Erin Castro:
We have a lot of unlearning to do, and we have a lot of education to do ourselves. We need to hire folks were formerly incarcerated. We need to enroll them. We need to make sure that there’s affordable housing in our communities. And so it’s not just putting the onus of responsibility on folks like Edgar, Jarrod, and Bryan, who are already straddled with a bunch of responsibilities. It’s not us as well to make sure that we are creating environments and actually putting in the resources and infrastructure to make it as easy and as inviting as we possibly can. For folks who are getting out and who want to continue higher ed.

Keith Edwards:
Hello, and welcome to Student Affairs Now. I’m your host Keith Edwards. Today we’re talking about incarcerated and formerly incarcerated students in higher education. We’ll be discussing systems, experiences, and ways to better serve these students. In our student affairs practice, we have five guests with lots of knowledge and experience to share with us today. Student Affairs Now is the premier podcast and online learning community for thousands of us work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays. Find details about this episode or browser archives at studentaffairsnow.com today’s episode episode is sponsored by Anthology. Learn more about their innovative data-driven platforms to build and foster your campus. Student engagement experience learn more by visiting anthology.com/engage. Today’s episode is also sponsored by EverFi. The trusted partner for 1,500 colleges and universities.

Keith Edwards:
Everfi is the standard of care for students, safety and wellbeing with the results to prove it. As I mentioned, I’m your host, Keith Edwards, my pronouns. Are he him? His I’m a speaker consultant and coach. You can find out more about me at keithedwards.com. I’m broadcasting from Minneapolis, Minnesota at the intersections of the ancestral homelands of the Dakota and Ojibwe peoples. Let’s get to today’s conversation. Today we’re talking about a topic that emerged from a previous podcast. Dr. Erin Corbett was with us today, was previously on the podcast, discuss campus policing and student activism for black lives. And in that conversation, Erin brought up the issues facing incarcerated and formerly incarcerated students. As a host team, we immediately thought the topic deserves its own episode, and I’m glad we’re able to bring that episode to you today. Dr. Corbett is joined today by another scholar researcher on this topic, Dr. Erin Castro. We’ve got the Dr. Erin C’s covered. We’re also joined by three folks with their own experiences of the carceral state Jarrod Wall, Edgar Montero, and Bryan Jordan. Thanks all of you for joining us and what you’re going to bring us and what you’re going to teach us today. We want to begin with some introductions. So just begin with telling us a little bit about you and let’s begin with Jarrod.

Jarrod Wall:
Yeah. Hey, thank you, Keith. Great to be here and great to be here with everyone that’s on here. My name is Jarrod Wall. I served 26 years in Indiana incarcerated 1989 when I 17. And during that time I had the opportunity. I learned, I earned a GED associate two bachelor’s and a master’s. Then I went on and I administrated or ran the college program as a prisoner for like 12 years. And so kind of had the opportunity to get double perspective as a student and administrative program inside. And then I was released about six years ago. I started applying for PhD programs, you know, just my goal was to get out of prison and survive and make it and, you know, go inner peace. She just said, and I kept getting denials, my Alma mater for whom I had earned all this degrees and ran the program inside. Actually denied me but after three years I got a second master’s in the meantime, but I finally, after three years, got accepted by a Tulane University down here in New Orleans where I’m entering my third year as a PhD student. I’m currently teaching a research design and the Louisiana directional Institute for women. And just kind of, some of my focuses are participatory action research affordability of college in prison, and just including the voices of formerly and currently incarcerated individuals.

Keith Edwards:
Awesome. It sounds like a life’s experience and life’s passion and a life’s work for you there. So thanks so much for being with us. Edgar, let’s hear from you.

Edgar Montero:
Hi, everyone. Great to be here. My name is Edgar Montero. I served 16 years and six months at the Utah State prison. I’m former incarcerated students like participate in several programs, including onsite college and correspondence courses as well. Majority of the time I spent in prison was dedicated to education and helping others inside prison to better themselves, whether you know, helping them with their GED or helping them with English by the way English is my second language. I participated also in programs like UPrep, University of Utah prison education program, which is a nonprofit, a non-credit bearing education program. And while I was there, I made a lot of great people and a lot of really good community who were really helpful in my growth and my education. I earned a bachelor’s degree and an associates degree while I was in prison. And I’m currently working on a master’s degree right now.

Keith Edwards:
Awesome. Wonderful. Thank you for being here, Edgar. Bryan, let’s hear from you.

Bryan Jordan:
Hello. my name is Bryan Jordan, and before I begin, I just want to no salute those two brothers for what they’ve accomplished. Despite the obstacles of incarceration, it’s very inspiring just to hear it, but my name is Bryan Jordan. Most people call me Love. I was incarcerated for 16 years in the state of Connecticut. My conviction was overturned after 16 years and I’ve only been released, I’ll say about seven weeks now, seven, eight weeks now. I, my journey through higher in prison began with Dr. Erin Corbett through her program. Second chance educational Alliance and later was accepted into a Yale University through the YPI program. And I’m now in a process of enrolling in Yale University to work on my bachelor’s degree. So that’s my journey through there. My passion is to kind of make this more than just receiving education in prison. And how do you take that education that people are giving to inmates and it correlates and translates to when you get out to opportunities, which is this, the position I’m in now was how do you take that education and actually use it once you get out of here?

