Frank Shushok, Jr.: Yeah. I trip and stumble and fall and say dumb things and regret things and are learning things and, and, uh, and in some ways I think that’s part of the resilience it takes to be, um, a really good leader, uh, not saying that I am, but that people want to see people who are real and, and, you know, the greatest thing about people who are real is, you know, you have to, yeah.

See me to be me, you know, that, that idea that, you know, you, you have to see people who struggle in the ways that you struggle to say, oh, you know, in spite of that struggle, he’s where he is. And, you know, I have a, a line of people who want to talk to me about being, uh, learning disabled because I’ve shared that I’m learning disabled and they, they say, gosh, wow, if he can do that, I can do that.

Keith Edwards: Hello, and welcome to Student Affairs Now. I’m your host, Keith Edwards. Today we’re discussing the path from Student Affairs to the College Presidency. This is an episode request from several of our community members. I’m excited to have three college presidents who came to the role through Student Affairs talk about their preparation, transition, and their new learnings.

Student Affairs Now is the premier podcast and online learning community for thousands of us who work in, alongside, or adjacent to the field of higher education and Student Affairs. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays. Find details about this episode or browse our archives at studentaffairsnow.

com. Today’s episode is sponsored by Symplicity. A true partner, Symplicity supports all aspects of student life with technology platforms that empower institutions to make data driven decisions. As I mentioned, I’m your host, Keith Edwards. My pronouns are he, him, his. I’m a speaker, consultant, and coach, and you can find out more about me at keithedwards. com. I’m broadcasting from Minneapolis, Minnesota at the intersections of the ancestral homelands of both the Dakota in the Ojibwe peoples. Uh, let’s get to our conversation. I’m so grateful to have all three of you here. Uh, our schedulers were thrilled and amazed and stunned when we were able to find mutually agreeable time.

So thank you for that. Let’s just hear a bit from each of you in terms of introduction, if you just want to say a little bit about your role and just a little bit about your path, and then we’ll get more into that. And Dr. Lori White, we’re going to start with you.

Lori White: Hello, everyone. I’m Lori White. I’m the 21st president of DePauw University, small liberal arts college in Greencastle, Indiana.

I spent 40 plus years working in student affairs, eight years as a vice president for student affairs. Never imagined that I would one day be a college president. And in fact, that’s why I’m so excited about this conversation to talk about the ways in which my experiences as a vice president for student affairs Prepared me well for the presidency.

Keith Edwards: Awesome. Thank you for being here. Frank, let’s hear

Frank Shushok, Jr.: more about you. All right. Well, gosh, Lori, I was thinking 40 years before this. Unbelievable. I’m Frank Shushock. I use he, him, uh, his pronouns. And, uh, I, uh, you know, like Lori in so many ways, life has been a beautiful surprise. I’ve been surprised at every turn of life.

And, uh, you know, I like to say that because I think so many people think, um, when you’re young that. People had it all figured out. And we don’t, we, we learn as we go and we say yes to opportunities right in front of us and we, uh, take advantage of good people who see talent in us before we see it in ourselves.

And, uh, we say yes to people who want to coach and mentor us. And those are all just incredible things and that’s. . That’s kind of my, my story. I grew up in a small town in Texas. We didn’t have a single stoplight, uh uh, I would actually struggled with learning in high school and, um, you know, I talked my way into college and it was there that I, I really learned, um, how to learn and, and learned about some gifts and talents I had and, and, uh, you know, it was that experience, uh, falling in love with learning for the very first time in, in college.

That I saw people doing what I now know as student affairs work and I said, gosh, I want to do with do that. I want to be the people, the kind of person that has doing what people do for me and and that got me on a journey that. I would have never imagined it would land here, but just recently, prior to being in this role for 10 months, as the 12th president of Roanoke College, I was the vice president for student affairs at Virginia Tech, and I’m learning so much and having a ton of fun.

Roanoke has

Lori White: had fewer presidents than DePauw.

Frank Shushok, Jr.: Amazing, isn’t it? What year was DePaw founded?

Lori White: Uh,

Frank Shushok, Jr.: 1837. Wow. And so we’re 1842. So that’s amazing, isn’t it? Yeah. Yeah.

Keith Edwards: Long 10 years there. Rob Kelly, tell us some more about you.

Rob Kelly: Sure. Uh, Rob Kelly. I’m the 21st president at the university of Portland. Um, and, uh, came to this role, uh, in that, in that position in July of 22.

And, um, you know, a little bit about my background is. I believe the biggest choices you can make are, you know, where to go to college, who to partner with, who to spend your time with, who to work with. And, um, luckily, um, I have been, and thankfully I have been around people who have cared about me as a person, um, have looked out for me, were great storytellers and guides along the way.

And so that’s kind of how I ended up in, in, in a position such as this. Um, As an undergraduate student at Loyola, Maryland, um, getting to know the, the dean of students and the president of the year of, uh, at the time, the president of the college, um, but then having them kind of be guides and storytellers along the way.

