Deepa Iyer
Yeah, I think I would say that my work has evolved quite a bit. And a lot of that is the recognition of well being practices, to be honest, you know, and yeah, so I was, as I mentioned many times, like a frontline responder, yeah, most of my journey. So when there were crises and community to think about what what is a campaign, what is the response? What is the policy, right? How do we bring people together to talk about it. And I spent a lot, most of my time doing that. And I think I’ve recognized around probably, like, at the 10, eight to 10 year mark, the eight year mark of doing that, that I was kind of numb, you know, I wasn’t like responding with the same level of energy, or the same level of, I think, rigor or ideas that I had before. And it was because I was feeling exhausted and fatigued.

Mamta Accapadi
Welcome to Student Affairs NOW the online learning community for Student Affairs educators. I’m your host Mamta Accapadi. Student Affairs now is the premier podcast and learning community for 1000s of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays, find us at studentaffairsnow.com on YouTube, or anywhere you listen to podcasts. This episode is sponsored by Leadershape. Go to leadershape.org to learn how they can work with you to create a just caring and thriving world. Today’s episode is also sponsored by Symplicity. A true partner Symplicity supports all aspects of student life with technology platforms that empower institutions to make data driven decisions. Stay tuned to the end of the podcast for more information about each sponsor. As I mentioned, my name is Mamta Accapadi My pronouns are she her hers and I am broadcasting today from Austin, Texas. Austin, Texas is situated on the unseeded ancestral homelands of the peoples I’m really excited for this conversation. Today. I am joined today by globally recognized activist and scholar Deepa Iyer. Deepa is a weaver, a frontline responder, a storyteller and a guide. Through her work at the building movement project Deepa creates narratives provides trainings and facilitates networks around social change and solidarity practice. Her political and community homes include Asian American, South Asian, Muslim and Arab spaces, where she spent 15 years responding to the backlash of September 11 attacks. Deepa served as executive director of South Asian Americans leading together also known as SAALT for a decade and has also held positions at race forward the US Department of Justice’s Civil Rights Division, the Asian Pacific American legal Resource Center, and the Asian American Justice Center. Her first book, We To Sing America, South Asian, Arab, Muslim and Sikh immigrants shape our multiracial future, received a 2016 American Book Award. In 2019, Deepa received an honorary doctoral degree from the Chicago School of Professional Psychology, an immigrant who moved to Kentucky from Kerala, India. When she was 12, Deepa graduated from the University of Notre Dame Law School, and Vanderbilt University. As we engage in this conversation, and learn from Deepa’s life, journey and wisdom, I am especially excited to celebrate the launch of her second book, which I have right here with me social change now a guide for reflection and connection. So we’ll we’ll definitely get to great conversation. So I’m really excited about our conversation ahead. But let’s go ahead and get started. So Deepa I’m so excited, like, this is like a dream come true to be with you and community. I’m so glad for to join you, in community on our podcast today and Student Affairs now. So welcome to the podcast. But before we begin, yeah, can you tell me a little bit about you in your current role?

Deepa Iyer
Yeah, well, first of all, I’m so glad to be here, Mamta, I was so happy when you reached out, I feel like, you know, especially both of us being South Asian women, it’s so important to support and encourage one another. And you’ve always done that. So I appreciate you. And it’s great to be talking to folks and talking to you about issues that are affecting young people and educators around the country. So, uh, look, my point of entry, I guess into this conversation is that I am someone who’s pretty steeped in the nonprofit sector and in social movements spaces. And so I come into this conversation with the experiences of someone who’s worked in both local and national nonprofits and also in coalition’s and networks oftentimes, during times of crisis. So you mentioned the the post September 11 backlash, and so a lot of my work and what I have learned, really stems from understanding and assisting community members who faced hate violence, racial and religious profiling and surveillance over those, you know, the decade and a half after 911 and some of that those experiences are documented in a book that I wrote, which really was rooted in this sense that our young people had such a sanitized understanding of what happened in the wake of 911, and often an incomplete understanding. And so a lot of that book is related to, to kind of expanding the narrative that we usually tell. And so I come into the space, you know, as someone who’s done frontline response work, storytelling work, and also really clear about a lot of the privileges that I hold as someone who is who has cast privilege, who has education privilege, and recognizing that it’s important to understand how those privileges can play a role in, in sort of the way that we lead or the way that we connect with others as well. So I’ll leave it there. But looking forward to kind of taking a deeper dive.

Mamta Accapadi
Well, I love you taking us through the arc, particularly in over the last, you know, 15/20 years about how that journey unfolded for you. Tell me about what sparked even before that, like, how did you know what gave you clarity that this was the journey that you were gonna go on?

