Brandon Arnold:
Your job search is uniquely yours. Like you’re going to have your own experience, your own successes, your own, like, Hey, I need to talk to somebody about this moment. So know that and know that that is totally okay.

Heather Shea:
Hello, and welcome to Student Affairs Now. I’m your host, Dr. Heather Shea, in today’s episode, I’m excited to bring to you a conversation that I hosted in my class, the professional development seminar, this conversation brought together current master’s students in our student affairs administration program and alumni from the classes of 2019, 2020 and 2021. We were talking about the differences and expectations versus realities of the first job search in student affairs. I am so grateful to all of the students past and present who allowed me to record this episode and release it on the podcast for everybody to be able to learn from. Student Affairs Now, for those of you who have not listened before is the premier podcast and online learning community for thousands of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs, we release new episodes every week on Wednesdays.

Heather Shea:
And you can find out details about this episode or browse our archives at studentaffairsnow.com. Before I turn to the conversation, I want to acknowledge our sponsors. Today’s episode is sponsored by Anthology. Learn more about their innovative data-driven platforms to build and foster your campus student engagement experience learn more by visiting anthology.com/engage. This episode was also sponsored by LeaderShape, go to leadershape.org to learn how they can work with you to create a, just caring and thriving world. As I mentioned, I’m your host, Heather Shea. My pronouns are she her and hers, and I am broadcasting from Oakmiss Michigan, near the campus of Michigan State University, Michigan State University occupies the ancestral traditional and contemporary lands of the three fires Confederacy of Ojibue, Ottawa and Pottawatomie peoples. The university resides on land seated in the 1819 treaty of Saginaw at Michigan State University,

Heather Shea:
I serve full-time in the division of student life and engagement as well as have the opportunity to teach in our student affairs administration master’s program. As I mentioned at the beginning of the broadcast, this is a conversation that occurred in that class. As we were talking about the job search, I hope you all enjoy. I think what I’m going to do is just start with having our panelists introduce themselves. And tell maybe in the beginning, just a little bit about kind of what you’ve been up to since you graduated from the Michigan State University student affairs administration program. And I’m going to go in the list from the most recent grad to down the list. So Brandon, that means you get to start and again, thank you to all of you for agreeing to join the panel today and to be on Student Affairs Now. So we’re very excited. Brandon Arnold, welcome.

Brandon Arnold:
Hey everybody, thanks Heather. It’s really good to see everybody it’s been like too long. I’m Brandon, he, him, his pronouns as Heather shared class of 21. I’m currently the new student programs coordinator in the office of new student and family programs at Temple University in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. I started this role March 1st of this year. So we’re coming up eight months on Monday. So happy to kind of share about moving in the midst of kind of this pandemic times taking a position before I had graduated before degree had been confirmed all of those different types of things. So in my role, I think it’s helpful to know that I work on the development and execution of first year and transfer orientation. I supervise our owl team leaders cause we’re the Temple owls and everything has to be like owl official, see what I did there. And, and I also work on transfer programs as well within my role. So is there anything else you want me to share?

Heather Shea:
That’s great for now. Thank you so much, Brandon. I appreciate you being here. Courtney, welcome. Welcome back.

Courtney Holland:
Hello everyone. Happy. Let us say Thursday. Happy Thursday. My name is Courtney Holland. Winston will probably make an apperance. He was actually just chewing up my UNO cards and I had the like second to get that out of his mouth. She, her pronouns I currently serve as the senior coordinator for academic support initiatives here at the University of Minnesota twin cities and the multicultural center for active excellence. That’s a lot to say, but that’s my job. What I do on the day-to-day is a lot of things. So we have tutoring services. I supervise our 17 plus tutors me and another person I do I developed and helped implement our coaching curriculum that has started rolling out this fall, which is really exciting. We have a student resource center which offers like free printing and stuff. And I oversee that. And then I functionally supervise two program coordinators and our American Indian outreach specialists. So that is some of my job and there are numerous other things that ended up happening that are of my job, but that’s, what’s on paper right now. So good to see you all.

Heather Shea:
I love it. Thanks so much Courtney. And also from the twin cities area, Margaret Smith. Welcome Margaret.

Margaret C. Smith:
Thanks so much, Heather. And hi, everybody and genius to you in our UAB office over there. I’m pretty sure. Cool to see that. Hey, so I remember a lot of you from, from certain previous and stuff, so it’s good to see your face. I use they them pronouns. I am the coordinator for leadership entry transition at Macalester College, which is a small liberal arts college in St. Paul. yeah, I, in my role, I do like, like that whole, like where you work matters thing, I wear a lot of hats. So I do orientation. I do student org support. I do student government advising I’ve developed leadership programs and I do a lot of assessment work, so yeah, lots of stuff. And yeah, I moved to the twin cities sight unseen in the pandemic. Yeah, Courtney and I’m sure can talk a lot about the 2020 of it all. But yeah really glad to be here with you all.

Heather Shea:
This is actually a return appearance for Margaret on Student Affairs Now was on a previous episode, I think also about job searching. So you think all the, all the expertise Eric, UCLA, our west coast, or we have lots of California folks in our cohort this year, I think almost every year. And tell us about what you’ve been up to.

Eric Kang:
Hello everyone. Thank you so much for having me here. My name is Eric Kang. My pronouns are he and his currently I am the resident director here at UCLA. So I’ll receive one of our amazing residence halls. Also, excuse me, if you can hear a jackhammer in the background, my building is currently going undergoing renovations, bad planning on my part. But yes, I oversee a residence hall of about over 1100 students. I supervise a staff of 24 resident assistants work with four resident government council members, as well as to community development interns. So we have a, quite a large staff here. But what’s great about our community is that I oversee two living learning communities. So we support the first to go living, learning community as well as the creative collective. Also serve on an on-call duty rotation. Anyone’s interested in ResLife happy to share all about that information and what that’s like as well as for folks who are interested in coming to the west coast, specifically Southern California, happy to provide insight there.

Eric Kang:
Another role that I held during the pandemic because of the pandemic did affect a lot of residence halls. This past year I also was kind of reassigned and worked in another office for a year during the pandemic. So I served as a coordinator, in the first year experience office in that role, I supported first gen initiatives through with our, through our first to go program. I also specifically worked with our out-of-state students initiatives as well as our diverse student populations on campus. So had my hand in a lot of different areas and excited to be here.

Heather Shea:
Thank you so much for joining us from the west coast. And from right across town, Marissa joining us from Michigan State University. Welcome.

Marissa King:
Yeah. Hello everybody. I think I might be like two to three miles away from most of you right now. I’m very close, but my name is Marissa King. I use she her pronouns. I am the lead academic advisor for advertising and public relations majors in the college of communication, arts and sciences at Michigan State University. So also mouthful, almost all of your titles will be mouthfuls when you get in that first job. Like Brandon, I actually started my position before I graduated from the program. So Karlee, Eric and I graduated pre COVID. So I was focusing my job search at MSU exclusively. I came to grad school partnered, and my wife really liked her job in the area. I knew that I was pretty much going to be staying here as long as she liked what she was doing and not to stress you out.

Marissa King:
But I actually started my job search three years ago. So in October of my second year in the SAA program, I applied for the position I have now. So we can talk more about that if you haven’t done that yet, that’s perfectly fine. As the lead advisor, not only do I advise our undergraduate population, we have about 1600 students in those two majors in the department. I also work closely with the faculty and ad PR as well. So I will do degree conferral roles working with our department chair on course substitution, student complaints, all sorts of different things like that, but I am very happy to be here to talk with you all today.

