Wilson Okello:
I think it’s important to note that trauma’s not a personal flaw, right? It’s not a matter of choice so to speak it could be brought on by a series of events that happen to a person, right. Despite the fact that our responses are mostly outside of our control trauma can sometimes lead us to feeling isolated can lead to perhaps shame or again, this notion of a personal failure. And I think part of the work of this collection is hopefully getting at the normalization, right? The fact of trauma, and then hopefully clarifying some of the ways in which it can manifest.

Raechele Pope:
Welcome to Student Affairs NOW the online learning community for student affairs educators, I’m your host Raechele Pope. Today we’re discussing the omnipresence of trauma in the lives of college students. Many students have either experienced trauma before or while in college. It’s critical for student affairs professionals to increase their understanding of trauma and its effect on the mental health and wellbeing of students and the people who serve them. I’m joined today by Tricia Shalka and Wilson Okello, the editors of the newly released trauma informed practice in student affairs multidimensional considerations for care, healing and wellbeing. Student Affairs NOW is the premier podcast and learning community for thousands of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of student affairs and higher education. We hope you’ll find these conversations make a contribution to the field are restorative to the profession. We release new episodes every week on Wednesday. So find us at studentaffairsnow.com on YouTube, iTunes or anywhere you listen to podcasts.

Raechele Pope:
This episode is brought to you by Stylus publishing, visit Styluspub.com and use the promo code SANow for 30% off and free shipping today’s episode is also sponsored by Simplicity. A true partner, Simplicity supports all aspects of student life with technology platforms that empower institutions to make data driven decisions. As I mentioned, I’m your host, Raechele Pope my pronouns are she her hers and I’m broadcasting from Williamsville, New York near the campus of the University of Buffalo, where I serve as the senior associate Dean of faculty and student affairs and the unit diversity officer for the graduate school of education. I’m also an associate professor in the higher education and student affairs programs. UB is situated on the unseated ancestral Homeland of the people, Tricia & Wilson. Thank you for joining me today for this episode of Student Affairs NOW and welcome to the podcast.

Wilson Okello:
Thank you. Thank you for having us.

Raechele Pope:
Yeah. Can you begin by telling us just a bit about you, excuse me, your current role on campus and a bit about your pathway through student affairs and into the work that you do now.

Wilson Okello:
Thank you, Dr. Pope. My name is Wilson Olo pronouns. I, he, him I joined you today from my home in Wilmington, North Carolina Wilmington is located on the traditional territory of the people. And as long served as a side of meeting in exchange among the Cherokee in an effort for me to continually consider place and space. I also need to recognize Wilmington as a multi-generational site of violence and where African ascended people were so traded and subject to the violence of massacre, including, but not exclusive to the Wilmington. Currently I assistant professor here in Wilmington at the University of North Carolina Wilmington. Prior to this, I taught black studies while working on my doctorate at Miami University. Before that I worked in residence life for several years. My work generally is interdisciplinary in nature draws on theories of blackness and black feminist theories to think about knowledge, production and student early adult develop and pertinent to our conversation. I’m really concerned about how theories of blackness black feminist theories, really this sort of fact of being a racialized being might reconfigure understandings of racialized stress and trauma, really working hard to theorize black freedom dreams in this afterlife of slavery. And so really excited to be in conversation with you all.

Raechele Pope:
Good to have you here.

Tricia Shalka:
Well, thanks Raechele and Wilson. It’s great to be in community with both of you today. I’m Tricia Shalka. I use she her pronouns and I’m an assistant professor at the university of Rochester. So I’m joining you today from the ancestral lands of the peoples. So I was, you know, giving a little bit of thought to this, in my journey to where I am now as a professor and studying college student trauma, and really my entry into student affairs is directly connected to where I am. So I was, you know, very similar to many of us in student affairs of having that aha moment as an undergrad and realizing, wow, there’s this field of student affairs. I didn’t know this was a career path and this is a good fit for my talents and what I want to do. But the reason that I discovered that pathway was because of all these student affairs administrators that I’d become very close to.

Tricia Shalka:
And the reason I became very close to many of them was because of trauma. So I was studying abroad as an undergrad in France and ended up in that proverbial wrong place at the wrong time. When I woke in middle of night, realizing that my hotel was on fire and would later realize that it was an arsonist who had started that fire, but all of these amazing administrators back in my campus were just doing things over and above to support me and my family and my friends and community. And so getting to know them over, you know, the weeks and subsequent years after that experience, it really inspired me to want to go into affairs and be able to do for other students what they had done for me. So my role is a little different now than it did in the beginning when I was a student affairs administrator and doing direct support.