Deepa Iyer
Yeah, that’s a really good question. You know, I think some of it is, is rooted. And I think this is the case for so many immigrants, rooted in the experiences that my family had, when we moved to Kentucky, from Kerala, India, it was in the mid 80s. And, you know, at that time, in Kentucky, particularly, race was sort of really just looked at as a black or white paradigm was a binary. And so for, for me, you know, I had really no sense of my racial identity, I had no sense of understanding, you know, where I fit. But what was really clear to me is that I was an outsider, and I didn’t belong. And, you know, I think we experienced that in so many ways, like, what whether it was related to language access, or accent discrimination, or, you know, bullying and school. And so I think I’ve always kind of carried the sense of displacement and understanding what it means to be on the outside. And then recognizing that I wanted to do something to open up spaces where people, regardless of their background, were able to feel like they belonged. And so I think, for me, I’ve been on this quest of belonging for quite some time. And I have not felt a clearer, clearer sense of belonging that I do when I’m in spaces where people are really focused on creating change in their communities. That’s where I feel connected. And so it wasn’t like a direct path. But it was a path that I was pretty clear about in my mid 20s, by my mid 20s. And so I’ve not looked back since then, and feel like this is really like, my purpose, and sort of the way in which I want to be in the world.

Mamta Accapadi
I think it’s really inspiring, because I hear an acknowledgement of past experiences, right? That obviously, maybe inform whether it’s reacting to or healing of, you know, journeys that we may have been on, but that, that it’s an unfolding journey, I liked that you said it wasn’t direct, I think sometimes we think that we have to have absolute clarity in how we’re going to do social change, we have to have absolute clarity, we have to know everything all the time, right? This, this kind of notion of if I don’t do it perfectly, then that I’m gonna mess it up. And so I think, honestly, that’s why I was so excited about your social change ecosystem framework, because, you know, also, as someone having done this work, you know, as a career, there were, there was something about your framework a lot about your framework that gave me space to breathe and say, this is a way that all of us can find in our heart and a methodology even in our uncomfortable spaces, to find a way to enter social change. So I’ll stop talking, but I would love to hear what inspired the concept of the social change ecosystem framework.

Deepa Iyer
Yeah, no, I really appreciate you reflecting that back. And I’ll talk a little I’ll go back to kind of what you said as I as I talk about the framework. So this framework is, you know, honestly, the result of feeling like I didn’t know where I belonged, and it comes from that space. So I, the way that it even emerged for me was that I had left SAALT where I had been an executive director for 10 years and been really steeped in like the South Asian community spaces and really felt I didn’t know where I fit. And it was also the time period when, you know, the last administration was was really putting out a lot have policies that were harming immigrant communities, communities of color, and Muslims and the like. And so I felt this real sense of outrage almost every single day. And I also felt a real sense of overwhelm, because I was not, I didn’t know sort of how to plug in. And I basically looked back at like, where, you know, different spaces I’ve been part of, and I realized that folks, and organizations usually tend to show up in different roles, that when they’re connected, and when they’re a part of sort of a bigger strategy can really create change. And so that was really the impetus for it. You know, this framework is not, I think the way that that people are relating to it is, is really based on their personal experience, obviously, or their organizational vantage point. But you know, it’s also something that is in conversation with so many different styles of leadership and books and frameworks that have been written, you know, that that it builds on all of that. So I also, you know, really recognize that it’s in a much bigger context. But one of the things that I think can be helpful about this framework, and it goes back to what you said, is that I think it allows us you said something, like you said, it allowed me to breathe. And I think that what the framework can often do is help us recognize so we don’t have to carry or play all of these roles. And also that we don’t have to be so closely wedded to like one or two, just because we’ve done it a lot, right. And so even in my experience, I had always shown up as a frontline responder, but I recognized that it was taking a toll on me, physically and emotionally. Yes, and I didn’t want to leave any, I didn’t want to leave social change, or movement spaces or community because that’s where I belong. And so thinking about how I could perhaps be a guide, and mentor, other frontline responders, right is a way for me to still stay connected. And to still feel like I have something valuable to offer and not have to completely leave, you know, the community and the ecosystems that I care about. So I think it offers an opportunity to kind of flex different skill sets, learn different skills, and be in connection with others as well.

Mamta Accapadi
That’s beautiful. And I know your your referencing component parts of your framework, you know, as you as you kind of reference guide, or storyteller or frontline responder, can you share a little bit more about the components of the framework and how you think it can be useful for us as educators?