Keith Edwards:
Wonderful. Thank you for being with us, Bryan, so glad you’re here. And you already gave a shout out to our next step guests, Dr. Erin Corbett. Go ahead.

Erin Corbett:
Yeah, good afternoon. Morning, wherever folks are, they might be listening to this. My name is Erin Corbett. I run the second chance educational Alliance program, and I’m also the program coordinator for the Quinnipiac University prison project. I do lots of other things, but for the purposes I think of this conversation, the best thing that I’ve ever done is coming in contact with Mr. Jordan and engage in some of the most thrilling conversations about writing and syntax and grammar. Happy to be here.

Keith Edwards:
Thank you. And the other doctor, Erin. C. Dr. Erin Castro. Go ahead and tell us a little bit more about you.

Erin Castro:
Hi everybody. My name is Erin Castro. She, her, they pronouns. I am a, an associate professor at the University of Utah in the higher ed program. And I also direct our onsite prison ed project which Edgar was one of our very first students and gosh, long time ago. And I’ll just say that I am for context of this situation really committed in terms of research regarding the university colleges and universities responsibility in serving those who have been and continued to be harmed by the carceral system. And so that’s really where I think my research and advocacy work is going

Keith Edwards:
Wonderful. Well, thanks. All of you for being here. I want to begin as I need to, to know some foundations and some basics and, and I think many of our audience does. So Bryan, we’re going to start with you. What are some of the basics here? What are, how should we be framing this issue? What’s the language we should be using or not using? How would you like us to frame this conversation and what would you like our audience to know who maybe are really unfamiliar with this whole realm?

Bryan Jordan:
Well if the conversation is about higher education in prison, in the pros and troubles of it, the way I, the way I have been speaking about it is we can’t contain the conversation to just educate and people that are incarcerated for the sake of being smart or educated while being incarcerated. That, that, to me, I mean, it serves a purpose for summon and it’s great, but the conversation has to be framed is using education for re-entry purposes for people when they get out. And how do we get universities as a system, just for speaking, before I spoke, how do we get universities to buy in to those educated students that they invested in needing opportunities and social networks afforded to them upon a release? So that’s, that’s like how I see this conversation. I don’t hear enough about it. There’s a lot of programs, people speak about in prison, but as we know, most people will get out of prison and, those relationships are stopping and what I, what I see. So that’s kind of how most of my comments would probably come in that frame, but that’s how I frame it.

Keith Edwards:
That’s great. Well, and one of the questions we’re going to get to later is about what can student affairs folks in colleges and universities to do, and you’re already calling us to not just support folks while they’re in prison, but how do you continue to provide that support, the networking, the connections, the education, the opportunities afterwards. So, so thank you for that. Edgar, what would you like to add? What are some of the foundational things you would want folks to know from your experience from your life that you would want to frame the conversation?

Edgar Montero:
I think one way to frame this conversation would definitely have to be in terms of equity, as far as like the opportunities that are provided to incarcerated students. And and not just like any education, right? Because most college programs in prison provide some kind of trade schools, you know, teach you how to weld, how to do a mechanic, work, whatever, but they never talk about you know, high quality education, you know, in terms of becoming, you know, a better human being and a better professional and, you know, and in those conversations, how would that be helpful for the incarcerated student? You know, so I think that’s one way to frame this conversation is by talking about education as means to improve people’s lives and provide that opportunity for, for everyone, whether you’re incarcerated or not.

Keith Edwards:
So moving beyond the job training, but bigger, bigger conversations. Thank you, Edgar. Jarrod, what would you like to share?

Jarrod Wall:
We can just frame this in so many ways. First of all, Bryan, you saluted us brother. I salute you back. First buffer, just getting out what you’ve done as well. So just wanted to take that pause and throw that right back at you. That’s what I learned. So everyone here just feel grateful. That’d be goosebumps thinking about it. So framing it though. Yeah, so I think a couple of things that are said kinda like Bryan said, I think when people graduate or, you know, with the degree, we can’t forget about it after that time. So if people are in and they have a four year degree, they get it. I don’t feel like we can just abandon them, go on to the next crop. I feel like we have a higher call of social justice. What then, you know, well, there are history projects that are, think tanks.

Jarrod Wall:
There are, you know, participatory action research. There’s a lot we can do to continue with it, versus just throwing them back to the monotonous, gray, black, and white existence. When they’ve been living for years at new ideas, new thoughts, growth living in Technicolor. Okay. I don’t feel like we should abandon our current students. Second. We should not abandon, as Bryan said, our students that are released mid degree or at any point, you know, make that transition into graduate school. My Alma mater, I don’t want to associate in two bachelors, ran their program for 13 years, denied me three years in a row. Ultimately after the third year, they told me your case is just too highly publicized and too local. You know, they should not have been allowed ever to be in prison and have those programs, in my opinion, if that was what they were going to do with the students who were released.

