Richard Reddick
Well, you know, you got to kind of stride to skate. It’s how it works. And at some point, I said to her, I said, you know, are you afraid of falling? And she’s like, Yeah, falling hurts, like, good point. It does hurt. I said, but what if we found a way to fall safe? Right? What if I taught you how to walk? Because you’re going to fall? Falling is absolutely part of being a skater, right? Professional skaters doing ice skaters? Do they all fall? So if you learn how to fall safely, I’ll bet she’ll be more successful in this game. And of course, like last week, hey, can we go to the go to play when, of course, and they’re out there for hours skating and going backwards. I can’t do that, stuff like that. And so what I loved about that was just the fearlessness. Because she accepted the fact like falling is part of the game and is going to deal with it. And I think a lot of times you dispatch that Mamta. So we often say, Well, this possibility can happen. And look, you and I have been situations that have not been pleasant, right? And we have fallen, maybe unsafely. But we also had a community of people around us to say, We got your back, and we know who you are.

Mamta Accapadi
Welcome to Student Affairs NOW, the online learning community for Student Affairs educators, I’m your host Mamta Accapadi. Student Affairs NOW is a premier podcast and learning community for 1000s of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays find this at Student Affairs now.com on YouTube or anywhere you listen to podcasts. Today’s episode is sponsored by Symplicity. A true partner simplicity supports all aspects of student life with technology platforms that empower institutions to make data driven decisions. Stay tuned to the end of the podcast for more information about our sponsor. As I shared earlier, my name is Mamta Accapadi pronouns are she her hers, and I am broadcasting to you today from Austin, Texas. Austin, Texas is situated on the unseeded ancestral homeland of the hermanos while real thick on Comanche, leapin Apache and tonka with people’s my friends. This is just such a full full full circle moment. You can’t imagine how I’m feeling today. I can’t tell you how much I cherish our feature podcast guest. Dr. Richard Reddick is one of the most brilliant, thoughtful and grounded educators that I know. His abundant spirit and presence is a shining light for me and so many others in his life. Dr Reddick is a Distinguished Service Professor in educational leadership and policy and Senior Vice Provost for curriculum and engage enrollment, and Dean of Undergraduate Studies at the University of Texas at Austin. Some fun facts Rich is a past champion of wheel of fortune, and jeopardy of greatest meaning and purpose though, his most important titles are husband to his wife, Sherry and dads and his son Carl and daughter, Katherine. With that, welcome, Rich. Let’s begin. I’m just so grateful to have you on the podcast today. I’m really excited. I’m sure this is going to reveal itself soon. So we might as well just, you know, come out in the open we should just within our own long time. But before we go into that, I’m really excited that we get to talk about your book, and your research, really, it’s an aggregate of a lot of your research over time. But your book, I’m holding it here, friends, there we go. Restorative resistance in higher education, leading in an era of racial awakening and reckoning. So as we talk about our Connected story, I just want to start with a quote, one of my favorite quotes in the book and this isn’t particularly scholar, this is the research that you talk about. Diversity and inclusion was by was my unofficial undeclared major via activities and involvement on campus. I just love that self reflection that you shared and opening the book. But as we get into the book, let’s talk about your journey. I know our journeys intersect, but I want to hear about your journey to higher education.

Richard Reddick
Oh, that’s that’s such a great and Mamta it was hard for me to sit here quietly during the introduction. I wanted to say a little smart alec comments as you were talking, because we are such such good friends and such good buddies, we go back so far. But I it’s just a joy to be on this podcast with you and just to share the space. So yes, I think, you know, within seconds of knowing me people know, I’m first gen so I came to University of Texas. My parents are great champions of education, but did not go for high school. And their dream, of course for me was to go and pursue my degree without quite knowing what that meant. And so from the day I was dropped off in front of the Dhobi doorman in front of 2021 Guadalupe Street, it’s kind of like, okay, you’re doing your thing, you know, enjoy it. And, you know, let us know if you need help, but you’ll figure it out. And I actually appreciated that approach they had, which was like they were never too involved in a times I thought that Why aren’t you more involved with this, but they basically give me a chance to grow. And it also forced me to build connections, and sort of navigate the space. And one thing that the book talks about in that chapter is just the fact that I come from a military family i i moved 12 times school 12 times before I graduate from high school. So I’m very used to sort of having to figure out things and that would suggest that my work on mentoring is kind of tied to that because I was often the new kid. And as a new kid, you have to figure out how systems work. Who are the bullies, who are the allies, who are the people who are going to be helpful to you where people are going to be detrimental to you those kinds of things. Excellent. And so, literally the first day I was on campus, I went to an event at Clark field when he was actually a field leader, just a patch of land. And it was the welcome program. It just said, welcome. I didn’t know what they were welcoming to. But they had free food. And I went to that program and I think I went to the get the free food frequently. And it was very Flacco back in those days, I was very skinny. To the point I attracted the attention. The woman ran the program, and it was Brenda Byrd. And she said, Well, you should come back tomorrow, you clearly need a meal, right? And I came back the next day. And I realized this is the place and a person I would connect to. So Brenda Byrd, our shared mentor and dear friend started that process for me. And I felt my sense of connection to her. And I don’t think it’s a coincidence that as a black woman, my first encounter University of Texas of substance was with another black with a black woman. So she ended up being my other mother, she mothered me, throughout the university process, I became an orientation advisor and a peer advisor and resident advisor, during which I got to be had the privilege of being marked as Ra.

