Vernon Wall
The first thing that came to mind as I think people know the language. Yeah, so justice and inclusion. But no, I don’t know how to be it. And I think being a part of SJTI allows you to be it. And it calls you out. Because it’s all it basically says, Oh, great. You can you can quote a theory all you want. But how do you show up in the world with others? How do you engage? How do you engage resistance? How do you engage humanity?

Mamta Accapadi
Vernon WallWelcome to Student Affairs NOW the online learning community for Student Affairs educators. I’m your host Mamta Accapadi. Student Affairs NOW is a premier podcast and learning community for 1000s of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays, find us at atudentaffairsnow.com on YouTube or anywhere you listen to podcasts. Today’s episode is also sponsored by Symplicity. A true partner Symplicity supports all aspects of student life with technology platforms that empower institutions to make data driven decisions. Stay tuned to the end of the podcast for more information about our sponsor. As I shared earlier, my name is Mamta Accapadi I use she her her pronouns and I am broadcasting to you all today from Austin, Texas. Austin, Texas is situated on the ancestral homeland of the hermanos QuiltCon, Comanche leapin, Apache and Tonkawa peoples. I honor their wisdom that is among us today. So my friends, what a joy it is to be with this collective of educators and healers if I can use that term today. It’s such an honor to share space with people I and so many others consider to be mentors, friends and guides. Please welcome the core faculty of the Social Justice Training Institute, becky martinez, Kathy Obear, Vernon Wall and Jamie Washington. As individuals, each of these educators have had a profound impact on our profession, and how we think about CO creating loving and equitable systems and communities in higher education and beyond. But as a collective, their impact as the faculty of the Social Justice Training Institute, on higher education, as we know, it is truly awe inspiring. So I want to take a moment and soak that in. Please, my friends, join us in community as we reflect in this episode, on the legacy of 25 years of the Social Justice Training Institute, SJTI. Yes. So my friends, I know, you know, people listen to podcasts on their own time and day. But I want to acknowledge when we’re actually recording this, because I mean, there’s a lot of scheduling humor in what it takes to get this constellation of folks together. But you know what, this is the perfect time. So today represents the beginning of actually, the autumnal equinox. And the autumnal equinox is actually the time when day and light are equal 12 hours of day and 12 hours of night. And so we talked about the negotiation of the equitable balance of lightness and dark, I can’t think of a better day time season, that we’re having this conversation with all of you today. So it is truly a beautiful and perfect moment to be with all of you. So before we begin really getting into the competition, so I’d love for y’all to introduce yourself. So I’ll call on folks. And then if we can have each of you introduce yourselves individually, and we’ll steep into the conversation. So with that, may I start with Kathy Obear to the left of my screen.

Kathy Obear
Love you all. I’m Kathy Obear. She, they pronouns. Here in Denver, Colorado, the unseeded stolen land to the Arapaho, Ute, Cheyenne, Arapaho. And you take a deep breath because if I don’t share that I sometimes will invisible eyes and donate indigeneity and folks who are native, even as we talk about racial justice, so I’m a founding faculty will tell that story about 1997. Some of us started to gather, and I’m today also the president of the Center for transformation and change. So honored to be here.

Mamta Accapadi
Thank you, Kathy. And for that, I will move to Vernon.

Vernon Wall
Well, this is a joy for sure. Vernon Wall he him pronouns. I’m coming to you from Washington DC. The ancestral homelands of many native indigenous tribes were primarily the Piscataway. Yeah, I’m one of the founding faculty members of the Social Justice Training Institute. I’m Director of Business Development for Leadershape, which is a nonprofit that works with college students and leading with integrity. And President and Founder of one better world LLC, my little consulting group that is bouncing around here, and they are doing some hopefully good stuff in the world. So, so happy to be here.

Mamta Accapadi
All right, thank you, Vernon. And now let’s move to Jamie Washington.

Jaime Washington
Hello, hello. Hello. It is indeed I’m just I can’t stop smiling, my face is gonna hurt. By the time it’s all over. Because there is just such love right here. It’s just such a blessing and a gift to be in this space with, with all of you, Jamie Washington pronouns. He him is joining you again, from similarly to Vernon, I’m in the Maryland areas that Piscataway tribal nations. And we do breathe in the histories and the legacies of past harms and the peoples of these lands. As we continue to deepen our work, I get to serve with with these folks as the faculty, for SJTI, and I serve as the president of the Washington Consulting Group, and is a pastor unity Fellowship Church of Baltimore. And so it’s a delight to be in this space and in this energy with you all.