Heather Shea:
Awesome. Thank you so much, Marissa. Saw last week at the practicum fair and I’m like, you need to be on my panel next week. I also have another person who also spent time working at MSU after, but now is somewhere else. So Karlee welcome. Now at Northern Arizona University tell us what, tell us what you’ve been up to and what you’ve done in your pathway.

Karlee Moxley:
Yes. Hi everybody. It’s so nice to see all the second years and then some familiar faces from graduating cohorts. Yeah, so I am Karlee. I used the she pronoun series and like Brandon and Marissa, I jumped right in to working while I was still finishing my program. I was really supported in applying for a full-time housing position. My assistantship was in housing at MSU. And so then was able to start as a community director in Brody neighborhood in January of last semester. So that was a whirlwind. I moved in during the big snowpocalypse as they say. So it was a lot, but I learned so so much. And like Marissa mentioned, I kind of started my search pretty early. I was like conscious and aware and like navigating what I wanted and where I wanted to be. And then I ended up going into a position that was none of those things.

Karlee Moxley:
So definitely stay flexible, the kind of opportunities that come your way. Don’t put yourself in a box, I guess. So I worked in housing at MSU until just this last June when I took a position as the assistant director of student employment at Northern Arizona university in their career development office. And so our office is a team, there’s my bells. Sorry. I work in an office that has kind of three sub areas. So I work with student employment specifically, which means that I support the student, employees and employers on campus. We do workshops series help with advocacy support policy writing. We work really closely with HR and we do everything with their classification and compensation, so that there’s equity across experiences and opportunities on campus for student employees. And then our office has kind of external relations with folks off campus as well as career programming. So it’s a small team with a big team. I have a coordinator senior and a graduate student directly with student employment, and then we all get to support each other in career development. So I’m so excited to talk with you all today.

Heather Shea:
And Karlee is joining us from nine. What, how many bells did we just hear a

Karlee Moxley:
I was the gosh, it would be the longest.

Heather Shea:
I love it. I love it. Yeah. Well, thank you so much Karlee for joining and, and to all of you, and this is going to be a really great panel. Would the second years like to introduce themselves? Do you want me to go round and have you say your name and your assistantship, maybe a little bit about what type of position you’re thinking about down the road. I’m getting some nods. Okay. We’re going to go with that. I’m just going to call off based on who’s on my screen. So Christine, you are up first.

Christine Choi:
Hello. Sorry. I’m at a coffee shop. It’s really loud. Hi, I’m Christine Choi. My pronouns. Are she her hers? I am currently the admissions associate in academic advisor in the honors college. And I’m really looking, I’m pretty locationally bound. I want to go back to LA pretty much. That’s it? So that’s my biggest struggle. So I’m thinking about doing ResLife also. It’s probably, I think my only thing that would make me go outside of LA is ResLife, but Southern California. That’s my thing. So yeah.

Heather Shea:
Thanks Christine. Abby. You’re next.

Abby:
Okay. Hello. Hi, I’m Abby. I use she, her hers pronouns. My graduate assistantship is with the writing center. I am their coordinator for the Red Cedar writing project and education abroad. And so some of my job interests, I’m not very locationally bound. I’m pretty much locationally bound to where my partner is looking for grad school. So, and they’re looking all over, so I’m looking all over. but the things I’m interested in are co-curricular offices. So like education abroad, but also identity-based offices writing centers, things like that. yeah.

Heather Shea:
Thanks Abby. Nader. Hello

Nader Snare:
Everybody. My name is Nader Snare, like Darth Vader, pronouns, he him his. I am very similar to Abby and locationally bound, potentially the partner, but we’re both looking at, you know, she’s going to grad school, I’m going to be structuring, but recently looking into going to the west coast. So we’ll see. I’m not really sure what positions I want to look for, but I’m kind of opens a lot of things. I like to kind of think like I’m a generalist and I’ve got lots of experiences. So I’m kind of ready for anything really nervous about the job search.

Heather Shea:
Thanks Nader. Patty and friend.

Patty:
Yes. Hi, I’m Patty. I use she her pronouns. This is hopper. He uses he him pronouns. I, right now I’m an assistant community director in west circle. I have absolutely no clue what I want to do after graduation. So that’s me.

Heather Shea:
Kristen.

Kristen:
Hi Kirsten. She heard hers pronouns. I am one of the GA’s for outreach. So MSU tours. I am definitely still figuring out what I want to do. I am particularly interested in orientation and conduct, but I’m not necessarily only going to look in those areas. I am from, so-called love to head back in that area, but I’m planning on searching more like west coast at large. So yeah

Heather Shea:
Emily is next.

Emily Shields:
Hi, my name is Emily Shields. I use she her pronouns. I’m currently an assistant community director in Holden, south neighborhood. I really don’t have a particular functionary I’m interested in. I spent a lot of time in a bunch of different offices, so I’m really open to explore anything. I think I’d like to stay in and around the Midwest, but I prefer smaller institutional types. So I love small liberal arts colleges, small comprehensive universities, things like that.

Heather Shea:
Josh.

Josh:
Hi everybody. My name is Josh. I use he him pronouns. thank you to our panelists for being here today. I currently the assistant community director in Mason hall and north neighborhood. my experiences, I also identify as a generalist and I think I was very self-conscious about that before, but I’m really proud of it now. I am looking for a residence life job. I think it’s got everything that a generalist needs to succeed in this field. and to my twin cities folks coming and looking in the twin cities. So might see me there, hopefully cross my fingers.

Heather Shea:
Awesome. Thanks Josh. Ernesto.

Ernesto Gonzalez:
Hi everyone. My name is Ernesto Gonzalez. I use he him, his pronouns. I’m currently an assistant community director over in case hall. I am also an EAD 315 instructor, so I do that as well. And I don’t know which kind of functional area I would want to work in. I really see myself though working within like first year experience programs. And I am also from California. So hopefully finding a position somewhere alongside the west coast.

Heather Shea:
All right. And everybody just resorted on, where am I at my list? Elizabeth. Hello?

Elizabeth:
Hello. Hi, my name is Elizabeth pronouns she, her, ella. I currently work in the Dean of students. Office is a graduate professional and originally from Southern California I would say I’m a picky generalist and that there are like specific niche things that I’m like, I would love to do like random family first year transition, like all of that stuff, but really anything that’s student facing. And where I get to work with students, like you’ve talked about working with the students for me. So in that sense, a generalist, but I’m happy to have you all here. Thank you.

Heather Shea:
Thanks Elizabeth. Victoria.

Victoria:
Hi everyone, Victoria, or use she, her hers pronouns. And my assistantship is in the office of student success, which is in the college of social science. I worked specifically with the pal program. I’m locationally bound since my partner is in a PhD program at Purdue. So anywhere in Purdue or like the community college in the area. And I think right now I’m open to pretty much anything, but I am interested in working with first gen students and maybe advising.

Heather Shea:
Awesome. Thanks Victoria, Ryan.

Ryan:
Hi everybody. Excuse any wifi difficulties we’re having right now, but my name is Ryan Wadley. I use he him, his pronouns. I am an assistant community director here in Phillips hall. Within north neighborhood. I am specifically looking for residence life positions. Yes. Josh.. And I’m not locationally bound, although I’m primarily looking in urban environment. So really looking to get around a lot of people and I think next up is Darrius. Yes, right Heather.

Heather Shea:
That’s right. Thank you.

Darrius:
Thank you, Ryan. Hello everybody. My name is Darrius. I use he him pronouns. I am an assistant community director in west circle. I also do some work with the gender and sexuality campus center. And for me I’m pretty clear on res life res life jobs to start. And so I love to work in housing for a couple years and then transitioned into student conduct exclusively.

Heather Shea:
All right, next on. The list is Jeannie.

