Nat Ambrosey:
And one of the things that I found was really beneficial for me is that what I was doing in my side hustle only improved what I was doing in my job. And I was reading an article the other day about how cool would it be if student affairs professionals you know, shared what they were learning in their side hustles with their teams or with other departments? I think everyone can learn so much more we’re in our one jobs and we’re doing that one thing, but what are the other things? My top skill or top strength is learner. So I’m always wanting to learn about new things. So I would love it. If someone from, you know, I was in ResLife, if someone from orientation office was doing something and they came and shared so things like that of taking it as, yes, it is something that’s not your job that you’re doing on the side, but it really could impact your job in such a positive way.

Glenn DeGuzman:
Hello, and welcome to Student Affairs Now. I’m your host, Dr. Glenn DeGuzman and today’s episode. We are discussing with our very special guests who are leaders and practitioners in and around student affairs, who are engaging in side hustles or side businesses outside and or adjacent to their primary role student. Student Affairs Now is the premier podcast and learning community for thousands of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We release episodes every week on Wednesdays. And you can find details about this episode or browse our archives at studentaffairsnow.com today’s episode. We have a couple of sponsors that we want to recognize. Stylus Publishing is proud to be a sponsor for Student Affairs Now podcast browse their student affairs, their diversity professional development titles at styluspub.com. Use the promo code SANow for 30% off all books plus free shipping.

Glenn DeGuzman:
And you can find Stylus on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, LinkedIn, and Twitter @styluspub. This episode is also sponsored by Anthology. Transform your student experience and advanced co-curricular learning with Anthology Engage. With this technology platform, you are able to easily manage student organizations, efficiently plan events, and truly understand student involvement to continuously improve your engagement efforts at your institution. Learn more by visiting anthology.com/engage. As I mentioned, I’m your host, Glenn DeGuzman. I’m the Associate Dean of Students and Director of Residential Life at the University of California Berkeley. I use the he series as my pronouns and I’m hosting this conversation again from my home in Livermore, California, which is the ancestral home of the Aloni peoples. So let’s meet our cool panelists for today. So I would like for our panelists to really quickly introduce themselves and as they’re introducing yourselves, because this is an episode about side hustles, I would love to hear your pitch and give us an overview of your side hustle outside of your primary work. So let’s start with Marney.

Marney Randle:
Awesome. Thank you. Really excited to be here. My name is Marney Randle. I use she her pronouns and I’m currently in Martinez, California which is in the East Bay area. And it’s on Aloni land, specifically belonging to the Karkin people. My primary work is I serve as an assistant director for the department of residential life at UC Berkeley. And a quick snapshot of what that entails is I supervise professional staff who have master’s degree staff in a larger team of around 25 professional staff members. We serve 170 student leaders and around 8,600 live-in students. In my work I do a lot of strategic decision-making crisis response and also support our identity and interest based theme programs while also doing a lot with campus partnerships presentation, public speaking, et cetera, and also which kind of ties into my side hustle.

Marney Randle:
Well is I really love to infuse coaching and focused practices focused on diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. So a little bit more about my side hustle is I am a certified professional coach and founder of Academic Advisory Council, which is a coaching company on a one-on-one coaching services. For a lot of a lot of folks, typically I focus on working with college students or entry-level professionals. I also do a lot of presentations and workshop facilitation. And how I got involved in the side hustle is well I come from the entrepreneurial family. I was really raised with this idea that I can do multiple things jobs at the same time. And I saw my grandparents working a trucking business while also having a lot of my family members, including my mom drive truck, and either completing their degrees at the same time, working in real estate, working in law and, and folding in a variety of different work.

Marney Randle:
And so I grew up with that and realized like, I can do that too. And yeah, so with that, I’ve, I’ve really paired my 10 plus years higher ed experience with my passion for mentorship and helping people achieve their goals. A lot of that involves navigating systems and access and focusing on professional development and goal attainment. And, you know, with that, I really do view myself as a trailblazer in the field of coaching and how that ties into higher education and student affairs. I started my coaching business in 2013, and I remember going to a lot of higher ed conferences and being that person where people ask like, oh, what’s it, what institution are you affiliated with? And I would say, actually I own my own coaching business. And let’s talk about that. I feel like that’s kind of changed a little bit more over time having that kind of nervous anxiety thing.

Marney Randle:
Like, okay, well, I’m not associated with an institution I’m representing myself and my brand and, and being able to talk about what coaching is. So I, in my work, I get really excited about working one-on-one with clients. And as I mentioned, really focused on a goal attainment and holistic development and helping clients be the best versions of themselves. And so really infusing focused on the EIB work professional development and wellness. And what really keeps me going is, is really recognizing that I am and leader from underrepresented background, identify as multiracial and really thinking about how I navigate space and aspects and how I really built my business while staying aligned with my values. So definitely excited to share more, but that’s just a little bit more about me.

Glenn DeGuzman:
I’m looking forward to you sharing more. And I, you know, I, in transparency, I also have the opportunity to, to work with you cause we’re in the same department. So a lot of the things that you mentioned, I’m like, wow, that’s really interesting. Cause you’re, you’re, you’re definitely pairing your student affairs background. And I, you know, I didn’t know too much about your family background and this entrepreneurial background. So that’s really fascinating looking forward to hearing what you have to say more let’s turn to Joshua.

