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Annalyn Cruz
And so it wasn’t until I was pushed to the brink of my own health, that I really started to examine. I can’t keep doing it this way. So I guess my question is, wow, how are we creating spaces so that people who were like me, or who are struggling with the same thing that I was years ago, can actually have that authentic conversation with their managers, with their supervisors, with their leaders, and not be shamed or outcasted.

Glenn DeGuzman
Hi everyone, welcome to Student Affairs NOW, I’m your co host today Glenn DeGuzman. I’m also joined today by my co host, Gudrun Nguyet.

Glenn DeGuzman
Hello, everyone. And I’m also going to introduce my assistant co hosts, Sammy, who is 23 months old and a little bit cranky today. So we’re gonna work with that as much as we can. But today we’re discussing this known phenomenon that many of us noticed is happening in our field, but it’s difficult to talk about the departure and retention of student affairs professionals.

Glenn DeGuzman
We have a great group of folks joining us today who are just going to share their experiences and approaches to transforming Stanford’s work. What’s really cool is that we didn’t know this when we were putting this together, but Gudrun has connections to everyone on this panel. And so that’s been kind of a neat little kind of off line conversation. So with our guests that are here today, we want to definitely hear some of the critical issues that they’ve been able to experience or research when it comes to the perception of increased attrition of professionals in student affairs, and what we can do for the retention of the next generation of professional staff. So let’s go ahead and get started. Student Affairs NOW is the premier podcast and online learning community for 1000s of us who work in alongside and or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays finer details about this episode or browse our archives at studentaffairsnow.com.

Glenn DeGuzman
And today’s episode is also sponsored by ACPA. An independent 501 C three nonprofit association, which is sponsoring the special 13 episode series was student affairs now to celebrate its 100th anniversary boldly transforming higher education.

Glenn DeGuzman
As I mentioned, I’m your co host, Glenn DeGuzman, my pronouns are him his I’m the Associate Dean of Students and Director of Residential Life at UC Berkeley. I’m recording today from Livermore, California, on the unseeded lands of the Aloni peoples.

Glenn DeGuzman
And I’m Gudrun Nyunt and I use she her pronouns. I’m an assistant professor and program coordinator of the Higher Education and Student Affairs Program at Northern Illinois University, which occupies the homeland often Nisha Nabi peoples, also known as the council after three fires, and they also serve on the ACPA 100 core committee, but enough from us, let’s get the conversation started. So for my panelists, could you please introduce yourself with your pronouns your current role and institution? And Nick, why don’t you get us started?

Nick Fahnders
Gudrun, good to be here. My name is Nick Fahnders, he him pronouns. By day I do professional and career services work at the University of Chicago by night and weekends. I’m a doctoral student at Colorado state’s researching more equitable hiring using a complex non binary identity lens. And I’m coming to y’all today from Atlanta. So I’m literally you know, cross three different time zones giving you giving you cross coastal realness. And I’ll pass the intro microphone. So my colleague Amber

Amber R. Ulmer
Hi, there, my name is Amber Ulmer, I use they and she pronouns and I am the Senior Associate Director of Residential Life at UC Berkeley, and I’m gonna go to Annalyn

Annalyn Cruz
Hello, everybody. My name is Annalyn Cruz. I currently hold two different positions. So I have my own company which is grounded in wisdom, LLC. I’m a dream life and leadership coach, a space holder and speaker and then my other role is at UCSF. I’m an organizational consultant and I just started with them a few months ago. I will pass it on to Kamal.

Kamal Singh
Thank you for this opportunity. Again. I am Kamal Singh. I use she her pronouns. I am I currently just graduated from my higher education student affairs program at Northern Illinois, who Jen was an amazing professor for me, she taught my capstone, I would not have been able to do it without it. And now I’m transitioning into an area coordinator position at Carthage College in Kenosha, so I’m really excited for that. Thank you.

Glenn DeGuzman
All right. And so Kamal, as you were sharing, you just finished your graduate program, you’re starting a new role, right going into this field. As you’re thinking about the newest generation of student affairs professionals. We know that they’re approaching work life balance differently right than some of the generations in the past have. And so for you as someone starting out in the field, what are you looking for in your first job experience that is essential to your work life balance?