Mamta Accapadi
Okay, let’s be very clear. You know, like, if we’re gonna reveal secrets, you were my RA and my neighbor. And I, we met because of noise, right? I believe there was faith no more, no more Metallica or Def Leppard or something. So, so yes, I credit you for definitely, reining me in and separating the

Richard Reddick
I got to tell the story though, because, you know, when you think about people who are noisy, it’s not monitored, or a roommate, these were very, very well mannered, and very scholarly students who have liked to rock out a little bit. And so, you know, usually think about the guy with the long drag hair. This wasn’t them, but they love them some Faith No More as it is. And it was just like, hey, let’s get to a certain point. But what’s really interesting about that, as you’re sort of growing and being mentored yourself, you’re starting to recognize the opportunities and potential others. And, you know, I went to my sister’s room one day, and I said, Look, you know, we have this orientation advisor program, and I’m part of it, you should think about it. And I think you said no, very quickly.

Mamta Accapadi
But before you came to my room, you wave to the application, you know, back in the days of paper, under my door, like you kept like, we’re gonna get on and you did that a couple of things. So not subtle at all. No subtleties

Richard Reddick
in there. The reason why is because, you know, you’re a console. And it was very evident to me, you were a kind soul. And I’m like, if I want to renew your suit to the university, I wanted to meet the doctor, I want to meet people like you, I want them to feel connected. And I saw that in her and, you know, when you work as an orientation advisor, you spend so much time with each other, you get to know people and level. And I know you quite well, at that point. And I’m like, I would love to know her better as well. So it was self serving, but also the fact that I knew you would be the amazing resource. And frankly, everything you’ve done in the field of student affairs, I have taken credit for in some degree, to say, look, I want Mamta has done, she’s so amazing. And then now we have the experience of having shared mental or shared work. Justin sang was put together, you know, Justin, you know, when he first had him in my class, he would gush about Dr. Accapadi and I’m you know Mamta. And then he was blown away, like, you know each other. And like, yes, we know each other very well. And so I that’s a huge draw, I think for both of us, just to know that we’ve been in the field enough, long enough to see folks who are looking to us for inspiration, and they’re inspiring others as well. So full circle, indeed,

Mamta Accapadi
it’s full circle. And, you know, we know, we knew each other well. And then there were things that certainly we didn’t know, like, you know, I hear about your first Senate and I, you know, certainly I knew components of that. But what you don’t know is that that orientation advisor invitation saved to me, I was really struggling in school, I was alone, there was a lot of cultural right, first gen adjacent myself, in many ways, like, I didn’t not have ways to talk about what I was experiencing. And if not for that orientation intervention. I don’t know where I would be right. So you literally, you retained me as a student as a as a as a mentor. So it was much more powerful than I mean, we laugh about it, but let’s honor let’s hold sacred Yeah, that you saved me as a person. And so I want to really publicly recognize you for that too.

Richard Reddick
And that was true for me as well. So Alan Shasha Dr. Alan Shaw show who’s now works here at Central Committee healthier. Dell Medical School was my my hall director. And, you know, our had this crazy idea that he was going to assemble this team of RAS that we’re going to Be unlike RAs, report diverse RAS with different perspectives, different viewpoints, and this is like a 20 year old doing EPS it’s like he’s like a fully functional adult. And you know, I think about all the time that I’ve built some incredible friendships that I’ve learned so much from an experience. And similarly, this is Bert, you know, Renee Polk, Garland Heimlich, you know, you know, our good friend Sharon, justice, those people poured into me and saw things at you know, Dwight burns all these people who were influential who did that for me and the same thing. My first year, I was on Scholastic probation, second semester at UT. And I’m applying for jobs as Ra and OA because I did not feel I belong there. And I figured maybe way to make that happen is to get to the place better and Glenn Maloney rest in power, Glenn Maloney sat me down one day, and I was really filling myself, Oh, my God, I’m terrible at this. You know, you’re being told to tell me nice things goes to your job. And I really horrible. And he said, you just need to be connected to this place. He says, You’re brilliant, you’re gonna do brilliant things. And, you know, Glenn’s influence, and people like Glenn it’s so powerful, and you know, I can’t walk in that building without thinking about Glenn and generation of students who just know the Glenn Millennium room, that’s where you hang out. I’m like, go look at the plaque. Yes, secure Glen know, the stories just know what kind of person he was. Absolutely, and how much how much joy he expressed in all of us. And I had a chance to see him before he passed away. And it was, it was a surprise to me that it was happening, but nevertheless, just somebody who had spent his entire life truly pouring into others. well aware of his legacy.

Mamta Accapadi
Oh, absolutely. And I think about, you know, you know, you’ve already shared a lot about your, you know, the experiences, the identities that really, that, really, and I’m not gonna even say informed, they really inspire they nurture, it’s like the book came to life, because all of these love stories, if you will, just kind of bloomed through the stories. And, but so I’m gonna, I’m gonna go into the book a little bit, if that’s okay. Yes, there’s a point. And you’ve kind of led in with talking about, and I know how significant the conversation about mentoring and mentorship is to you. I think we share that in common. And I just love the section where you tell the story about you, aka the dude who asked to go to the bathroom. That section where you were talking about the, you know, like the notion of a hidden curriculum, and the role of mentoring, particularly across different identities and lived experiences. But you talked about mentoring, but then you have this phrase, or this word, mentorability. So I’d love to hear about the story. And this notion of mentorability as an elevation of mentoring and what you mean by that.