Tricia Shalka:
But my motivation is still the same that I’m really interested in understanding what trauma means for college students. You know, I ask questions in terms of what is it like to be a college student who has experienced trauma that means for relationships or identity development, or how students navigate a campus environment. And I’m really trying to understand those questions to help inform practice, to do that kind of support that I started out wanting to do, and really help us think about how do we best support and nurture you know, these experiences for students who have gone through something traumatic.

Raechele Pope:
Well, that is so true, you know, in so many ways that we have our own traumas and we, and we bring, and I know that in your, in your book and the sneak peek that I got at this new newly released this weekend book that you both started by sharing your space of trauma to show that this isn’t unusual, this isn’t the the, maybe some students have trauma, but the, in essence, most many, if not all of us come from a place of trauma or could at least understand trauma and the experience that it has.

Tricia Shalka:
Right?

Raechele Pope:
Thank you for those introductions. So let’s start with the most macro question. You know, you both have talked about trauma, but I want to, I want to back this up a little for aria, for our audience. What is it that you most want our audiences to know about the prevalence and the impact of trauma on our campuses?

Tricia Shalka:
Yeah, well, I think you kind of alluded to this a little bit, Raechele and thinking about the prevalence that many people are impacted by trauma. So the statistics are very clear on this, and I think that informs the kind of work we’re trying to do in a trauma informed system of, you know, not just planning for this, what if trauma happens, but we really have to be operating and thinking as if, as if trauma’s present, because it is, we know that for sure. You know, I think the other pieces that are connected that are important to understand in relation to the prevalence is that trauma doesn’t stay contained. It ripples in many different ways through our communities. So we could certainly have an individual who’s primarily impacted by trauma. We could have a community primarily impacted by trauma, but it doesn’t necessarily stay there.

Tricia Shalka:
So for example, you know, thinking about someone who is experienced something traumatic, maybe they have psychological impacts because of that, or physical impacts whether or not the trauma was physical in nature, but then it also starts to show up in how they’re connecting with others relating to others. So this is how it starts to move through relationships, communities intergenerationally, even plenty of research to indicate how that works as well. And finally, I think I just want to offer for something to keep an eye on is trauma can be very visible or invisible. And within the context of our campus communities, that matters because, you know, maybe we can see some evidence of trauma, maybe a student has experienced something and we’re in a program or an event or a classroom space with them, and they’re triggered to their trauma. And we see something that looks like an anxiety response.

Tricia Shalka:
Maybe that’s the visibility of trauma impact, but there can also be a real invisibility. So, you know, I had this beautiful walk in this morning, gorgeous weather, you know, on a green space thinking about, oh, birds chirping, but maybe for someone who has recently experienced trauma, that’s not the same walk. And maybe that morning walk was more plagued with feeling that the campus is unsafe and thinking about how they have to navigate and, you know, maneuver to really work through these spaces that don’t feel safe to either self or integrity. So there can be a lot of these visible and invisible pieces of what we’re talking about today.

Raechele Pope:
Sure.

Wilson Okello:
Yeah. I think that notion that trauma is present and various from person to person is really one of the key takeaways for us primarily there, but in can be narrated differently, I think by individuals, social locations or identities, right. It can play out emotionally, physically, spiritually, their spatial lives as atrition has written about. I think it’s important to note that trauma’s not a personal flaw, right? It’s not a matter of choice so to speak it could be brought on by a series of events that happen to a person, right. Despite the fact that our responses are mostly outside of our control trauma can sometimes lead us to feeling isolated can lead to perhaps shame or again, this notion of a personal failure. And I think part of the work of this collection is hopefully getting at the normalization, right?