Mamta Accapadi
Thank you so much, Jamie. And then I like to invite Becky Martinez.

becky martinez
Oh, my goodness, I love that. I’m the caboose on this space. So Dr. becky martinez, she heard hers. I come to you from Hemet, California, the original homelands of the Korea and the Sanyo people. And just taking a deep breath on that, and knowing the history, but also knowing the current existence and still taking care of this world in ways that I am continuing to learn from. I am the president and founder of infinity martinez consulting. And I’m so like, delighted enjoyed and I’ve got my Kleenex right here next to me, if anybody knows me well, to be in this conversation with my friends and colleagues and mentors and family as we talk about SJTI, I am the bridge. And so we’ll be leading the next gen. Faculty, once these folks sit down.

Mamta Accapadi
Wonderful. Oh, wow, this is such a such a restorative time and space and really, really honored to be in spirit with all of you. So let’s jump right in my friends. So for the context of our podcast community, and I always love hearing the story, the origin story of SJ TI, I would love for you all to share how so the Social Justice Training Institute came to be. And so if I could direct to Jamie Washington first, and then we don’t we’ll go Rico. But

Jaime Washington
Well, I appreciate that. Thank you so much, Martha. And we, at every institute, we invite in this truth, the origin stories, how we came to be, for lots of reasons. One of those being again, inviting folks to know that when your heart is speaking something to you, when you look out into the world, and you see that there is a need that is not being fulfilled, that it is potentially your responsibility and your calling to help to do that. We were young and we had been in most all of us in higher education. And we would look around and we could see that there was a gap there was a need for for work. And so we have a group of us and we want to invite in it’s it is funny that I woke up this morning. And as I was just doing my meditations and did a quick scroll through Facebook, I saw a picture of and lovely wife Dawn, on on vacation in Greece. And so when we talk about the beginning, we certainly invite her energy and presence into the room. So Mark Helen, Kathy Obear, Jamie Washington and Vernon wall. Were kind of the early folks in higher education, particularly Student Affairs, who were being I asked to do do some work around training. And we would go to campuses or do workshops at conferences. And that’s where we began to connect as a collective. And what was sitting or sitting around just talking, and came to recognize that while many of us in our graduate programs have begun this work of self work around looking at some of our identities, doing some things and how those mattered and doing continuous work, we realized that there weren’t a lot of spaces for that kind of work posted on graduate school. And, and we thought, well, maybe we should try to do something, we should start something. And so, and again, the language again, of social justice, again, all identities mattering no hierarchy of oppression, you know, what’s kind of really foundational at the ethos, the connection of umbrella of oppression, all of those things were about recognizing that injustice anywhere is a threat to justice, everywhere. And so we decided, well, let’s let’s try it, and to create a week long experience for folks to come in and be a part. And so we started the institute with the idea that injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere, and we’re going to do social justice. And we’re going to look at all right, oh, we plan our first Institute, and we attempt to address every identity in that Institute. And it was a shitshow edited out. I mean, it was an experience. Learning happened, learning and much learning on our part, we learned, we learned relearn, we got really clear that that it is hard to really do the depth work that we need to do. If we’re pulling all the threads at once, right, and got clear that we needed to focus. And that given the context in which we live, we got clear that that context needed to that focus, that thread of identity needed to be race. And so for 20 For the next 24 years. And next, the rest of the institute’s we created a race immersion experience. And I’ll pause there and invite other voices in around or

Kathy Obear
you know, as I hear Jamie, I, I see you all not only are competent to have the background, I’m just not but we call it a Training Institute. And I think at the time, I know I want to own that I thought if we just put out a bunch of tools and skills people could take it and and I think that shows where I was 20 something five, six years ago. And not having done my own depth of self work just thinking I could pick up an activity and and so whether it was the LCI cross associates where we had some depth equity Institute, UMass Amherst, their social justice ed program, and many of us brought many other places, we just thought, well, let’s just share these privileged, marginalized and internalized oppression, internalized dominance, and found that, as you mentioned, folks, were not ready because we were asking them to go places they maybe hadn’t been asked before. And so as I think about SJTI, over 25 years, the depth of self work healing, really recognizing our part racist attitudes, behaviors, systemic racism, and not us doing it to other people, but us healing ourselves developing our own capacity. So we might have named it social justice Development Institute, if we had reminded, yeah, or something else. But I just want to acknowledge that’s how we started. And unfortunately, I think some people could take all the tools and think they’re ready to do it. But we always say at the end, don’t try this at home. Because even now, especially in this context, with everything so much different than 5-10 years ago, I find that I’m having to really upskill my work and change and be ready to move in the moment and do healing work so that I can show up a clear instrument of change as a white person, because there’s a lot triggering me all over the place.

Vernon Wall
Yeah, I mean, Kathy, you’ve got me thinking about at that time when SJ Chai began, individuals doing this work, were typically doing it through their marginalized identities. They entered the world basically are wanting to make their campus better for people like them. And most are folks who are in marginalized identities I think about us, and how we started the work. And the trainings and the activities that we did it was through our marginalized identities. I believe we we definitely brought, Matt, but I think we were part of that too, in terms of to how do we then look at? Oh, wait a minute. Yes. I have privileged identities also. And also within my marginalized identities, I have not unpacked what that EADS and to watch participants move through the experience in a way of some resistance around how dare you tell me that I’m not prepared to do this work? When I am. And we always say, and I love when Jamie says this, just because you are helping, you know. And it’s so true. And I’ve always hold up to that. Because as I see people show up, I go, who, you know, we all are in this together doing the work. And what does it mean for us to show up? Using self as instrument basically saying, I’m like you, I’m on a journey with you. Let’s do this together. Absolutely. Quick.

