Lisa Gerber
I’m like thinking on the fly here, because, first of all, what is a story, even, which is pretty broad. Stories are, you know, what a story is, is a pretty broad idea. I think it’s more than just a chronology of events. And so when you ask a question, I think a lot of the times, the default is to just share a chronology of events. And so a history is not a story. Something actually has to happen. So maybe there’s a problem or a transformation or a pivot or a lesson learned or something along the way. So I always like to kind of start a story idea with the moment, and then the story kind of it gets built around that moment, right? So, like with story, it started with, you know, people are approaching her and sharing their own story of rejection like that was a really interesting turn, an unexpected turn of events that created a good story.

Keith Edwards
Welcome to Student Affairs NOW I’m your host. Keith Edwards, today, I’m joined by Lisa Gerber, who’s the author of her new book, The Power of Story. Lisa is a Story Strategist and communications expert who works with purpose driven leaders to help them communicate, to connect through storytelling. Leaders build trust, alignment and understanding. She helps leaders develop a storytelling habit and increase their influence. I’m really excited to learn from Lisa and her book, The Power of a story. I’m especially excited because we’re going to be launching a new format for Student Affairs now, episodes called Here’s the Story that will be short episodes that will feature one person and a great story. I’m joined today by Neil Golemo, who will be one of our hosts for this new format. Today’s conversation will be a beautiful entry point for those episodes. More from Neil and this new format here, in a little bit, Student Affairs NOW is the premier podcast and online learning community for 1000s of us who work in alongside or adjacent in the field of higher education and student affairs. We release new episodes every weekday, every week on Wednesdays, find details about this episode or browse our archives at studentaffairsnow.com This episode is sponsored by Evolve. Evolve helps senior leaders release fear, gain courage and take action for Transformative Leadership through a personalized cohort based virtual learning experience. And today’s episode is also sponsored by Symplicity, a true partner. Symplicity supports all aspects of student life with technology platforms that empower institutions to make data driven decisions. As I mentioned, I’m your host, Keith Edwards, my pronouns are he, him, his. I’m a speaker, author and coach, helping higher ed leaders and organizations Empower better tomorrows through better leadership, learning and equity. You can find out more about me at Keith edwards.com and I’m recording this from my home in Minneapolis, Minnesota, at the intersections of the ancestral homelands of both the Dakota and the Ojibwe peoples. We’ve got Lisa and Neil here today. Anil, we’re going to begin by you just tell us a bit about you and a bit about here’s the story, and we’ll hear a little bit more about it in a little bit.

Neil E. Golemo
Lou howdy from I’m coming at you from down here in Galveston, Sunny Galveston. And about me, I’m just a simple Country Director of Campus Living and Learning with a dream Keith, and that dream is to be the last white guy I know without a podcast. So, so, yeah, so we’re really excited about, here’s the story. It’ll be me JT Snipes and Helena Gardner, if you know him, you know. And, yeah, and basically, we’re going to try and tell the story of the lived experiences of folks in higher education, um, especially in student affairs, because what we do is really, really interesting, but I don’t know how many people know about it, so we’re going to try and fix that a little bit. Yeah,

Keith Edwards
I’m really excited you shared this dream over dinner that we were having in New Orleans at an ACPA conference, and I thought it was such a good idea. And then a long time later, I was like, We should do that for Student Affairs now. So thanks for sharing your idea and moving it forward to making happen. I’m really excited that the folks you’ll be bringing in and hosting giving an opportunity to share their stories. I think that’ll be really great. And JT and Helena joining us as well. And part of that is I was thinking about this new format for here’s the story, and then also learning about my friend Lisa Gerber’s new book, The Power of Story, and thought, Oh, well, this is a great fit. Lisa can help us prepare people to tell their stories and share their stories and make them good stories, and think about the the influence of stories. And I think that’s something that higher ed you really use. And so I’m really glad you’re here to share about your book. I think it’s something that can be really useful for higher ed leaders as we get out there and share our stories, but also for the podcast and for future guests as well. So Lisa, why don’t you tell us a little bit about you, about your work and about your book?

Lisa Gerber
Sure. Thanks, Keith, hi everyone. So I am coming to you from snowy Sand Point, Idaho, very different from what Neil has in Galveston, Texas, I imagine in my happy place for sure. And I work with, I work with deeply knowledgeable people, people who know a lot about their subject matter but maybe have a hard time talking about it in a way that gets others to understand and care about it, and I help them become more influential community. Educators through the use of storytelling. Because, as we all know, stories are something that bring people together, that help us connect around a subject matter, a topic, and help us understand and create trust. So yeah, I do that through one to one mentoring, through like corporate or nonprofit workshops for teams to help them, you know, solve a communications problem through storytelling. And I speak at conferences on the topic as well on power story. And here, I guess I should kind of flash the cover, yeah, just for the visual for those who are watching, yeah. So I you know what I find with those of us who are so immersed and so knowledgeable about the work that we do, especially in like really technically specific fields, is that we do struggle to talk about it in a way that gets others to care about it. And so I help bridge that gap through storytelling.

