Helena Gardner
Welcome to Here’s the Story, a show that brings Student Affairs to life by sharing the authentic voices and lived experiences of those who are shaping the field every day as part of the Student Affairs NOW family, we are dedicated to serving and furthering the people who walk the walk and talk the walk all of us find ourselves doing while serving students. You can find us at tudentaffairsnow.com or directly at www studentaffairsnow.com/heresthestory on YouTube or wherever you enjoy. Podcast, we like to thank today’s sponsor evolve. Evolve helps senior leaders release fear, gain courage and take action for transformational leadership through a personalized cohort based virtual learning experience, I get to be your host today. Helena Gardner, my pronouns are she? Her, hers, and I serve as the Director of Residence, education and housing services at Michigan State University. I live my life as a mom, a sister, a friend, a mentor, and I enjoy living my life as all those things. I am joined today by my good friend,

J.T. Snipes
Hey, y’all JT snipes my pronouns. Are he? Him his? And I serve as the Associate Professor and Chair the Educational Leadership department at Southern Illinois University, Edwardsville. That’s a mouthful, trying to say it fast. And you know, Helena, I’m just trying my best to live as a free black man in a world that will have me live otherwise.

Helena Gardner
Well, I’m glad to be in this number with you, and today, I’m always excited, like every time we have a guest, I’m like, Oh, I’m excited, but Imma tell you what I’m excited to introduce to you all, my real friend in real life, in real life, real friend probably been my friend a couple rotations on this journey. In fact, as we believe, Doctor Patrice Palmer, Patrice, tell them a little bit about you. Real friend.

Patrice Palmer
Hey, real friend. Alright, so Patrice Palmer, they them theirs. Pronouns. I serve as assistant dean and teaching faculty in the Department of Management and the College of Business here at Colorado State University. I am also a partner in B labs, where I work with Fortune, 100 501,000 companies in creating inclusive workplaces through HR, digital solutions to that. And one thing I will say is, if my friend Helena calls me, I have to answer, because that’s what you do in real life. That’s what you do. And so I am honored. I am always humbled by any time she asked me to do something, because she actually believes in whatever she does. So it’s never just, I’m just doing it for the sake of and so it is definitely a privilege to be here and be in community with some good black folk. I miss it. I miss it, and I’m thankful for it today.

Helena Gardner
Oh, thank you. That was so sweet. I appreciate you, and I’m always excited to bring Doctor Palmer into a space, because I believe Doctor Palmer does soul work, and it’s a natural storyteller by as a gift to us. And so I when the words fall, they touch the soul. And so today, I know you got a story to tell us, so you drop a story on us today.

Patrice Palmer
Alright? So let me tell you first thing when you talk about storytelling, I must give respect, I must give love to the Gullah Geechee people. I am Gullah Geechee. My mother born in moss, corn, South Carolina, specifically in Berkeley County, by way of St John’s Island. And we are natural storytellers. And so if I get too comfortable with you, that tongue gonna start to slip a little bit. But hold on with me. I promise you, I’m gonna get back to the intellect.

J.T. Snipes
We love the slippage.