Joshua Moon-Johnson:
Hi y’all. I’m excited to be on this panel and Marney, so good to hear about your story. I’m inspired by you all the time and so excited to get to hang out with you for this hour. But everyone, I am Dr. Joshua Moon-Johnson. I use he him, his pronouns. And I’m coming to you from Milwalk land in Sacramento, California. My day job, my full-time position is a Dean of Student services at American River College, which is a community college in Sacramento for about 32,000 students. So we’re one of the largest community colleges in Sacramento. I also serve as the Title IX Coordinator for our institution. My role changes very regularly. I think that were a team in student services is what we call it mostly in the community college system. But I’m a student affairs person by training and my lifelong goals and purpose.

Joshua Moon-Johnson:
And so it just looks a little bit differently as I moved from four years to a community college and institutions, my side hustles, I guess I would call them. They just kind of evolved. I’m not really sure how I ended up in that. I’ve always been kind of a nerd for education and social justice all around, and I just kept putting my hands in everything and then people started paying me to do it. I would say my main thing that I do outside of my normal job is consulting for higher education non-profits and for-profit organizations really around equity and social justice planning. And this evolved from my own experience. I was recently a Dean of student services for equity programs, and I was able to lead her institution with creating a long-term strategic equity plan. And I learned a lot and I grew a lot.

Joshua Moon-Johnson:
And then I’ve done a handful of presentations at conferences about, and people are like, can you help us make one too? And so I was like, I guess so and then with that, I worked with a couple of different I guess groups. One is Butteur consulting led by Raja Butteur. So I serve as a senior consultant with them and we get to work with a number of institutions around the country. I’m also with Watson consulting. So being a partner with that to partner with them, to do some organizations. And then one of my colleagues, Dr. Emily Prieta and I were regularly asked to do consulting. And so we created our own consulting firm, an LLC called PMJ consulting. And so we mostly with higher education too. Outside of that I’ve been regularly teaching. And so when I was at four year institutions, I always tried to get to teach at the institution, the community college world in California.

Joshua Moon-Johnson:
We don’t teach at our own institution. So I mostly have been faculty and EDD programs as a dissertation committee member or specialist. And so I’ve been doing that for about five years now, and I love working with doctoral students to help them hone their research and to get that publication finalized and move on to graduating. And a lot of these evolved for me and my writing experience. I’ve always been in student affairs, never done the tenure track process, but I’ve always been had my hands into research, which started with me, publishing my dissertation around intersections of LGBTQ students, religion and race. And then that evolved as I’ve been in spaces where I was a director of an LGBT center, then director of a multicultural center and realizing there wasn’t much literature about by QTPOC students.

Joshua Moon-Johnson:
So I was like, someone needs to write this book. And that evolved. And then my book that’s about to come out as and trans advocacy in the community college with Stylus Publishing. And that one really evolved because I helped start one of the first LGBT centers in the community college world. I started presenting about it at conferences and people ate it up and I was like, well, I guess someone needs to like write a manual or a how to, and like really promote that out there. So my side hustle is really just emerged from me being passionate about social justice, specifically within higher education and not being able to just sit still in wanting to do something about it. And so that’s been an honor and a privilege that I get to do this kind of work. And you know, it’s a job, but it’s also a lifelong purpose.

Glenn DeGuzman:
I love hearing your story. And especially as you’re able to tie your work with your passion, so, and getting paid. So definitely looking forward to hearing more from you as well. Joshua. Let’s go to Nat. Our very own Nat from Student Affairs Now, actually, Nat.

Nat Ambrosey:
Hi, I’m so great to hear from both of you, Marney and Joshua. My name is Nat Ambrosey. I use she her pronouns. I’m currently in San Diego, so the sunny San Diego. I love it here. My current work, I am actually not in student affairs. But then that’s all I talk about my side hustle. I am a Digital Storyteller for a company called RISE Athletes, which was founded by two Olympians who really wanted to change the game of mental health and Mindset Development for youth athletes in sport. So I helped create the website and do graphic design and video for them. Different institutions that I’ve worked at. I went to school at the University of Delaware in Florida, and then worked in athletics at the University of Arizona. And I know both Glenn and Marney from Berkeley. So a little bit about my side hustle.

Nat Ambrosey:
I am actually the production assistant for Student Affairs Now. So usually I’m behind the scenes and at the end of the episodes, it’s like, we want to give a shout out to Nat for, you know, doing this episode. Well, here I am. And so I would say it was probably the beginning of this year, Glenn reached out to me and was like, Hey, we’re looking for someone to kind of help us out with Student Affairs Now, would you be interested? I know you’re not in student affairs. But I jumped at the opportunity because even though my main background is in creative design, I still had a passion for student affairs and still do. I did my under not undergrad. I wish. My grad school in student affairs. And so this opportunity to be able to still be in like the student affairs realm, cause I listened to each and every podcast and I’ve learned so much and I’m like, wow, a lot has changed even in the year that I haven’t been in it. Has just been amazing. So that’s a little bit about me.

