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Kelly Dunlop
I think a lot of people have leaned into separation of church and state as a reason to not touch this work at all. And I would really challenge our colleagues to think differently about that. And the majority of students in higher education are at public universities, it’s at least 75% Last I saw who are going to be educated at a public college or university in the US. And so the fact that we’re preparing these students to go into this global society with diverse worldviews, it’s our responsibility I really feel to help students to engage in interfaith conversations and worldview diversity so that the first time that they’re hearing about halal food is not when they’re they’re working at a school or a principal somewhere and a parents coming up and asking for why the cafeteria can’t feed their child right?

Heather Shea
Welcome to Student Affairs NOW the online learning community for Student Affairs educators, I’m your host, Heather Shea. Today on the podcast, we’re talking about the interfaith spiritual, religious and secular campus climate index or inspires index, an assessment tool that colleges and universities can use to measure and evaluate their efforts towards establishing a welcoming climate for students of different worldview identities. I am excited to learn more about the tool, how it’s being used on various campuses, including actually my own here at Michigan State. Before I introduce the panel, here’s a bit about our podcasts and our sponsors. Student Affairs NOW is the premier podcast and learning community for 1000s of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We hope you’ll find these conversations make a contribution to the field and our restorative to the profession. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays, and you can find us at studentaffairsnow.com on YouTube, or anywhere you listen to podcast. This episode is sponsored by Huron, a global professional services firm that collaborates with clients to put possible into practice. And this episode is also sponsored by Symplicity, a true partner Symplicity supports all aspects of student life with technology platforms that empower institutions to make data driven decisions. All right, as I mentioned, I am your host for today’s episode Heather Shea my pronouns are she, her and hers, and I am broadcasting from the ancestral traditional and contemporary lands of the Anishinabeg, three fires confederacy of Ojibwe, Odawa and Potawatomi peoples, otherwise known as East Lansing, Michigan, home of Michigan State University where I work. I’m super excited about our conversation today. Let me bring everybody else in. We’re going to do some brief introductions. But I’m gonna start with Matt Mayhew, Dr. Mayhew is the lead researcher on this topic and lead of the inspires index. I’m very excited for Matt to kind of give us a brief overview of him and his work, but then introduce everyone else. So as you’re kind of talking about if you could tell us a little bit about how you’re entering this conversation today.

Matt Mayhew
Thank you, Heather. It’s a privilege to be talking to you and to have all of these amazing folks on the panel with me today. My pronouns are he and him. I am from The Ohio State University. And I’m happy to be thinking in this space with you all today, I wanted to kind of briefly give you an overview as to why this group in particular can speak to this audience about these very important issues related to religious, secular and spiritual identities on college campuses. I myself have been studying this world, if you will, for about I’m scared to say 19 years I think I’m in and I’ve been doing some work with Alyssa of North Carolina State University, as well as Interfaith Youth Core. It used to be Interfaith Youth Core. Now, it’s interfaith America, led by Eboo Patel, and it was a while back where we decided to convene and gather our thoughts around how can we empirically address what’s going on on college campuses by way of how students experience those goings on, if you will. And we really wanted to pool from a lot of different perspectives and thinking about how do for example, atheists students feel welcome on a college campus? And how might that differ from say how Jewish students feel welcome on a college campus. And so we’ve studied these things from a student perspective, mixed methods, all the nerdy things I love that gets my hair on my arms, very excited. So when we finally did all of these empirical pieces, the Arthur Vining Davis foundations generously decided, you know, what we want to put together an index that can be used, we want to put together something that we feel is not just about gathering data, but it’s about putting the data in the hands of the people who could best serve the communities of students, faculty and staff with whom they work. And so that’s really the impetus for this entire conversation. It’s really trying to think through how this particular tool which we call in the inspires index, has been framed, how it’s been thought about and how it’s actually being used on college campuses. So I’m very excited because the panel includes Dr. Musa Shaheen of UMass Amherst. He is an expert in thinking about student experiences, specifically and how campus college communities can help curate the student experiences of people who identify as Muslim. Ben Selznick, Dr. Selznick is at James Madison University, and has interest in anti semitism and how that’s rolled out on college campuses, as well as a host of other things, but very, very well versed and positioned beautifully to speak to Jewish experiences on college campuses from the empirical side. And then we have two amazing people who actually put the inspires index into use on their respective campuses. We have Ellie Anders Thompson from Dartmouth, she has been one of the biggest champions of the index, you can see that from how well she corresponds with our index, what we call a presence on Twitter. She’s just amazing. And so she’s going to be able to speak to how the index has been used on private campuses, such as Dartmouth. And then we have Kelly Dunlop. And she is the guru ress of all things to consider when we think about these issues relating to religious, spiritual and secular identities on public campuses, and and currently she works at the University of Michigan. So Heather, I am so excited that these this group of amazing folks are together. And I’m looking forward to the conversation we’re about to have.

Heather Shea
Yeah, thank you so much, Matt. When we were prepping for our conversation today, you said a little bit of intro to it. I was like, Oh my gosh, you have to say that on the podcast. This is this is actually perfect way to introduce our panel. So Kelly, I’m going to have you actually give us a little bit more. What do you do with the University of Michigan and how, how are you entering this conversation today?

Kelly Dunlop
Yes, thanks, Heather. And thanks, Matt, for your generous introduction. Yes, Kelly Dunlop, she her pronouns. I work in the University of Michigan and our Student Life offices, specifically the Center for campus involvement. So in the center for campus involvement, we work with all student organizations and large campus programs like our welcome and orientation programs. A came to this work first serving for over a decade as a campus minister, both here at the University of Michigan and another large public. And when I joined the University of Michigan Student Life staff, our DEI Strategic Plan was also rolling out. And I was struck by the fact that religious identity spiritual identity was missing from our DEI plan. So that kind of led me on a listening tour of other student life partners to understand Am I reading this right? You know, why? Why isn’t this president in the plan, and I was hearing from a lot of different student life professionals, it wasn’t a part of their training, they were uncomfortable, they weren’t going to say the wrong thing. And they knew it was an area of growth. So for the last seven or eight years, myself with a few colleagues have been trying to raise awareness about the importance of religious spiritual, secular identity and interfaith Engagement here at the University of Michigan. And as we learned more about the inspires index, it really came at a perfect time for us, I say us, it was really myself and the lead in our Student Life research office. Because as we were trying to build resources, to be able to support this effort, some benchmarking was really helpful. And the index shows not only how we’re doing and areas of growth for us, but also how we do relative to other public institutions and peer institutions. So look forward to talking more about that, but grateful to be part of the conversation.