Wilson Okello:
The fact of trauma, and then hopefully clarifying some of the ways in which it can manifest. Right. and how we might account for in our everyday practice, our everyday pedagogy in our work with students. Also I think just understanding again, the range range of scenes range of experiences that account for can account for trauma, I think are really important that can interrupt our routine occurrences in the flow of our lives in a number of different ways, right. One scene may look like terror. One might look like heartache. One might look like devastation, right. But thinking about these multiple ways, right. As a lens for our work, I think it only strengthens strengthens our practice and I think creates a hopefully in affirming space where students can experience themselves in more holistic ways. Right. So ,

Raechele Pope:
Yeah. You know, that’s, it’s really that’s such a broad understanding and it helps us to really see that there isn’t a one size fits all trauma, right. Or a one size response, because some of the things that I often see or experience is that we are so responsive as a, as a people, as a community, as a higher ed community. We’re so responsive in the moment of the crisis, right. We’re there for everyone. And, but then we think next week they should be over it or next month they should be over it or, you know, and so that, that’s when that whole flaw human that’s a human flaw in your part, because by now you should be done with that, no matter what the trauma was, but we have this really I don’t know, instant rice approach to pain and, and trauma, and don’t make me uncomfortable with it. So I really appreciate how you helped our readers, see our, our listeners see how broad this was and your readers, quite frankly. So what I want to, I want to move this to our role, our roles in student affairs and higher education place us squarely in the role of facilitating student learning and development where you were, you know, talking about that Wilson. And so I’m, I’m wondering how exactly does trauma affect student learning and development? Do we know that yet?

Wilson Okello:
I think so. I think so. And you know, I think for me, and we can sort of see it play out on least four different levels. Right. I think there’s an epistemic or sort of this cognitive of level. I think there’s an ontological, if we think about sort of this question of being and, and how we experience reality, if we’re thinking about questions of the intrapersonal, right. The, who am I, and then the relational that you talked about also, I think, are become really important. So if we think about the epidemic, for example, right, we think about the force of memory and how it comes to bear are on the present, right. Such that individuals are reliving or potentially reliving these sort of experiences or an event over and over the body, right. Takes center agents in some ways, right.

Wilson Okello:
And can exact the trauma can exact the toll on the mind, the body, right? The generally how we, how we feel you right in our bodies. We need to remember that the body has a memory as, as authors have written about right. It’s stores, experiences, sights, and sounds. And we live in our body as humans. Right. And so our response to the world is always in and through the body. And so where trauma happens, it’s not just on a cognitive level, but always informing and always playing out in our bodies. Right. The question of who am I, the sort of intro person as I think about self authorship, for example, but it can keep individuals in a constant state of survival, right? It leaves no room for or maybe closes us off to care or love because I think the body, and, and we can be really engaged in these experiences of defending ourselves right. Against invisible or unknown threats. The relational, I think about the ways in which it can it can, again, enclose us, it can cut us off from relationships. It can leave us feeling fatigue, eat and weary. Yeah. And really, again kind of break with some of those, the bonds, right. Keep us from connecting with others, I think in really meaningful ways. And so on those particular four levels are places that we might begin to consider the place of trauma and student development and learning .

Tricia Shalka:
Yeah. I really want to kind of underscore what Wilson is mentioning around the body, because I think this is a piece we sometimes forget in higher education, we’re trapped in this world that is highly and hyper cognitive, and we forget how much wisdom exists in the body. And trauma is really a place where we are acutely reminded of that. You know, I mentioned earlier that whether or not trauma is physical in nature can show up in the body. And, and that is exactly what we’re talking about here, that there is information and knowledge through the body, not just through the mind. So I really want to underscore that. You know, I think in taking this even more tangible, I think about this in a couple of, of different dimensions of this learning and development piece and trauma for us in student affairs, there is this initial piece of how does trauma potentially complicate or interact with a student’s capacity to engage, engage in some of these meaningful practices that we have constructed in college environments to promote learning, to promote development.

Tricia Shalka:
And then there’s a secondary piece that’s that direct. Okay. And how does trauma actually impact development and learning? So to the former, I want to actually offer an example because it’s a really poignant one from one of my past participants Amira. So Amira identifies as a Muslim woman. She is a college student, experienced a variety of a constellation and of traumatic experiences. So some were much more pervasive and insidious in nature. She experienced body shaming. She experienced a lot of discrimination because of her identity as a Muslim woman on her college campus. So those were the pervasive forms. She also had some event based forms of trauma. So one of these included while walking home one night to her car, a group of men came over acosted her and ultimately tore off her hijab. So for Amira, her college campus became a battleground to navigate after trauma.

Tricia Shalka:
And so one specific example, there are many, but one that I’ll offer is her decision about going to class. So any day she was going to class, she was already planning her entire day to be able to arrive early for class. And part of that was because she needed to have a seat with her back against a wall. That was the only place she could feel, even remotely comfortable and safe to not have her hijab ripped off again, potentially. But if she got to class and she was a little late, or, you know, somebody was already sitting in that seat, she’d have to make a decision and figure out if she was gonna negotiate for that seat. And we’ve all been in college. We know that this would actually be pretty awkward and be hard to do on most days, especially if you don’t know a lot of people in your class.

