Lindsay Pérez Huber:
I think that’s one of, kind of the underlying critical functions of racist nativism is that there is a perceived threat. Right. And that’s when we begin to see these surges, is that when there’s a perceived threat of a of a population of color, right. That’s when we begin to see these upticks in instances of violence with Asian Americans being targeted right now in this moment, right. Because of the kind of ongoing pandemic, we see that happening, there’s a perceived threat of just existence. Right. Just being, just being in a space. And, and that’s something that we’ve seen historically over and over again, which is, you know it so what we’re trying to do is, is figure out, you know, how do we begin to disrupt some of these cycles in our schools, for our students, right. Who are, who are experiencing this every day?

Keith Edwards:
Hello and welcome to Student Affairs Now I’m your host, Keith Edwards. Today we’re discussing the racist rhetoric from politicians and other figures in US culture and the implications for harm activism and social change with the two editors and also authors of the new book, Why they Hate Us, how racist rhetoric impacts education. Very timely. Indeed. Student affairs now is the premier podcast and learning community for thousands of us who are in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We hope you’ll find these conversations, make a contribution to the field and are restorative to the profession. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays. Find us at studentaffairsnow.com or on Twitter. Today’s episode is sponsored by Stylus and Leadershape. Stylus is proud to be a sponsor of Student Affairs Now podcasts. Browse their student affairs, diversity and professional development titles, at styluspub.com.

Keith Edwards:
You can use promo code SANow for 30% off all their books plus free shipping. You can find Stylus on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, LinkedIn, and Twitter @styluspub. LeaderShape is a not-for-profit organization that has been partnering with colleges, universities, and organizations in creating transformational leadership experiences since 1986, with a focus on creating a more just, caring and thriving world leadership provides both virtual and in-person leadership development opportunities for students and professionals. When you partner with Leadershape, you’ll receive quality development experiences that engage learners in topics of courageous, dialogue, integrity, equity, resilience, and community building to find out more about their virtual programs, please visit leadershape.org/virtual programs. You can also learn more about their organization on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn. As I mentioned, I’m your host, Keith Edwards, my pronouns. Are he/him/his. I’m a speaker consultant and coach and you can find out more about me at keithedwards.com.

Keith Edwards:
I’m hosting this conversation today from Minneapolis, Minnesota, which is the ancestral Homeland of both the Dakota and Ojibwe peoples. Today we’re exploring the racist rhetoric in our culture, its impact and solutions to move us forward. Let’s meet our two guests for today .We get a real treat. We get usual host Susana Munoz is here as a guest and your co-editor and scholar and friend. So let’s get a chance to meet both of you. Lindsay, let’s begin with you. Tell us a little bit about you and how you came to this particular project and then we’ll hear from Susana.

Lindsay Pérez Huber:
Sure. my name is Lindsay Pérez Huber. I’m an associate professor in the college of education at Cal State Long Beach. My pronouns are she/her/hers. And so this work connects, I think most closely to my work around race and education and immigration looking at how anti LatinX racism emerges in educational trajectories of LatinX students. And also kind of trying to understand the, the forms of systemic racism that students are experiencing in school systems. There’s it also connects, I think in some ways to my work around racial microaggressions as well. So kind of the everyday forms of racism and racist nativism that students of color encounter.

Keith Edwards:
Well, thanks for that introduction, Lindsay really appreciate that. And the microaggressions, I think we’re getting you on a podcast episode coming up here soon. So we’re giving our audience a double dose of you, which is wonderful to do Susana tell a folks who don’t know you, who haven’t listened to your other episodes as a host. Tell us a little bit about you as a guest and your work with this book.