Kathy Obear
And white folks, I think we started were like me, how can we help people of color, you all are deficit. And so so much of our work over the years is having white folks doing our own work to recognize arrogance, entitlement sense of superiority, white supremacy, ideologies that we carry, how we act them out. And so we’re not replicating that same privilege marginalized, even as we’re doing the parallel caucus work.

becky martinez
Okay. And I want to add, as somebody who, you know, entered this group in 2008, as faculty, I think the beauty is to it was four friends that got together, that we’re having conversation and had an idea, right, that really wanted to give back to the profession. Right. So there wasn’t this ego, or this arrogance. And I think that that’s sometimes the thing that when you all, as I hear you all talk, you give logistics in this history. And it’s like, there were four friends that got together and tried something out. Yeah. Right. Like, that’s such goodness, because they were in relationship with each other. And because they saw a gap, and wanted to be like, okay, so how could we help support the the people in the profession and giving back to the profession? So that’s the ad, as somebody who observes,

Mamta Accapadi
but as a, just an external listener? I mean, I’m just in awe, right? I mean, we often look at the world and see all of these things that Oh, my God, we’re in could feel the overwhelm, like, what can be done? And what what can be done is what’s within our capacity? So start somewhere, start anywhere. And I think this story, just I think there’s so much hope, in this story, even amidst all of the heaviness, like, how do we just start somewhere, and here’s what start somewhere could look like and what it could become. Right. And so, becky, thank you for bringing that into the space. And thank you all so much for sharing, you know, coming out, I know, there’s more that will come related to the origin stories. And and of course, you know, here we are now, honor honoring and celebrating, you know, a 25 year legacy. And so, I would love to hear more about the evolution of SGI over the past two and a half decades. And how is that evolution really paralleled the evolution of social justice work? I know all of you have a lot to say. And I want to first ask Becky to reflect on this and then let’s unfold into the conversation.

becky martinez
Yeah, it’s a lovely question. So, you know, in honoring the founding faculty, and thinking about their racial identities, since it’s a race immersion, right, it was to folks that identify as black and to folks that identify as white. And so how do I mean one of the critical pieces that’s evolved is we’ve expanded and and we know that race is a construct, and there’s fluidity and it’s challenging, and there’s a part that we owe Mamta For nudging faculty. Hey,

Jaime Washington
over and over, until we finally listen. We’re good. Important, you are as a part of this evolution.

becky martinez
You really are. That’s like the beauty of you. Like facilitating this conversation is like we do like we like people who are listening and Mamta we want you to hear like, we owe you the space of like you gave feedback and feedback and feedback. And so Like, Oh, let’s get like, let’s get out of the black and white mono racial binary of faculty. And again, we started who we started with. And so I think that that has been a that has been a part of the evolution is to how do we how do we bring on and develop different racialized identity faculty. And so that is been a critical shift in, you know, we’re not perfect, and we don’t, we’re not checking all the boxes, and I appreciate SJ TI, that that’s not something that we focus on. And that’s something that we pay attention to. Right. As in these 25 years, if I could bring the curriculum 25 years ago to now, the curriculum actually is very similar. There are some key parts that we don’t do as much anymore, like the path to competence, which we wish we could fit in, but we can’t. So it’s a critical diagnostic piece. But it’s really about doing self work with the race lens to then see how we show up at groups and systems. And that hasn’t changed throughout the years. Like that is a critical piece to who we are some of the activities have shifted. Some of the timing has shifted. As a result of the pandemic, we’ve realized that we don’t go all the way until six anymore, like people just can’t hold that capacity. And we also have we start the race immersion sooner. Um, well, I think that we start the race immersion actually on Monday, and we go through until Thursday. Whereas I know when I went through it years ago, it was a little bit different. And just realize, like, let’s get into this sooner with care and kindness and love. And it really be in a laboratory of learning. The numbers have shifted ahead. So we have more folks that go now think when I went there was about 25, folks, so probably Mamta is similar to when you went and interns and now we have anywhere between 43 and 50. Our locations have changed a little bit. And so we had our first Institute in Columbus this past June. And it’s always been in Massachusetts. And so we’ve shifted that. And then we have shifted from going to Arizona to Long Beach, again, some stuff around the politicalness of the country in certain times, although nowadays it’s like where do we go. So that would be some of the ways that it has shifted, it’s also shifted out of higher ed. So it started in higher ed with participants. And now we have folks in K 12, and nonprofit, other consultants. I think it started very much in student affairs. And so now we have faculty. So it has expanded its participants, the participants.

