Megan Gerhardt
So the we’ve thought a lot about what to call them, and we call them practices, because, you know, the goal of all things gentelligence is to help us have smarter intergenerational conversations. That’s really how I view it. You know, I’m not going to tell you how to manage your gen Z’s or your millennials, because, again, millions and millions of people. That’s not a one size fits all task, but I can to help you have a smarter intergenerational conversation and smarter meaning, how do we champion and value all of that different kind of expertise as valid and interesting and step away kind of from threat into the opportunity?

Keith Edwards
Hello and welcome to Student Affairs NOW. I’m your host. Keith Edwards, today, I’m joined by Megan Gerhardt, who is the lead author of gentelligence, the revolutionary approach to leading an intergenerational workforce, and Megan is going to help us understand a little bit about different generational things and how we can bridge those gaps and connect people with each other and bring about teams and organizations that can work well and effectively together across generations. I’m really excited for this conversation, Student Affairs NOW is the premier podcast and online learning community for 1000s of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs, we release new episodes every week on Wednesdays. Find details about this episode or browse our archives at studentaffairs now.com This episode is sponsored by Evolve. Evolve helps senior higher ed leaders release fear, gain courage and take action for Transformative Leadership through a personalized cohort based virtual executive leadership development experience and also Huron. Huron’s education research experts help institutions transform their strategy, operations, technology and culture to foster innovation, financial health and student success. As I mentioned, I’m your host, Keith Edwards. My pronouns are he, him, his. I’m a speaker, author and coach, helping hire leaders and organizations advance leadership, learning and equity. You can find out more about me at Keith edwards.com and I’m recording this from my home in Minneapolis, Minnesota, which is at the intersections of the ancestral and current homelands from both the Dakota in the Ojibwe peoples. Let’s get to our guest, Megan. Thank you for being here. Thank you for your book gentelligence, and thanks for the conversation today. I was sharing with you earlier I had a conversation with a colleague who saw you speak on campus and doing some speaking and some workshops, and was just found it really useful and really helpful. And so I thought I would reach out and bring this conversation to more folks. But why don’t you kick us off by telling us a little bit about you and yourself in this topic?

Megan Gerhardt
Thanks so much for having me, Keith. I’m excited to be here. I’m always happy to hear people are finding the work useful. So I am currently a professor of leadership at Miami University, the one in Ohio, always important to say I’ve been there about 22 years, and that’s relevant to our conversation, one because I have wonderful respect for all of our student affairs professionals and all the work they do on campus. Also, I think I have a good a good sense of the campus dynamic when it comes to generational interactions. And my work on this really, you know, I think that origin story that’s useful to share is that I’m so passionate about it because I have benefited from it. So all the work I do under the heading of gentelligence, which I know we’re going to get to in a minute, is really just inspired by the fact that my career is a product of really learning and benefiting from being an intergenerational workplace. And there’s no place more like that than a campus. We of course, always see the youngest generation heading into the workplace before they actually get there. So we kind of get a sneak preview for better or worse. And you know, my work was really inspired, starting as a faculty member on campus when I had just turned 26 years old, which meant I wasn’t that far away from my students in age, which was kind of interesting. It could have been awkward, but it was actually great. And just really realizing early on that even though they were only five years younger than me, their workplace viewpoints were starting to show up as a little bit different, that things were evolving. This was when millennials were first entering into campus. And then, you know, as time has gone on, continuing to watch how some generational norms have evolved, and really just fascinated that that tends to continue to be more of a point of tension and headache on campus and in workplaces than an opportunity, which is really where I wish and hope it would go. So all the work that I do is really designed to hopefully help other people have that positive experience working intergenerationally that I’ve been lucky enough to have.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, that’s a great intro. And Miami is a great student affairs hot bed with a great program in history and faculty and many, many students and many of our listeners maybe have been there or been influenced by folks who’ve been at Miami University in Ohio, the book is gentelligence. Why don’t you tell us about how that book came to be what it is? In a bit about it?