Jarrod Wall:
And I was suma cum laude. I mean, just, you know, it was just, again, they were worried about someone raising public stink. Let’s say the last point I want to make on this is I think people need to move beyond the arguments of worth. It’s like, oh, wow. Well, why should people in prison get a degree when my, you know, I have to pay for my kids? Well, I think you need to reverse that question. Why are you having to pay for your kids? Why are you, is this such a, a situation that you can’t hardly afford college? And this is maybe not an option for you or your children. You know, I think it needs to be looked at as the larger equity as Edgar was saying the same. We need to be looking at, you know, the free college discussions. We need to realize that this is a prison population has been so socially excluded throughout their lives and on so many different levels. And this is the time that we can get some social inclusion and actually help their situation, help that transformation help provide them with credentials and opportunities for when they’re released. And, you know this is what we need to be doing. This is social justice, but also ask the larger picture. Yeah. Why aren’t people out here getting an opportunity as well.

Keith Edwards:
I love that reframe. Thank you Jarrod. Dr. Erin Corbett, what would you like to your, your student affairs colleagues to know what’s the sort of foundation we should build on here?

Erin Corbett:
I think the foundation that we should build upon is exactly what Jarrod, Bryan and Edgar have mentioned. I have literally nothing to add. They have covered every base.

Keith Edwards:
All right. And she’s muted often a Dr. Erin Castro. She threatened that. She would just turn it over to that. We did. She meant it. All right, go ahead.

Erin Castro:
You know, I think what I’ll add here is that I love, and, you know, the very first time I met you Jarrod and heard this story, I mean, it’s just infuriating. It’s absolutely infuriating that an institution would would do that. And I think partly what I would just encourage by student affairs colleagues and anybody who’s kind of working in higher education is that, you know, part of what we are advocating for is that we see incarcerated and formerly incarcerated people as worthy of investment. And while that might not seem radical, you know, the practices on college campuses right now, we know that three out of four institutions require criminal history, disclosure across all institutional types. That is a huge barrier for people who want to access higher education. And there there’s no empirical evidence to support that, those questions do what people think they do.

Erin Castro:
And so I think the only thing I would add on this framing is that while you know, much of the emphasis has been on folks who have been directly impacted to make sure they’re ready when they come out. I think we have a lot of education to do on the outside for folks who have never been into prison. We have a lot of unlearning to do, and we have a lot of education to do ourselves. We need to hire folks were formerly incarcerated. We need to enroll them. We need to make sure that there’s affordable housing in our communities. And so it’s not just putting the onus of responsibility on folks like Edgar, Jarrod, and Bryan, who are already straddled with a bunch of responsibilities. It’s not us as well to make sure that we are creating environments and actually putting in the resources and infrastructure to make it as easy and as inviting as we possibly can. For folks who are getting out and who want to continue higher ed.

Keith Edwards:
I love this framing of the unlearning, the rest of us need to do and unpacking some of those things that we learn all along the way and get internalized. And also what do we have to learn from folks who have spent time in jail and prison? The life experiences is we’re already learning so much from three folks who are here today. They’re, not just they have something to add to the class conversations. They have something to add to the experience. I have something to add to all of that. Thanks to each of you. I want to move on to myths, and then we’re going to talk about strengths. What are, and maybe we’ve already begun tapping into that. What are some of the myths Jarrod, we’re gonna start with you. What miss do you think need to be dispelled for our audience?

Jarrod Wall:
We have a pretty long list, but one that I’m working on is yeah. You know, living in prison isn’t free. Okay. So we talk about a cost of attendance issue on the streets with university with a higher ed study. So cost of attendance is you’re not only tuition. We’re the only books for dealing with room and board. We’re the only transportation, well, might seem odd to talk about cost of attendance inside when you know, tuition is free room and board is free. However in mass incarceration, they started doing cost sharing cost shifting. Basically what it came down to is they started trying to force some of the responsibility of daily living costs up on prisoners. And so a lot of times the student wage is a lower wage and then working wage. And so people are in this situations like, wow, they, you know, may not be able to afford to be a student because the wage is the lowest and, you know, they can go work or work in an industry and make more.

Jarrod Wall:
And yeah, we, you know, we can say that, oh, wow, well, you know, Hey, they need to get skin in the game and make the sacrifice. And we want those motivated students to go to know, we want everyone to be there. You know, we want the people who aren’t sure if they can make it, or if they can make that sacrifice that goes there. And then we’re dealing with an equity issue too, that, you know, some can afford to do this. And some can’t some have people who are helping them. Okay. And some don’t. And we need everyone to have that equal opportunity because if we’re ever going to get any equity, this is the basically base place that has to happen. And to have something like cost of attendance or affordability, you know, people just can’t afford to live on the student wage.

Jarrod Wall:
This needs to be taken care of, or we need to address this. And, you know, particularly as we get the Pell grant is going to be, re-instituted in 2023, we’re going to rehab programs proliferate throughout the whole nation. And you know, why are we going to re recreate this problem? Why we’re going to perpetuate this problem, start new programs that aren’t addressing this. And then now we’re going to have the same problem and we have to fix later, you know, so one of the principles is why create something, you know, that we have to amend later. So we need to do it the right way. We need to be aware of this. We have been just so happy to have any seats in a classroom that we haven’t asked. Who’s getting in them. Now we’re going to get more seats and we need to be asking who’s getting in them, but also who is not getting in them.

Keith Edwards:
Yeah. Thank you. Edgar, what myths would you like to dispel?

