Kathleen G. Kerr:
One of my favorite sayings is if you aim for nothing, you’ll hit it. And I think that we do that often in student affairs, we don’t really know what we’re trying to achieve. Well, we’ll be aim for nothing. That’s what we’re gonna get. But I think that as an assistant, suggester, you have to know where you’re trying to achieve, and you have to be able to articulate that vision to other people that you work with. So if you’re trying to achieve certain learning goals, or if you’re trying to achieve certain hiring aspirations or diversifying your staff, what, what is it you’re trying to achieve?

Keith Edwards:
Hello, and welcome to Student Affairs NOW. I’m your host, Keith Edwards today. We’re talking about managing from the middle, the skills of managing up, managing down and managing all around. As a wise colleague often reminded me we’re all middle managers, even directors have people above them. They are navigating and managing. So do presidents and chancellors, I’m joined today by three folks who have thought about this and done it well, I’m so excited to learn from your experience. Insight and wisdom. Student Affairs NOW is the premier podcast and online learning community for thousands of us who work in alongside an adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs, we release new episodes every week on Wednesdays. Find details about this episode or browse our archives at student affairs. Now.Com. This episode is sponsored by LeaderShape go to leadershape.org, to learn how they can work with you to create a just caring and thriving world.

Keith Edwards:
Today’s episode is also sponsored by Simplicity. A true partner, Simplicity supports all aspects of student life with technology platforms that empower institutions to make data driven decisions. As I mentioned, I’m your host, Keith Edwards, my pronouns are he him, his and I’m a speaker consultant and coach. You can find out more about me at keithedwards.com. I’m broadcasting from Minneapolis, Minnesota at the intersections of the ancestral homelands of the Dakota and the Ojibwe peoples. And so let’s get to our conversation. I’m so great to each of you for joining us. Let’s begin with a little bit of introductions. Kathleen, we’re going to start with you.

Kathleen G. Kerr:
Great. So my name is Dr. Kathleen Kerr. I use she, her hers pronouns. I am currently serving as the vice president for student affairs at SUNY Oswego. I started here just about nine months ago, maybe a little bit longer. I started on August 1st after spending about 31 years at the University of Delaware in various roles. I started there in Residence Life and held a lot of different positions, but I left there my final position. There was associate vice president for student life. Also been very active in ACPA, serving as president serving in various roles there and on several convention teams. So happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

Keith Edwards:
So glad you’re here, Kathleen. We really appreciate, as you mentioned, that career long perspective and the perspective as an SSAO and VP, and Debbie you’re, you’re in the role of middle management and, and leading and following and supervising. And you’ve thought a lot about this and presented on this. So tell us a little bit more about you.

Debbie S. Deas:
Hi. Yes, I have done all those things. It feels like a lot of pressure to have done it well, but we’ll see in the conversation. So my name is Debbie Deas. I am the current director of student services for the University of California Washington program. Also known as UCDC. Our students come from the nine undergraduate UC institutions to DC to do internships and take classes. And my role is to oversee our student services unit, which I like to call Res Life plus. So basically anything that happens on your campus in your student affairs unit happens in our small unit. And we are a unit of five that do all of that work. So on any given day for me, I am dealing with Title IX, inquiry issues, roommate issues housing placements, and matches, strategic planning, problem solving, staff management and supervision.

Debbie S. Deas:
I do a little bit of a lot of things. So I think folks who probably work at small liberal arts institutions will have a really good idea of what that, what that feels like. my history, my work history has mostly been in residence life, but I’ve also done a lot of work in leadership orientation and a bit in service learning and study abroad. I have been with the university of California with the system for since about 2007 with a short break to work with semester at sea. And I also worked at my small liberal arts institution after I graduated. So my experience is small and large across different types of types of systems.

Keith Edwards:
Yeah. I’m so glad you’re here with us. And I’m familiar with that job. I like to call it all of the above. right. Yeah. thanks for being here. And Zach, tell us a little bit about you.

Zachariah Brumfield:
Yes. Hello everyone. My name is Zachariah Brumfield. I use he him, his pronouns. So currently I work as a residence hall director at the University of Georgia Go Dogs. You know, we have to rep it with the national champions . But I started here at Georgia in 2019 after I got my degree in student affairs at Ball State University. So Ball State is home and we will eventually make our way back but currently serve as a residence hall director over one of our high rise communities. So my building has about a thousand first year residents. A lot of them are involved in Greek life. So I would probably say about a good 60 to 75% our Greek life members. I also supervise one of the largest staffs on campus. So I have 32 resident assistants two CLASS advocates, which is an acronym for continuing the legacy of African American student success.

Zachariah Brumfield:
So they do a lot of education and programming more towards our African American and black students. And then I also supervise for graduate residents who are in their master’s programs as well as supervising a front desk and advising a community council, which is more of like the student council, SGA of our individual buildings and partnership with the residence hall association. So work a lot with them. Also work a lot within the department in terms of committees. So recently I think one of the most proudest accomplishments is this is how I actually met Keith was with the residential curriculum. So the University of Georgia finally released its curriculum to campus, our first rendition of it. And so I’ve worked with our assistant director here for the past three years on that. And then just kind of wherever they need me. So I’m someone who’s going to jump in and take the lead on wherever volunteers are needed. And that’s kind of where I’ve gotten a lot of my experience, but after this we’ll be moving on and moving up a level. And so I’m really excited for this conversation as it’ll probably provide me a lot of insight on moving up within that manager hierarchy. So I’m excited for the conversation today.