Tricia Shalka:
So some days Amira would just choose to not go to class. So, you know, here’s this example of exactly what we want students to be present for and engaging these opportunities. And can’t because of trauma, you know, to that other piece of how does trauma directly impact development and learning. There’s a lot of research from child development where we know that there are these direct ways that our neurology gets changed because of trauma. So we can see that direct link but more specifically in our arena and student affairs, I’ve done some work around identity development and trauma where I’ve seen that students end up having these almost additional developmental tasks to confront because of trauma. So, you know, sort of this over and above, and sometimes that results in more difficulty and strain and maybe learning is compromised or development is compromised, but sometimes it can also mean that having to wrestle and tackle these additional tasks can produce learning can produce development. So we’ve seen this in some of Jim Barber’s work around long strides towards self authorship where they’ve found, you know, these experiences that are traumatic or tragedy as they name them actually resulted, in rapid self authorship. , growth. We see this in psychological literature around post traumatic growth, but we can have this both and, you know, it can impact in really negative ways, but there can also be some potential of what it means to wrestle with these difficulties.

Raechele Pope:
Right. I’m often I think about that and it reminds me of when I was trying to I was teaching a course in student development several years back, and I was trying to talk about the experience of marginalized students. And of course they’re going through very similar developmental markers and stages, if you will. But there’s something like this going on at the same time. Yeah. So there’s all of this other, no. And so you’re still, you’re trying to learn and yet, because of these other impacts or because of these other experiences it’s you’re do you’re focusing even more you’re spending more attention, even focusing, you know, I’m trying to get focused because of this other stuff. And so it sort of reminded me of what you were saying about the effect that trauma can have, and yes, I might come out the other end stronger, right. Or having developed something at a quicker pace, but at the same time, there’s a cost to that. Right. And perhaps this is what you were both talking about is the physical cost of that. The body cost cost of those

Tricia Shalka:
And I think the point you’re raising too, is something that Wilson and I are really attentive to in this volume in discussing that we can’t talk about trauma without simultaneously talking about systems of power depression because they’re very often where trauma originates or they amplify and make trauma a lot worse.

Raechele Pope:
Yeah. So yeah, I mean, that’s so powerful. It almost makes me want to stop right there and have a whole other conversation about that. But I want to, I want to keep starting at the beginning so that we can bring everybody to the stage to the same place and then have a discussion, another discussion. But, so what exactly would trauma informed practice in student affairs context in the student affairs context? What is trauma informed practice and how is it different than our current practice?

Tricia Shalka:
Yeah.

Tricia Shalka:
Yeah. That’s such a great question. Because I think in the best case scenario, really good student affairs practice has a lot of congruence and synergy with what we’re asking of trauma informed practice and at the same time there’s nuance. So in a nutshell, what we’re trying to do with trauma informed practice is we’re taking information, knowledge about trauma traumatization and using that to very actively and intentionally inform our educational practices and policies and interactions. But there’s no one size fits all. We’ve already kind of talked about that, alluded to that already today. So Wilson and I are often, you know, sort of advocating for trauma informed practices and sort of this multiplicity, because there can be a lot of difference in different needs in different communities. But some of the features that are probably part of most trauma-informed approaches and emphasis on relationships.

Tricia Shalka:
So we know that relationships, empathetic relationships are a really key place where healing and recuperation can happen after trauma. So, you know, having an emphasis on, you know, making sure that every student on our campus has a touchpoint has a connection with a faculty member or staff member, not just that we’re focusing on relationships in the aftermath of trauma or instrumental ways where we need to build a relationship and a connection to achieve a purpose, but thinking about connected kinds of campuses very tightly connected to that then is focusing on an equity mindset and really working to dismantle these systems of power and oppression that are, again, as we just talked about furthering trauma, you know, creating trauma it’s also being attentive to avoiding retraumatization. So sometimes we like to imagine that trauma happens out there outside of our campuses. But the reality is we’re creating our own traumas within college communities. So really, you know, taking a hard look at that using these trauma form lenses to be able to sort of analyze our practices and our policies to look for the places that we are, making things a lot worse and creating trauma for students ourselves.

