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Annalyn Cruz
And, you know, I have to say that, and I mentioned this earlier, before we recorded but my nervous system feels at ease here, in a very large city. Like, everyone’s kind of in flow, it’s really, really interesting to observe what what I’m noticing just around and so I guess my, my, my pondering for myself, for all of us, for those listening is what? What does wellness and balance and integration and looking at our holistic lives? How can we make that meaningful for each and every single one of us? What does that look like? You know, and how do we step outside of our normal comfort zone, in order to grow as human beings and as global citizens of this world and of this universe?

Glenn DeGuzman
Hello and welcome to Student Affairs NOW I am your host, Dr. Glenn DeGuzman. Today’s discussion actually emerged while we were preparing for another podcast topic that we will also be recording. This topic though we felt was also worth sharing about. So we just decided to record another podcast on their experiences with work modalities, and the type of work modalities and issues that resonate with them as student affairs and higher education professionals. This group brings unique experiences, ranging from Semester at Sea having to find US work visa remote work locations abroad, I felt it would just be incredible to record this. What will be organic conversation as they explore their experiences and the opportunities they’ve had, and are starting to discover is now possible in their work. So to me what an interesting topic emerges organically one of the cool parts of my podcasts role duties, is if I get curious, I get to ask more questions. I’m lucky that this panel has agreed to record this, and I believe it will spark good conversation with others. So let’s get started. Student Affairs NOW is the premier podcast and online learning community for 1000s of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We release new episodes every Wednesday. find details about this episode, or browse our archives at studentaffairsnow.com. This episode is also sponsored by Routledge, Taylor and Francis viewed their complete catalogue of education titles at routledge.com forward slash education. This episode is also sponsored by Huron a global professional services firm that collaborates with clients to put possible into practice. As I mentioned, I’m your host Glenn DeGuzman. My pronouns are him and his and I’m the Associate Dean of Students and director Residential Life at UC Berkeley, and I’m recording today from Livermore, California, on the unseeded Land of the Aloni people. So let’s get started.

Nick Fahnders
Yes, hello. So whatever day you’re watching this on YouTube and are listening to this on a podcast, my name is Nick Fahnders he him pronouns. I’m joining you all from the Chicagoland area which is on the unseeded lands of the tribe or three fires, along with several other indigenous cultures. By day I work at the University of Chicago is the director of professional and career development for the Harris School of Public Policy by nights. I am a doctoral candidate in Colorado State University in higher education and leadership specialization in that program. That’s me, I’ll pass the talking stick to Kamal, sounds good.

Kamal Singh
Sounds good. Hi, guys. My name is Kamal Singh. I use she her pronouns. I recently just graduated from with my master’s from Northern Illinois University. With my master’s in higher education and student affairs. I’m sorry, my voice is raspy. I had a concert last night. It was amazing. I live that was my graduation gift to myself and I live my best life. So I’m coming back from that. But yeah, working. I currently am still working in as a graduate assistant for desk operations and development for a Residential Life at NIU and yeah, I’m happy to be here and I’m really grateful for this opportunity.

Glenn DeGuzman
Phenomenal. Gudrun,

Gudrun Nyunt
I’ll jump in. Hi, everyone. My name is Gudrun Nyunt. I use she her pronouns. I’m an assistant professor of higher education at Northern Illinois University. So I had the honor of teaching Kamal and her capstone course. The finance class of them all right. Right. And yeah, Northern Illinois occupies the homeland of the nation, Abu people’s also known as the council after three fires, but today, I’m actually joining you from Bregenz, Austria, where I’m visiting my family with my kids.

Glenn DeGuzman
Oh, from Austria to Annalyn. Where are you located right now?

Annalyn Cruz
Hi, everybody. My name is Daniel and Cruz. I use she her pronouns. I’m in Valencia, Spain. That’s where I currently am. I’ve been here for this. This is what happens when you travel abroad. I’m like, How many days have I been here? What day of the week is it? Um, I think I’ve been here for about a little over a week and a half, and I am not ready to leave. That’s what I was telling folks on the call that I am really seeing the beauty and the experience of living abroad and not just like hopping from place to place like I specifically wanted to just stay in Valencia and go deeper with this particular city and meet people around here. And I just said I was like the intention and commitment that I made today was I’m coming back here I’m going to learn Spanish I want to I want to have a longer experience of this and it’s just got me to totally rethink what my future could possibly look like and be.