Keith Edwards:
Yeah, well Zach, as you mentioned, we know each other from some of the work with the University of Georgia around their residential curriculum, and you were recommend someone I thought of for this newer professional perspective. And then that, that thought was affirmed by our colleague, Becky Berry, who recommended you for this. And then I got connected with Debbie because Wendy Susaki recommended you as someone who had thought about this and presented on this and this thought you would be perfect for this conversation. And then I’ve known Kathleen for not all of those 31 years but many of them. And we worked together at the University of Delaware and worked on curriculum and written things. And, and much more than that, that we’ll leave off the, from the conversation here today. So I’m really excited to hear from each of you and have you all talk with each other. But Debbie, maybe you could kick us off here. As Wendy suggested you, as someone who’s presented on this topic and done lots of things maybe you could just kind of get us a good foundation here. How would you describe the challenges and skills needed to manage up, to manage down and all around?

Debbie S. Deas:
Yeah. before I say that, I just want to say Zach, my sister is also a UGA alum where she met her husband. So I hear about the championship all the time and she was also a CA and a class advocate. So

Keith Edwards:
yeah. For those of you not watching the video, there’s a little bit of eye roll there. Just a little bit yeah.

Debbie S. Deas:
Yeah. So that’s, you all are doing good work cause she, she had a great experience. Anyway, so challenges, man. Okay. So I think one of the biggest challenges about being in the middle is that you have a lot of people that you kind of have to answer to on all different sides, right? So you have a responsibility to the people that you supervise, obviously, and you have a responsibility to the folks that you report to. And those those interests are not always aligned. Sometimes they’re direct conflict actually. And the, and I think the thing that makes that even more complex is that some of the things that your, the people, your direct report have frustrations with will also be some of your same frustrations. And you have a responsibility of the role of representing the university as the supervisor. And so navigating this space where you feel like you kind of want to take down the man, but you are the man you manage that.

Debbie S. Deas:
And so I think those, I think that’s the biggest, the biggest challenge. And then on a more personal note, taking care of yourself in that space, right? Because it can be really hard to navigate both of those lanes as you’re doing it. And I’m in this manager training now with the University of California. One of the things that, that they talked about was you know, when you are a manager level, your focus shift to people management and not so much the work. And I’m just like, in what world, in what world do I get to just focus on the people management, cause you don’t get to do that. so you have to work on, you know, managing and people creating experience for them holding the responsibility that you have with your supervisors and also doing the work that’s been assigned to you because you don’t get to nobody’s job card is just supervision, right?

Debbie S. Deas:
and it takes a lot of work to do that. So as far as the skills I like to think in more broad terms. Cause as you might imagine, there are a ton of skills that are needed. And so I was trying to think of a, kind of a memorable way to put it together. And so I like to think of head heart and hand, right? So the head skill, I think your biggest head skill that you can have is curiosity. If you lead with curiosity, I think it puts you in a good place, right? So lead as in how you’re actually practicing your leadership and lead with, as in how you begin. Right. And I have a couple of examples that I can share throughout the episode, but coming from a place of wonder, instead of assumption, asking people about what they mean and what their intentions are, and what’s important to them, I think can really help you one make connections with people, but two also understand them a little bit better and be able to share information with them in a way that’s going to resonate with them and be able to find things that they can connect to in the work and that they can connect you in some of your explanations and how, you know, to build that understanding.

Debbie S. Deas:
So the heart piece is connecting the work to your values. As we all know, student affairs is kind of a thing can be a thankless position supervision in student affairs, even more so right. and so it’s incredible because you’re going to be really, because there will be times when it’s incredibly rewarding, but it’s also really challenging. I think it’s important to find work that aligns with their values and make sure that supervision aligns with their values. I think we’ve all seen people or encountered people who want to be managers and supervisors, because they want that title and they want that power, but that’s not really the best place to come from because you’re going to make everybody else around you miserable. Right? So you really want to be committed to doing that work of creating a really great experience for your employees, advancing the, you know, goals and missions of the institution and the work and then the last thing, the hands piece.

Debbie S. Deas:
So the things that you need to have in your hands on are help and support. So having people that you can call up or email or text, whatever that can really help you and support you. And that might mean that will look different for right. It might mean someone that you can vent to at the end of the day, it might be having Instacart on your phone so that you can have your groceries delivered because you’re too stressed off to go shopping. it could mean, you know, every once in a while, like calling up a family member, who’s really who just loves the clean is like, Hey, can you come like clean my house afternoon. Cause I just can’t manage. So having support at your hands I think is also also incredibly important. So yeah. Curiosity, connection to values and support.

Keith Edwards:
Yeah. What’s really standing out to me from this really thoughtful that you’re sharing is how many times you said the word and you have to do this and this and be able to do this and navigate this. And I feel it, I feel that. And, and, and, and, and and I think the, the complexity of competence and, and having responsibilities that you yourself have to execute the work while also managing people in decisions. I remember feeling like the people above me, all they did was go to meetings and make decisions. And that, that made sense. And they were in meetings all day long. And then the people below me didn’t get to make a lot of decisions, but they had to do all the work. And I felt like I have to go to all these meetings and I have to do all the work as well, but I don’t have time to do the work cause I’m in meetings all day long. And that, that, that, and, and coming from both sides really, really resonating with me. And the, the difference between going from competence at the work to then rising to the point where now you’re, you’re still doing the work, but now you’re managing people and decisions, which is a completely different skillset that oftentimes we’re not really well prepared for.