Edgar Montero:
Well, I think one of the myths that I would like to dispel is the, this idea that incarcerated students are Pell grants, you know, because there there’s a lot of people who would argue that why are we offering free education for incarcerated folk? My child does not get the benefit of right. And part of the, part of the Pell grant problem or issue was I think that they stopped giving it to incarcerated folks, you know, for a long time, since I believe the amendment made in 1994. So my experience in prison through my 16 years in prison, I’ve never met anyone who received Pell grants. So maybe in the past, they had prior to 1994, but after 1994, you know, I don’t think nobody has ever received those programs. So I think that currently there isn’t any Pell grants being offered.

Edgar Montero:
I think there’s been talks about that. Of course I’m speaking out of my field. I’m not, I don’t have any sort of knowledge on this matter right now, but I do, I can say though that in my experience in prison, there was no access to Pell grants. Also I think I want to add the, you know, the, one of the benefits of Pell grants and I think the way they run it is through financial incentives, it’s kind of like like just like it’s at their discretion to give it to whoever they want to give it to. So it’s not that they choose to give it to incarcerated students or not, but it is that they, they give it to wherever they want. You know, so that’s one of these spells I want to, I want it to put out there as the fact that, you know, carceral students from my knowledge are not currently receiving any Pell grants.

Keith Edwards:
Great. Thank you, Bryan, what would you want to, what myths would you want to dispel?

Bryan Jordan:
What was to two for me? And the first one is, I don’t know where you are, but down this, there’s a myth that if you’re in prison, you just can easily receive a free college education. And that, that is, that is a myth that the there’s very limited seats. They’re highly competitive, you’re thoroughly vetted and it’s rigorous and, and, and, and, and, and you, you have to invest a lot of time, but the seats are very limited. So it’s not like you just go to jail when you could get a free quote unquote education. The second, is that a degree, although good and can open some social networks for you, it could change your life. It’s something that I’m hoping what happened to me. It’s, it’s not, it’s not a solved or the problems and the trauma that faces somebody before incarceration and has suffered a long-term incarceration. You know, like some of these brothers that are speaking now, they went through a traumatic, traumatic period of their life. A college degree does not solve that. And it is sold as such, sometime spoken about as at times. So those are the two myths that I would want to dispel.

Keith Edwards:
Thank you, Dr. Castro, would you like to add?

Erin Castro:
I think the only thing I would add is that you know, as we think about Pell grants becoming more widely available, we know that a large percentage of people in prison will remain ineligible for Pell grants. And so, you know, I just caution I think there’s a lot of thoughtful people in the field right now saying, wait a second, let’s not put all our eggs in this basket because we now know that for all sorts of reasons. And primarily prior loan default you know, the Pell grant, isn’t going to be the saving grace. That’s going to kind of help us rebuild pre 1994 college and prison. Nor should it be. We, we need institutional commitment. We need institutional infrastructure. We need alternative ways, including state funding of scholarships, so that when folks get out their Pell grant, isn’t exhausted that they can actually use their Pell grant, you know, once they’re out. And so I would just say, you know, for anybody who’s thinking like, oh, check Pell grants are coming. It’s a much more complicated story and one that we need to learn from our history. And there’s a reason that all the programs disappeared in 1994. If you pull Pell grants away, a whole field shouldn’t disappear. And so we’ve got to build it differently this time.

Keith Edwards:
Great, great, Dr. Corbett, I’m sure there’s some myths that you hear that they haven’t touched on. Let’s get you in here. What’s myths.

Erin Corbett:
I don’t know, whatever you might mean. One, I think is it is perhaps not so much a myth as it is a need to shift the conversation and the narrative. We need to get it away from the recidivism paradigm, which has been the dominant research paradigm for this entire field. It is always seeming to boil down to what is this program’s impact on recidivism, which is trash and garbage because higher ed programs, you can certainly look at correlations, but we know that correlation is not causation. And we also know that the laws in each state, the laws that are federal can impact people who are formerly incarcerated in ways that have literally nothing to do with the higher ed in prison program that they were participating in. A perfect example is that there was a student of mine who had gotten released and had started a juice bar.

Erin Corbett:
He was active in his local NAACP chapter, much like I’m doing with Bryan. I would drag him onto panels to talk about his experience and his, his time with his juice bar. And he was reincarcerated because the real reason was that his parole officer didn’t know how to spell his name. That is literally why he got reincarcerated, but they labeled it upstanding and said that he was intentionally obscuring, where he was when he was actually in newspapers, on flyers and as Shondra wrote and she was formerly incarcerated. And as a phenomenal journalist, she said it was easier to find Rainelle than it was to lose him. And so when we talk about recidivism and kind of pin all of the hopes of higher ed in prison on this problematic non higher ed metric, you exclude and negate all of the different systemic pieces that are actually impacting our students once they are released. So that’s what I’ll add.

Keith Edwards:
Yeah. Thank you for those of you not watching us and just listening, you were talking about the issues of recidivism getting lots of love and applause and head nods from our panel. And then as you were sharing that example, a lot of anger and frustration, and really hard for, for folks to hear that. So well let’s go to we talked about some myths. I’d love to hear what, what are strengths? I don’t want to just approach this from a deficit based model, but what are the strengths and the contributions you see students who have experienced with the carceral state bringing to higher education? What’s what’s the benefit, not just to them, but, but to the rest of us. Bryan, what are you, what are you seeing as some of the strengths and contributions?