Kamal Singh
For sure, I feel like that’s something I struggled for a while, and I still struggle with it today. Um, like I said, my GH and my graduate assistant was in housing. So like I worked, where I went to school and up to here, and I did everything here. So work life was very blurry. And there was no balance there. And I’m transitioning into another housing role for Carthage, as well. So I think that’s the biggest thing that I’m nervous about. But one thing I do appreciate, and I did appreciate was how my supervisor was very much holding me accountable in ways to make sure I kept a life and work life balance. And I made sure that I was prioritizing certain things outside of work. Because this wasn’t my full time job, I was still a student, I was still trying to manage being a full time student and trying to make sure that I did my role in the best capacity because I believe housing is the foundation for students that are in coming to college and making sure that they’re taken care of. So that was a huge, that is still a huge responsibility. For me in trying to transition that into my new role, I think I’ll be able to do it in a better way, because I don’t have school. But also, I feel like just making sure that I’m given grace, since it is my first time role, making sure I’m giving grace, making sure I’m giving myself grace, making sure I have that flexibility and that communication and collaboration. I thrive in spaces, where I’m willing, when I’m able to work with other people in here, they’re able to hear my ideas, I’m able to hear their ideas. And they feel like that’s why I want to pursue and housing continue pursuing the green housing for a couple more years is because the aim of work with a close knit student staff and being able to learn from them and having that connection with them and helping them go further, as well as with my residents, I feel like that’ll be the best way of understanding myself as well. Because when I have these conversations, when I look back, I’m like, there’s multiple times when I was advising students like, oh, maybe we should figure out a way to like, you know how you can do this and do that. And I would go back to my apartment that attempt to my practice that. So I feel like I kind of see myself in those situations as well. And now that I’m transitioning fully as a full time, I feel like I’ll be able to hold a better way of tackling my days and a better way of conducting my work. Because if I’m not fully there mentally, emotionally, physically, how am I going to be fully present for my residents and my staff. So I feel like that’s something that I’ve, I’m always I’m not gonna lie, I think I’m always going to struggle with this. Because when it comes to us, we’re in a helping profession. And we want to make sure that people that we’re helping us are taken care of. So it’s something that I’m always gonna struggle with. But I feel like it’s a, it’s a motivational thing for me as well to make to make sure that I’m okay as well. So it’s a give and take process. But hopefully, I’ll get there somewhere sometime soon. Before I started in July.

Glenn DeGuzman
Kamal, thanks for that. That’s real talk, and appreciate you sharing some of the challenges and struggles of achieving work life balance. And I want to follow up that your response and push this question to Amber. Amber. You know, we’ve worked together for a while and I know that I’ve had front row seats watching you over the last many, many years leading in refresh and shift in our own Residential Life department and how you attract and hire new professionals. And so is Kamal’s perspective resonating with you? And what do you think is most important factors in, in recruiting and retaining staff?

Amber R. Ulmer
Yeah, it definitely does. And it’s one of the early conversations that we have is when someone starts to work for me, I like to sit down really right away and have a little conversation about like, we’re still working in a capitalist system, we have to understand that, you know, our personal boundaries are part of how we are able to show up fully for our residents. In the moments that we are working and doing this good stuff. It pulls at your heartstrings, because in residential life, particularly, we get to see people’s absolute best days, and we get to see their absolute worst days and we want to be there for their worst days. And so I think for us, like we wanted to think about how do you help people hold themselves accountable to creating boundaries, so that they can have a life outside of work and, and have something that is more important than this place, particularly for live on staff. It can be all consuming and just because you cross the stage in May and you come work for us starting July one doesn’t mean you’ve necessarily made the mental transition from being a student and being fully immersed 24 hours a day into this into what is absolutely now going to be hopefully, a flourishing life and you know, we have conversations with Pete People I asked people really early on, do you have a hobby, and then if they don’t, that is one of the things that I follow up with people, I want you to have something that is so important that at six o’clock you turn the phone off, and you go do that thing. And I want you to be able to take every single one of your paid days off, because it is really important for us to step away from these really intense situations that we find ourselves in, when working with young people. And if if we aren’t our best selves, then we can’t show up in these really authentic ways in the in the hard moments. And I talked to my staff about, you know, I want you working at 80 85% Max most of the time, because we’re crisis responders, and we are going to be called to to 115% periodically, in those really horrific moments. And, you know, I want you to have the bandwidth to do that, I want you to be able to know that there is a system in place, that you when you need to step away you can we talk a lot about the parable of the choir, and how a choir can go on in different indefinitely because people are able to drop out as individuals take a breath and come back. And we all kind of do this at different times, and find moments to refresh ourselves. I think we’ve also tried to put into place some strategic policy and or other things, to be able to show that we’re listening to our staff members about what’s important to them, we have a really hard line six o’clock, turn off your phone, five o’clock if you aren’t live on and, you know, we really trust our duty structure that if someone needs to be called, they will be called. And we will figure it out. And, you know, we try to help people move from an individualistic point of view to a collective point of view, we really are here for our residents, we have to be really clear about what our purpose is, and what our mission is, and what our parameters are and what our problems are, and what are the problems of other offices or resources or support systems. How can we be creative to tap into different things. And, you know, it’s never going to be easy. I think it took me a long time to learn to put stuff down and be able to walk away. But I think the pandemic was a flashpoint for at least me as an older millennial manager to say, Okay, well, maybe there is a different way to do this. And I have to be able to be willing to do that. You know, it’s controversial, but after five o’clock, I don’t check my email on the weekends, I don’t check my email, I really do not work, I do have a couple like organizational things that help my specific brain. So Sunday night, I take five minutes and look at my phone. And, you know, kind of order my thoughts about what Monday morning is going to look like. But other than that, I really try to disconnect and I really try to help my staff members understand, you also have the permission. And in fact, I am going to be a little mad at you if you don’t disconnect in these moments.