Heather Shea
Thank you so much, Kelly. I appreciate it. All right, Ben, tell us a little bit about you.

Ben Selznick
Sure. Hi, Ben Selznick. I use he him pronouns. I am an associate professor at James Madison University in Harrisonburg, Virginia. Yeah, so this all started, I was actually a religion major at Dartmouth College where Ellie is now. Yeah. And yeah, so that led me on a whole variety of journeys. But into working with with Dr. Mayhew at the masters level, and again at the PhD level. And as the kind of predecessor to some of this work was getting going. I expressed interest in kind of working on topics related to Jewish students and Jewish students experiences. And, you know, starting conversations about how can this work really inform our understanding of those experiences, especially with perennial currents of anti semitism. As the work evolved, I kind of stuck around and kept going with it, which has been been a great opportunity. We’ve had the chance to really publish a number of studies looking at appreciative attitudes towards Jews. Certainly, recently we’ve had more opportunities to have great conversations with campus partner’s recently worked on a chapter that kind of helped us think about some of these experiences and kind of, you know, what do we need to know now going forward type of way. And I think what what is helpful about my background too, now that I’m in a kind of a strategic leadership program here and interdisciplinary program, is also trying to take some kind of an organizational lens. So thinking about what does this mean from the student development standpoint, the student experience standpoint, but also from the kind of standpoint of leadership and organizational change, right? How can decision makers who have agency and influence over the lives of campus climate and student experiences really be acting and deciding in ways that are informed by conversations such as the one we’re about to have informed by the research, and really informed by creating the best possible experience for all students, inclusive of those who hold all kinds of different worldviews. So that’s, that’s what I’m looking forward to discussing today. And thanks so much for having us here. Yeah.

Heather Shea
Thanks, Ben. Great to meet you. Musbah, but tell us a little bit more about you.

Musbah Shaheen
Hi, everyone, I’m Musbah Shaheen I use he him his pronouns. I am a professor here at UMass Amherst. And I actually, Matt talked about the big empirical project that he launched with Dr. at NC State. The reason I went to grad school was because of that project. That was the reason I return to doctoral studies to say, I love this type of work. And I came to it from the perspective of the identity identity development. So I was more interested in the experiences of students, specifically of Muslim students, and specifically in their approach to other avenues of identity. And I, as I started to explore more started to run into this idea of appreciation of what it means to be appreciative of Muslims, what does Islamophobia look like? How is that different and really got me into to see a whole other area of, of knowledge that is missing, related to how we can enhance interface attitudes, especially beyond this sort of simplistic understanding of, you know, just getting people to get along sort of understanding more profound means of appreciation, what that looked like. And really, my, my goal here is to understand how we can best mobilize a college environment towards towards this end, I tell people, we have students in a time in their lives, where you can impact pretty much every aspect of their person. We have access to them in ways that are not available, and the power of the college campus is real. And that really drives me here. And I’ll stop talking now. But really happy to be here. And thank you for having me.

Heather Shea
Of course. Thank you so much, Ellie, welcome.

Ellie Anders Thompson
Hi, everyone. My name is Ellie Anders Thompson, she her pronouns. I am the multifaith advisor at the William George Tucker Center at Dartmouth College. So up in the upper valley of New Hampshire, and I came to the college just about 16 months ago, I can’t decide whether or not it’s easier to say a year in four months or 16 months, because it’s kind of like a baby that I’m, I don’t know. Um, so I’ve been here for a short amount of time, and I came to expires, I couldn’t have come to the university or the college give me they will be very upset with me if I don’t take college, the College in this perfect moment where I was brand new, and they had just started doing the Inspire survey, and we’re offering it to the Dartmouth population to say, hey, and I was like, literally, I didn’t know anyone on campus, I had just walked in the door. So it was this perfect opportunity for me on my campus. gather a group of people who actually knew the answer to this question and for me to actually just get a really, really incredible opportunity for people to see me and know me and like what I’m trying to do now that I’m here, and what we hope for the college to be able to do in the long term. And for them to have this sense of ownership that they are a part of the students of different worldviews religious minorities, and their sense of belonging and so that’s how like I had this just incredible timing and opportunity to come into the brand new position come into within the first few months and and and do this inspires a survey with in gathering a group of people to do this entire survey. So it’s been a lot of fun. And it was incredibly informative to start my process that way. So that’s a little bit about me and how I got connected to inspires.

Heather Shea
Great. Well, thank you so much, all of you for joining the conversation today. I love the way this this is evolved into both addressing a lot of different identities, but also different types of campuses. Before we get into the practical pieces about how it’s being used, though, I am really curious, Matt, can you give us a bit of a broad overview, and maybe including that, like how campuses who don’t currently have access to this data, how they might engage with it, how those who have had access to it, are using the data? And then how do you envision this kind of like maybe evolving into the future? My My guess is long term research interests of yours.