Debbie S. Deas:
Right? Yeah. I mean, most people don’t most people don’t get into supervisory roles cause they’re trained to be supervisors, you know, so you do a good job in the role that you have and people go, oh, wow, you’re really good at that. You should move on to the next level, but there’s rarely any kind of training or transition that kind of happens with that. And so a lot of people learn trial by fire. A lot of people use models from, you know, their mentors and their colleagues. I think some of the best supervisors actually practice a lot of reflection and self-awareness and get into trainings and find resources to help inform the work that they do. And GA I know this is hard for people. They actually check in with the people that they supervise and ask really difficult questions of those people that they supervise yeah. About how they’re doing and those answers aren’t always sunshine and rainbows.

Keith Edwards:
Right, right. Yeah. It is really difficult. And I think many of us just supervised the way we were supervised, which is also the rationale for hazing, which is not great. Right. let’s, let’s maybe offer a better experience. so Kathleen you’re, you are a VP of student affairs. And I think many people assume that once you get this great office in the top of the ivory tower, all you do is manage down and tell people what to do. But how do you, as a senior level student affairs practitioner, educator leader, how do you navigate in this role, the managing up and the managing around with your peers and your colleagues?

Kathleen G. Kerr:
Yeah. So I was thinking a little bit about this and I think that I haven’t been in what you would consider a typical, like a middle management position in quite a long time, but the truth is that we’re all in the middle of something or some people or some groups. And so I don’t think that I’ll ever be in a position until I’m retired and I can boss my husband around or that I’m not that I am actually in charge and, and he would, he would be fine with that. But I, and I also am not, I, you know, I think I’ve struggled a little bit as I’ve been thinking about this episode, Keith, so I apologize for this, with the term managing from the middle. Cause I really think it’s about leadership and I think that the skills that you need to be successful aren’t necessarily about management.

Kathleen G. Kerr:
It’s the distinction between being a manager and being a leader. And I think that to do it really well, it’s about the leadership skills that you develop and you utilize regardless of what position you’re in. So if you’re entry level or if you’re in a mid level or if, you know, senior level position to be successful, working with people who are above you or working with people who, who report to you, it’s how you display those leadership skills. I’ve also been thinking a lot about the terms that we use when we talk about this. So we talk a lot about collaboration and partnership. We talk a lot about getting out of our silos, but I think when you actually do that well, that’s when you’re successful managing from the middle. And so I loved what you said, Debbie, about the heart and the hands and the head.

Kathleen G. Kerr:
I think those were really excellent points. And I think that as a, a vice president, I’ve given a lot of thought to, how do I provide my staff with a clear vision of why we’re doing the things that we’re doing and how are we all in this together, but I’m also really attending to their wellbeing. I talk a lot about student wellbeing, but I also have to care for them and attend to their wellbeing as well. And so being curious about them as individuals and be caring about how is their workload, especially through this pandemic, which seems to be the, the never ending quite frankly, burden on student affairs staff and the extra hours and the invisible labor that many student affairs staff in residence, life and housing in our health centers, in our counseling centers. Many of whom have never left campus campuses that are still remote.

Kathleen G. Kerr:
Those staff members are still on campus. And so I really think it is about providing leadership, identifying what you’re trying to accomplish, attending to the individuals, and then the, the leadership skills. How do you listen to your staff? How do you hear what they’re attending to Keith? You talked about seeing people go off to meetings and make decisions. Well, you need to come back and be transparent as much as you can in how those decisions were made and why those decisions were made. so communication is, is really key. But the sense that once you become become VP, you are not beholden to anyone is, is just a mistake. The, the I’m, I’m always beholden to students. I’m always beholden to the president, the board of trustees or the college council in the case of SUNY Oswego and understanding that entire environment and the entire landscape of who I am working for quite frankly, is everybody is really important to my success and my division success.

Keith Edwards:
I love this switch in language from managing middle managing to leading and leading up and leading down and leading around. I think it really reflects an important shift. So we’re just going to go with that. We’ll change the name of thatl let’s let’s do it and use that language. So we really want to get from you this perspective from the senior level, but you, you also have had an entire career at every level from undergrad to grad to complex director assistant director. I won’t go through the whole thing but you’ve had all of these different levels and wanted to get also your perspective. How have you, what have you learned from leading at all these different levels in organizational hierarchy along the way?

Kathleen G. Kerr:
Yeah, I think, I think when I reflect back, it’s understanding where my sphere of influence was and trying to expand that sphere of influence. I think that staff members can get really frustrated if they’re trying to make change. You know, it’s a decision the board of trustees has to make, but you’re really angry and frustrated that’s outside your sphere of influence. So how can you affect change within your sphere of influence by talking to people that you are in committee meetings with and talking to your students, your students often can make change on college campus. So it it’s really understanding that it’s also I, I think to the point that Debbie made before being curious and understanding why decisions were made being new to SUNY Oswego, I’ve often said that I’ve had to take Delaware out of my brain and set it aside.

Kathleen G. Kerr:
And, and there is a lot of excitement and enthusiasm that I felt learning a new system, but it’s that beginner’s mind. And so stepping back, not coming into this position, oh, I’m the vice president. I know everything, but really coming at it from a beginner’s mind, how do the students and the parents perceive this campus? How do my colleagues perceive this campus? And I think that to your point, Debbie people want to be supervisors and they want that power, or they get promoted into the supervisor position. Oftentimes I think that comes with, I need to know everything I need to be right. I need to show that I have whatever it is that people saw, but I think sometimes that, that puts you in a really right. You’re, you’re bound to fail. If you think that you need to prove that you’re right and not be patient and listen and ask questions and really just sit back and absorb.