Deepa Iyer
Yeah. So to learn more, I would say you could check out social change map.com, where you could kind of see the framework visually and learn more about it. But basically, it has three elements to it. It offers an opportunity for us to think about what our shared values are. And so for educators, social justice educators, in particular, even, it’s an opportunity to think about, you know, what is it that we’re trying to convey what is important to us, you know, maybe it’s like complete histories or more access points inclusion, right, whatever the the shared values are. The second component of the framework is to think about the roles that we can show up as in terms of either educators or if you’re working with young people, right, what what they could show us, and they’re not there 10 roles that were invited to consider. They range from storyteller to visionary to builder, to experimenter, to healer, to caregiver, and so on, and so forth. And each of those roles has different characteristics, and also room to improve, right. And then the third aspect of this framework is that it’s premised on this idea that we are all connected, that we do better when we work in solidarity, rather than silos are really I think, lifts up and amplifies what we often hear from indigenous communities that were kindred that were relatives, right. And so recognizing that even in social change work, but it’s important to have those deeper connections, whether it’s between people or between organizations, as well, not to say that there isn’t conflict and that there isn’t disagreement, but it’s an opportunity to lean into that if it’s generative. So so how can educators use it, I think in a couple of different ways. One, it can be used as a teaching tool, with young people who care about social change and are looking for entry points to help them think through what are the roles that they’re naturally aligning with and who is part of their broader ecosystem. A second way is to use it as a mapping tool for, you know, the department that you work in perhaps. So, you know, if there are, say DEI task forces on campus, or if there’s an initiative around inclusion, or if there are multicultural centers in conversation with each other, it’s an opportunity to think about, what is our role visa vie the broader university or the broader institutional ecosystem? Are we disruptors? And many are right? And how do we disrupt in a way that can push the institution to take some bolder steps, for example? So those are just a couple of ways in which it could be utilized?

Mamta Accapadi
I wouldn’t you just sparked a whole series of probably what could be another podcast conversation for me and what you just said. So I, I haven’t played with the idea of organizations with their unique roles, either separate organizations or organizational entities, if we’re talking higher education within a university context, but so I pulled up, you know, your the the social change ecosystem map, you know, just just for my own context, and, and I’m looking at this, and I’m thinking, Yeah, I mean, if you know, that, sometimes I think offices think that, you know, they have to be all things to all people. So if you’re trying to engage in social change, and you’re the Student Conduct Office, you know, or your the Fraternity and Sorority Life Office, and I know, that may seem conflict controversial to say, well, you know, people want to write off certain organizations, but everybody has an opportunity to enter in a different way. I think, sometimes, particularly me and my dominant identities, I appreciate you naming yours. In my dominant identities, I feel like I have to enter full force in the same ways that members of those communities enter as well when maybe I need to step back, reflect and see with humility, maybe where my point of entry might be different. But you know, I think representatives of offices, like you know, an office could say, wow, we’re student activities, we might enter in the space of storytelling, because maybe our storytelling of different communities is incomplete. Rather, you know, then then maybe them being a frontline respite, maybe a frontline responder, maybe a counseling center, or multicultural affairs officer is better equipped and trained to be a more effective for frontline responder. And so together if we all recognize our roles, then then we are you said something that was powerful, we can be part of a bigger strategy for social change? So what are your thoughts on that? Like?

Deepa Iyer
No, you you, you totally, totally got it. Of course, you described it. So well. The framework is multi dimensional. Individuals can use it, but so can organizations and so can bigger networks and coalitions and task forces and even movements. And so exactly what you said, you know, I have worked with institutions of higher education, who will say, you know, we’ve got this kind of DEI, pledge and commitment. Yeah, so we have a lot of different entities in our institution that are part of this task force, right. And they all kind of have different things that they do. And so in that context, this framework could be used to one really get clear on what the shared values are when we say di, because those are just words that are buzzwords, you know, so like, how do we define what what does it mean to get there, right? What’s our boldest vision of what DEI looks like on our campus and practice? Well, how will the campus change when we get there? So that that is like a values conversation? A second thing that that could happen is that all of those entities that are part of this bigger, you know, push for DEI could, like you said, map themselves on the framework. And so it’s possible to understand that there might be some people who play the role of a visionary to say, this is, this is our North Star, this is where we want to be in five years. But to get there, you know, we often need builders and experimenters who can actually implement that vision. So who will play those roles? Right? And how are they going to be in contact with the visionaries and have that feedback loop? Who are the healers in the space because a lot of institutions of higher learning, you know, have been built on a capitalist or extractive model are often you know, basically taking over neighborhoods and gentrifying cities. Right? And so, we have to recognize that there has to be a healing process. You can’t talk about like getting to dei you haven’t recognized like past harm. And so who are the healers that were able to kind of bring into this conversation, who can make those things more clear and transparent. And then lead us through like a process of acknowledgement and accountability or whatever the case is. So that’s, that’s how a taskforce on DEI on a campus could make sure that it’s like, identifying its roles and its shared values and then implementing action steps.