So I ended up, um, eventually going into student affairs. Uh, when I made that decision, I remember someone said, you’re going to throw your life away. You need to get a law degree or a Ph. D. in English or something like that. Um, and I thought, well, that’s not really what I what I what I want to do. And I remember saying to my parents.

These are the people that have really shaped me and have guided me along the way, and I want to do something like that for other, for other young, other students. And so I ended up going into student affairs, um, eventually got my first vice presidency at Seattle University, then went on to Loyola, Chicago, um, and then at Loyola, Maryland, uh, my alma mater.

That’s really kind of how I ended up in this kind of a position. Think about who we’re around, who gives us joy, um, and who can tell us really good stories, uh, to shed light on the world.

Frank Shushok, Jr.: And Keith, let me just mention, I can tell you some good stories about Rob Kelly. You know, all, just to be clear, I shared an office with Rob Kelly at the University of Maryland when we were in graduate school.

And some of those stories aren’t appropriate for this conversation. But I’m available offline and it goes both ways.

Keith Edwards: Okay. All right. That’s what we refer to as mutually assured destruction, right? That that’s how we keep the peace there. Uh, as you can tell, uh, this is not going to be a boring presidential conversation.

So, uh, thanks to all of you for being here. Um, I want to ask each of you, how has student affairs, uh, prepared you for this role? There’s a unique experience. As all of you talked to you, you talked about. Coaches and mentors and guides who helped in your personal journey, but you all have a student affairs background.

Um, how has student affairs prepared you for this role? Uh, let’s begin with Rob.

Rob Kelly: Sure. You know, in student affairs, we learn a lot about like kind of identity development and psychology and especially within the social sciences, but we deal so much with building community. How to have a tough conversation with somebody, and I’m amazed at how often, um, you know, being a college president is also like being the mayor of a small town and how often I have to have.

Build community, have a tough conversation, manage disputes or perceptions of what could be a dispute. And in student affairs, we do that all the time, day in, day out. We’re constantly giving people feedback and course correcting. Giving people the knowledge, skills, awareness, tools that they can make decisions for themselves.

So while some people say, gosh, the presidency, you have ultimate power of what goes on on campus. You actually don’t, but you do have, you do have the pulpit, you do have the position where you can say certain things and you can spend time and you can show up and that shares, um, illustrates what the values are of the institution, but I find we do so much of that in student affairs as, uh, often I would talk about us being the conscience of the institution in student affairs.

We have to do more of that in the role of the presidency. And so I think that it was outstanding preparation for me to have that background and to then come into this position.

Keith Edwards: And I’m hearing a little bit about leading through influence.

Lori White: So. Yeah, I’m going to say that Rob such great points.

I really undervalued the preparation of student affairs for this role. So, when folks started approaching me 1st about considering a presidency 1st, let me say. Because 80% of presidents don’t look anything like me, I thought to myself, those are roles for other people for me. And it took, as each of you have said, you know, somebody who saw something in me that I hadn’t yet seen in myself for me to even lean into the possibility of being a college president.

And so Of the three of us, I’m actually the senior member of the team in terms of longevity in the role. And the only reason that I say that is because I started my presidency in COVID. It was named president March 9th or 10th, 2020. And then a week later, the entire world turned upside down. And so the way in which my student affairs experience prepared me as a new president to make the kind of complex decisions that most new presidents wouldn’t have to make in their first weeks on the job, being able to lead in crisis situations.

That’s what we do every day in student affairs. As Rob said, being able to Um, get people gathered as a community around this idea of making tough decisions, um, keeping people motivated, uplifted, um, in the midst of all kinds of challenges. And then understanding that we have already had great experiences managing complex organizations.

And so all of those things presidents do. And all of that I had to do in warp speed as a president who took over and had to lead the institution through COVID.

Keith Edwards: You’re making me think about, you know, a most traditional path is professor, chair, dean, provost. I wonder if you think that there’s a benefit to student affairs not being in a particular discipline, not being a physics trained and so specific thing, because you’ve talked already about the complexity of problems and the many sides.

I’m wondering if maybe our Our breadth of preparation rather than a narrow focus on a particular academic discipline, uh, gives us greater capacity to navigate health, community, policy, emergency, virology, all of those things kind of merging together.

Frank Shushok, Jr.: Yeah. You know, one of the things I was gonna say about Lori is I heard her.

I don’t know if you said it from a perspective of surprise, Lori, but it really stuck with me when we were together and you said it and I’m, I’ve discovered I’m really good at this and, and I suspect it’s related to that student affairs training that you’re talking about. I wonder, um, if you could reflect a little bit about what surprised you about being really good at being a college president.

Lori White: I think it’s because We have always been told that the path to the presidency is through the academic side of the university, being a department chair, being a dean, being a provost, and then being a president. And as it turns out, really, I think. All of that is not necessarily relevant to being good in the job.

Certainly, I think there is a tendency for search committees to lean into people who have been faculty members. But Keith, to your point, I think regardless of the discipline, if you’ve only been a faculty member, you don’t have the broad perspective of leadership that we all have based on our student affairs experiences.

And so, each day… The more that I did the job, the better I understood I was at it and finally had to say to myself as I looked in the mirror, I’m a really good college president.