Kathleen G. Kerr:
I think what I’ve learned here too, we talk a lot at SUNY Oswego about collaboration and student success. And so trusting that my colleagues do want to work with me in the division of student affairs and they’re working right now in alumni or in career services or the provost office, and that believing that there is a genuine desire to step outside of their silo or their particular area. And so I think what I’ve learned over my, my career is to drop some walls and, and believe that there is a desire if we have this shared goal, say of student success or whatever it is to, to link arms with people and, and trust to some extent it’s some good intentions and be willing to, and work with colleagues.

Keith Edwards:
It reminded me of Brene Brown talking about going from the being right and knowing to getting it right and learning. And that trust is not, you know, people who have all the answers and never make mistakes. And a lot of us feel a need to pretend like we know everything and pretend we never make mistakes to earn trust, but we don’t trust those people. Right. What we trust is people who are vulnerable and authentic and mess up and take responsibility and own that.

Debbie S. Deas:
Yeah. I think the people who are committed to always having the answers and never making the mistakes actually to make the most mistakes, because you’re leading from a place of preservation, mostly of your reputation and your ego, as opposed to kind of figuring out what’s what’s needed, which I think, you know, as a supervisor yes. Part of your job is, or the leader, supervisor, whatever word do you choose to use part of your job. Yes. Is to have some of the answers, but it’s as much your job to ask really great questions. Right? Yeah. And to really figure out kind of what’s going on and what’s needed. And I also really appreciate the idea of context and you didn’t necessarily present it, like, well kind of like this context versus transparency, right. I think a lot of times people hear transparency and they think, well, why can’t tell them everything?

Debbie S. Deas:
Well, that’s not really transparency. Like transparency provides some understanding of what’s going on and does provide some context, which does help reduce some of that frustration, especially from folks who don’t have access to spaces that you have access to as someone who’s in the middle or, you know, in senior, in senior leadership. So I really, I really appreciate that. And I literally just two weeks ago was talking with a new professional. And I think I said about 10 times in the span of 20 minutes. Yep. I understand that. And you don’t have control over it. so what are we going to work on? Like what are the things we’re going to do about the things we have control over?

Keith Edwards:
Well, you reminded me, I just finished Adam Grant’s book. Think Again. And one of the things he talks about in that book is that in learning cultures I don’t know. And I messed up are seen as courageous leadership skills and in cultures where those are seen as weakness, then we get into this preservation performative, covering up unethical behavior. Does anything, Kathleen, I love this notion of control. I remember in early in my career, you lecturing me often about all the things that I was upset about that I didn’t have control and people four steps above me didn’t have control. So move on. I’m wondering if I could nudge you for a story of yours that I’ve told probably a hundred times about what you move, what you learned, moving from a complex director to an assistant director in your sphere of influence with that.

Keith Edwards:
Tell the story about when you realized you weren’t an assistant director, you were an assistant suggester.

Kathleen G. Kerr:
Oh, an assistant suggester. Yeah. It’s about relationships, it’s it? When there are some positions that you move into where you don’t have the direct, you, you can’t direct people to do certain things. Really what it is is about relationship building, vision building, and having people understand where you’re trying to head and bring them along on that path and on that journey with you. And so that’s what I was talking about when, and, and I think the curricular approach is a great example of why we do the curricular approaches so that we all understand what it is we’re trying to achieve. I, I just gave some remarks at a, a student involvement award ceremony last week. And I said to the students, one of my favorite sayings is if you aim for nothing, you’ll hit it. And I think that we do that often in student affairs, we don’t really know what we’re trying to achieve.

Kathleen G. Kerr:
Well, we’ll be aim for nothing. That’s what we’re going to get. But I think that as an assistant suggester, you have to know where you’re trying to achieve, and you have to be able to articulate that vision to other people that you work with. So if you’re trying to achieve certain learning goals, or if you’re trying to achieve certain hiring aspirations or diversifying your staff, what, what is it you’re trying to achieve? And then what are the strategic ways that you can get there? And what is the value in achieving that target? And does everyone understand that. You don’t have to be directive and dictate you do this, you do this, and you do this. If everyone understands what the, what the end goal is.

Keith Edwards:
I think that’s such an important point particular for people who don’t have employees who don’t supervise, right. Don’t have anybody. And then they have to do this through influence, which is a much longer process, right. You know, go, go follow up on that is different than how are we going to organize together to do this thing. But I also think it’s, it’s a great way to reframe much of the leading. We do, even if we have a bunch of employees that we direct and, and we supervise. So I really appreciate you sharing that. Zach, you are, we’re going to call you a newer professional. You’re not shiny and new anymore, but you’re newer. You’ve heard Debbie, you’ve heard Kathleen talk about some of the things they’ve learned, looking back, and, and you’re in the midst of this in one role and, and thinking about moving to another one, what’s really connecting with you here.

Zachariah Brumfield:
Yeah. I have to go back to Debbie’s first point about the head, the curiosity. I think that that has served me so well. Being a somewhat newer professional in the field, because I even think I was that way as a kid, I’m always asking the why question, why are we doing this? Or why haven’t we done it that way? So I’m someone who wants to hear the background context and the background knowledge as to why didn’t it work before. Can we switch some things up and change it to kind of fit the students that we are serving now? I think by asking those questions, I’m able to gain a little bit more knowledge because I can definitely say when I first entered this whole idea of politics scared me. . I was like, I don’t know how I’m going to do this. Like, I think I was the go getter and I think kind of grad school prepares you and kind of gets you into this mindset of like, you’re going to impact so many students you’re going to kind of come in and you’re going to be able to shake things up.