Matt Mayhew
Thank you Heather. Yes, so I could talk all day about this, but I don’t, I need to really curtail my comments because of the brilliance represented on the call. So really, what the inspires index is, it is an inventory, that is based on years of empirical work designed to really extract what kind of elements on a campus makes that campus welcoming for, say, Muslim students, for Jewish students or atheist students for evangelicals. And what we learned in the aura in the empirical process is that those elements differ. For Jewish students, for example, they feel welcoming, a more welcoming on presence on campus, or a more welcoming campus climate experience, when they know that there are kosher meals provided all dining halls, not just one that they have to run across campus in the cold to get to, they want to be able to go with their friends to whatever the friends choose. And so for that reason, maybe that kind of experience is important for them. For Muslim students, it’s very important. And there are these are just examples, you know, that faculty are attentive to holidays like Ramadan? And what does it mean to assign major tests, major papers, during this month of fasting for this group of students? Right, and whose responsibility is it to make sure that people are aware of that is that the students in the classroom has to go to the faculty member to say, oh, my gosh, this is what I observed. So the fit the onus of of responsibility is on the students, or is it on the structures, the people who represent those structures, like the faculty and staff to be able to know that that’s coming, right. And so when we pull that all together, we were able to come up with an index to satisfy what’s welcoming for each group. And so we send that to different institutions, all institutions are welcome to participate, whether it’s free for students, for institutions to participate, and, and and what we do is some institutions that are huge, actually, it’s I’ve heard, it’s taken about an hour and 40 minutes to corral all of the information that’s represented on the index. And so for those institutions, someone like Kelly, my champion, but she might not know how many people are in the religious studies minor, through literature, arts and science are all SNA. So she might have to contact the folks over there to fill out those questions, or send that group of questions over to those folks to fill out. On smaller campuses, typically, there might be a couple of people who know a lot of those answers who are able to fill things out. And so it might not take as long but at the end of the day, institutions that participate in this index are able to see kind of how they’re doing in relationship to other schools like themselves. And also we provide reports they just came out yesterday for those who participated to say okay, here’s what you can do better based on what schools like you are doing better, right? So it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s kind of a yes. And for all things, we have a public website called The inspires into, inspires index.org You can go to it’s gorgeous. By the way, all credit goes to Dr. Laura and what New York University for pulling that together. It’s beautiful, but you’re able to serve it and kind of see what’s going on. And the motivation behind that is not only to help practitioners and folks who are in college is already put for students to make good choices before they go to college. So if the data are a public and they’re available, and a Jew student comes to the website to say, what what school is really going to be welcoming for me and why they can go in and find that information before they make a decision about going to college, right, because we want students to feel like they’re invited into the campus, they’re welcome on a campus. So the goal is also to reach those students and their caregivers or other decision makers in their lives, to equip them with the most knowledge they can have to go and enter college. So that’s the kind of overarching purpose of the index, if you want to talk about how it’s been used, and then I’ll be quiet because my colleagues are so amazing, especially and kind of the future of it. We’ve recently launched a module to address how institutions have managed, what’s going on on campus since October 7. And because we have an infrastructure in place, it is flexible enough for us to lean into current issues rather quickly. And we’ve vetted those questions with experts around the country. We’ve edited those questions with the AI folks to ensure that what we’re asking is going to make the most sense by way of rolling the data out. So we are in the process of gathering that data right now. And that module is something that we’re hoping that is going to help folks really manage information moving forward. We’ve used I’ve heard the index being used from this is this is really cool stuff. I can go on forever, from development offices, actually, I think who, who there have been, for example, some Jewish donors, very concerned with what was going on on a particular campus by way of anti semitic practices and things like that. And when the the folks on campus, were able to say, no, look at this school, we’ve been involved with this index for the past three years, we were in front of this, we made our data a public, here’s what the index says you can go look us up. So we have been concerned about the vitality and the experiences of Jew, Jewish students on this campus for a very long time. And we need to be now more maybe intentional about some practices that we think are going to make things better since October 7. But we’ve been in front of this. And that has, there’s no silver bullet solutions, per se, but that has satisfied those donors, right. So we’ve heard about it being used from development officers, and to students, we’ve heard from students to say, oh my gosh, this really helped me make a good decision about going to college. I have families, I’ve heard back from rearick random emails from amazing families out in California, who were very concerned about things and they really went to the website. And they found it really, really helpful when they were making college choice decisions. So it’s been used in a variety of different ways. My colleagues and speak more about that, of course, but we just want to change the world, my friends on the phone, no, no, that I say this all the time, one baby step at a time, we want to make sure that research is actually pragmatically useful for the majority of people in the country. So whether that students or non students or educators or faculty, staff, whomever, and this is the index that allows us to do that. So we’re proud of it. And we hope that any institution who would ever want to participate, just contact me or Heather, Heather will get it to me, but it’s still free, because of the generous support from the Arthur Vining Davis foundations. So it’s, it’s still free to take.

Heather Shea
That is awesome. That is fantastic. Yes, I know. My colleagues at MSU are in the process. I think of getting data back out on it. I don’t know. Apparently it arrived yesterday, maybe so. Very exciting. So Ellie, I’m going to turn to you because I am really curious about what the climate is right now on college and university campuses. You know, Matt mentioned October 7, but just in general, related to religious, spiritual and secular identities.

Ellie Anders Thompson
Yeah, thanks for the question, Heather, I would say there’s this the same there. You’re all in the same boat, but in different storms or something like this. But I think the same should actually be we’re all in the same storm. But we all have very different boats. And that might be as close as I can to being to answer your question as simply as possible. It just depends on your boat, maybe and where you are in the storm, because we’re all in this storm. But we all have different. I mean, we have institutions that have been out in this work. We have institutions that were prepared For this, and then we have some institutions that are out there, that the entire student affairs like wouldn’t, wouldn’t come within a 10 foot, you know, radius of this kind of work because they’re terrified, and rightfully so they weren’t equipped, we don’t have a ton of programs and master’s programs that then equip professionals to do work around religious, spiritual and secular and interfaith work, that’s just not a program, that’s a part of the infrastructure that we still need to build. So I think it just kind of depends on where you are in the country where your institution is, a good way to find out whether or not the institution is going to be equipped is not on the index, right? So like, if that’s something that’s a priority to you, as a student or as a professional, and you want to be a part of this field, I would say that and then I’ll say hot off the presses. My friends at Interfaith America, Becca Hartman pickerel. And Rebecca Russo just wrote an incredible article talking about bridge building in higher education, a landscape analysis, and I was like, this is the perfect answer. So the question that I know that Heather wants to ask me, and they talk about in this article that literally was just released in February, this 2024, the challenges originally work, and they talked about the polarization that we’re experiencing. So if you’re a private institution like myself, you’re beholden to donors, like Matt referenced earlier, you’re beholden to the whims of those ideas. We the if you’re at public institutions, maybe you’re beholden to politics, and political, we see all kinds of political, you know, movements in Florida and Texas, and places that are eliminating some of this work. I have personal friends that have lost their jobs that were interfaith leaders that have lost their jobs and public institution. So that’s another challenge to this work that they address in their article. And it’s really nuanced ones I really appreciated that they reference and I want to say this, and this is a quote, they experienced tension between bridge building and justice methodologies and goals. It’s one more time the experienced tension between bridge building and justice methodologies and goals. And I think that’s something that our work we have to reckon with. And that end there, and that that that tension, and then how can we scale up this work? Is the final one, in a work where, quite frankly, it’s relationship building. It’s like the two relationships, that two individuals, we say interfaith is about the relationships with people, individuals, how do we scale that up and scale that up? Well, if you’re doing a dialogue program, and you’re doing it with 120 students, you better have a good, like 50 leaders in that room, right? That have the capacity to do it. So in work that has this, it’s very personal. At times, have we sell that? Well. And so I think those are, I will answer half my answer. And she and take half of other incredible scholars answers. Yeah,

Heather Shea
we should, we should link that in the show notes that that piece, because I think that could be really useful for other folks. Kelly, you’re on a public campus? I’m curious if you can talk a little bit about the climate on your campus, and then maybe, you know, as a result of using the inspires index, what are some specific actions that campuses can take to foster a more inclusive environment?