Susana Muñoz:
Sure. So again,Susana Muñoz she, her, ella pronouns I’m coming to you then the lands of the ancestor, homelands of the Ute, Arapahoe, and Cheyenne peoples. I am an associate professor and program chair of the Higher Education Leadership program at Colorado State University. And the way I arrived to this work is very similar to, to Lindsay in the sense that, you know, working with and for undocumented students and immigrant communities in my research and, and really tackling notions of anti-immigration sentiments, I think you know, I, I fan girl Lindsay all the time cause I cite her, her stuff and her framing it’s super useful to frame you know, what’s happening with undocumented college students from like a racist nativist lens. And so I think what, the way I come into the work in is, is also thinking about how, how the elections have impacted our college students and just really thinking intently about our administrators as well and what needs to change. And how do we handle sort of this really, really fine line around free speech versus hate speech that comes in many forms on our college campuses. So I’m happy to be here and excited for the conversation.

Keith Edwards:
Wonderful. Well, let’s hear a little bit about this book, this project that you’ve been working on probably for years now and is now out and available for folks Lindsay, why don’t you tell us a little bit about the book, how it came to be a quick outline for context?

Lindsay Pérez Huber:
Sure. So I think the book, if I think back kind of where it started I actually, I was thinking about this the other day about Susana. It was at a conference we were at UC Riverside. When we were asked to come in and talk about experiences of undocumented students there and Susana and I were, you know, had, we’re having a side conversation and she was telling me, did you hear what happened at Iowa state? And I said, no, what happened? And so she’s telling me about during the time Trump is just beginning, you know, his campaigning and there was a rally there of students and you know, students are you know, talking about and, and yelling you know, w relating white supremacy to Trump, right. And there was one young girl who said, something like vote for white supremacy to show her support, you know, for this candidate.

Lindsay Pérez Huber:
And it was this moment where I was like, Whoa, what’s going on. Right. Like, like really wanting to understand what was happening because you know, racism has always been there. But it was emerging and kind of a particular way that we hadn’t really seen in kind of recent right. Recent decades. And so really wanting to understand how the political context was now kind of changing the discourse around racism to these more kind of overt right support of racism and white supremacy. And, and, and so I think it was kind of like in conversation with Susana, and this was, I mean, this was, I guess it was in 2015 when the campaign had just started. And then really paying attention and kind of documenting what was happening from there is trying to understand how this campaign really had kind of a significant impact on the discourses around racism that were targeting LatinX immigrants in particular.

Lindsay Pérez Huber:
Right. and, and, and wanting to kind of theorize that and documented and help us understand what was happening at that moment. And so that’s, I think kind of where the very early ideas of the book came from and then I guess the, the actual work on the book started, maybe it was about a year and a half ago, Susana. You know, as you know, the, the election year was coming really wanting to have a book that would document the experiences of how this racist rhetoric was impacting students in our schools and particularly students of color, especially immigrant students. And so that’s when Susana and I started talking about you know, working together on a book that would invite people who were doing that research to you know have chapters that would really lay out, you know, how this mattered for students in their everyday lives and in their schooling experiences, both in K-12, and also in higher ed.

Keith Edwards:
I love this story about, you know partnership and at a particular place and hearing a particular thing. And then from that moment in a campaign in 2015 the rhetoric to me seems like it has just been escalating, escalating, and maybe the feelings and ideas underneath it have always been there, but the boldness and the explicitness and the willing to be public about some of this really seems to have escalated Susana, would you, would you want to add? And we’d love a little quick outline of the book for context.

Susana Muñoz:
Yeah. So I think what what Lindsay was saying is that we, we were all watching what was happening on our college campuses. And you know, with that event at Iowa state, I think was like, you know, a profound and it was videotaped, right. And so it was like, you got to see it on YouTube. You know, what this woman said, and, you know, she just sort of ripped down a sign that somebody was holding and protest of Trump. And so I think we, we S we continue to see that in bold in this, and, you know, one of the visuals that I often use in presentations is that you know, at Colorado State, you know, all our lower students center, you know, students build a cardboard wall, you know, saying this is Trump’s wall, you know, and, and I think that to me was like, this is, this is pretty emboldened and blatant what we’re seeing.