Frank Shushok, Jr.: I love that.

Rob Kelly: Even think about when we were all serving in these various roles, I would look at the two of you, Lori and Frank, and say, okay.

Gosh, okay. I understand, like, what they’re doing because each of you were excelling in things like fundraising, teaching, writing, crisis management, inspiring people. I mean, all the kinds of things that we have to do day in, day out, let alone the supervision and all that kind of stuff of people and executing really cool, complex ideas.

But gosh, we did other things, too. And I think that our experience in student affairs, we were really blessed to be in various positions at institutions that also allowed us to do something else. So we walked into the position, not just with the thing of, oh, I was a faculty member, but gosh, I did a number of different things.

Again, all these things are really important. But ultimately, I find inspiring. We had to inspire people day in, day out, inspiring our students, inspiring our teams, our faculty, whatever the case might be. I find I had to bring that to the, to the table every single day as president.

Keith Edwards: Well, and all three of you didn’t think about, all three of you didn’t think about yourself as just strictly student affairs and state and lane.

All three of you, particularly in your last role, had pretty expansive, I don’t know if we would even call them student affairs roles. I, I

Lori White: wanted to get back, uh, to something that I really admire about Rob and Frank. And I also think, This is what makes us I think pretty good college presidents is we lead is our full authentic selves.

Like I love the way Frank shows up with his dog and shows up with, you know, all of his Frank isms, you know, I love Rob’s, you know, sense of humor and, you know, I don’t know that you always get that from a president who hasn’t come out of the student affairs world. So Frank, if you could talk a little bit about, you know, how you decided to show up as your full authentic.

Frank Shushock self that we all love.

Frank Shushok, Jr.: Oh, gosh, Laurie. Thank you. That is so nice. And I’m just pausing a second that that, um, you know, I think the interesting thing about my old roommate, uh, office mate, Rob Kelly, is that he thinks he’s funny.

Yes, and that is his authentic self that we, but, you know, um. Gosh, uh, Lori, I’ve always been taken with this quote from Parker Palmer’s, why does it take me until I was 40 to discover who I’ve always been? You know, I, I think one of the challenges of growing up is, is learning that you are who you are. That is, that is who you are.

And the sooner that we can be comfortable being who we are, the better. And, uh, you know, I, I think along the way, I’ve just learned to be okay with. Being my whole self and, and I mean, I share very openly that I struggled mightily with a learning disability, uh, growing up and that I, I mean, honestly, I barely graduated from high school, but I’ll tell you the truth, I did not share that publicly or really with friends and colleagues until I was 40.

And it was because I was embarrassed about that. And I thought, well, you know, in academia, you know, I didn’t want to, you know, let people in on that. But along the way, and I have to think reading and good mentors and people who, who you just realize people are most effective when you trust that they’re being who they really are and part of being who you are is not perfect.

I mean, golly, I mean, Yeah. I, I, I trip and stumble and fall and say dumb things and regret things and are learning things and, and, uh, and in some ways I think that’s part of the resilience it takes to be, um, a really good leader, uh, not saying that I am, but that people want to see people who are real and, and, you know, the greatest thing about people who are real is, you know, you have to, yeah.

See me to be me, you know, that, that idea that, you know, you, you have to see people who struggle in the ways that you struggle to say, oh, you know, in spite of that struggle, he’s where he is. And, you know, I have a, a line of people who want to talk to me about being, uh, learning disabled because I’ve shared that I’m learning disabled and they, they say, gosh, wow, if he can do that, I can do that.

And that, that’s, you know, that’s all of us.

Keith Edwards: Um, you know, I think one of the reasons we wanted to host this episode is because we have so many people wanting to know about the experience of student affairs practitioners and going into the presidency. I think there are many student affairs professionals who are thinking about this or toying with the idea or wondering maybe one day, some more seriously than others, but many I think are unsure how to make that transition.

You know, I’ve been a VP for 15 years, but I don’t get any calls about presidencies making that transition. What have you all learned about making the shift from student affairs to college president? Um, Frank, maybe you can start with

Frank Shushok, Jr.: you. Oh, gosh. You know, I want to back up. I heard Rob say something about, um, you know, his, his journey and, you know, part of me feels like it starts with a disposition of, uh, saying yes to opportunities that are right in front of you and, and, and trying new things and not being afraid to, to try new things.

And I’m going to triple down on this. There is no one single path to the presidency and lots of people are going to give you narratives. Yes. that say you have to do this. In fact, they’ll say this about becoming a chief student affairs officer or being a dean of students where you have to do this or you have to go to this kind of school or uh, whatever.

I just think for every one of those, I can give you five examples of uh, where it wasn’t the case. And so, you know, that’s why playing to who you are, um, saying yes to opportunities right in front of you. Um, investing in opportunities to get to know other leaders are, are all really, really important, important things.

So, uh, it seems to me that the pathway to the presidency, um, has been, you know, started back when I was a residence hall director at Ohio State, you know, I, I took my, you know, every time I, when I applied for an assistantship at Ohio State, I wanted those Because I had done student activities as a college, a college student.