Keith Edwards
I think this is so useful, because I think sometimes in higher ed we let others tell our story for us rather than telling our own story, and it leads to a lot of misunderstanding and undervaluing, and then we complain about the story that’s out there, when we’ve abdicated our leadership around telling folks that. And so I guess I have, I have two questions for you, Lisa, one is the why question, yeah, and then the other is the how question. So the first question is, as as you think about leaders and the power of storytelling. Why is storytelling such a critical skill for leaders and educators to develop, and why is it such? Why is it such an important capacity? Yeah,

Lisa Gerber
can I first address what you just said about abdicating leadership and telling a story? It’s so interesting that you just mentioned that because I literally just wrote, I just published a newsletter yesterday called, if not you, then who? And it was really on the very topic of telling our own story. I had a woman in a workshop last month raise her hand when she was practicing her story with someone and saying that she felt like she was being braggy and sharing the story. And it just it, and really interesting conversation sort of ensued around that. And you know, if we don’t tell our own story, then who will and just having control over the narrative, because when others tell the story, you know, it’s maybe not as generous of a story as we would like. So it’s really important, and I’m glad you brought that up. Okay, okay. So now the why storytelling is so important, and I’d like to start with a story.

Keith Edwards
If I was hoping you would, I was hoping you would, please, thank you.

Lisa Gerber
So I have a client who’s the leader of a nonprofit, and she’s hosting a golf tournament fundraiser earlier this year. People fly in from around the country to participate in in this event, and at that evening, at the cocktail party, she was tasked with making a presentation which was asking for money, but also thanking the donor, thanking the sponsors for being there. So it wasn’t a very compelling message, necessarily, and she knew that she needed to lead with the story. She shared this with me after the fact. Now, just a little more context, the event was themed as a tailgate party, and so she everyone was dressed up as different, you know, parts of a tailgate party, she was a cheerleader, and when she started her presentation, she shared with the audience that she was had been rejected in high school for cheerleading squad twice on two different occasions, and how happy she was on this one day of only for one day to be able to live out her dream to be a cheerleader, and everyone in the room, you know, it didn’t really have anything to do with the topic at hand, but it was a little bit of a vulnerability moment, right? It was a little bit of a personal connection moment. Everyone in the room chuckled, and then she went on with the message she had to deliver. But what happened afterwards was people came up to her one by one after the presentation, and they shared their own stories of rejection with her. It was like this unexpected moment. And I love I love this story because it highlights the impact we tell stories in many, many different ways, right? This was a personal one, or could be an organizational one. There are lots of different reasons and ways that we share a story, but you can see with this example how it opened a door to a bigger conversation that led to a better relationship. Right? And it’s not like it was this life altering story. I think a lot of people are hesitant about sharing their story because they think that it’s not important enough or big enough. And that’s not what this is about. It’s about opening those doors and creating these connections and building better relationships. And it’s so interesting that in her sharing her story, she was putting out this implicit invitation for others to share theirs, right? And so it is. It’s about creating and so to tie this into why it’s so important is that in this day and age, when it’s so hard to get attention, it’s so hard to get understanding, which is the first step to really anything, to influencing action, to everything else that we’re trying to create, the storytelling is the piece that bridges that gap. And it sort of when you’re trying to reach your stakeholders and you get into a storytelling habit such as this, over time, it shifts people from thinking about you in a very rational way to an emotional way. And that’s a big shift that we want to get our stakeholders to become really emotionally attached to us. And as I said, People fly in from around the country to attend that event. They don’t have to do that, but it is those relationships that bring them back over and over again. And she raises hundreds of 1000s of dollars through that event as well. So it definitely drives impact. And I think it’s a beautiful illustration of why storytelling is so important right now. Yeah,

Keith Edwards
I do too. And you’re just telling that story about a story, and I got teary hearing the story about a story. So that’s about the power of a story. Just listening to that because it’s relatable. You identify with it. I was never rejected as a cheerleader, but I was rejected for other things. So I’m putting myself in the story, and now sudden she feels like, Oh, we’ve had a shared experience, and I want to connect. It also takes some of the pressure off this. Thank you for your donations, and please give us more, right? It just puts context. And I imagine that story. I don’t know what the actual length of the story was, but it, gosh, it could have been 30 seconds.

Lisa Gerber
It was, I think it was under two minutes for sure, yeah, until the

Keith Edwards
whole thing. And so it doesn’t have to be an 18 minute TED talk or an hour no keynote, just a short little thing. And as you’re sharing the same thing about all the different ways that student affairs folks could use story to connect with families in an admissions visit, or telling the story of a student’s transformation while visiting a high school, or telling a story in doing international recruitment or with fundraising or with athletic recruitment, or leading a leadership Workshop, one of my all time favorite meetings when I was at Macalester College was I had, it was a giveaway sort of summer meeting. I thought, let’s just do something fun. And I asked everyone to bring one story of student transformation. And the 14 of us went around and we didn’t make it through the third story before we were all sobbing. And just like it was incredible, and it was so powerful, and we decided to have the same meeting a month later, and we invited all the admissions folks to hear these stories. And the director admission says we’re gonna have to completely change the on campus tour. We’re gonna have to change our because our stories are about they’re about 20 to 30 years old, and your stories are Ural, and we need to be telling more relevant stories along the way, and they can just get so powerful.