Glenn DeGuzman
Annalyn let me stay with you for a second because I know that your journey in student affairs or higher education it’s it’s a been a twisty, windy road for you. And there was a period of time where you left the traditional roles, working in higher ed and then took a role where you were traveling. If you can share a little bit about more like what did you learn about traveling and working abroad and seeing its intersection with When folks maybe in our field of student affairs, we might want to do something similar. Yeah,

Annalyn Cruz
well, I guess I forgot to mention, I was so excited about the travel, I didn’t mention what I currently do. So I do have my own business. It’s called grounded in wisdom. It’s a coaching, speaking and facilitation business that I focus on. And I also have a full time role with the University of California, San Francisco. So I have made sort of an interesting, I don’t know, if it’s a complete Boomerang, it feels different because it is on the healthcare side of things, not just your traditional, higher ed university. But goudrand, I did Semester at Sea, we were both resident directors 12 years ago, which I cannot believe. And I think that was one of my first sort of opportunities to start seeing the world truly, and living in a in a global context. And semester is different, right? It’s, you’re not in one particular place for a long amount of time. But it really got me to start thinking more deeply, and just accessing parts of the world that I didn’t know truly like existed. And when I think about, you know, having done Semester at Sea, and then leaving, leaving the traditional higher ed path to focus more on learning and development and leadership development for at the time, folks in student affairs over at UC Berkeley, and then moving on and doing the corporate thing for a few years. I think what I’ve been able to travel in that space, too. It’s just it’s such a privilege, and it’s such an opportunity that I think everyone should go and do if they have the ability to do so. You know, I think it it just makes me feel like not only am I a global citizen, but I’m also like this little speck of stardust in the universe. If I could get you know, really Whoa, about it, it truly makes you feel held by something bigger. And I am recognizing while I’m here in Spain that I don’t get to feel that a whole lot when I’m back home in the Bay Area of

Glenn DeGuzman
the drone, can you can you add to the story because you did this semester see, but you also have a unique origin story in the sense that you came you’re, you’re you were an international student who came to United States on a visa, if you can show a bit of backstory and how that intersects with this, this conversation about working or living abroad. And how’s that?

Gudrun Nyunt
Yeah, definitely. So I think it was funny because as you were talking in when I was thinking about how for you somehow like student affairs and doing Semester at Sea introduced you to the world and for me, it was more traveling introduced me to Student Affairs, right. So I grew up in Austria, I didn’t know what student affairs was, our higher ed system was very different. And so but I didn’t exchange you actually in high school. So my junior year in high school, I lived in Cincinnati, Ohio for a year and then went back to Austria to finish high school in Austria. And then I just had a lot of fun to be honest, when I did my exchange you right? It was actually easier in terms of the schooling, and like the classes and everything. And so I got involved in lots of things like it was in drama, and choir and all these other things. So I was like, this is a lot of fun. I want to do this again. So I decided to go to college in the US and my family always traveled a lot, right. That’s even where like the idea of doing an exchange here came from. But so I did my undergrad at the State University of New York In New Paltz. And at the time still planning on like studying journalism, and then potentially coming back to Austria or not really sure what I was doing. And then as the story goes, right, for so many for us, I became a resident, the system that got involved on campus, and then I learned about what student affairs was, and I was like, Oh, I love doing this, right. And I love doing this more than than the journalism thing that I was studying. And so I was like, let me get into Student Affairs, and then got my Master’s at the University of Connecticut. And then being international, I needed to find an institution that would sponsor me and so that, to be honest, that was a really tough job search right after grad school just because I didn’t know why it’s really tricky to find out who can sponsors and who cannot like there’s some institutions who have posted on their websites, and a lot of them don’t. And a lot of them had various right for what position they’ll sponsor for some positions, not for others. And so it was a lot of just applying all over the place, right to see who’s even gonna be able to hire me and there was folks who offered me on campus interviews. And so right there was also that question of like, when do I tell people that I’m International and that I need to sponsorships and Some people said, don’t tell them until they make you an offer. Because then they’re committed. I didn’t want to wait with reimbursement policies. I was like, I don’t want to go through like an on campus interview, spend a lot of my own money and then not get reimbursed. Because I can’t take the job because they can’t sponsor me. And so I usually told folks before the on campus interview, and they were, you know, it was a mix some institutions, I told them, and they were like, Yeah, not a problem. We’ve done this before, you can come on campus. And there was one institution particular that I remember that, you know, they were like, Oh, we don’t know what we’ll ask, right. And the rest life folks that was applying focus on life positions, they were like, Oh, I’m sure we’ll be fine. And then the next day, they call it and they were like, We’re so sorry, we can’t sponsor. And I was devastated because I really, really wanted to go there. But things worked out, I got a job at Miami of Ohio. And so then I worked at three different institutions in the US, and then I was running out of it. So your your sponsorship is only for six years, so a maximum of six years. And so I did one year on what they call op T which is where you’re still on your student visa, but you’re allowed to work for one year. And then I did six years on what they call h one B, which is temporary work visa. And after six years, it’s done right, you can’t extend it anymore. And so I was getting to the end of the six years, and I was working at UConn at the time. And so I asked them, if they could sponsor me for a green card. And they tried, the department really tried and did whatever they could, but it turned out, they just weren’t able to, to go through with the sponsorship. And so I knew I would have to leave. And then I knew I’d have to figure out something else, right. And it was either like get a doctorate or leave the country kind of that idea of like, I don’t know, but I was like, I always wanted to do Semester at Sea. And so I was like, You know what I’m just gonna apply right now, because I don’t know what’s going to happen in the next couple of years. And so that’s when I did Semester at Sea. And I was actually applying for doctoral programs during Semester at Sea. As Anil enrolled a member, I stressing out about those applications, the whole mortgage. And yeah, and then, so after Semester at Sea, I went back and I did my doctorate, and then actually took a year off doing my doctorate because there’s some immigration stuff was back in Vienna, Austria, and worked for a year at Webster University’s French campus in Vienna, and then went back finished my doctorate, I managed to meet someone and so I got married, I got a green card through marriage, which was not the plan, but worked out. And then after that, I started my faculty career.