Susana Muñoz:
And not only that, we were also seeing a lot of white nationalist, paraphernalia being posted on our campuses, you know, around white nationalists identities. And and, you know, and when we, we both were looking at what we call the Trump effect with the Southern Poverty Law Center called the Trump of coin. The Trump effect is sort of this heightened emboldeneness, you know, in our schools. And so, you know, what we outline in this book is, you know, sort of like the educational pipeline of how this rhetoric has impacted, you know, school children, you know, and how principals have been noticing, and the heightened hate, hate messages in schooling and understanding, you know, how, how it’s also you know, mitigated, you know, our principals talking about this. And so we, we what’s really cool about this book is that it really touches every aspect of the educational pipeline from community college to, you know, K through 12, and then also showing how kids are really resisting, you know, how using their art and voice to really resist.

Susana Muñoz:
And I think what was really profound for me and the beautiful contributions that the authors make is that they’re, you know, they utilize a moment to help children really understand their context and really what what’s at stake, and to really fight back and to say that I care this much about my community. I want this to stop. And so I think that the book really does a great job of outlining that. And I think the conclusion chapter was, I think, I think it was really hard for me and Lindsay to conclude this book because stuff just kept happening. Right. And so it was like, you know, it’s like, Oh my gosh, like another black man was murdered. You know, we, we need to acknowledge this, you know, and another incident and another incident, you know, and I think we were, we were closing or submitting the entire manuscript, and then January 6th happened with the you know, insurrection at the Capitol. And we’re just like, Oh my, I think both Lindsay and I were like, I wish I could have taken back our book and written more about that because it connects to everything that we were writing about. So, so, yeah, so I feel this really captures sort of what we’re not only historically where we have been rooted, but currently where we’re at.

Keith Edwards:
Great, great, well, I’m so glad that you moved a conversation to this project, so timely, so precious of you to see this coming and wanting to document the impact on students. And I love how you have organized the authors and really lots of different perspectives, the art, the history theoretical and conceptual framing practice. Really looking at a lot of different things from a lot of different angles. And there’s really a tone here of here’s the problem. Here’s how it affects people. Here’s how people are resisting. And there’s some possibilities here. So, Lindsay, tell us a little bit about how you frame the book in your thinking as you were organizing it and reaching out to authors and organizing chapters.

Lindsay Pérez Huber:
Yeah. So I think the way that Susana and I really were intentional about the framing was to use critical race theory as kind of a foundational point to theorize the racist rhetoric that we saw happening. And so from CRT you know, we use the conceptual framework of racist nativism that really looks at the intersections of race and immigration status and how it matters in the lives of immigrant students. And so, you know, and, and also what Susana mentioned earlier is, you know, trying to figure out what, what was happening with this kind of emboldened behavior, right? That was both you know a more comfortable performance of white supremacy in terms of right, the building of the cardboard walls and the PR and posting of white supremacy, propaganda, but also the real violence that was being perpetrated upon communities of color, right.

Lindsay Pérez Huber:
By by white nationalists and, and you know neo-Nazis, and what was happening during the time. Charlottesville is also something that we talk about in the book, right. That, you know, all of a sudden we see this kind of surge in white nationalism. And so the introduction really tries to kind of set the foundation of, you know, how do we use CRT to theorize what we see happening and racist nativism. So looking at also how cultural theory can help us understand how, you know, what’s happening is that these discourses of racism and white supremacy begin to influence behaviors of people right. Through articulatory practices. So this is like some of Stuart Hall’s work that right. So we have these beliefs and ideologies in racism and white supremacy operating. We see those clearly, but those are really what is the directly influencing the behaviors of people to enact right.

Lindsay Pérez Huber:
Building of cardboard walls, or to perpetrate like actual violence, or to come out and you know March around Robert E. Lee on their, on their college campuses. And, and so that’s kind of how the introduction is framed and also really acknowledging, and to Senate, does this also in the following chapters. We’ve also been very intentional to talk about, as you mentioned earlier history, right. And how, yes. You know, we can look at the Trump era, but this didn’t start with Trump and it, and as we see now, it certainly didn’t end with Trump. Right. Right. And so this, this racism and these articulatory practices of racist nativism are, have a have historical legacy that goes back many, many, many, many years in, in the U S and then in, in the, in the first chapter. Susana kind of extends on some of the, those that are, that are introduced in the beginning and then expands on them to talk about imperialistic reclamation

Keith Edwards:
Before we move there. Could you just give us a little bit more about racist nativism? Just tell us a little bit more about what that is and what that means.

