Mamta Accapadi:
So we bring a set of wisdom and lived experiences that connect with the knowledge to make it what it is. So when we enter our institutions, only we have the wisdom we bring to the table and that wisdom is necessary right now. And any time we show up in the fullness of our wisdom, there, there is a student, there is a faculty member, there’s an alum, somebody who is being moved by that. And just because you don’t hear it, it doesn’t mean it’s not happening. So just don’t underestimate the energy that, that you all bring to, to our educational communities.

Keith Edwards:
Hello and welcome to Student Affairs Now. I’m your host. Keith Edwards today we’re discussing career transitions in student affairs. Student Affairs Now is the premier podcast and online learning community for thousand of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education student affairs. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays. Find details about the episodes or browser archives at studentaffairsnow.com today’s episode is a special bonus episode brought to you by Colorado State. Online CSU online is now offering a fully online master’s of science and student affairs. To help you succeed as a higher education administrator. As I mentioned, I’m your host, Keith Edwards, my pronouns. Are he/him/his and I’m a speaker consultant and coach. And you can find out more about me at keithedwards.com. I’m broadcasting from Minneapolis, Minnesota, the intersections of the ancestral homelands of the Dakota and the Ojibue peoples.

Keith Edwards:
And I’m really glad to have two special guests today. We’ll get them to introduce themselves in a moment, but today is a special bonus episode as part of our two part series on career transitions in student affairs. Be sure to check out our part, one of this conversation that focused on early to mid career transitions with Tony Cawthon, Kristen Walker-Donnelly and Jane Adams-Dunford. Today, we’re going to focus on the career, other career transitions, a whole slew of them. So we’ve got these two folks here to kind of clean everything up. All the other transitions we’re joined by one of the editors and a contributing author to the same book, managing career transitions across the lifespan for student affairs practitioners. So what’s inter introduce yourselves. Let’s hear from you. Tell us a bit about you and a little bit about your experience with career transitions. Dena, let’s start with you.

Dena Kniess:
All right. Well, thank you, Keith. My name is Dena Kniess. I use she her pronouns and I am an associate professor and newly coordinator of our online doctorate and higher education administration program. In terms of career transitions, I have transitioned from being entry-level practitioner to doctoral student, and then from practitioner back to faculty member. And now it seems as though, too, in some ways, not only in addition to faculty my career transition has a little bit of an administrative component to it. So those have been my experiences over the past almost 20 years since I’ve been in started in hire education.

Keith Edwards:
Wonderful Mamta, tell us, go ahead and introduce yourself.

Mamta Accapadi:
Thank you, Keith. It’s so good to be in community with you and to be in community with Dena as well. My name is Mamta Accapadi and I use she her pronouns and I am a mom and that’s going to come up in career transitions conversations later on. So I always start with that. And yeah, you know, it’s interesting. I, and as I was reflecting on this question, I was like, oh, I’ve not been in the field for a very long time. And then that’s not true. Yes, reality sets in and you’re like, oh, okay. So you know, I think you know, we tend to tell our stories linearly, right? And so certainly within a career progression, you know, the exploration of a career, you know, going to graduate school and kind of it, it is linear.

Mamta Accapadi:
And so I don’t want to diminish the linearity, but what the story that we tell in a linear way, I had, you know, first I was in graduate school and then my career progressed at another level. And then another level with increasing responsibility, et cetera was not in a linear journey, right? The, the, the reflection is not real, it’s not linear. And so and I still don’t know what I want to do when I grow up. So I feel like I have this title, but it doesn’t tell the stories of the negotiations that kind of come along the way when we talk about career transition. So so, you know, certainly I’ve had a series of increasing responsibility. I’ve been lucky to have had opportunity to be in the classroom as well as be an administrator, I find joy in the messiness. And so that’s what I’m always looking for, but, you know, again, I’m excited to, to process all of that with you and Dena

Keith Edwards:
And tell us what is the role that your currently occupy.

Mamta Accapadi:
Ah, yes. So I am just finishing up actually my first year as vice provost for university life at the University of Pennsylvania. Congratulations.

Dena Kniess:
Congratulations.

Mamta Accapadi:
Thanks.

Keith Edwards:
Well, as I mentioned, this is part of a two-part series of episodes on career transitions. Dena, you’re one of three co editors for this volume, which folks can, can access we’ll include in the show notes. Tell us a little bit about the book and some of the additional career transitions you and the contributing authors explored.

Dena Kniess:
Yes. for that book, when Tony, Kristin and I started talking, we tend to think of, and this takes me to something Mamta talked about earlier. We tend to think of the journey and segments early professional mid-career professional, senior student affairs doctorate. Yet we wanted to see all of those transitions across the lifespan. So in this second part of the book, we really talked about looked at what would it take? When people ask you the question, you know, I’m considering a doctorate, what should I do? What should my reasoning be? So considering a terminal degree in one’s field, and it doesn’t need to be in education. Some individuals go into other areas such as business or even legal. So we wanted to provide some context there for my journey to like the transition from practitioner to faculty and looking at it doesn’t need to be tenure track faculty.