Kelly Dunlop
Yeah, for sure. But, um, it’s interesting, I think a lot of people have leaned into separation of church and state as a reason to not touch this work at all. And I would really challenge our colleagues to think differently about that. And the majority of students in higher education are at public universities, it’s at least 75% Last I saw who are going to be educated at a public college or university in the US. And so the fact that we’re preparing these students to go into this global society with diverse worldviews, it’s our responsibility I really feel to help students to engage in interfaith conversations and worldview diversity so that the first time that they’re hearing about halal food is not when they’re they’re working at a school or a principal somewhere and a parents coming up and asking for why the cafeteria can’t feed their child right? Like there’s many ways in settings where, where this work is going to come up. And there’s so much we can do at public universities. That does not still takes into account the separation of church and state but which can’t prioritize one religion or non religion over religion. And so besides ultimately funding worship, basically, there’s a lot that that we can do to help engage worldview diversity at public university. So I would encourage people not to utilize that excuse and to really lean in to this effort, as part of our work with inspires some specific things that we would do, or are doing. And some of it’s going to sound really simple. But first, I think we really have to listen to your students, you know that when is the last time that you as a professional or group of professionals have asked your students about their religious experience at your university? And I think we weren’t asking those questions enough. We’re only asking small populations. And so getting a sense from them about what their needs are, and how they’re finding campus climate, that’s one of the things we love about inspires is that it was formulated, really on this input from students across the country of what would make a welcoming climate for them versus, you know, just a couple of scholars deciding ultimately what these end goals should be. And so we know this is informed by a student’s interest. So listen to them, look at your student organizations, where can you ask to be able to join a meeting that they’re having to hear about what their needs are, but we have over 75 religious student, religiously affiliated student organizations at the University of Michigan, so starting to get a sense of, of what they need, do they have a space, do they have access those types of things, would really encourage folks to get to know their faith community leaders, whether they’re a part of your institution or on the periphery? Campus ministers provide tremendous amount of support for our students. And we’ve really looked to build bridges between those folks, I think for a long time, we often only called upon them during times of crisis, or kind of a year end memorial service. And so we need to build relationships throughout and so that we’re not just calling on one another when things are difficult, and be able to not only bring student life to them, but also really get them invite them to be more of a part of student life or your institutional offerings, and where are places that they can speak and showcase their work and build relationships. This is super important. Another thing I’m proud of that we’ve done at the University of Michigan that I think a small step that has big ripple effect is with our religious holidays calendar, we have been sending that out annually for quite some time, at an institutional level, and really encouraging faculty to do what they can to honor student accommodations for religious holidays. But now we’ve also included hyperlinks to info sheets about a number of the religious holidays. So if you’re a faculty member of your staff member, and you don’t know what this holiday is, what’s a proper greeting is this a day of atonement or a day of celebration? That goes a long way. They’re just brief descriptions, but being able to help inform our campus community, we kind of take it from the ground up. And so everybody is a part of the effort of creating a more welcoming campus climate. And lastly, I would just encourage people to think about things that are already part and parcel of your university. So is there a major speaker series or orientation are already training? Like where can you automatically just kind of hitch this work on to a big strategy that’s already happening? So you don’t necessarily have to go and create a whole new body of work, but invite people to say when’s the last time we had somebody speak on worldview diversity as a part of this series or at a staff training? Can we incorporate one of the DEI sessions to also touch on religious diversity? I think just for folks, when it’s not top of mind, they just might not have thought about it before. So part of our work on campus is to advocate to integrate this work more fully into the life of the university.

Heather Shea
Kelly, you said something that really resonated for me, as I think a little bit about the work that student affairs folks do is often around creating this sense of belonging. And if we aren’t connecting with the leaders of our spiritual and faith based organizations, like we might be losing an ability and a connection right to that central place. And certainly, I think, you know, any big public institution has registered student organizations among those are probably going to be religious and spiritual organization. Absolutely. Absolutely. It’s really important. Yeah. Musbah or Ben, what would you add? And then we’ll get into the next part. Question anything about this idea of public, private church and state, thoughts that you might add?

Ben Selznick
I can briefly comment as someone who works at a public institution and thinks about some of this stuff. I very much agree with what Kelly has shared. I think whether, you know, if folks want to say, well, church and state, we just can’t do it. You know, not only does that not cultivate sense of belonging, it can very quickly lead to students, especially students who, whose faith is central to their identity, feeling like they don’t belong. And that’s not at all what public campuses are about. You can’t say, well, church and state here, but we don’t talk about it, because it’s not that important, even though it’s central to your identity, and is really shaping and informing how you’re doing all of the things that the university wants you to be doing going to class involving yourself in extracurriculars making friends, you know, so I would I would just add to that in the public sense that, you know, I do think and especially, you know, in the past decade, certainly, you know, students are coming to college, very vocal about their desire to engage their identity development across a wide number of identities, including religion and spirituality. And so it’s really a fine, you know, it’s really important that spaces are intentionally created, because that matters directly at the student level. And that matters directly at the student level, especially on public campuses, because of the the much wider number of students from much wider variety of backgrounds. I will add, who goes to public schools that are being served in these places and spaces.

Heather Shea
Yeah, thank you. Yeah, just

Ellie Anders Thompson
jump in. Oh, sorry. Sorry. No, no, go ahead.