Lisa Gerber
Yeah, you know, at the end of my workshops, we do an hour and a half of, you know, going around and sharing stories, and it’s to help the participants hone their craft, but the unintended consequence always is this level of connection that happens just by each and every one sharing their stories. It’s really phenomenal to your point that it often evokes tears. Often it’s amazing. They’re always this beautiful experience.

Neil E. Golemo
And, yeah, sorry I was gonna say you guys lost me at rejection in high school. No, I think my takeaway is that if I, you know, if I say something pathetic, then people will give me money.

Lisa Gerber
It it doesn’t have to be about that, right?

Neil E. Golemo
Oh, but, I mean, I love that. You know, you could tell a lot about somebody by their stories. And really, when you think about that’s kind of the only way you can tell anything right about a person is through their story. And to me, it’s. Out being seen and being known, you know, one little glimpse at a time through, like, your life, and so that resonates with me a lot.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, I was connecting too, with the participant who said, I don’t want to brag, right? And I think a lot of us don’t, still don’t want to tell stories because we don’t want to brag. We don’t want to seem unrelatable. We want, we don’t we don’t want this or this or this or this. And I think maybe that’s poor storytelling, is what we imagine. But I also think that they’re, you know, I don’t want to brag, but when I hear other people tell these great stories of their accomplishments or these powerful moments in their life. I don’t think they’re bragging. I think it’s beautiful and lovely, and now I get you in ways I didn’t before, yeah, so I think that can be really helpful. Yeah.

Lisa Gerber
Well, it’s about the intention in your story. So if your intent is to brag or boast, then it is going to come across as that. But if your intention is to inspire to give some takeaways, or, you know, whatever that is, you know you want to share about your accomplishments, but there’s probably lessons learned along the way, mistakes made along the way, and that’s where the stories are really compelling, right? So it really comes down to the intention of keeping yourself from sounding braggy. I think,

Keith Edwards
well, we’re moving into a bit of the house, so let’s move into, yeah, how? So if folks listening to this conversation go, Okay, I’ve told some stories. I can see how this is compelling. It fosters connection and relatability, and could be useful, and maybe Neils High School trauma could lead to some fundraising. But how do we do this? You talked about the as the craft and honing craft. How do we tell good stories? I

Lisa Gerber
Yes, so I want, I’ll start with what stories to tell, or how to find the stories to tell, and then I’ll give a little bit about how how to tell the stories. So I think that the most, and this is in my book, is that the most powerful stories have three qualities. They’re real, relatable and riveting. So we’ve already sort of used a lot of these words so far in our conversation here, and I think that I’ll explore each one of these just as an overview, because they help drive what story we could be telling. I’m often less concerned about how you tell a story and more interested in which story you’re telling, and that’s where the strategic storytelling comes in. Like, are we answering questions on people’s minds? Are we proactively addressing objections they may have around what you have to share? So when stories that are real allow us to anchor our message and evidence. And that I know, especially with this audience, evidence is is a evidence based being, you know, studies and statistics and all that. And I’m not saying that that’s not true, that that’s not correct, that we want to have those types of evidence in our messages, but stories allow us to bring these ideas to life and to actually show them in action. And so that’s it helps us make meaning out of words that people can have different interpretations of. And it helps us, yeah, just bring an idea to life. When we are relatable, we help put it, put our message in their frame of reference. We help them see an idea or message through their own perspective, through their own interpretation and riveting. I love this one because riveting is connecting our stories to purpose. So if we look back at the story of my client, her name is Amy, she her story was not about being a cheerleader, it was about rejection, and that was the thing that attracted people to her, that brought people to her. And so when we connect our stories to purpose or to each other, that becomes very riveting. Right riveting, literally means to fasten, and that brings the right people, not everybody, to you. So those three come that combination helps us be really effective at storytelling, to kind of think through those things. Do you before i i can keep talking, I can go into the sort of how we craft stories, but I just wonder if that was a good overview of. Because obviously I have a whole book written on all three of those words, so I could go on and on forever, yeah.

Keith Edwards
And I just think for for our audience, there’s the real, relatable and riveting and, yeah, yeah, that’s that’s pretty central. And I think it’s three hours, so it’s super memorable, yes, and it’s super helpful. Neil, what were you going to add?

Neil E. Golemo
Well, I was just going to say that, like, you know, the riveting is, like, why should I care? You know, exactly we can pay attention to all the things we could perceive, you know, why should I perceive this? And so makes perfect sense. So that’s

Lisa Gerber
exactly it. So if when, another way to look at all three of those is when we’re real, we make it personal. So either personal to us, personal to them, or it’s personal in the language and the words that we use. When we’re relatable, we make it matter to the audience that we want to reach. And when we’re riveting, we make it better. And that’s, that’s the so what? What’s in it for them? There’s always has to be. And this also goes back to the, you know, your question about being braggy and boastful, if we are answering the question, what’s in it for them, that’s, that’s the riveting piece. There has to be something in it for them. Otherwise, we’re just being boastful.