Bryan Jordan:
Well I’ll speak personally. And from what I know personally, from the students in the classrooms that I’ve been in and I will say that the biggest strength is that it changes the transformation, regardless of the degree, regardless of the accolades, you get education transforms your mind. It allows you to see things differently, allows you to speak things differently, allows you to articulate, which decreases your aggression, because you’re able to tell people what’s wrong. You’re able to feel heard, are you able to problem solve? And that is the biggest problem that faces a lot of people before they was incarcerated and when they be released. So the degree is great, but the transformation that I seen in people that sat with Dr. Corbett and through the other programs that I’ve been in or whether they were taking other college programs is the transformation of their sales. So when I seen them, when they came to prison until a year into those programs, one of the biggest things I seen that higher education had an offer in a prison prison, say it, and it’s a beautiful process. So that for me personally speaking from my, in it, that’s one thing that I mean, it helped me tremendously in that

Keith Edwards:
And that transformation of the individual helps how they interact with everyone around them

Bryan Jordan:
And it is contagious.

Keith Edwards:
Right, right, right. What a wonderful point Edgar, go ahead. What’s the strength or contribution you see?

Edgar Montero:
Well, I think Bryan, I think education empowers you to be better individual and it is contagious. But I would also add that one of the strengths that we bring is our experience you know, we, we came from rock bottom and when now we’re building up our new lives from the new foundation of education, and I think people can see our experience and they can draw from that, that they can do better. Right? Like we’re able to do it while in prison, when we were in this kind of rock bottom place, how is it that we were able to achieve what we achieved? Right. It’s possible that that we can do this with, you know, through education. And I think that that is one of the strengths has been to bring a different experience. And, you know, I can’t even imagine what students incarcerated student would look in a real classroom.

Edgar Montero:
Right. And on campus, you know, all the experience that he brings into the classroom, a whole different perspective, a whole different you know, culture, you know, we were sort of introduced to a culture in prison that we do not prefer to be in, but we were able to mold into that culture and we bring that experience and to our peers, whether it’s on campus or once we are out on the streets or whether it’s still, you know, in our communities or in our, even our families, you know, so I think that we bring a very unique experience to our communities.

Keith Edwards:
Well, and you all are experts on many of the things we’re talking about in these courses, in the classrooms, whether it’s equity or poverty or the criminal justice system or government intervention, right. Rather than theorizing about this you all have experienced and know from a firsthand perspective. Jarrod, what would you like to add about the strengths and contributions?

Jarrod Wall:
So just, I can reiterate everything that’s been said, but I mean, it’s just the lived experience is so important, but I, I think first of all, I think people inside learn differently maybe than outside in this sense that I think for so many of us it means so many things. Again, we’re living in such a environment of deprivation okay. That you have now this opportunity, these ideas. And then secondly, you know, there’s a hunger I’m teaching inside. I’m teaching outside. There’s a hunger that the inside students have that I don’t see outside. Okay. And, and I think part of this hunger they’re telling me, it’s just some of them talk about, you know, proving and I’m like, you don’t need to prove to me, you’re a great student, but it’s, it’s the proving to themselves. They’re proving to the whole world.

Jarrod Wall:
I think that they are capable, you know, have bile, you know, is capable, which has habilitation rehabilitation, you know, but they’re, they’re just that they are, they’re intelligent that they’re learners, that they can do this. And I think, you know, they feel that castigation, they feel that stigma, and this is a chance to prove that. But I think another way they’re learning, and this is what’s true for me is every course wasn’t facts. It wasn’t the banking model. It wasn’t facts that I’m storing away. Instead each class, each idea, each theory became a lens through which to look at my past and try to understand, you know, oh, things that happened to me that I didn’t understand growing up things that were going on with my environment now, oh, there’s some good things. There’s some very toxic things. And then also a lens through which to critique my own culture I grew up in and then the larger society.

Jarrod Wall:
So I don’t know if everybody else uses education like that. Lastly, then I just want to say that, you know, coming out for a individual who has gone through such a non-traditional path to end up in a traditional setting where they’re actually sitting in a chair before admissions committee, I don’t, I think they’re looking at the depths that they’re looking at. They’re at the, oh, well, this criminal legal history, when in fact they should be looking, look at all the barriers, all the obstacles that this individual has come through and gone through, who else has gone through the gauntlets, this individual has, you know, the determination it takes the overcoming, the resilience, et cetera. I could go on and on, but I think that is just not looked at. And to me, I just it’s, I don’t, it’s just hard for me to even believe that people don’t recognize that.

Keith Edwards:
Right. Well, you’re making me think about how many in K-12 and higher ed, how many students feel like this is something I have to do, and I don’t want to do it, but I have to go to class. I have to write this paper. I have to read this book. I have to do this assignment. And you’re talking about this different attitude of, I get to, and I’m excited to do this, but also applying it, not theoretically to other people, but to their own lives such a rich contribution again Dr. Corbett at what, what other strengths and contributions have you seen?

Erin Corbett:
So, you know, I think that having currently and formerly incarcerated students at the table at the beginning of like every planning, something, every organizing something is absolutely critical. And the example that I’ll use is actually with Jarrod. He and I co-wrote an article that should be coming out soon, this year, I guess, in the after times. And one of the things that Jarrod and I have talked about over the years is what he was talking about earlier. This idea of affordability, cost of attendance. And what does that mean? And look like across facilities and across student experiences. And he presented these data me in a way where I was like, I literally never would have thought about that because I, you know, as woke and liberal and far left, as I think I am very much fell into the, well, this is, you know, free for someone who’s incarcerated.