Mamta Accapadi
Wow. So what have you all observed over the time? I mean, it’s interesting to hear, you know, and recognizing I was a participant a long time ago. Do you find that people come with different capacities, then? Maybe 15 or 20 years ago, that equip or allow folks to begin the race immersion are presented into intentional competition? What are you noticing that shifts and how people are processing and feeling and navigating?

Jaime Washington
Do you want to jump in? I know you’re gonna have to go in a little bit. But so if you want to put what have you seen in the in the opportunities that you’ve had to be there? I mean, we know that.

Vernon Wall
The first thing that came to mind as I think people know the language. Yeah, so justice and inclusion. But no, I don’t know how to be it. And I think being a part of SJTI allows you to be it. And it calls you out. Because it’s all it basically says, Oh, great. You can you can quote a theory all you want. But how do you show up in the world with others? How do you engage? How do you engage resistance? How do you engage humanity? That’s the thing for me. And I think what I’ve noticed and it was I there was a light bulb that happened probably around halfway through the time that we’ve been together that made me realize I don’t know who said it, but somebody in the room mentioned something and had me think about we are about liberation and healing. And I think I know it was because of some comments that we have in the race caucus that has people really show up in different ways. And I think that I’ve always said it’s we’ve got to we got it’s it’s personal work. It’s got to be about us doing our work in order to show up. And so I believe that people sometimes enter it as JTI thinking outwardly you know, on how am I going to take this information and do good things, do great things on my campus, do great things in my community, and not realize that the first step is understanding who you are in the world in order to do great things. And how do you navigate that? And how can you have conversations with individuals across race across difference, to really engage folks. And that, I think, is the biggest skill, because folks on how to talk to each other. Like, I can tell you how many times I’ve been facilitating a session. Um, Becky and I were just at a session not too long ago. And what we realized halfway through is folks haven’t really talked to each other, not had a conversation to be able to be in community because it’s about relationships. It’s about relationship.

Jaime Washington
Well, I would, I would just add, Bernie went right where where I was going, I think that my experience has been that folks. And as you said, go into the world do great things. I think sometimes that great things comes with bad intentions, or intentions that are not in alignment with the values that we hold it as JTI, which is about healing, liberation, and do no harm, which is about all of our humanity matters, right, which is about none of us created this, we’re all products of it, and we are doing our part to help heal the planet around it. Right. So that’s, we it’s a clear value base space, with which we design the experience the pedagogy, as well as the materials that we cover. We recognize that some folks see and do this work differently. As I was engaging in a session, even earlier this week, someone said talked about this feels like you’re wanting harmony, it’s like, well, as a musician, I do like harmony. Very much. And if you think harmony means can’t we just all get along just peoples, then you are missing what the intention is. Because my intention isn’t to get people. If that feels like harmony, then maybe it is, then maybe didn’t, maybe it is but the intention of the institute is to invite us to see each other’s humanity to own our parts to do our own healing work, so that we show up in the world not doing harm to others. And that might not be everybody’s value place. And we don’t necessarily make that wrong. But that’s not SJ TI. So, you know, as I think about what the evolution is, that I’ve seen, is that sometimes folks, again, is Vernon named earlier, come in doing work, first from my minoritized identities from our pain places. And, and so sometimes we come in with the intention to get you, right, or to get you together, whatever. And we’re to help people understand that they don’t know my pain, but we don’t. But our hope is to have space for that healing, so that you can also own where you might participate in that for others

Mamta Accapadi
that was ever reflecting, are there things that along the way have surprised any of you over the past 25 years.

Kathy Obear
I can start that as I wanted to add some of the things I’ve also seen is especially since George Floyd was murdered and the somber, foul of racial Reckoning and now the backsliding of commitment to anti racism, I’m seeing every organization government I could keep going. I think one of the dynamics and I was I was a little surprised when I first started see this dynamic of more and more folk of color indigenous folks coming in, more unapologetic done waiting, white people. You’re the best you say your campus your organization has and You’re pitiful I actually thought that as well. It’s so just a, an increasing chasm between where folk of color indigenous folks are how they’re showing up and how most white folks are showing up so y’all might disagree but I’ve seen that I think the last four or five plus years less patience for the growth that needs to happen the time especially in our privileged identities and building out the other three said in the marginalized identities as folk of color indigenous folks, the healing needs to happen so the wanting to fix it so I find white people are coming in not only performative like you were saying Vernon, the language but scared to be called racist, scared not to be perfect. So some of those white supremacy ideology, why wanting to be comfortable, just a lot of fear having to be competent and not realizing the competence that we’re helping people develop and then To build real quick on Jamie just you know this calling out culture, the social justice, arrogance, energy, which I think we don’t believe is the way to create community and collective learning. And comes from pain and sense of urgency and centuries of racism, oppression and genocide, and I understand it. And as a white person, when I’m receiving the energy of some folk of color, indigenous folk who are just done with me or done with white people, I don’t find many white folks have the capacity to stay in those conversations much less have dialogue, when there’s this level of difference of energy, life experience and triggered, cumulative impact. So those are some of the differences I’ve been seeing.