Glenn DeGuzman
I love that Amber and it’s funny, right? Because we went to grad school together. And so you know, me when I was a grad assistant definitely did not have a good work life balance, right. And it took me years to figure that out and get better at it. And I’m still not not perfect at it. But But um, and and work life balance is such a big part, right? We know from the literature on on departure. And that’s one of the topics that I’ve been studying that I found is right work life balance is really one of the driving forces that pushes people out of the field. But we also know their structures, right, that are underlying our field and shaping our field that make it exclusionary or difficult for people to work in it. And so I’m going to turn this over to Nick, because I know Nick, you’ve been involved with ACPA and the ACPAs 21st century employment report, right, that really looked at how white supremacy culture shapes Student Affairs work environments, and I know your specific spin on that right is a lot related to hiring.

Nick Fahnders
So I think four, you want to complicate. You want to both complicate the amount of supremacist processes, but keep it as simple and as humanizing as possible. Amber, I mean, what you said really resonated with me about being there for their worst days. I think the story I’ll tell is that candidate who I ended up hiring, confided in me after she had accepted an offer that she reached out to a person that left the field. And when I had hired this person, she was always interested in they were always interested in art. So they went to do an art career. But this candidate found a former employee on LinkedIn and said and asked them, Hey, is it safe to work here? And that person responded saying, yes, it is like, here’s what Nick does, here’s why it’s safe. That’s ever. And I think that’s a really fair question to ask and with how hiring was developed before technology, we really need to normalize that it’s okay to ask really, human first questions about the workplace and be prepared for people to ask those questions and not necessarily tell you as a hiring officer, what they’re really thinking about, and how they’re really going to make a decision to start to work, not to mention what might motivate them to leave the work. So yeah, I mean, they’re going to Ember, being there for their worst days for me, starts with a conversation in hiring and being able to resist fear and resist perfectionism and say, you know, in a non, I had my housing days, I’m in a different functional area now with career services. And there’s still emotions and anxieties that come build from who we’re working with as colleagues and who are working for as students. And if we don’t really spend time thinking about the conversations like this, as colleagues that we’re having, and how that applies to educating students that leave after graduating with a degree and go to industries and sectors that may not be as humanizing or resisting supremacist culture. You know, that’s, that’s work that needs to be done.

Glenn DeGuzman
Wow. Where was this conversation? When I started out in my, in my professional career, Annalyn, and I want to get your thoughts on some of these responses. I know you specifically have had a very unique journey in your career, you know, we entered sniffers similar time periods. And, and I know for you, you’ve experienced a career trajectory change and, and I’d kind of want to hear more about, you know, you’re coming into the field leaving the field and return then returning to higher education. But you know, you you have a unique take on why you return and the terms that you came to an agreement with yourself. So could you maybe share about your career journey and what you would share with graduate new professionals? And on when, when it takes to have balance, what would you share with them?