Musbah Shaheen
got me excited, because this work that we’re doing here was not the is not in a vacuum, we actually have the case studies that we had conducted as part of the five year project, and we published about it specifically the cases that were at public institutions. And you can it’s open access extra. So you can look and see what are the because this is, this is very common, and sort of the cop out with the separation of church and state as a way of saying, Actually, I don’t know how to have this conversation. Slash I don’t have the leadership to support this conversation slash this conversation seems to be isolated. And I don’t know what to do with that. Because these are the three themes is that leadership matters. classroom engagement matters. And we see people underestimate our students capacity to engage in this work, which I think a big issue that we think our students are not religious anymore, because they don’t care. Well, our students are actually going through a lot. And public private doesn’t matter. The students are still engaging in these developmental trajectories in these conversations and their struggles and tensions, that we’re doing them a disservice, regardless of the type of the institution when we forego this part.

Heather Shea
Ellie, what were you gonna say? Yeah,

Ellie Anders Thompson
I’m not along those lines. So shifting gears a little bit, but I just wanted to bring it back to the actual the index, because it talks about when we’re talking about things like accommodations, I think one of the things is, and then this kind of breathing like it always goes back to I don’t feel, I feel really badly for people who really just don’t know what they don’t know, right? You don’t know what you don’t like, if you don’t know how to do this. And if you do it very poorly, it feels like you’ll just make it worse. Right? So one of the things that the index does is that it gives you a list of accommodations, like if we’re talking about the legal like, lowest common denominator standard here, like do you have living accommodations? Do you have food accommodations? Do you have academic accommodations? Like those things that if you just don’t know what you just don’t know, in all fairness to student affairs professionals out there that might be listening to this, this is an incredible tool to say, hey, go look at this, because this will tell you, what are the accommodations that you might need to be thinking about? And then credit like everything Kelly said, engage all those people, engage all those students because they are going to tell you what they need in those accommodations to make it well rounded.

Heather Shea
I love it. So we I think this is the second or third conversation that that I’ve been a part of really kind of building on a theme about the present moment, right? And how we’re engaging in dialogue across difference how we are having conversations about you know, kind of core aspects of our identities bumping up against one another. So for those who are listening, who haven’t checked out the episode that focus on Jews and Muslims limbs are the episode focused on Intergroup Dialogue, this is all part of a larger series. But Musbah, I’m gonna stick with you and ask specifically about, you know, Matt talked a bit about kind of this, this additional module. But talk to me about like this, you know, when campuses are facing and fostering and connecting, you know, students across difference, how does the inspires index offer some insights into how to create environments that will honor those multiple, diverse worldviews?

Musbah Shaheen
That’s a great question and actually builds off right off of Ellie’s comment earlier reasons we’ve been in especially in the beginning, I like to say we were begging people to sign on, not because we wanted the number, because we, it’s an actual thing, it’s assessment or evaluation as intervention is merely looking at a list of things that are good, regardless of whether you have them or not looking at them informs you of what these things are, I think it’s it’s, I think inspiring in its it is it is in its sort of original essence, is really about being proactive, we have shown that we can be responsive with it through and I don’t know what that data are going to tell us what I think is happening is a bit of a situation of chaos, people all over the place. And I think part of that is going to be the learning that we’re getting from there, there are certainly campuses that are doing best practices and are gonna be exemplary. And that module will allow us to get those as well to see who’s doing well. But I think that the the results are going to help us reckon with this sort of ambiguity that the people on our college campuses have. Because if you don’t name a problem, you can fix the problem. And I think that that applies here. At the same time, I am excited to see, really who’s managing the crisis. And he’s in responsible, comprehensive ways, because we know people are doing great work. And all of that is really in the moment. We know people are burnt out because they don’t get recognized for the work that they do inspires can help us do that. We know that that that there is there sort of a fatigue in the field from the the demands of the work and its low compensation. Inspires helps us recognize those little efforts that are not necessarily recognized and gives folks like Ellie, your new at your institution, he gave you something to like this the mission to go and say, Yeah, I am. I’m making my presence known here as a person who’s focused on this area in particular, as opposed to usually it’s an afterthought for a lot of institutions. So this is definitely now and I will say selfishly, we’ve been saying this is now for years now. We have been saying this for Oh, I see. I see I see Ben Ben not agreement Lee. So I’m gonna just like be like you take it over from here, Ben.

Ben Selznick
We have not we know with specific to the issues of anti semitism on campus, you know, you can look and see Matt and I, and Musbah. And I believe someone else was on that, you know, wrote about that issue in the aftermath of Charlottesville. And I think that was published in about 2018. Matt and I wrote the first round on original data in like, 2015 2016, and got reviews on that. So this is a conversation and you know, for, for those for Jewish students and their allies across campus. This has been going on for way longer than any of us have been alive. So just to say, you know, now is the moment then was the moment and before then was the moment and before then also the moment. So I do think that to Musbah’s point, right? You know, it is? It’s tough, right? I mean, it’s like it shouldn’t take a crisis to get people to wake up and care. But now that we’re here, it’s good that people are waking up and caring. I will add that when we were putting together the module, the team of us on the research side, we really paid close attention to some of what Ellie mentioned in terms of kind of the relationship building aspects where at the very least, like where were things happening, and who, amongst whom were things happening and like to lose those points, like a list of places and things, you know, where those like social locations on campus, right. And so that that does get to this kind of point that I think is coming across here, that it is heavily reliant on relationship building, and relationship building. Free crises about known issues, not post crises. You know, one thing I’ve been saying for a while is if your senior leaders called the rabbi on October 8, and we’re like, what were we do, and that was the first time you spoke to the rabbi, you’ve been doing it wrong for and that we hear that story of like, well, now we owe who do we call, you know, and so I think places like Dartmouth and others are testaments to the importance of kind of ongoing strong relationship building. And I think the inspires the the existing data bears that out the predecessor data from ideals and CRCS bears that out. And I think this new module is going to give us further insights into the like, where and how and amongst whom that’s happening.

Heather Shea
Where else would like to add here?