Megan Gerhardt
Sure. So I came up with that term gentelligence, which is probably new for most people listening about 2016 and I hope when you hear it, it just. Makes sense. It means we need to be smarter about the way we interact across generations, and that really represents all the work that I do. That when you work and interact with people across generations, you are sitting on many, many years of experience, different kinds of expertise, different ways of accessing knowledge, different strategies or beliefs about the way things can can and should be done, which obviously we can understand how that can be a challenge, but I view it as an opportunity. So gentelligence is really about shifting our frame to try to see it that way. The book itself is a product of the research and speaking and consulting I did for eight to 10 years prior to the book coming out, really shaping my own view on this, working with professionals across industries, working closely with my students to try to understand where those differences were coming from. And I wrote the book actually co wrote it with two former students of mine. So I think that’s really important. You cannot write a book about the power of generational differences by yourself, or you will get called out as being a big hypocrite, as you should, you know. And I, honestly, and people work on campus will understand this. I invited those former students because they missed being at school. They were missing that kind of, you know, learning, constant learning. I missed working with them, and I thought, well, this will be a great experience for them, you know. And I learned very quickly that it was much more than that, that they were bringing a really important point of view, not only to the subject matter, but to the project. So we published that book in 2021 from there, the you know opportunities grew, the you know idea, fortunately, began to spread. And then our really kind of big breakthrough was in 2022 We were asked by Harvard Business Review to write an article about the topic of gentelligence in the workplace. Specifically, how do we see age diversity as a source of power and harness it that way? So that, of course, as you would imagine, kind of brought a huge platform to the work. And now, in addition to loving and enjoying my work as a faculty member, I get the opportunity to travel all over the world and talk across industries, education is still a huge, you know field where this is this is really important. And I love working. I’ve worked with residence halls, Student Affairs, faculty, staff, you name it. Education is kind of where it all starts on this topic. So,

Keith Edwards
yeah, great. That’s a that’s a great setup. You mentioned before a couple times the the tension. How do we move the tensions into opportunities? So let’s start with the tensions, and we’ll move into some of the strategies for opportunities. So, so what are some of the stereotypes, the tensions and misperceptions that lead to some of this generational conflict?

Megan Gerhardt
Yeah, I think the biggest problem we have in this field is that just about all the training done in this area starts with those slides that have like, the name of the generation, the years you were born, the three things that happened to your generation, the two, you know, behaviors and attitudes that every person your generation supposedly shares and we’re done. I’m sure you’ve seen that presentation. I’ve unfortunately sat through that presentation. That was the kind of presentation I started with 15 years ago. And when we see that, or when that’s what we’re given, most of us disengage right away. We say, Oh, this is stereotypes. This is pop science. This isn’t real. That’s not me. You don’t know who I am, because I tell you the year I’m born, you know? And that’s very true. My doctorates in organizational behavior, so I’m all about individual differences and why people behave how they do at work. And that’s obviously very, very complex. You can’t boil that down to the year you were born. And so, you know, I think the stereotypes come from the fact that we’ve rushed to simplify this into infographics. I really, really hate. I’m a very blunt person. I really hate generational infographics, like, with a raging passion, like, when I see them on LinkedIn, and it’s like, Gen X sinks this way, has these behaviors, and this is how you manage them. It’s like, that is 60 million people like, you can’t, you can’t say something like that and think it’s going to work, all you’re going to do is upset people who don’t want to be put in a box. So I don’t do that. Intelligence isn’t about calling that out as lazy and saying, you know, generation is one really important layer of your identity, but it interacts with many other layers of who you are. But that said generational norms, frequencies of things that we may think and behave at a higher or lower level than our parents or our kids, are real that we can measure. That’s, that’s, that’s real science, and there’s interesting reasons why and intelligence is about getting to the why. Why? Did my generation have a different norm about work life balance than my parents generation? Why are we seeing Gen Zs be more open about their mental health needs than older generations have been? And so it’s really about that, and I think the stereotypes come from a couple places. One is the media. So the most horrible clickbait headlines in the media about, you know, this generational shaming and generational war that we are supposedly in. There’s also generational blaming, where whenever a new generation comes into the workplace, they’re different for lots of important reasons, but we don’t tend to like the fact that their norms are not our norms. So we we get very judgey. And every generation has gotten this. Gen Z is getting it right now. And so that’s where I think the shaming comes in. I think the stereotypes come in from those infographics, from the click bait headlines. But also the reality is we have age polarization on almost in almost every organization. Campuses are probably the one place where we get to break down that age polarization in a really amazing way, because a big part of our time, whether you’re in student affairs or you’re a faculty member, is spent interacting with students. And so, you know, we don’t necessarily experience that polarization the way many other industries do, and that just basically means you tend to move through an organization with people similar in age to you. So if I don’t have a connection or a personal relationship with someone who’s 23 as a colleague, then I’ll just rely on stereotypes. Or if I don’t work closely with somebody who’s 63 then okay, Boomer, you don’t you know. You don’t understand my world. It’s very easy to dismiss and generalize when you don’t have friends or close colleagues that you that you know, in that age group. So I think the stereotypes come from places that are pretty easy to understand, but we can do better than that. You’re

Keith Edwards
talking you’re bringing me in things like age polarization. I’m also thinking about age discrimination, which I think can happen against older people and against younger people in different ways, and the overlap and the intersectionality with things like race, gender, culture, ethnicity, how is power coming into this in addition to just the norms as you’re pointing to?