Keith Edwards
It’s reminding me, if the story is about me, no one’s really gonna care. But if the story is about them, even if the story is about me, but I’m telling it for them to be of service, to help them gain this insight or understand this thing or understand me. But if it’s just about my story for me, then yeah, why would anybody care? But yeah, you know, it’s like when I work with my coaching clients, I one of the things I do is have them come up with a life purpose and no good. Life Purpose isn’t about serving others in some way. There’s a million different ways to say I want to bring more love to the world, or I want to foster hope, or I want to help people realize their dream. But if it’s about, you know, a life purpose is I want to have more of this. It never works. There’s no resonance. It’s always about being service to others. So thinking about how our stories can be of service to others feels like a absolutely useful sort of

Lisa Gerber
flip, yes, that’s that religion piece. Absolutely.

Keith Edwards
Amy story isn’t just about rejection, it’s also about resilience, because she was rejected, and here’s in a cheerleader outfit, she’s owning it, she’s reclaiming it, she’s she’s taking it back. She’s making, yes, there’s, there’s a champion like and, and I’m imagining listening to that story, feeling my own rejection, and then seeing her reclaim it. I’m drawn right to, like, how might I get that back and

Lisa Gerber
living our dreams? It’s also about living our dreams. Yeah, absolutely.

Neil E. Golemo
Neil, were you gonna say something? Yeah? Well, I see I want to get back to, like, the braggy part, because, yeah, I, you know, I love that um, self talk that we I think everybody has, where, why? Why does nobody wants to hear about you. Like, how, how interesting Are you? Really? Well, thing is, like, I am interesting, and other people are interesting, everyone and so, and I loved how you talked in the book about you just touched on, like, vulnerability, and how you know, honestly, that’s that signals strength, like, if you’re willing to show a weak spot, then that that signals that you you have faith in yourself, and that You know you can share this awkward moment and yeah, and it’s just very, very counterintuitive. Well,

Lisa Gerber
especially in a leadership capacity, when a leader shares vulnerable vulnerability, they’re really creating trust with their team. And just like the story of, it invites others to share their own, and that creates a bond you just don’t realize until after it happens.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, I think that’s such a great point for leaders, because every leader wants to be trusted, right?

Lisa Gerber
And they should, and I feel like they have to put up this front,

Keith Edwards
right? They have to be perfect. They have to know all the answers. They’ve never trusted. They have everything down, right? And we don’t trust those people, no, because it’s not real, and we don’t believe it, and we don’t think they but that notion that if you want people to trust you, right, share that vulnerability, tell them about the mistake you made and how sorry you are, yeah. And when people, when leaders do that, people go, Well, I’ll follow you anywhere. But when they never make a mistake, and they know all the answers, and they they’re certain about everything, and just go, I don’t, I don’t buy it.

Lisa Gerber
It also gives a little permission for their team to take risk in areas if otherwise they they won’t. Don’t they’ll just, you know, do the bare minimum, do what’s expected of them. But you want to have, if you want to have a culture where people are innovating and trying new things, there has to be a little bit of vulnerability and and and a little bit of acceptance that mistakes might happen. I

Neil E. Golemo
think mistakes are great, honestly. Yeah, the learning happens, yeah? So we never can’t fix things you did perfectly, like fix the things you mess up. And love that, like remembering that, you know, we’re all kind of becoming Right, yeah? So absolutely for us in higher education, I was going to say, like, I love how you talked about how, you know, life hates a vacuum, and you know, if we don’t tell our story, other people will tell it for us, yep, and they will fill in their gaps. And you know, they’re going to use the models they have of like seeing out in the world. And you know, so if you’re a boss that doesn’t share about yourself and doesn’t give yourself a chance to be known or seen, they’re going to just paste whatever idea they’re going to do the most human thing ever, and paste whatever idea of the boss.

Lisa Gerber
They’re going to create their own stories. Yep, yeah. And they’re not always very kind in the lack in the vacuum of a story, for sure. Well, Lisa,

Keith Edwards
I want to hear a little bit more about the how of the story, but yeah, Neil, you can tell us a little bit about this podcast format, because I think Lisa can be really helpful to to future guests in this so do you want to tell us a little bit more about it’s not going to be a separate podcast. It’s going to be a separate episode format. So tell us about here’s the story. So

Neil E. Golemo
you know, I’ve been hiring people for 18 ish, 19 years, and one of my favorite questions to ask anybody, especially in our housing context, is, how do you explain what you do to your grandma or to somebody who has no idea what it is? So I think you can tell a lot about somebody about how they because nobody really knows what we do in higher ed, I think a lot of folks just assume we do a lot of pizza parties and, you know, a lot of just, you know, finger wagging, and that’s not accurate, and it’s not right. And so really, what we wanted to do is we wanted to highlight that experience, because everybody who works in higher education has like a story, like they have that one story for that book they’re never going to write, right? And so we really kind of wanted to just do that one of my favorite things about, you know, going to a conference, for instance, a single friends and sharing stories about your life, and like, you’re never going to believe this one. And so we are just trying to put that on celluloid, if you will, and trying to get them out there and and I think there’s going to be a lot of community in that. I think there’s a lot of people are going to feel seen because, yeah, and then the other thing is, our primary, you know, idea that we’re going for is joy, nice, you know, Keith, you said the other day, and I still think about, or we said a while ago, and I still think about when was the last time we saw good news in the Chronicle. And, you know, we’re kind of in a place now where, you know, lot of people are wondering, why do we do this? Like, why do I do this? And the thing is, is that there’s a lot of joy in this. It’s a delight to be around young people who are all potential and and just playing a part in that, like, that’s amazing. And I think it’s very, very easy to forget that. So we’re going to try and we’re going to fix that basically well.