That was the only assistantship I wanted was in, was in student activities. And lo and behold, the one assistantship I did not want, which was working in housing, is the one that I got. And, and then, you know, I did that and I realized, oh my gosh, I love, I love housing. And so I applied for residence hall director jobs and I landed at my campus where I got a residence hall director job and They said we need someone to work in fraternity and sorority life and before I even started and so I did that in an interim way.

So just saying yes and being flexible and asking yourself what you can learn is surprisingly is the path to. Greater responsibility and greater contribution, I think, because you’re willing to serve, serve where you’re needed and to serve the institution in a particular time and to learn new things. And most importantly.

It seems like learning to fail and then feeling comfortable with failing or not knowing something to try something new. I don’t know what Rob and Lori think about that, but it’s kind of, it’s kind of a different way of thinking about, you know, what’s the pathway to the presidency? I mean, um, gosh, I love Robert Greenlee’s idea, serve first and people will ask you to lead, you know, just serve, you know, get your hands dirty, do what needs to be done, say yes, surround yourself with good, positive people and think about possibilities and opportunities.

Rob Kelly: I think about the experience of, um, my one of my favorite jobs that I’ve had throughout my entire career was when I was a hall advisor. I had like, I’ve already I’d never been an RA before. I had 5 RAs and like 150 students. And a little building and Burlington, Vermont, the University of Vermont. I thought that was such a great job to have.

But I also think you have to say, thank God for unanswered prayers because there’s been some jobs I’ve applied for and I thank goodness. I didn’t get that job. Oh, my goodness. It’s been a good fit. It really wouldn’t have been a good fit. And when we try to kind of be something else or do something else.

Things turn out badly and even even like kind of to put yourself out there to have that, like, I’m gonna put myself out there to apply for a presidency and not get it like that’s huge and one of my professors had once said, find the truth and what you oppose. And the error in what you believe, because sometimes I think in student affairs and probably any, any field of profession, you can, you can, you can drink the Kool Aid and believe you are right about everything and you have a beat on the institution and who’s committed and who’s not committed.

And I think we have to say, you know what, let me just take a step back and listen. And learn. And hear from other people, and I find that then you’re, you open yourselves up to the possibility of things that you never thought might be possible, or people can see you in a way that you maybe you didn’t back to Lori’s point.

You didn’t see for yourself. Yeah, I found that that just being open to it. Allows me to think of myself differently and allows other people to see me differently. You know, I don’t know. I don’t know if I ever thought I would take that would have taken this path to a presidency. Um, at one point, I remember thinking I’m working too much.

I have like, I have like 3 or 4 jobs. I was thinking. And yet I have to constantly bring myself back to what’s bringing me joy. Am I, where can I find the joy in what I’m doing? Because we cannot lead from a place of crisis management. Often happens in student affairs. You focus on the crisis and you try to lead from the crisis.

That’s not life giving and eventually get burned out.

Lori White: You know, Frank, you said something about being called to serve. And when people ask me, do I love my job? I say, I loved being a vice president for student affairs. I would have done that for the rest of my life and happily retired from that job. I feel called to serve as president at this place in this moment.

And. The types of experiences that I think have led all of us to be successful are, you know, we’ve already talked about the broad perspective that you get as a vice president for student affairs. And then there are the specific things that search committees will be looking for when you throw your hat in the ring for being a college president.

So they want to know that you know how to raise money. And many of us get engaged in fundraising, even if it’s not at the formal level of the university, raise money for our church for our fraternity or sorority, or those of us who are involved in NASPA. I’m on the foundation board. We raise money in that way.

And so those are ways in which we can share that we have experiences in fundraising, even if we haven’t done it formally at the institution. It’s important to have experience in academic affairs, which all three of us do. We’ve all served as professors. Adjunct professors, clinical professors, professors of practice, whatever the term is, we’re all active in our scholarship, and that’s important to particularly if you don’t come out of the faculty, the faculty want to know that you understand their world, and so if you don’t yet have a faculty appointment, then you should figure out a way to negotiate that.

And keep up with some level of writing and research that is really important as well. And then, you know, the sweet spot for us is that we love students. And so when we’re able to talk about the central role of our work is to make sure that our students are able to achieve their hopes and their dreams, that gives us a huge advantage over candidates in the pool who don’t work with students in the same way that we do.

And there’s also, you know, other kinds of parts and pieces that are important. Athletics, uh, Rob oversees a division one athletic program. Both Frank and I are division three, division three. Um, we, 30% of our first year class are student athletes, and so having an affinity for athletics and knowing something about that is important as well.

And enrollment management, enrollment management, enrollment management management until May 1st to see whether we’re going to make our numbers, how much people are going to pay all of that. And so I can’t underestimate the importance of getting exposed to the enrollment management operation. At your current institution.

Frank Shushok, Jr.: Did you hear that pain point in those two words enrollment management?

Keith Edwards: I think it goes back to student affairs folks being familiar with the challenges of enrollment management and discount rates and numbers and yield and what may first means we may not do that work but we’re familiar with it whereas I think other folks this is another place where the breadth of the student affairs.