Glenn DeGuzman
Wow, that that is an incredible journey. And it has taken us into many different places and giving you sort of experiences both in the United States. And just internationally. It makes me think about, you know, part of my story back in the 90, late 90s, I was I was working at Colorado State full time, and also helping and assisting part time in the Student Affairs and higher education graduate program. In that program, I was able to take a couple of cohorts of students to Belize to travel internationally. And we would go up and down the country and visit various higher education institutions learning about how they do higher education, and more specifically, how student affairs was being developed in Belize. And so now, you know, we fast forward today and seeing how multiple graduate programs offer these type of trips and experiences really to expose graduate students to different to how student affairs looks like internationally. So Kamal, you’re a graduate student right now, I’m curious to hear more about your thoughts on Have you thought about, obviously, you know, your when you graduate, you know, is international working internationally, something that brought up in your graduate program? Do you think about it? If you think about it, what are some of the thoughts, the things that you think about if you were to pursue something like that?

Kamal Singh
For sure, um, I don’t think there’s like major conversation of doing work outside like in my program, there wasn’t a direct conversation about like, oh, you can work like, internationally or stuff like that. I wasn’t that. So I think if that was talked about, that’d be really cool. Because I know there’s a lot of students in my cohort that love to travel that love to go different places and learn and work. So I think that would be a great opportunity if we can incorporate that into our program. But also just for me, I’ve been born and raised in this in the US. And I’ve traveled internationally. I have family that’s still in India, my dad, and my grandfather actually had a place belt when I was younger, and we go there all the time to visit whenever we can. And I think the biggest thing for me is safety. If I know that I’m safe, and I find that my family is going to be safe. I wouldn’t mind going and traveling. I feel like right now India is a place that is very rural, especially the place I come from a very, very small village from Punjab and it’s a very rural rural space and I love it. It’s calm, it’s quiet. There’s no internet, it’s amazing. But when it comes to like safety, that’s the biggest thing I worry about. A majority of family members in my family are women. So that’s the thing that really comes to music, making sure that I’m going to be safe. And if I’m gonna take my family out there one day when I have a family because my family is going to be safe, but I think that’d be a great opportunity incorporating what I’ve learned in these programs in my years of education in the US, and taking that forward and to different places like India, like Gudrun is saying, the education out, education is so different. When it comes to the US, I remember a couple of my cousin’s came when they came over, and my parents sponsored a bunch of their family on their side. And when they came, they’re like, damn, this is what you study, this is so easy. Imagine doing math and science in India, like, it’s intense. So it’s a very, very vast difference of how they teach how they learn what they value there. So I think that would be a very, very interesting intersection to have, it’s like, we’re very much so proper, I’m gonna say that we’re very much so proper in the United States. There’s some gray lines, when it comes to like education and safety and stuff in, in international spaces. So I feel like it’d be, it would be a great challenge. First of all, it would be a great challenge to decipher those and also like, trying to work through and figure out a balance, I feel like, but it’s always been a thought, I think it’d be great to work internationally. But I think the family piece is very, really big and heavy for me.