Richard Reddick
I love that story. And I was actually I actually was out on the south mall, not far from Garrison Hall. And it was going through my mind at some point in time, you know, folks, if you ever have the opportunity to go back to the institution that you were educated at and work there, you should do it, because you’ll have constant memories of things you did years ago. So what Mark is alluding to is that I went to inner city high school here in Austin, Texas, and I was a good student. But my school had pretty strict rules about egress, and, you know, leaving classes and what have you, right? Yeah, the password of the restroom, that Cassie but that, and, you know, I kind of thought, you know, college was 13th grade with more homework, right. And so I went to class one day, after lunch, I had this history class, right after lunch period, had a huge big gulp or something, and the course, had not taken a biological break. And of course, halfway through the class, the need is there. And I was sitting in the middle of the class and not many edges in the periphery. But it’s one of those lecture style classrooms where you’re like, smack in the middle of the classroom. So there’s no way to suddenly get out of this classroom. And if I had been on the periphery, I would have probably slid out quietly. So I’m like, I’m gonna get in those places, lectures are going to stop their lecture. And that’s what I’m doing. So I better secure permission first, I raised my hand. And my professor is in full lecture mode. So she sees me and keeps on going. And I’m like, well, the urge is getting more, more and more desperate. So I’m like, Ah, and she’s like, yes. What is it? And I’m like, can I go to the restroom? And she’s like, Go, what are you asking me for? And you know, kind of incredulous. And of course, I walk out, you know, like, that’s my, this 100 group of students are like, Yeah, that’s the guy with the bathroom. But it goes to show you like nobody’s ever told me like, okay, in the college setting, you just get up and go if you need to. You try to be inconspicuous. You try to make a whole lot of racket, but that’s a difference that hadn’t been explained to me and there’s no really way to know that. So I’m reminded of the work that Tony Jack has done the privilege for him. Tony is really good about talking about transparency and explaining things. So I still in the state tell my students, you know, I walk through things like that, what do you call me? You know, you can call me Doctor reading company, Doctor rich, you can call me, you know, you, I give all those kinds of things because I want them to know things. And I also want them to know that if you have to go to the restroom, or you have to come to class late, here’s how you handle it. And I’m sure for a lot of students is like, why are you telling us this stuff? We already know this. But there are some students in the classroom who don’t. And moms one thing I’ve learned in the 17 years I’ve been teaching at university is like, every time you say something that shows vulnerability, or shows that you didn’t know what was going on at all points in time, somebody in that room needs to hear you say that. Absolutely. No, they thought you were on a super high level, or they actually needed to know that information themselves. Yes. And I’m always amazed about the most innocuous thing that you dropped in conversation ended up being it’s not usually like the lecture you give them about, you know, being an independent scholar, or it’s usually like the things you say about like, Ed today, I came to work and you know, my son’s you know, he’s practicing basketball, it’s, you know, it’s hard to juggle, who’s in line, and they’re like, Well, I’m doing that too, right? Yes.

Mamta Accapadi
You’re dropping artifacts of humanity. Right. And people need to see those artifacts.

Richard Reddick
Yeah, yeah. And it’s, it really is about sort of expressing one’s humanity. Right? Yes. And, yes, measurability. So I was asked to give a talk at the ash CP conference with David Perez, a second shot that day, and these amazing guy reached out to me and Dave is one of the guys who was young when I was, you know, I was like, Oh, that guy’s going to be great when he started grad school. And he got to grad school, because professorship, and he reaches out and he says, We want you to be the keynote. I’m like, That’s awesome. What we’re going to talk about. And I’d already had this agenda on mentoring. And I, unlike a lot of people do mentoring research had focused on mentors as a population. Right, not necessarily the mentees, I knew the mentees are getting good things out of it. But I want to talk to the mentors, like why do you do the work, especially across racial gender identity lines. And one thing I had kind of started to realize is that people were coming to me and saying things like, we’re doing all this mentoring work, and we’re not getting the response from the mentee group. And I thought to myself, well, you know, who’s talking to the mentees about how to access this knowledge, this experience? Because it’s intimidating, right? When you have somebody who’s achieved so much, and you are a person that reviewers education, and somebody who’s very educated comes to you and says, I’m here to help. You’re not going to run to them say help me, you might, but a lot of people are like, I don’t want to bother that person. I don’t want to make them. Look, I’m not smart. And so I started talking with Loris, Truby was my student time about this idea. And we wrote a white paper on measurability. And basically, the idea is you have coachability, that person able to be coached, mentor abilities, that person is able to accept and understand. And at first, it was like, I’m trying to help them mentors here. But then it became, actually how do we empower mentees to access the hidden curriculum through their mentors? And, you know, we had these steps that we had thought about, and a few years later, maybe a year or two later, I’m either at an info session, and I met the Victoria black, Victoria black quartz at Texas State. She says, I wanna get my doctorate at att, I am fascinated by your mental ability concept. And I’m like, you found that you know, and she and Zach Taylor, when other students really got into this work and started kind of expanding the concept like how do we really help folks who are starting their journeys to understand because a lot of times what happens Mamta is that you have a situation where we’ve kind of decided that mentoring is the panacea, they’ll fix everything, right? Yes. So we give students multiple mentors. Yes. And the student is like, how do I, what do you do with this, these people and I don’t want to bother them, all these different things come up. And so we have to sort of help help shape that experience and also explain things like reciprocity, because the thing I learned, probably most significantly from being a mentor, researcher is that mentors will almost always lean in conspiratorially. At some point you’d have you’d say, if I’m having as much fun and getting as much out of this as my mentee is at, okay, I’m like, that’s kind of the point actually, you know, it should not feel like you’re pouring into somebody should be filling you’re getting poured into at the same time. And we were able to do that work. And I want to shout out Victoria, because she did an amazing TED talk on it. And it’s cited in the book and we’ll take a look at it. But she really breaks down the components and how she uses her work at Texas State University. And so I’m just overjoyed to see something like that, which is an idea you had and sort of having some people help you with the idea. And then seeing somebody really take it to the next level. Yeah. And so, you know, for me, mentor ability is something I leaned on constantly when I think about my own journey, because, you know, people often assume that, oh, you’re of a certain age and certain position, clearly you have accomplished all you need to accomplish. No, I look to people like you, I look to my peers, as mentors, and I need to understand how to access all that, you know, I mean, as you know, I actually access you and your expertise, in our Birdy, confronting racism seminar at Harvard, you speak in that program. And that’s because I want to learn from you and have my students learn from you as well. So that reciprocity idea is really important to the concept of mentor ability, and also to sort of prevent the idea of mentor fatigue, which is when you the solution is mentoring, and you’re like, I have 10 mentors, it’s too much right, versus I have understood the concept of constellation mentoring, and that connects us mark to, for some things enrich for other things. And it’s actually something they enjoy, and they want to do. So I’m actually helping them in some,