Even if it’s not work we do, it’s work we’re connected to, and we’re, we’re in other ways. Go ahead, Rob. And then I want

Rob Kelly: to, well, no, I would say we’re very much connected to it. And often like we say, oh, I don’t do fundraising. I don’t do enrollment management. No, you do. If it’s done right, if it’s done right on that campus, it’s involving everybody.

Like none of our positions should ever be, well, you’re this, this is the box you fit in, and we have to always fight against saying, Okay. Yeah, this is where I am. This is my love. Students are the reason for being at the institution, but gosh, we do so much more. What has led us to this is so much more, whether it’s enrollment or fundraising or teaching.

Keith Edwards: I’m fortunate to, uh, coach several college presidents and coach several soon to be college presidents, I believe. And I think the takeaway for me here is this, um, don’t look for the path, but be willing to find your path. Oh,

Frank Shushok, Jr.: I love that, Keith. That’s

Keith Edwards: great. And I think so many people are trying to, what’s the recipe I need to follow rather than, here’s what I want to create, here’s the path I want to create.

Lori White: Keith, can I add just one piece to that? And be driven because you’re passionate about the work, not because of the title. Because if you’re just after the accolades. These jobs are too

Rob Kelly: hard. It’s, it’s not, it’s, it’s all good. Right? Like, so, so I want to take the violins out and start complaining. It’s not that much money.

It’s not that much respect. I mean, you’ve got to love being with students, helping the institution thrive, supporting faculty. You got to love that whole arc of what the job is more than just having the position.

Frank Shushok, Jr.: Always say here, I heard the saying, you might want to be president, but do you want to do president?

Exactly. Those are very different things. And I just want to triple down on what Lori said about. Loving students and their success because that is our that is our product. And that’s enough. If you care and love and inspired by that, that will drive you through some really tough roads. Yeah,

Keith Edwards: you all have worked with college presidents your whole career, right?

Some of them you barely. Wouldn’t even talk to you, others you knew very closely and worked with all the time. Uh, and I assume as you decided to even consider or aspire pretty distantly, uh, about these roles, you started observing college presidents, your own and others through a different lens and really understood it’s kind of on the job training.

Um, but now that you’ve been in these roles for 10 months, uh, maybe, maybe almost two years, maybe a year, uh, and then Lori, maybe three years. Um, what has really surprised you despite all that observing, despite all that learning, despite all of that knowing, what has been unexpected about this in your time?

We’ll start with Lori.

Lori White: So unexpected for me is I mentioned I’m the first woman to serve in this role. I’m the first African American president. The only reason I mentioned that is I certainly will be glad one day when we’re not celebrating the first, even though I’m very proud to serve in those two roles here is I’m surprised about how much that matters to my students.

So when I see. Women students on campus there. Oh, my God. I’m fangirling when I see African American students on campus. They’re just so proud. And so representation matters. And I was surprised about how much that makes a difference, not only here on my campus, but also to women and people of color who aspire to be involved, who feel like I can do it now that I see you, Lori, in this role.

Keith Edwards: Well, and not just that role, but CEO or elected representative, right? It’s about possibilities broader. Yeah.

Rob Kelly: And similarly, um, I, I’m the first African American president, the first lay person. Um, at this institution, we’ve always had a priest, um, in the position of president and that it manifests itself in very interesting ways, um, on campus as well as with our students.

But I find that, you know, Students want to be seen, and faculty want to be heard, and staff want to know that they matter. And so I often spend a lot of time really focusing on making sure that that happens with those audiences. But I, what I’ve come to believe is, there’s no casual musings. Like, I can’t walk on campus like, I wonder, wonder if we should just do this, or I wonder, why is that over there?

Because what happens is people hear it, and often there’s this feeling of, oh, I want to make sure the president Is happy or the president understands what’s going on. And so people have changed the color of walls like because I made a comment. One day in passing or kind of were you upset about something today?

Because I might have been looking at my phone and not joyfully engaged in the life of the campus from where I parked my car to walk to my office, paying attention to those things I think is really important for a president. And I’ve seen some presidents be so wonderfully engaged in the life of the institution.

I’ve also seen some presidents not be or complain about things. And I’m like, wow, that’s really helpful. Do you not want to be the president and do the presidential job right now? And it happens. So you learn from the good and you also learn from the challenging.

Keith Edwards: I want to add to that because I remember Brian Rosenberg, who was the president of Macalester College when I was there, who I have a lot of respect for, talked about, um, He was the campus mascot.

And everywhere he went, he represented the institution. And how he parked his car in front of the coffee shop two miles away, he had to assume someone connected to the college was going to walk, watch how he parked his car and judge the institution based on that. And so this sort of always being on, and I remember getting into a fluff about he didn’t like the cookies at one reception.

And so we got to change the recipe or never have those again. I’m just thinking. I’m not sure he meant that. I just thought maybe he didn’t want to have another cookie. Um, but that, um, not only is it, it is a microphone, but people are listening to every little thing you say and do and how you say it and what you don’t say as well.

And so the microscope is, is really up close.