Annalyn Cruz
I have so many thoughts on this question, especially after hearing everyone’s stories. So thanks again for having me on the podcast. And I forgot to mention my pronouns she her. So I had a quote unquote, traditional student affairs journey. I’ve known Glenn for over 30 years, I want to say, are close to 30 years at this point where, you know, I was a student leader at UCSB took some time off to figure out that I did want to get my master’s degree in student affairs. So I did that at Colorado State, and really wanted to quote unquote, climb the Student Affairs ladder. So, you know, starting out as a coordinator, and then moving up the different, you know, levels that we have within the within the field. And I remember, one of the best things that ever happened to my career was not getting an Assistant Dean of Students role that I had applied for many, many years ago. And I was at first really disappointed by not getting the role. But what that allowed me to do was to pivot and think about what are other opportunities that I could actually lean into within the field, but still, you know, still being involved in it. Fast forward a few years, and I discovered the learning and development role at Berkeley, where I was supporting student affairs staff directly with their own development and career pathing and holding space for them who are often holding space for other people and students. And that was a really important role for me to discover this other pathway of what it meant to support, develop coach and facilitate experiences for people not just in student affairs, but I eventually left to go to corporate and work for a company called EA Electronic Arts. So I was at a video gaming company for five years and got to discover what that meant, you know, to be in a totally different environment than higher ed. And I saw burnout, both in higher ed and incorperate, I experienced burnout myself five years ago, while I was at that job, and it really reframed how I approached work, and how I approached my work identity. And I didn’t realize until that point, that I had poured a lot of myself into my career, um, to the point when I had to take a medical leave and take a timeout, I didn’t know who I was when I had to take that pause. And that was a really big life lesson. For me, that brings me to today that, you know, what I think back on my early career, I would often compare myself to my colleagues, I would often care so much about the students I was serving the staff that I was working alongside with that, I just pour too much of myself into that. And so when we’re in this field of student affairs, where we’re constantly caring for others, we’re often told to put ourselves in the backseat, we’re often told to, you know, take, take this job, even though it doesn’t pay very much money, because we’re here to serve. And that’s what you’re meant to do. I feel differently about all those things that I just shared here. But what I will say about that piece that’s challenging, that is challenging for anybody to have those messages be told to you over and over again, and get reinforced sometimes with people that we work with where we see they’re also working 80 plus hours a week. And there’s a point when one has to decide, is this the pathway for me like do I want to keep living my life this way? Or what incremental changes can I make within myself to to ensure that I am, I am providing some sort of healthier mechanisms and ways to if we’re not completely balanced? Because I don’t think that’s a reality, right? I think many of us shared here that it’s not always going to be a balanced wheel the whole time. However, I think there are ways in which we can manage our own energies by not taking on others energies ourselves. And I think it’s very easy to do that in the types of roles that we often have here in student affairs. So for me, like a real practical thing that I do you even now, so I’ve returned to the field as an org consultant. So I’m supporting, you know, people on the campus on the health side at UCSF, working with leaders in their teams. So I hear a lot of conversations where people are sharing their hearts with me, right, they’re sharing their struggles are sharing their challenges. And I’m coaching different folks along the way, and you hear a lot of pain and struggle. So I literally, at the end of my day or throughout the day, I’ll take a moment to do some meditation and Take three breaths for myself to walk outside to do whatever I can to kind of dissipate the energy that I may have taken on in those conversations. And in those moments. So the other thing I would say is that, you know, we hadn’t mentioned taking the time off. I think Amber, you had mentioned that of how important it is to do that. I had a manager early in my career who said, I want you to take your sick days. As mental health days, there are days when we’re not going to feel 100% and physically, you may feel fine and you want to push through, but I’m letting you know that that’s also what these sick days are for. And I never forgot that that was Like, you know, the early 2000s, when I was very, very early in my career, and I took that with me and said the same thing to other people who I directly supervise and manage, because I think it’s so so important for us, particularly if we’re people leaders, to set that example, for folks who are maybe earlier in their career, or if we have graduate assistants, or just undergrads who also work with us. They’re looking at us as examples to really support them. And, you know, I think, Glenn, you would have told me this back in the day, we’re in a fishable, right? We’re in a fishbowl when we’re in a leadership role. And I always say that in all my trainings, as well as whether we like it or not, people are looking and looking up to you to see how you’re showing up. And, you know, I think that’s just really important to share these stories, I will share my burnout story to anybody, because I don’t want that to happen to anyone else. It’s a terrible place to be. But I think the more that we shed light on these types of experiences and support each other in that without shame or embarrassment, that will that will allow for people to, to share their struggles as well. And to know they’re not alone. Ah,

Glenn DeGuzman
I love that Annalyn I love hearing your story and kind of how right you really had to take that time off and change how you do things. And I think that’s the piece. I think the piece that really, really stuck out to me was when you talked about right, we go into this field, because we care about students. And we’re told, right, this is for the students. And we got to do these things. And one of the things I found in my research was that four, I know semi semi showing us a car for those of you watching on YouTube. And right, we know that that we do it because we care. But there’s, there’s a limit, right? If we get burned out, then we can’t care anymore. And I think that’s that’s one of the things that stood out in my research is this, this idea of self sacrifice for the betterment of students is so entrenched in our culture, that it’s really difficult sometimes to say no, because you get that response. But what about the students? Right? Don’t you care about whatever it is. And so I’d love to hear from all of you, whoever wants to kind of chime in? How do you deal with that? How do you still put students first, but also put yourself first.