Mamta Accapadi
well actually connect so many other concepts in your book, right? So I mean, there’s a, an I don’t know, where you can decide where we go is to choose your own adventure experience here. But, you know, I feel like there’s this notion of mentorship that really connects some of the other concepts. So in some ways, when you talk about cultural taxation in the book, meant mentoring, the act of having to mentor so many populations could be experiences cultural taxation, right? I mean, if there is a undue burden on a certain population in a way that there may not be on other populations, possibly. And then when you talk about the way by which we can shift that I love that you bring up tariffs alone and Marie Garcia’s work on cultural humility, right. I mean, that’s, that’s one of my favorite principles as well, that by using principles of cultural humility, that actually infuses life. Like it’s almost a counterweight to, to cultural taxation in many ways. And it allows us to think about cross identity, mentorship, right? It allows us to open possibilities to hold on to one another, rather than say, Oh, your shared identity. So you’re going to do all the mentorship in this way. It allows us to enter it allows us to think about our privileged identities and say, Okay, how can it be a bridge? So I just, I think the the counter weighting of cultural taxation and cultural humility, and if you meant it that way, that way or not, but but it knowing those terms, you just, it unlocked something different for me.

Richard Reddick
That’s so great to hear. Yeah. I think about that in so many ways, because obviously, I’m a product of incredible cross identity mentoring experiences. I’ve had simply amazing, you know, home office mentors, so Charles Willie, who, you know, was probably my greatest academic mentor I’ve ever had wrote together published together became part is family, you know, those of you that you know, Gregory Vincent, you know, I talked to him, I talked to Greg yesterday, you know, somebody who really has been in sort of a my life so many times to support and advance my career. But the list of people cross identity is much longer. Brenda birds and the sharing justices, Vivian, Louise, and all these other people, Carol havens, these people who have such different identities from mine, but the same idea what I really care about you, and I see something in you worth advancing. And you don’t see it yourself, but I see it. And you don’t believe me when I’m telling you this, but it’s true. Yes. And at some point, you do recognize you’re like, thank you for that. And they say, Well, how can I not right? And I, of course, had experience of that happening myself. I have students tell me one time, I have no idea why you care so much that I do this thing, or get involved in this thing? Because I see it. Yes, I see to you, and I’m happy to help facilitate that blossoming. So yeah, the cultural taxation piece, and I have a piece I wrote couple years ago with a couple of my colleagues called cultural taxation without representation thing because most people who experience cultural taxation will say, it is something that I’m invested in doing, I care about my community. I want to say I’m often here because of the fact that people poured into me, so I’m gonna do the same thing for others. However, it’s the issue of recognition and compensation that matters. And if it’s going to happen if your institution that is 90% was deposed insert just Under knives that nail, and you’re one of the 10% of women on the campus? Well guess what, you’re going to end up seeing a lot of the traffic about women looking for mentorship, right? But at the same time, the question becomes, are you able to integrate that into your work in the things that you do. So you’re actually given the same sort of allowances to make the time forward and also advance your career. So what we end up seeing a lot of times with cultural taxation, when it comes time to promotion, when it comes time for tenure, granting that person doesn’t have enough because they’ve been doing this other invisible, uncompensated work. And, and compensation to me is not just financial, even though finances is very nice. It’s also recognition and saying, this actually matters. And I’ve been around long enough to say, I do think that there’s something to be said in the academy, and certainly in student affairs field, that there is an allowance in the importance of doing that kind of work, right. And there’s ways to accrue recognition and notoriety to do the work. And of course, the cultural humility piece is the fact that I’m able to learn and able to grow. And I don’t have to assume a lot of times people don’t understand that, you know, I’m a white cisgender, male, you know, who’s successful. And there’s a Latina, you know, queer woman in my space that maybe I think is really strong, but I couldn’t possibly have anything to give to her, right? Because culturally, you don’t understand the importance of sharing, or maybe that person that you’re trying to help, is going to help you. Right, you’re going to grow from that experience, you’re going to accrue some understanding experience. And in fact, another concept, of course, is about the idea of the privilege payoff, right? Yep. So if the cultural taxation is a subtraction of time, and lack of recognition, the folks who aren’t doing that work are advantaged in some ways. And that could end up with things where you have this massive sort of difference in the service loads. And I saw this a lot myself, when I would look, in my own experience about my colleagues who were doing amazing, mentoring, supporting, nurturing academic housekeeping work. And we had superstar faculty who were doing all these amazing things, but perhaps we’re not doing such as that. But they’re getting all the rewards. And the people doing the work, we’re getting nothing. That’s why I say it’s a it’s a payoff. It’s a tax shelter, right. So, you know, just first of all, naming the fact that your input and your engagement is needed, right. And my colleague, Mark Smith, who’s the Dean of the Graduate School here at UT Austin, had a great way of talking about older white males as catalysts, right, he’s a, he’s an engineer, this means something to them, right. And the idea that, you know, older white men because of the societal power they wield, if they elect to engage and apply that power in certain ways, they provide opportunities for other folks who have been marginalized, to have the ability to speak out, or to amplify their voices in some ways. And a lot of times, it’s like, I don’t know, I could do that. Yes, you can. And sometimes just being aware of the fact that that exist is important. And part of privilege is the normalization of that process, right? When you make it plain, it’s like, I didn’t realize that was happening. That’s often the response. I get to people when they hear this, like, I didn’t realize it was a thing, but now I’m thinking about it. Now I do see how it’s been happening. And I want to be part of the solution. And a part of solution is using that the privilege payoff in ways that give people access to systems of power, but also to question the system itself, right? That’s another part of it, too. We don’t want to just simply be accommodating a system that’s problematic. We want to actually challenge you as well. But I also think that we have to think about pragmatically if we’re institutions, we have likely bought into some variant of how the system is operating, right? So the idea of bringing it all down and starting again, is probably not going to happen in our context. So we have to think about being different Barson says temperate radicals, how to do that work in a way that allows us to actually prosper, but still have credibility and institutional context and to move all of the folks in the institutional experience, the same time versus, you know, really, really, maybe doing something very specific for one community, that leaving a bunch of folks behind.