Mamta Accapadi
I really I value that, you know, I’ve often thought about, you know, I still don’t know what I want to do when I grew up. And so it’s always toggled between Student Affairs and Chief Diversity Officer. And in this, you know, or chief diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, you know, the range of DEI offices. I really I hadn’t hadn’t thought about this either. But your idea of kind of using and leveraging this model as a tool to calibrate values before you go into a planning or Task Force operations, because oftentimes, when we do that, it’s we’re often reacting to right, there’s a task force that’s convened, because some reactive incident happened on campus, it usually isn’t, What creation are we in? It’s what are we reacting to, and now that we, you know, sometimes say, Okay, now we need to create, but if we were truly centering it around, you know, what is the world we want to create for the future, this model really allows us to center and not actually calibrate a set of values, aspirational values, and get clear about the methodologies. We want to engage as we’re going on that journey. So so it organizes us in a thoughtful way, which I appreciate.

Deepa Iyer
Yeah, and I think it’s not surprising. We do this in the nonprofit sector and movement spaces all the time, right, we assume that we all have the same understanding of what certain concepts mean, we assume that we all have the same political analysis. And it’s not the case. And that’s not something to feel badly about. It’s just, we’re all on a different trajectory of learning and unlearning. And so it and we don’t often take the time to pause. And I definitely, you know, this is a challenge for me too, because I tend to be the frontline responder, you know, who’s like, there’s a crisis, we need to act, let’s worry about everything else later. Right. But I think this allows us an opportunity, at least to have an initial conversation to say, why are we coming together? What is it that, you know, we believe in and want to achieve? And even if we don’t agree on everything, whether it’s values or political analysis, what is it that we have enough shared agreement around that we can utilize to iterate and experiment? And then let’s also just commit to coming back? Right. So like, you know, three months later, when the crisis perhaps is abated, we will come back and, and really deepen this conversation that we started?

Mamta Accapadi
Well, you, you mentioned something earlier. So connecting that to your current thought around, you know, how do we kind of shift our lenses based on some of the, the different identities we might share, right? So if I’m a frontline responder, and I need to take a step back, in what ways do right, the healers activate in a different way, or the storytellers or guides like, like that we can tag in and tag out in some ways, and which then allows us collectively to stay in it? Right. I’m looking back and I have to ask you the question. You know, when I began doing this work early on in my career, I felt like I need to take responsibility for the fact that I really lead with like, this litmus test model, like if you, if you don’t, you know, do XY and Z things, and you’re not XYZ, effective enough, and therefore just leave right now. And I’m not very proud of that. But I need to take ownership of that, in my very early kind of journey. And I think what you offer me is a way to heal through that. And, and to say, okay, like, we need to step in, we need when we need to do our own, whatever. It may not be healing, but well being the efforts that, you know, we have the opportunity to step in and step out I don’t think that I ever have felt that way. You know, in my prior work, and I feel like your model gives me permission to say, stepping away doesn’t mean you’re stepping out, it means you can engage differently. Any thought I mean, yeah.

Deepa Iyer
I said, By the way, I loved I loved how you framed that stepping away. It’s not stepping out. Yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, obviously, for those of us who’ve been doing work in social movements and communities for quite some time, we know that context is everything right? And things change all the time, and things change in our lives. as things change in our communities, things change politically. And so holding on to one role for like, 2030 years, I think it’s not only stagnant, you know, for the person, but it doesn’t really generate new ideas into our communities or our institutions or our sectors. And so it’s really important, I think, to recognize whether it’s burnout, or whether it’s sort of like, okay, we’ve been doing the same thing over and over again, and it’s not really working right. Whether it’s in effectiveness or whether it’s redundancies. I think it’s important to actually take stock of some of that. And oftentimes, the next step is we’ll have to like leave and like it’s not, you know, or we have to just completely change everything and overhaul everything. No, I think there are incremental ways to kind of address those realities by switching roles or stepping away or thinking of a different strategy for the organization or the institution to play. Right. Otherwise, I think we’re kind of we get really stuck and stagnant. And I don’t think that that’s helpful, especially when we’re trying to address really big issues, and, you know, create pathways for people and and build power.

Mamta Accapadi
Yeah, absolutely. So in my profession, positionally, I mean, I think many of us do sit in spaces, and it continues to increase, right, as we think about how our life continues to get more and more complex. We were seeing a lot of burnout in my profession across the board. What reflections might you offer to those of us who are working through burnout or trying not to burnout? Like, what coaching? Would you offer us as you think about this?