Kamal Singh
I can, I can start off. Um, I feel like going off with everyone is said especially and I just start sharing my personal stories. And I think about how I’ve gone through, like my undergrad journey is very, very at that very, very unique. Like it took me six years to get my undergrad degree, a lot of family stuff was going on, um, a lot of traveling back and forth. I was my primary caretaker for my grandma. So a lot of things going on and never like had an on bass rice stayed on campus. And I did everything like a traditional student, I was transferred to a lot of things. And when I share that with students, they’re like, No way. That’s like my journey is so similar. Like it took me these many years, I have so many like family obligations, and whatever. So I feel like hearing that and being able to connect with that with students, I feel like I’m doing my job, if they’re able to see if I’m able to share my story. And they’re able to see, oh, like, oh, this person who’s pursuing a master’s degree is doing this has gone through the same things that I have gone through, then maybe I can do, I can maybe do, I can maybe retain and go through my undergrad and pursue this and pursue that. So being able to like, I know, sometimes people are like, Oh, don’t share too much, don’t do this, don’t do that I’m, I’m a very vulnerable person, Dr. G knows this, like, I’m a very emotional, very vulnerable person, if I’m able to connect with someone on that level, then I know that I’ve done my job. And I’m not scared of doing that as well. So coming back to like, making sure those students are taking care of sinking into that vulnerability a bit, making sure that you are being your authentic self coming into your offices and making sure that you are willing to connect with students in a way where they will see themselves and they’ll be able to understand is very, very deep for me and very, very important for me. So if I’m able to do that, and I’m able to follow up with those students maintain connection with those students. And I feel like I’m doing my job in the best way I can. Um, there’s one of my staff members, she’s doing her practicum right now and she stopped by as my apartment, she knows I’m leaving that they should probably stop by today and she’s she’s commuting and she always checks up on me and tells me how are you doing? Like, do you need anything so having those connections is so so important. Um, that accountability piece comes in as well where people are, are making sure that you’re doing okay and that we’re making sure that I’m doing my job in a way where they’re where they’re doing okay, so I don’t know, that was probably a whirlwind answer and probably didn’t make any sense. But um, I feel like, for me, if I’m able to connect with students on a deeper level, especially with my students, staff, if I’m me, if I, if I know that they’re doing okay, and then they’re able to do their job in the best way possible, and I’m able to help them follow through with that, um, I know my residents are going to be able to be taken care of as well. And that’s going to flow down to them, too. So, yeah, those pieces are very important.

Glenn DeGuzman
I have a, I have a question for the group. Annalyn your comments resonated with me when you spoke about looking inward to see like, what what kind of things can you personally do to make to really reassess sort of how you look at balance and kind of make those choices? And then Amber, you brought up a point about, sort of, like, generationally, and I think about, you know, I’m a Gen X er, and, you know, when I, when I was coming through the field, it was just work, it was work, work, work, and, and then Nick, you kind of hit on the the white supremacy culture. So this question sort of kind of combines all those comments into this, this one thought that I have, and I’d like to get you to chime in. And it’s tied to the fact that sometimes, myself as a department leader, I can only make so many changes within my department. But there’s a larger campus expectation and, and it’s being led by folks who maybe are part of a different generation, or maybe don’t have a full understanding of all the changes and shifts that are occurring in our field, particularly in Residential Life and Housing, where the student experience is evolving faster than maybe even our knowledge and capacity or grad preparation is setting us up for so the I guess the question is really about what kind of things can we do? Or what are what are what are the things we want campus leaders to know, particularly about this next generation of professionals who are wanting balance, but maybe not sure how to pursue balance, because they’re also trying to perform, they’re also trying to show the professional competency in, in that sort of capitalistic view of work. So just want to get your take on that?

Nick Fahnders
Well, a phrase I say a lot, is that no job is good. It’s honestly been liberating for me, and I socialize it with others, no job is forever, but a relationship can be. And when you say it that way, and I think maybe the best example to you well, for my own experience, there are people who I’ve worked with decades ago, that I still talk to you. And I think that narrative is really reflected in this group having this conversation in the night, you know, I think from a functional area standpoint, I look at all sorts of different industries and sectors and the management consulting space has really leaned in to, when you depart from, say, McKinsey, you can a lot of people on their LinkedIn profiles, and the resumes will put McKinsey alone. So they’re identifying as somebody that may no longer work at that place, or identify that place. But if they feel connected enough to say, like, I don’t, I’m proud that I worked here. How does that get applied to? And there’s complications here? Because they’re students who become alumni. So what’s the difference between an employee who’s transitioned out of an organization for a college, you know, and then what’s, what’s the what’s that mean for students, but if there’s not an opportunity for a listserv, or a newsletter, or a way to stay connected, and really feel like the institution cared about you the same way that we care for students, you know, I think we’re doing an accidental or deliberate the surface. So without campus leader, or just giving us a say, you may not be here in two years, but we, we care about the work you’re doing today. And there’s a space for you tomorrow, don’t think just because you’ve left, that your note, you wouldn’t be, you know, considered for another opportunity here. And maybe my one other point would be, I don’t think we really normalize. When you have an offer from somewhere else, what the standards and expectations would be for counter offering. So my other quick story is, somebody on a team I supervised a few years ago, called me and told me she had accepted an offer and she was the highest performing person on my team. So I was like, ah, like, you signed it. It’s like it’s over. Okay, well, like congratulations. So we worked on a transition plan. And then in the spirit of relationships lasting beyond a job. We went and grabbed dinner and I was like Mandy never ever again. resists like, space. For people to fight for you to like, you know, there are certain mechanisms in place for that. But she was like, Oh, I didn’t even I didn’t know. And I was like, well, oh, that’s shame on us as an institution for not making it clear, we would fight to keep you. And it’s okay to pursue other opportunities. That’s, that’s how work works?