Mamta Accapadi
Absolutely. And, you know, I really, it was really healing and restorative to have a phrase for I think, gives meaning to components of my journey, that notion of tempered radical because I think and you remember, kind of in my own evolution from from us as peers when we were younger, to you know, that being the career are and the way that I showed up the way that I showed up in in my early career as a multicultural affairs professional, kind of with a different way of being vocal and a different way of raising voice, and issues. And that person in me around the recognition of ways that things need to take that person is always going to be there. But how do I find, you know, during different iterations of my career, how do I find ways to be present, and still show up in a way that’s thoughtful and caring to be able to create an environment where everyone gets to feel whole, and everyone gets to feel connected? So that phrase really captured a lot for me as well. So I really appreciated reading about that. And so much in your in your book, right? So it’s, it’s just a beaut, I mean, it of course, it is narrative text. And in some ways, there is something so autobiographical and autoethnographic, about how you’ve written this. And yet, there’s the integration of storytelling. Well, I guess that’s the autoethnographic component of it. But there’s the honoring of our academic elders and so many other in our peers. There is also I feel like I got a lot of takeaway lessons about what it really means. But on the one hand, I didn’t find that you’re you asked me to do something that was heavy. And yet, I found the ability to handle heaviness, and to be with the heaviness while reading your book, and so I just How did you write with this tone of I’m calling it balanced? Hope I don’t have another phrase for great plays. I love that. Yeah. But But you were able to address heaviness fearlessly. You didn’t. You know, there is not a hiding behind that. But there’s a seriousness and a balanced hope through it. I just curious how you were able to do that.

Richard Reddick
Well, thank you. First of all, it’s very cool to be to say, and, you know, I have to go back and credit my editor Jane Harman already and Jane and I have been, we became fast friends. When I was doing, I was actually reviewing manuscripts for Harvard press. And we had a meeting in 2019. In Portland, it was ash. And she said to me, whenever you get a copy, what are your proposal? What are you proposing the book for you to write. And I had written, co authored books with Dr. Willie. So I had experience of running books as a colleague or as a part of a research team I’ve done before. And I really was like, Well, I do mentoring stuff, going to dei stuff I do, doing some op eds, like how does that all fit together? And, you know, she said to me, like, you don’t have to think about it right now the second buts planting a seed. And that seed definitely took and I was able to call her and sort of ask ideas, and she’s like, Oh, I don’t know if that’s really something, you know, kind of gently coached me to other things. And finally, I kind of said, you know, there are a lot of great books that really delve into the meat and potatoes. Sarah documents book, you know, there’s so many Carson bird, Julie Parks, so many people have written amazing books. You know, delete yourself, you know, there’s great books been written about sort of how we engage with diversity, equity inclusion. But I want to write a book that’s maybe oriented to a different audience. And honestly, sort of my role model was every day on Facebook. And when I was in college, I read wireless by kissing in the cafeteria. And as a psychologist, she was writing in a very accessible way. Psychologists, and I’m like, I don’t know if I’m able to do that, right? Because that’s what I want to write to an audience. And that’s been my, my goal all throughout my career Mamta, I’ve never, you know, I like the idea of talking to people in my scholarly space. But I want people outside my space to read my work as part of my first gen identities I want my parents to be, yes, I want people outside of the field of education outside of academia to read when I write, and it’s hard, because typically, when we write stuff, it ends up in journals or into, you know, spaces. And so part of me doing public scholarship to op eds, and those kinds of things was to find those voices. And I also love the fact that I did that I would hear from people. And yes, you have trolls, but more often than not, my engagement with the public was usually really positive. Somebody saying, here’s something that I learned from the what you wrote, or here’s something you should be involved in a know about. This is happening as well. And sometimes I think you’re wrong about this. But, you know, I like the fact that you told me how you thought those are all really beneficial things for me. And so I kind of said, I want to write a book like that. And you know, when I used Tatum’s book as sort of have, this is what I’m trying to accomplish. The reviewers got it though, okay, we get that. And there is a need for that there were like there is a need for a book that takes people from a place of, hey, this is something I’m dealing with in my job or something I’m interested in. But you know, the work that we’ve been doing, you’ve done so much. And so sort of such a leader in it can be intimidated, people who are new to it can there’s sometimes very much a feeling of insider outsider, you know, and I wanted to sort of see if I could overcome that in the sense that I am very much embedded in the academic world. But I wanted to step outside that world and I’ve had the most fun, I was at a Montessori school, Montessori falls out to them. And I gave a keynote at their conference. And I’m like, you know, I didn’t write this with Montessori, school leaders in mind. But I think it fits your work very well. Yes, it’s about courageous leadership in space, and dealing with all the challenges with takes the lead with the sort of headwinds that we had. And it was also fun to write. I mean, you know, when you when you write your it’s, it becomes a task, right? I mean, I’m a frustrated rockstars, you know, and I’m a bass guitar. And I’m like, you know, I love you know, playing. At a certain point, you realize when things out there doing his thing, or fake them where they’re doing their thing. That’s their job. It’s priceless, fun for them as you think it is. And writing is, can be the same way. But there were moments where I really felt like this is clicking now. And there’s also moments in the process where I’m like, this is clunky, makes no sense that I’ll be able to actually connect in any way. And I just get used to the rhythms of that. And you know, somebody who writes professionally, that somebody like Marybeth Gasman, who wrote the blurb for my book, and is amazing, and a role model of mine, she writes as a discipline as a practice. That is not how I write, I read the necessity. So I’ll sit there with a blank page or nothing. And all of a sudden, like, I get words on the page, and I’ll do it. But just that process, and also almost personalizing it, like I’m talking to Makkah, I’m talking to Mrs. Burke. I’m talking to people I know in the field, or people who I don’t know. Yeah, how do I want them to feel about this kind of stuff, and also not insult their intelligence, but also make sure I don’t leave them hanging like the Vygotskian proximal zone development? How do I get to that exact spot? So I hope I got there. And I think I left with a breadcrumbs for folks that if I was little bit out of depth, I can get people back when you go if it was a little bit basic. skip that part. Read on, right. I really,