Glenn DeGuzman:
Thanks, Nat. It’s actually kind of fun too. Cause when I do get to the end and when I thank you actually get to see you right on the video, so that’s going to be going to cool. So let’s jump right in. And Marney, I want to ask you this question, you know, I think side hustle obviously has been around for awhile, but I think one of the key pieces about side hustles, it’s been controversial into something in different ways. I think oftentimes people talk about, you know, they don’t want to talk about side hustle, whether it’s with their supervisor or just letting their institution, or they’re engaging in that. And I know that you’ve been a big supporter of side hustles, but I’d like to hear from your perspective, why do you think this topic is controversial to the point where people just don’t talk about it?

Marney Randle:
I really appreciate this question because I think it gives us a chance to really dive right in and be really clear about talking about side hustles and how that ties into primary work and navigating all of that. I think in my experience some of the things that tie into, you know, side hustle of being controversial or something that makes people not want to talk about side hustles is a lot of different things. So the first that comes to mind is this idea about conflict of interest. And so I know some folks are kind of, you know, nervous about talking about what the type of what their side hustle is because they don’t want to fear about like, oh, well you’re using your primary work to connect with people, to bring them over, to benefit for you personally for your side hustle.

Marney Randle:
So I think, you know, conflict of interest is something that I’ve navigated a lot in my work as a coach and entrepreneur. And so I’ve actually kind of flipped the script on that a little bit. And so when I applied, for example, at my, my role at Berkeley I was very clear to say, I have a, I have a coaching business. This is what I do. This is what I bring to the work in a sense of a coaching lens and out of respect for my primary employer and for my business, I will really keep those as separate as possible. And so being clear about that and also being clear with clients to say, I do work at Berkeley. If there’s a Berkeley connection, I kind of think about how we can be as clear as possible about that, or maybe I’m not the best person for them to work with and I can do some referrals where applicable.

Marney Randle:
So I think talking about that and saying conflict of interest is understandable and it’s something to think about. I think another thing that comes up a lot is there’s this fear of, if I share that I have a side hustle, that my employer will think that I’m not focused enough on my primary work. And so I’m really thinking about how we separate ourselves from our primary work and our business. So I think that there’s a lot of ways to navigate that and to be clear about, okay, these are my work hours and these are my side hustle hours. And some of the ways that I will model that is I’ll be very clear with people who I talk with today. I’m a morning person and I am not best in my business things in the morning before I start my primary Berkeley work. And that’s helpful because I don’t like her multitask.

Marney Randle:
I’m not really the best at it. And also it allows me to really focus on my side hustle and then to really shift and focus on my primary work. That is both are deserving of my, my full attention. Another thing that comes up is this idea around imposter syndrome. So folks feeling like they’re not, you know, good enough to actually have a side hustle or they’re not qualified enough to have a side hustle. And so they often may minimize it and say like, oh, I have this thing I like to do on the side. I volunteer, I do this, but it’s not really that big of a deal. We don’t really need to talk about it. Let’s just talk about my primary work. And I think a lot of that ties into the sense of confidence and, and owning it and saying, yeah, I, I do have this side hustle, I’m building this business or I’m starting to meet some more clients or I’m, I’m really interested in exploring further and this is something that’s developing for me.

Marney Randle:
And I know that that confidence piece is something that I’ve definitely you know, been challenged with as someone who, as I shared earlier, as part of my intro, you know, I’m multiracial woman leader. Like I have a lot of things where I often second guess myself. And so that ties into that imposter syndrome and the confidence. And also the last piece I think about side hustles is sometimes they are a necessity for people. And that is, that is real. Sometimes we have the opportunity to embrace a side hustle as some point of privilege, where is the passion area? Whereas other folks are saying like, no, I need this side hustle out of necessity. And once again, it kind of ties into the fear of not being focused on primary work or this idea that I might be, I might be, you know, judged or being misperceived about what I’m doing for my side hustle. And I don’t want that to be brought into my primary work. So I think there’s a lot more, but those are some of the main things that, that come to my mind initially.

Glenn DeGuzman:
Thank you, Marney, you know, you know, when you, when you shared that your, your point about imposter syndrome resonated with me, for sure. You know, I think as a first generation professional, confidence was a big piece and I really didn’t even start engaging in my side hustle until much further into my professional career. And it really took the support and help from other people just to kind of even recognize that I did have a skillset and I do have this passion that I can engage in other, other pieces of work outside of my primary work. Joshua, Marney spoke also about pulling a piece from what she just shared about that this concern of side hustles, pulling folks away from their primary work. And there has been perspective that see the engagement of the student affairs professionals in work outside their employment as a distraction from their full-time work. We talk about wellness and balance. We talk about student affairs already stretched thin. Newer professionals are still learning how to balance their plate. So it doesn’t side hustles really go like encouraging side hustles, go against that. And how would you respond to that?

Joshua Moon-Johnson:
Yeah, I mean, I think Marney hit on so many good points and I support those. I think a few key things that Marney had owned, one is being very transparent and communicating with your organization and your supervisor, that it shouldn’t be something that sneaky or you’re hiding. It’s a really questioning like, okay, how am I doing this and communicating with this as well. So that’s a really key point with it at that point. I think when thinking about like the ethical considerations, I think one big ethical consideration is our institutions need to pay people what they deserve and then maybe they won’t be so many students affairs people wih three side hustles as we’re trying to like make a living and pay off student loans. And so I know when I first started out doing jobs randomly, my first student affairs job was as a resident director.