Zachariah Brumfield:
And in reality, that’s not how it works right away. It’s really about understanding the institution you’re working for, understanding the students, understanding the staff before you can kind of get involved with those campus partners or other people within the department to start changing some of the ways that we are doing things. So I think curiosity, that would probably be my number one thing to, as like a tip to tell people is always ask the why. And I think it also depends on your tone and the way that you’re asking it as well. So I think if like you’re in a very honest setting and you’re being very genuine and that other person is, can see that you’re just trying to gain that background knowledge and not trying to fight against the system. I think that that is going to work within your favor.

Zachariah Brumfield:
And then I think going back to Kathleen’s point, this idea of relationship building I think is so important. I think a lot of us in student affairs, we didn’t get into student affairs because we don’t like people. We love helping people. We love talking. Most of us may have a little bit of trouble to stop talking. because we are just such people pleasers. And so I think those relationships that you build start to build that trust and credibility on who you are as a professional and you can lead your team a little bit better. So I think if you are building those relationships and you’re relatable, well, at least for me, I don’t supervise professional staff. So I think on that student staff level, I think that they are willing to take charge with me. So I always tell my staff, I’m never going to make you do something that I wouldn’t do myself.

Zachariah Brumfield:
And I think that that has been very helpful. So on top of that relationship building, if I’m like, okay, y’all, we’re going to have to do a little bit of dirty work. They know that I’m going to be there. They know that I’m going to show up and I’m going to do the work with them. And so I think that curiosity and relationship building is probably the two strongest tips that I can give to newer professionals as they kind of enter. So I would probably stray away from like coming in and wanting to make change right away. You really do need to understand your job and ask those questions and then find out where you can kind of fit in what committees can you get involved in? What special initiatives or projects can you get involved in? And I think that will start to develop the knowledge or at least your knowledge base on the institution and how different systems within student affairs work.

Keith Edwards:
I appreciate that. And I think, you know, it’s not making change or understanding. You want to understand so that you can be more effective in the change that you want to make, but I don’t want to skip over something that you said that I connected with. And I saw Debbie and Kathleen really connecting with, which is tone, right? Sometimes it’s not what you’re saying or what you’re asking, but how you’re doing that. And as I parent, you know, 10 year old and 12 year old daughters, man, it is often the things that instigate between them is not what they’re saying. It is how they’re saying it. Yes. And we’ve got to be mindful of systemic oppression. And the ways that that gets put into tone and gets read into things. And so how do you do this without will being authentic to you and your identities, but also communicate, I want to understand, I want to get this, I want to navigate it better.

Keith Edwards:
I want to do this so I can better serve my students. I see a different pathway and, and have a longer version of what change looks like. I mean, I, we all know working with traditional four year college students, if it doesn’t happen between the beginning of their second year and the end of their junior year, then it didn’t happen. and you know, newer professionals can feel like if it doesn’t happen in my three years here, then it didn’t happen. And all of this was for nothing when I’ve also seen people working for a decade to move toward preferred names in the registrar, our system, and working toward benefits by, and we’re really working with the state and city and municipality to give cover and all line this and that was years long processes. And so how do we not give up on those and work for change, but also stay understand the scope can be different. And that tone can be really, really important.

Zachariah Brumfield:
Yeah. And I think, oh,

Keith Edwards:
Go ahead, Kathleen.

Kathleen G. Kerr:
I was just going to say that this, this, this notion we’ve been talking, we’ve been talking about listening and beginner’s mind and being curious. I do think that it’s really important, especially as you move into higher level positions, to be very cognizant of power dynamics, because I can say, I want to listen and I can say, I ask a lot of questions and I want to hear the answers, but I also have to be cognizant of the fact that as a vice president, people are going to be anxious, specific positions. Perhaps students are going to be anxious to say certain things to me. So I also have to really till the soil and fertilize the ground so that there is belief and appreciation and trust in that I want to hear honestly, what their experiences are. I want to hear, honestly, you know, where are the mind fields that I need to avoid as a new vice president here, please tell me the truth. I want to hear from students. What are the things that you love and what are the things that you hate? I want to hear from the new residence hall director, who’s been here for a year. What has your experience been like? And you can tell me that truthfully, but you can’t just expect people. They don’t just see me as Kathleen. They see me as the vice president for student affairs. And I always have, it’s hard. I have to remind myself of that. Cause I look in the mirror and I just see myself as Kathleen. Yeah. Right.

Keith Edwards:
Zach, what were you going to add then? We’ll go to Debbie and then we’ll move on our next question.

Zachariah Brumfield:
Yeah. I think to go on Kathleen’s point, I think this idea of advocating for yourself is so difficult. I think that that’s something that I still haven’t learned fully. Like how do I tell my supervisor, oh, this isn’t working for me in the way that you supervise me or I don’t appreciate this. It’s very hard because you do picture them as your authority figure and they are the one that supervises you. And ultimately the one who could say we may or may not keep you into this role, we may let you go. And so I think that it is very difficult and I think that there needs to be more attention to teaching younger professionals. How do you advocate for yourself in those spaces in a way that is respectful, but also in a learning and growth mindset for both you and your supervisor.

Zachariah Brumfield:
But I think going back to the point on, we were talking about tone. Keith, you brought up a really good point in the way that we show up in spaces is super important. I think that I was very ignorant to that. Coming into my first role is understanding that when I walk into a space, you know, my identities do play a part into that. . And so understanding now that as a white man, there are going to be people who are not going to trust me right away because of their lived and past experiences. And so I think that I’ve had to incorporate that into the way that I supervise and manage my staff as well. On it may take you a little bit longer to build that trust with some of your student staff , but it doesn’t mean that they’re a bad employee or they don’t care, or they’re not going to listen. It’s just, you need to spend a little bit more time. So I wanted to add that in there as well.