Mamta Accapadi
I know, there’s a point in where you kind of guide the reader or I mean, I felt like it was a conversation when I was reading it where I was like, Oh, wow, like Rich is talking to me here. And I know you so I can hear your voice. Yeah, sir. But there’s a point like early on the book, we’re like, this is how I think you should read this book. And you said, I think he said something like, I guess if you want to read it in one sitting, I couldn’t put it down. I didn’t read it. I actually did read it in one sitting. And I didn’t require a beverage to do that. But what I really appreciate is there, certainly for the things that I was able to follow. Yeah, I have I carry a lot of privilege and access to information, right going through the academic journeys that I have. So I want to own that. And there were certainly a lot of things that I certainly may not have. Concepts that may have been adjacent to what I knew but didn’t, right. And for that there was enough references for me to say, Okay, notice, I’m gonna I’m gonna look more into that concept, I’m going to look more into this concept. And so I really, really value that. And I think it takes me to and I think this, you know, as we kind of close out our conversation, I find that as I have grown more seasoned in my own roles and identities. There was a point in my career, and I still feel it, like it’s never gonna go away. But this idea of having to get it right, have you get it right. And I think that that’s actually also a manifestation of somewhat of a privileged identity like, so I’m afraid to make mistakes, because I don’t want to offend people, right? And I wonder how much of us how many of us don’t step into our courage because to make the mistake would mean to offend, which means to hurt, which means to be held publicly accountable. Right there there is that whole cycle that has an accountability cycle, and we’re human, it hurts. And it’s part of the journey, right? So not attaching a value leading component to it, but it’s there, right? I’ve experienced that, as I’ve been held accountable by students as a senior administrator. Yeah. And they are engaging in their freedom of expression. And I should actually lift that up and cherish that right that that’s separate from what I might be experiencing and really honor that as well. But you use this I love the roller skating metaphor that you use. I’d love to hear you kind of talk about that and share with the audience. I just I just love the way you kind of frame the yeah Is this a present?