Deepa Iyer
Yeah, I mean, I think that this is such a live question. I’m not I’m not an expert on it, you know, at all. I would also recommend folks listening to or reading books by Laura Vander Nuit Lipski on trauma stewardship, she’s got the trauma stewardship Institute. And she’s got a podcast as well, because I think she offers and her guests offer really lots of good tips on this topic. But I think, yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, I think it’s really important. And the book that I just wrote has like a section at the end on sustainability and well being, I think that it’s really important to recognize, you know, one when our cup is emptying, and a lot of that sort of personal self awareness is so important. And then also recognizing, what are the factors that tend to deplete our cup? Or energy? You know, is it because of institutional values being misaligned with what we believe? Because that can lead to burnout emotional? Or is it because we are playing too many roles on that framework? And we need to actually take some action ourselves? Is it because we don’t have a strong enough ecosystem to support us? And what can we do to build that? So I think that kind of, you know, understanding of what is it that what are the cues? And I think we all know them, you know, we know them first. Yeah, absolutely. are feeling like that tug. So like getting more clear about that more rigorous about recognizing those cues? And then secondly, I think taking some action steps related to them, so that we’re not like, okay, like, there’s nothing and I’m just gonna have to write. So I think some of it is on us. Some of it is on. But I think also some of it’s on our ecosystems, right. And so what are sort of like institutional policies around taking care of staff well being? What are, you know, what are sort of the, the nonprofit, I know that nonprofit sector better, and I’ve definitely seen over the last few years, particularly with the pandemic, you know, that there’s more of a focus on healing and well being so whether it’s trauma informed supervision and more whether it’s sabbaticals or coaches being offered, right, or mental health stipends for folks in the nonprofit sector, these are all institutional policies that can be put into place and then I think each of us bares an onus, and recognizing how it is that we’re going to build out some strategies to, to to care for our well being as well.

Mamta Accapadi
So as you kind of reflect on the arc of your journey, you know, your your book came out this year, that just last month. How so even though it came out last month, obviously it’s been an arc of a long time coming, you know, to the creation and delivery of this book. Do you like how do you? Do you engage in social change work differently today than you did when you first started?

Deepa Iyer
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think I would say that my work has evolved quite a bit. And a lot of that is the recognition of well being practices, to be honest, you know, and yeah, so I was, as I mentioned many times, like a frontline responder, yeah, most of my journey. So when there were crises and community to think about what what is a campaign, what is the response? What is the policy, right? How do we bring people together to talk about it. And I spent a lot, most of my time doing that. And I think I’ve recognized around probably, like, at the 10, eight to 10 year mark, the eight year mark of doing that, that I was kind of numb, you know, I wasn’t like responding with the same level of energy, or the same level of, I think, rigor or ideas that I had before. And it was because I was feeling exhausted and fatigued. And so that is one of the reasons that, you know, I realized it was time for me to kind of move away from the organizational work I was doing, and create room for new leadership and new ideas, but also that I needed to kind of shift my own role. So I could stay in the space without feeling like I was just putting in like, 10%, or calling it in, you know, yeah, and shifting my role to storyteller. Why I wrote the book, shifting my role to the the first book I wrote, you know, was was really around that idea of being a storyteller, or to be a guide to other frontline responders, or it’s even being an experimenter, which is what I feel like I’ve been doing more recently with looking at different, you know, resources that might be helpful for people and different tools, has really energized me. Yes, and kept me connected to the work that I care about, but also feel like I really can bring everything that I have to it.

Mamta Accapadi
Yeah, thank you so much. It’s really heartwarming. I think, you know, I think, again, I just keep reiterating. I think sometimes those of us that enter social change, work, think that we have to operate at a certain force all the time, right? And just the continual reminder of, you know, our enoughness. And in the moment is enough, right? And so what does that mean to kind of hold sacred like that we are the tool by which we’re doing the work. And if you think of, if you think of holding something sacred, you treat it differently than Oh, it’s a check the box thing. So if I’m holding myself sacred, then I’m going to treat myself differently. To stay in this for the long haul. I want to go back to something, you’ve used this phrase a couple of times, it’s like a point of entry into the work. And there are pieces and you know, we don’t know each other very well, I’ve just, I’m a big fan. And so I, you know, there are some residences in our story, when you talked about growing up, you know, kind of in a black white paradigm. I grew up in Houston, Texas, and it is not that now. But when I was growing up, you know, we grew up in an all black neighborhood. And it was very much a black and white paradigm. And so I think my messaging and just how I understood myself, in the context of a black white paradigm, hearing you talk about your experience, helps me contextualize my own around where do I enter the race conversation, right? So as I grappled in my profession, where do I enter or there isn’t a place for me to enter? Because I might be taking up too much space? In a in a, you know, particularly in our geography rooted very much. Right in anti blackness, right? And so how do I enter that conversation? Without feeling like I’m taking up space with my story? Now I recognize Of course, it’s an interconnected story. So I guess my question is twofold. For those of us that may be socialized to think that we don’t have a space in the story. Or, or, and the other space where I find parallel is around my dominant identity. So the spaces where I hold privilege and power, how can I really embrace this framework? to tap into the courage? I need to do this work from my privileged identities? I think it’s I’m not gonna say it’s easier, but I see a through line in the inner in the identities that I share, that may have experienced oppression Spread systemically, but as a dominant identity person, so as somebody with cast privilege as somebody with citizenship as somebody with education, and so able bodied heterosexism, many of those other more privileged identities and not how can I really courageously use this framework?