Joshua Moon-Johnson:
And I think almost all of us had something on the side. And so I worked at Express at the mall on Saturdays and on one evening a week it was like, okay, I can do something else. And so, but many of my colleagues worked at coffee shops for servers, all kinds of things. So I think that that’s pretty normal for entry-level student affairs professionals. Because we know student affairs doesn’t often pay what it should pay. And I think as my career has evolved, I don’t have to do this for money anymore. I do it because I want our society in our institutions to be better places specifically for marginalized folks. And so if anybody were to tell me that me trying to do social justice advocacy consulting for another institution, I would question their ethics. And so that’s a key point with it too, for anytime I’m going to consult or speak at another institution.

Joshua Moon-Johnson:
My supervisor knows about those things. And I think when it comes to, if it’s something where I’m traveling across the country for a few days, or if I’m even leaving my work to go to an institution 30 minutes away, I take vacation time for those kinds of things. We typically get lots of vacation, at least in public institutions. So I’m okay to use mine for those things. That’s not a big deal. Similar to Marney. Right now one of my clients is institutional in the east coast. I do a lot of 6:00 AM meetings cause it’s 9:00 AM on the east coast for me in California. So I can do a couple of meetings between six and eight and still do my normal job. I find that doing other projects often helps me balance a little bit better because I think every institution I’ve worked at that you could give your whole life and you’ll will never be done with the work that you do.

Joshua Moon-Johnson:
And so student affairs is all consuming. And so as I’ve learned how to balance my personal life with side projects or passion projects with my full-time job, I’ve learned to balance a lot more. So my first few student affairs jobs, I was probably working 60 hours a week and living in the residence hall. So you never really off. And so this has been really helpful for me to have kind of defined times when I’m working on different projects. But I think a few key things is really communicate and be transparent with your supervisor organization and make sure that you are managing your time adequately. I think for anyone wanting to do kind of side work or side hustles or businesses definitely make sure you got your core job like on lock. Like you have it done your at least at that meeting expectations level before you try to bring on other things and do many things as well. Cause you do want to make sure that your, your job that probably is bringing you benefits is secure. And that you’re happy in that environment.

Glenn DeGuzman:
Thank you for that. You know Joshua and Marney, you speak to the relationship that needs the communication that needs to occur between the individual and their supervisor. When, you know, when you start to look into side hustles and Natalie, I want to pose this question to you. You know, obviously I think even, you know, I think about just the number of student affairs professionals that I know of who are talking about and more openly open about their side hustles outside of their primary roles. How can university support professionals if they’re interested or and engaging in side hustles or already in a side hustle from your experience, what has helped you?

Nat Ambrosey:
Yeah, I think that’s a really good question. It’s funny because actually the other day I was talking to one of my friends who I was an RA with and she’s an academic advisor back at our undergraduate institution. And she said, you know, I want to do something on the side just to, you know, lighten up what I’m doing. Like it’s great being an academic advisor, but I get off three o’clock. So what else could I do? And she’s like, you know, a Target opened up. Maybe I’ll want to do that. Cause she’s definitely a very extroverted person. So that could be good. And we did have the discussion both what Marney and Joshua said about, you know, what does that look like talking to your supervisor? And one of the things, so when I was working at the University of Arizona, I was a graphic designer in the athletics department.

Nat Ambrosey:
But I also supervised students. So it kind of brought everything together with the student affairs aspect, but also working in athletics. And I was also doing the side hustle for graphic design. And so one of the things that I had the conversation with my supervisor was, Hey, this is something that I want to do. It’s not going to be during work hours. And similar to student affairs, athletics, you work 70 plus hours a week, pre COVID, because when there’s football games and basketball games and things like that so she knew, okay, you need to figure out what your time management is and how you’re going to structure your time with that, but you also need to be at work. And so I think one of the things that we chatted about was that trust piece. So she knew that she could trust me that I was going to get my work done and it was going to be to its fullest potential.

Nat Ambrosey:
So the thing with design as well is, you know, you can put all your effort one place, and then you’re like, okay, what now? Like, do I have any more energy to do this? So she wasn’t worried, but I could see that that could be a concern for some supervisors, if you’re doing something very similar in your full-time job and as your side hustle. So really just that communication and trust. And one of the things that I found was really beneficial for me is that what I was doing in my side hustle only improved what I was doing in my job. And I was reading an article the other day about how cool would it be if student affairs professionals you know, shared what they were learning in their side hustles with their teams or with other departments? I think everyone can learn so much more we’re in our one jobs and we’re doing that one thing, but what are the other things? My top skill or top strength is learner. So I’m always wanting to learn about new things. So I would love it. If someone from, you know, I was in ResLife, if someone from orientation office was doing something and they came and shared so things like that of taking it as, yes, it is something that’s not your job that you’re doing on the side, but it really could impact your job in such a positive way.

Glenn DeGuzman:
I would also add it also probably helps with culture as well. I think what you just shared made me think about the fact that even in my side hustle, I have had people in my department approach me and asking questions because they were curious not necessarily to pursue it as a side hustle, but they just had a question because of the knowledge and the experience I might, I have in, in what I do. So thanks for sharing that. I want to shift a little bit, I know that and I want to pose this question for Marney. I know over the years you facilitated conversations with other student affairs professionals on the sort of like the art of the side hustle. And I think that really does a lot in normalizing this, this the reality that people do engage in side hustles. I’m curious to know in those conversations that you have, what do you talk about and what are you hearing as to why more student affairs professionals are pursuing side hustles?