Dena Kniess:
When we talk about the profession is educators, how do we educate from where we’re at, and that may not need to be a tenure track faculty role. That can be an instructor. We have student affairs professionals serving as adjuncts, as lectures, and looking at that transition. And one of the chapters too, in addition to retirement, was looking at the complexities of social roles. And I know that was the chapter in Mamta contributed to, to, along with others, because we can’t forget, you know, the identity is the social identities and where we’re located at, as we’re approaching these transitions. Because I know even in my, each of my transitions, each was motivated by where I was at the time. And I know even my transition to faculty, it was not even something I had on my journey. I thought I was going to be a vice president for student affairs. And then I realized I really liked teaching. So how do I continue to do that? So it’s looking at those and thinking about how our professional worlds, our social worlds and who we are collide as we are integrate, as we go along this journey in the field. And I consider it a journey as well.

Keith Edwards:
Yeah, well, and as you’re talking about, it’s a journey not always linear and how we think about it, maybe appears that way on the resume or on LinkedIn, but maybe not in our experience of that. And I really relate to this. I had a very linear, traditional student, various experience, grad school job and Rez life, doctorate mid-level job. And then I went totally askew and like that, and working on my own and working for myself and working with lots of different folks as a consultant and speaker. And so that has been a part of it. But then another thing I’m connecting with Dena as you’re talking about, this is as an executive coach, just about everybody I talked to whether they’re in higher ed or not wants to talk about their career and what goes on with that. And when you really reflect, most people realize that their focus is on the next job, the next role, the step up, the better title, the bigger office, the bigger salary, and what they miss is this sort of holistic thinking of is that a better life for me?

Keith Edwards:
Right. It might double my salary and be this SSAO job that I’ve always wanted, but is that a better life in terms of location and all of those other things and bringing in all of those considerations about family, location, identities the role of the work there’s I hear people say, I want that title. I don’t want to do that job every day. Right. Those are very, very different things. So Mamta, you contribute to this wonderful chapter on the complexities of identity and career transitions. What can you offer to those of us wrestling with all of this?

Mamta Accapadi:
Yeah, so, I mean, I guess the first thing that I would say is well, first I want to offer gratitude to the coauthors of the chapter. There were it was a constellation of colleagues. So Claire Robbins, Nicole Johnson, Kendall Pete, Gabby Porcaro and Dena as well, right? There’s this, the constellation of wisdom in that space. I want to really hold an uplift, the sacredness of their wisdom. You know, as I was listening to both of y’all speak I am somebody who has the fancy title, right. And I, I want to start with that as naming or taking responsibility of I’m sitting literally in a privileged identity space with the title and the salary and the, you know, I received those messages. I pursued that opportunity, right. So it’s easy for me to say a lot of things right now today about what I may or may not do or what people, you know, things that I’m thinking about.

Mamta Accapadi:
So I just want to take a moment to name the privilege and the seat that I said and saying that I will also fully own that. I feel like the career transition much, like any other life transition. I feel like it’s a reconciliation of circumstances, right? It’s a reconciliation of circumstances and opportunities. And some of those things, we have choices around it and some of those things we don’t, and I don’t think we speak openly enough about the circumstances piece. So I will own, you know, I had probably one of my best, my best career experiences at my prior institution at Rollins College, which I love and will always hold this a special place in my heart. Right. and I also know the toll, it took on me to be the first and only up to that point person of color at the cabinet level, in the history of that institution.

Mamta Accapadi:
Right. And so I can’t untether having a powerful experience and the continual toll it took for the intersections of my identities in that position. And, and, and we get to openly talk about those things and consider what are the things that are most meaningful to us, or what do we need to both take care of ourselves, but also live our purpose in the world. And so for some of us, our positions or our jobs are extensions of our purpose in the world for some of us, it may not be. And so I think I would just say whatever, whatever people are feeling or wrestling with, because it could be different, right. Is real. And I think we questioned the validity of what we’re feeling and thinking. So I’ll stop with that, but not, not that you need me to validate things, but that’s what I would offer for now.

Keith Edwards:
Yeah. Thanks. So let’s, you know, we’ll bring you in, but what I was in, you said a much better than I will be able to sort of paraphrase, but these, these things are in, I think oftentimes we find ourselves with our values in conflict. I value this. And so that means this, but I also value this and it means something different. And I’m always encouraging folks where you find those values in conflict. How do you get them out of conflict and put in the conversation? How does this value talk about this value and how do you put them in conversation? So they’re, they’re not, it’s not a binary either or thinking, but I value this and I value this. So now what does that mean? Integrator complexity. I think you were pointing to that.

Mamta Accapadi:
Yeah, I was going to say that has been I won’t say hardest. But that has been probably the most profound growth opportunity for me along the arc of my own journey is being in, in reconciliatory spaces with those values. Right. and you know, I think no institution is perfect. Most institutions are founded with complicated histories. We find ourselves sitting at tables, you know, really in this interesting sets of negotiations. And so at the end of the day, how are you going to be fully present in a way that both honors what you’re willing to accept and what you’re not willing to accept and what you need and what you’d like, what are your, like, I think for any of us, like, I always sit and say, what are my non-negotiables, you know? And and I have clarity around that, but, but that’s a privileged thing, right? My non-negotiables, I, maybe I can walk away from things today because I have a very privileged identity, but 10 years ago, I couldn’t right. And, and I, so I just, I want to say that, you know, I can appreciate the complexities for people.