Rob Kelly: You know, it’s, it’s interesting. And I, I know this is, is the case with both Frank and Lori is that just having, having someone, you can bounce some ideas off of who can say to you. , you might be president out there , but not here in, in this house or not at this moment right now.

Or that, that’s a, that’s kind of a crazy idea. No one told you it was crazy today, but I’m here to tell you. Right. So kind of those, those life partners and really good friends and, and, and spouses. Mm-hmm. , it’s important that we have truth tellers in our life. Right,

Keith Edwards: because even when people do tell you the truth, you don’t know how to take it.

Are they, are they angling for something? Are they doing something? People maybe don’t tell you the truth. And so having people who can help you keep your rudder, um, so important. Frank, what’s been surprising for

Frank Shushok, Jr.: you? Okay, these are three random connections, but I was, I was joking. And Rob, I’m sorry I didn’t return your text last night.

He sent me a text message saying, do you have time to commiserate? So that’s, I think that’s, you know, what, what, what was, what was going on there. Okay, so here’s a really honest statement. I, I, um, I knew this job would be hard. I didn’t know it would be this hard. I really didn’t. I mean, this is a small college of 2, 000 students and I was a vice president of a ginormous division at Virginia Tech with 3, 000 employees and ginormous budget.

I thought, okay, I can do this. I mean, I thought, but it’s It is a, it is a hard job and I thought I’d just share this is, I got a really lovely note from someone, uh, who has retired from here, but, uh, he’s just been an encourager. And so I just said thank you for encouraging me. And, and he wrote back last night, he shared this.

He said, having spent the last five years working in the president’s office as senior advisor, I got to see firsthand how really hard and demanding the president’s job is. It’s living in a fishbowl, balancing the myriad of needs and demands of various constituencies, responding to the occasional emergency while trying to strategically plot the college’s future amidst turbulent times and trying to be the best spouse and father or friend.

This is a tall order that not everyone can accomplish successfully. And I, I just thought, Oh, my gosh, he understands how I feel and that I candidly didn’t really understand. Um, but the last thing I would say, when I was the editor of about campus, um. I, I interviewed Beverly Daniel Tatum and she, when she was still president, when she was recently retired from president, uh, being president of Spelman, and she talked about you got to understand the difference between, uh, you know, she said like when people want to take a selfie with you, they don’t want to take a selfie with you.

Right. They want to take a selfie with the president and that you have to really understand that what people are attaching to is the role you play and it’s not you at all. So her point was, if you think if this is feeding your ego, you’re in trouble. And on the flip side, she was also went on to say when people put hard stuff on you or unfair stuff, that they’re often putting it on the role.

And not you, and those two things just continue to resonate with me.

Keith Edwards: Yeah , I just told the leader, uh, who was having a tough time earlier today, and Frank will use the example, this is not feedback for Frank, this is feedback for the president. And the better you understand that distinction, the better you’ll be able to take it, consider it, not be defensive, not take it personally, this is feedback for the leader.

And

Frank Shushok, Jr.: that is hard, it is very, I don’t know how to say it, it’s hard. This is so hard for me, not, you know, to, to, to try to remember that you’re, you’re, you’re a, you’re, you’re in a role, a symbolic role that often doesn’t have as much power as people attribute to it. Um, and they’re, um, bringing to that role all sorts of things that are, um, when it’s good, it’s often not about you, and when it’s bad, it’s not often about you, and, and, uh, and that’s, that’s hard.

Man, that’s a mental exercise that I have to really embrace.

Keith Edwards: And I think most of us as humans, when it’s good and we get the compliments, we go, Oh, that’s not about me. It’s look at all the good people who are working here. But when it’s criticism, we go, Oh, that is.

Frank Shushok, Jr.: Yeah, it’s like,

Lori White: Well, the role has changed so much over the years. You know, when I think about predecessors, Even here at DePauw, you know, they were able to be much more distant from the community, much more formal. And, you know, that is not now what people expect of presidents. You know, they want to get to know us. They want to be close.

Right, exactly. Everybody feels like they should have. access to us in ways that were never expected years ago. So the role has really changed and the complexity of things that we have to make decisions about has also changed. So it’s a much different role now than it was, you know, even 10 years ago.

Rob Kelly: And Lori, I was just, when you said that, it made me think of the presidency in a way, and I think our student affairs background helps us to deal with this, but people come at us from all different kinds of angles.

Yes. All different kinds of things, and all of it seems to get manifested in the position of the president. You know, so you’re, you’re responsible for everything that’s good, and you’re responsible for everything that’s a, that’s a challenge for the institution, but the ways in which people come at, come at, and so throwing certain things and ideas and, and then how, how that, how that’s a challenge.

Based culturally, um, kind of what’s going on in our political landscape. I mean, all of those things are coming up, which is all the more reason why our backgrounds and student affairs is helpful to allow us to handle these kinds of challenges and turmoil out there in the larger community. It helps us.

Keith Edwards: You’re all reminding me of the importance of self work too, and I think that’s the kind of thing that our student affairs grad programs and student affairs work and student affairs professional development, I think, gives us opportunities to a lot more of our own self work and this own sort of self awareness and self management, uh, than I think many faculty or deans kind of preparations get, because all three of you are pointed to the importance of Vulnerability and authenticity and not being perfect and being able to make mistakes and learn from them and be present and be of service.