Lindsay Pérez Huber:
Yeah. So racist nativism is a concept that was theorized from CRT. That was really meant to understand that intersection between race and immigration status. And so how our LatinX students in particular racialized as immigrant, whether they were, they are immigrant or maybe born here. Right. And so so racist nativism is also placed within or situated within kind of a historical context to understand how various immigrant groups of color throughout the U S have been targeted by racist nativism. Right? So this idea that you are perpetually a perpetual foreigner but at the same time, what’s important about racist nativism is that there is this kind of racialized foreignness, but that has a function. So there is a function to the racialization of foreignness for people of color. And that is to uphold the status of who is perceived to be native, which in historically in the U S has, has perceived to be white folks. Right. And so there’s kind of a dual kind of function of, of racist nativism that upholds the status of the perceived native. And, and this is problematic, right? Because we know that indigenous communities have been here and proceeded white settlers for, you know, thousands of years. But also there’s this process of racialized foreignness that people of color have been targeted by historically.

Keith Edwards:
Yeah. Thank you so much. That’s very helpful. I really appreciate that. Susana, what were you going to add here about the framing?

Susana Muñoz:
No, I think one of the other framings that we used here too, is, is to talk about sort of the intersection of interest convergence and whiteness as property. And so interest convergence is was coined by Derek Bell. And it really, it just insinuates that, you know there were benefits to people of color are only you know, delivered when it also benefits white people. Right. And so, as long as that, there’s that interest for whiteness, I think that sort of, it’s a lot more palatable. So when we talk about, you know, whiteness as property, we talk about sort of this notion of how to sustain white supremacy and how that systemic, but also we see in our society sort of this notion of perilous stick replica reclamation, which is sort of the reclaiming of those, you know, those perceived benefits to people of color.

Susana Muñoz:
And so when one of the prime examples is that we often use as affirmative action, right. And so, you know, only when it, you know, and it has benefited white people you know, do, do we allow that, but when we see, you know, more minoritized bodies and, you know sort of in those spaces of, with, of whiteness and that sort of that, where that reclamation comes in. And so we see that in, you know, being articulated, you know, through racist nativism. And so it’s not you know, it’s not a surprise that, you know, there is this, you know, anti-immigrant you know rhetoric out there because, you know, some that our leader, you know, up from her leader was, you know you know, using racist rhetoric to frame this population. And so what happens is that there’s as embolden this to sort of take back what was sort of perceived as, you know whiteness, I take back sort of things that were originally deemed, you know, for certain people. And so we, we see that in terms of the, the demographic changes that, you know, and again, you know, we have to really, you know, I go back to Lindsay’s chapter where she talks about, you know, like in 19, what was it in 1990? What was the proposition 180 or, yeah.

Susana Muñoz:
Yeah. So, you know, the, say that again.

Lindsay Pérez Huber:
Prop 187 in 1994.

Susana Muñoz:
Right. And so, you know, that was all framed around, save our state from, from immigrants. Right. And so, and that passed. So I think what we’re, we, we continue to see these patterns articulated in and only, you know, from a historical sense, but contemporary, we see these patterns of, you know, they’re demographically, there’s too many, there’s too many, you know, minoritized bodies, demographically there’s too many immigrants. And so there is continues to be sort of this emboldened backlash. And so that’s how they interest convergence and whiteness as property when they intersect with one another, you know, we get this in parallel inparalytistic reclamation where it’s that, okay, we need to take this back. And so that’s okay.