Wilson Okello:
I think, I think all, all of that is really, really well said. I think the social of relation I want to sort of expand out and just sort of think about communities, right. And not just community within higher education spaces, but what does it look like to, to pull in or to connect our work to communities outside of higher education? I think in many ways higher education is still working up to a community orientation that a lot of other spaces have already figured out about what it means to think about healing, what it means to think about joy, what it means to think about actually sort of sitting with individuals, right? This is all work I think we espoused to do. And you know, to just point in a if we had it in our sort of if it was working perfectly, right, it would largely be congruent with what we’re calling for thinking about with trauma informed work, but we do have work to do right.

Wilson Okello:
And so what can we draw on, how can we pull in or think with other communities that I think are also doing this work really well? I think it’s important to think about trauma informed practice. This is as sustained work, right. We talked earlier about this notion as some of our recognizing the imediacy of our work sometimes calls on us to respond and to, and then to move on to whatever the next situation or what we’re casting as a problem might be. But what does it look like to to engage relationally in ways that say, I am interested in journeying with you throughout this process once I know, right. And let’s make the assumption that even if I don’t know, I want to engage in relationship such that our this is ongoing right. And sustained, and that you feel this this continuous sort of connection to, and then finally, I would think about as we push equity work, right. Really getting that sense of what that means, but thinking about a power conscious approach to our, to our work. Right. thinking about not just what we perceive as the gaps, but what are our students telling us about the gaps and what we might be missing in terms of their experiences on campus could also be really helpful.

Tricia Shalka:
Yeah. It’s making me think of wanting to offer an example of what it is not. And it’s an example that is very widespread. I think we do this exact example in many ways, but another one of my past research participants, she was identified as a low SES student was on a scholarship at her university. And part way through her sophomore year was sexually assaulted. So unsurprisingly her grades really started to suffer after that, if she was, you know, confronting her assault and really trying to make meaning and make sense of what had happened, but this scholarship was tied to her GPA. And so as her grades started to drop, she knew that this scholarship was in jeopardy. So she had a possibility of what to do. And it was that her institution gave her this to appeal by writing an essay to her financial aid office, that detailed why her grades had dropped what had happened.

Tricia Shalka:
So, you know, you can probably already start to wheels turn, imagine how this went. But as SJ was describing this to me, she was really talking about writing this very personal detailed essay to nameless faceless people. She didn’t know who these people were on the financial aid and she was having to bear her soul and the way she was describing it to me very much paralleled in my mind, at least the way she’d already been violated, this was a new violation, a new re-traumatization, but that’s the kind of policy that we have in so many forms across our campuses of, okay, we’ll help you retain this, but tell us what happened. It can be very. So really bringing this trauma lens then is something that could catch that kind of a policy or at least give us the opportunity to think about, are there alternatives or what might this mean for a student who has experienced a particular kind of trauma to go through this process?

Raechele Pope:
yeah, that such a, a reminder, because I was, so I, I thought about this in the beginning of your question and your response Tricia, when you said there’s actually a lot of congruence between good student affairs practice and trauma informed practice, and you’re absolutely right, but good student affairs practice would say, yeah, have students write an appeal, they get a chance to write an appeal to a situation like this. The trauma informed practice would also say maybe we should have some options about how they do this appeal. And I think that that’s what that we miss and that we get into, but what a great example,

Wilson Okello:
, ,

Raechele Pope:
So you, you we’ve mentioned power, and we mentioned this relational thing, and we mentioned involving communities and looking at this through an equity lens, and I want to focus this on racial trauma for, for just a moment. What’s the impact of racial trauma on the ability of students of color, to succeed and to thrive on our campuses, that being one of those places, right. Where we’re seeing that this can happen before they get to campus. And we all know that it also happens on campus so, you know, I want to talk about that impact for a moment

Wilson Okello:
you know, such an important such an important question. And I think as we grapple with equity we need to, we need to think about the, the prevalence of racism in our society and the ways that plays out on our college campuses. I think a lot with Hartman’s work and what she calls the afterlife of slavery, right. Which talks about the insidious nature of enslavement and the ways it’s still at work. Right. And present and understanding how our society is structured. Right. And so it structures which is talking particularly about black people. But if we think about the ways in which people of color are positioned in an antagonist or have an antagonistic relationship with society we need to consider how those things are always and already playing out in their lives.