Marney Randle:
Yeah. Thank you, Glenn. And it’s, it’s really been my honor, and I’m very humbled to be able to, to share you know, space to talk about my experience with side hustles and to share resources and best practices, and to also learn from other folks in those spaces too. And you know, I do also want to a blessing from what I’m not has shared too about the trust piece, because I think that is a really important element and I, I wanted to make sure I touched on that. Even with my response about communication, about communication, about what side hustle I’m doing and how that ties into my work. And I know that there’s a trust piece with that, you know, I’ve trusted my, my supervisor or my team members to talk for me to share what my side hustle is and how that ties into, you know, me and my passion areas.

Marney Randle:
But I also wouldn’t want to I wouldn’t want for that to be assumed. And I hope, I hope that makes sense, especially because we are talking about side hustles and I want folks to also feel like it’s, it does also their their information to share because it’s student affairs. Sometimes we do get very, you know, intermeshed and you know, things that are outside of work. And I wouldn’t expect that folks like they have to share. I think it also depends on maybe what the side hustle is. So I just want to make sure I shared that here in this space. And I think some of that does tie into what I’ve, what I’ve shared about, you know, side hustles in terms of normalizing it and humanizing the work by saying, you know, here’s what my side hustle is. And talking about how I started it and how that’s connected to my passions within student affairs, within mentorship within, you know, providing people access to information and to help reduce barriers.

Marney Randle:
Because I think a lot of barriers, you know, throughout my life and I wasn’t sure of who to go to. And so that’s why I wanted to start my side hustle to give space for that. And so I love to share about my why and how I did it. And I’m very open about talking about that and what resources I’ve navigated because it’s very best effort if it’s mine and I’m the sole person who works, you know, in my coaching business, I don’t have a team to, you know, marketing or you know, social media, things like that. And and so being able to talk about that and say, I didn’t, I didn’t have a lot of social capital about how start a business or have a lot of financial support to make that happen.

Marney Randle:
And I think that’s important to share with folks because I think often there’s this idea about what an entrepreneur is, what they look like, what information that they they’re already operating with and what resources they may have. And I really, really want to debunk that. And so a lot of that in my conversation has been about making the implicit explicit. And so asking folks like, what questions do you have? Here’s the resources I’ve used? How can this be beneficial to you? And what idea are you thinking about doing for a side hustle and how can I support you and how can I help to propel you forward? And so being able to, to engage in like mutual learning together is always really beneficial.

Glenn DeGuzman:
Thank you. You know, Marney shared a lot of information right there, Joshua, and it makes me think about a 2013 dissertation that I was able to not read, but peruse my Dr. Tara Frank, which made me speak or made me aware of like a lot of the unspoken work that student affairs professionals taken on for a variety of different reasons. And I want to kind of hit on something that you, you kind of raised earlier about the fact that, you know, a lot of particular, this generation of folks they’re coming out with big student loans. There’s a lot of, there’s a lot of money over there. You know, trying to just survive to survive or thrive in places where just rent, you know, cost of living just keeps rising, rising. And so I oftentimes hear a lot of student affairs professionals talk about passion projects, but, and I always wonder, is it really about the passion project or is it, is it really about the money, meaning that they just it’s just too expensive to not be able to have a side hustle in your primary student affairs role?

Glenn DeGuzman:
I know that there’s been many articles, there’s been a lot of offline conversations about like what you said earlier. We just, our field may not pay well, particularly for the entry-level and the level of Student Affairs professionals. I’ve actually even seen, you know, obviously folks who’ve been engaging in side hustles where they’re realizing it pays more and they’re going to pursue that side. So then they are going to leave the field. I’d love your thoughts just on that that sort of thought, like, is it about money?

Joshua Moon-Johnson:
I mean, I think sometimes it isn’t, sometimes it’s not, it really depends. I think the person in this situation but I think that it’s a tough spot to be in it. And I think for our institutions of higher education and even student affairs, which we think of us as very humanistically focused, it’s like we don’t often see our employees as humans. We see them as what they can do for our students. And it’s always like, of course students first students first, but at some point, if you can’t support yourself as an individual and you’re not happy and healthy and whole, you’re not going to be able to students. And so I think that that’s a challenge that many of us, as supervisors, managers, administrators, need to continue to learn that these are people that we’re talking about. And sometimes these people have little mouths that they’re trying to feed.

Joshua Moon-Johnson:
And so I think that that’s complicated. So I think when it comes to things around like money, yeah. I think that if you’re paying your staff members a certain wage and they can’t even afford to live in the community that they’re working, there’s what else do you expect them to do? My, I was I finished my doctorate degree and I was a director at a University in CA in Santa Barbara. And when my student loan bills hit, I can barely afford a studio apartment. And this is as a director with a doctorate degree. And so I didn’t last very long at that institution once I started to have to manage that. And so, you know, what, I moved to the Midwest. And so, but even before doing that I got a part-time teaching job. So there was a small liberal arts school that I taught two classes a semester there because I needed that money to actually pay off my student loans and to afford my rent.