Megan Gerhardt
Yeah, what an interesting question, I think, a couple different ways. So traditionally, power is, you know, older to younger. That’s how I think most of us, my age and older sort of associate like, the older you are, the more power you have. That’s, you know, still obviously very prevalent in a lot of places. And I think with that, it means that, you know, whoever has the most power. Their norms tend to be the dominant norms, regardless of whether or not those are still serving the organization. So I want to say something about that first, which is that, you know, when our younger generations, and I tend anybody younger than me, I call a younger generation, I’m a Gen Xer, so millennials in in Gen Z for for the purposes of our conversation, you know, they were raised with unlimited access to information and explanation. Gen Z even more so than millennials, because Gen Z had Alexa and Siri and all of those things. And that has that along with the shift in parenting norms, where we really, with millennials, moved many children to the center of the family unit, and we were very interested in their their potential and their talent, and supporting their challenges in a way that that is largely very positive. And this is not, you know, but, but my generation, it was sort of like, don’t burn the house down and stay out of the way. And it wasn’t a sad story. It was just, you know, children were kind of supporting actors, and in our last two younger generations, our parenting norms have shifted to believe that that the kids are the main characters. And so here you have a lot of, not all of them, but many more young people who grew up being more of the center of a family. Resources going to them, schedules revolving around them, very scheduled activities and enrichment a lot expected of them. Also, to be fair, arriving in workplaces where the power, quote, unquote, was with older generations, who did not come in at the beginning of their careers and get voice and get the opportunity to have input, because that wasn’t the norm of workplaces at that time. So you have young adults that were raised to have voice and speak up and to contribute, and that their voice was valid, even as. A child working with older people who were raised that, you know, children should be seen and not heard. And now they’re not children, but they are entry level employees. And when they were entry level employees, you put your head down and closed your mouth and waited for your turn to be in charge. And so you have some clashing norms, and none of them are necessarily right or wrong, but when the power sits with people who maybe have more of those traditional norms, you know, we have a recipe for tension. And then the last thing I’ll say about that is, well, probably won’t be the last thing. But you know, when we wrote the book, the stat we found, I haven’t looked at the update on it, was that 41% of people were working for someone younger than them. That is pretty new in that it hasn’t been that long that having a boss who’s younger than you was was relatively common. That’s a very interesting upset. You know, we call that leap frogging, and whether it’s somebody my age who maybe wanted more work life balance. I don’t, I don’t view success as being the highest position in my organization. I’ve actually turned down roles that are higher than the one I have because it wouldn’t allow me time to do other things that I want to do. And so it’s very possible that a millennial could be my boss if they were driven to work their way up the ladder in a more, you know, efficient way than than I would have, or if that’s what success looks like to them. So that is upsetting some traditional views of power. You know, what happens when your boss is younger than you, or significantly younger than you? It raises some some threat questions for people that maybe didn’t ever like what about me? Am I still respected? Is this younger person going to respect me? Do I respect them? And so there’s certainly some interesting power dynamics, I think, to peel apart there.

Keith Edwards
Well, they’ve kind of unpacked the challenges and some of the difficulties we face in the book, you outline these four practices to be helpful, and they’re resisting assumptions, adjusting the lens, strengthening trust and expanding the pie. I think some of those I kind of get just by the name, and some of them require require a little bit more explanation. So maybe you can unpack each of these because, because you frame them as as the four key practices to help us see value and utilize these generational differences and norms as strengths, as you said, from tensions to opportunities.