Jeannie:
Hi everyone. My name is Jeannie and my pronouns. Are she her hers, ella. I am one of the graduate assistants for university activities board, which I am in the office. I love this office. I’m really interested. So I really like student life orientation. And, and like, I also really want to work with like more marginalized communities. So I more, I’ve been interested in like UOP trio and he likes support services too. I’m also really like broad what I want to do, like working with students. I am also like locationally bound and want to go back to Southern California cause that’s where my family is. Yeah. So what about me?

Heather Shea:
Courtney’s dog has made an appearance. Oh, so cute. We love the dogs on, on zoom. This is my favorite thing. My cat was trying really hard to get on my lap a minute ago. Well, maybe see thanks, Jeannie, Brandy. Hello.

Brandy:
Hi everyone. I am Brandy Schroeder. I use she, her hers pronouns. I’m currently the graduate assistant for RHA leadership and advising which has changed from last year when everything was different. I worked with it last year, so completely different change of pace. I’m hoping to work in advising in the future, or I’ve also found a lot of passion for working with program coordinating through my practicums. I did a lot of that. I’m also working with it, opened up a whole different realm for me in higher ed. So I might also look for tech jobs in it just because I kind of have some experience with that and it was interesting. But hopefully maybe in the Chicago area, just because there’s a lot of universities there and a lot of opportunity and it’s also pretty close to home since I am from Michigan. So nice to meet everyone.

Heather Shea:
All right. And I think we have one more person. Katie, am I missing anyone else?

Katie:
Yes. Hi, I’m sorry. I have my camera off. I’m having a little bit of internet issues. So this is the best way I can hear everybody. I’m Katie Kosha and I use she, her hers pronouns. I am interested in orientation and first year experiences but open to other things and I’m locationally bound and not I really am looking for a like community to like build my roots or whatever. So I’m looking for in a city or area with a like dense population of colleges so that I can stay in an area and build a community for myself and have options to move around if I need to. So that’s my game plan.

Heather Shea:
Awesome. Thank you all so much. So for those who are watching on Student Affairs, Now, this is the second year cohort in the Michigan state university student affairs administration graduate program connecting with alumni of the program today on a job search panel. So I have several questions that we actually crowdsourced via Mentimeter is my favorite online teaching tool, which now I use much less often to get some ideas about what folks were really interested in and students voted those questions that they particularly wanted to see. So the first one on the list, which I’m going to start with Courtney, and then any of the other panelists can jump in and, and share their perspectives. Is how did you go about searching for open jobs? Did you use inside higher ed look at university websites, et cetera? What was your method?

Courtney Holland:
So yeah, all of those things and none of those things. So yes, I looked inside higher ed looked at the Chronicle. I even did some like indeeding, you know, just to see like what was out there in cyberspace. And then I, what I think was the most useful method that I use is I went back to people who I liked and was like, Hey I need to get a job. You know, what do you know, that’s out there? And that is kind of how I navigated my search. Cause different folks were like, oh, I know this position’s coming up and you’d be great for, or I know this thing’s happening. Check this out. So I definitely tapped into what we call like my student affairs family tree and was like, what’s where it, can we get Courtney a job,

Heather Shea:
Other folks, how did you, what did you do? How did you begin your search

Eric Kang:
In addition? Hi, everyone. In addition to all the other resources that Courtney mentioned, I also went through the placement exchange. So I went through TPE prior to COVID and so it was, everything was held in person, all the interviews and the rounds, I believe TPE has adapted to a, possibly a virtual environment. Again, this year haven’t been caught up with TPE as well. But for folks who are interested I can also speak about the TPE experience. It’s really a wide range gives you access to a lot of different institutions, especially if you’re not location bound. I think you’re really allowed the opportunity to meet with different universities from really across the country in one central location. So I’m sure TPE will be happening again and be available for folks who are really interested in kind of expanding their network really and being open anywhere.

Heather Shea:
So I know TPE has come up a couple of times in other circles. So maybe we expand a little bit more on that now. So what is TPE? What is it like? If it’s in person or virtual, what else would you share about it, Eric?

Eric Kang:
Yes, absolutely. So the placement exchange is usually coincides and happens at a particular venue in years past. So it’s usually in person, a lot of different institutions will prepare for the recruitment process for future openings and come to TPE. Essentially candidates will send in their applications, apply to different postings and have the opportunity to get offered first round interviews and go through a second round interviews or even third round interviews at TPE as well. And so if you can imagine a gigantic job fair is what it’s like. It’s really exciting, very active been very busy as well. In addition to interviews, there’s also a lot of professional development opportunities. There are networking opportunities to meet with other institutions. So really it’s kind of a 360 experience in terms of entire job application cycle after TPE usually that’s when they will offer either on campus interviews after the TPE process.

Eric Kang:
And then from there, you kind of continued through different institutions recruitment processes. But like I mentioned before this TPE usually has representation from really all parts of the us. And so it really allows you to meet with different folks, apply and interview with other institutions, I will say most of the jobs that are offered through TPE are typically residential life. So for folks who are interested in Rez life majority of the positions are that, however, there were other positions, there were a lot of other first year experience positions, other coordinator positions, as well as like orientation as well. So it’s not just a residence life, but you will see a lot of those postings.

Heather Shea:
Thanks, Eric, did anyone else see go to TPE or other other types of placements? I know Oshkosh placement exchange. Sometimes those things are out there. Okay. other folks and their tactics or methods for beginning their job search. Where did you look? What did you do?

Margaret C. Smith:
Just add, yeah, sorry.

Margaret C. Smith:
Real quick. I’ll just say, use the higher jobs a lot. And I wouldn’t recommend setting up the little agent where you can say like these states that was really helpful, then they just email you like every day or every week. That’s really helpful. So that’s just what I would add. That’s how I found stuff that I knew the colleges kind of in my, you know, kind of like tight college type that I was looking for. So within there I was able to be like, oh, there’s some liberal arts colleges. So that’s how I did it.

Marissa King:
I was location bound and I knew I always wanted big 10. I looked exclusively at Michigan State and U of M those were the only two schools I looked at. Those were the only two schools I applied to positions with. So I just use their job postings on their own internal websites. For those of you who maybe aren’t necessarily institution bound, but you know, there’s a handful of different places that you’re looking for. Those of you who are partners in grad programs and stuff, look at their websites directly as well. I’ve noticed that not every institution will post all of their positions on like the crowdsourcing type things. So don’t limit yourself. If you do think that there’s a school here or there, that you’re really interested in use their internal stuff as well.

Heather Shea:
Great advice. Okay. I’m going to go onto question number two. And I’m going to throw this one to Margaret first. So question number two. How did you balance the job search with all of your other commitments classes? GA? I feel like I had a hallway conference conversation at Nashville at ACPA and you’re in the middle of the job search. So talk with us a little bit about how you did that.

Margaret C. Smith:
Yeah. again, my job search was interrupted by COVID, so I will just add that it became more more time and was available in certain ways at a certain point. But I think at a certain point in your second year, you want to start thinking about like, what are my responsibilities and how can I start to maybe shift off of a little bit of maybe like delegate some stuff in my GA a little bit at, or think about while I’m doing a mostly online classes. Like, how does that free up my time and start to prioritize the job search? I mostly started looking in the winter break time, and so I kinda like put aside a few days, just be doing a lot of that research. And then it was often just like over the weekend taking like a couple hours to peruse job postings and kind of narrow it down.

Margaret C. Smith:
So I think you do have to start thinking of it as a bit of a, like another gig. Especially if you’re planning to apply either widely or to be really like on the hunt, if you’re kind of like, there’s a lot of jobs out there, especially now there are. But yeah, if you’re really specific, I think giving yourself that research time and giving yourself like go to a coffee shop for two hours and like get started on one application, I tried to give myself some of those deadlines. So that’s kind of how I did it.