Keith Edwards
And these are going to be short episodes. We’re going to try and keep them under 30 minutes. And when we release them, instead of a regular episode, we’ll release two of them that will be out there, and you’re going to invite people in to tell their stories, right to share a story and make some meaning of it. What you wanted to ask Lisa here to be helpful. What other context Do you want to provide?

Neil E. Golemo
Yeah, the basic thing we’re going for, the feeling we’re going for is just, it’ll be me, the host, and the other host, and each of us will bring a guest, and then we’re going to report them and split them separately as episodes. But basically, I. One of us will kind of know the story. One of us will be telling the story, and the rest of us are just listening and responding in real time. And there’s gonna be a lot of Oh no, you didn’t, and like you’re kidding me, and a lot of laughing for doing it, right? There’s gonna be a ton of laughing. So

Lisa Gerber
amazing. That sounds like it’ll be fantastic.

Neil E. Golemo
We’ll see. I was gonna ask you, like, what advice do you have for me, somebody who is trying to help tell stories?

Lisa Gerber
Yeah, I have a few things now. I’m rearranging based on what I just heard from you. I’m like thinking on the fly here, because, first of all, what is a story, even, which is pretty broad. Stories are, you know, what a story is, is a pretty broad idea. I think it’s more than just a chronology of events. And so when you ask a question, I think a lot of the times, the default is to just share a chronology of events. And so a history is not a story. Something actually has to happen. So maybe there’s a problem or a transformation or a pivot or a lesson learned or something along the way. So I always like to kind of start a story idea with the moment, and then the story kind of it gets built around that moment, right? So, like with Amy story, it started with, you know, people are approaching her and sharing their own story of rejection like that was a really interesting turn, an unexpected turn of events that created a good story. And I like to think, Keith, you might have heard me talk about this before, but I like to think and coach my clients on stories as an x ray. If we think of stories as an x ray, I was actually, I’m on the board of directors for an animal welfare organization, and the director, the medical director, came in to give us a presentation about a specific case one day, and she shared with us an x ray of a dog that had come in that they had taken care of, and showed us the broken bone X ray. And I thought that was so fascinating that I was so thankful that she shared an x ray and not the actual picture of the dog, right? And that made it a perfect metaphor for the idea of a story, because when we show the whole if we show the gory details, people are going to wince, they’re going to look away. So if there’s too much in your story, it’s like but if we give just the bare bones that are needed, then people get the picture. Not only do they get the picture, but it gives them room for interpretation and to see themselves in the story. That’s that relatability part, right? So I always encourage people to give the absolute bare bones of the story. But then, of course, you want to give it some life. You want to bring some details to life that you know, give it more meaning, that help people visualize and so here and there, and that’s like the where the balance needs to be found. It’s like, where do we want to bring it to life with more detail, the really meaningful details?

Lisa Gerber
And then the thing I often suggest, and people are either visual, they’re either very they would prefer to record, maybe, or type out their story. And what I hear a lot is when people tell me that they’re not good at storytelling, is that that’s not the case. We’re all storytellers. Humans are inherently storytellers. It’s just, I find the problem is, is that you’ve just stopped working on your story too early. It’s still in a draft format, and to get everything out on either paper or record it and then work on it, stories take a lot of work, just like we work on a report or we work on an email and we edit it, I think we take for granted that, oh, we’re just sharing a story so we can wing it, but I really encourage practicing it. So then look at everything that you have, whether it’s recorded or written out, and then go back to this idea. Do I have just the bare bones? What is not necessary? What don’t I need? Just because it happened doesn’t mean it needs to be in the story. So what can I pull out and where can I bring something? In Your Life. And then you start practicing it, practicing it on someone that you trust, someone that you know, that will give you good feedback. And you modify it. From there,

Neil E. Golemo
I feel like you’re attacking me right now. Actually, I get it. I get it. Get to the point, yeah. Plane

Lisa Gerber
definitely get to the point. Yeah. And actually, that’s a really good point. On that point is what is give the most thought to the opening and the closing. So what’s the first sentence? And how can you somehow make it enticing? And the first sentence is often the last piece that you that you craft of your story because you want to see what the whole story looks like, and then how can you lead into it in a way that is anticipatory for your audience?