Amber R. Ulmer
I think the answer is, so I think part of it, I have had the benefit of for six years being the crisis responder at a large residential operation 9000 residents plus. And that really helped me realize that the single key skill that I got during that experience was the ability to create priority, the ability to say, not all of this is going to get done. So I need to figure out what is the most important thing and I need to be okay with letting go of some of the other stuff, or I need to right size the work, because I cannot work 80 hours a week and be that cannot be a sustainable way to do this. And so, so part of what I try to teach new, newer emerging professionals is how to create priority within your work, it is all going to feel really overwhelming. And I promise you if if we sit down and we individualize the system, of your organization, and administration, to how your brain works, but you know, we are clear about what the outcomes need to be at the end, I don’t care how you get there, I just care that you get there. And you know, there are going to be moments where you have to raise your hand and say, I need help. And so that I think the second skill is being really honest about where you are in any given moment. I think one of the things that has really benefitted, our department is leaning into that someone’s experience is only as good as their supervisor. And so we need to create excellent supervisors. And and we started with our leadership team, because if our resident directors are, are well supported, they can really support their students staff. And so I think we’re about to enter into a really interesting conversation about what does Student Affairs look like? You know, moving forward, I think that, again, my lens is residence life. And I think we’re gonna see an entire shift away from one job that has to be able to do everything to more specialized jobs, because being a crisis responder and being a programmer, are really two different skill sets. And I think there are a lot of functional areas in student affairs where you are asked to do these things that are disparate from each other, and you may be really good at one of them. And you may really struggle in the other. But that doesn’t mean that your work isn’t really important to the communities that you’re creating and supporting. I think the other thing is like, I’m always really clear, like I try to get to know every single one of my staff members, I have 32 of them, including Glenn as individuals so that I can understand, you know, where they want to go, what they want to get out of their experience, how they want to be supported. And you know, that we that they don’t see their leadership as, as you know, this, this, these people on pedestals, I am a normal human being out here, just trying to make it as as much as you are, and, and we’re in this struggle together.

Glenn DeGuzman
Thank you, Amber, I’m looking at time. And I want to make sure that there were some really good points that are brought up and I want to make sure that all of you have an opportunity to kind of weigh in and share maybe some some of your your final thoughts. We always we always close with the question. While we’re customers now. So I’d like to know, what are you thinking about now? What are you planning are pondering about based on this conversation? Maybe something that was brought up and that you’re asking more you have more questions about or some of the things that maybe you’re thinking about your work and what what’s troubling you now based on this conversation? Annalynn I’m gonna have you start off this this last question.

Annalyn Cruz
Yeah, what am I pondering about? You know, I think it’s twofold. One, going back to that last question, Glenn, around leadership and administrators. And are we are we listening to the needs of staff and what I’m sitting with is, what are the spaces that we’re creating so that people can share what’s on their hearts, what’s on their minds? You know, When I was going, when I was going through my burnout, struggling, it was internal for me, because I was assuming that people would just have a bad I would just have, I would have a bad reputation for taking time for myself. That’s how deeply ingrained you know what we were talking about earlier around capitalistic white supremacy culture, I have been ingrained and steeped in that for so long. And so it wasn’t until I was pushed to the brink of my own health, that I really started to examine. I can’t keep doing it this way. So I guess my question is, wow, how are we creating spaces so that people who were like me, or who are struggling with the same thing that I was years ago, can actually have that authentic conversation with their managers, with their supervisors, with their leaders, and not be shamed or outcasted. For that, so that’s what I’m pondering about. And then the other thing is, I always like to think about one practical way in which anyone who’s hearing this conversation could could use and what I would say is build in even one minute, right, like during your day to step outside to daydream about something else other than your job, right? Like just being able to kind of shift the energy within ourselves, because we can’t change everything that’s happening at our campuses, or at our institutions. But what we can start with is ways to care for ourselves and to be compassionate, and to give the same grace that we give our students, our peers, our leaders, like give that to ourselves, and continue to pour back into our own cups, because that’s how we’re going to continue to thrive in any workplace is doing that.