Heather Shea:
Other folks. How did you balance beginning of the job search?

Karlee Moxley:
I think kind of going off of what Margaret was mentioning, I also put it in my account. Like I blocked time for it. So I knew like Tuesday, Thursday, Sunday, I was going to do two hour blocks of either searching or then once you kind of knew loud noises outside that window, but not as pretty as the bells before, but there, like once you be able, once you’ve navigated like your list and make an Excel and like whatever way you function to track those things, cause it’s going to get real jumbled up and the dates are going to get confusing and being able to write down who your points of contact are. And like whatever things are important to you, like how those, the categories in your Excel, like if pay is something that is an important piece for you have that on there. So then you have everything in one little glance. But then that turns into like, okay, now I’m going to do this actual application on this two hour block on Tuesday, or I’m going to write up my cover letter and it’s really easy to let everything bleed into your whole life or take over your whole life. And so for me, I had to set those boundaries of like, okay, I don’t even think about jobs and I don’t even think about my future unless it’s Tuesday, Thursday or Sunday in this studio.

Heather Shea:
I like that compartmentalize.

Karlee Moxley:
Yeah. Cause it’s otherwise I wouldn’t have done anything else.

Heather Shea:
Yeah. And I will say that spreadsheet can come in handy with your references as well. So I was a reference for somebody and they created a job, all the jobs that they were applying to and kind of where they were in the process happened to be color coded by the school’s colors. So that was also an added touch as a, as a person who was a reference. I was like, I like that attention to detail. But it was really helpful to be able to share it as a Google spreadsheet. So it was helpful for me to go in and go like, okay, well, where is this person in this, in this pool? I haven’t heard from that institution. So love, love the spreadsheet idea. So there’s a slight nuance on this question that I’m going to ask next, which has to do with the interview time itself. Right. So interviewing for jobs takes up a lot of time. So not just applying, but how did you manage that interview process? Maybe potentially being away from campus for those who were not doing their searches during COVID how did, how did you do that? And then, you know, specifically we’ll get into a couple of other questions about interviews as well. Eric or Courtney.

Courtney Holland:
I can do this. Well, I can start and then Eric, you know, you can pop on. So yeah, it’s kind of rough because they’ll, the search committee is going to be like, we have these four times available and they’re only going to be during the Workday. And you also only work during the Workday. Correct. And so then you’re like, there’s only so many Workday hours that exists particularly is a reflection on my own thought process that I applied for a lot of jobs, you know, pre pandemic. And when I was getting those first and second round interviews, I was like, why do I have four interviews this week and no time to do anything else? So that is like a thing to just think about, right? It’s like if you apply to a lot of jobs, a lot of jobs might get back to you.

Courtney Holland:
And so then you’ll end up like me with like five interviews in one week. And you’re like, when am I going to read for class? So you know, your Google calendar, I know MSU use out like your outlook calendar. It’s very important also. It’s okay to tell an institution that you’re not available during those times. I have been on several search committees at this point and it’s okay if it’s applicants, like, can we push this to the following week? It’s totally fine. And if they’re a good institution, they’ll do that. If they’re kind of just like, oh, we only care about our timeline, then do you want to work there anyway? So

Eric Kang:
I will echo similar sentiments as Courtney especially for folks who might go through the TPE process because of the sheer quantity of positions available. And you’re just kind of applying to a lot of different institutions. You may hear back from a lot of folks and have a lot of first round of interviews. And looking back, I think that’s something I would have wished I had someone told me that saying like, Eric, you don’t have to accept every single interview that you get, because I think looking at, I remember my schedule so impacted that there were about I don’t know, I think I had like 12 first round interviews and like the entire week and it was a lot. And so I would say, you know, don’t worry if you have to decline an interview, that’s, there’s nothing wrong with that. And you shouldn’t feel guilty.

Eric Kang:
And in addition to, you know, interviews that happened later, so like usually some institutions will offer on-campus interviews. This is pretty common for residential life positions as well. Marissa knows. So for on-campus interviews, if institutions are able to do that during, you know, COVID-19 right now that requires a lot of coordination, as well as communication with your supervisor. And so, so many of you who are working gas and we’ll need to work with your supervisor, kind of asking and figuring out a plan of I’ve was invited to go to this campus is a ride. If I take this time off and kind of redistribute my workload. And so working with your with your fellow ACDs, I was an ACD back in the day and McDonald hall and kind of checking in with them, making sure that they were able to be a resource for my RAs when I was gone.

Eric Kang:
And so a lot of it is really time management and how you manage your schedule as well as being transparent with the people that you work with, letting them know that, oh, I have to go fly to the east coast for this interview and things like that. I’m also canceled an on-campus interview before because the same feelings that kind of Courtney mentioned, it was just a lot traveling is also a lot. But hopefully with the pandemic, I think a lot of folks have transitioned to virtual, which allows for more accessibility, which is great. So you don’t have to go through flights and go through some of the processes of paying for those things as well.

Heather Shea:
I would love to ask a follow-up question about that because I am really interested in how you all navigated that paying for travel, to interview at jobs and whether that’s a reimbursable expense that the campus cover that, did they book the travel? Did you have to front pay for that? And I don’t know, Eric, if you want to talk and then anyone else who can, who can jump in on this question? Definitely jump in.

Eric Kang:
Yeah, absolutely. So so different institutions will have different financial policies as it relates to them. So for all of my on campus interviews the institution was arranging my transportation. So they would, one institution would either provide me options in terms of flying in other institutions did a reimbursement system. So I would pay for my flight in advance and that submit all my paperwork and documentation and be able to reimburse me afterwards. Other institutions sometimes have certain policies like I, one institution wouldn’t reimburse me if I either if I chose to like fly over and interview, but I chose to decline the position if I was offered. And so different institutions have different policies obviously to manage their own budget. So I will say sometimes it can get expensive. And so sometimes I would be mindful of you know, which interviews do you accept on campuses, things like that.

Eric Kang:
For I would say most Rez life, the on campus interview is a really integral part of the recruitment process because you will be living where you work literally. And so it does allow an opportunity to really explore the campus, learn about what their residential community environment is like. So if you are able to do on campus interviews I highly recommend it. However I think most institutions have been really flexible with COVID and the pandemic. And so if they offer a non-campus interview option, I feel like that’s also a great option as well. And that might be more financially accessible as well.

Heather Shea:
Any other comments on interview reimbursement or travel? Okay. I’m going to go to another kind of time management challenge. We had three folks who mentioned that they started new full-time positions while they still in the grad program right before graduation. So Brandon Marissa and Karlee, can you all talk a little bit about how you manage that and you’re, you’re working, full-time, you’re working technically a 40 hour a week job, right. How, how did that work? Brandon, why don’t you go first?

Brandon Arnold:
Yeah. So just for a little bit of context that I think is helpful. I was in NoDa intern at Temple university in summer of 2020. So when I came time to apply for positions, I knew that the new student programs coordinator position had opened up and then I was incredibly interested in it. So I reached out to my current supervisor, did a little, Hey, like let’s catch up all. And also I heard that this position was open and then the timeline moved quite quickly. So that initial conversation happened in November. I applied late November, early December, was applying in interviewing in December and January finishing kind of negotiating the beginning of February, and then moved out of my ACB apartment at the end of February to my parents’ house and started in March. And I’ll be honest, it was challenged.