Neil E. Golemo
Well, I think I’m really one of the things I’m really excited about is, in theory, these are going to be stories that they’ve told 100 times, like everybody has, yes, that story, and so, you know, just some sometimes it might just be like, you know, the the fish gets a little bit bigger every time you tell it. But no, I’m really, really excited, because we will be hopefully getting the stories and choosing them based on the story themselves. But I think one thing we’re also going to try and do, and I think that’s something that kind of, along with what I read in your book, is that we really, really, really want to make sure that all the stories have a chance to be told, yes, like every earnest point of view is is welcome and and valid. And so we’re going to be working towards that as well.

Lisa Gerber
That’s great, and that’s if, if this clip gets shared with your guests before they come on. I mean, it’s a great opportunity for them to practice their story on a spouse, a partner, a friend. I mean, that’s what I always do when I before I, you know, I can think of a particular instance where I was telling a new story that opened a keynote last fall, and I shared it with my husband. I’m standing right over there in the kitchen, telling him the story. And it’s amazing how important outside perspective is, because we are so in it, we don’t realize, you know. And he noticed, well, you left out that piece, where it connects to this other thing, and so I was kind of left hanging. I didn’t understand, and I’m like, oh, yeah, of course. And it was crucial, but I would have missed it otherwise. So it’s, it’s so important to practice it with someone and just get their get their feedback, like, what really was impactful to you, of this story, where did I start to lose you? And, you know, did I make the case for the point that I’m about to make? And did everything Connect? Well, you left me hanging here, that kind of thing.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, I’m connected with a couple things, which is, one of them is the human brain loves a mystery. And I was thinking about that first line of the story. If it, if you begin with, so the plane’s going down, well, I want to know what, where’s the plane? Who thought it was like? I have so many questions. I’m hooked, right? But if you begin with, I’m in an airplane from New York to Tampa. I I’ve stopped listening, right? Yeah, but the human brain loves a mystery, and I think as educators, that’s one of the things we can do, is create a mystery that the learners are intrigued to solve. Yeah, you know, how do airplanes that way, this much fly? Can you explain that? Like, I can’t. I mean, I know about Berluti principle, but every time I see an airplane, I’m like, That’s magic, I’m pretty sure. And when you realize you can’t explain it, then you want to know, well, how do they fly? Like, now, teach me that, right, right? And the other one, I think that we where we often lose people in our stories in higher ed and especially in student affairs, is we use insider language or just acronyms, right? We use these acronyms and right, as someone who works with people on many different campuses, that is one of the things that I’m often reminding and regular listeners of the podcast. Now I’m often saying, Well, what’s that acronym? Oh, right, right, right. That’s like an insider thing that all the six people who are experts in this field know, but we’re trying to reach more people, or people beyond our campus don’t know that acronym, or people beyond higher ed don’t know what FAFSA is. And so how do we explain some of those things. And so insider language, jargon, acronyms, I think, can be something that if you tell the story to someone else, they go, Well, I have no idea what fascia is. You gotta explain what that means.

Lisa Gerber
I would also add to that, like words that don’t mean a lot, words like amazing. And, you know, world class. And yeah, the thing like, if you if I find myself using those words, or if I see it, and the clients, you know, I’m like, What do you mean by this? What is world class to you? And just really get specific and ask. And then Neil, this might be a good area. Like, what kinds of questions do we ask to kind of delve in and get the better story is also really important. Curiosity is such an important part of storytelling. But, yeah, just how do we, like take words and and pop them out and bring more meaning to them, so that our our stories don’t sound too generic. I

Neil E. Golemo
love that you’re talking about mystery, because I don’t know, in higher ed if we love a mystery, like we kind of want to know everything. That’s kind of like a point, right? But also, you know, boy, we love a good acronym, and, oh my gosh, we love some bad ones. And, you know, there’s times where I look at own stuff and I’m like, Can I can I buy a vowel over here? Like, what does this mean? And it’s a weird sort of kind of gatekeeping. I think, I think it’s like, almost like, well, if you know what this means, and you’re one of us, and you know, our students don’t, and, like, if parents don’t, and as a recovering student, myself, just finishing my program last year, I I, like struggled a lot. I was getting my PhD in college. I’m supposed to be an expert in this, and I couldn’t figure out where to submit my final paperwork. And you know, that was really, really good for me to go back and put myself like in the shoes of the people I’m supposed to serve. And you know, we do a lot of that. We just kind of assume everybody knows what’s in our heads. And so that’s why the talking part is pretty important,

Lisa Gerber
right? Yeah, it’s high perspective, yeah. And it’s also thinking about what questions might they have on their mind that they would be embarrassed to ask. And and, you know, like the acronyms, maybe they should know the acronym, for example. But there’s so many other, you know, we’re just working on a research report for a client, and there were all sorts of places where we like, let’s explain this. Let’s explain that because, you know, the audience might not understand exactly, and they won’t ask because they think they should know.