Joshua Moon-Johnson:
So at that point, I guess I love teaching. I wanted to be a more well-rounded educator, but I also needed that money to when I didn’t need the money anymore. I still taught because I liked it and continued with that. So then it did become more of a passion product project. And so I think what other thing, especially as we think about all of the student development theories we all did in grad school we don’t even think about it, us as professionals and human adults that we evolve and develop as well. And so I would love it if all of the folks that I knew growing up in student affairs and those hundreds of undergrads that I recruited to be enough to make, go into student affairs if they were still around. But even in the last two years, probably I don’t even know how many enough NASPA undergraduate fellows that I’ve had in my career.

Joshua Moon-Johnson:
Probably half of them have left student affairs. It didn’t makes me kind of sad. And then number of them, they wanted to live in California, maybe particularly the bay area. And they started to realize that if I want to choose my personal life and living near my family or living with my partner and I can’t move every three to five years, I can’t stay in this field. And so I think that that was one thing. The other thing is as humans we evolve and student affairs was wonderful and interesting when we were 23. Is it still interesting when we’re 33? Is that really what drives us now? So I think that we have to be understanding that people are in different circumstances and people evolve and change with their, within their own lives too.

Glenn DeGuzman:
And it leads them to this, you know this, this next question that I have actually, for all of you, I’d love to hear each of you kind of share your thoughts on this and it’s tied to the lessons that you would want to give others who had thinking about, or want to begin their side hustle. I think you all kind of, sort of mentioned pieces throughout this conversation thus far, and I’m hoping we can encapsulate some of that into this, but if you could share one to two lessons that you would you’d want to give and share with others, and let’s go to Joshua.

Joshua Moon-Johnson:
I’ll jump in. I mean, I think that it’s something, if you’re interested in do it, and I would say one of the key things too, is develop your area of expertise if you’re doing it because you want this to be term make sure you spend the time developing that skillset. So before I ever tried to ask someone to come pay me to speak on their campus, I probably did 50 presentations at NASPA and ACPA. I was presenting all over the place on what I was researching best practices. And then people would come to my presentation and say, Hey, I really liked that. Can you come do a professional development for my institution? I was like, oh, well, wait, someone’s going to pay me to do this. And then after I published my first book, it was like, oh, this person has spent three years researching and writing this.

Joshua Moon-Johnson:
And this is something that I could contribute. And so, and I think like Marney, I had a lot of imposter syndrome. Like why would someone pay me? Or if they want to ask me to come and they don’t say anything about money, like, should I ask for money? I don’t even know. And then eventually I had to start saying like, I’m taking off time for work to come to your campus to speak. So I’m actually taking a financial loss by coming to present this. So I started to really have to think about like, okay, I should be asking for this, but I had developed that expertise. And I should be able to ask for that. And especially even when I’m doing pro bono type of stuff, I make it very clear of as a first gen per person of color. You shouldn’t ask people to do this kind of work.

Joshua Moon-Johnson:
That’s my own personal, emotional labor and trauma for free, but I might do it for you because I like you. But, but normally it’s just a little bit upsetting and it’s systemically problematic when people do that. And so and no shame to people who’ve done that before. I still love y’all. And then I think the second thing with that, I would really say too, is it doesn’t start quickly. It’s not like you’re, I mean, maybe some of you, but it wasn’t like, oh, I’m going to start this side hustle. Then all of a sudden you booked full time. It really takes some time, take some planning, take some retreat time for yourself to really plan out what’s my business plan with this as well. If you want it to be a business, do a business plan, do some research on that. I was fortunate that my undergrad and grad were in business, so I kind of pulled out those old textbooks. It was like, how do I do this? How do I create a communication plan? It takes planning and it takes time. And so I think that the ball will roll and it’ll get busier. And then before, you know, it, like, you don’t even have to do much marketing because word of mouth and your reputation will just kind of carry you to many opportunities.

Glenn DeGuzman:
Josh, I want to quickly add, you know, I’d love what you just shared in particular, because I think that, you know, our field in general doesn’t have a lot of money. So if we’re going to spend money on someone to come in to do, let’s say let’s, we were to bring you in. We want to make sure that you, you have spent time on your craft and you have the expertise. And so I think that even exposure you don’t you’re right. I’ve seen folks I’m like, wow, that was just wonderful. I want that person to come to my campus and to talk about X or Y or Z. So I really liked how you kind of approach that, your work in that. Nat I’d like to hear from you lessons.

Nat Ambrosey:
Yeah, so I think one of the first things I want to touch on is a little bit, and I, I think Marney had said this, but of like, what side hustle do I pick if I want to do something like this? And I’ve had colleagues in the past, they like, oh, it’s so great. Like you’re a graphic designer. So even in working in student affairs, when I was at Berkeley, for instance, I did graphic design as well as part of my role. And the one thing that I like to give advice to people is, everyone has that thing that they’re really good at. And it might not be a specific skill like design or consulting or coaching, but there is something that you do that’s better than anyone else. And so just having that confidence in yourself and similar to what Joshua was saying. Reach out to people.

Nat Ambrosey:
So how I got involved in my current job at RISE, I Instagram message them. So I’m a little younger but I Instagram DM them and said, Hey, I really love what you’re doing. This is something that I find like a passionate mental health and mindset. I’d love to volunteer my time. So I started off with a few hours a week and then kind of it grew from there. And so really just put yourself out there, reach out. The second piece I want to focus on is the work-life balance. So while it’s great, like yes, you have a full-time job, you have a side hustle. You also like, I’m a swimmer. So I like to swim and bike and I’m learning to surf. Like sometimes there’s so many things that you can do, but you also need to find the time to be able to do what you need to do for work, but also to relax.