Richard Reddick
Well, you know, Catherine, my 13 year old, has, I think, in a very good sport about this. So I didn’t tell her I was going to do this. But when I was trying to think about an analogy about how to engage in this challenging work, you know, and like you said, the fears that we have about, you know, I’m going to go and, you know, engage with a student population or population of folks that I’m not necessarily a part of, that I feel allyship towards, or conspiratorial connections to, but I don’t know how I’m going to come across, I might actually get it wrong, I might say something that’s not really the right way. It’s always kinds of things that really limit our ability to engage authentically. And, you know, the one thing I can tell people is that, you know, I have a lot of shortcomings, but one of them is not authenticity. You know, I am, who I am. And so, you know, when I come to people and say, I’ve honestly tried to help, and maybe I’m not helping the right ways, maybe I need more guidance on how to help better. And I know, it’s, it’s possibly my own growth in that process. But I honestly here to help or policy here to empathize and support, I have found, if that’s the approach I take, I usually get a very good response. And it means I have to also take the responsibility of learning and accepting the fact that I wouldn’t get it right all the time. And as academics, I think we tend to be in spaces where expertise is privileged. And we like people to be experts. We don’t people to struggle with things. But that’s how you learn to struggle. And so I thought about teaching both my kids to skate both Carla and Catherine. But for whatever reason, I think Catherine seemed to be more hesitant. And she was doing the shuffling thing, you know? And I’m like, Well, you know, you got to kind of stride to skate. It’s how it works. And at some point, I said to her, I said, you know, are you afraid of falling? And she’s like, Yeah, falling hurts, like, good point. It does hurt. I said, but what if we found a way to fall safe? Right? What if I taught you how to walk? Because you’re going to fall? Falling is absolutely part of being a skater, right? Professional skaters doing ice skaters? Do they all fall? So if you learn how to fall safely, I’ll bet she’ll be more successful in this game. And of course, like last week, hey, can we go to the go to play when, of course, and they’re out there for hours skating and going backwards. I can’t do that, stuff like that. And so what I loved about that was just the fearlessness. Because she accepted the fact like falling is part of the game and is going to deal with it. And I think a lot of times you dispatch that Mamta. So we often say, Well, this possibility can happen. And look, you and I have been situations that have not been pleasant, right? And we have fallen, maybe unsafely. But we also had a community of people around us to say, We got your back, and we know who you are. So maybe that interaction in that space did not go the way you wanted it to go. But you have credibility in the space, or you’re building credibility, or your honest, authentic, you know, broker and That’ll buy you some space, but you won’t we often think about people being monoliths, like, everybody, this community thinks I’m terrible. Well, maybe some people do. But more often than not, you’re gonna probably find some people who were like, you know, I’m halfway there with you. I think I see you’re trying to do and I think about my emergence as a feminist and how I was fortunate to have women mentors, who were tolerant of my inadequacies, and supported me, and helped me learn things like patriarchy, and things like oppression that I didn’t necessarily understand at the time, but they took time with me. And everybody has that time and also empathizing with people who are in those spaces. Who may be like, You know what, I am going through so much pain right now. I can’t attend to your shortcomings. I just can’t write but understand that’s part of the process. And so almost the personalizing it and saying it’s opportunity for growth. When I go in those spaces, I always say to myself, Okay, chance for me to grow. How can I grow from this, and sometimes, that person seemed to have a really bad day, and really not be happy with me for some reason, that seemed a little extra from what was actually coming from me. But there’s still things for me to learn about how I present things or even how I take feedback when I engage.

Mamta Accapadi
Yeah, well, I think so what’s interesting about what you’re saying, and I love the balance, right? So yeah, we’ve had people with I’m going to say people with different identities, subordinate ideas, where they experienced the cultural taxation and pouring into us, if I can use that for a moment. And we may be lucky to have people that pour into us and we obviously should show up in a space of gratitude and continue to do our own self work in a way that you say, but we’re not entitled we’re not entitled to people pouring into us so if somebody offers us a disparate response, you know that that’s also okay like that is absolutely okay and well within their right in their Her journey. And our job is to be able to say that that was a, I felt skating there. That’s not about that’s not about anything negative about that person. That’s, oh, that’s an invitation. There’s more work that I need to do. And you know, like that, that shouldn’t be a discouraging, I think, sometimes that can feel right, that’s an ouch moment, in a singular way. But that’s also the invitation to say, get back up and try again, right, get back up and try again. And so I really value like, I think it’s being in the messiness, there isn’t like, this is not going to

Richard Reddick
human. Humanity is messy, in the sense that we’re complex, we have lots of things happening, there’s lots of cross cutting, you know, sort of things that are happening. And then you add on the context of world events, right now we’re going through some truly horrifying things are happening in Israel and Gaza. And you know, the temptation to simplify and say, Oh, well, you know, I have empathy and sympathy for people on the side of the issue, and not for those on this side. Is, is, it’s tempting, right? And we’re seeing this happening in our institutions right now. The reality is, is that I just think, like you said, we have to have courage to, to know that if we are authentically existing in this in this world, our authentic concerns will be heard, I send a message to my community saying, you know, I know that so many of you are impacted by this very directly, and my heart pours out to you, I’m so sorry, you’re experiencing these things. And for many of us, we are direct, we’re impacted indirectly, in the sense that we have friends or we have people close to us, or it triggers something in our own experiences that seems very similar. And to just sort of say that, I see you, and I appreciate that. And I’m going to stay in the space with you right. Not checking the boxes, say I sent you a letter good, I’m done. That’s so important. And I had a great conversation with colleagues today about that we talked about like, what’s the right approach? The right approach, to me seems to be authentic and honest, and empathetic and humble. If you’re doing those things, I think it’s how you get to the point. And also know that despite all those things, you may still hit the wrong tone. And being open to that. And knowing that somebody in the space will say, well, it might have been helpful for those people, but not for me, and then hearing what you could do to be better about that. And just understanding that we’re human beings. And, you know, sometimes we say this very glibly, we can make everybody happy. I think of it the other way round. Try to maximize the joy and happiness and restoration you can do for others, right? Knowing that you may not be successful in all those events.

Mamta Accapadi
Well, I asked, what you do is I hear you talk something comes up for me, I think, I find when I’m in a position and particularly in a leadership role, and I I’m not saying that there aren’t rights and wrongs. I guess what I’m saying when I am fixated on my behaviors in terms of, Am I being perceived as right or wrong, that I sent her me yet, I’m not centering the people that I should be caring about. So this isn’t about pursuit of right or wrong, like, I don’t want to get into that conversation necessarily. But if I’m more fixated about how people see me, as opposed to how I am being, like my role and responsibilities to be present, and humble, no matter kind of what the residual impacts or outcomes of that may be, of course, we all have a right to kind of, you know, step in and step out, you know, I think that you you bring up self care quite a lot in the book as well. Self Care, particularly in our marginalized identities is important. But But this idea, I think there’s a full presence, I think that you invite us to be fully present as an alternative to, to going into fix it. No.