Glenn DeGuzman
Right? Right. I know that. working internationally, I know, or at least trying to partner internationally. I know that, you know, as a member of ECP, I know that we once had, we had our national conference in Montreal, and I thought that was really cool, working very closely with the Canadian version ACPA. Shout out to Jen Hamilton out there. You know, so I think about, you know, oh, that would be really cool to work internationally. But I know, one of the hurdles, oftentimes, historically, would be like, how do you do that, like, especially if but technology has moved us along so quickly. And it’s even to this day, work modality now has become something that we’re offering people like to work remote and to, you know, work remote from different cities, and that’s a big thing, particularly post pandemic, Nick, you’re hearing sort of like different the different stories here, you know, you know, potentially graduates working, looking for work externally, internationally, you know, people coming from other countries and learning more student affairs and people going abroad and working abroad. I know that you spoke a little bit about work modalities, and the type of factors or variables that I needed to be to potentially pull this off. Maybe you can speak a bit about that.

Nick Fahnders
I would say, I mean, I think first I want to express gratitude for everyone in this space, being very authentic and sharing your, you know, true stories and your real stories. From a work modality standpoint, I will get to it. But I think what I’m really called to respond to is Gudrun story about how she had to think about budgeting her own money for travel for interviews and search processes. And, you know, some things have changed and some things have not but absolutely a plug to say to anyone that’s listening as an advocacy lens, you can prompts if not negotiate for reimbursement for any expenses you incur for on campus or on site interviews, like it’s okay to ask those questions. We, I would say that’s all born out of the same both work modality point, Glenn and what I’m saying now, people don’t know what they don’t know. And I find it really poetic that nobody goes to school to get a bachelor’s degree in hiring or employment methods. But once you leave your degree or degrees, you have to be involved in hiring in some mechanism, and everyone thinks they’re really good at it, and some people are. And I would argue a lot of people have a lot of space to learn how to be more inclusive and more effective in creating space for not just work modalities, but recruiting talent that’s best for the job that you need to get done. So I think in terms of that space, you know, there’s a real tension with, where you live and where you work and what relationship those two concepts have. At the end of the day, if you’re able to tell a story about your skills, I have found that most employers say yeah, if you can do this job, I’ve been doing three full time jobs for the past eight months slash two years slash since the pandemic began. It’s just great to have someone that has the skills to do it. I don’t care where you work, as long as you are effective in this space. Then there are other people particularly in higher education, I think there’s a very on sites, if not born out of need neoliberalism and colonialism, lenses have like, be here because like, here’s where the magic happens. And here’s where students are. And what I can tell you from my full time work is there’s almost a poetic 5050 split of appetite from our, I work with graduate students primarily at the policy school at University of Chicago, a 5050 split of their preference to be on site for a one on one career coaching session, or to be virtual and have that flexibility, especially with a very prominent international citizenship base, who might be going home or might need to travel or might be doing something different. And just really appreciate that equity that comes from equal size, screens, spaces and the zoom, versus I’m in this space where there’s power that I have to account for, because I’m the student and you’re the coach. So there’s a lot that we think unlearned and relearn, starting with quarantine. And for now, I think, you know, the four questions that might be helpful to frame out for everybody here is, I would ask yourself, and if you’re in a space to hire or to, you know, support a team at work, which of these four spaces make the most sense for you option one, completely in person? And why? Option two, completely remote? And why? Option three hybrid? And that’s the most complex, I think, so far, because is that three of the same days each week, that really gives people both flexibility to plan around life happening and schedule doctor’s appointments and child care and different, you know, variables? Or is it just as long as you’re in three ish days a week? And it’s all all the work is getting done? We’re good. And then the question that after that first round of work modality assessment with our policy students we added was, I don’t know. And that wasn’t a poor reflection on the survey participant or the student themselves. It was more reality of nobody really knows how to approach a work framing in a way that feels both current and sustainable for the work that needs to get done. So it’s okay to say, I don’t know, because when we have that data, and we can see that that’s across, you know, different sectors, private, nonprofit government, you know, and it’s a plurality of responses, that begs a bigger question of what like, how do we create spaces for work? And I guess to, you know, bring this back to full circle? Where should we be doing this work and making sure that there’s community because people leave when they don’t feel like they’re connected to both, you know, their work and their people? And also, like, it’s okay to have a couple of weeks and Valencia and let Annalen go to the Mercado and like, get that cultural immersion and experience? Because that changes your perspective? Immensely. Yeah. So I think that’s, that’s my, that’s my gentle TED Talk, in terms of like, sort of responding to part one. And I think Kamal, you know, hearing your story about India, it’s just thinking about two different countries, to contrast the United States sort of lens. Right now, present day, you know, in May of 2020. For India, research on India visas for incoming students to be in a graduate program in the United States can take up to 200 days. So if they’re getting admitted in May, and trying to be here in August, they may not have a visa, you know, to ensure that and what happens then do we differ, do we? How do we support that process when that governmental policy and and, you know, reality is a little bit out of our hands? If not, it’s completely out of our hands. But we want to be helpful. And for those that haven’t followed Dr. Nicholas Stroud, he’s doing awesome research on mobility of pieces and Kosovo specifically. So both from like a troubled country, economically, and a need to really think about who in other countries goes to that country to be, you know, agents of higher education and change and honoring the people that are there that have citizenship lenses, I like that. That’s all pieces that we need to account for. And that’s, that’s really complex. So my biggest question is always, how do we keep that clear? How do we keep that simple? And how do we keep that conversation really grounded as we make decisions on where we work and who we work with?