Nat Ambrosey:
So it’s great to have a side hustle and it’s great. Especially like we were talking about before the finances wise. And I think even now with COVID a lot of budgets at institutions have been cut. And so professional development is one of those things. So with a side hustle, that’s kind of your own professional development. And so just realizing how can I structure my time, but also give time to myself. And for me, I don’t have a family. Like I don’t have kids, well, I have a family, but I don’t have kids. I don’t have pets. So I’m kind of on my own and I get to structure my time. But if there’s anything I could say to people with parents or parents with kids is like, take that time to spend with your kids. Cause they’re going to remember when you were there and, and not working all the time. So just a little bit about that.

Glenn DeGuzman:
Note to self. I got to spend more time with my kids. Nat, I would actually, I wanted to touch on what you just said too. And it’s reminding me, you know, especially since you’re not in student affairs, you know your primary work is in another area. It’s also reminded me as we’re talking about just side hustles, we’ve talked about side hustles that are adjacent to, or connected to our field, right. And passionate areas. But there is also a lot of student affairs professionals who are engaging in additional work that isn’t even connected to higher ed. They might, I think Joshua mentioned it or they could be in retail. They can be I know a colleague who creates crafts and has sold it on Etsy. You know, I think about people who do art and the commission and sell some of the art. There’s just different things that people engage in sort of like to your point, net pursuing talent and pursuing passion. So thanks for that.

Nat Ambrosey:
I could add something really quick. So for those, if you’re listening and you’re not in student affairs, like me, there’s still plenty of ways that if you still have that little piece of fire in you that says like, I really like student affairs, but I’m doing this other thing. There’s ways for you to get involved, reach back out to the mentors that you had to your old supervisors. If you were a hall director, reach out to your RA, like maybe they’re doing something in student affairs. So there’s definitely ways to also get connected kind of the opposite way.

Glenn DeGuzman:
Well said, Marney, what are some of the lessons you would like to pass on?

Marney Randle:
Yeah, well, you know, Joshua and Nat you all shared some huge gems already that I was kind of thinking about as well. So awesome, awesome gems for sure. I think some of the things that come to mind is I talked about this a little bit already, but when it comes to the side hustle really recognize your value and that imposter syndrome is so real and it creeps up and it may continue to creep up. And with that, I really pushed myself to think about things from a business mindset. And so Joshua, that’s awesome to know that you had a business background because I didn’t. And so I had to learn all these things, but also had to change my, my brain a little bit in terms of thinking about, okay, if someone has approached me with a problem and I have a solution as part of my business, but that’s, that’s part of my business model.

Marney Randle:
And so not, not giving away services for free and that’s hard and in a field like student affairs or other, other helping professions, because I want to help people. And it’s, it doesn’t feel always very used, like natural that they share. I can help you for this fee. And, but I also had reminded myself, you know, I have, for example, I have a really good friend of mine who owns a restaurant and, you know, that’s a tangible goods. So folks walk in, they ordered, they pay, they get their food. And so similar for coaching, if I’m giving coaching services to someone that there’s a cost associated with that. And also I do do a lot of pro bono work and Joshua, I love how you said this because I do the same. Do I say I would love to, I would love to help you out.

Marney Randle:
Let’s talk about this and also how can I support you and think about what books can contribute at the same time, having a really direct conversation to say, this is something I typically do as part of a service. And though I really appreciate your mission, or I really appreciate our connection, our relationship, and because it’s of some kind of blurring friends and money is also a little bit challenging too. So just approaching each thing with a different perspective, but also connecting back to the business. And then the other thing is just having, you know, intentionality of the side hustle. And I know we’ve talked about this already, but folks might be really passionate about something or really great at something. And that’s awesome. And if you try it as a side hustle and it takes some time, as Joshua said, and also if you try it and it’s not really new sticking for you, that’s okay too.

Marney Randle:
You can always try something else and, and bring that, bring that skill with you. And you know, I think we kind of talked about this already, but there are quite a few reasons why people do side hustles. And I think I want us to make sure we kind of talk about that specifically, but a little bit more and maybe end with that about the intentionality is it can be about passion or interests and, or as I mentioned, it might be for necessity or financial means or just, I think Nat talked about this around like fulfillment outside of primary work and, or just connection to future opportunities. So if there’s, if you want to learn about a different field or different office or profession might be great to say, Hey, let me, when you volunteer, like Nat said, or can I, you know, sit in and learn some things and maybe do some you know, graphic design for you, or, you know, offer some coaching sessions for your team just to better understand the work environment or help out. So I think there’s a lot of options, but just having intentionality around that.

Glenn DeGuzman:
Thank you, Marney. And I’m looking at time, we’re starting to get near and I want to make sure that we have time for all of you to kind of engage in our traditional last question that we have at Student Affairs Now, which is it’s an opportunity for you to maybe summarize what you’re currently thinking about what you’re questioning, maybe something that you heard in this, in this conversation that excites you, or maybe even just some of the concerns that you have if you can take maybe 60 seconds or so to just kinda wrap it up. And let’s start with Joshua.