Erin Corbett:
When, if you’re making the choice between being a student and being employed, that’s not free when you are making the choice between I have to keep this facility job, because that’s how I stock my commissary. That’s not free. And so having Jarrod as a thought partner was absolutely critical to my better understanding what some students might be going through as we are running our programs. I think the other piece that’s really important to know there was a conference last week or maybe two weeks ago now, I don’t know, time anymore. The RiseUP conference, which was organized by formerly incarcerated people, the speakers were predominantly formerly incarcerated. If not all formerly incarcerated sessions were led by formerly incarcerated folks. And it was phenomenal. It was better than any conference I have been to where these conversations are happening, but that are not organized by the people directly impacted in the system.

Erin Corbett:
And that is because the people who are directly impacted know the topics that need to be addressed, they know the conversations that need to happen, and they know that there are hard conversations that need to happen, and they are not afraid of having those conversations. I think it is incumbent upon us as Dr. Castro was saying, it’s incumbent upon the universities, the institutions to get their lives together. Right. Because when we think about, you know, who was at the RiseUp conference, where were all of those big programs that talk about and, you know, embracing the voice of the formerly incarcerated student, but they’re not showing up to the formerly incarcerated conference. And so we have to really ask ourselves these difficult questions that force us to confront our own hypocrisy in a lot of ways that we have not been forced to encounter it before we wouldn’t have that without the input of people like Edgar people like Bryan, people like Jarrod.

Keith Edwards:
Awesome. Well let’s move to one of our last questions. You know, this is Student Affairs Now our audience are student affairs professionals broadly defined some of the admissions and already challenging and critiquing some are hiring folks supporting students. What would, how could student affairs professionals best support? And I, I already have two that folks have shared. One is supporting folks beyond degree completion, as we talked about with jobs, connections networks, and then also not viewing the degree as just job training, but also training for life and to be a better human as Edgar pointed out and others chimed in on let’s stick with you, Dr. Erin Corbett. What would you like to suggest for student affairs professionals? How can they best support incarcerated students and formerly incarcerated students?

Erin Corbett:
So I think the first step is for student affairs people to get involved in higher ed in prison programs, step one, you know, so while residential life may look different inside of a correctional facility, there are still very unique residential concerns that incarcerated students have when they are participating in these college programs. When we think of things like access for disabled students, when we think of, you know, a lot of the Title IX issues, when we think of just any number of things that student affairs professionals deal with on freeworld campuses, we also have to understand and figure out how those student affairs professionals can do the same kinds of counseling advice, workshop sessions with students who are incarcerated and tailor those sessions for the unique needs of incarcerated students. Right now, for the most part. And if I’m wrong, Dr. Castro will surely let me know. There’s no robust student affairs, anything in any program. And that includes my own, right? So this isn’t like me pointing fingers. This is me, it is me pointing fingers, but I’m also putting the fingers at myself where we, we don’t have the capacity. Cause it’s just me, at second chance. But other programs that do potentially have the capacity to engage their student affairs employees to also then engage with incarcerated students. I think that that’s really the first step.

Keith Edwards:
Awesome. Jarrod, would you have suggestions for student affairs professionals?

Jarrod Wall:
Oh, absolutely. I think so far, you know, we have the the box, you know, the felon box that you check yes. You know, and review it and it becomes a liability. It becomes risky. It becomes all these sayings for exclusion. It becomes other things for denying. Instead, it should be a focus for affirmative action. So someone checks that box and they’re like, I feel like the university should be at that point. And you’re like, oh, we have a social justice mission. Now, how can we support this individual? How can we help this individual? What areas of wraparound services can we provide within? And even outside of the university is what they should be doing. I mean, take a Tulane University where I go, new Orleans is the carceral center of the world during mass incarceration. If any universities should have a social justice mission to help form the incarcerated should be the, the universities here in New Orleans, you know, to be active, like Erin Corbett was saying there to, you know, be involved in the prison.

Jarrod Wall:
They have a prison program and the women’s prison, you know, they should have, like you say, have those officers there help that transition. And then even maybe where their scholarships are just be bringing people in and hooking them up with the the Pell grants or the different grants that they can to try to get them. And then lastly, you know, I think we have the examples, like the underground scholars in California, but we have communities of formerly incarcerated scholars. So people don’t feel alone out here on a university that pretty privileged to lane let’s say and realize that your life isn’t anything like most people’s lives out here. You don’t have a community of people. Like you have a community of people who’ve gone through some of the barriers and understand you and you don’t feel that sense of stigma or kind of, you know, being an outcast too. So I think just having yeah, all that.

Keith Edwards:
All that, all that. Thank you. That was awesome. Jarrod, Bryan, I need suggestions from you for student affairs professionals about how they can support folks.