Megan Gerhardt
Yeah. So the we’ve thought a lot about what to call them, and we call them practices, because, you know, the goal of all things gentelligence is to help us have smarter intergenerational conversations. That’s really how I view it. You know, I’m not going to tell you how to manage your gen Z’s or your millennials, because, again, millions and millions of people. That’s not a one size fits all task, but I can to help you have a smarter intergenerational conversation and smarter meaning, how do we champion and value all of that different kind of expertise as valid and interesting and step away kind of from threat into the opportunity? So the four practices, the first one I, you know, resisting assumptions. We sometimes call it identifying assumptions is, you know, the low hanging fruit. There is all the things you would think of as as an assumption, right? Like we, first of all, let’s not be carrying around age biases. So, so we, all you know, have heard, okay, Boomer, or on the other side, if you’re hearing your colleagues say, you know these young people today, or you know, Gen z’s, or no work ethic, like any of those sort of generalities that are rooted in a prejudice or bias, even things that sound sort of innocent, like, well, you know, Ted’s not going to want to come to that AI meeting. He’s got to be ready to retire any day. Like any of those things like, let’s do an audit that we’re not, we’re not walking around with those implicit biases, but I would say that practice actually is, is sometimes even more about the other kind of assumption, which I didn’t even realize when we wrote the book. It’s really been one I’ve seen much more in my speaking and in my consulting, which is, where are we assuming that we’re having the same conversation as somebody older, significantly older or younger than us. And actually, our wires are crossed, and we’re having an entirely different conversation, and we don’t even realize it. So, you know, this might be one of the the most interesting first talks I did for a healthcare organization, and healthcare is a huge part of what I do these days. They called me in because they were having very different generational ideas about transparency, and it was a big, you know, sticking point where, you know, they were kind of falling on the side of the older people who were in this organization, managers, leaders. Uh, feeling like younger people were pushing for transparency that it wasn’t appropriate for them to have. And younger people were saying, well, we want transparency. What are you hiding? And so I was kind of brought in to mediate that conversation. And before we got too into it, I said, Well, just for my purposes, when I say transparency, what does that mean to you, and within five minutes, it was very clear that they had slightly different ideas. So the older managers were thinking transparency meant access to confidential information that was kind of above your pay grade, whereas the definition the younger people were putting on it tended to be, I just want to understand why certain decisions were made the way they were. They weren’t even actually asking to be involved in making the decisions. It was more the why. Why was this done? Can you help me understand why this was happening and so that, in and of itself, like I could have just left after that, and I think they would have been in a much better place. But you know that makes sense, because that generations always gotten to hear an explanation, and now you’re not giving me one. What are you hiding? And so there’s lots of terms or phrases that I found in you know, flexibility is one, professionalism, certainly I know in student affairs, because my colleagues are working on this, like, Gen Z doesn’t know how to be professional. And it’s like, well, what does that mean? Because that’s in a subjective term. It evolves over time. We’re not wearing three piece suits, and, you know, putting jackets over puddles for women like those things like, evolve over time. And so, you know, the fact that we might be using or I’ll say to my students, you need to come to class prepared. If I don’t explain what I think that means, like, just get ready for that not to work. And so that’s the first one. And with all of these, I you know, and I’m happy to direct people to find them, but I give people power questions. So if you want to have a smarter conversation, what question do you need to start with? So for that one, it might be, you know when, when you say transparency, Keith, can you tell me what that means to you? Just something as simple as that. The second one, adjust the lens. Is really we’re saying Be curious, not judgmental, and be aware that, of course, we’re walking around with our own norms. We love our norms. Our norms work for us, and it’s very hard as humans not to judge other norms as wrong if they’re not our own. And so I equate this one a lot to traveling. You know, if you go abroad and when we prepare, I’m sure you have people in your audience who are working in, you know, global and study abroad, and I’ve had the opportunity to do that a number of times, and when we prepare our students for that, we say, you know, we’re going to a totally different culture. And the people there grew up different than us. They have different language and different norms. And that’s why we’re so excited to go, because we’re going to learn something new. It’s going to be fascinating, but also high likelihood we’re going to be misunderstood, or we’re going to misunderstand something going on. And that metaphor is exactly accurate in intergenerational work, because people grow up differently than you. They have different norms, different ways of communicating. So if we could bring that mindset into intergenerational we would be much better off. And so the power questions there are things like, can you help me understand? You know, if I have students have their phone out, I can get grouchy about it in class and say, like, that’s rude. Put your phone away, like I am teaching. Or I can say, Can you help me understand why so many people have their phones out and they might say, like, oh, you know, you mentioned this website and, like, we found this cool thing. And then I could say, oh, well, I’d love to hear it. Share it with me, right? Or I can be grouchy about it,

Keith Edwards
or you’re you’re using a lot of terms we’re not familiar with. We’re looking them up, right,