Kamal Singh
If you don’t mind me jumping? I totally agree with you, Nick. I feel like the biggest thing is that information is not being fed appropriately. And on time, I feel like students, we want international students to come in as soon as they can. We want their money, we want their finances, but information is not being transparent enough. And if like that’s the biggest stressor that there is, like you said like they get accepted in May, when are they going to be able to obtain that means and be able to start their education so I feel like those transparencies are so necessary. So thank you for touching, touching on that.

Glenn DeGuzman
Phenomenal. I want to pivot to the go back over to this idea of work modality and the in what, where we’re at now. Annalyn you’ve traveled, you know, you travel a lot. And I’ve seen you take calls, I’ve seen you in spaces where you’ve been in meetings in different locations. Can you speak in workshops, workshops, I’ve seen you lead isas effectively? And what’s that experience like connecting working? Because you’re oftentimes you’re not in the office, per se, you’re you’re in different locations. I mean, Spain, now Hawaii, I’ve seen you in many different spaces and places.

Annalyn Cruz
I think part of it, again, is that reimagining what work can look and feel like, right, and then having leadership managers, you know, within my own business to, again, not limit ourselves, but to think beyond what we normally have been doing. And so it could be a little bit challenging. It’s like, okay, this is what I have to work with, here’s my background, the unknown. And just making sure we’re on the right time zone, but I totally believe it’s, it’s possible if we, again, you know, sort of to Nick’s point earlier of, are we are we thinking about work in the same ways that we always have in the past? And why, you know, why do we want to necessarily go back to how life was pre pandemic, because folks have changed, right? Like, I know that the current job that I’m in used to be fully in person, and now we’re a remote team, and we do show up for trainings in person, but I have planned my calendars around those events, you know, and I think, if we could, you know, it’s probably easier said than done. But at the same time, I think that there are other opportunities that various organizations, companies, you know, perhaps in student affairs, or we could think a little more creatively about what work can look and feel like, and then think about the employee engagement that would happen. If we allow more work life, balance, integration, however way you want to name it. Because I will tell you, I’m a happier person having done this trip and having to be exposed to other cultures and being uncomfortable, and not being in the majority of being able to speak my primary language, which is English, it’s so humbling. And the connections that I’m able to have, even if, you know, at the at the little top was lazy, I would say the day the little bakery, we were speaking in broken Spanish and English, and we were, but it’s like, we were vibing. And I thought to myself, again, because of this conversation, this has confirmed that I want to be in spaces like this and not just live a life of status quo. And I’m like, oh, even just saying that out loud. Like, what does that mean? Like, what am I then calling into, into existence? You know, and getting

Glenn DeGuzman
more fired up? This is a crazy comment, I want to apply for a job.