Deepa Iyer
I love that question Mamta and it’s something I grapple with myself all the time. I think a couple of things are coming up for me, you know, I think when we talk about points of entry, it can sort of be couched in a couple of different ways. And you already mentioned them, I think one is identity. Two is privilege, and positionality. And third is experience. I often think about those three different buckets, when I think about points of entry of my own points of entry. And often it feels in some spaces, right, that identity trumps everything, and, or privilege trumps everything. And I think we have to be careful about that. Because when we do that, we sort of say, well, if you hold these sorts of identities you’re in, if you hold those sorts of privileges, you’re out. And I think that that, that is, I don’t think that that’s a productive or effective way of doing social change, or doing equity work, and inclusion work, right, because it goes against the values of inclusion if you prioritize certain identities or certain privileges, or whatever the case. But how do we but I think that’s important. And I think we also have to really balance that with recognizing that, and we talk about this, in our solidarity work all the time, that we have to really follow the lead of people who are most directly affected by a particular issue, or by a context, because they have experiences we don’t. And they also have solutions that we don’t write if we’re not part of that directly affected community in that context. So I think it’s a balance of points of entry, and our orientation towards, you know, making sure that we’re listening and lifting up people who are most directly affected. And doing all of that with a level of humility, and also a level of recognizing that sometimes we are going to make mistakes, and that there is some grace and possibility and redemption. And in learning and unlearning, think all of that has to be part of the containers that we create, right. But I do feel like this framework, I love what you said, like a courageous way to use the framework, it is a way to say, you know, I’m going to come in, I come into this space, like my point of entry into the space is, as you know, a storyteller. And I recognize, you know, the second, the second part of that is like, I recognize that I hold certain privileges in playing that role. And the way this is how I do it, right, this is the way that I do it. And so I think that we’re always you know, even with the the first book I wrote, which is a book of store, you know, follow up, and a lot of stories, right? I write about people who’ve experienced hate violence or profiling. And I don’t come from all of those communities, nor have I experienced all of those things, right. But how do we tell those stories with humility? How do we tell them so that people who are writing about feel like they’re actually participating rather than being the subjects of a story? Correct? What are the way you know, so So these are some of the things I think about when when I examine like, my own privileges, as well as my points of entry, but I do feel like there is a role in space for everyone. And I think we need everyone right now. And if we play sort of purity politics against each other, and, and, you know, do this kind of you’re in but you’re out. I don’t actually think that’s aligned with values of inclusion, nor is it going to help us win in the you know, these fights that we’re trying to fight.

Mamta Accapadi
Yeah. I really appreciate that. You know, this, like, you have, there’s a like, actually the beginning section, right. In your book, you say, I’m holding it up for folks in the visual, the time is now right. And I told you I was gonna do this so I’m gonna read from it. There’s so much like I feel like every line could be a story unfolded unto itself. And so I’ve just been I’ve appreciated reading this book a couple of times, like be engaging in different ways in different points of time. But I’m going to read from here and you know, this is begins a section of that You call the time on the clock of the world is right now. Because it goes into your, you know, position that we need all of us, as many of us in engaging in this work in any way that we can. And you talk about, you know, all of these overlapping the crises, right, all of these overlapping crises stem from similar root causes, anti Blake, anti black racism, imperialism and colonialism, extractive capitalist models and histories of oppressive treatments towards communities. And so what I when I, when I think about that sentence, you know, and when, when we were reflecting earlier, it was a whole, that’s heavy, it is heavy. And I also feel like that the reason like that underscores everything that you just talked about, like this is the why this is why we need to stay in? How would you encourage us to see the interconnections between these concepts, right, I didn’t understand the interconnections. Among these concepts earlier on in my career, how might somebody who’s entering in like, how would you encourage us to do that?