Keith Edwards:
There’s some real heavy lifting terms, racist nativism, interest convergence, whiteness as property in period. Allistic reclamation love learning about all of this. And both of you are so clear about how this connects, but what is, as I’m listening to this, it’s reminding me that we are now seeing that people who storm the Capitol predominantly came from the, the number one predictor was they came from counties where the white population was going down. And so it’s a very tangible thing is you’re pointing to these dynamics, the socio-cultural factors and then the radical leading to action and violence, right. Where it’s there. So we’ll tell us,

Lindsay Pérez Huber:
I think that’s one of, kind of the, the, the underlying critical functions of racist nativism is that there is a perceived threat. Right. And that’s when we begin to see these surges, is that when there’s a perceived threat of a of a population of color, right. That’s when we begin to see these upticks in instances of violence with Asian Americans being targeted right now in this moment, right. Because of the kind of ongoing pandemic, we see that happening, there’s a perceived threat of just existence. Right. Just being, just being in a space. And, and that’s something that we’ve seen historically over and over again, which is, you know it so what we’re trying to do is, is figure out, you know, how do we begin to disrupt some of these cycles in our schools, for our students, right. Who are, who are experiencing this every day?

Susana Muñoz:
And the one thing I would just, Oh, I just want it to add sort of, you know, what you said, Keith, in terms of like, you know, this fear of being replaced, that’s exactly what it is. Right. And so there’s actually like historical documents and even anti-immigrant propaganda that was produced back in, you know, the early 1900 around replacement theory. Right. And, and so you connect that to the chance from unite, the right rally in Charlottesville, you will not replace us. That’s, that’s, that’s exactly what’s happening in terms of what impair like reclamation, it looks like,

Keith Edwards:
Well, and you have these, these trends, these demographics, then you have all of this rhetoric. And some of the people using the rhetoric are violent. Some of them are using the rhetoric or giving permission. They may not be violent themselves, but that rhetoric gives permission to others, which we see anybody who’s been on a playground knows that if you some people will talk the talk, but not do it, but they give permission for others to take that action, right. Whether that’s bullying or storming the Capitol, or posting boxes lot of justification, I love to move to the impacts and also some of the solutions. So Susana, maybe you can begin by telling us about what through this project and others, what you’re seeing as the impacts of this rhetoric on all of us.

Susana Muñoz:
So I think the number one impact that we, that I sort of saw across all of the chapters was on, on mental wellness, right? On mental health, in terms of what this rhetoric does to children, you know, on a deep, in terms of being learners and existing in spaces where that’s a perpetual thing that they have to see on an ongoing basis, not only within their school, but in communities. And so and so I think, you know, what, what I, what I liked about what the authors had to offer is, you know, there, there has to be a point where we go beyond sort of like you know, the dialogue, right? The dialogue is great. You know, having more conversations, you know you know, around sort of these de-colonizing curriculums, you know, and really naming like white supremacy, really being authentic about you know, how our country has, you know framed demographics, you know, from, from the beginning.

Susana Muñoz:
And so I think having those conversations is important and action, and so it’s not enough to just leave it at the, yes, we’re going to train our way out of this. You know, we’re gonna, you know, talk through, you know, and do book clubs. And, you know, there has to be something entrenched, you know, within our schooling system, some notion of accountability pieces that really centers humanity, that really centers what does it mean to be anti-racist, you know, as a school, as a pedagogy, as a leader. So I think those are the, so the, the impact and the, the, I think my, my wishes, you know, is that this book just goes beyond, you know, the conversation that, you really take a look at the book and see, okay, what, what are some systemic changes that we can be thinking about and, and how to create anti-racist schooling within our, you know, our system,

Keith Edwards:
As you’re talking about the dialogue and the value of dialogue, but that, you know, I was reminded of whose learning comes at whose expense, right? If we’re going to have a lot of dialogue about whether certain people have equal humanity to others, so that some people can discover that and learn that who has to keep continuing justifying their existence and their humanity in the process of doing that. And what’s the price that paid. And I think that that is a very difficult thing and oftentimes ignored as we focus on the learning of the dominant culture, the dominant narrative but then also as you’re talking about the learning and doing this, but moving to action reminded of practice, let’s keep learning and then doing, and then learning about how we did and do it better and continue in that ongoing cycle. Lindsay, what would you want to add here about impacts and potential solutions?