Wilson Okello:
Right. Which is to say that the effects are still affecting them. Right. as they, as they move into and on our campuses. I talk a bit about in my chapter a, a young woman who was videotaping the George Floyd William’s murder and in many ways her positioning as right there. Right. And sort of be bearing witness to this trauma is something that opened up the world, right. It allowed the world to kind of see what was happening, but I talked particularly about how that experience is gonna live with her. Right and what becomes our responsibility for accounting for the ways in which that racial trauma, right? The, the presence of it right. Of seeing it play out in our daily lives how that how do we attend to that on our college campuses?

Wilson Okello:
And so, in terms of what it means for our success, or ability to thrive, we need to consider that racial trauma is can be internalized, right. It can be internalized, and it can sort of show up as trauma trauma, retentions, right. Which means it has a particular ways of showing up in our lives. It can as we talked about earlier, can, can impact how we not only sort of think about ourselves, but can impact our relationships as well and how we connect with others. How we think about notions of community and really attempt to think about our place on college campuses writ large. And so the connection if you know, that I’m attempting to, to, to sort of make here is that we can’t divorce racism anti-blackness that sort of plays out in the public sphere from the ways in which it is always and already playing out in our college campuses and in the lives of our students each and every day and those things, right.

Wilson Okello:
We should, we should think about those things as always and already showing up in the classroom, showing up in our residence hall, showing up in the interactions that we have with students and really their capacity to move through our environment or through the educational environment.

Tricia Shalka:
Yeah.

Raechele Pope:
Yeah.

Tricia Shalka:
Yeah. This, you know, I’m, I’m thinking about so many things in relation to what Wilson is, is discussing. But I think it’s that assuming as if is just so important and something we’re really trying to make a constant refer here. And I think in the case of racial trauma in particular, this is a really key place for us to think about a both. And because we need to be supporting individual students who may be experiencing racial trauma, you know, in the same way that the impacts and aftermath may be comparable to any number of traumas. And this is really that place where we need to be attentive to the systems, too. Because this is same as, you know, a car accident that happens that we can’t prevent that there’s nothing we can do about that. You know, this is a form of trauma that we can very much do something about there’s a way for racial trauma not to happen.

Tricia Shalka:
And that is us focusing on working on, you know, these anti-racist and decolonial kind of practices. But there’s also an element to racial trauma in particular that I think amplifies what is going on sometimes for students, which is that there’s a, a silence and even further invisibility around racial trauma in the sense that there are many communities that still do not accept racial trauma as a form of trauma. You know, this is still a bait in some psychological communities. So recognizing, you know, what that means then for an individual student, who’s kind of, you know, trapped in the, the web of all of these fact, there’s all of these external factors that are coming to play for an individual student experience, what a person may be carrying with them and this larger system that is amplifying that amplifying that effect.

Raechele Pope:
I think it’s so important to identify racial trauma in this way, to talk about racial trauma in this way, and to understand the effects and what we can and should be doing to ameliorate some of that, that situation and to support our students. And and there are other groups who I’m looking at right now on campus, who are also experiencing some of the some very similar things, some other marginalized students, you know, I’m thinking of LGBTQ students who are experiencing those kinds of issues very differently, but coming from the of power and the systems nature of that. And I mentioned that also, because right now campuses are responding, you know, some of the different states rules about what you can say, what what words you’re not allowed to say, what’s not allowed to be talked on campus, or, you know, enacting policies, you know, particularly around trans students that are, are doing these things.

Raechele Pope:
And then I think about how the multiple identities some of our students have. And so it’s, it continues to be multiplied. So I think it’s important for us to look at this, particularly in terms of racial trauma, particularly in, in terms of anti-black trauma, and, and this is one of those both, and, and to keep in mind that there are other students who are experiencing this and not enough. So all people all lives matter, but really in terms of, and this individual is having some experiences as well. Yeah, I mean, I think there’s so much more there to say that’s really with the kinds of political discussions that we’re having right now, the kinds of policies that are being instituted, that I don’t see our lesson of trauma anywhere in the near future, you know, which is why our practice has to, has to shift and change. This might be some of that time to do some of that dream building. Right. And that is how would our campuses be different if our student affairs practice was trauma informed, what would it look like? How would it be different? And how might that go about helping particular students, faculty, and our staff who are experiencing this? Yeah.

Tricia Shalka:
I love that dreaming potential. You know, this is actually a question I dream and think about a lot, because I like to do a thought exercise of what would it feel like to work in a truly trauma informed organization? What would it feel like to truly study in that kind of a organization? And it would be really powerful because certainly an aspect of trauma informed work is yes, educating people about trauma and providing resources for those primarily impacted by trauma, but it can benefit everyone in a community. This is not just about those who have been impacted by trauma. So there is, there’s a metaphor for trauma that I, I really love as of late it’s from Dr. he is a physician and author from Canada. He’s done work in a lot of different areas, ADHD addiction, but more recently, very focused in the trauma space.