Nick Fahnders
Yeah, I mean, you sparked two really, really salient thoughts in Atlanta one, it’s the privilege of being able to travel to different countries with different Spanish speaking mechanisms has been really humbling for me, because I took Spanish, you know, in college, and you know, pre college, and have been to Mexico, Cuba, and Espanol, Spain, and traveling to Spain with my partner, he. He’s very conversational in German. So he’s, he’s got some really high standards. So I wasn’t necessarily just trying to impress him, I was trying to be effective in communicating and sort of making that small talk with people in Spain. And he wasn’t really impressed with my Spanish in Spain, but we just got back from vacation in the Dominican Republic at an all inclusive resort and being in the same space for seven days and realizing you really only need to say like 15 different sentences, like I’ll have another Margarita, and this is what I’m gonna food. And this is how I say hello, Mike asked me how your day is going. He was like, you’re really good at Spanish. And I was like, what? Yeah, well, it’s the like, the practice and the concrete. You know, prompts are very clear to me. So I’m more confident I’m more comfortable. And I’m more aware of how to account for different conversation types and like what what connection really feels like in a conversation. And when I think about work modalities, as a raging introvert who knows it’s an extroverts world, you know, I assure super unlearned, in the pandemic, the art of small talk, and I typically speed right to like, who are you? And like, what is your deepest secret that I can, like, honor and support you so I can know you and like reciprocate. And there are so many, you know, I think the phrase I hear a lot is water cooler mechanisms of in person work. And my partner he works at here on, you know, a global consulting firm, where they’re like, their billable hours as a salary mechanism. And I don’t think they necessarily care about small talk, it’s more like, how do we build these hours? And how does this work get done, and if that’s all that you need to do, and that’s really clear to you come to work and get your work done, and then go to do like what you need to do. That’s at odds with a lot of higher education culture about both students support after hours, and just the attitude and ethics of people doing that work in Student Affairs now, of being around for all the water coolers both for colleagues, and students. And what does that mean? And how is that really, frankly, from a student outcomes? You know, like, post graduation standpoint? How are we preparing our students to reckon with all the different disciplines of work modalities outside of the industry? That’s, that’s something that’s really top of mind. For me.

Glenn DeGuzman
It’s very interesting, interesting, Gudrun do you think that, you know, shared a lot about this, the diverse work modalities that that can exist, and I got all fired up, I sometimes wonder from a faculty perspective, you know, because I stopped the faculty, and I know some of them have, you know, the, the need for sometimes campus to say, faculty to come back to campus, and you need to teach in the traditional, you know, brick and mortar type of classroom. I wonder, from your perspective, you know, you feel like maybe from your peers or college or even even just your personal experiences, like utilizing different work modalities to teach classroom in classroom settings, you had to do it during the pandemic, right. Yeah,

Gudrun Nyunt
I mean, we have to do it during the pandemic, right. And I think the question is always the, why are you doing it, and I don’t think we spend enough time really thinking about it. And we sometimes just, you know, during the pandemic, we all had to do it. And then there was definitely that Call of like, everyone go back to in person, and there wasn’t really that like, taking the time to think about what makes sense for what population. Like for me during the pandemic, since I teach in a higher ed student affairs program, I noticed like with our master students, those courses were really tough to teach online, it was just that there was a lack of engagement. In many ways, there was something there was just we needed that personal touch, right, that connection to really build that community, have the students feel more comfortable asking questions really engaged with the material. On the other hand, for our doctoral students, which are our doctoral programs, already hybrid programs. So that was a little bit easier, because we were used to having some asynchronous content. And then in person meetings, and those in person meetings are now synchronous online meetings. But that engagement was that like they were our doc students were fine during the pandemic, right, like they adjust that conversation was great during those in person meetings, I really didn’t feel like there was anything missing. And we did go back to to the traditional kind of in person meetings for those hybrid courses. And there’s a little bit bit of that additional, like community building. But I think often we just forget to ask, or really take the time to reflect on what makes sense, because even as faculty, and I mean, faculty already have a lot of freedom of where we work, and when we work and how we work what we do. But even that way, my campus was very much the kind of school where there was an expectation that you’re on campus certain days a week. And then the pandemic really shifted that there was a mix it was the pandemic shifted it. And then we also hired some faculty during the pandemic, who didn’t live near campus, right. And so really the culture change to where now most of us are on campus, if we’re teaching in person, or if we have a meeting, and the other days, we work from home or wherever else we want to choose to work from. And it’s changed how it worked. Like I noticed for me, right? On the days when I’m there, I don’t I usually have like a to do list for every day. And those days, I put nothing on my to do list, because I’m literally like, this is my in person day, right? I have a couple of meetings, and then I’m going to stop by different people’s offices and kind of that water cooler talk, right that we talked about, and check in with people and I know I’m not gonna get anything done. And then the days when I’m at home, I’m super productive. And I’m waiting papers, I’m grading papers, I’m doing all the things right. And so for me, it’s really become like kind of a nice balance, right? Where I’m like, I’m getting that personal interactions and the days I’m on campus, and then I actually feel like I get a lot of work done when I’m home.