Lindsay Pérez Huber:
Yeah, I think, you know, just building off of what Susana is mentioning about I, I think one thing that cuts across all of the chapters also is the need for campus leadership, whether that’s leadership in K-12 schools or leadership in higher ed to really want to do something right, to really be able to understand the history of racism in the U S which most of our leadership does not. Right. We, we get that in, you know, very siloed disciplinary trainings and ethnic studies, which most folks, you know, don’t have the opportunity to take or don’t take in, in their own educational trajectories and understand how right, what we see happening and what our students are experiencing every day are situated in much broader histories of right oppressive conditions and experiences and, you know, for leaders to not place the responsibility of this work on their faculty of color, on their teachers of color, on their students of color and to really take the responsibility to, to learn and to do it on their own and, and learn how to do it.

Lindsay Pérez Huber:
Right. that’s one of the things that we talk about in the last chapter is how, you know, both of us in our work as, faculty you know, there’s a cultural taxation that happens when you are, you know, constantly the one being you know tagged to do or to consult or to ask questions. It shouldn’t, it shouldn’t be that way, right? It should be our campus leadership who begins to want to cultivate some of these skills and tools on their own to also be able to engage the work, which I think is really important, especially right now, when so many schools and campuses and institutions are wanting to do anti-racist work, the labor is really playing out in very inequitable ways. And we see that happening all the time.

Keith Edwards:
Right. And there’s a, there’s a tension there between wanting to center the voices of the minoritized and the oppressed with also not wanting to place that burden on them, which reinforces those systems of oppression. And I, I’m just thinking a lot lately about how we don’t try and either, or that, but how do we, how do we go into the messiness of the, both and of that and wrestle with that? Susana, what would you like to add here?

Susana Muñoz:
No, I think the other component of it is for institutions to really think about beyond performative activism. Right. And so thinking about like, it’s you know, these very beautiful messages that get sent out when, you know, events of injustice has happened, but, you know, I think it goes back to, okay, like if you’re really committed to being

Susana Muñoz:
Anti-Racist and pro equity compensate, the people that are doing the work compensate, those centers that do the bulk of this work compensate ethnic studies compensate, you know, multicultural centers, compensate, you know students that are part of that educational process. And so I think, you know, that commitment without any compensation is not a commitment. And so I think that’s one of the things that I get very frustrated about is that there’s really great PR around equity, you know, with our institutions, but there’s not necessarily like the institutional action and how to make really courageous change within your institution to stop being a place that is you know, uphold whiteness that we see on a constant level. So I am always intention with a higher education. I’m always intention with, you know yes, being outspoken as an institution about these injustices, but, you know, you need to also look at, you know, what’s been going on in your own community to say we, you know, we need to do better and we need to do better in these ways. And this is what we’re committed to doing in terms of substantial institutionalized and holding people accountable. So yes, I’ll get off my soap box.

Keith Edwards:
No, we love, we love your soap boxes Susana, love it. I’m seeing a real mirror here between what the book is sort of chronicling, which is the rhetoric and then the actions and violence that stems to that, to what you’re calling for is not just rhetoric about anti-racism and supporting students and faculty, but also actions to compensate, to shift policy, to add requirements, to reorganize things, to do more than just do, as we’ve talked about it in other contexts, performative land acknowledgements to put out statements. I do think the statements have gotten better than they used to be really bad statement statements now are getting much better. So that’s progress now, how did we go from good statements to, we went from bad statements to good statements. How did we go from good statements to good action? And hopefully there won’t be sort of that bad action in between there, but there’s a lot of space to go, as you pointed out compensation, as we talked about ethnic studies, availability and requirements, and making part of the general education so that we have a broader understanding of these issues in the context that organizing shapes every one of our lives, not just some of our lives.