Patrice Palmer
It’s okay. That’s real talk right there, right? So one of the things that comes to mind when I talk about any type of story is is thinking about how it shows up for students, and particularly students of color, students who come from marginalized identities, students who have been minoritized, even though they are not a minority. So let that sit with us. And this particular student came to me because of shared identities that that student and I had, and they were really trying to get into my college, which is the College of Business. We have very specific parameters to get into our college, and it’s not easy to get into. So student comes and speaks to me and says, This is something that they want to do. And one of the things that I have noticed is that when you have a student who is in a space that is predominantly not an identity that they share, folks are real good in telling them what they can’t do. And so that was not something that I wanted to do for that student. I wanted to be honest in what I provided them. And so as I’m talking to this student, I’m giving them the facts, I’m giving them my honesty. And what I’m noticing is that this student is kind of kind of dug their their heels in and not really understanding all of the context of what is needed. And so as they did, dig their heels in and say, I’m going to do this. I’m going to do this, recognizing One, who are under time constraints. Two, looking at the fact that they are losing money at this point. And three, they are a senior. And so everything is very much we only have a very short window to do this. And they were very much like, yeah, I can do it. Not a problem all these things. And I know that that is not true. You there’s no way to do it in the time frame necessary, knowing that our program by itself, by coming in, you’re going to have to do an additional almost two years to make sure. And so student is saying how they can do it, and I’m like, I’m gonna have to hit you with the truth in real life. Like I’m gonna have to, I’m gonna have to, I might have to hurt your feelings in this, and that’s not what I want to do, but I need you to understand the truth. And so as I’m giving them the truth, I can see their countenance start to change, cuz now it’s starting to set in. This may not actually be something I can do. And they begin to allow my door to open, and doubt decides to sit down with us. And as doubt is sitting in, she then invites defeat. And I’m watching this happen to this student, and in my head, I’m saying, but I’m giving them the truth. I am giving them the accurate account of what is necessary for them to know, and nobody’s going to tell them the truth. I owe it to them to give them the truth. But what I also recognize is that truth doesn’t care about feelings. And when you are talking with someone who is going through things, you we need to be intentional about going back to what we know. And what I originally wanted to give them was honesty. And in honesty, I recognize the difference is intent. And so I recognize in that moment that what I needed to do is I needed to give them the honest truth. And that’s not what I was doing. I was trying to choose, do I want to be honest in this moment, or do I want to be truthful? And I define that to that student as truth being accuracy that’s devoid of any feeling, and honesty being the thing that is a shared fact or reality. It’s something that casts transparency and sincerity, and there is no hidden agenda in it. I am giving you what I believe to be, and belief is the predecessor of hope. And if I take that away from them, I take away an experience that they’ll never get back, because nobody else is going to give them that, not the way I look, not what I can bring to them. And if I become the very system that tells them what they cannot do and never invite hope into the conversation, then I become the very thing that I say I don’t want to do. So as I’m working with this student, and I’m talking with this student, and I am inviting hope now into the space defeat. Gotta get up, gone so many chairs in the room. You have all of these things that now have to move because belief has to come in. Hope is coming in so the room can’t be crowded, because light and dark can’t be in the same room together, so somebody going to have to give up their seat, and we got two seats that are accounted for, so the other seats going to have to go up to what we are now inviting in the room. And so I’m giving this student that, and I recognize that in this space, in my position of power, I have to be able to understand how to give the honest truth to every person that comes in. I cannot pick and choose. We do not we cannot afford to pick and choose which one that can be. And so as I’m having this conversation, hope is here and belief is here, I give the student now two options if we decide to go this way. These are the things that we need to do if we decide to make changes, this is what we need to do, but I give you choice, and I’m going to present choice to you in a loving and supportive manner, but also recognizing that you’re in the driver’s seat of this. You. So recognize what you about to take and be okay with whatever that choice is, because good, bad or indifferent is going to be a consequence that’s attached to it. So the student says this is what they’re going to do. And I can thankfully say that I looked up my LinkedIn and I see somebody that I recognize. Why do I know this person and they’re saying that they’re graduating? And I go back to my email and I start looking at our email chain, put the name in. I see the email chain. I said, it’s you. You’re the one. This is what you chose. Not only are they graduating with a degree in the College that they wanted to be in, which was the College of Business. They also have a job, and they’re working in the field to which they wanted to be in all the time, and they recognize the risk that they had to take, but I knew that they would never be able to have done that if they did not have the honest truth. And that honest truth has to come from folks who have lived it, who have experienced it, and know how to invite hope and belief into the room. Because if they are not invited, they are, they are. Those are manners, and if they not invited, they won’t show up, just because. And so I think that’s something to take away, is that, how do we invite these things into the conversation? Because there may be some times where you have to be like, come on in and stay at the dough, depending on what is necessary, but it is a privilege that today I get to see that student walk across the stage and they begin their life in this work. And so that, I think, is what I hope to leave with some somebody today, is that when you give people the honest truth and meet them where they are, now you have a different seating arrangement that can show up for people. So, yeah, oh, you better talk

Helena Gardner
about seating arrangements that that’s a good word, right there. That is a good word, and we going to get into that. We’re going to get into that with some questions I got to understand about belief being a predecessor.