Bryan Jordan:
I think what the last two were pretty inclusive. So whatever I what I would say, I wouldn’t have much to add that. I think how we, how we view people that are incarcerated, just saying that term is loaded and it’s problematic because it separates you. You already are looking at that student differently by the labels. I’m not sure where formerly incarcerated means anymore. I don’t feel like I still feel incarcerated. I still face some of the same problems as I have. And as people incarcerated faces just I’m in a bigger space with a little bit more mobility, but I still very feel very much incarcerated at times, but I think it’s how we look at the students. You know, we need to ask ourselves, or they need to ask themselves, are we treating them as students, or are we treating them as a incarcerated people? If we treat the incarcerated as students, it would, the word means, I think a lot of the problems were solved yourselves, but at times we don’t, we treat them like incarcerated. Like they’re incarcerated. We’re really, we should treat them as students.

Keith Edwards:
That’s such a powerful point, Bryan, I really appreciate you bringing that in and treating them not just as students, but as human beings. So, so important. Thank you. Dr. Erin Castro, thoughts for your student affairs colleagues, challenges, nudges

Erin Castro:
So many, so many thoughts. I would first just love to say that everything that everyone’s said I’ll echo, Erin’s Dr. Corbett’s invitation here. If you have a prison program at your university or adjacent within driving distance, it’s doable for you. I strongly encourage folks to reach out. Most of us always need help. So these are programs that are chronically underfunded. And a lot of the help that we need, you know, is in prison, but we have a number of volunteers who don’t go into the prison for all sorts of reasons, and you can help on campus. You can help in other ways. And so I would say that’s the first I also think there’s a lot being written in this area right now. So there’s ways for folks to educate themselves. You know, we’ve, we, we are producing scholarship and information on the intersection of, you know, re-entry incarceration, higher ed access equity.

Erin Castro:
And so if you, you know, we’ll share some links with you, Keith, and some resources, but folks, a lot of this information is freely accessible. I know a number of us who may be publishing outlets that aren’t, we’ll happily share this information. So please feel free to reach out to me. And then I think the other thing I would challenge my student affairs friends to do is to look at whether or not their institution to Jarrod’s point requires criminal history disclosure as part of the admissions process. And if it does start asking some questions as to why and this can actually be extended to any part of service that you’re involved in, if you’re on a scholarship committee that screens for these questions, ask somebody why oftentimes we just perpetuate some of these norms and really, it just takes someone to say, well, wait a second.

Erin Castro:
Why would we exclude someone with that history? You know? And so I think that could be another thing that you do. And, you know, just know that if you find that your institution does ask this question, there are some phenomenal things happening with grassroots student organizing across the globe across this country where you can not have to reinvent the wheel here. You can work with other student groups, you can work with other staff groups. And I would say that those are all things that folks can do right now to kind of start educating themselves about how a broader structure can be more inclusive.

Keith Edwards:
Thank you, your fellow, Dr. Erin wants you to plug JHEP and I don’t know what that is.

Erin Corbett:
So that would be the journal of higher education in prison of which Dr. Erin Castro is one of the executive editors. And so the first issue just came out, gosh, like a couple weeks ago. One of Bryan’s former classmates is published in there. And so it is a great, great, great resource.

Erin Castro:
Thank you. And stay tuned for Dr. Corbett’s edited volume. That a number of us are going to be writing chapters in very soon. And I know Edgar and I are working on a draft right now, that’s due like in a week. So lots of opportunities for folks to read pieces that are written by folks directly impacted and folks directly on the ground, right? So we’re straddling higher ed we’re straddling, you know, prisons. It’s just, it’s a nice time if you’re wanting to get in to understanding this, to be able to kind of pull up a lot of the scholarship for free online right now.

Keith Edwards:
Thank you so much. Thank you for mentioning that. Thank you for doing that work. Thank you for sharing that and making that available. Well, we’re just about out of time, and this is called Student Affairs Now. So we want to give a, we end every episode asking our guests, what is it that you’re thinking about troubling or pondering now might be something that is just about out of your mind at this moment in the world. Something is going on with you, or just at the end of this conversation. What’s really with you. So just real quick, what’s, what’s sort of on your mind now. And then if folks can connect with you, where can they connect with you? Maybe Twitter, email, LinkedIn, something like that. Erin Castro let’s begin with you. What are you pondering now?

Erin Castro:
Oh my gosh. I’m really pondering as to whether or not everyone on this call is going to be at the national conference of higher end prison in Denver. And if so, if we can find ourselves a little time to just grab a beverage and hang out because it’s lovely having all of you in one space. So I’ll make that plug for folks who are interested. We have a national conference this year, it’s going to be held in Denver. There are lots of scholarships to attend. So, you know, out-of-pocket costs tend to be really small and if you have a problem paying there’s also ways to get subsidies for that.

Keith Edwards:
Awesome. Thank you, Bryan. What’s on your mind now. What’s on your heart. Now. As the motorcycles fly by. Go ahead. What’s on your mind and heart now.

Bryan Jordan:
Well, hope is on my mind now. And I’m looking towards the future and education is a part of my hope. They are married. They are tethered together and, and remembering those that are incarcerated, that, that, like you said, that they’re human beings and helping that humanity stay alive. I think is a job that everybody that cares about higher education in prison is how do we keep the human dignity of those that are losing it by the second? So that’s, that’s constantly on my mind has been for a long time, cause I’ve seen it. I know the effects of it and I am in in many ways. So that’s, that’s kinda what I have to leave people with.

Keith Edwards:
I love that muscular hope in maintaining our own humanity and helping others and seeing the humanity in others. Thank you, Jarrod. What’s with you now.