Brandon Arnold:
It was really challenging to balance, you know, I had, this is going to sound weird and I don’t mean it that way. Like I had a job before I found out whether or not I had passed comps and it was like, all right, what happens if I need to do comp revisions? Or like, there are other things that are going to be domino effects to that. That I think the biggest thing was I was really transparent with Heather and Chris, who was my advisor and my faculty when it became appropriate, that I was like interested in this position. I had an on-campus interview and was, was ready to move forward. Should I be accepted? Should they offer to me? And I choose to accept it, but the biggest pieces were just, I negotiated as part of my to like conversations with my current supervisor that I would need time out of my work day to go to class that I would need to take time off to celebrate graduation. And then any other, like little things that had popped up along the way, and she was incredibly supportive of that. Like, we need you to get this degree so that we can have you, so we’ll do what we need to do to make that happen. But it is something that I recommend, like you have that first kind of initial conversation, like I’m still in school. Do we both, are we both on the same page about what that’s gonna mean? So yeah, that would be my biggest piece of advice.

Heather Shea:
Yeah. I remember that being a stressful time for sure. Branded, but I think the other part is that everything was virtual, right? Like you were working virtual, you’re going to class virtually, so you could literally be located somewhere else and still be here at MSU. Even graduation was virtual, but it was virtual. Okay. Marissa. Tell us.

Marissa King:
Like Brandon. I negotiated a lot. So I submitted my application mid, late October. I phone interviewed in November on campus in December was offered the position late January, early February. And I did some sneaky HR research and figured out how long did I have to stay in my assistantship to not pay tuition back. I figured out what that date was. And I worked with my supervisor to say, can I start March 25th? So I didn’t really negotiate my salary. I negotiated my start date because paying back out of state tuition would have been awful. So that was my big negotiator piece there. And I’m very lucky. My supervisor is actually in the health PhD program. So she was very accommodating with me. You need to get homework done. All of my classes that semester were online asynchronous and this was pre COVID. So I knew I had my offer like the third or fourth week of classes.

Marissa King:
I got two of my classes completely finished before I started my job. So I only had Heather’s class, Heather wasn’t in a position at the time, but Heather’s class pro Divo and one other class to get done the last six weeks of the semester. And my supervisor just gave me five hours of flex time every week and said, you’re done Thursdays at noon. Go do whatever life stuff you have to do. And I know we’ve talked about this in different conversations so far, but how people react to what you’re asking of them. Will tell them about whether you want to work there or not. If people are not willing to work with you, is that a place you want to be for two plus years of your life after the fact? So I knew that this position I ended up accepting and being offered was going to be a very accommodating place.

Marissa King:
A couple of my colleagues were in the PhD program at the time. My supervisor was, they’re all very familiar with the program because it was on campus. I was able to ask Kris Wren, who was my mentor as well, if this was a good fit and she had nothing but good things to say, but figure out what your red flags are, your green flags are. And I know we’re jumping ahead in questions a little bit with that. But try to get a sense of how people respond to you when you ask for accommodations. And if your gut tells you there’s something not right here, you do not want to work for them.

Heather Shea:
Yeah. Good call Karlee. Anything different to add or where should we go? I was just to say that

Karlee Moxley:
I didn’t wait until March to start. I started in January, I applied for the job and interviewed, like I had my on-campus interview. The day we were closing the building for the winter break. And then that next morning I flew home to Arizona for the holidays. So, and to be super transparent, like Heather, you may want to cut this out, but the institution you went to do with me, because I was staying in the same department that my assistantship was in. And so, and at the same institution, and I was only taking two classes. I took a class in the summer because I didn’t do, like, I did one of my practicum at the institution in the summer and took a class. And so I like called everybody and was like, what, what do I owe? What do I do? And nobody really knew how to handle me.

Karlee Moxley:
And so I say that just to say, like, there’s always exceptions to everything basically. But I would, I would just echo too. I started the position, even though housing is really big or rhs is huge, but I was the only one that started when I started. And it was such a blessing and such a curse to be in the same department that I had my assistantship in, because I think there was this assumption that the CD and the CD role was like completely transferable in to each other and something that my supervisor at the time when I started she told me that your first year, you don’t know what you don’t know in any job. You don’t know what you don’t know your second year, you know what you don’t know, and your third year, you know what you know, and it really just like helped frame for me to every position and every environment that I’ve ever been in.

Karlee Moxley:
Like since then, I, it just reminds you that you’re not expected to go into your first job, be it before you graduate or after, and know everything, you can learn anything. And in interviews, like that’s something that is really important to kind of navigate is how much that’s fostered and what the expectations are, because that should be mutual. So I just wanted to say that piece because if I wouldn’t change it and go back and not start early but I would have soaked up everything a little bit more. I think that if you do start early, like really savor graduation, because it’s still such an accomplishment, even though in your head, you’re like, but I’ve been working like this doesn’t even, I haven’t even seen my friends. Like, I don’t even know what’s going on, but it’s such a huge accomplishment. And that’s something that like, I, if I could go back, I would say to that a little bit more, I think.

Jeannie:
Thanks Karlee. Jamie, you have a question. Yeah. I kind of have a follow-up question for all of you. I, I think I remember you all mentioning please, correct me if I’m wrong. But like you all were ACDs too. I don’t know if like that, like made it easier because I, I work in university activities board, and I’m thinking in the way that, like, we’re a team right now of like, just four advisors and we have students. And the other thing that I think about too is like, I have a gosh, why am I blanking on this word? Like I have an apartment outside or the lease. So then, like, those are other things that I’m thinking about in terms of like, do I want to like start work in March? Or is that like not possible for me? I don’t know. Like, I don’t know if like anyone else had any thoughts. It doesn’t have to be the three of you. But those are just like, I think some things that were coming into my head I’m like, is this possible? It’s not possible. Do I want to switch to all asynchronous classes? But then yeah.

Brandon Arnold:
So Jeannie, I can’t speak to the living off-campus part because I was living on campus at the time. But what I can speak to is around like starting a position for truly when other folks may have already been on campus or have like, had that experience. So I would just think about like, there are some cultural things that you might not be aware of if you are like not actually moving to that place right away. Because there may still be something we don’t really know what it’s gonna look like next time. Like, you may be able to say, Hey, I’m going to start virtually. And then I’m going to move to this place after, until your lease is up or whatever different circumstances there are in that may work. But there are, I think it was just something that I would tell other Brandon, like not being on campus is challenging to understand how things work, who people are, all of those things. I don’t know if that helps or makes it any more difficult, but that was something that was kind of in mind for me.

Jeannie:
Margaret, do you have thoughts on this? I, I see you just put it in the chat, you might be able to share.

Margaret C. Smith:
Yeah. My exact situation Jeannie gets a UAB for assistantship person. Off-Campus I just kind of knew. I was like, I don’t want to break my lease because it’s expensive to break your lease and finding someone to sub-let and Lansing in the middle of a pandemic was going to be really challenging. And so I just said for myself, like, that’s a, non-negotiable, I’m not starting a job until June or July, because that is something that I can’t negotiate. And I want to see my assistantship through because it’s important to me. And so that’s, that’s totally valid and you do not have to start job searching or accepting any job earlier than you were ready to, but just know if you start your process earlier, there’s a chance they might want to hire really fast, learn, learning their timeline. And just being honest about like, maybe I don’t start applying till like March or April, like that’s okay. There’s plenty of jobs that come open at different times. So I just want it to say that don’t worry too much, although I understand the worry.

Heather Shea:
Yeah. That’s a great, that’s a great point, Margaret. Oh, Courtney. Yeah.