Keith Edwards
I’ve learned that is the curse of knowledge, that once you know a thing, yes, really well, right? And you’re an expert enough to teach it, you forget what it’s like to not know that thing. You forget what it’s like to not know that language or the acronyms or the jargon. You forget what it’s like not to have that feeling, the emotion. And so the curse of knowledge is not just intellectual but the empathy. Like what what’s it like to hear the words white privilege for the very first time in your life. What’s that like cognitively, and what’s that like emotionally? Yeah, and some of us who are teaching some of those things have been so far away from it that we throw it around like everybody knows it, or everybody should know it, and don’t ask me any questions. And I think there can sometimes be, you know, pontification as a self defense mechanism. If I knew big enough words, you won’t ask me any questions. Because I’m worried that if you ask follow up questions, then I my fraudulent, you know, insecurities will be yes, will be revealed. Yeah, I was also connecting with what you’re sharing earlier. Lisa about world class, yeah, and I think there’s a I anticipate there’ll be a big shift in higher education, which it basically, for the past several decades, has had plenty of students at our availability to enroll, to grow and add resources and expand and and do that. And we’re coming to this point where there’s going to be fewer and fewer potential students coming in. And I think what I anticipate was when there’s plenty of customers, then how many institutions have said is that we’re the same as everybody else? You know, we’re the same as the University of Minnesota. We have just as many student organizations as they do, and we have all the majors that they do, and we have all the things that they do, and we have all the things that they do. And this small school is just like all the other small schools you’ve ever heard of, and we’re we’ve have everything that we’re kind of Keeping Up with the Joneses, right? Yeah. And I think as there are fewer potential students, I think what will distinguish us is not how we’re the same as everybody else, but how we’re different. I mean, Neil’s on a campus that has a ship for a classroom. Cool. That’s really unique. Yeah, I was on a campus that was organized around civic engagement and internationalism and saying we’re just like everybody else wouldn’t have really helped. But to say, if you. Come here. Here’s the thing that really makes us different from those places and those places and those places, but then you’re not for everyone. And I think we’ve tried to do is we tried to make all things to all people. And really, as competition for potential students increases, I think we’re gonna say, you know, this is what we are, and if that’s what you’re into, boy, are we the place for you? Then if you’re not, there’s a whole bunch of other places.

Neil E. Golemo
Keith, you mind if I kind of play with that little idea with you? Is it so much that we’re saying we’re like everybody else, or is it like we’re kind of higher education really loves prestige, and we love all the signifiers that come with like we are important. This is a big deal. And so, you know, how many times do you really need laurel leaves, like in everything? And you know, really, even we think about it like a degree is literally a signifier that you are borrowing against the prestige of that institution. They are certifying that you are worthy and, and so we do. We love prestige and and the thing is, is that the ironic thing is that any critical thinker, like any the type of thinkers that we will hope to create, or play a part in creating, are not going to accept that like they are going to say, Where’s your evidence show me, and I think that you’re absolutely right, in the higher education, Scott, and we just kind of assume everybody trusts us as much as we deserve to be trusted. And you know, we can do better. We need to tell the story, because it’s important, there is,

Keith Edwards
and nothing signifies that more than people bragging about how hard it is to get into their institution as a way of positioning them to get more people to apply at a place where it is impossible to get in, which is what a handful of institutions have really done, and Then the whole sector so.

Lisa Gerber
So just to piggyback on on that, the differentiation piece, like I get that I hear what you’re saying, Neil, and the prestige is important to people in higher ed. And do potential students care deeply about that? I think, to a degree they do, right, but it’s but, like you said, that just makes you fit in with everybody else, and makes you the same because everyone’s competing, maybe on prestige, but it’s the stories that make you real, relatable and riveting, that are really going to help you stand out. And to your point, they’re going, you know, things like the story about the ship and that just these different stories are going to attract the right people to you, not the wrong ones. And in any field that someone’s working in, that’s that’s what we want, right? Because it’s not a good match if we’re bringing the wrong people to us, it’s just, it’s not, it’s it’s not going to work out. And if we look at Amy’s story. Not every single person came up to her afterwards to share their story, just the people who were really moved by it. So it’s like a microcosm of how that how that works, and it brings the right people to you and helps you stand out instead of fitting in.

Neil E. Golemo
Yeah, like we all crave familiarity, like we know what to do with things. And so I imagine there’s a line there between, at what point does it stop being familiar and it just starts?

Lisa Gerber
So that’s knowing that the school is, you know, relatable. These are my people. I’m going to go here, and they’re going to be my people because of the story about blah, blah, blah totally relates to me. I can see myself in that story. And at the end of the day, people want to feel seen. They want to be heard understood, right? That’s the absolute most fundamental human need, right there, you know, in addition to food and shelter and water,

Keith Edwards
well, thank you both. We are running out of time. We could talk about stories and good ones, why and how and everything.