Joshua Moon-Johnson:
Yeah. As I think about the type of consulting speaking that I do mostly within higher education around equity inclusion, social justice it’s becoming much more requested around kind of social justice, equity types of things because our institutions are not, are pretty hostile climates to folks who are on the ground doing the work as full-time jobs. The number of friends who I had in senior level DEI jobs who left higher education because of the hostility and the lack of support and the tokenism, all of those things. So now many institutions are wanting to bring in outsiders because no one will stay at those institutions. So I think that with that, yes, I love to go be able to support people and to consult. But I think we also need to think about the folks who are at those institutions, doing those work, how do we support them and retain them and develop them as well?

Joshua Moon-Johnson:
If the only people specifically let’s say like BiPOC folks or and trans folks or women of color, like the only folks you can get to come is that you pay to come to your campus for two to four days. That’s kind of problematic too. So I think that that’s kind of where I still have a lot of thoughts and questions when I come in as an outsider to do DEI consulting workers speaking. And then I get to leave and I kind of love that about it too. But also I feel sad when I leave and I know that the people that I’ve talked to are left in that environment, that’s often not the most positive.

Glenn DeGuzman:
Thanks for raising them. That’s a good, that’s a good perspective Nat

Nat Ambrosey:
Yeah, so I think I’ve been thinking about this as I produce each podcast. So I listened through, I transcribed do all of that. And one of the things I was talking to a friend who’s never been in student affairs, doesn’t even know what it is. So I was explaining a little bit to her about what it is and talking about one of our most recent episodes. And she was like, why don’t like more of the world talk about this. Like, I think it was the episode on policing and campus. And I was like, oh, well, I’ll share the episode, but really like, how are we taking what we’re talking about? Because I think it is so much more than just on a college campus and how do we bring it to people who, who may not know what student affairs is, who may not have even went to college and really just kind of expand our knowledge. So if you’re out there too, I really highly encourage you to share this with people who may not be in the field. Because I think we could really start a conversation that’s larger than just institutions of higher.

Glenn DeGuzman:
I agree with you that I share student first and then with actually a lot of my friends who are not in the field and they enjoy it and Marney close us out.

Marney Randle:
Sure. So I, I’m thinking about a lot of things and you know, I really appreciate the perspective that Joshua and that have shared a lot around, you know, accessibility of like folks or consulting, presenting, you know, being able to go to a space for a couple of days. And then we and also this idea about how do we keep these conversations going? You know, I’m very honored to be able to be on this panel and talk about side hustles and, you know, share space with Joshua and Matt and you Glenn. And also I’m asking myself, okay, well, what’s next? Like how can be, you know, actively engaged with this information differently to contribute to not only the profession, but to other aspects of education and beyond because you know, deep down, I do believe that, you know, we’re all learners and I know I’m, I’ve never, I’ve never done learning and growing and that ripples, you know, to myself internally and externally to the people that I engage with. So how can they bring up this mindset of continuing to be learners and to engage in this information, whether it’s about side hustles or all of the other awesome things that student affairs now is doing, because there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of energy and a lot of intelligence and a lot of skills in our virtual room right now and beyond. So looking forward to future opportunities, to collaborate and to, to share our knowledge and learn together.

Glenn DeGuzman:
Thank you, Marney. And with that, we’ve reached our time and I want to thank Nat Marni and Joshua for being my guests today on this episode on side hustles, I want to kind of, additionally, I want to kind of think Marney for suggesting this topic. I thought this was a really great piece. And then also for introducing Joshua to me, I think that this, this conversation has just been amazing. And I think and obviously I have, this is the fun part I get to show off to my, my Phillip goes, I get to think NATS Rosie right here, who does all the behind scenes works for these episodes, making sure they get ready for release. So and again, I also want to thank our sponsors, stylist publishing an anthology. These shows would not be possible without them. So thank you so much.

Glenn DeGuzman:
And to our audience and listeners. Thanks for joining us. If you’re listening today and if you’re not already receiving our weekly newsletter, please do that. Please visit our website at sin. The first now.com scroll to the bottom of the homepage, add your email to the mail MailChimp list. And while you’re there, perusal, check it out. Nat puts a lot of time and effort into organizing it along with Heather. So check out our archives. And I also just want to share that we hit a major milestone. We have over 10,000 downloads and the number of subscribers just keeps on growing. And we know it is all because of our listeners and our audience out there. So please continue to, to share this. It makes us free for everyone. Again, I’m glad to Guzman, thanks for spending time with us and listening to our episode or watching that you’re on. If you’re going to be looking at a YouTube, I hope you really enjoyed this episode. I know I did wherever you are. Go out and make it a good day. Bye everyone.

Websites: 

Side hustle

www.marneyrandle.com

www.nambrosey.com 

www.joshuamoonjohnson.com

www.Pmjconsulting.us

Books: 

Beyond Surviving: From Religious Oppression to Queer Activism

Queer People of Color in Higher Educaiton

Authentic Leadership: An Engaged Discussion of LGBTQ Work Queer & Trans Advocacy in the Community College (forthecoming with Stylus Publishing).

Videos

Article/Book citations:

Frank, Tara (2013) “Why Do They Leave? Departure from the Student Affairs Profession” https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.835.7458&rep=rep1&type=pdf

The Rise of the ‘Side Hustle’ in Student Affairs: How Entrepreneurship is Changing the Future of Higher Education / https://www.kyleashlee.com/blog/the-rise-of-the-side-hustle-in-student-affairs