Tricia Shalka:
And he talks about trauma as being a wound and a wound that some of it is still open and exposed. And some of it is scar tissue. So the open exposed wound part, he talks about, you know, when you touch that it hurts, right? It triggers that pain response, you feel the pain again, and that’s a little bit of what can happen after trauma that, you know, we operate at these higher baseline stress levels. We’re a little bit more reactive to things in our environment as a result. But part of that other piece of the metaphor, the scar tissue is that scar tissue is kind of hardened and inflexible. And that’s the other component of what happens after trauma that we may have to put armor around ourselves to feel safe and to feel supported again in the world. And I love this metaphor because it starts to describe what can happen in communities and happen in campus environments.

Tricia Shalka:
So, you know, in a meeting or in an interaction with students, and maybe we have that snap judgment of imagining, oh, they’re overreacting quote unquote, right? And sometimes what we are labeling and naming is overreacting is a very normal response. If you feel threatened in the world, if you’ve experienced trauma, if you feel unsafe in the world, but that means a whole bunch of different things of what happens in an isolated decision we’ve made about another person and how that travels and, you know, through meetings or through interaction with students. And similarly, you know, we sometimes make these snap judgements about, oh, this person seems kind of aloof or hardened in some way. And again, maybe there’s more going on there, but what happens when we don’t really slow down that difference between the stimulus and our response to it. So something I like to talk about at the end of trauma form presentations is really introducing this.

Tricia Shalka:
If there’s nothing else we do, let’s get in the habit of asking this question of what else might be going on . And part of that is leaving space for the possibility that trauma’s present. But the other part of it is because it’s a practice that encourages us to do something in higher ed that we don’t know how to do, which is to pause, to slow down. And I think that’s a really important piece. So when I imagine what does a trauma informed organization look like? It is that pausing it is that space for grace and holding each other with humanity. And that seems like a really amazing culture to be a part of.

Speaker 5:
Yeah,

Wilson Okello:
Sounds like a beautiful place to work and I really appreciate the point around grace and what else might be going on what else might we consider for students? For me, it’s a, it’s a different type of presence, right? It’s a different way of sort of being present with students, which is to say that if we are committed to journey with you, right, then we are committed to all the ways, everything that, that means, right. All of the, the ways in which that might manifest and seeing each other as, as full individuals, right. And as full individuals, again, capable and you know allowed right. Giving us, giving ourselves, giving each other permission to to show up in these sort of multiple ways. Right. And I think there’s something really beautiful about this notion of grace this notion of presence around considering healing as the the goal, right?

Wilson Okello:
The idea that we’re working toward and not necessarily just sort of a care center. Right. Which I think is something we can and consider. Right. We should consider what care looks like, but what are the Inre, what, what are, what are we working to? What does the idea of healing actually look like? But to Patricia’s point, what does also feel like, right. And so a lot of my work is attempting to sort of think through embodiment and student development theory and, and bringing the body back into common. Right. Moving us away from just sort of a mind orientation, but how do we account for the body in you know, in the wellness center, how are we accounting for the body in residence life, right? How are we accounting for the body in adjudication, right? How are we sort of thinking about the holistic right as the mental, the emotional, the spiritual the spatial. And so again, the social presence I think, is, is something that’s really, really sort of standing out to me as a place that I dream of. And I would hope that we might be able to dream of together.

Raechele Pope:
yeah. Yeah. That makes me think of, when you talk about bringing the body back into this and, and allowing this grace, I remember seeing a, I don’t know if it was a news story or a documentary about a elementary or a middle school setting where, you know, students were having trauma around them and they were bringing it into the school, of course, cause they were bringing themselves into school and they spent some time. Then what they, one of the interventions they had was that they started teaching students to meditate, to pay attention to what they were feeling and what they were coming into school feeling, essentially giving that pause, you know, that that Tricia was talking about and involving the body that you were talking about and saying, we are going to normalize, taking time to center on what we’re feeling to being able to to bring it to our consciousness and then how it’s affecting us. And I thought, wow, that’s so powerful teaching young students to pause. And to say, the reason I’m acting this way right now is because I’m angry or because I’m hurt or because I’m scared and getting into that and then being able to ask for and share what you need. And I thought that was really, yeah. Really powerful.