Matt Mayhew
Yeah, I mean, I can just throw something into what this conversation is inspiring me to think about is how relationship begets relationship. Right? And so there’s a relational aspect to the infrastructures we keep reporting on that are very supportive for students. I’m sorry, minoritized, especially religious, spiritual and secular identities when relationships were in place. Before October 7, those relationships were able to help steward messaging through and beyond October 7. And so you ask about how inspires really gets to relationship, it’s, it’s really about the not only the infrastructure, but who is relating in order to create the infrastructure in order to create the policies in order to create the practices. And the who is relating, you know, historically, hasn’t been necessarily embraced, it hasn’t been thought through from that relational aspect. It’s like, okay, for say, an example here is for evangelical students. What what’s important for them on public campuses? Well, because it’s public, we’re going to allow the churches in the local area to kind of take over that message and kind of take over what’s going on there, and not really embrace what’s going on internally to see figure out what specific supports those students need, right? And so that’s something where you see kind of a relationship failure, like why haven’t public campuses embrace these ideas of religious differences and built the relationships with the churches that they might show that they maybe should have, in order to fully support the students who are coming through the doors, right. And so it’s, it really does a lot of this work centers on that idea of relationship. And I’m, I think what we’re gonna see in the new module, is that expressed that the institutions that fared the best by way of responding to the October 7 crisis, were the ones that had those relationships in place, and were able to dialogue because that trust had been built. And we’re able to really make some effective kind of immediate changes to practice or just scale existing practices, right, up to more students. So I do want to really emphasize this idea of relationship as kind of a focal point for institutionalizing change that matters.

Heather Shea
Yeah, yeah, my, my good friend, Cody Nielson talks a lot about the ways in which we interface with our religious organizations, similar to the ways that our campuses interface with the fraternities and sorority chapters, right, that are private organizations, they have, you know, often houses or structures that are, but yet, we haven’t net necessarily created the same type of infrastructure to build those types of relationships with our experience. So that really resonated for me, Matt, when you were talking about that relationship? And what are the, you know, the office infrastructures that need to be put in place, similar to our Fraternity and Sorority Life Office? Maybe? I mean, and I think this kind of brings me to my next question for Ben, which is, you know, to me, this fits really squarely within our our existing diversity, equity and inclusion and belonging initiatives on our campuses. I know, depending upon what state we’re living in those those initiatives may no longer exist. But I do think interfaith initiatives have have have sometimes been set over in this other area, right? And maybe are housed in religious studies or only housed in conversation spaces where we’re talking about the academic calendar, for example, but not as much around like, what is the what is a comprehensive that looks at students multiple minoritized identities sometimes, right? So Ben, can you talk a little bit about how you know these initiatives in might be kind of woven in to existing DEI work and what kinds of impacts that might have for students who have multiple minoritized identities?

Ben Selznick
Sure, I’ll briefly touch on that. But I do want to make sure you know, Kelly and Ellie, who are doing the work has much more to say than I do. But very briefly, one thing that I think you’ll find, if you look at a large private, if you looked at the cross DEI offices and their missions, or planning documents or things like that, you know, religion is often mentioned, spirituality sometimes mentioned, even particular religious groups are given some attention. But, you know, is there the, as Matt was saying, Is there the follow through on that, that there is on other areas of diversity, equity inclusion that are mentioned? And it doesn’t have to be? Or shouldn’t be, like a zero sum game? It’s not if we pay more attention to religion? Well, that means we’re gonna pay less attention to other identities or other ways that people present in the in the college learning environment. No one’s saying, right, what folks are saying now is that, you know, religion, having it appear in name, but not having the institutional supports not having the relationships, not having the dedicated follow through, and to what Ellie said before, not having the knowledge or taking the time to develop that knowledge base, you know, through our work, and I A’s work and other organizations work, you know, to do that, to do those efforts. Well, right, then you’re not fulfilling and this is something I think about a lot like, Are you fulfilling your own stated mission? Forget about what I think the mission should be. I’m just an academic, you know, but if it says in your mission, that religion and spirituality are a valued part of DEI efforts, and students holding religious and spiritual identities are seeking spaces and opportunities to develop along those identities, don’t have a home, don’t have resources, don’t know how to get connected. Are you really doing what you say you’re doing? And if you’re not? Well, that’s a good time to kind of start to say how do we fulfill the entirety of our purported mission versus selectively engaged aspects and again, not in a zero sum way in in a synergistic and an additive in a pluralistic way, for the benefit of students. And then I want to kick it over to the folks doing this every day.

Ellie Anders Thompson
Kelly Kelly has got to talk about this because Kelly, the University of Michigan is doing incredible they’ve, they’ve invested in their di plan, the diversity, equity and inclusion plan, and really incorporating interfaith and religious and spiritual across all of their institutions through that plan. So Kelly, you talked about the incredible work there.

Kelly Dunlop
Oh, thanks, Ellie. Yeah, I mean, as I mentioned, in my intro, it was originally missing from our TI 1.0 plan. So feel proud of the fact that over the last seven or eight years, we’ve been able to raise awareness to the fact where it’s not only in the plan, but it’s been named as a campus wide action item as a part of our DEI plan. So I’m really proud to be a part of an institution that is prioritizing that work. I wanted to highlight to kind of speaking both to what Ben and Matt have said about relationship. And really even whether with a kind of fraternity or sorority life model to that as I think about even faith identity development or just student identity development. I don’t know if others have found the same I’ve often finding that students, it’s mainly upperclassmen. By the time they’re really ready to engage in deep interface work across because the first couple of years are just like figuring themselves out, they might be pushing against the religious experience or non religious experience of their upbringing. So they’re figuring that out first, and then they’re looking to engage more deeply across difference. And so then you might get two years with, with Ted like develop as leaders. So to me, it just underlines the importance as both Ben and Matt were talking about relationships, in addition to the students with the other faith community leaders, with Student Life folks with with others who can be champions to be able to hold and carry through the support for students when they’re going to be turning over. Who’s keeping that history who’s keeping that awareness about policy development, who’s keeping the connections going between this group of students and how they might navigate campus climate. So really important, I think to underline the relationship piece as it relates to identity development for students.