Keith Edwards:
What would you like to add here? Lindsay, about the impacts and solutions. We have a lot of folks who are listening to this, who, who are leaders in, in higher education whether they’re in positional leadership or they have the voice of the ears of students who look up to them and admire them as new professionals who they can see relate to them. Thoughts about ways that folks who are listening to this can move from the rhetoric to some, some solutions and some action.

Lindsay Pérez Huber:
I think one thing to think about for administrators is that you know, more and more our demographics are shifting are those in power though are not. And so what does that mean to be someone in a position of power who comes from a very different experience, a very different background than the institutions and schools and students inside those places look like or from, and I think that, you know, one thing that administrators need to start thinking about is you know, what does it mean to let go of a little bit of their power to lift up these, the students and the communities that they are committed to, if we’re talking about equity, what does that look like? Because there’s some power dynamics that have to shift in order to do this work. And so, so what is it that needs to be, let go?

Lindsay Pérez Huber:
And when I say, you know, letting go of power, that means not in, not necessarily individually, some of that can happen individually, but also in terms of the ways that we structure our institutions and our schools to operate, right. What, what needs to happen? What do we need to let go of in order to really think about how we can engage equity, how we can engage Anti-Racism I think that’s a really interesting kind of way to think about moving forward. As you said, kind of in, into this kind of process of practice as, right? Is that in that process, that talks about when we’re really enable to engage in liberatory practice, that’s when there’s some power let go, and that the people the oppressed are lifted up by. And so we have to start thinking about what that looks like within our institutions.

Keith Edwards:
All right. Love, I want to, we’re going to move towards concluding here in a moment and our last question, but before we get that, you know, I have learned by, by editing books that where I began and where I ended up as the editor is very different. And I learned so much in the process of hearing the voices of the authors. And I know you’ve, you’ve invited other authors in, you’ve both also written chapters. I love to hear from each of you, what sort of like the big aha moment that you had through this process of a year and a half now, plus of writing the book, what really was the thing that, that you learned through the process that, that is grabbing your attention?

Susana Muñoz:
Hmm. There’s a lot of aha moments. I mean, writing a book during a pandemic pandemic/

Keith Edwards:
Politics, insurrections. Yeah.

Susana Muñoz:
I mean, I think, you know, I w I’m grateful that I got to do this along with Lindsay, because I think I was able to learn from her in this process in many ways, but I think, you know, the, the aha moment for me was really about how it’s not just Latin X communities. It’s not just, it’s, it just spans across people of color in terms of the, you know, the racist rhetoric with the Muslim ban. We see that with the, the, the virus has impacted, you know Asians and Asian Americans. And so I think, you know, as, you know, as I, we were editing and reading, I gained much more I guess that understanding of the importance of the theory and the importance of where we should be interrogating these issues that we’re seeing and how interrogating race and racism and white supremacy has to really be at the core of all of our conversations. And, and so I think for me, it was it’s, it was exciting to get to the point of reading, you know, seeing the book and in real life, but also I, you know, understanding that there’s so much more, much, much more work to do as well. So but yeah, that was my

Keith Edwards:
Well, you’re really what I’m hearing that is that the interconnections of struggle, the interconnections between Latin X folks and DACA and Asian and Asian Americans all experiencing this racism, nativism in very different ways to indigenous peoples and indigenous issues. So much interconnectedness here. Lindsay, what were one or two of your aha moments as you went through this process?

Lindsay Pérez Huber:
I think just in terms of like logistics this is my kind of first edited book. And so just to do this work in community with Susana in community with our chapter contributors it was just a, I think an aha moment which isn’t necessarily an aha moment. Like I always knew that this was important right. And doing this work in community really changes the experience. Right. And so more of just something I enjoyed about the process was working with Susana on this and, you know, working in having conversations with our chapter contributors about, you know, their writing and their understanding and their work was really, really important. And just, I mean, just made the work and the process so much better. The second thing I think is just thinking about

Lindsay Pérez Huber:
What you’re saying, Keith, about the hope, right. And possibility that is, is, is there that this book kind of highlights about the intersecting experiences of various communities of color and, and what we’ve seen since it was published, right? The most recent kind of anti-Asian hate that we see happening right now that is also tied into exactly what we’re trying to do in this book to understand and that’s to, to see how right, the experiences of communities of color are so interconnected and that there is some real possibility for collective action and collective change in what we’re seeing in how various communities are being targeted, but also thinking about what are our collective responses, right. And how do we come together to collectively engage in resistance?