Keith Edwards:
Thank you, Debbie, what do you want to add to this?

Debbie S. Deas:
Yeah. I was thinking about was Zach was saying about kind of influence and, you know, talking about that frustration of not having, not having the power per se or the position. And I think a lot of times we create, or we believe that there’s this connection between influence and power and that’s not necessarily true, right? Like on some level. Yes it’s but I think we all, I think most of us, even if you have just been in the field for a year, you recognize the people who are in positions of power and people or people who are in, you know, positions of power and then people who actually have power because they have influence. Right. so it’s not just because you don’t hold that position doesn’t mean that you can’t have impact and influence in your spaces. And a lot of that comes from the relationship building and practicing the curiosity, engaging people in conversations, right.

Debbie S. Deas:
Because then you learn what’s important to people. You learn how things work. And just the, you know, just the tip for folks who are trying to get into this place of practicing more curiosity, instead of starting your questions with why, if you could just start with, I’m curious, I see this is what’s going on. I’m curious. Is there a backstory here? Is there some context that maybe I don’t understand and you can even be honest, like I’m experiencing some frustration, but I also want to understand, can you help me understand what’s going on here? So I can maybe have a better relationship with this information or what, you know what’s happening. And I cannot tell you how many opportunities that I’ve had that I think are pretty closely linked to me asking questions and engaging people in conversations, right? cause a lot of people don’t get an opportunity to really talk about their work and what they do and kind of what their perspective is outside of like their, you know, peers. And I think when you give people that faith, Things open up,

Keith Edwards:
There’s a, there’s a thread here underneath this about framing things in terms of being of service rather than being about me, about me and my ego and my credit, but I want to understand this so that I can better serve students so we can make this change. So I can have the context both from people who are lower in the organization and working for that change, but also people in positions of power. How do we be of service? I love Kathleen framing of the who’s above me, all the students. , that’s a really great way to, to frame that. Kathleen, do you have one more thing to add and we’ll move to our next question?

Kathleen G. Kerr:
Well, I was just, I love the separation of influence on power because I think people forget that. And UN unfortunately I think that people who are in entry level or middle positions, middle manager positions underestimate their ability to influence because of their positionality rather than doing exactly what you said. Debbie. And I think that you know, one thing that I’ve tried to do this year and I will continue to do it as a, a relatively new vice president here is to meet more people outside of the division of student affairs. So just reach out to a faculty member and say, can we grab coffee or spend more time with students and really be visible. And I think that if you’re talking about relationship building, it’s more than just saying you want to have a relationship it’s role modeling that you really do intend to learn more about people. It doesn’t have to be about a specific project or a specific anything. It can just be having coffee and getting to know them more. And, and that, that can build your ability to influence something that will have an, a benefit for students or a benefit for your division that, that may not even be on the radar in terms of being relevant for your staff currently.

Debbie S. Deas:
Absolutely. Yeah.

Keith Edwards:
So many great thoughts here. I wanted to spend a little bit of time before we have to start wrapping up with what are some learning opportunities or resources that you might point people to? I’m thinking about particular books that you keep coming back to, or a particular lesson, or maybe professional development experiences. What are some of the things that, that you would really point people to who feel like this is a skill set that could really leverage them to be better leaders? Debbie, what comes to mind for you?

Debbie S. Deas:
Oh man. I think the one thing that I think every person who’s kind of managing or leading from the middle, but actually everybody needs to do is get more comfortable with feedback and we’re not going to get 100% comfortable with it. I totally understand that. Nobody likes to hear that they’re not perfect. I get it. But finding a way to change your relationship with feedback is going to completely change how you interact and interface in the world. It removes that kind of need for that performative you know, that performative leadership that we were talking about as far as like, you know, holding onto your position and knowing all the answers. And it it’s one of the things that I think can help with some of what Kathleen was talking about as far as when you’re in a certain position and people feel like they can’t talk to you.

Debbie S. Deas:
If they know that you have a history and a reputation for taking in and receiving feedback, then they may engage with you differently. Right. And feedback doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re going to change everything you do and how you do it. It just means that at this, it just means that you will then be moving with a little bit more intention and with a little bit more information. Right. and so just like when you receive a job offer, the first thing that you should say is thank you for the job offer. When do you need to hear, you know, when do you need to hear back when you hear feedback? The first thing you just say is thank you for sharing the feedback. , you don’t have to respond right away. You don’t have to. And I think this is another thing that kind of goes into some of the influence stuff that we were talking before and reactions when decisions are made.

Debbie S. Deas:
Or when you, Zach were talking about the things that you need from your supervisor, we typically have more time than we think. So you don’t have to address the thing in the moment all the time. Right? You can take time to breathe and think about it and think about how you want to approach it before you approach it. So with feedback, you don’t have to necessarily respond to the feedback you can say, thank you. Let me take that in. And can I circle back with you and talk about that? So one good resource that I like for is a book called radical candor. It’s this idea that you, oh, not people know it. So , it’s this idea that you are giving thoughtful feedback that is helpful and you aren’t practicing something called ruinous sympathy. Like this idea that you, aren’t not saying things because it’s nice to not say things, right?