Ellie Anders Thompson
Can I jump in and just for the folks that are out there that are in places where it can’t be a part of your diversity program, for whatever reason, and because that’s just not happening? I mean, it might be because you’re in a particular political state, but you might just be because that office is not an ally for whatever Reason, don’t, don’t underestimate I have seen interfaith work in the 10 plus years that I’ve been doing this work housed in the Center for Social Impact. There was an interfaith wing of the service department like they, I’ve seen it, me, I’ve seen it been run by international students, the international student office, I’ve seen it and more particularly and more popularly, these days run out of wellness. So oh, the wellness will run out of like, like talking specifically about spiritual wellness. So doesn’t have a potential home in diversity, equity inclusion, absolutely. But if it can’t, or it won’t, for whatever reason to the Student Affairs, folks that are listening to us out there, don’t don’t give up on it, because it’s so critical. And it it can there are out there, our allies out there don’t Don’t, don’t be afraid of the unusual partners that are willing to work with you on on the on the work.

Heather Shea
I think, the thing that’s also coming up for me is that if you don’t have somebody who’s like a go to resource on your campus, you know, I think just like serving students of all different identities, it’s on us really to learn and to be equip ourselves with the knowledge and abilities to to engage and to support and to create homes and places of belonging. But I don’t know, I mean, we talked a little bit of a bit about the beginning, like, we don’t necessarily teach about identity development around religious, spiritual and secular identities in grad school, right. So people are like, I don’t know, I don’t know, I don’t want to do harm. And then there’s dynamics, right on our campuses related to power and privilege. And, Matt, I’m going to turn this question to you. Because I am really curious. I mean, I think we say particularly in public schools, and we’re not going to prioritize one religion over another. And yet, our institutional calendars are largely built on Christian calendars. There is, you know, in some, in some people’s mind, Christian supremacy kind of living at our institutions and public institutions, and to some people that can cause some harm, right? I mean, I’m thinking specifically about queer and trans students on campus. So I’m, I’m curious how the inspires index differentiates maybe between some of these dominant, you know, religious identities, as well as students with minoritized religious identities. Like for it’s really.

Matt Mayhew
I know, it’s pretty loaded. I’m like, why don’t be wrapping up here? No. But I do think that what we have all been collectively suggesting is that without naming something, then we reify what’s embedded. And what’s embedded in the US system? Is our remnants. Not even remnants, infrastructures, policies, practices that do reflect white Christian nationalism. So if we take the church and state approach, oh, we don’t want to talk about this, because it’s, it’s it, we’re in this space where that’s not something we welcome. So we’re not going to discuss it. Well guess what we’re doing reifying everything wrong with the institution by way of what embedded hegemonic practices look like, within RSSI context, and how that rolls out as unwelcoming for students of minoritized RSSI identities, okay. So the fact that we’re even doing this is super important. The fact that there are people on campuses now aware that they need to do that. As of October 7, unfortunately, like Ben says, This has always been around. But now there’s a need, and it’s a critical need. And something that has come up in recent conversations from doing the module and also talking to scholars. And this is an international issue. It’s not just us higher education. It’s quite simply this. It’s quite simply this educators, faculty, staff are being asked, What do we do in response to Gaza? We have no idea what to say, We have no idea what to say. If we say this, then that could be misinterpreted as pro or anti this. If we say that the same interpretive lens could be used, depending on who’s hearing you at any given time. So instead of not knowing instead of knowing what to do or saying nothing, well, if we say nothing, then again what reinforcements take place. So what thou again the inspires index is not the goal solution. All of this is though one entry point, at least into the conversation, it does provide some meaningful language perhaps, for folks to be able to use to have an entry point into these really rich and very important conversations. The inspires index, I’ll say a couple of things specific to the RSSI. Identity differences. It was built on those differences. We actually paid attention to what Jewish students were saying were important to feel welcome on campus, right for Jewish students. The questions that typically go off from these surveys, and my colleagues across the country are going to like cringe when they hear me say this. But there’s been a lot of like climate work done. Before what we have done here that basically asked students the following question, think about somebody differently, who identifies differently than you do. Now answer the following questions. We had no idea who students had in mind when they were answering those questions. And that’s from what I’m telling you, that is the basis of a lot of the diversity climate work. So what Musbah and the folks at Interfaith America, Eric, and I really were, were importantly, thinking about by way of designing this whole process was making sure that we said, okay, students, what do you think about Judaism? Specifically? What do you think about Islam specifically? And then asking, specifically Jewish students, what is important for you to feel welcome on this campus as Jewish students. So that is all embedded in the inspires index. And bringing it full circle into relationship? There’s one more thing I wanted to say. And it really does go to the team around the call right now. But especially to Kelly and Ellie, right? Oh, that rhymes. That’s cool. But it really is a relationship between the folks who do the index and the partners that we have around the country who are using the index. And we have been asked so many times, to rank schools, the press want to know this. Who’s the best, who’s number one who’s number two, put a list together, we refuse to do that. We will not do it, because it violates the whole spirit of relationship that we’re trying to build. Now. Are there schools who do some things a bit better, or whatever we think of it like a word cloud. Here’s the word cloud of schools who are doing this pretty well, if you see and they’re and they of course, concede to have their data public and named and all the things you might want to look to this school because they’re doing some things pretty well, but we refuse to go 123 in any category violates the whole spirit of everything. Now the press is not up. The press is not happy with us for that reason. And sometimes they dismiss us summarily from from being a part of the conversation. I know, Ben and moves but we’ve both been, well, all three of us have been dismissed even though we’ve made pitches that we think are important, because Oh, you’re not you’re not the hook isn’t attractive enough. Because you’re not like comparing schools to other schools. But for anybody who wants to come into the project, or anybody who’s a partner with us, we won’t do that. We’ll never do that. So that’s something kind of important to say as well.

Heather Shea
Yeah that’s super important. And I really deeply appreciate that because I do think that that’s a that’s a topic for another whole episode is how college rankings are used to, to paint a very different picture of our institutional quality. So for another for another episode, so it is time to wrap up. As we always end on the podcast. Our podcast is called Student Affairs NOW so we always like to end with what are you thinking about traveling pondering excited about now? And if you would like to share how people can connect with you to follow up whether it’s LinkedIn or other social media or an email, that would be that would be great too. So Ellie, I’m gonna start with you.