Keith Edwards:
And every institution, every role, every region has its upsides and downsides. The thing is that the place you’re at you just know all of that, the place you’re going to, you don’t always know that, but, you know, I always tell folks if, if they’ve convinced you that they don’t have any flaws, you’re in real trouble, but if they said here’s all of our mess, you know, we want to be transparent about it. And you think, well, that’s, that’s unfortunate, but I can handle that. These things I can’t, then I think you’re going into it with a little bit more clarity, Dena, what would you, you contributed to this chapter and you probably invited this chapter in as one of the editors. What would you want to add to this about you talked about the social context and the social location and our identities, as we’re thinking about some of these transitions.

Dena Kniess:
You know, and as I was contributing, we all crafted our own narratives and talked about our experiences. And I felt a sense of, if it’s a word, it was like cathartic to actually talk about the feelings behind it. So even in my one of the identities that resonated with me as I’m a first-generation college student on the first in my family to have a doctorate and to even my parents did come to my dissertation defense and they were excited because they were proud. They said, we don’t know a lot of the scholarly literature or what you’re doing, but we know it’s a big deal. So it was nice to feel validated in some ways in that way and also an achievement. So when I looked at faculty, I knew like one, it was a, it’s a privilege to be able to go into that position.

Dena Kniess:
And I felt honored. And in ways that I’m like, oh, somebody actually institutions wanted that kind of scholar practitioner piece. But I remember I was coming specifically to where I’m at now, there were two male faculty and one of the things that I didn’t, I thought about it, but it didn’t hit me at the time until like some of the students said, you’re the first female faculty we’ve had in the program. I’m like, oh, so I’m only thinking of that is okay. Maybe I’m a role model. Maybe I’m a possibility model and others who have said specifically because our institution at West Georgia our institution is about 30% underrepresented students by race and ethnicity. So other students were asking, you know, can I do this, you know, could I be a faculty one day? And I want to validate that, that of course, that they can.

Dena Kniess:
So for me, it was reflecting on that my own journey, but also looking at what my purpose is. And and looking at it’s to kind of, it’s not only being my identity as a female and providing that possibility, but also encouraging students. Cause a lot of our students are also first-generation that they have the possibility to do this as well and to not discount their lived experiences and their knowledge, because that is knowledge. It is context. They, there is this sense in when, when they asked me, sometimes you look like you’re doing this so well. I said, I’ll tell you each time I go up in class, I am nervous because you challenged me and I challenge you. So I am nervous. I know I have to, I know I’m looking at different things. So you’re pushing me while we’re both kind of co-creating this learning space.

Dena Kniess:
So in that transition, it was a personal one in terms of, you know, wanting to achieve. And I, I mean, I had no idea. I’m like, I, my undergraduate professors thought at one day you could be in the academic world and I’m like, I just want to, I’m like, I didn’t have a context for that. My grandparents my grandfather was a coal miner. So that’s the context I had. So in terms of contributing that, I think it was something that was validating yet. There’s something to all of our institutions. Keith, I loved how you mentioned this, that our institutions are imperfect and we still run into gendered and institutional norms. And there’s some of that I’ve experienced, but yet I’d have to realize, okay, how do I negotiate this space in this tension in terms of what would you mentioned? What’s important to me, but also how can I be an advocate for my students? What, where can I advocate from this position that I have now is having a doctorate and being a female? How can I advocate and what, where can I advocate for students? And that’s been something that’s been very important to me.

Keith Edwards:
Right. I think this really you’re highlighting attention that I think I see so often, which is people want to work in these perfect work environments and they want to be needed and the perfect work environment doesn’t exist and you’re needed there. And so I think which puts back to, where do you put these values in conversation where this institution maybe is super trans inclusive and this institution has a long way to go and you might be more comfortable here, but more needed by the students here. And, and what are you willing to compromise? What are you not willing to compromise? Where do you want to be of service? Where is the toll on you as a human too much? And I think navigating some of that Mamta, do you want to add to that?

Mamta Accapadi:
Yeah. You know, it was interesting as I heard Dena talking, I remember, I remember my first term at Oregon State University. My daughter was a newborn at the time. And one of the, the CSA graduate students does she’d just come to my office and my office was a disaster. I mean, there were pamper boxes on the floor because you can carry those boxes are nice to carry books in. And so you don’t overfill them anyway. So there were boxes on the floor. There’s a comforter on the ground because I would often bring Cya into the play on the floor sometimes when I had meetings, like after daycare time. Right. And I will never forget, she looked. And she was like, I think I can be a Dean of students now. And I said, that was just like a random state, like tell me more.

Mamta Accapadi:
And she was like, your office is a mess. And I said, yes, it is that she was like, you don’t have everything together. You just seem like you have everything together and looking at your office. I see hope for myself. And I’m so grateful that, that, that, you know, that my mess in that context provided a space or a pathway of hope. So as you know, again, as I hear you talking about kind of this reconciliation of spaces that’s, that’s the one type of negotiation that I would offer, but, you know this is not a surprise for folks who have either been to, or lived in Oregon, you know, as I was raising a brown south Asian child in Corvallis, Oregon, where the best places I’ve ever lived that I was like, she doesn’t see herself, you know, they’re not the cultural experiences, the language, you know?