Debbie S. Deas:
So it’s almost this difference between being nice and being kind, right. while it might not feel nice to tell someone they have spinach in their teeth, it’s the nice thing to do so that they can work on that. If that’s something they would like to do, right. same thing with, with feedback. And so figuring out ways to actively seek that out and to get more comfortable with it, I think is helpful. So getting into therapy, my number one, number one recommendation is to get into therapy, because if you have a good therapist, they’re going to reflect things to you that other people may not have heard. And you’re in a safe space to react to that and figure out how to manage it. , trusted colleagues, some colleagues that, you know, don’t necessarily care for. You ask a specific question.

Debbie S. Deas:
You don’t have to go in with, tell me what you think about me. That’s that might be hard. Right? you can’t ask about your specific time working with them on a specific project or a specific aspect of your work. I just asked one of the people that I supervised last week, because we meet every week. I said, okay, so between now and next week, I want you to reflect on this question, where can I, I get out of your way, because I know that, you know, she’s in her new position, she’s only been in for about four months at this point, and she’s amazing. And she’s doing a job that I used to do. I know what that dynamic is. Right. So I’m sure there are ways that I’m just I’m crowding her. And so I need her to tell me, Hey, Debbie, you can back off right. But it took a lot of work for me to me to get there. So I would say find ways to get feedback.

Keith Edwards:
Great. So great, great feedback. I, I love the learning for my coach training. That feedback is best when it is both kind and helpful. right. When we just want to be helpful, we can be pretty hard on people. And when we just want to be kind, we don’t offer things that they can do to improve. So I, I love the simplicity of that. Kathleen, what learning opportunities or resources would you suggest?

Kathleen G. Kerr:
Well, I just want to say, I think what your point speaks to is that not only do we need to get better at receiving feedback, I think we need to get better at how we give feedback. I think, I don’t think we’ve paid enough attention to teaching people how to give feedback that is beneficial to the receiver and gives them time to pause. That is kind, and that is helpful. And so I, I love that, that feedback that suggestion about feedback, Debbie for me, I think that what comes to mind are I had a recent experience while I was still at University of Delaware. I’ll be honest with you. I was a little resistant to it, but some staff talked me into going to a, I think it was a two and a half day training Institute on restorative practices in Beth and Pennsylvania offered by IIRP, I have found that actually quite life changing in how I do my work.

Kathleen G. Kerr:
Not because I use it every day, but because it has informed my perspective on how I listen to people, how I facilitate conversations in staff, meeting, how I facilitate conversations with student groups. And so I, I do think that really thinking about restorative practices and it, it’s a way of being in the moment being very mindful attending to what is in front of you. I just think it’s very powerful. I also think I’m reading a book right now as part of a, a book group for student affairs. And so one piece of advice would be to take time to do those things, that whatever position you’re in, you think you don’t have time to do, because it role models and it models the way for what you want others in your, in your work circle to do. But she talks in the book Celest, he is, her is the author’s name.

Kathleen G. Kerr:
She talks about metacognition and really taking time to think about what you’ve done. And as an introvert, I think I do this somewhat naturally, but there are times when I have to pause and think about what happened at that meeting, or think about what happened in that conversation with the student, and really could I have had that conversation differently and be it’s about being self critical, but it’s, it’s about being self, self analytical too, about you know, what, what were the dynamics in that conversation? Did I not pay attention to a power dynamic that existed? Was I in someone’s way? And should I circle back and ask the question about something that came to me afterwards? Cause I think up some, sometimes in the moment you can miss some things, whether it’s because of the excitement of the moment or the energy, what, what have you. And so I think it is about taking time and making time in your schedule or over weekends or while you’re walking or while you’re swimming laps to really, really be reflective. And, and for me, that’s a really powerful kind of personal growth opportunity. So

Keith Edwards:
Thank you, Zach, what learning opportunities or resources would you suggest?

Zachariah Brumfield:
Yeah, so I’ll go back to my point about getting a mentor, someone who’s able to be authentic and genuine and just really open about their experiences. Like for me, when I was an RA, the grad student who supervised me, I’m still friends with her till this day. We are someone who meets up regularly. We talk about our experiences because very few people outside of the field of student affairs understand what it means to work within student affairs. And I think that’s very hard because sometimes we’re looking for support outside of student affairs, but there are very few people who just get it. And so finding that person for you, I think is really important, but I think exhausting your resources in the professional development opportunities that either professional organizations or your institution offers. One thing I’m like really grateful about being at UGA is there are tons of certificate programs, webinars that are offered for free for stuff we work at the institution.

Zachariah Brumfield:
I think LinkedIn provides a lot of great opportunities that you necessarily wouldn’t see. But I think also getting involved in organizations like ACPA NASPA, ACUHO-I if you are on those list, serves all of us, probably receive that email at midnight. 1:00 AM from a cool Y that just gives you update about things that are going on. And I think once you see that you don’t have to do it by yourself. I think bringing that back to your departments and department meetings, seeing if there’s a group of you all that would like to attend, I think you’re still learning from them, but you’re also building that relationship within the department with your peers and counterparts. And so for me, I think that’s the biggest thing is exhaust all your resources and take advantage of all opportunities. I just think you just never know what you’re going to learn in those and what you’re going to take away. You might look at something and be like, yeah, I’m not interested in this whatsoever. I don’t think that I’m going to take anything from it, but I would at least try, especially if it’s for free definitely try it because you just don’t know what you’re going to be able to take away. But that would probably be my advice.