Megan Gerhardt
right? Or, you know, I the one of the very first adjust, adjust your lens. Experiences I had was in health care, and a woman stood up, she was a nursing manager, and she said, these kids keep taking their phones out in the exam room, and, you know, not paying attention, and it’s rude, and I’m not going to allow them to be rude. Like she was ready to die on that hill, like we were going to go down with that. And I was like, All right, so the phones are out. Like, that’s objective, is it some of them are being rude. Like, I’m not. Some of everybody, of every generation is just rude. And I’m not defending any of those people, but let’s just play this out. And I actually just asked her colleagues who were of all different ages, like, is there an alternative explanation of why the phone might be out that that you haven’t considered, and immediately, you know, you had people saying, well, I take notes on my phone, or I might have my questions for the doctor and my notes app, I might want to voice record the instructions, because I feel awful and I don’t even you. Know, I can’t figure out, or I’m going to look what time the pharmacy closes, or, you know, you can think of all the things. And you know, I won’t say that like her head spun around, but definitely she she nudged her way of look like she had been so invested in that point of view that the phone out means you are rude and awful that no, there was no room for any other way of looking at it. And so, you know, it was great. It led to a conversation about how, certainly, the phones don’t need to be allowed to be out, but why would we not want them out? And when might it be okay? And in those kinds of things. And then the last two, really quick strengthening trust is the third one, and that is about creating these environments where everyone feels like their unique point of view is valuable. It’s a psychological safety thing, where whether what we’re saying is, you know, you can ask for help here, whether you’re 17 or 77 and that is considered completely, you know, acceptable and normal, or you can have an opinion, and I love to share, because I think everyone can can understand this one, like when we all had to go on Zoom during lockdown, and, like, we had all the classes, had to be up in five minutes. Everyone had to be like, ready to do their job in five minutes online. You know, I had taught online for a few years in the summer. So I wasn’t, like, brand new to it, so I kind of stumbled through, I’d never used zoom before, but stumbled through getting a class set up that I thought was would work. And I had a colleague who’s maybe 15 years older than me, who was not real into tech, like, he had just gotten a smartphone a few years before, like, really didn’t like using Canvas, which is our learning platform. And he, to his credit, called me for some help on getting his class online, because that was a big jump for him. And I had said, you know, I don’t know exactly how to do this. I’m sure I’ve screwed something up, but, but if you have a problem during class, just ask your students for help, like, they’ll be happy to jump in and troubleshoot. And you would have thought I’d said, Can you please give me your kidney or something? Like he said, I would never ask students for help. And this was like mind blowing to me, because I ask students for help every day, like, whether it’s like, why is the YouTube video have no sound? Or, you know, I very first day of the semester. The last three semesters, I’ve asked them for help crafting an AI policy in class. So the idea that he’s and I said, why wouldn’t you ask students? And he said, Well, they wouldn’t respect me. And that’s like a very much a traditional point of view that like the person in charge is supposed to know how to do everything, and if they don’t, they won’t be seen as credible. So strengthening trust is, you know, how do you get that person to be willing to ask for help? If the right person to ask is 20? How do we make that totally acceptable? I don’t think my students respect me less because I ask them for help. I’m pretty sure they respect me more because I don’t think I know more than they do about everything in the world. And then the last one is, we call it expand the pie that comes from, of course, negotiation. It just means it. You know, the really big thing that hit me about this work was being open to learning from people older and younger than me, and being curious about that has made me better at my job. So how do we help everybody feel that way, that that kind of collaboration and learning isn’t just for younger people, or just for older people, but you personally can benefit from it. And I think all all we know about de and I right now, and all the things that are going on around that, is the only way people ever really get on board is when they personally experience the benefit of of learning or or seeing something differently from a different perspective, and, and that’s true here. And so the power question, you know, that I’ll throw out for this last one is, how would you do it, you know? So think of that AI example I gave you, you know, I go into class and I say, this is really tricky. I know this much about it. I can tell you how I use it, but, but I gotta figure out how, how we’re going to use it in here. And no one’s ever solved that problem yet, you know, so. So tell me about it. Like, how would you craft a policy? How would you decide we should use it, why? And then you immediately create this, like, mutual respect that your point of view is valid. It’s different than mine. And then the other thing you do, particularly with students, is when you ask, it’s like the act of asking is big, but then when they share their ideas, and sometimes they’re brilliant and sometimes they’re raw and sometimes they’re illegal. And I’ve had that happen, not with this topic, but other topics. I. Suddenly, I then have an opening to mentor and teach, which, particularly on campus, is so important, not as a lecture, like everyone sit down and write down everything I say is truth, but to say, like, well, let’s talk about that second idea that’s really, really interesting. I have some questions. Who do we need to get buy in from to move forward with that right things that you as an older person, for better or for worse, have experienced, like, do we have budget for that? You know, things that maybe as a young person, you haven’t, you haven’t seen that yet, and now we’re creating something together that we wouldn’t individually come up with. And that’s what the expand the pie is