Annalyn Cruz
Wonderful words, Annalyn, Nick.

Nick Fahnders
In the spirit, of being as present as possible, because I heard, I heard all of that. And when I love it, I was thinking to like, can you listen to the needs of, you know, employees have spaces not created? I would argue you can’t? And how do we model that by taking time and space for ourselves. So I frankly, all I guess a thing for listeners anything for myself. For myself, decoupling what I’ve really frequently coupled in my doctoral work, while being an administrator, full time, taking a leave, or a PTO, you know, if you will, to start my qualifying exams and be totally present on that. And that’s really exciting and fun, and no one’s gonna be mad if I’m gone for two weeks, really getting some writing done and making progress towards a degree. Like, that’s good for me. And it’s good for, you know, everyone, in essence. And I think your point about space, and when we tend to couple our people with art, jobs and careers, so I, you know, I contend for anybody listening, be honest with yourself. And if you don’t have a best friend at work, you know, that there’s a Gallup survey that people have a lot of contention with the framing and wording. But the point is, if you don’t have a person you can trust at work, whether it’s your supervisor, whether it’s a colleague, that you know, find that balance for you let your brain breathe and like really lean into the community you have outside of work, that’s okay. That student affairs has a pretty particular way of socializing that, like everyone should be your bestie and you should get along with everybody and you should really be close and you know, that might not be healthy and it might not be possible. So if if you’re asking yourself those questions, you’re wrestling with it. Your your instincts are probably accurate and make the last shot to support the hobby framing you used. We’re

Glenn DeGuzman
sorry, Nick, we lost you in that last five, seven seconds. Can you just that last sentence if you could restate it?

Nick Fahnders
Yes. If you what I think I was saying was both the font are people outside of work? That’s okay. And to Amber’s point like earlier in this conversation. hobby is a word that some people don’t know how to answer. But what? No, I think that the options of hobby indoor daydreaming from Amber and intellect are great framings and options for you to just let your brain brief. Work hard. Treat yourself.

Glenn DeGuzman
Thank you. Kamal. What are your final thoughts?

Kamal Singh
Honestly, I’m just going to soak this all in because I’m in a space with amazing people that have been in this field for Longer than me, shoot, I’m starting my first full time job. So I’m just trying to soak all this in and take this going forward. Um, honestly, I feel like the whole part of being the best supervisor and being making sure that I’m there for my staff, that’s always been a priority for me. But I feel like taking that forward and honing it is like really something that’s really weighing heavy on me, I’m have a month to prepare to get have a reset and start my full time job. And I want to make sure that I’m at my best when I go in my first week of July, I’m at my best, I know what I want, I know what I want to do, I know how I want to tackle certain things going on in my job and how I can do that taking my staff with me, I don’t like to use like, oh my, like they’re following me, I love to learn from my stuff. That’s how I’ve come this far. So I want to create a collaborative workspace where like, if I’m doing something wrong, we can be like, Yo, come on, let’s do it this way, and take that forward. And if they have questions, I can help lead them in the way and help guide them in a way. So I feel like that’s the biggest thing holding, that I’m thinking about and pondering about. But everything everyone has said has been so beneficial and educational. So I really, really do appreciate all this knowledge that I’m gaining.

Glenn DeGuzman
Thank you Kamal Amber.

Amber R. Ulmer
Yeah, you know, what I’m thinking about is the ability to be curious, I think if one of the I know I’m in a good place, and I know, those people who work with me and for me, are in a good place when we can come at something from a curious perspective. And that is a real privilege, because there are a lot of reasons why someone may be forced into black and white thinking or, you know, being dualistic. And, and I think if we can figure out how to teach curiosity, or how to cultivate it, or how to encourage it, in our staff, in our students, in ourselves, it’s a real game changer. Because I find, when I come at things, from a point of view of curiosity, I hurt my own feelings a lot less. And I make a lot less assumptions about, you know, what this person that you know, why they did that thing, or how this outcome came to be. And if I again, you know, try to come from a place of as neutral a curiosity as possible, to think about this in the spirit of learning, and how to how to collaboratively move forward, then I think we’re in a good place. But, you know, I also I’m thinking a little about, you know, Nick’s staff members question about, is this a safe place to work? And, you know, how, as a department lead, do I know, if someone would answer that is as a yes. And, you know, what are those ways that we can gather that information? And, and, you know, still have people have bad days and bad weeks and, and hard semesters? But you know, would they still say yes, and, you know, I think I’ve benefited this year from having a really hard year. But we we had two staff members who came back to us and they had left and they said, actually, this place is special, and we want to come back. And that that was a really good testament to us that even though we’re dealing with like some really weird things, that, you know, hope is possible. Change is possible.