Jaime Washington
But if you don’t mind, I want to just jump in with Kathy here and connect it to that is, it’s very neat, it also said earlier, that we come having been the best people in the places we come from. I’m the one they call on it, I’m the one who gets it. And I’m the one, you know, whether it’s the white people that I work with most effectively or as a person of color, or white people who feel like they’re the most effective. And what they often don’t see is that some of that is about the relationship that has gotten developed in that space. And it really is at an individual level of competence. You are not having practice, outside of the familiarity of that space. And that hall director or Dean that you know, and so then you get into space is like, what we see you a group level baby. Like we’re not, we’re not meeting you at the individual, interpersonal, because we don’t know you. And so when I’m in the space, now, I’m still carrying all of the stuff I carry around black and white binary, and how I get silence in the conversation as a person of color, who is not in the black and white binary. And so I don’t know if I get to have voice here. I do have it on my campus, because I’m in the familiarity. I don’t know how to respond as a white person, because I feel like I’m taking up too much space or too much airtime. And I have learned don’t talk over and I have learned that they’re not going to rescue me when I cry. I’ve got that I’ve been through enough sessions by these people individually, to know why women’s tears and why fragility I got that. But I’m in the space now. And I want to cry and I’m scared to cry. So it’s this, we’ve learned this stuff out here. But then we get into not you’ve got to really live in this in the world, not just with the people, you know, right?

Mamta Accapadi
So one thing that I also you know, that that sits in the space of like, Can y’all have all mentioned in different ways, but like the mastery of the tools, and desire for perfection versus engaging the tools and knowing it’s going to be messy and messiness is part of the journey, right? And so, and there’s no way, there’s no way to learn this just practice you practice that. And so, yeah, just I love hearing the reflections around that.

becky martinez
What and you know, there’s so much resistance to doing self work. Yeah. Like self work is, is it’s hard work. It’s intentional work. It’s continuous work. And that’s one of the gifts that SJ TI, I believe, provides and role models, because we all are, like, in staff meetings, we’re working our staff and bumps and what’s come up. And a there’s, you know, even as I’ve seen it evolve, like self work can get so hard because there’s so much going on, and what is my part in it? And what do I need to heal and a lot of people are like, don’t tell me I need to heal. And it’s like, ah, take some deep breaths. So, you know, that’s one of the things that I have noticed throughout the years is you know, self work. People consider that to be warm and fuzzy. Right. And it is like, it is a way as you know, the if we talk about mastery and skill and practice, self work is so critical in centered in that space. But there is not a lot of writing or research our work on that. And so it doesn’t become as valid or as known. So, we need to write a book, we just have to have some time.

Mamta Accapadi
It’s interesting, right? So as I hear both, Becky, you and Jamie reflect, you know, Jamie, you just talked about, oh, we oftentimes the the folks that are called upon or they’re the best on their account. because that’s right. So they have all the cookies and the certificates and the, the affirmations of being the best. And then we ask one another, to be in community to do self work not to be the fixer. Right, kind of, as y’all mentioned, but to look within and all of a sudden, like, I think of it, like, the parallel that I often reflect on is, it’s easier for me to my house is really clean when I have a research paper to write. Right? Because, like, you realize what the hard work actually is. So it’s actually, even though it is hard work to do externally facing work, the work that we do on campuses, it’s still that much harder to do the self work, and so we deflect do you all see, do y’all still see that? Or what advice would you give someone like me, that is tempted to look externally?

Jaime Washington
Yeah, cuz I often name that. One of the ways that I protected myself, if you from doing the self work was doing external work, and therefore I was doing the work. So I didn’t, you know, it’s like, I’m out here. I’m out here healing the planet. I have to do to do me. And sad. I said, Oh, but he was he said, Oh, but you do, you can’t really do this work well, if you’re not doing you. So it was actually. And that’s why when I talk with folks who are wanting to do consulting, wants to do training, wanting to be the EIB equity, anti racism leaders. This is the work that if you really want to, again, up your efficacy, have your experience is not just be seen as another talking at do your own work so that when people experience you, they experience authenticity, experience, realness, they experienced genuineness, they experience people who are on a journey, and not finished, but really willing to look at not so not so tied to their PowerPoint. And the slides, that they’re not present with the room and the people and the experiences that are real in the space. So that’s what we hope to generate, and that’s not so tied to the language, and you got to get the right word, and all of those things, because then you can’t really be present with people. And it does also limit the people that you can be present with. Right? Because, you know, much even and we work this all the time, much of even what we do, is is normed on middle class, education, knowing language, all things, because that’s where we come from. But when we’re talking about, like being with people in the work, right, some of the stuff, those words, those boxes, those, those frameworks, and models don’t work. And if it’s not in you, you can’t translate outside of that. Yeah,