Mamta Accapadi:
And so in my own negotiation and exploration at next level, it wasn’t about the position or the position type. It was how can I center what my family needs while doing the work that I want to do? And that’s, that was actually the reason that I ended up from a large public institution to a small liberal arts school. And so it’s so funny because I think what people want me to do is tell the story about, oh, the fidelity of small liberal arts and the meaning. And I, and I believe all of those things, but I also, I guess I am committed to being an educator and a facilitator of meaningful experiences that transform students’ lives. And that we do that in partnership with students. I think that that happens in many types of environments. And so if I can be, you know, a partner alongside, you know, faculty, staff, and students and alumni, and doing that work and the community, wherever that is, I’m okay with that because that’s not, my, my center has never been fidelity institution type, but I do feel like that’s the narrative that we send, right? Oh, you must have this arc of this institution type or this type of position, but that has never been my core. And you kind of see that kind of in the transition.

Keith Edwards:
When people see your path and they create a story, right. And you even create a story about your path in retrospect, right. Where it all aligns. And I just think, you know, had I gone somewhere else after my doctorate, my whole life would be different if I had gone to a different undergrad, my whole life would be different. I can’t, you know, unimaginable way is I have no idea. And so each of these paths, and you’re just reinforcing to not just think about the job, the career, the title, the role, the institution, but the life, whether that’s family or location who you want to be around, or community or friends or climate or region of the country, or access to healthcare. So many things to factor in, et cetera. Well, the, you know, in the previous episode, we talked about this transition from new to mid-career, right, which is in, in our profession where the most people are in the biggest transition in one that is super salient for so many people.

Keith Edwards:
And, and this episode is kind of the home for the misfit toys. We’re going to talk about everything else. As you mentioned in terminal degree, moving into senior roles, which we’ve talked about, practitioner, faculty, faculty, back to practitioners, I’m seeing happen a little bit more student affairs adjacent, which is a renowned senior affairs. I transitioned that, that I’ve made retirement. And, and I in the last episode, folks talked about really you as editors, trying to bring in people who had been through these transitions, not people who are theorizing or expecting or anticipated, but people who had had, who had been through that. So Dena, what, what would you add about some of these different career transitions and maybe some of the ones that I’m missing?

Dena Kniess:
Yeah, I would say definitely in thinking because one of my coauthors on the transition to your terminal degree was merely done. And we both, even though we were both at different stages, we both had, you know, that decision choice to think about when, you know, what, what should I look at when I’m going for a doctorate? Is there a difference between EDD versus PhD? And in terms, a lot of people think is a PhD, more prestigious, and I’m thinking it’s all knowledge. And one of, I always cite Leslie Gonzalez at Michigan State University, she went to university of Texas El Paso, and she had talked about, you know, her transition when people would come up and say that, and I’m like, she’s one of the most prolific scholars I’ve ever met. And she writes about knowledge production. So I’m like, it depends on what you want to do and really connecting with faculty at those programs, whether it’s an MBA or if it’s, you know, a legal degree, if you want to go for an EDD, if you want to build on certificates, like it depends on, you know, what you see as your purpose.

Dena Kniess:
And then you may not have an ultimate career goal in mind. And mine changed. I thought I wanted to be a vice president of student affairs. And at that point I just, I was finding my energy in the classroom. And I was like, and that was one thing I had to ask too, like, where do I get my energy from? Even though it challenges me, but where am I drawing that source of strength? And then from, for transition to faculty one of the prior editors, Tony Cawthon, and I went to him one day. I said, Tony, I think I want to be faculty. He’s like, I love it. I said, what is different? I had to, I was curious about what is the difference in the search process and what do you need to do? And he was telling me about that in terms of having a research agenda and looking at what is my teaching philosophy.

Dena Kniess:
So, and he said, it can be different things. And he said, the big thing is teaching experience. So I started unofficially kind of doing some adjuncting or teaching assistant work for him and so I can get the sense of what it took to prepare and what, what that life would be like a little bit though, getting into. It was very different. Unlike sometimes student affairs, depending on where you’re at, there’s a lot of people to meet. There’s a lot of either trainings that you need to go through when you went to faculty, it was, it was like, here’s what orientation, here’s what you need to do. Here’s your office and then go forth and you would have faculty. Okay. At different times. But usually maybe twice or once a month. So I had to get used to structuring myself, which I was happy.

Dena Kniess:
The administrative world kind of taught me how to structure myself. So it’s really thinking about how do you want to contribute and do you want to contribute in different ways? And I think even now I’m seeing some of my for, I taught in the master’s program and I was looking at students. Some of them are thinking, I like the traditional either residents or student activities, but I’m really intrigued by going to like maybe an Anthology or doing some student affairs adjacent work. And I said, you’re still doing work. It just may not be on a college campus, but you’re still doing work for student affairs, still contributing to the profession because I think they have a set mindset while I need to work here for two to three years. But I’ve had a lot of colleagues or friends, whether they’re mid career others say, you know what, I want to make a shift.