Helena Gardner
All right, well, well, let’s get back into some questions. Let’s get back into some questions. I’ll start with this one. You said that belief was the predecessor of hope, and it you also said that belief in hope had manners, and it’s the personification. I don’t know if that’s the word, okay, thank you. It’s a personification of that. Talk to me a little bit more about belief in hope, in that order, but as a product of honest you said you gotta be honestly truthful. Yes, yes.

Patrice Palmer
So what I mean by that is that in order for folks to have hope, hope does not manifest itself just because something has to spark it. Belief is the thing that sparks hope, and we’ve always had that in order for you to sit in a chair, you have to believe that that chair can hold your weight. Now that’s real hope that will hold up, right? So there has to be a belief first before hope can ever decide to say, No, I can step in and make sure that it happens. So that’s something that we sometimes forget. We just expect hope to show up, but because they have manners or are polite, if I can say that term, they’re always going to need an introduction. Mm, so there needs to be some type of invitation or introduction that allows for them to then do their work. And I think if we, if we wanted to go down the rabbit hole of how we say things, everything that is said has to have a specific there needs to be a specific equation to which that follows in order for it to equal out in the truth that you need it to be so when we talk about being honestly truthful, when belief is sparked, it then presents hate. Hope. Hope can then say that we now can have honest conversations, and that honesty then can translate to being very truthful, because I don’t want to give you information that just makes you feel good. I need to give you information accurate, and that accuracy allows you to make the best decision, because it’s not motivational. And I think we motivation a lot more than we really should.

Helena Gardner
Like trust, I’m I’m sorry. JT, I just wanted to say that sounds like like that, that hope will give you a little bit of trust. Because when I think about that, that chair, because I can think of chairs at a family cookout that I’m not sitting in like I can look at each other. That was not for me, that little kid should probably sit in that chair. But once I feel comfortable, then I can get into the space. Yeah, I can get into the space. And now that, and that, to me, sounds like, okay, now I can trust what is happening here. And maybe it’s not trust, maybe it’s come I can be comfortable which means any other barrier or burden that’s on me that was blocking me from receiving, Hm, that’s gone. That’s gone. Now you

Patrice Palmer
can’t have you can’t you can never be trusting and not be comfortable. There has to be comfort in trust. So I don’t, I don’t even think you can even have that without want those things go together.

J.T. Snipes
That’s it, right there. Sorry. JT, I cut you. Oh, no, no apologies necessary, because I feel like I’m off the vibe. Because when I I love the formulation, and have encountered what I loved about your story, right? I’ve encountered truth, unvarnished truth, right? Without the way that you describe honesty, and you said rightly, and I love this, right? It’s an invitation into a shared reality that acknowledges how people are feeling, and I’m indexing on the feeling right, because I do think in the moment that I’m in, maybe it’s just me. I feel like I don’t have the capacity to deal with the elites right what I have the capacity for right now, and because of my ethical commitments, is to truth. Curious. What would you say to someone like me who really is interested in getting to honesty, but may not have the like current capacities for anything other than truth. Oh,