Keith Edwards:
I’m enamored with this idea about mentorship that I learned from book out of office where they’re, I forget the company, but they assign every new employee, a peer mentor, someone at their level, who’s done it, who can help them. Here’s how this place works. Here’s how to navigate this. Here’s how to do your job. Be careful about that. Don’t forget about that. So they get a peer mentor and then they get like a hierarchical mentor. Who’s two or three levels ahead who can talk about career trajectory and pathways and, and next steps. But I love that idea of, and that organization, new employees are assigned that. And if your organization doesn’t assign that, how do you seek out? Who’s a peer of mine that can mentor me about how to do this. And then maybe who’s someone quite a few levels above me who can help me learn different things.

Keith Edwards:
I think we, we try and get all of that from one person and it might be better thinking about different mentoring levels. We are running outta time. We just have a little bit of time. So I’d love to hear from you about what you’re thinking about now, the podcast is called Student Affairs NOW, what are you thinking troubling, pondering. It might be about this conversation. It might be unrelated to this, but just something you’re really wrestling with in your work and in your life. And if folks want to connect with you, what would be the best way for them to do that? So, Zach, let’s start with you. What are you troubling now?

Zachariah Brumfield:
Yeah, so I think for me, I think, I wouldn’t say it’s causing like anxiousness or worry, but I think it’s definitely moving up into that next step. Moving from an entry level position and kind of jumping like an extra step to an associate director level. I think there’s a little bit of nerves there. Just making sure that I want to serve the institution. Well, I want to leave a good name and legacy for me. I want to be able to incorporate new policies, ideas, initiatives that are really going to support the students. And just making sure that am I showing up in a way that the individuals that I’m going to supervise appreciate am I providing a safe space for them to be open and honest and genuine about their thoughts and feelings about how I’m supervising them or maybe some of the struggles that they’re experiencing within the role and just developing a great team that is going to work together to produce some amazing work.

Zachariah Brumfield:
I think is at the forefront of my mind. And I have to say, thank you, Kathleen and Debbie, for sure. You all provided a lot of things that I will be thinking about as I take on that next step. But I think it’s also a very exciting time. I love change. I don’t like to stick to the same thing over and over, which is why student affairs was so interesting to me because every day is not the same. And so the one thing that I do want to remain the same as the way that I show up and advocate for my staff and students. But yes, so thank you all for that. And if you want to reach out to me my personal email address is zsBrumfield@gmail.com. Or you can find me on LinkedIn under Zachariah Brumfield.

Keith Edwards:
Awesome. Kathleen, what are you troubling now?

Kathleen G. Kerr:
Oh, well, you know, as a new VP, I, and, and moving from an research one institution to a comprehensive institution, I’ve really been trying to get my head around the what does it mean for our students and, and, and what should be the experience for the students here? I think that is all within the context of a shift in higher education enrollment numbers are changing COVID has changed higher education. So I’ve been trying to do a lot of reading about where is higher education heading in the future and getting my, my head and my heart and my hands around that. And, and what direction are we heading? So that’s what I’ve been struggling with. So love to talk to people about that, and I really appreciate what I’ve learned from, from all of you, all three of you today. If people want to reach me, they can reach me at sunyoswego@kathleen.oswego.edu.

Keith Edwards:
Awesome. And Debbie, what are you troubling?

Debbie S. Deas:
Yeah. I think for me, it’s about student affairs now and student affairs future, right? So there’s a lot of transition happening in and out of this field. A lot of people are leaving and it’s hard not to pay attention to that. And I feel like part of my role is to, you know, work with the folks who are here and give them, help them craft the best experience that they possibly can and the roles that they’ve chosen to have, and that I have some influence over and also work with folks who are in similar positions to me or above me to really help them craft strong teams and practices that keep people around for as long as they want to be here and have good experiences while they’re, while they’re in the field. So those are the big things that I’m thinking about is kind of where we’re going and how we can make the most of the situation that, that we’re in right now.

Debbie S. Deas:
Those are, those are my big things. Folks can reach me on LinkedIn. That’s probably the best way to get in touch with me. I’m just Debbie Deas on LinkedIn. That’s my after the flash. And I’m also on Instagram as Debbie Deas. You can reach out to me to me there, but it’s definitely, I agree with Beth. I feel like I’ve learned a lot and I’m happy to connect with the two of you or the three of you. And know all of you now, cause you’re part of the network. So I’ll be, I’ll be reaching out when I need resources.

Keith Edwards:
Awesome. Awesome. Well, thanks to all of you so much. This has been terrific. I want to thank each of you for your leadership and your contributions today. I also want to thank our sponsors of today’s episode LeaderShape and Simplicity. LeaderShape partners with colleges and universities to create transformational leadership experiences, both virtual and in person for students and professionals with a focus on creating a more, just caring and thriving world. LeaderShape offers, engaging learning experiences on courageous dialogue, integrity, equity, resilience, and community building to find out more, please visit leadershape.org/virtual programs or connect with them on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn, and Simplicity is the global leader in student services, technology platforms with state of the art technology that empowers institutions to make data driven decisions specific to their goals. A true partner to the institution. Simplicity supports all aspects of student life, including, but not limited to career services and development student conduct and wellbeing, student success and accessibility services to learn more, visit simplicity.com or connect with them on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn. Huge shout out to Nat Ambrosey, the production assistant to the podcast who does all the behind the scenes work to make us look and sound good. And if you’re listening today and not already receiving our weekly newsletter, please visit our website at studentaffairsnow.com scroll to the bottom of the homepage and add your email to our mail chip list while you’re there. Check out the archives. I’m Keith Edwards. Thanks again to our fabulous guest today. And for everyone who’s watching and listening, please make it a great week. Thank you all.

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