Dena Kniess:
And I want to look at this. And I think it’s added more to the conversation piece as well. And when we were thinking about given the game, I’m not near retirement, but when I was reading that chapter, I’m like, oh, these are things to think about in terms of, you know, how are you going to, to kind of transition now? Like, is it, you know, do you want to stop and then take, you know, some time to do some teaching before you formally retire, do you want to take another role? So it was, I mean, it’s just interesting all of those considerations to think about. So I guess my advice would be to always think of yourself in the journey. And I also said, think of where you are now because there’s one quote I live by I’m like I’ve started. I w I thought I had to plan in, hurt, hit certain mile markers, but I’m like, enjoy the journey and enjoy the unexpectedness of what comes up or what opportunities present themselves. Sandra are also said, where’s one quote she has. And I said this, I said, I have started saying, it is never say never. If somebody asks me, would you be interested in academic administration? I said, I’d want to know what it entails, but I’m not going to say never. It just may not be at this moment, but really just embracing that and embracing where you find the joy.

Keith Edwards:
Well, this came up, I mean, Tony mentioned it when we were talking about a new to mid career transitions about enjoying the journey, right. And this notion that, which I attribute to George who may or may not be accurate, but serendipity is too important to be left to chance. Right? How do you, and what I’m hearing from you, Dena is when you are clear about your purpose, then a lot of these choices kind of get aligned and clarified when you’re clear about I want to teach. Okay. Well that means some things and some other things and kind of narrows this I’m clear. I want to be of service and work with students to better the student experience. Well that if that’s your purpose, that clarifies a lot of things. But then also being open and ready for the unexpected and ready to engage with it, Mamta, what would you add?

Mamta Accapadi:
Well, you know, as, as I hear both of y’all talking, I’m chuckling because my career dream, which I have yet to like yet to kind of enter this world is I’ve always wanted to be a cabinet level diversity officer. And that’s the one job, like, even before all of us, like in my, in my early career, all my dream was to be a director of a multicultural center. So what is the one job I still don’t have, you know, I have not had. And so, you know but what I really appreciate, and so yes, this clarity of purpose and how we are present in, and at least in our profession fully present, you know, in the academic mission and, and the joy and you know, facilitations of students’ hopes and dreams as they’re pursuing their best lives. I think, you know, that, that, that has been my anchor.

Mamta Accapadi:
Again, it’s easier for it to be my anchor right now, you know, with, with the, the class privilege that I hold. And I’m just going to keep repeating that because I don’t, you know, my mother didn’t have a chance to explore her purpose. Right. in her life, in the way that, you know, she with, with her job and career choices. So so but I also remember at a time when I thought because I think another thing with career transitions is, are you bound by geography, right, Keith, I think you mentioned that briefly, like that could be a thing. There was a point in time. I, you know, I’m from Texas. I was, I’m in Austin, Texas right now. And I thought that my life and career would be at the University of, or in Austin, Texas, that I didn’t have the flexibility to move at the time.

Mamta Accapadi:
And I had grown out, I’ve really outgrown my position. And, you know, there were very many opportunities. So I was exploring all of these different things. I will own that because of the class status by which I grew up in. I don’t, and today, even now I will tell you all, I still live with that mindset. So I’m not entrepreneurial. I don’t take those. Like, I’m like, I want stability. I want, I want the insurance. But like, those are things that I think about because I remember my childhood. Right. But what I will also say is when I started saying, you know, like, okay, like I, I didn’t have the mentorship to think about what would it be to transition into a faculty journey because I didn’t have the mentorship and nor did I know how to cultivate that mentorship. And so I was like, oh, I’m going to apply for post-docs and then I’m not going to get the postdocs.

Mamta Accapadi:
But then what I will do is I will use that as an opportunity to call the faculty member and say, can you give me feedback on what I did and didn’t have, and that’s how I would improve. So I kid you not postdoc interview, I get an invitation to an interview at the University of Houston. It was in women’s studies. This is how I got the post-doc. And women’s studies at the university of Houston. I’m sitting in front of Elizabeth Gregory, and it’s important for me to name her. She changed my life. Right. And I’m sitting here telling her all the things, I don’t know how to do things you shouldn’t do in an interview. But and, and I was like, I’ve never done this before. I don’t know. Like, I don’t even know why I’m sitting here in front of you right now.

Mamta Accapadi:
And she, she, like, it was a matter of fact tone. She just, she, she looked up from her glasses and she was like, well, we all start somewhere. You know? And that one simple sentence, we all start somewhere and having that opportunity to do a postdoc and women’s studies changed the trajectory of my life and my soul. Right. I mean, it wasn’t just the position. It was absolutely. We all start somewhere. The other thing that I’ll add, and I love this conversation about student affairs adjacent again, much like I don’t have fidelity institution type. I mean, maybe you’re going to kick me off the island now, but I also don’t have fidelity to the term student affairs. I think we need educators like us in every field that will take us. So I’m going to, I’m going to name Mary Gonzalez right now, right? Mary Gonzalez, student affairs.

Mamta Accapadi:
While she was an undergrad student at the University of Texas, but student affairs, professional, you know, at, at Southwestern and you know, in Georgetown, Texas, but went on to become right, represent El Paso and Texas state legislator, Texas state legislature. Who do you think is talking about critical race theory in the Texas state legislatures are debating. I want educators like that in all dimensions of where we can be to transform the human experience. And I, so I think that that’s deeply exciting. And, and if not for people like her, you know, who are organizing the LGBT caucus and the Texas, I, things like that. Like we just, we need us and our spirits and any space that is possible. So that’s what I would advocate for.