Lisa Gerber
Turns out, I do it all the time, I know

Keith Edwards
but this podcast is called Student Affairs NOW, and we love to end with this question of, What are you thinking, troubling or pondering now. And also, if you want to share with folks where they can connect with you, you can do that. I’m going to begin with Lisa, because it looks like Neil taking the ceiling to the for an answer. But what are you thinking, troubling or pondering now, and where can folks connect with you? Lisa,

Lisa Gerber
well, I’m wondering how my dog hair is going to wait 10 more minutes for her walk. And secondly, I am thinking about what’s going on in this world right now and how story can bring us together. That’s been a big thing on my mind lately. I think that it’s so interesting. How two things can be true about stories. They can be very divisive, but they can also really build community and bring people together around shared values and ideas. So I could share a lot more about that, but that’s something that I’m thinking about as we, you know, enter this year and this new administration and all that is going on in in our world. I don’t really know how to segue from that big idea and topic over to how to get in touch with me, but if you want to continue that conversation, I would love to

Keith Edwards
how’s that that’s great, and where can they reach you. They

Lisa Gerber
can find me at big leap creative.com that’s my website, and you know what I meant to tell you this, but I think I did share with you that I’m happy to share a digital version of my book. You can download it for free, and there’s also and if you’re like me, I prefer reading a hard copy book, so that’s available@amazon.com and any other online booksellers. So I would love that to offer that to your listeners, but they can find that information on my website, and you can sign up for my newsletter, and you know schedule time if you want to chat about what we what you heard in this or if you could use my help,

Keith Edwards
that’s awesome. That’s awesome. Neil, I’ve stalled enough. So what are you thinking, troubling or pondering now? And where can folks maybe connect with you? And here’s the story, if they’re they think I’ve got a story I’ve told 100 times.

Neil E. Golemo
Well, you know, I think, honestly, this is spurred so much in me, but just thinking about how, you know, how do we tell the story what we do? I love my work. I almost feel like it’s not always cool to really like your job. And I do and and how are we going to tell the story and help people connect? Because we need change, you know, the they’re not making more middle class white kids, you know, like that. None of those are who college was. Our college system was built for. And so the irony is that this the people who need it the most, or it doesn’t fit us. And so how are we going to do that? How are we going to tell that? And I think a lot of the political discourse out there is harmful to us, and it happened because we didn’t tell the story of why this is so important. Yeah? So, yeah, I’m just kind of thinking like, where are we going to get started? And I think it’s just, you know, one story at a time, absolutely, and just get caught trying on that. And so we’re going to do it.

Keith Edwards
Great, great. Yeah, thank you too. This has just been terrific and helpful and inspiring, and I’m really excited about this new format for here’s the story, because I think just the nature of this podcast is we invite authors like Lisa on and we invite panels of scholars who’ve devoted decades to studying a thing. And there’s really good reasons for that, but we’ve it leaves out other voices. And I think here’s the story. Is really an opportunity to bring a lot of the voices who might not be seen as experts or or have expertise, or have decades of experience, or Student Affairs legends, or written a book, or have, you know, a whole history that there are folks out there doing amazing things with amazing stories, and this is a chance to highlight some different voices, so I’m really excited about that. And Lisa, thanks so much for your insights on the why and the how stories, this will be so useful, and I think useful for folks who join this podcast. But I think I’m thinking a lot about higher ed leaders, vice presidents and chancellors and presidents, and the call to them to lead and to do so better with stories. Neil, do you want to share how you how folks can get in touch? Yeah,

Neil E. Golemo
that would have been nice, right? I’m somebody you actually can find on LinkedIn. I love LinkedIn, and so it’s Neil Golemo, G, O, L, E, M, O, there’s a lot of galimos out there. I don’t know them, and so please connect. I would love that. And as for your stories, we want to hear your stories, and we’re setting up our processes for that, but I know that we are going to borrow the heck out of the prestige that Keith has and all of his co hosts have built with Student Affairs now, and so I know that we’re going to be having a lot of our information, hopefully through that site, and we’re just going to take that prestige and just run it into the ground. It’s going to be great. Yeah.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, I love how you bashed prestige and then called us prestigious. That was an awesome

Lisa Gerber
our man of contradiction. So that’s a beautiful story, right there. Yeah, I’m complex.

Keith Edwards
Yes. Thank you both very much. I also want to, as we conclude here, I want to thank our sponsors of today’s episode, Evolve and Symplicity. Evolve helps senior leaders who value aspire to lead on and want to unleash their potential for transformational leadership. This is a program that I help co facilitate with my colleagues, Dr Brian Raut and Don Lee. We offer personalized experience with high impact value the asynchronous content and six individual and six group coaching sessions maximize learning for senior leaders with a focused time investment, greatly enhancing your ability to lead powerfully for social change and Symplicity is the global leader in student services technology platforms, with state of the art technology that empowers institutions to make data driven decisions specific to their goals, a true partner to The institution. Symplicity supports all aspects of student life, including, but not limited to Career Services and Development, Student Conduct and well being, student success and accessibility services to learn more, visit symplicity.com or visit them on socials. Huge shout out, as always, to our producer, Natalie Ambrosey, who does all the behind the scenes work to make us look and sound good, and cringes every time she hears us say that we love the support of these conversations from our community, which is you, you can help us reach even more folks by subscribing to the podcast, wherever you get podcasts, on YouTube and to our weekly newsletter where we announce each new episode each Wednesday morning. If you’re so inclined, you can leave us a five star review that helps great conversations like this reaching even larger audience. My name is Keith Edwards, thanks again to our two fabulous guests today and to everyone who’s watching and listening. Make it a great week. Thank you all.