Jarrod Wall:
I mean, I could go into the things I’m working on, like, you know, the wages versus student pay or the participatory action research I’m doing with you know, by the first step teaching research design with the women’s prison. But I think what’s hitting me at the, at this very moment is the fact that, you know, we have a 68% recidivism rate and department of justice. They defined it as failure, which I think is hilarious, but they never ask whose failure. Right. Okay. If I had a business selling fire extinguishers and they failed 68% of the time, am I going to blame the individual user 68% of the time? Or am I got to step back and say, oh, there’s something wrong with my process. My process sees that, you know, they’re failing 68% of the time. So I think we just have to start stepping back, looking at the larger picture, respect for the individuals.

Jarrod Wall:
Look, you know, we know education is one of the things that reduce it, but moving beyond that, we have to reframe our whole criminal justice system with the reframe, oh, what’s happening? How do we, why are people getting in here? Why is it more, this certain demographic versus others? How are we, you know, why are people being labeled now for life? And it facing 44,000 collateral consequences state nationally for life, you know, and the last point is just a lot of these spaces of even inclusivity are still getting people involved, their formerly incarcerate with whom they were comfortable. So we talk about the nineties, the nineties being the non-violent offenders the non-sexual offenders, all of these non anything that I’m not uncomfortable with, where, you know, the drug offenders is always going to be what people bring in. And I think we have to start challenging the narratives and looking at a harder question, violence in our country violent crimes. How do you reintegrate? How do we prevent, you know, there’s just a lot of issues that we have to start looking much broader at. And in this time we have to do it. We absolutely have to do it.

Keith Edwards:
Thank you. Really appreciate that. Edgar what’s what’s with you now.

Edgar Montero:
Well one of the things that I’ve been pondering on since I’ve got out of prison was a lot of the life for folks people who are doing life without parole, right? Like a lot of them are denied access to education or that fact, right? Because they see most facilities, administrators will see education as a means to you know, better improve the recidivism rate. And they don’t look at education as a means to improve people’s lives and things like that. Right. So I think a lot about those, those folks who are doing life without parole who do not get access to education because of that. And you know, I have a lot of friends who I left behind for facing that dilemma, you know, and I remember having conversations with them about it and, you know I just hope that these conversations sort of helps our communities to rethink those issues of education in prison and not look at education in terms of how does it reduce recidivism, but how can education help improve someone’s lives, whether they’re in or out of prison.

Keith Edwards:
Thank you, Dr. Erin Corbett what’s what’s with you now.

Erin Corbett:
So my current passion and interest and focal point is this question and issue of accountability and who is ultimately held accountable for program quality for the level of partnership between DOCs and higher ed institutions. I think we’re entering a phase where there is just an increased level of necessary collaboration that’s happening between these two systems, higher ed and corrections. And there are lots of conversations about how to hold higher ed institutions accountable, and they are all very legitimate, but there are almost new conversations about how to hold DOCs accountable. I hold myself accountable to many things. I mess up a lot. And Bryan has seen many of those mess ups and has been far more gracious with me, then he, then I have ever deserved. And so when I, when I think about and talk about accountability, it’s really in the vein of ensuring that students are having access to the highest quality programs that it is possible to put on.

Erin Corbett:
And sometimes that means that we have to hold DLCs accountable for not extending the level of partnership that’s necessary for not wanting to understand the different ways that higher ed institutions need to make things work, to maintain their accreditation, to maintain their title four status, to maintain, you know, X, Y, and Z. And so the sooner we can get to those conversations and also looping in, again, student affairs professionals to help have those conversations. I think we can really start to see some movement forward with programs that are really, really top tier high quality. I don’t think we will see the most of that or see it in its truest form until those conversations of accountability are happening and student affairs people are more involved in them.

Keith Edwards:
Awesome. Well, thank you all so much. This has just been a terrific conversation. I’ve learned so much, and I really appreciate each of you for the perspectives, the insight, the wisdom, the knowledge, and the brilliance that you’ve all brought. I’m just incredibly grateful for this conversation. I want to wrap up and conclude thanks to our sponsors today on this episode Anthology and EverFi. This episode is sponsored by Anthology. Transform your student experience and advanced co-curricular learning within Anthology Engage. With this technology platform. You’re able to easily manage student organizations, efficiently plan events, and truly understand student involvement to continuously improve your engagement efforts at your institution. Learn by more by visiting anthology.com/engage. For over 20 years EverFi has been the trusted partner for 1,500 colleges and universities with nine efficacy studies behind their courses. You will have confidence that you’re using their standard of care for students’ safety and wellbeing with the results to prove it transform the future of your institution and the community you serve.

Keith Edwards:
Learn more at everfi.com/studentaffairsnow. Huge shout out to Nat Ambrosey, the production assistant, who makes all of us look and sound good. All the work behind the scenes. If you’re listening today, not already receiving our weekly newsletter, please visit our website at studentaffairsnow.com scroll to the bottom of the homepage and add your email to our MailChimp list and check out the archives. I’m Keith Edwards. Thanks again to our fabulous guests and all you’ve brought today. So appreciative and to everything who’s watching, listening, make it a great week. Thank you all. Thanks everybody. Thanks so much. Thank you. Thank you.

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