Courtney Holland:
One thing. Yes. Margaret and you can negotiate anything. Okay. Some institutions are going to be like, we can’t. Well, yes they can. Okay. you, if, if that’s the case, then you need to tell the institution that, right. Like if I take this job and you want me to start this day, I’m going to have to break my lease. And what do you got on relocation? Right? Like what, what do you got, okay, I’m gonna need this. And I say that as someone who did it, right, the, you paid a relocation fee for me. Cause I had to move from Michigan to Minnesota. I didn’t have to break the lease. But that is the case. If they want you as an applicant, they will pay to get you there. And if they, if they play in games and they play a game, then you move on to the next institution because you know, that’s the thing, right? You are empowered in this, in this scenario to ask for what you need. And if you are going to have to pay that amount to take this job, then they need to respect that and honor that and get you what you need or move on to another applicant. Okay. And I say that in that I know we’re in a global pandemic and you know, all these other circumstances, trust me, I was in and I was like, I needed a job, but also I needed you to pay for me to move to an understanding. So,

Heather Shea:
Yeah. And as, as Kirsten and I have mentioned multiple times in this cohort and to start smart program, we talk a lot about all the negotiating tools and ask. You’re never going to get, if you don’t ask. Right. And so if you’re going to make me break my lease, that’s going to cost $1,200. Will you pay me to $1,200 signing bonus or whatever, right? So you pay for that cost and it’s a one-time cost for that employer to write it different than, you know, I need an extra $3,000 a year in my salary. That’s a perpetual cost. One time costs are usually really easy or easier to negotiation, I should say. Margaret, I’m going to go back to you for a second about recommendations. Like who did you get to write recommendations? Was it professors, practicum, supervisors, supervisors and then anyone else want to share kind of their strategy for recommender recommendations.

Margaret C. Smith:
Sure. and I’ll say like most of the jobs won’t require like a recommendation letter, like you had to do for grad school to more like references. So folks that the the offering job could call to, to talk on your behalf. Usually they asked for three sometimes less how I did it was I also came in with some work experience having worked in a nonprofit sector. And so I was sorta thinking like, I want a blend of someone who could speak to my past work, which was still relevant. I wanted someone who could speak to my assistantship because that was where I spent 20 hours a week. And then I wanted to talk to somebody who, who I knew from my practicum to kind of round out that experience. So it was really about like, who can, how can I get like three different perspectives?

Margaret C. Smith:
People who knew me, well, people who I had a relationship that I had cultivated and fostered. And I really do encourage you to do that. Just because you work for someone doesn’t necessarily mean they’re gonna know how to recommend you or want to continue to advocate for you in a strong way. It does take some effort on your front because they have a lot of people, right. Just like if any student came to you and like really tried to make that relationship, you’d, you’d be a little bit, even more likely to be like, well, I’m gonna write you a great letter of recommendation for grad school. I’m gonna be a great reference for you versus like, I’ll talk nicely about this person, but I don’t really know them. So I do encourage you to get in front of those people early because it does take time from them and it is a favor.

Margaret C. Smith:
And so one thing I did was I set up a conversation with each of my people who are gonna be referenced and I just had like a 30 minute, like, how are you? How’s life. Like, I’d love to like ask you to do this. And like, here’s what I want to do. And here’s what I’m thinking. And my timeline, like, do you have any questions? I also tried to put together like little like information emails each time I did get to that stage. Like, here’s the job, here’s my resume. Here’s a couple of things I think would be helpful for you to highlight based on what we did together and what this job requires. Could you speak about this? So again, people are really busy and the more you can help them, the better they’re going to do for you so that’s something I just strongly recommend you do. And the, the last thing I’ll say is thank these people, keep them posted. If you’ve ever done a reference call for somebody, you know how it’s kind of a bummer when you’re like you poured your heart and soul into that for that student. And they never tell you if they get the job or whatever, like don’t be that student. That’s what I would say about that. And there’s no wrong way, but just try to find people who can speak to you and, and be your cheerleader.

Heather Shea:
Anyone else want to talk about recommendation strategies? How did you go about doing that?

Courtney Holland:
I would just say is you think about like the functional areas you want to go in? So I had like five or six people that I had on my reference list and then based on the job, I rotate them in and out like like the current job I’m in is in multicultural student affairs. So I had like all of my multicultural people at the time. Well, I had my current supervisor at the top, but then all my under multi-cultural people under that, and that’s who they called. Right. Cause they’re like, okay, you want to do this work? Like, what do you, what do you actually like know about it? And so that’s just something I would think of, think about when you’re like putting your references together or who you’re putting in the application.

Brandon Arnold:
I want it to go back to something that Margaret shared really quick about that conversation with your references. I would recommend having that conversation before you go to the interview and ask them, like, what are you going to say is areas that I need to work on? Or some of those like harder questions if they are willing to share that information with you, like, because then you can talk about in the interview, like, alright, what are your pros? What are your like strengths and weaknesses? You can talk about your weaknesses. And like, here’s how I plan on working on them in that first position. And then like, it’s not a shock when they hear it from the reference, they’re already aware that you sort of know that it’s something that you want to work on. So if you have that conversation earlier in the process, even before you go in the interview, it’s kind of like helping to prep you for being still honest, but playing the game a little bit too.

Karlee Moxley:
I want to talk to you really fast if that’s okay. Kind of like pulling from different things that people said, if you’re likely going to have a lot of people you could choose from to ask to be your references or your recommendations. So if you don’t have your current supervisor on a job, like that’s not necessarily a red flag because the other people are going to be able to speak really highly of you. And that can be true if you don’t have a really outstanding relationship with your current supervisor too. I know like, and that could be subjective that some places do look at that and they’re like, oh, like, this is what they’re doing. But nobody that they’re talking to is doing that. Like if you’re pulling from someone that you knew before grad school, if you worked professionally or you had a relationship with an academic partner at that point before you came to grad school, that’s going to take away from someone that you met at MSU.

Karlee Moxley:
And so I just wanted to throw that piece out because I think the pressure of like the outstanding relationship with a supervisor can be, it can be an unnecessary stressor in the process and it’s, and they, maybe they say, I don’t have the capacity to do this for you. And that’s an honest thing. That’s not about you, that’s about them and their time. And so just, just knowing that it’s, it doesn’t, as long as you have quality people that can speak holistically about you from different lenses, like Margaret mentioned, and like Courtney was saying, like, that’s what really is going to be valuable.

Heather Shea:
That’s a really great point Karlee. Thank you. So we are getting close to end of time and I want to make sure I’m getting to all of the questions that students have. And so I’m definitely gonna put it out there that if you have a question, raise your hand while we’re waiting for hands to raise non-negotiables like, what were the non-negotiables, what were the things that you’re like, I am absolutely not going to waiver from this. Eric, I think I’m going to put this to you first.

Eric Kang:
Yes. so for me non-negotiables, and this is in the context of residence life was thinking about, you know, what opportunities are available that relate to my own personal interest or passion area. So for example, I’m really fond of living, learning communities. I enjoy doing research, wrote papers on it. And for me that was a non-negotiable. I was looking for a residential programs that specifically had living, learning community programs. So that was something that kind of narrowed my scope, understanding that residence life is a very broad, functional area. Additionally other non-negotiables similar to Marissa’s comment around what, what employers, how employees react around accommodations. So those were things that I brought up as well in my lead negotiation. I had unique circumstances of, I don’t have a driver’s license. I still don’t. And for folks who are unable to get around that was kind of big for me because I was living on campus and knowing that I would have to respond to incidents and some campuses are very large.

Eric Kang:
So for example, MSU the duty range coverage is quite large and you would need a car actually to kind of get to certain incidents in a timely manner. And so one of my on camp, one of my offers, I was able to negotiate that I would be placed in a very specific area for my duty coverage, because it was centrally located in a way that I could walk to and from different duty responses, you’re in negotiation, but they were able to flex that for me, given my circumstances other non-negotiable for some folks is around professional development funds and what opportunities are available for professional staff members? Additionally, a non-negotiable for me was I really wanted to be able to full supervise a full-time staff member. And so that was something that I wanted experience in as well, to make sure, because some positions, some hall director positions don’t require a full-time supervision. You might be the hall director and the only person in your building. So those are some things for me,

Heather Shea:
Other folks non-negotiables.