Richard Reddick
Yeah. And you know, we are looked to sometimes do those things, right. That’s sometimes expectation it we’re supposed to fix things, right. And that’s when people lose sight of the fact that we are, in fact, human beings to, like, we have to sort of make sense of that, and so far with the responsibility of being a leader, and you do have responsibility to, you know, to give some shape or fashion of what we’re trying to accomplish. But I love what you said about hey, almost decentering ourselves, as you know, what are we being perceived as and more about? How can I be the best help in the situation. And sometimes that means I need to be reflective and say less and listen more. And sometimes it means I need to say something in this moment. That’s true. Whatever the consequences may be, but also I need to say something that will allow me to remain in the space to support people if you say something that’s really needs to be said, and it ends up with you no longer being in that space at the end of the whole process, then, you know, that might not have been the exact thing that is needed at the moment. So you No, I think it’s a very delicate balance. But, you know, it’s so important that we, you know, think about our students holistically. And I, you know, there’s a Peter Gomez was the chaplain at Harvard for many years, you know, students are more than brains on a stick, right? You know, student affairs professionals are more than brains on a stick, right? We all have complete, full lives that need to be understood, appreciated, recognize acknowledged. And I think when you do that, then you’re able to sort of understand the world in a more vivid way. And then you can also lead to other people’s understandings as well. And I just feel, you know, obviously, every day, and I have this concern, if I say something, I’ll be misperceived. I don’t want to be the impacts, I’m concerned about how people feel about what I’d say. But ultimately, to your point, if I let that go and say, I just need to be authentically honest, and tell people that I’m standing alongside them in the struggle, then I think you’re generally going to be somewhere in the universe of getting where you need to be right? And if you’re not, you know, it’s not because you were focused on the wrong things. And let us all have the privilege of failing, you know, forward, right, failing in the sense that we learned something from the things that we’ve done this time, we can apply to the next environment. And it’s just a key point to me to think about how, in this particular point in time how important it is for us to see our friends and people who aren’t our friends. Yeah. in their entirety. Right.

Mamta Accapadi
Absolutely. So, last last question. And it’s gonna be hard. I’m gonna ask you to keep it brief. If you had a wish you had it. Yeah. If you had a wish, for the readers for the people that, that have the opportunity and gift to read your book? What is your hope? For those readers?

Richard Reddick
I actually think that’s not hard for me, because it’s, it’s that little spur you to talk to somebody else about what you read. Right? And it’s already happened, though. And ultimately, that’s the ultimate benefit to an author, like, something you read, I wrote, inspired you to say to somebody, I read this thing, what do you think, oh, that’s crap. Or, oh, it’s really interesting, actually, that too. And again, back to my public scholarship identity. That’s something that I really relish. When somebody said to me, Hey, I read your op ed. And it started a discussion with me and a co worker, we realized we hadn’t talked about this issue for a long period of time. That is like, the best thing you could ever hear. Like, I just wanted to spark a conversation. And we’re in a space where I think there are too many conversations happening with folks who think very similarly. Yes. And that’s great. We need those conversations. But how many times we talk with folks who think differently than us? And you and I are from a generation where we thought it was a good thing? Right? Yeah. It’s good to engage with people who have different ideas, it’s good to engage people who disagree, right? How do we reclaim that space of thoughtful engagement with other ideas, and also the same time they’ll support it in their work? I’m really fixated right now. It’s from Claude Steele. And Claude Steele talks a lot about free speech, juxtaposed with the importance of making sure that people who have been historically marginalized, do not feel exploited, or have their fragility of their experiences dismissed because of free speech. Absolutely delicate. So, you know, if, you know, it’s like a gateway book, I hear people say, Hey, you should read this, right? And maybe get somebody who thinks differently to take a look at it and see if the arguments make sense to them or not. And what’s the critique? What do you think is wrong with the ideas? You know, is there something in there that you’d see a connection to, because I think we all function better when we’re like, you know, I’m not 100% there with you. But I see how you get to this point. And that’s good enough for me. And I honestly think what’s going to make our experiences, so much better going forward is the ability to engage in those difficult discourses that maybe put us in different spaces, but don’t shut off our dial.

Mamta Accapadi
And in an interesting way, that invitation is a form of restorative resistance. Right? So I think it doesn’t feel like it right. But but you’re normalizing. For us to be present, we can be restorative and resistant at the same time. And I really, really value that. Well, Rich, I could talk to you for days, as you already know. Yes. I’m so grateful to you for your time for your spirit, your energy today as a guest on Student Affairs NOW. I also want to take this moment to thank our sponsor Symplicity. Again, we really appreciate your support. Symplicity is the global leader in student services technology platforms with the state of the art technology that empowers institutions to make data driven decisions, specific to their goals, a true partner to the institution Symplicity supports all aspects of student life including but not limited to career services to end development, Student Conduct and well being student success and accessibility services. To learn more, visit simplicity.com or connect with simplicity on Facebook, X and LinkedIn. Much love and such a huge shout out to our colleague Nat Ambrosey Who is the producer for the podcast, who does all the behind the scenes work to make us look good and sound good. If you’re listening today and not already receiving our weekly newsletter, please visit our website at Student Affairs now.com and scroll down to the bottom of the homepage to add your email to our MailChimp list. While you’re there, check out our archives. Again, my friends. This is Mamta Accapadi, much love and gratitude to everyone who’s watching or listening. Please make it a beautiful week that honors your soul spirit and ancestral wisdom. Thank you very much.

When you collapse an accordion item and save, it will automatically display collapsed in front end