Mamta Accapadi
continuing on this thread. So continuing on some of the observations that y’all have noticed around, you know, resistance to self work, or Kathy’s you brought up particularly the post, post murder of George Floyd, summer of reckoning and kind of seeing how the country is reacted in different ways. In addition to those observations, so continuing with sharing those, I know many of us feel heaviness in in trying to do this work and to be present. What would what advice would you give us so as you share continued observations, what advice would you give those of us that feel the heaviness I mean, for the and we all do the work in different ways. So whether we’re directly social justice or diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging educators are facilitators, or you know, if I’m an RA, or you know, if I’m in charge of orientation, or if I lead assessment on my campus, there’s this work there’s heaviness in all of the dimensions. What What would you offer us as a guidance

Kathy Obear
don’t do this alone. munity there are so many lessons from you all as my mentors and one was this kind of whiteness white supremacy culture, do it on your own be the best supposed to just be and Dr. Martinez, I remember the first time you said Kathy just be and I didn’t know the WTF you were talking about. And it took me years and this week I heard myself saying you know the way Being what kind of skills do you want it and it’s just coming out of me and I don’t know if I can describe it. So people feeling heaviness, exhausted, burned out depressed, despair, hopelessness, find people to come together and have those true honest dialogues in a confidential space, whether it’s same race, similar race groups privilege, marginalized cross race, but I’m not sure why people have the capacity in cross race groups to show up without doing harm. But that may not be true of every campus. And to really just get honest, and talk about how we’re doing, and remember hope, and vision, liberation. And really commit to changing the culture of the organization so that community care and self care isn’t just something white women talk about. It is a culture change, to say we have to invest in people and wellness and not keep exploiting them.

Mamta Accapadi
It reminds me of a Sean John Wright who talks about transcending trauma informed care to healing centered engagement. So really moving from that individual space to write a systemic approach to healing, which considers the ecosystems that we’re in Fernan. I recognize that, I just want to be sure that you have a chance to reflect on this to what would you guys what you can relate to?

Vernon Wall
I mean, I think Kathy hit it right, Kathy said it, it’s it really is around relationships, it is around who’s around you. It is around, knowing that we’ve been here before is not new, yeah, just repackaged. There is more intensity. Now, given the culture of social media, given a culture of the rapid fire of information that we received, that we continue to receive. And we will be, we will rise. I mean, we will I mean, the arc of the moral universe is long. But it always bends towards justice. It always does. And I believe that the way that we do this is around focusing on hope, not toxic positivity, but about Ohope, about the fact that we are a part of this, we mold what will happen next. And so what does that look like for us as individuals and as community. And I know that I have people around me that are on this screen right now that at any moment, if I need to have a conversation about something that’s happened in a session, in my life in the world, I know that I can call them I just called Jamie the not too long ago to talk about something that happened in a session that I did. Because I just needed to talk to someone because I was like, Am I missing something? And conversation about? You know, here we are. And, and I and I caught up thinking people that don’t have that cannot do this work effectively, in my mind, because

Jaime Washington
what’s your what’s your name, and again, both of you are worried in relationships community. And that’s the other thing that SJTI creates. So I was with alum yesterday, I was with another loan the day before yesterday, who were talking about their experiences, connecting with their cohorts, and folks that they met and friends that they had and who they could call in spaces and times. And so there is a deepening that happens when you can get in community with folks to have, you know, to move through the tough times. But the other thing that I will say is, again, as Becky often helps us to remember is that it is a mindset, right? You know, we’re going through different things in different moments. I always say, it didn’t start with us, and it won’t end with us. So the main arrogance of believing that we’re going to fix it all, that if we had just the right this and that, and that’s going to make it make, you know, we just have to release that. And then really get clear about, well, what because what you believe about the world and how people capacity to be decent is what you believe about yourself back or like Are you a partner? Are you how’d you somehow get different than the rest of the world like God, what makes you there’s a there’s an arrogance in that. If you show up with well, they they are inherently they can hide it skip you. Right. So it’s important for us to think about how we see our own humanity, and how we see our own capacity to get better and do better and to make mistakes and recover. Right. So it’s like You know, I don’t, I’m not liking you today. I’m not liking this today. But you know, I’m just going to eat. And as an old mentor said to me at once, if it feels too heavy, put it down. And stop carrying that today. Right? You can pick it back up later. But today, just don’t carry it.