Keith Edwards
that seems so useful because, and I think the AI example, I think you said you’ve done that at the beginning of the past three semesters of teaching. Well, even if you came up with a really great answer a year and a half ago, it’s no longer a good answer because it’s changing so rapidly and so quickly. And I think AI is very tangible example of that. But so many other things in our world are changing at such a rapid pace, and are going to continue to do that, that being able to turn to each other, collaboratively, ask for different perspectives, different tools, different ways of doing things, different contexts, can be such an asset to to all of our Learning. And you know, in your case, to the class, to you, but to the class and maybe, maybe to others as well. You’ve mentioned a lot of speaking and consulting. I’m really curious as you’re sharing this with others or speaking that people come up to you afterwards and say, yeah, yeah. But what about this real, challenging thing, or in workshops that you’re hearing? So what are some of the common challenges you’re hearing from leaders who are working across generations, and what are some of the things that you’re often recommending to them.

Megan Gerhardt
I think the themes I’m seeing most often, mental health in the workplace is a huge one, and of course, it’s on campus, changing norms around that. So, you know, I think I mentioned this in the beginning, but just the idea that, you know, we’re seeing younger generations who have grown up with whether it’s more support or more access to community on social media or less, I hope it’s less stigma. We’re still trying. We’re actually trying to collect more data on that. That’s not clear whether that’s really happening or not, but regardless, an openness, particularly in organizations. You know, I get probably at least one email a week, and maybe more than that, from a student sharing a mental health struggle they’re having and trying to whether they’re asking for an extension or just explaining their absence. That’s pretty new. I would say, within the last few years that that level of openness, I don’t think the the mental health struggle is new. I’m sure that’s been the case a long time, but it, you know, 10 years ago, they would have said, I just haven’t been feeling well versus my anxiety. I’m diagnosed with anxiety, and it’s very bad right now. And so that’s, you know, gentelligence would say, let’s ask why. Obviously, COVID and the reality that organizations were very concerned about your mental and physical health for a period of time. That would became a norm for Gen Zs moving into schools and workplaces at that time, but also, as I said, the community and the openness of their generation, I think we’re seeing a different psychological contract, where, you know, if you grew up with a lot of attention and focus on your challenges and your gifts as our younger generations have, you know, I think the idea that you would continue to vocalize your your need for support or speak up when you need help or support with Something would seem quite normal. And one of the things that younger generations don’t realize, and I talk to my students about this, when I talk to gentelligence about them, is often their that their norms are different. We know they’re different because we see them coming behind us. But when you’re young, you’re used to the norms of the people your age, and so if you don’t know that people haven’t always openly told their boss that they’re suffering from anxiety and need some time off to take care of themselves, you wouldn’t think that wasn’t a strange thing to ask for, or you wouldn’t understand why. Maybe that request doesn’t land the way you want. So the mental health thing is a big theme that we’re navigating that translates into other things like giving feedback. So whether it’s grades or it’s performance reviews, we have for better, for worse, really tried hard to protect younger generations from failure and with COVID and all the things they had to go through. So. You know, there’s just some things, I think, in their development that have been different. I don’t ever say better or worse, but, but maybe some things where, you know, we want them to be successful, more successful than than we were, and to if they fail, maybe they’ll be behind, or maybe they’ll end up on Instagram, or maybe it’s going to doom them forever, and as a result, we just haven’t really let them fall down the way that older generations just fell down, and it was like, I guess I’ll get up. And so the resiliency, or the belief that even if something is a disaster, that you’ll you can pick yourself up and move on and it’s going to be okay, there may be needing to learn that a little later, and when that’s in an organization and you’re the first person giving them critical feedback in their life, that has been falling really flat. I’ve written some things about that where it’s like they may interpret that as people don’t care about me here, and I’m gonna quit, like I can’t be in a place where people don’t care about me, or I don’t feel supported, or they don’t want to develop me, when the managers will come to me and say, I wrote a five page performance improvement guide, what do they mean? I don’t care about them. I wouldn’t have done that if I didn’t think they were had potential. And so some of those things of like walking them through. Have you ever gotten feedback before? How do you like to get feedback? Let me tell you about the first performance review I had that made me cry. But here’s also what I learned from it, and why I think in the long run, it was helpful. And like a lot of times, older people will say, well, nobody did that for me. Or they’ll say, like, I really have to do that. And you know, they called me so I’m like, you don’t have to do anything, but how your current approach isn’t working. And if what you want to do is develop people, don’t judge them for having a different experience. Let’s meet them where they’re at and then the last thing we’ll go ahead. I

Keith Edwards
was just gonna say that that whole rationale of Nobody did that for me is the justification or or I had to go through this is the rationale for hazing, right? And we see so many examples of good point. I’m not going to do this for you because nobody did it for me. Or I’m going to make you do this because I had to do this. Yep. And so how do we break free from some of those patterns and habits that that we were armed by? We don’t have to make that something we continue to pass on, right?