Keith Edwards:
I love that the theme of hopers really standing out for me in looking at this book, this is not a book about victimhood. It is about the hurts and pains and the causes, but also about the possibility of the hope about what’s around the corner about what people are doing, how people are resisting. And I think that’s really powerful and that’s exactly what aha moments are. Lindsay. I thought aha moments were when we learned something new, but I learned that aha moments are when someone gives us language for something we’ve known all along. Right. And I love those aha moments. Well, we are running out of time. And as you both know, this podcast is called Student Affairs Now. And we always like to end with the question, what are you thinking troubling or pondering now? So it might be something from the book. It might be something from today’s conversation or something. That’s really just with you in this moment, as we conclude this conversation Susana, what are you with right now?

Susana Muñoz:
Hmm. I, I’m excited for the conversations that will be produced as a result of the book. And so I’m excited to you know, to, to have, you know, leaders and administrators, you know, read it, but I’m pondering also that, you know, the violence still continues and it’s been taxing and to hold all the things that have happened since, you know, at the end of the election, you know? And so I, I so I’m holding all of the folks partic in particular, our Asian-American siblings, you know, in our field holding them near and dear to my heart at the moment.

Lindsay Pérez Huber:
Yeah. I think, you know echoing what Susana is talking about is just recognizing and acknowledging the pain that the Asian-American community is experiencing right now. Something, you know, we’re hearing about things almost every day that are continuing to happen. And, and, and just really, you know recognizing that pain and that hurt that’s being, that’s being caused and perpetrated thinking about, you know, what can we do, I think is a, is another question that, you know I’m continuing, you know, we’re always thinking about, but really there’s some urgency to that in terms of how do we address anti-Asian hate, how do we address anti-Latin X hate. How do we address anti-blackness, which are all questions that institutions are grappling with right now and thinking about, right. Who needs to be at the table right.

Lindsay Pérez Huber:
In these discussions and, and ensuring that in terms of everyday practice and what we do at our institutions, that there’s an opportunity for all of the important stakeholders to be at the table, to make these decisions about how we’re to, how we’re going to disrupt what we see happening. And so that’s something I’ve just been thinking about with some work that I’m, that I’m doing right now at my institution. And, and just kind of being hopeful. I think being hopeful that, you know, in, in all that we do, even if you know, how, no matter how small our sphere, we feel, our sphere of influences are that there’s change to be made.

Keith Edwards:
Yeah. I love, I love and even hope and not a, not a naive hope. And I hope it really recognizes the reality of what is going on, but says that we have some agency to make the world a better place tomorrow than it is today. So that’s powerful. Thank you so much to both of you for being awesome guests today. And thanks for your wonderful book. It’s a great contribution. I learned a lot reading it and in the conversation today, and thank you for centering perspectives that too often are overlooked. So thanks to both of you, to our listeners, you can receive reminders about this and other episodes by subscribing to our Student Affairs Now, newsletter you get that each Wednesday with the latest episode that we’re sharing with you, you can also browse our archives at studentaffairsnow.com, which the marvelous Heather Shea has organized into the ACPA and NASPA professional competencies. Thanks to our sponsors today, LeaderShape and Stylus publishing, please subscribe to the podcast, invite others to subscribe and share on social or leave a five-star review. It really helps conversations like this, reach more folks and build a community so we can continue to make this free for you. Again, I’m Keith Edwards, thanks to our fabulous guests today and to everyone who’s watching and listening, make it a great week. Thank you all.

Book: Why they Hate Us

Blog Post: The Threat of Racist Rhetoric