Glenn DeGuzman
Gudrun as a co host, I’m going to ask you to also weigh in, because I know you have a lot of thoughts around this topic.

Glenn DeGuzman
Yes, yeah. And I love I love the conversations we’ve had. And I particularly love that there’s been so much kind of practical advice right on things that you can do, because I think we can get caught in that conversation on a little bit related to cleanse question, right? Like, we can only change so much. And then this like looking to the higher ups to fix the system and distractions without doing the parts that at least we can influence. Right. But that said, I think for me, as a faculty member and researcher, I am spending a lot of time there Wade with the systems and distractions and wondering how do we get campus leadership to really buy into this concept of, of needing to transform higher education, right, of really fighting white supremacy, culture and how it’s ingrained in all of us and really making those changes. And I think that’s the piece that I haven’t figured out yet. Right? And I’m still grappling with it. I can wait, I can write articles and publish them. And you know, who knows who reads them probably to folks who already are buying into this right. But how do we get how do we make some of these, like, big picture changes happen to really transform our field, right? I think we’ve been in but what you shared. It sounds like there’s some amazing things right that you all are doing in your department. How do we help other people learn about that and really, also I’d committed this and make those changes as well. And I see some of that happening in pockets. right within ACPA. There’s lots of conversations on how do we do these things better. But, but I’m just still really grappling with this right. Like, and not just even the Vice President of Student Affairs level, like, how do we get it to the President, the Board of Trustees level to really say, this is not sustainable? And how do we change it?

Glenn DeGuzman
Thank you, you know, in the in the I’ve been with this podcast since the very beginning. I’ve never answered this question. And this is going to be the first time I’m going to answer this question. Because I’m Nick, when you said your comments, your final comments actually hit me way in here about developing trust at work I’ve been I’ve been in this field for 30 something years now. And I think about how I always care and wanting folks to find balance to have balance. But I know sometimes there’s that pushback. Now that I’m sitting in this leadership role, I think about the fact that I have just gone through personal tragedy in my life, and I had to take time and step away from work. And I thought about and thinking about how much time I took off. And I felt so guilty taking time off. And I started thinking about my supervisor and my supervisor, supervisor, I think about Amber, I think about the people who around me who have given me sort of permission to really heal or to take time to be fully present, so I can give fully back. And so, as I, you know, really returned back to sort of full time, I think about like, what are the things that I can do even more prominently as a as a campus leader to, to push for these types of changes, because we need to make sure that we are listening to our staff, we need to make sure that we are not just listening, but then really taking what there’s what’s being said, what’s being researched and applying it directly into policies and structures. Because we have to start somewhere because we also recognize that we have the ability to role model for other campuses, because this is not just a Berkeley thing. It’s not just it’s it is I think white more widespread, but we need to start somewhere. And we need to make sure that not only our staff members speaking up and voicing things but but campus leaders need to also act and demonstrate and role model that. So that’s what’s on my mind. I’m a little fired up right now. But I think this conversation is helping me just think about that a little more further. So I think we’re at a time, good and I’d see your got your hands full. So let me kind of just make sure that we get our thank you to our guests Annalen had a had a go she she’s doing her thing coaching coaching folks, I know, we had we knew that she had to bounce out a little bit earlier. But this episode was phenomenal. And our sponsor was ACPA. And so I want to make sure that we give a shout out to ACPA. ACPA college student educators International, celebrating its 100th anniversary is boldly transforming higher education by creating and sharing influential scholarship, shaping Critically Reflective practice and advocating for equitable and inclusive learning environments. ACPA aspires to be higher educations and Student Affairs most inclusive and community driven Association by leading our profession in centering, social justice, racial justice, and decolonization as defining concepts of our time and the foreseeable future. Throughout this anniversary year, ACPA is publishing interviews and think pieces about the past, present and future in ACPA developments. We encourage you to consider contributing to ACPAs ongoing conversation about the future, visit my acpa.org or connect with them on Instagram, Facebook, and X to learn more. Nat Ambrosey, our producer, love you, you’re gonna take this episode and transform it into something really cool, and it’s going to be online really soon. So thank you for making us look good, sound good and everything like that. We love the support of these important conversations from a community you can help us reach even more folks by subscribing to this podcast, YouTube or our weekly newsletter. Let your peers in college or graduate students faculty know about what we do. And if you’re inclined, leave us a five star review. So I’m Glenn and along with Gudrun, Nick, Kamal, Amber, Annalyn I want to say thank you to everyone who was watching or listening. Make it a great week. Bye, everybody.

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