Keith Edwards:
Well, have to you’re in this role. And your second, second and a half, maybe depending on how you count as an SSAO. And so many folks I hear particularly new professionals in some mid career professionals say, you know, when I’m finally the vice-president when I’m finally, when I get to make all the decisions, when I get to do what I want to do, and they have this image sometimes as the, vice-president sometimes with the director as being able to do whatever they want. And a good colleague of mine reminds me, we’re all middle managers, we all have a boss. Even, the chancellor has a board and board of governors. So could you just talk a little bit about the middle manager aspect of having this senior role?

Mamta Accapadi:
Yeah, absolutely. And so I yes, we are all in the middle. Every single one of us is in some middle place someplace. And so I think the reconcile and I keep using the word reconciliation because maybe that’s the universe wants me to hear it for myself, but I I actually find that as my career has progressed, I actually make less decisions. Not that I have the right to make less decisions. I’m, you know, that I actually make less decisions because I feel like my job is to be an Alchemist. I feel like my job is to shift energy and not shift things so to speak. And so and here’s where I chuckle and I, you know, Dena I would love to hear what you think about this as well. I find that like the skillset that I had as a Dean of students, and even the skillset that I had as you know, in working in multicultural affairs before that, I feel like at every shift in position type it’s like, I feel like I’ve had to do a 180 of the, like, as a Dean of Students. I was a doer. I was, I was rewarded, rewarded for being a doer. I was recognized for doing the things. And when I, in my first VP role at Rollins doing things only has you carrying the heaviness, right? And when you have

Keith Edwards:
More things and doing more things

Mamta Accapadi:
Then you’re, and you’re reduced to the things and not the collective energy and what I loved you know, the seven-year journey at Rollins, our team, we shifted the energy of the institution and we did it together. And so, because we co-created our mission together. And so I find that, that I actually make less and I make less decisions. And when I do make decisions, like that means like, like my own thought process is that, that, like, this is a higher stakes thing coming from someplace beyond me. And then I try to be, as I always say, translucent, cause sometimes you can’t share everything that you may want to share, but, but I try to be as vulnerable about, you know, the why behind certain things. And, but that also means receiving the, the critique for, for those complicated things. Right. And so I think that’s what people don’t understand is that in this role, the you need to be okay with receiving the critique, receiving the critique, and most times not being able to fix it and just sitting with the critique.

Keith Edwards:
Right? Well, you reminded me Barack Obama used to say, he only makes the decisions that nobody else can make. Cause if it’s, unless it’s 51 49, that those are the decisions he makes the 60 40, it doesn’t even get to his desk like someone that’s already made beforehand. And so when you’re the leader, you’re really making the difficult decisions that others have really brought to you and advise you. And then you get the criticism that comes along with that. And sometimes you get the criticism that comes along with someone else’s decision eating in that way means being willing to weather that.

Mamta Accapadi:
Can I add one more thing? The one thing, and I would say this, because this is the who worked. Like, if, if you, if you had the ability to time travel and the 20 year old me was also on this panel she would entirely critique everything that I’m saying right now. I’m not saying this from a good, bad, I’m not advocating. This is just how I feel. So, so I would also say the most significant part of my role is being in relationship with people. And I say that all the time, I say that as somebody who off the rails introvert, I say that as somebody who experiences microaggressions all the time, I cannot name the microaggressions all the time. Because if, if I’m, and, and I want you and I have every right to, but if I am not at the table, the student experience is not at the table.

Mamta Accapadi:
And so I weigh that a lot. And that means that’s the toll part. Right? So you know, I’ll like, I’ll give the example of, like, I re you know, how many presidents receptions have I sat in at, at the president’s house? I, you know, I was sharing with my colleagues that there’ve been times where folks have handed me their trash to throw away, like, and I’m like, I’m wearing the suit and the name tag, like, like I’ll be other VPs in the room. And do I confront that I can’t confront that moment or I choose not to, because there is a greater good somebody else might do something differently and that’s fine, but these are the negotiations I think we have to think about.

Keith Edwards:
Yeah. Well, I’m so glad you think that the 20 year old version of you would get on the podcast. I promise you the 25 year old version of me, we would not let him on the podcast. We do a terrible, terrible thing. We want to get this two more questions. One is it’s July, as we’re having this conversation, we’re releasing this and people are starting new roles, new role, mid role, new SSAO. Oh, some people just got the keys to their faculty, office, Dena, wondering where the orientation is, and it’s not going to happen. All of these new things. What suggestions would you have folks as they’re starting new roles, new institution, new paths, what would you want to remind folks? Is there in these new beginnings?

Dena Kniess:
One thing I wanted to remind individuals to do, and this was something that was helpful for me when I first got on campus was I was really just trying to explore the campus culture. And I would ask even individuals as faculty, like, who should I get to know whether it would be faculty or others and taking it was reminding us of something Mamta said, like, how do I be in relationship with others? And there’s times when I would look at, and I know this is coming from the context where, I mean, when you mentioned state systems and boards and everything this is the first time I’ve every place I’ve had has had a system, but theUniversity system of Georgia and then the governor, and then we have regional institutions and you’ve got your faculty Senate it’s knowing what roles individuals played.