And I think that, um, that seems to be very, very critical to the success that the three of you have had.

Frank Shushok, Jr.: I was just going to add that, you know, Rob and Lori have a complexity that I don’t have and I think being a president of color is, I mean, it’s a layer of complexity that, um, uh, I would be curious what you would have to say about that.

I know you’ve already talked about. How important it is, um, for aspiring students or for, but, but, um, especially in this time. It’s, it’s hard. I, I can imagine in ways that might not be the same for me. I’m curious what you think about that.

Rob Kelly: No, I, I, I think that it’s, it’s true in the ways in which, um, you know, for some people they see the skin color.

Uh, that’s, that’s their first lens by which I’m going to view and I’m going to assess. What’s going on at the institution based on that on challenges based on that and I kind of go, Okay, well, let’s let’s kind of play it back. Would you have done the same if X, Y, and Z or if I showed up in a different different skin or my gender was different to do those same things apply.

And I find when we can As an example, a faculty member shared, have we lost our way? And they were talking about how we lost our way because of X, Y and Z issue, the woke agenda, whatever, whatever the case might be out in the world. And I, the question is, lost our way to where? , where, where were we going before that?

All of a sudden now this is a, this is a change, this is a new direction. . Well, yeah, we, we have to be able to ask that question back and put it back on. Cause otherwise we get on the, on the defensive. So I, Frank, I really appreciate you even saying that. Mm-hmm. . Um, and recognizing that I think it’s true. Um, I think it’s a greater weight on Lori given the gender issue Yeah.

In higher education. Mm-hmm. . So, and, and it

Lori White: has been quite interesting having. So much of my career advocating for issues of racial equity, diversity, inclusion, social justice. I, Rob, you talked about one of your most favorite jobs. One of the best jobs I ever had was the director of the multicultural center at UC Irvine early in my career and learned so much about leadership and use those skills even today in my current role.

However, when I was a vice president of student affairs advocating. For those issues, people expected the vice president of student affairs to play that particular role on campus on the cabinet, and I never got much pushback from that come to my current institution where we previous to my arrival. Those values were articulated.

We are founded by the United Methodist Church. I feel like that’s really part of what John Wesley would call us to do is to create an environment. Yes. Um, where all students feel affirmed, supported and that they belong yet. Now, when I advocate for those same values, it is heard, as you just said, Rob, through the lens of the African American president trying to make the institution more woke, even though I know my predecessors.

advocated for the same. Similarly, alumni wondering if the university is going not in the right direction, et cetera. And so it’s been tough to walk that line at the same time. I know there are folks on campus who share my identity, who expect for me to be even more vocal about the issues that they have long cared about, where they felt.

They never were given voice to. So it’s been an interesting set of challenges. I still feel like I’m working my way through them. So I appreciate Frank naming that because that certainly is the reality for me. Great.

Keith Edwards: Well, Frank, we’ll have to give you a co host credit here and for, for offering that wonderful question and thank you both for answering it so, so genuinely and honestly, uh, to no surprise, we’re running out of time.

Uh, the podcast is called Student Affairs Now, and we always like to end with asking each of you, what are you thinking about? What are you troubling? What are you pondering? What are you delighting in now? It might be something related to this conversation or it might be something salient to the things in the world or the challenges you’re facing.

Um, and also if you want to share where folks can connect with you, um, where they can do that. Um, but Rob, let’s, uh, start with you. What’s, what’s on your mind these days?

Rob Kelly: Well, uh, earlier we mentioned, uh, kind of enrollment management, enrollment management, enrollment management, May 1, all of those kinds of things.

We often talk a lot about the challenges that we have in these positions, but it is, So absolutely wonderful, um, to be a college president and to help the institution, um, be the best version of itself to help, um, make things happen, get the resource that faculty want to, to, to really be teachers and scholars in the classroom, but researchers outside of the classroom.

Allow students to be the people that they were meant to become for them to ask these sort of ask questions. Um, uh, it’s a joyful thing to be able to do that. And as I approach commencement, my first commencement, I’m going to shake thousands of hands next, uh, next weekend. Um, I’m really excited about that.

At the same time, I think there’s just a natural, uh, there’s a distrust of higher education. There’s a belief that, um, do you really need a college degree? And I often laugh at these kinds of things because while we criticize higher education, we’ve yet to put anything in its place. There’s nothing that can make up for what a college education, the experience.

Of what we can do. There’s nothing that makes up for that. And so we have to always kind of continue to reinvent ourselves to continue to be joyful about the work that we do. But, um, it’s a joyful position to be in. And I’m really excited about it. And so I would just say, you know, um. I can be found at you portland president on Instagram.

Um, I try to be active on the gram , but I have a really, really cool staff that make me being on the gram happen. They make it look successful. It ain’t really me, but, uh, I love what I do. And I’m really thankful and blessed to be able to do it right. Frank,

Keith Edwards: what’s uh, what’s on your mind now?