Glenn DeGuzman
I’m looking at our time and we’re almost at a time. The one thing that we always do on sniffers now is we close this question and it’s really just sort of a closing question because it ties in with the conversation that we just had. And we covered a lot of various topics. And so Kamal, I’m gonna have you start, if you can take one or two minutes to kind of answer this question, but this podcast is called Student Affairs now. And if you can summarize your, you know, your thoughts, what you’re pondering and thinking about based on this conversation, maybe something that you’re still questioning or something you want to explore based on something that one of the, your your panelists just shared, or maybe something that’s still troubling you, if you can just give us your final thoughts.

Kamal Singh
Yeah, for sure. Thank you. Um, first off, I just want to say thank you again, for this opportunity. It’s amazing to sit with amazing colleagues. Now I can say since I’ve graduated, it’s amazing. And I’m so so appreciative of all of this, but um, Student Affairs NOW, I feel like we need more people that genuinely care about this field. I feel like this is a helping profession. And you only come into a field like this if you genuinely care for students, and you want to advocate for their success and want to teach them how to go forward with a college degree. So I just want to say that this conversation really sparked some light bulbs about how I should advocate for myself when it comes to like job searching or how do I want to work like I know Gudrun was talking about how the before I know you, we were very much so like, on campus being here, and I was one of those students. I’m a double husky, I got my bachelor’s here, I got my masters here. And I loved being on campus, I was so upset when I had to spend 18 months in a room filled with like, with my family around, it was so hectic and I loved being on campus. But now that doing this master’s program and understanding the nuances of working and doing school, it, it makes me understand why like having those having a modality of like doing hybrid, or giving the chance to take a break and not going in or not going in person and just running all the time. I feel like during your undergrad, I feel like a lot of us are just on the go all the time. But when you’re doing like pursuing a second degree or like your PhD, you have to like just stand still a bit and understand what your priorities are. And I feel like being able to have those, those six to eight 840 classes used to used to be so upsetting sometimes, because I’m like, I’m not paying attention. And this is so hard. And sometimes when we would have them hybrid they were I mean sorry, online, it was just a breath of fresh air, I can just sit, be comfortable and actually pay attention. So I feel like being able to give those tools to those up and coming students to understand like, it’s okay to advocate for yourself, it’s okay to ask for things that you think are justified so you can reach your best potential and you can learn so those are my little tidbits. But um, yeah, I just feel like giving those giving those tools to those students, so they know that it’s okay to ask for things. And if you don’t ask, you’re never gonna receive. So just those little things. But again, thank you so much for this opportunity. It has been such a pleasure to speak with you guys.

Glenn DeGuzman
Thanks Kamal. Gudrun, your final thoughts?

Gudrun Nyunt
Yeah, I think the thing I’m sitting with this, right, we’ve talked about how we’re living in this increasingly interconnected global world. And things have drastically changed for all of us during the pandemic, but then we so often get stuck in the same structures, again, that we know are not working. But we’re so hesitant to kind of let go of those. And the one thing that I’ve been struggling with in that regard, right, as we’re seeing an increased interest of international students in student affairs, and so all of our master’s programs across the countries, right, have lots and lots of applicants from out of the country. And we don’t know what to do with them. Because the way we think about student affairs is so US centric, right? For our students, when they when our international students apply, we struggle with getting them assistantships, because they don’t have the experiences that employers are looking for. Or they don’t use the same language, right, that employers are, are used to. And so and then like the whole admissions process gets challenging. And then even if they get in, and as faculty, I’m like, in the middle or serving as program coordinator for our program, I’m always stuck in the middle where I’m like, international student services should tell you this, I don’t actually know the answer. But you’re not getting the answers. And then I’m trying to figure out who to call. Right. And so yeah, I think I think the big thing I’m thinking about is just as the world is changing, and as we’re changing, we really need to think about how do we let go of some of these structures and some of that this is how we’ve always done it and really embrace the possibilities that out there.