Dena Kniess:
And how could you, how could you mobilize different coalitions? Because I think that’s something, or how do you start thinking about what your ideas are? How do you get to know the campus culture? What are some of the issues? And some of the, the ways I found out was by having conversations with other people, but also being attuned to what the student experience was. And sometimes one of the things I used to do when I asked individuals what the issues were, and this goes back to something, you mentioned Keith, when they would say, oh, we’re fun. I would always ask, do you have a copy of your student newspaper? Cause I could generally get a sense of I’m like, these are what the students are saying. So I would say being attentive to that. And then also I would say too now, and I’m reminded by something.

Dena Kniess:
I had Dr. Melissa Shivers come to my class really talking about like where she was at with the transition and integrity and different career roles. And one of the things she mentioned is don’t neglect that there’s things happening behind the scenes. But also just keep thinking about post COVID. What are we going to be like when well, not that we’re completely post COVID. I don’t want to say that, but a lot of universities may be stating fall operations. We’re going back to where we were, but we’ve had a whole year and a half of either being on zoom, being disconnected from family and like community. I mean, or other, the community is on zoom. So, and there has been a wave of grief, a grief of experiences that didn’t happen, grief and losing family members. So thinking about, that’s been something on my mind is how do we operate from an ethic of care?

Dena Kniess:
And an ethic of concern as we’re coming back. Or I know at least our institution has said, yes, we’re opening on August 11th. And it’s I saw my colleague the other day. He said, this is the first time I’ve in the office in a year and a half. So a lot of us are reorienting ourselves. So when I think about July coming back, you’re adjusting to a new culture, but you’re also kind of adjusting to where are all of we at not only physically, but where are we at in this space and how we are emotionally and personally as well. And that needs

Keith Edwards:
To be attended to when some people started a year ago and they barely even been on campus for a new, right. So Mamta what advice would you have for folks who are, who are starting new roles, new institutions, or maybe, maybe in year two of being new?

Mamta Accapadi:
Yeah. I keep telling everyone, I get my son. I keep saying when I start my second first year and it’s all the kids. And so I’m really thankful for that really thankful to have built relationships and now get to kind of have a second first year truly. I’m going to offer, you know Dena was so thoughtful, you know, with, with all the, you know, the understanding of the emotional and spiritual landscape which that’s the most important thing. And I’m going to kind of add a corollary of some ticky tack things. I mean, some things that I wish we as educators would do a better job of, and whether we’re seasoned or new is read the fact book, know your, know your campus population. Absolutely. I don’t know how to underscore the, read the student newspaper. It may or may not be used, but it’s what students think students are thinking and that’s important, right?

Mamta Accapadi:
And so it’s, it’s, it’s their truth and that’s important. If there are faculty governance minutes, you know, that are accessible, that you have like understand the complexities. Like if they’re of the environment, if there are, you know, open trustees meetings and you have access to those presentations, either behind your institutions, credentials or not participate in those experiences. Like I, you know, I do presentations, her trustee student life, you know and that’s an open meeting for our institution. So I think, I would encourage, I wouldn’t require anybody, but I would say that’s a way to kind of understand the middle spaces that we all occupied. And then the other thing, and I think my intention here, sometimes I can sound harsher than, I mean, and so I wanna I’ll preface by saying that first we, our institutions are not responsible for our personal healing.

Mamta Accapadi:
And I know that that becomes hard for us because we are the healers oftentimes for our student communities all the complicated grief components that Dena talked about are real. And they’re real for us too. And it’s not you know, it’s the pandemic, it’s the economic impact of the pandemic. So the economic losses for people who lost jobs, it is the, the mass racial violence and the political unsteadiness and not just domestically globally. Right. and so to understand that complicated grief and the identities that we occupy and so how those, those grief moments also impacted us. We have to create space for ourselves, with our spiritual providers, with our therapists to process that. And again, you know, institutions may provide, you know, and they may or may not be what we want them to be, but we have a duty of care to take responsibility of that we need to student affairs ourselves is, is I guess how I would frame that.

Mamta Accapadi:
Then again, I just, I say that because I’m notorious for not doing those things, I’m also notorious for not taking care of my physical health. Right. And so like, so the same thing that I would say is like, we be to look at those, right? The SAMSA would the eight domains of wellness, like how are we assessing those for ourselves so that we can be who we want to be as, as humans? So I mean, I think those are the spaces of reflection. I think, I actually think the next decade of our profession is fundamentally transformed. I have a middle school kid that who’s the pandemic, right, is now a moment. It is her moment in her life. And, and for so, and she’s very privileged, but I think about what sixth grader who lost a family member, or whose family member, like who, or somebody lost a job that now has impacted their economic reality for the next six or seven years until they go to college, if they choose to go to college or have access to college.

Mamta Accapadi:
And so we need to let go of the nostalgia of why we went, we entered into the profession and we need to be present for students today and for the next decade, what they need based on the complicated trauma and that they have experienced. And so I’m pulling from the Jed foundation, right? Jed released this amazing report in August August, 2020 around making sure that we understanding, help seeking behaviors, understanding that students may not know how to seek support. And so things that we’re going to think are basic are not basic. And so we need to understand and honor their truth, not our nostalgia for why we entered the profession.

Keith Edwards:
Yes. before we get to you Dena, I got, I will agree with you, Dr. Accapadi you are notorious. I will disagree that those are the reasons why you are, we all have our own self-reflection meaning, meaning Dena, jump to our last question, but go ahead and jump in and then we’ll, we’ll go to our wrap up question.