Patrice Palmer
Oh, that’s that’s real, because we are in a climate that being truthful is now being interchanged with being honest. Well, I’m just giving you the honest truth, right? When, in fact, no, you just giving me truth you don’t. You don’t care about how I feel when I’m I’m embracing that thing you are only caring about in that moment being accurate. And your accuracy is really saving you. Your comfort now is in your accuracy and not in ensuring that I can do what I nest I need to do. So what I would honestly say for folks in that is one. We do need to check our capacity meters. We are tasked as, and let’s be again, being very transparent. We are tasked as black leaders to hold much more than we are truly designed to hold, and we still have to hold that thing in the parameter of whatever our our role is, right? And so there are times where you’re going to have to take a risk and be honest with folks, and as they come in, it’s going to be based on one year capacity to do that, because you don’t have to take them down a road once you give them that, you don’t just give them honesty and then let them walk away. That’s what you do. For truth. Take it and prove it. If it don’t work, now you can come back, but I know that what I’m giving you is accurate. So we have to also always look at our capacity to do that and then be honest with ourselves and our own feeling to say, what are we trying to give that student in the moment. Let me tell you exactly what the policy tells us in this moment, and then give them. Possibly have to give them that, or say, I may have to refer you to somebody else right now that’s going to be able to take you on this journey, because I can’t do it. And I think that’s something that we are so polite with one another, that we don’t, we won’t even check in and say, Do you have the capacity? Because we just assume that all of us Ain’t Got it. So everybody’s struggling as much as we are. And there are days, but there are other days where today I can hold the line. I got you. You need me. You need me to take this one. I got you. So being able to do that. So what I would say to anyone who’s in that position, know who your network is, and know how to engage with that network while being honest and truthful with yourself, and what that capacity is for you to do something for that student. Because obviously we’re going to too based on our policy, give you the truth. But when. Need to give them the honest truth. There’s going to be extra steps that you may not be able to do by time, by constraint or what have you, and you may have to pass it off. Let me, let me refer you out to somebody who I know can take you the rest of the distance. And I would say, Helena, we’ve done that many times together, like, Yo, I know I got somebody I can’t, but can you? And that’s how we were able to balance some of that low and then still support our community.

J.T. Snipes
Can I follow up to I’m thinking about there’s an element of vulnerability that you describe in honesty. And I’m wondering, are there moments that you actively choose to just be truthful and not honest? So I love to hear about how you make

Patrice Palmer
the question, no, that’s facts. And I have to there are times where the there I don’t have the capacity to take on all of the things that you are needed. I have to walk you through. I have to grow you up, sometimes in things or me, you didn’t have this conversation before, and I’ve given you the honest truth, and you did not take it. So what can I do when you are putting a barrier between us to get to the other side that you keep coming back and saying, What can I do to remove the same barrier that you are fixated on? Yeah, because

Helena Gardner
at that time, you’re not here for the truth. You might be here for something else, but it’s not the truth

Patrice Palmer
I named that I gotta name that in the space like this is the third time that we’ve had this conversation, what do you want? What do you want from me? Because I’ve given you what you need. But that’s not satiating you at this point, you want something else. What is that desire? Because I may not be the one to do that now, and I literally, I have a story about a student, a student of trans experience, who that was happening with, and I’m like, Girl, we I’ve given you everything that I can do to get you to the next point, but you not doing it. So you may need to fall. I may have to watch you fall, and I’m okay with that.

Helena Gardner
And I think that’s honesty too, though I think honesty can also look like I have taken you as far as I can, or if this is what you present, this is all I can give. And in that honesty, though I don’t know. At least for me, I find that if a person is ready and wanting to have a mutual reality, they come back home when they ready. They come back home when they ready to talk about it. Come home.

Patrice Palmer
You always, I don’t care what. I don’t care how bad home is. You always come back home, because that’s what you know, right? And so you know, regardless of what I have said, you know that you can come here and you can cry and you can vent and you can do and I am going to tell you to get your ass up, get it together and keep it moving, because, you know, I love you enough to do that. Mm, hmm, and that’s why you keep coming back. So maybe you’re not coming back because you need help. You need the familiarity of my voice. You need your mama to say, get it together. But Mama’s not here, so you need to have that type of maternal or paternal love to say, get it together in a way that nobody else can, and that is a community thing that can’t nobody else do but good black folk.