Marissa King:
So mine’s a little different, cause it’s not something you can negotiate, but I always wanted to make sure I was in an office that was affirming and usually think of student affairs as usually being a affirming space. But I’ve actually had interviews both for full-time positions and practicum positions at MSU, where I would always name, drop my wife and use wife and not partner on purpose to see how folks would respond to that. The job I had, I was wonderful and they’re all very lovely people were very affirming and accepting. But I have interviewed at places that got a little weird about it, and that was a huge red flag for me. Like I don’t need to go back in the closet for you folks just to pay me a salary and health insurance. So that was something that I wanted to do. So if you have anything identity-based that you don’t feel like just screams when you walk in the door, like this is me, drop it in interviews and see how folks respond to that. If it’s important to you to feel like you’re going to fit in somewhere, you want to make sure people are going to respect you for all of who you are.

Courtney Holland:
I would also say last thing money. I was unwilling to make under $45,000 a year. And I was very specific about the number, right. Except in ResLife, because in ResLife they pay your rent and you get food. So I think in some regard, like I was willing to like deal with that, but I, if I saw the salary like higher, I’d be playing games if it was below 40, I wasn’t applying. Okay. That’s just the reality of I have a master’s degree. And so if that is money’s important, right. And so I think that’s the thing people are uncomfortable saying and yeah, just putting that out there. No, you were get paid the amount you need to get paid.

Heather Shea:
Yeah. We had a, we had a panel of folks who’ve been in the profession for a while, a couple of weeks ago and they shared their entry level salaries. Now it was, some of them were like 10 to 15 years ago, but I think that scared all of us a little bit at like what the current job market is, my hope is that the pandemic and actually that kind of what they’re calling the great resignation. Right. Well, actually switch this for the better, right. We’re going to have to pay people to stay in this field and make what they’re make livable wages. Okay. I’m going to go to questions because we need to wrap up here in just a few minutes. Kirsten, what do you, what’s your question? Yeah.

Kristen:
So I recognize that this is probably different for everyone, but one of my fears is either applying to too few schools that I don’t hear back from anyone or having the thing happen to me where I’m overwhelmed with interviews. So I’m just kind of curious if anyone doesn’t mind sharing kind of like how many places you did apply to, or how many interviews you did end up doing. And second round interviews, just like kind of roughly what those numbers are like.

Heather Shea:
That’s a great question.

Karlee Moxley:
I can jump in just like in reference to my most recent search, because I’m in full transparency. I started applying to positions for self-preservation because we were doing furloughs and we didn’t know what was going on. And so it was kind of like, I can’t not have a job. So I was looking at lateral moves and then I probably apply to like eight to 10, I would say that were positions were like coordinator or that kind of like title or advising positions. And similarly to what Margaret mentioned about not telling the salary, that was like still during the periods of time. And we’re still in these periods of time where budget is impacted and it was like an actual offer and they told me the pay and I was like, is that an emotional? And they’re like, no, because their budgets were frozen.

Karlee Moxley:
And I asked in the first interview, how they’re, how they were impacted by COVID emotionally, personally as an institution. And that was never mentioned. So full transparency ask those questions. Like there’s no reason in the world that they can’t tell you what the salary is going to be. And and so I did like eight to 10 and a half, three, like second rounds of interviews. Everything was virtual. And then I said, no, because I couldn’t live. And then really questioned, like, why am I only considering positions that are lateral moves when like I’m undermining myself? And so then I did like a bunch, I did like 25 or more applications. But it was also an out of cycle. So it was like leading into the cycle. So there weren’t that many jobs that I wanted to do because I was kind of being picky about it. So I think it depends too on if you are geographically bound, if you are institutionally specific, if you are functional area specific, that’s, those are good filters to have, but it could realistically and honestly like narrowed down the number of total positions or are for you to apply for just some kind of like a transparent moment. So I would say that’s where those spreadsheets come in because 30 to 40 applications would be a lot. And I did like maybe 25 applications that second window of the second wave of applicants I did.

Heather Shea:
So it sounds like based on what I’m also seeing in the chat is the range is ma is vast, vast, right? So some folks did one to four other folks did 40. And so I think it really is up to you. And I think the timing, I think we’ve heard a lot of folks talk about how that timing is really specific to maybe the type of job also there’s cycles where certain positions are more likely to be hired. July one is a pretty standard start date for a lot of positions because of the fiscal year. So however many you choose to apply to that might be something that you consider. So thank you for all the comments in the chat also. Josh, I’m going to get to your question and then we’re going to do like a sentence of final thoughts from each of our panelists and, and wrap up. Cause I know we’re coming up on the hour.

Josh:
I know that we all want jobs in higher education. Like that’s our goal, that’s our degree, but I was wondering if any of y’all considered what this, what your job looks like outside of higher education, your job search in the field to look anywhere that was outside of higher education. What did that look like? What did that feel like? And if not just maybe some thoughts behind that.

Margaret C. Smith:
I mean, I considered going back to work at my old institution and nonprofit and education sector. And did some actually did some freelance work for them while I was waiting? Because I knew they were a place that I still liked and cared about and I knew they had they were in a good financial position. So yeah, I was very open, especially in a really kind of desperate moment of 20, to be as open as possible. I definitely encouraged colleagues of mine in our cohort to consider that, that program. I think there’s a lot of transferable skills and I definitely think there’s no shame in looking outside of higher ed. A lot of what you can do will be valuable, lots of places.

Heather Shea:
Any other folks consider outside or higher ed adjacent. Really interesting time. Right. I mean, what I would suggest is that we have a panelist of a panel of all the people that are still in higher ed. So we can definitely look a little bit beyond that if that’s something you’re considering, because I know several folks who have left are pursuing careers in adjacent or outside the field some who just went right to the doc program too. Right. So that’s the other, that’s the other thing to consider, like you want to consider being in a grad school longer, right. Really quickly, I would love to hear any final thoughts from folks who are on our panelists today. And I’m going to start with Karlee on this one.

Karlee Moxley:
Sorry, Heather. My bell was Chiming. Do you mind repeating the question,

Heather Shea:
Final thoughts or final maybe thoughts and also advice, final advice?

Karlee Moxley:
Yeah. Well, final thought is just, thank you so much for letting us spend some time with you. This was really fun and kind of invigorating to you, kind of get stuck in your, in your own zone sometimes to being able to see what everyone’s doing and all of your dreams and hopes is exciting. I would say the piece is that there’s no way for this to not be overwhelming, which is not helpful, 0% full, but that’s like, because you all are passionate about it and you are living in this time where more than ever, like a dollar is important, and being able to navigate that, I think lean into your people. If each other, if that’s your people that have literally zero idea of what you’re going to school for, then like lean into those people, because being able to schedule time to apply for jobs and make your Excel and go to school, but also schedule time to like, just sit and be yourself.

Karlee Moxley:
If that’s by yourself, if that’s what fills you up, whatever that means. Because I think if you grind this whole time, and then you go right into more of a grind, then you kind of, it’s going to take longer for you to find yourself again after grad school. And I’m just finding myself after grad school, like, I didn’t know what a hobby was. So being able to be okay with that. And when you get into it and not feel like if you’re overwhelmed, you’re the exception, because it’s, it’s just the way that it goes and you’re doing it right. If you’re feeling that way, because it’s a lot to think through. So anyway, and I’m going to put my email on the chat too, please feel free to, to reach out. I’m so happy to support in any of the processes that you all have, or even just a sounding board or event, session, whatever you need.

Heather Shea:
Thank you so much, Karlee. We really appreciate you being here. I’m going to go to Brandon next final thoughts or advice.