Ellie Anders Thompson
All right. Who else was frantically looking to see what their LinkedIn profile

Ellie Anders Thompson
ah, oh my gosh. Um, thank you so much. This is incredible. I will just say, if I can say anything to the entire student affairs, and I know they’re all student affairs now listeners, I would just say I would just say, um, go have a warm beverage of your choice with somebody that you’re curious about today. That’s what I’m excited about. If I can do nothing else today, I could just if I could get everyone like a $10 gift card to the their coffee shop. of choice and just say, go find somebody who you don’t know who you’re curious about, and have a coffee with them or have a tea with them. And just say, I’d like to get to know you. And that’s what I would love to encourage across every part of Student Affairs. And that’s what I’m always excited about. People can get in touch with me on LinkedIn, I now know that I’m forward slash le Anders. So just first. And I am still on the platform formerly known as Twitter. And if whatever your feelings are about that, you can also get in touch with me if you search Ellie, there’s that one as well. Yeah, that’s my that’s my final thought.

Heather Shea
Awesome. Thanks so much, Ellie. Really great to have you here. Musbah tell us your final thoughts.

Musbah Shaheen
I’m really happy that we were able to get together and have this conversation, I’m having a lot of thoughts, I came from a student affairs background, and I know how much work we are asked to do. On top of other work that we are asked to do, and it will be exhausting to try and to be everything to everyone. So I want to say is that this you know, this type of work is hard, but that there is hope. This is the sort of my takeaway is that things can feel really hopeless sometimes, but that there is hope there’s, there’s those of us who are who are who are trying to support this work in whatever ways possible. I am on X, formerly known at Twitter as at Shaheen Musbah, which is my reverse first name, and last name, first name, you can also find my email, which I think is going to be in the bio or my personal website at musbahshaheen.com. So lovely being here.

Heather Shea
I love it. Thank you so much. And Kelly?

Kelly Dunlop
Yeah, I, what am I thinking about just gratitude to be a part of this group, and I’m seeing some follow up stuff come after this call, folks. I’d love to talk to some more. I’m thinking to you know, Matt, you started by talking about the importance of the baby steps. And, and that’s why looking back on this journey, I think that’s so true. You know, so So take that coffee date that Ellie recommends with curiosity, and then take the next one and just relationship by relationship conversation, by conversation, you know, it can feel so big to say, Oh, this whole di plan or an interfaith office or all these like big things, but it’s really just doing the next right thing, one step at a time. So I hope hope people follow Ellie’s advice, or just try that next conversation or small program. And I’m happy to connect and be a listening ear to anyone who might want to throw some ideas around. So you can find me on LinkedIn as well, like Kelly Dunlop, or my email address that’ll be shared in the bio.

Heather Shea
Great. Thanks so much, Kelly for being here. Ben. Yeah,

Ben Selznick
thanks, everyone, for this conversation. Yeah, I also am feeling just tremendous gratitude. It’s been a, it’s been a big, hard, emotional amount of work for a lot of people this academic year, including not only formal religious life, practitioners, and scholars and all of us, but a lot of people who have taken it upon themselves to have conversations that maybe they didn’t feel they were quite ready for, and were there and showed up and were a friend. And I’m just feeling immensely grateful for that, as we kind of, you know, head into our spring break here and toward the end of another another academic year. So I want to just extend gratitude in that in that way in space. Also, very briefly, the new Open Access chapter on Jewish students complexity and cocoon, we were able to make it open access, thanks to JMU. And we’re really excited. So if you are seeking kind of more insights into specifically Jewish student identities and kind of what to do to provide immediate supports, that chapter does a really good job laying that out. And thanks to Sandy Green, for working on that with me. I’m on X Twitter at Ben Selznick, or my JMU faculty page has my email and other links from there. So thanks, again. Thanks,

Heather Shea
Ben. And we’ll make sure to share that link in our show notes. Excellent. Thank you. That’s it. Yeah. Appreciate that.

Heather Shea
Matt, thank you so much for bringing this group together. What are your final thoughts?

Matt Mayhew
Well, like everybody else, very grateful for the opportunity to kind of come together and to think through some of these ideas. It gets me thinking about all the exciting work that potential work that we could do together in the future. And thank you, Heather, and ACPA for hosting this and you know, you all are, are always champions of important cause so I’m very encouraged as champions, I should say. So thank you for that. You know, before we leave, I do have to recognize a tone on the call. And the tone is one where we’re from pretty well resourced institutions. And I just want to make sure to say that the the inspires index. And there are things that we can provide for campuses that may not be as well resourced. One thing is keeping this index for free. But there’s other ways to introduce elements of what we’re talking about on campuses that don’t have the resources maybe to do so. So please do reach out if that is something that you’re interested in, in thinking about or hearing about. I’m balding enough that when you first asked for my contact information, I want to give you my snail mail address. It’s like my first go to but I will. This was not laughing. But I’m actually going to, I’ll just do my email one because that’s what I remember. It’s Mayhew.65@Ohiostate.edu. Again, though, thank you so much, Heather, for pulling this together. It’s been really fun.

Heather Shea
Of course, of course. Well, for all of you, thank you so much for spending the time with me this afternoon. This was a fantastic conversation. really valuable addition to the suite of offerings that we’ve given for folks. And so thank you, I deeply appreciate your time. I also want to take a moment to express my gratitude to our producer Nat Ambrosey. She does so much behind the scenes to make us look and sound good. We are so grateful for all you do Nat. Also, thanks to today’s episode sponsors. Symplicity is the global leader in student services technology platforms with state of the art technology that empowers institutions to make data driven decisions specific to their goals. A true partner to the institution, Symplicity supports all aspects of student life, including but not limited to, Career Services and Development, Student Conduct and wellbeing, students success and accessibility services. And you can learn more by visiting them at symplicity.com or connect with them on Facebook X formerly Twitter and LinkedIn. I never know what to say when I see Twitter in the in this group, so I’ll just give it that. And then our second sponsor today is Huron. Huron is a global professional services firm that collaborates with clients to put possible into practice by creating sound strategies, optimizing operations, accelerating digital transformation and empowering businesses and their people to own their future by embracing diverse perspectives, encouraging new ideas and challenging the status quo Huron create sustainable results for the organizations they serve. So to all of our listeners, if you’re turning tuning in today and haven’t already subscribed to our weekly newsletter, please take a moment to visit our website at studentaffairsnow.com where you can enter your email, and you will stay in the loop with all the latest episodes delivered to your inbox each Wednesday. And while you’re there, you should visit our archives. We are close to 200 episodes, and we’re super excited to share that catalog with you. Once again I’m Heather Shea thanks to everybody who is listening to and watching. Let’s make it a great week.