becky martinez
Yeah. And I want to add to that, like, allow yourself joy. I think because of the heaviness, and the overwhelming, and I’ve got to take care of this and like, all of this is happening in the world, and I just want to make the world better, more equitable, more inclusive, that we like, we can feel guilty if we’re in a joy space, like this work is joy. If we don’t have joy centered in this work, is it’s not going to work. Right. And so what I appreciate about SJ TI, faculty and community is like, we laugh, like, we laugh, we play, you know, we, we cry. Even at the deep stuff, we’re like, shit, can you believe that? And we just like we allow ourselves joy in this work. And have that be not just okay, but be a practice. Like, how are we practicing joy? And how are we resting? So Jamie, like, it’s okay to put it down, we can come back at it tomorrow. And there’s the, you know, we always talk about if, if we’re, if our cups not full, like, we’re not going to be as good of an instrument for other folks if we’re not good for ourselves. And that’s not selfish. And and so how do we take care of ourselves, not just self care, but how are we caring for ourselves and our spirit and our soul, and our like, X, Y, and Z so that we can go out and do work, like we need rest? We need joy, we need community. And that is the beauty of the SJ ti faculty thread that we have, like such a gift, and it came out of the pandemic, to stay connected, and so find ways to be connected. And they don’t have to be huge and overwhelming. Like they can just be small and be like, so good.

Mamta Accapadi
Oh,

Kathy Obear
so you know, as I hear you, Dr. Tanya Williams, one of our faculty is really weighing on my heart today. And others may have said it, but I hear her saying this is about systemic oppression and white supremacy. And when any individual person I think is exhausted burnt out, I wonder if how much is I’m not good enough. I shouldn’t be better. I can’t. And we’ve already talked about even the history of our own life experiences. So when I refocused on is the system. And Jamie, you say it’s not our fault. It’s our responsibility. That’s I get energy. And the only thing you say, Jaime, that was so helpful to me is do your part. What do you do well, and do your part, you don’t got to do it all? Oh, no. And again, that’s breaking up white supremacy, I’m like, I gotta do it. I was just like, This is what I’m good at. And I might have a couple several lanes, and then support those who have other lanes. And so for both of you, I and others, like, I just said these messages, and then Vernon’s to, when I was in such despair in 2016, several of y’all and plus other folks of color said, Kathy, we’ve been here before our ancestors for centuries have actually were being even more dangerous, genocidal violent death in some ways. And so suck it up white girl. And so how do you like build on with the ancestors and the current folk of color indigenous folks, the wisdom instead of this, I don’t know what to do. And so you give up. So that’s my gentle nudge to the other folks in our privilege identities, particularly white. You want to drop out despair, getting community because that also could be our white privilege. As opposed to what can I offer? What do I need to grow? Who do I need to be in community with so that I don’t drop out? I stay in it for the long haul.

Mamta Accapadi
I can we could talk for days. I what I’d be

Jaime Washington
if you don’t mind. I just want one of you because what you name Kathy is are you doing ourselves for taking care of yourself healing and is allowing folks space to be in the full range of human emotion. Right, right. Yes. And so, you know, white folks in the mid Some believe this horrible stuff who want to show up or who in authenticity are enraged and just bad want to cuss then want to just throw everything and burn it all down, actually get to do that. But when people of color show up in that rage, there’s space for that. And when we we have to stuff all of that. And so when we’re in community, with other white folks, we’re always having to navigate, can they handle my full range of human emotion? Can they handle that I am an absolute joy today, because finally, the verdict was in our favor, right? And or do I have to just, you know, kind of, you know, monitor that mitigate that so that it doesn’t feel like I’m too happy that a white person got, right. And so part of the work, I think, in terms of not being exhausted, is that I get to be fully human, and all the emotional spaces. And we can hold that. And I tell white folks all the time, I need white people who can handle my anger, and not go away. Or else I can’t be fully with you, like I need to be really be able to be mad today in the room with white people. And then and know that they’re going to stay, because then I can get through it. And I don’t have to live there. Right. If I if I’m not able to do that, then that’s the tired, that’s the exhausted, I’m always weighted down with having not being able to show up for real. So I wanted to add that emotional healing is a part of the work so that I’m not so exhausted and stuff, and I can do that healing, when I can be in community, and I can be fully me. And that is also very true for bipoc folk. So when bipod, folks is that you need to calm down, or you know, you’re being too much, Aaron. He’s so angered and not gonna hear us at all that if you are the attention often is support and love and protection. But it can also be stifling, because then I I’m the wrong one, but you’re the right one. Because you didn’t make them feel uncomfortable. Right. And that we’re using the lens of race right now. But that happens across all right, subordinated identities, right, you know, trans people quieted down, you know, I know, I know, he missed gender you again, but you know, you got to give him a chance. You know, it’s just hard. And we got to be able to handle the full range.

becky martinez
Full range. Yes. And one of my full ranges is I cry, like, I emote through tears. And I believe it’s such a beauty and a gift to myself. But like how do people not code that or name that is I’m weak, right? Or I’m just too emotional. And so Jamie is I hear full range of emotion. It can be in this space of like anger, but can also be in the space of like, pain or sadness that I am showing. And how do we create spaces for people to be in their wholeness and know that oh, the reaction to tears is about me. It’s not about Becky, right, Becky is being Becky in this space and fullness and wholeness. And that is such a gift of SJ ti as we think about being able to be and to show up as you

Mamta Accapadi
absolutely. So I’d be remiss if I didn’t, you know, as we’re as we’re honoring and celebrating 25 years, as we look to the future, what hopes do you carry for the future?