Frank Shushok, Jr.: All right, one one practical for the audience is I read a stat Uh yesterday that in the next five years fifty percent of the college presidencies will turn over next five years fifty percent so uh, if um, uh If you’re looking for a way to serve and to to make a difference, I invite you to To join the, the club.

Um, the, the thing that I, I think about a lot, and I’m gonna connect it to what Rob said, and in fact, I think maybe Rob and Lori and I need to write something about this mm-hmm. . Um, but, um, I’m worried about the social fabric of our country. And I’m, I’m, I’m worried about democracy. I am worried about relationships across all sorts of demographics.

You know, there’s a really interesting study that UC Berkeley did that, that, um, are 80% of our major cities are more segregated today than they were in 1990. Um, one of the most beautiful things about higher education in the College or University is that We bring people together across all sorts of racial, religious, socioeconomic boundaries and people actually become friends with one another.

And in this time, you probably saw the Wall Street Journal poll recently, which shows the number of people who now say getting a college degree is not worth it, uh, is, is close to, it’s 60%. I mean, it’s, it’s really high. If you think about the impact of that from a social fabric, uh, and, uh, for our country, it’s really, really important that we, we articulate the value of a college degree.

And it’s, it is, um, it is directly related to the kind of world we want to live in. And, and we’ve got to knit it together and figure out. How to work together and find common ground and how to, how to listen to one another and care for one another and disagree with one another, all those kinds of things.

And I think we play a really important role in that.

Keith Edwards: Lori , what are you pondering these days?

Lori White: I grew Up in San Francisco, California, you know, wonderfully diverse neighborhood with kids from all different races, different ethnicities, different religious traditions, ideologies, et cetera. And so what I am joyful about is being president specifically of a small residential liberal arts college, largely for the reasons that Rob and Frank talked about.

We are one of the few places. places left in our country that actually bring people who are different together and ask them to figure out how to create community in the messiness of this very messy world. And so I am hopeful as I work with young people because all of that stuff that’s going on and state legislatures, um, our young people want a different kind of world than what they see the adults modeling for them.

And if we can do the best job that we can to Encourage and inspire students to connect across all of these now re segregated lines, then I am really excited and hopeful for the future of our country. And that’s really at the core of why we’re doing this work.

Keith Edwards: You got Frank to put it a heart emoji

Frank Shushok, Jr.: up and applause for all

Keith Edwards: of us.

That’s wonderful. You’re really highlighting for me, um, how these campus communities, particularly the kind of campuses that the three of you are on, are really bringing in people from all sorts of life, coming together, shared purpose, shared experiences, wrestling with that, and, uh, how remarkable that is in these days and times, and what an anecdote for so many of the challenges we face as a democracy, as Frank was pointing to.

Frank Shushok, Jr.: Keith, you’ve got to end by telling us what you’ve been thinking about. You’ve got to participate. What do I? Oh, this is completely untrue. Come on, you’re the closer. Come on, close it out, Keith. What am I troubling now? And you should say something about your book, too.

Keith Edwards: Yes. I have a book coming out, maybe next week.

We’ll be doing an episode on it soon. Oh, okay. Um, I think, what am I troubling now? I think, for me personally, I wrestle on a day to day basis with incredible hope and optimism in what I see in the youth and possibilities and change and trans folks being elected to legislatures and progress and hope for the future and then Five things down in the Twitter that and I want to give it up and move to the woods and be left alone and I think, um, the merger of possibilities versus leave me alone and I think is a lot of what is leading to some of those dynamics and how do we, how to be, how do we be in it together?

It is not lost on me that posted apocalyptic fiction is really popular right now, whether it’s books or TVs or movies. And I think that says a lot about how, how much despair there is about our collective future. And that troubles me.

Okay.

Frank Shushok, Jr.: All right. Thank you. Hang on. Here comes the heart emoji. All right.

Keith Edwards: There we go. There we go. Well, thanks to the three of you. I really appreciate it. Uh, what a wonderful enriching conversation. I have a whole page of notes. I have no idea how I’m going to get all of these down to three or four cents of an episode description.

But thank you so much for your guidance, your inspiration, your wisdom, your experience. I think it’s so valuable to so many of the folks. This has been terrific. And thanks to all three of you. for your leadership. Thanks for the invitation. Yeah. Thanks to our sponsors of today’s episode, Symplicity .

Symplicity is the global leader in student services technology platforms with state of the art technology that empowers institutions to make data driven decisions specific to their goals. A true partner to the institution, Simplicity supports all aspects of student life, including but not limited to career services and development, student conduct and well being, student success and accessibility services.

To learn more, visit symplicity . com or connect with them on Facebook, Twitter or LinkedIn. A huge shout out, as always, to our producer, Nat Ambrosey , who does all of the behind the scenes work to make this group and me look and sound good. And we love the support for these important conversations from our community.

You can help us reach even more folks by subscribing to our podcast, YouTube, and weekly newsletter, announcing each new episode and more. If you’re so inclined, you can also leave us a five star review. I’m Keith Edwards. Thanks to our fabulous guests today and to everyone who is watching and listening.

Make it a great week. Thank you all.

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