Dena Kniess:
Yeah. And yes, I just wanted to add onto what Mamta had said as well, because I know even in working with students in our graduate school program one of them had gone through a lot of losing a family member. Now having a family member who is facing a terminal illness. And one question they asked is, you know, I feel guilty going to counseling services because I don’t want to take away from an undergraduate student, but I said, those services are there for you too. So, and I even share my own experience of having to use counseling services. So how can we you’re right. You’re absolutely right. Like not only, it’s not just enough to say that they’re there, but how do we teach individuals access those services and knowing that they can access those services

Keith Edwards:
Two future episodes that will be coming up soon. We’re going to talk about side hustles in student affairs, side hustles. And so some of these transitions things that folks are doing, and also have a whole episode dedicated to what we were just talking about, about what are workplace norms and how do we tend to the humanity of people as we hopefully don’t go back to normal because normal wasn’t great, but how do we move forward? How do we create something better going back, taking the best of what has been, and the best of what was, and move forward that, so those are some conversations we’re coming up on. This is Student Affairs Now we’re just about out of time. So we want to hear what your thinking now is on your mind with this conversation, or just in general. And then we’d also love for you to share for folks who want to connect with you in other ways, what’s the best way for folks to reach out to you, Dena? How about you? What is on your mind now? What are you troubling, pondering thinking about now?

Dena Kniess:
One of the things I keep thinking about too, is in terms of my role with graduate preparation and doctoral programs, is how does, how does the standard curriculum need to change? Or how do we need to incorporate for what we’re seeing? Because I just have the sense that I know the field is going to be different. So how are we creating sustainable? This is the title of, I get a Dr. Margaret Salle’s book making, making sustainable careers in student affairs. Like how do we create a trajectory and thinking about transitions, what is sustainable? And you’re right. Keith, you mentioned this too. How can we start kind of troubling some of those norms we always had after working a year and a half in the working remotely or having more flexible arrangements, how does that honor everybody’s sense of well-being? So that’s something that is just I’m thinking about right now.

Dena Kniess:
I also wonder, I know there have been statistics and articles in terms of attrition from the field. I don’t know what those statistics are now, or if NASA or ACPA. I think some may be looking at that is we’re starting to see, like, where, how did I, this goes back to the sustainable careers, is how do we talk about the trajectory and how do we trouble some of our, our norms like this whole, you know, I gotta work 80 hours a week. It’s like, not really. So how do we start thinking about some of those items that we can look at in terms of career development?

Keith Edwards:
Great. Thank you, Mamta. What are you thinking troubling or pondering now?

Mamta Accapadi:
I’m pondering how lucky I am to be in a community of educators that are likely the ones listening to this podcast and to be alongside all of you, because if ever a time I’ve ever done, I know I’m sounding very cliche here if ever a time for educators like us now is more than ever that time. And so the reflection that I have is that there, there are things we learned. And so it’s so tough to go after Dena you know, because all the, your, your wisdom around the grad prep programs, and it’s just so heartwarming to hear you think about that and say, okay, yes, these things have to be different. And I would also say, as we’re participating in those experiences, remember there’s only one of each and every one of us, right? So we bring a set of wisdom and lived experiences that connect with the knowledge to make it what it is. So when we enter our institutions, only we have the wisdom we bring to the table and that wisdom is necessary right now. And any time we show up in the fullness of our wisdom, there, there is a student, there is a faculty member, there’s an alum, somebody who is being moved by that. And just because you don’t hear it, it doesn’t mean it’s not happening. So just don’t underestimate the energy that, that you all bring to, to our educational communities.

Keith Edwards:
Wonderful. And how can people connect with you Mamta?

Dena Kniess:
Yes. So while I do use Twitter, email and LinkedIn, probably LinkedIn is the best way to connect. And I would, I would love to learn from anybody and, and connect with anybody here.

Keith Edwards:
Well, and you do not only are you there, you’re doing lots of sharing of wonderful heart pieces and thought pieces there as well. I recommend that. And how about you Dena? How can people connect

Dena Kniess:
With you? The best way I’m usually on Twitter and I’m also on LinkedIn is to, and I think it’s part of the podcast. So I try and share out or do some retweets, but if there’s something to comment on or even articles for another role, those are the best two places to reach me.

Keith Edwards:
Wonderful. Well, thanks to you both so much, so, so grateful for your time and your wisdom and your insight to the book. And now sharing this with our audience. Thanks so much, so much to each of you as our guests, grateful for your time today on Student Affairs Now. And thanks to our sponsor on this special bonus episode from Colorado State Online. Colorado State University Online is now offering a fully online master of science in student affairs. This program will help you gain the professional competencies, knowledge and experience to succeed as a higher education administrator. You will ear n the same. Master’s degree and learn from the same faculty as CSU on campus students. Learn more at online.coloradostate.edu. Huge shout out to Natalie Ambrosey, the production assistant for the podcast who does all the behind the scenes work and will make us sound and look good. If you’re listening today and not already receiving our weekly newsletter, please visit our website at studentaffairsnow.com and scroll to the bottom of the homepage to add your email to our MailChimp list while you’re there. Check out our archives all wonderfully organized by NASPA and ACPA professional competencies. I’m your host, Keith Edwards. Thanks again to our fabulous guests today. And for everyone who is watching and listening, please make it a great week. Thanks. All right.

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