Jaime Washington
The future So Brad, I have to wear shades. I it was at our last Institute where we began even more as founding faculty to step back and to watch the next generation lead. Do all the things that you know, for for many of the years were coded as Jamie’s parts or Kathy’s parts? Right? And I remember very much entered energetically where I felt like we find it’s all gonna be good And, you know, it’s not going to look exactly the same way that we did it. But what’s in the people that’s coming along is the intentions of healing the planet. With a social justice, anti racism, lens, loving humanity lens, it’s in them, the technology, the pedagogy, the tools that we use, again, I fully expect them to get enhanced and revamped, and all those things, but the intentions remain. And I get excited about what, what we will see coming. And things that I’ve not even imagined. So I mean, I feel hope, and newness, right, you know, so 25 years, it’s a significant contribution. And so I know that in the next, you know, several years, you know, it’ll be time to kind of step back more to, you know, hand off more in this, I’m coming off of the season of orientations, right. And watching Parents handoff their babies. And it can feel very much like that, right, trusting that we’ve done the good work. And that these are next gen folks are prepared, and they will do fine.

Kathy Obear
And as we started with Mamta, and then someone, and then Vic, and then we have changed the curriculum based on the new voices, voices, if I were to look back in the last particularly five years think we have shifted and tweaked. So I expect evolution. So I joined you that, especially in this time of onslaught of Breeland, violent racist, white supremacist fascism, that I realized I was always always there. But I was like, naive, like things are changing. And it is different than I think 567 years ago, the dynamics are in that Sgt. I might also need to shift given the context that we’re in that the context of the attack of what we can even teach on campuses, or can we have DEI programs and centers and this anti CRT and so there are just so many more onslaught and attack that’s in our legislation, that it could be I believe, all that we do with folks will prepare for this these times. And there might be other things we haven’t yet thought of, as you said, given the context we’re in and I pray will be in a different context soon. But for now, in the next few years. So I expect evolution, and I expect to keep learning, even when I’m not at every SJTI and eventually, when I’m not at any of them, I look forward to continuing to learn from these Dear Dear colleagues and friends and participants, because that’s where I get a lot of it.

becky martinez
Yeah, I had to pull out my Kleenex as folks saw on that question. Um, so yeah, like, evolution, being able to shift, right, like, I’m a lover of nature, and how can we like follow nature’s guidance of like change and fluidity and growth and, and I like so as the bridge, my hope is, is that we can also keep the ethos of those four friends that came up with this idea. Right, this space of giving back this space of community, this space of learning, this space of like joy and friendship and, and working on our stuff and contributing a contribution to not just the participants to the people that the participants will come in contact with. Right. And so I hope to have fun. I hope to learn, I hope that we learn, I hope that we shift as I’m continuing to have more goals that we can just be grounded in the legacy of Besh, TTI and the legacy of Jamie Kathy Vernon and Maura. That is that is really important for me as the bridge.

Mamta Accapadi
That’s wonderful. So beautiful. Thank you. Thank you so much. For again, we could have several conversations and I’m just so grateful to have had time and spirit for this one. So thank you again so much becky, Jamie, Kathy Vernon, for your time and spirit today as guests on Student Affairs NOW for our listeners and folks who are watching the podcast, you can learn more about the social justice training institute at sjti.org. For those of us who may be alumni of the program, I know that there will be lots of different ways to honor SJTI in the year to come and of course and beyond, it’s active and always. So thank you again. So with that, I also want to be sure and now I want to thank our sponsors Symplicity again, we really appreciate your support. Symplicity is a global leader in student services technology platforms with state of the art technology that empowers institutions to make data driven decisions specific to their goals. A true partner to the institution Symplicity supports all aspects of student life, including but not limited to career services, development, Student Conduct and wellbeing, students success and accessibility services. To learn more visit symplicity.com. I also want to send so much love to Nat Ambrosey, the producer for the podcast, who does all of the behind the scenes work to make us look and sound good, Nat we love you. And friends if you’re listening today and already not may not be receiving our weekly newsletter, please visit the website at studentaffairsnow.com and scroll to the bottom of the homepage to add your email to the MailChimp list. And while you’re there, check out the archives. My friends my name is Mamta Accapadi is so much love and gratitude to everyone who is watching and listening. Please make it a beautiful week that honors your soul your spirit and your ancestral wisdom. It’s always a gift to be in community with you. Be well my friends.

Websites:

https://sjti.org/

www.drkathyobear.com 

www.infinitymartinez.com

https://www.vernonwall.org/

www.washingtonconsultinggroup.net