Deepa Iyer
Yeah, yeah. And that whole idea of the time on the clock is now is reflecting something that Grace Lee Boggs, who’s an Asian American scholar and activist in Detroit would always ask when she would bring community together, what time is it on the clock of the world, she would ask? And so the response that I give to that is like, the time is now right, like the time is, it’s ripe. So in terms of recognizing those root causes, I think we all recognize that the the inequities in our country and in our world, are created by certain root causes. Right? And I named some of them there. There are many others, but you know, everything from Yeah, misogyny, to racism to indigenous invisibility, you know, there’s so many different root causes. But your question is so onpoint, how are they connected? And I think that’s a process of, of learning. In many ways, I honestly think that that’s why I’m excited to be like, living and working in this moment doing social work, because I do think that those interconnections are more more visible than ever. I mean, even if we look at, for example, the pandemic, we can see, you know, you can see how black and Latinx communities experienced higher levels of illness and death. And why is that we can trace that to root causes of underinvestment in those communities, right, we can sort of look at how public institutions around health have been failing. And we can, again, like look at how an extractive model of health is at the root of some of that, right? So I think that those, when we look at some of these issues, we can see these different root causes interplaying and being interconnected. And the way that we respond to that is ourselves being organized in an interconnected manner, rather than looking at everything in silos. And I wish sometimes I mean, I hope, even as we are thinking about this response to the pandemic, you know, I often wonder, you know, is the healthcare sector in conversation with no, right other sectors or, and vice versa, because if we don’t do more of that, if we don’t build more connected and diverse ecosystems, to deal with these issues, we’re, I think, just constantly going to be in the cycle of putting band aids on things, and not really getting to the root causes. And so part of I think the challenge for the time is now is not to just respond in a band aid way, but to actually identify the root causes, and then figure out how we respond to them not just as one person or one organization or one sector, but as an interconnected ecosystem that cares about, you know, eliminating those root causes and cares about all of the communities that live in a particular area. I think that’s the that’s the hard work that’s, that’s ahead of us.

Mamta Accapadi
I’m chuckling a little bit because not not this is a very serious and important conversation. I love the wisdom that you bring to the space. This is my parents wanted me to be a medical doctor. So this is the one time I’m going to offer like a faux scientific reflection on what you and I think about you know, I think about the human body right and I think about you know, we talked about circulatory so right, like that’s what we learned in school circulator, the you know, the we have the all the different systems in the body. And yet, without the connective tissue, none of none of this stuff works. And I think I, you know, as I’m now understanding even more in our conversation, your model I feel, is a calling for all of us to rebuild and nurture the connective tissue. So that the rest of this systems actually are able to be as effective as they can be.

Deepa Iyer
Now, amazing because it is true because our bodies an ecosystem, too, right? Just as like the, you know, like the pond down the street is an ecosystem, the coral reef, are all ecosystems, and a lot of people have been talking and writing like Adrian Marie Brown and others about learn from nature, and how that understanding, you know, how, how different species or even our bodies work, that we can learn so much about how the interconnection and the interplay should be when we’re organizing ourselves into different institutions and networks. So there’s a lot there. And I absolutely agree. That’s why the word ecosystem is mentioned so much in my book.

Mamta Accapadi
Yeah, well, I think I love the intentional use of the term ecosystem. I mean, you know, you the resonance around, we are interconnected, and we are stronger, you know, we can advocate for a greater level of change, when we can hold on to one another. It just it really, it spoke to me, I feel like I wish I had had this tool when I was younger. And I’m grateful to have it now. Right. So there isn’t a timeline on this, that, you know, as as time is now, right.

Deepa Iyer
The time is now. Yeah. And I think, you know, I, I really want to encourage and invite folks to look at this as an individual tool that can help us build our awareness. But but to, but to take it a step further, right, it’s intended to increase our level of self awareness, to a particular end. And that end is that we take all that knowledge. And we actually then think about how we’re showing up in a broader ecosystem to bring about institutional change, and policy change and structural change. And if we, so it’s really kind of an overarching goal. And I think when people and organizations, when people in organizations are able to do that, I do feel like there are some aha revelations and even some changes in programming, fundraising. Talking about the organization, right, that can happen.

Mamta Accapadi
Absolutely. And I hear you talking about organizations, right. And infrastructures, I want to I don’t think it’s stepping back. But I want to reflect on probably my most salient identity, this is a surprise to zero people who know me, and that is the parent of mom. And so, so my, my daughter is in high school just started ninth grade. And my head is spinning. She she’s seen the book in the house, and she’s, she loves the map. So you know, the book comes with the open up map. And she’s like, well, what is this? And I’m like, hold on, like I haven’t processed yet, like how I want to engage this conversation with you. But like, as if you could offer reflection to me as a parent, like, how can I? How can I engage this with my ninth grader?