Glenn DeGuzman
Nick, final thoughts.

Nick Fahnders
Since Kamal talked about students and Gudrun, sort of created some policy and colleague prompts, I’ll take the employer slash policymaking lens of there’s a real need to I think there’s too many variables and any one person here in this who’s in a position of power to make a decision or a policy around work modality would be like, Yeah, but not me. Like this is why This is different from my institution or my specific functional area. So I hear I hear you, you know, trying to channel my, my Jean Grey X men tell up the you know, with those notions. And I would say, why can’t we though have more universal narratives around where you work and what that looks like, in a process before a hiring offer is made. And before a decision to accept that offer happens for a job candidate, so that everybody feels clear and consistent on where the work gets done. And you can really focus on the quality of work instead of all the parameters at work, because I think 90% of how work is being done, especially hearing Goodwin’s talk about how you know, like, the to do list is different based on an in person day versus a remote day be gets constant analysis paralysis, if you will, of like, how am I waking up and spending my day, and if we can clarify that by just being a little bit more thoughtful and a little bit more deliberate? Everybody’s going to have a much more deliberate, I think, approach to, frankly, student success and student affairs now, TM, and being a better colleague, in terms of when I respond, and how I qualify my responses because I’m, I’m kind of over the like, I’m sick, or here’s the excuse, or here’s the truth about like, why this can’t happen this way, right now, for me, like, it should be converted out of excuse land, and more into let’s humanize this work. So that it isn’t such a neoliberal notion that it’s all about those billable hours, you know, if that’s not who we are as an industry.

Glenn DeGuzman
Wow, thank you for that. And Lynne, why don’t you close us out?

Annalyn Cruz
Yeah, I mean, I would, I would say, definitely want to echo the possibilities, and thinking about work more creatively. And what does teaming look like, when there is more of a global diverse workforce, you know, as an example, like, what what magic can happen there? And, you know, I have to say that, and I mentioned this earlier, before we recorded but my nervous system feels at ease here, in a very large city. Like, everyone’s kind of in flow, it’s really, really interesting to observe what what I’m noticing just around and so I guess my, my, my pondering for myself, for all of us, for those listening is what? What does wellness and balance and integration and looking at our holistic lives? How can we make that meaningful for each and every single one of us? What does that look like? You know, and how do we step outside of our normal comfort zone, in order to grow as human beings and as global citizens of this world and of this universe? I’m just kind of left pondering like, yeah, what does this mean for me individually, but as a collective? How do we continue to support and heal some? That’s what I’m thinking of.

Glenn DeGuzman
That’s a great way to end this podcast. This has been a terrific conversation. And I think I’m walking away with more questions and wanting me to explore I’m curious about additional things that you all shared. So I appreciate you, helping expand even just sort of my understanding and awareness of certain things. So thank you for all of that. Thank you, Nick. Thank you, AnnaLynne. Thank you, Kamal. Take a good run for this excellent episode. I want to thank our sponsors for today’s episode. Routledge Taylor and Francis is the world’s leading academic publisher in education, publishing a wide range of books, journals, and other resources for practitioners, faculty, administrators and researchers. We have welcomed Stylus publishing to our publishing program and are thrilled to enrich our offerings in higher education, teaching Student Affairs, professional development, assessment and more. Routledge is proud to support soon first now view their complete catalogue of authoritative education titles@routledge.com forward slash education. Huron is a global professional services firm that collaborates with clients to put possible into practice by creating sound strategies, optimizing operations, accelerating digital transformation and empowering businesses and their people to their own future by embracing diverse perspectives, encouraging new ideas and challenging the status quo Huron creates sustainable results for the organizations they serve. So thank you, to our sponsors. And thank you again And to Nat Ambrosey, our producer who’s going to do all the behind the scenes work to make all of us on this panel look good. I want to thank everyone for continuing to listen to student fares. Now. If you haven’t subscribed to our newsletter, please do. So. With that, go out. Have a great day. See you next week. Bye

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