Megan Gerhardt
And I love to say, like, first of all, the begrudging leadership strategy is not a good one, right? I don’t think anybody would get on board with that. But also, you know, per your point, you know they weren’t, it would have been really nice if somebody would have sat us down before our first performance review and said, Let’s talk about feedback. Keith, right? That mean, that would have been lovely. So maybe we could be those people and and that does lead me to, kind of the final metaphor that I really love, and I’ve been using a lot, is, I think it comes down to, I’ll get an audience question about, like, so what are we supposed to do, just like, throw it all out because they don’t like it or they’re uncomfortable. Absolutely not intelligence is a two way street. I love this metaphor that I my husband is a contractor, so I’m trying to develop this in a way that’s that’s valid, but, but I want you to think about, like, let’s think about campus or the workplace as a house, right? Your organization is your house. The youngest generation always comes in and pushes on the walls of the house, right? That’s what they do. That’s why we love them. They’re very energetic, they’re idealistic. They have all these big ideas and dreams and energy and and some of the walls they push on are load bearing walls, right? Like we built this place with these walls, we’re not taking them down. They’re our values. They’re our mission. They’re what makes us special. So when they push on those whether it’s, why do we have to wait 18 months to be promoted, or why can’t I blank or why can I, you know, whatever it is that they’re unhappy with, if they’re load bearing walls, and we really, as older people, look at them and go, nope, we still believe in that one, that one’s still really important. And I’ll give you an example from student affairs. When I did a Residence Life conference last summer, we were talking about living in the residence halls as sort of like a rite of passage for a hall director, I think is what they were talking about. And younger people saying, like, we really would prefer not to do that. And older people saying, well, I had to do it. So you should have to do so we were talking about that and, and I said, Well, is it a load bearing wall? Like, is it one that if you don’t do it like, it’s gonna hurt what we’ve built, or is it what I like to call the 90s half wall, like, we built them a while ago because they were it seemed useful or decorative, or, you know, at the time, helped us. Everybody else had one. Everybody had one. And now we’ve been walking around that thing for a while. And if you ask, nobody’s exactly sure why it’s there, and it’s not serving us, and in the young, young people do the. Great thing where they’ll point out those walls too. And so I’ve been saying, like, when they push on the half walls, sit them down and say, I’m so glad you asked. Let me tell you why that’s so important here. Like, like, don’t get defensive, give them the explanation. But, but they need to respect. There’s a reason that wall’s there. You know, we built this way before you came. Is going to be here after you’re gone, and let’s talk about it. But then when they push on the half walls, we have to be willing to objectively look at that and go, you know, I’m actually not sure why that wall is there. That is an interesting question. Let’s, let’s take a look at that. Let’s see if it’s still serving our needs now in 2025 and so at that Residence Life conference, I said is, is asking your residence directors to live in the residence hall a half wall or a load bearing wall, I don’t know, because that’s not my area of expertise, but that’s the question you need to be asking. So I think that’s how you evolve, and you change, and you stay current while still not losing the really important parts of of who you are.

Keith Edwards
Well, I think both sides of that can be really helpful, right? The for some of us just questioning things that we just have taken for granted, and that’s just the way it’s got to be, the questions themselves can be really helpful, because we’re just used to that half long, right? And we’ve never even thought about, what if it wasn’t there, like this would never occur. And so the questions can help us think about things, maybe for the first time, and on the other side, hearing the rationale and the explanation, and this is the reason, and this is why can be really helpful. Because if we don’t have if we don’t understand the why behind it, then we can’t improvise or expand or take it in a new direction or or build something more on that. So I think we all benefit when one of the things I am often encouraging leaders to do is reconsider everything. You don’t have to change everything. But could you think about it just for 30 seconds, like, what if? What if we did change that? Nope, that’s got to say, okay, great, great. Be willing to reconsider. But we don’t necessarily have to change everything

Unknown Speaker
exactly.