Helena Gardner
I mean, I’m saying with that, I’m saving with that. And I think that’s what takes our capacity, is when you gotta give love so far and everywhere that that starts to take your capacity. That’s what makes it hard for you to find the space to be honest, because sometimes, sometimes your breath done got taken away, and all I got is truth, but, but I love how you said earlier, and I just was reflecting on a time when I was able to witness you speak to a group of students in the exercise of having folks stand up and hold the line. I think, though, that sometimes that’s where holding the line comes in. And you said it like you refer them out to someone else who can help. But when you holding that line, you know that if you can’t extend, the other person is extending, and that person is, is then an extension of you, and they can do that and and for me, I think, I think that’s what’s important to this work. I think that’s important to this work is that as we are, gosh, as we are burdened and stretched and and filled with so many things, that we have our own networks, our own colleagues, across campuses, across the nation, ma’am, I’m thinking about three you just in different areas of work that are able to be an extension of home, right their extension of home for us, which then allows us to rebuild our capacity. City, or to to share out. And I think on another podcast. I don’t know if it’s today’s episode, you know, it just got me thinking about what happens when you that, what happens that we, and maybe it’s me, are starting to not have time for the line, right? We know the line is there, but the moments to hold, to build those communities, to build those connections, take a little back seat, because our capacity is stretched, not only by what we’re doing in our work lives, but what we’re doing in the world. What you think?

J.T. Snipes
JT you just, you just opened up something for me, because I think the imagery is so beautiful of us when we are in sync, working together to hold the line. And what I feel like has been happening, I’m just going to speak for myself to my own context, is that the folks we hold the line with are being taken out, whether it’s by like institutions not providing them with the compensation that they need, or increasing the amount of work that folks have to do, or just, you know, there’s this normal life circumstances that usher people in and out of spaces, but I feel like I’m losing key people that help me hold the line, yeah? And I feel my capacities to be honest and to and to know that, you know, to talk about this hope like I have hope that I’m holding the line with people. We’ve been through some things together, yeah, holding this together, and you take away the people that that I trust and believe and dream and have hope with so, like, your words spark something in me and I, I’m gonna spend some time reflecting on what both you have offered in holding the line that metaphor and Patrice, this text of honesty and truth. Like, Oh my god, wonderful, wonderful, right?

Helena Gardner
Like, it’s just, like, you just didn’t think of the difference. And, yeah, like, oh my goodness, I I’m just thinking about the service pieces of our work, the service pieces of our lives, and how service can look like truth. Service can look like exacts, but it can also look like telling a few, a few doubters and deniers to get on up from the table, right, get on up from the table and make some space. Because ultimately, when we’re out here helping folks, that’s we know what we’re here to do. We know what we’re here to help them do. And so on that note, on that note, we gotta wrap up this talk today, because we, we could keep going in our and Patrice, we, we always do. We always do. I’m I’m thinking of so many things, so many things. But today, today, that story came from a good friend, Doctor Patrice Palmer. We want to thank you for sharing your wisdom with us today that just, it just meant a lot to me. I give another shout out to our sponsor, evolve again. Evolve helps senior leaders who value aspire to lead on and want to unleash their potential for belonging and transformational leadership. Student Affairs NOW Dr Keith Edwards, along with doctors Brian Arroyo and Dawn Lee.The asynchronous content in six individual and six group sessions, maximize your learning and growth and focus time investment greatly enhancing your ability to lead powerfully for social change. Again. Patrice, we want to thank you. Great story. I’m going to reflect on this probably the whole of the day this has been here is the story part of the Student Affairs now, family, we are so glad you joined us to learn to cry, sometimes commiserate and definitely think real hard on the things that our guests are sharing. And we’re just grateful to be a part of the Student Affairs experience. If you have a story, and we know everyone has a story to tell, please consider sharing by leaving a two minute pitch via voice file at studentaffairsnow.com/herethestory. Every story is welcome. Every earnest perspective is worthy. If you don’t feel like sharing yours, you catch mine. You catch others at Student Affairs now.com you can catch it on YouTube, anywhere you listen to podcast, make sure you take a moment to like it, though, wherever you go. This episode has been edited by Nat Ambrosey, Nat, thank you for making us look and sounds so good. I again, am your host. Helena Gardner.

J.T. Snipes
I’m JT snipes. I’m gonna take a point of privilege to say thank you. Dr Palmer, man again, thank you so much.

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