Brandon Arnold:
Your job search is uniquely yours. Like you’re going to have your own experience, your own successes, your own, like, Hey, I need to talk to somebody about this moment. So know that and know that that is totally okay. And I think we’re often kind of taught that there’s a job out there that is going to check every single box that we wanted to check. And it’s just a matter of time until we find it. And I don’t think that that is totally true and I’ve loved my job. Right. And I, and it checked so many of my boxes. But there is going to come a time where you’re gonna need to be like, this is really going to be more important to me. Like the fact that, like, is it salary? Is it supervising? Like what, what is it that is going to matter? And if you want to talk through, or just have a signboard is like, Karlee was mentioning, I’ll drop my email in there. I’m more than willing to listen as well, but you’ll get through it. You have plenty of people in your corner. And you’re going to learn a ton in your first job, like a ton. So,

Heather Shea:
Marissa.

Marissa King:
I don’t know if anyone has used this phrase with you all yet, but I feel like my cohort, the motto was trust the process. Like everyone, all of our instructors Emerald all of our assistants, supervisors, everyone was just like, trust the process. And that is real, but it also does not feel real at all when you’re in the thick of things. And it’s really I am very much like a 5, 10, 20 year plan kind of person. And when I was going through my second year, not even knowing like what happens if I don’t get a job in this area and like, we have to move, what does that mean? My wife’s aunt has to job search and she shouldn’t have to do that. It was just a lot. So do trust the process. I understand if you want to slap me for saying that because it’s not comforting and I get it.

Marissa King:
But don’t forget that not only are you interviewing for positions, but you are also interviewing those offices too. So you need to do the best you can to make sure you’re setting yourself up for a good fit. And there’s only so much that you can really do with maybe a 30 minute phone interview and maybe a four hour on campus. If you’re lucky, housing interviews are way longer. But for non res-life folks, two to four hours on campus is pretty normal. So try to get as much of a gut feeling about that when you’re going through that process trust your gut because you’re not going to be wrong. If you don’t have a good sense of, this is a good place for you. Even if they’re going to pay you 60 K right out, maybe the 60 K worth it to you, maybe ending up in a place where you’re going to be happy and feel like you’re loved and supported is better as well.

Heather Shea:
Well said. Thank you, Marissa. Courtney.

Courtney Holland:
Yeah. Just, it’s just so good to see you guys SPD like years ago. Oh my gosh. Okay. So one, a couple of pieces of advice. One is that you don’t don’t limit yourself to quote unquote entry-level roles, right? My job, not an entry level role. I supervise full-time staff members. And I remember when I applied for this job, I was like, am I qualified for this? And I got the job, right? And so one thing in your search and, you know, higher ed is very positional. And so you might be like, ah, I don’t know if I should do this. You should do it. And the worst thing they can say is no right. Worst thing is you don’t get the job.

Courtney Holland:
So that’s a key piece of advice to think about too, is just, you know, do in the job search, they’re gonna be like, I’m definitely like a ruminator of like, after an interview, I just think about everything I said and did. And I’m like, oh, well, maybe that was really awkward in that. And in real, in reality, I went back to my supervisor and I was like, did you think this part was really awkward? And they were like, I don’t even remember that. I like have ruminated on for months. And so when I say like, it’s not that big of a deal, it’s a big deal, but it’s not that big of a deal. And in the grand scheme of your life in journey and higher education that interview this job, this job search is really, it’s just a stepping stone. Okay. And so remember when in March, when you’re at TPE and it feels like a lot, like this is just like such a small moment and what is like the longevity of your career in or outside of higher ed. Okay. And you’ve got so many people rooting for you. So it’s really going to be fine. Shout out to my people who ruminate and have anxiety. It’s great.

Heather Shea:
Yep. Margaret, I know you need to run to a meeting final thoughts from you

Margaret C. Smith:
Real quick. Thank you so much again. Great to see everybody let’s talk some more offline. My, I would echo everything that’s been said, and I would just say support each other. You’re all going through this. It’s a tough thing. Try, try not to get too competitive with each other. Try to be so happy about each other’s success. Maybe even have a conversation as a team, if you haven’t about like, if someone gets a job or someone like, whoa, like what’s a good way to share that. So it doesn’t make anyone else feel bad about their place in the process. But I think generally you’re all looking at lots of different things and you’ll be colleagues moving forward. So try not to like create negativity out of something that is already stressful, but find ways to support each other. That’s such a great element of the cohort model. So that’s what I would say same for like your colleagues in the future. So, so good to see you. I have to run, but take good care everybody and awesome. Good luck.

Heather Shea:
Margaret. Thank you. Thank you. And finally, Eric final thoughts, advice.

Eric Kang:
I also have to run through a one-on-one with an RA, so I’m really quick. I will say retweet everything everyone has said so far. Some things that I will mention is compensation is not always just salary. And so when you’re looking at job offers and looking at job postings, do some research around the benefits that they offer, depending on different states, cities, things like that, they offer different compensation, you know, things in benefits. So looking at all the insurance plans, health, dental, all those things, especially if you have unique needs related to yourself addition being okay with rejection rejection is a part of life and not just the job search. And so finding ways to be resilient in that aspect, whether it’s like standing in front of a mirror and saying you did not get the job offer and just kind of going through those practices of those emotions.

Eric Kang:
And also being open to getting feedback. So something that I’ve also done is reaching out to institutions, especially if you’ve made it really far to like the final step of the process that didn’t quite make it reach out to the reach out to the, the, you know, the search committee or someone that you interview with. You’re usually more than happy to kind of meet with you and talk about, Hey, what are some things that you, that you can work on to improve on? And I found that those types of conversations can be really helpful moving forward in your future process. Yes. So good to see everyone. I dropped my email feel free to connect. If you’d like to talk about anything that I mentioned before.

Heather Shea:
All right. Let’s give a shout out. Thank you to all of the folks who are on our panel today. Really, really appreciate it. Thank you so much super fun to be able to reconnect with you all and hear a little bit about your journey since leaving MSU. And I love that it was a great opportunity for us to also kind of share some intergenerational knowledge, right? So one of the best things I think about having this cohort and also then having alumni is you have this conversation, you know, across multiple years. So I really appreciated that about my graduate program, and I hope that this is something that you all can kind of continue to stay in touch with. Cause you know, these folks keep coming back around. Thank you to the panelists. I really appreciate your time and we will be following up.

Heather Shea:
So thanks everybody. Thank you. Brandon Courtney, Margaret Marissa, Eric and Karlee for being my guest today. Thanks to, to Nat Ambrosy who does all of the behind the scenes work to get these episodes prepared, transcribed, and aired. Thanks also to our sponsors, Anthology and LeaderShape a little bit more about each of them. This episode is sponsored by Anthology, transform your student experience and advance. Co-Curricular learning with Anthology Engage. With this technology platform. You are able to easily manage student organizations, efficiently plan events, and truly understand student involvement to continuously improve your engagement efforts at your institution. Learn more by visiting anthology.com/engage. LeaderShape partners with colleges and universities to create transformational leadership experiences, both virtual and in person for students and professionals with a focus on creating a more just caring and thriving world. LeaderShape offers, engaging learning experiences on courageous dialogue, integrity, equity, resilience, and community building to find out more, please visit www.leadershape.org/virtual programs or connect with them on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn, to all of our audience and listeners. Thank you for joining us today on Student Affairs Now, if you are listening and not already receiving our weekly newsletter, please visit our website@studentaffairsnow.com and scroll to the bottom of the homepage to add your email to our MailChimp list while you’re there, check out our growing archives. Again, my name is Heather Shea. Thanks for spending time with us listening, watching, and engaging. I hope you enjoyed this episode wherever you are, go out and make it a good day.

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