Keith Edwards
All right. Well, we’re we’re going to move to our final question here and ask about what you’re thinking about now. And if there’s anything else that you want to throw in the mix, I would offer that up. But the podcast is called Student Affairs now, and they always like to end with, what are you thinking troubling or pondering now? And also, if folks do want to connect with you, where’s a good place for them to do

Megan Gerhardt
that? Yeah, um, you know, I think there’s, there’s two things I’ll throw out on what I’m thinking about now. And I’m an idea person. So there’s, there’s come fast and furious. I think the interesting, in addition to the mental health work I’m working on doing, I’m really interested in, how do we build cultures where we can encourage people to do intergenerational knowledge sharing. There’s not a ton of research, but there’s enough showing that in certain kinds of culture, if people across ages feel all the things that we talked about supported, Development, Opportunities, respected, valued, then they’re going to be much more willing to share what they know. And I think in the traditional sense of older or younger, that’s so important, because last year, we reached peak 65 meaning we had more people 65 years old than we’ve ever had before in history. As our baby boomers get older now, certainly they’re not retiring. You know, at 65 or anytime soon, for a lot of reasons, at the rate that maybe past generations did, but eventually we’re gonna have a huge brain drain in all organizations when our baby boomers decide they’re done working. And yes, things have evolved, and not all experience is relevant anymore, but there’s a lot of wisdom in there that we are going to lose because a lot of older people aren’t feeling heard or respected or appreciated, and they’re kind of thinking, well, you’re all so smart, I’m going to take my toys and go home. Good luck when I’m gone. And we got a sneak preview of that during COVID, when some of our baby boomers either decided not to come back to work, couldn’t come back to work, and suddenly, you know, Bob was the only one who knew how to do X, and Bob’s not here anymore. And there’s going to be that times, you know, 1000 and so I’m really interested in that. And then, as you said, with things like AI and how fast all kinds of changes happening, also normalizing the knowledge transfer from younger to older as being a lot more common or welcome. And so that’s top of mind for me. How do we really focus on building those cultures? And then the second thing just to be as time. Only as possible is I had a really great conversation yesterday about de and I with my honor students. I had to check that we were still allowed to talk about it like I checked the news and check all the things and and, you know, it was very much a conversation about how they were feeling and thinking and like, what was their understanding of why we had some polarization on the topic. And more, you know, more so than anything else. And I think there’s a very interesting generational piece to that, you know, I think, just like I said, when I say transparency, what does that mean to you? The connotation around the term is obviously fueling a lot of the debate. And you know, the situation on that, and not universally. I can’t speak for all my students, but I think younger people are very surprised, because they’ve grown up hearing that this, of course, is something that’s important and valued and and so, you know, I’m interested in sort of the generational differences and how they’re viewing the topic that’s going on right now, and the way organizations are responding. So that’s, you know, that’s not really a it’s more of just a food for thought around around the generational reality of that. So those are some things I’m thinking about. If people want to find me, gentelligence.org, has all of the things, so that’s got a place to get the rest of the power questions. It’s got links to articles and my blog and all those good things. Or they can find me on LinkedIn, where I love to post some ideas and food for thought around this topic as well. So those are probably the two places you can find me those are the easiest, for sure. So I would say gentelligence.org, is a good place to connect and find all the resources.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, it’s a really rich place with a lot of resources, and if they want to connect with you in other ways there, there’s newsletter and socials and all the things there. So I think that’s really great. Thank you, Megan, this has been awesome, and as I had heard, so helpful and useful and things that we can really put into practice to get beyond these tensions toward opportunities. So thanks for your conversation and sharing in the book and your work and for sharing it with us today. Thanks very much. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me, and thanks to our sponsors of today’s episode, both evolve and Huron, are you a higher ed senior leader who is knowledgeable and deeply committed to transformational leadership, yet find yourself unsure and not as effective as you know you could be? Evolve is a program I lead, along with doctors Brian Rao and Don Lee, helping senior leaders release fear, gain courage and take transformative action to unleash their leadership for social change. Evolve is a three month virtual experience, combining on demand modules, personalized coaching and powerful group sessions. Visit us to learn how you can help be a part of your next cohort, or talk with us about evolve for your senior leadership team and Huron celebrates. Huron collaborates with colleges and universities to create sound strategies, optimize operations and accelerate digital transformation by embracing diverse perspectives, encouraging new ideas and challenging the status quo. Huron promotes institutional resilience in higher education. For more information, visit go.hcg.com/now and a huge shout out to our producer, Nat Ambrosey, who does all the behind the scenes work to make us all look and sound good. And we love your support for these important conversations. You can help us reach even more folks by subscribing to the podcast on YouTube and our weekly newsletter where we announce, announce each new episode each Wednesday morning. If you’re so inclined, you can leave us a five star review and help it reach even more folks. I’m Keith Edwards and to our fabulous guest today, and to everyone who’s watching and listening, thank you and make it a great week.

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