sumi Shadia, the Shruti, for your presence, your ancestral wisdom, your life stories, your spirit on this specific episode of Student Affairs NOW, thank you all for paving the way not only for our profession, but also truly for our collective communities overall, by demonstrating your ways of being and knowing that I can never say it enough. I love you all so deeply, I need you to know that I, you know, on our journeys, maybe you have felt this way I have at times felt very, very alone and very lonely. And to be in this space, like with with all of you, is a reminder, not only for myself, but for everyone else out there, we’re not alone. And, you know, just holding on to each other has been one of the greatest gifts and blessings in my life and journey. With that, I want to take a moment to thank our sponsors again. So thank you to our sponsors Leadershape and Vector Solutions. We appreciate your support. Leadershape partners with colleges and universities to create transformational leadership experiences both virtual and in person for students and professionals. With a focus on creating a more just caring and thriving world. Leadershape offers engaging learning experiences on courageous dialogue, integrity, equity, resilience, and community building. To find out more, please visit leadershape.org/virtualprograms or connect with them on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn. How will your institution rise to reach today’s socially conscious generation? These students report commitments to safety well being and inclusion as our most as are as important as academic rigor when selecting a college it’s time to reimagine the work of student affairs as an investment not an expense. For over 20 years Vector Solutions, which now includes the campus Prevention Network, formerly known as EverFi has been the partner of choice for over 2000 colleges, universities and national organizations. With nine efficacy studies behind their courses. You can trust and have full confidence that you’re using the standard of care for student safety, wellbeing and inclusion. Transform the future of your institution and the community you serve. Learn more at vectorsolutions.com/StudentAffairsNow. Much love and a huge shout out to Natalie Ambrosey, the producer for this podcast who does all of the behind the scenes work to make us look good and sound good. Thank you so much, Natalie. If you’re listening today and not already receiving our weekly newsletter, please visit our website at Student Affairs NOW and scroll to the bottom of the homepage to add your email to our MailChimp list. While you’re there, check out the archives. I’m Mamta Accapadi, much love and gratitude to everyone who was watching and listening. Please make it a beautiful week that honors your soul and spirit. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for being here with us today.

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