Wilson Okello:
I think that’s a, that’s a really important point, you know, this, this notion of naming and allowing individuals to, to literally wrap their, their tongues around language of affect, I think is, is so important. Right. And even as you were talking, feels still so rare in the work that we do. Right. And so what does it mean to you know, as I’m thinking back to your question about racial trauma, even then the ways in which minoritized students are experiencing trauma all, all the time, and what ways are we giving folks opportunities to name how do you’re feeling, how they’re experiencing the campus environment beyond sort of just our assumptions about it. Right. so. So I just wanted to sort of underscore that, that particular point.

Raechele Pope:
No, I appreciate that, you know, Tricia Wilson, as I look at the clock, believe it or not, we’re just about out of time and I just want to say I want to give you just a, just a quick minute or two to say, you know, something else that we need to know, what are your final thoughts, something else that you want our listeners to walk away with.

Wilson Okello:
You know, I think so much is of what we’re thinking about in this particular moment is again, around the normalization of, of trauma. Right? And so so, so again, I want to draw it to, to the body, right. I really want us to sort of think about how this sort of manifests more than just a thinking and, or a cognitive endeavor, but what is happening to the, the psychic the spirit self, right. And for us to really think about healing centric work as something that we have the capacity to to begin to imagine and to to really sort of inform our work moving forward.

Tricia Shalka:
Yeah. I love, I love that premise of the healing centered, you know, and it just, I, I hope, you know, we are living through these multiple pandemics right now. I hope that we actually take this seriously, that these lessons we could have learned, we actually do something with, and I think that’s a potential that we can, you know, thinking about these healing centric organizations, thinking about what it would mean to be an organization that is focused on wellness, coming from a place of you know, wellness centered decision making. So this is really, you know, this is our time and I hope that we can in these micro macro ways really do something with that.

Raechele Pope:
Yeah. Yeah. I hope so too. I hope it isn’t squandered. Yeah. So Tricia & Wilson, I am so, so grateful for your time and your contributions to not only this conversation, but to your important contribution to our field. I just can’t wait to get my hands on the book. I got an early copy, so I was, you know, very excited to see what was gonna be there, but now I want to really get my hands on it and really dig in. I know this episode is gonna be prepared and ready for our audience, and it doesn’t happen by magic. So I want to send a heartfelt appreciation to the amazing and unflappable, Nat Ambrosey, who does our behind the seams productions that thanks, Nat, if you are listening today and you’re not already receiving our weekly newsletter, please visit our website at studentaffairsnow.com and scroll to the bottom of the homepage to add your email to our MailChimp list.

Raechele Pope:
And while you’re there, check out our archives. If you found this conversation helpful, please share it on your social media platforms and share it with your colleagues and your students. Please subscribe to the podcast, invite others to subscribe, share on social media or leave a five star review. It really helps conversations like this reach more folks and build a learning community. Finally, I want to give a shout out to our sponsors. We really appreciate your support. Stylus is proud to be a sponsor for the student affairs. Now podcast browse their student affairs, diversity and professional development titles at Styluspub.com. Use promo code SANow for 30% off all books plus free shipping, you can also find Stylus on Facebook. Youtube, Instagram LinkedIn and Twitter @Stylus pub simplicity is the global leader in student services, technology platforms with state of the art technology that empowers institutions to make data driven decisions specific to their goals. A true partner to the institution. Simplicity supports all ask effects of student life, including, but not limited to career services and development student conduct and wellbeing, student success and accessibility services to learn more, visit simplicity.com or connect with simplicity via Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.

Raechele Pope:
Please take a moment also to visit our website and click on the sponsors link to learn more again, I’m Raechele Pope. Thanks again to Tricia and Wilson and to everyone who is watching and listening as Gandhi reminds us, let’s be the change that we want to see in the world. We can help reduce or respond to trauma.

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trauma. Viking.  

Menakem, R. (2017). My grandmother’s hands: Racialized trauma and the pathway to mending 

our hearts and bodies. Central Recovery Press.  

Venet, A. S. (2021). Equity-centered trauma-informed education. W. W. Norton & Company.

Shalka, T. R. (2015). Toward a trauma-informed practice: What educators need to know. About 

Campus, 20(5). 21-27. https://doi.org/10.1002/abc.21217Shalka, T. R. (forthcoming May/June 2022). Nurturing a trauma-informed student affairs division. About Campus.