Deepa Iyer
Yeah, oh, my gosh, and so many? Yes, I love it. Yeah, I have a seventh grader. So I and I also, that the parent identity is super prominent in my life, too. I would say a couple of different ways. And I’ve actually, like used it with my own son. So it comes from personal experience. But I’ve also seen others use the map in ways with their children or as parents with young folks. So what is it is a teaching tool. So you know, one of the things that I have done with my son is sort of helped him understand the movement for voting rights that happened in the south, and particularly with the march to Selma. And we what we did was we combined the map and some work that was done through the Zen education project. Yep. Where we learned about like, different folks that were that were really part of that movement, right? And then I would ask my son to sort of say, well, what role do you think they’re playing here? Right? Are they builders? Are they visionaries? And we were able to, you know, so he would map out their names on the framework. And then there was, and then, you know, kids are like, they come up with their own revelations, right, where you just have to, like, put it in place, and they get there. And so he would say things like, well, it looks like everyone did one or two things to make the goal happen. Right? So recognizing that it isn’t just like one charismatic leader, that it takes like a movement and it’s over time, and this is how they were in connection with each other, even if we’re not reading that in the history books, right. But they actually communicated and organized and so so it’s a teaching tool to talk about historic historical events or historical figures in social justice. It can also be utilized, obviously, to think about oneself. So to, you know, think about, well, what are the? And I think this I mean, I’ve seen kindergarten teachers use this framework. Wow. It’s great. Yeah. To talk about like in our school system and our school ecosystem, how do different people play roles, like, you know, teachers are builders, and, you know, these students are the ones, you know, who are taking care of each other. So their caregivers, right, so there are different ways to even think about how to build those characteristics within ourselves that were that at a young age we might even be aligned with. And then as kids get older, to think about how they can play those roles in order to do their, like community change work, or volunteer work, or campus associations, and organizations, and so on, and so forth. So I think personal development and growth, personal awareness, history, teaching all of that.

Mamta Accapadi
I’m super, I can talk to you for days, we’re coming to the close of our time together, at least for the context of this podcast. I do have a question for you that I’m gonna have you think about, but I have a reflection that I want to share after what you just said. So my question for you is, how do you create joy in your life? And so kind of reflect on that, as I offer reflection, what you just said, My wish and my reflection based on what you just talked about, as a teaching tool, within our K through 12 ecosystems is, oh, my gosh, can Sesame Street pill please pick up your model and use to as a framework by to work with our young people? Yeah.

Mamta Accapadi
So So on this podcast, I want to manifest that Sesame Street picks up this beautiful model to talk with young people and parents who are watching around ways that we can hold on to one another in our ecosystem, but joy

Deepa Iyer
I really love that I really do. Yeah, it’s interesting that you, you talked about joy, because I was recently just sharing with some friends that for the next year, I really want to lean into this, this prose poem by Mary Oliver. Which is like Joy’s not a made to be a crumb, right? If you suddenly and unexpectedly feel joy, don’t hesitate given to it. And I think I don’t I don’t know about you. But oftentimes, I feel like I’ve been conditioned to feel like I’m not worthy of joy or not, to accept it, or to cultivate it, that it’s like something that, you know, feels like a guilty pleasure, almost right. And I think that I’m really pledging to myself to kind of shift that orientation, and to cultivate it, and then to share it, right. So for me, Joy happens in different ways that can be you know, like reading a book with my son, or, you know, watching my child with his grandparents, you know, there are lots of ways in which I think Joy kind of comes up, but to me, it’s about actually recognizing it. And yes, naming it as this is joy, and then sitting with it, you know, for a little bit of time, rather than kind of push it away or apologize for it or feel like well, I gotta get on to the next thing. So that’s what it’s, I’m, I think that that I’m lucky that there are pockets of joy, but I don’t know that I actually sit with them enough. So that’s really kind of the challenge for myself in the coming year.

Mamta Accapadi
I’m glad that that’s what the kind of the closing reflection that our listeners and viewers get to experience. So Deepa, thank you, thank you so much for your time and wisdom today is really more than the gift that I thought that you would bring in. So I’m just really this ecstatic and feel so whole in this moment. So thank you for being part of the Student Affairs NOW community. I also want to take this moment to thank our sponsors again, LeaderShape and Symplicity, we appreciate your support. More specifically, LeaderShape partners with colleges and universities to create transformational leadership experiences, both virtual and in person for students and professionals with a focus on creating a more just caring and thriving world. LeaderShape offers engaging learning experiences on courageous dialogue, integrity, equity, resilience, and community building. To find out more, please visit leadershape.org backslash virtual programs or connect with them on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn. And then Symplicity is the global leader in student services technological platforms with the state of the art technology that empowers institutions to make data driven decisions specific to their goals. A true partner to institutions Symplicity supports all aspects of student life and including, but not limited to Career Services and Development, Student Conduct and wellbeing students access and accessibility services. To learn more, visit symplicity.com or connect with them on Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn. And as always much love and a huge shout out to Natalie Ambrosey, the producer for the podcast who does all of the behind the scenes work to make us look and sound good. So friends if you are listening today and not already receiving our weekly newsletter, please visit our website at studentaffairsnow.com and scroll to the bottom of the homepage to add your email to our MailChimp list. While you’re there, check out our archives. Once again. I’m Mamta Accapadi, so much love and gratitude to everyone who is watching and listening. Please make it a beautiful week that honors your soul and spirit. Thank you all so much. Have a beautiful, beautiful day.