Kim Monteaux De Freitas:
I think about sense of belonging. I think about friendships, I think about like how do we help one another achieve goals, or even be able to think about what is that next goal, or how do we help individual tools maximize their talents and skills. And that can be as an undergraduate student, an alum colleagues.

Keith Edwards:
Hello, and welcome to Student Affairs NOW. I’m your host, Keith Edwards. Today, we’re talking about fraternity and sorority life. I’m joined by three leaders who are here to discuss the benefits, challenges, and future fraternity sorority life on college campuses. I’m so excited to learn from each of you. Student Affairs NOW is the premier podcast online learning community for thousands of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays. Find details about this episode or browser archives at studentaffairsnow.com. This episode is sponsored by LeaderShape, go to leadershape.org, to learn how they can work with you to create a just caring and thriving world. This episode is also sponsored by Vector Solutions, formerly EverFi, the trusted partner for 2000 and more colleges and universities. Vector Solutions is standard of care for student safety, wellbeing and inclusion.

Keith Edwards:
As I mentioned, I’m your host, Keith Edwards, my of pronouns are he, him, his. I’m a speaker and consultant and coach. And you can find out more about me at keithedwards.com. I’m broadcasting from Minneapolis, Minnesota at the intersections of the ancestral homelands of the Dakota in the Ojibwe peoples. Let’s get to the conversation. I am so excited to have all of you here; Leaders on campuses and in the profession. So glad that you’re here and love to have you all introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit more about you. I think we’re gonna start with Michelle.

Michelle Guobadia:
Hello friends. My name is Michelle Guobadia. My pronouns are she her and hers. I am the director of fraternity and sorority life here at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte. I’ve been the director here for the last 14 years. I tell people it is my dream job. I am a member of Zeta Phi Beta sorority incorporated. I’ve been a member for 22 years this year, and that has really probably informed my career becoming a sorority woman as undergrad, and then going into this field, I’m also a speaker and a facilitator for the catalyst agency speaking specifically on anti-hazing, Greek leadership and diversity in our councils. So those are the kind of the professional things that I do, but I’m a proud member of the association and sorority advisors and I believe in fraternity and sorority life even today. So that is a little bit about me friends.

Keith Edwards:
Awesome. Well, we’ll love to hear more about why you believe in it and why you add even today. So really great to have you here and, and Michelle and I go back to when she was an undergrad, so we’ve known each other for a long time, so great. That’s right.

Michelle Guobadia:
I was an RA under you.

Keith Edwards:
That’s right. That’s right. I knew you when. Chris, we’ve not met before today, but tell us all a little bit more about you.

Chris Graham:
Thanks Keith. I am Chris Graham. I am coming you from Tallahassee, Florida, where I live and work. My pronouns are he, him, his, I have the pleasure and privilege serving as the director of fraternity story life at Florida State University. I’ve been here for the past eight going on nine years. And I also have the pleasure and which serving as the current president of the association of fraternity sorority advisors. And I am a proud member of Alpha Phi Alpha fraternity incorporated. I joined as a collegiate member at undergrad where I went to school at, went to Salem state university in North Carolina. So very familiar with UNC Charlotte, where Michelle works. Like Michelle, I too believe in the power and potential of this experience and this thing that we know in love called fraternity sorority life. And I’ve dedicated the better half to the last decade or so working in this industry and doing all that I can not just on my campus, but collectively across the country to try to help make a difference not just with our students, but also with my colleagues that work in this industry professionally. I’m excited for the conversation today.

Keith Edwards:
Yeah. Thanks so much for being here, Chris, over to you, Kim, you were on a previous episode with Glenn on recovering COVID. So really to have you back with us and talking about fraternity sorority life. Tell us a little bit more about you.

Kim Monteaux De Freitas:
Yes, thank you. Thanks for the invite. So I am Dr. Kim Monteaux De Freitas she/her pronouns. I’m the director here at the Ohio State University in Columbus. I’ve worked at land grant institutions for about 16 years of my 20 ish career. And I’m very proud of Phi Sigma Sigma. This is my 25th year of membership. I can’t believe that that has just flown by and I’m thrilled to be here with my colleagues that I, I really treasure their friendship and this conversation and the fact that we are just so committed still to sorority and fraternity life is, is very exciting. And I am also one of the NASPA national fraternity, sorority knowledge, community chairs, and also volunteer for the association. Thanks for having me.

Keith Edwards:
Awesome. Well, thanks to all three of you for being here. I think this will be really engaging and really interesting, but let’s just begin when we’re talking about fraternity sorority life, what really does that include help bring folks who maybe are less familiar, really up to speed. And I think Chris, you’re gonna lead us off here.

Chris Graham:
I’m gonna defer to, I certainly am a leader in the industry, but I will defer to Kim to kick us off since she’s been affiliated the longest. So let’s start with Kim.

Keith Edwards:
All right, Kim.

Kim Monteaux De Freitas:
Oh gosh. So restate the whole thing then. Cause I, you caught me off guard, Chris

Keith Edwards:
That’s okay. When we’re talking about fraternity story life, what does all of that include? Literally? What are, what are we kind of talking about here? Oh

Kim Monteaux De Freitas:
My gosh. So for me, like if I, I am to make it personal I’m the first for my family to graduate for from high school. so that is something that is very meaningful and impactful for me. So when I think about sorority and fraternity life and, and what that all encompasses at the center for me as a sense of belonging, and that can mean a lot for every single individual. I’m sure we can all say something on this podcast. But I think about sense of belonging. I think about friendships, I think about like how do we help one another achieve goals, or even be able to think about what is that next goal, or how do we help individual tools maximize their talents and skills. And that can be as an undergraduate student, an alum colleagues. Yeah, so I’ll stop there because I know that Michelle and Chris will have lots to add as well.

Michelle Guobadia:
I think we were thinking about fraternities and sorority life. I think about leadership and I it’s weird that not when me goes there, but the motto in my office is hashtag we make leaders and in fraternity and sorority life, we can really facilitate foster and really enrich leadership in a lot of different ways. I have first generation students who have never been the president of an organization with 150 people. That’s a leadership skillset. We have students who have we done recruitment and how, how do we recruit or bring people into our organizations that is, that is leadership. We have students that we train so they can facilitate conversations with their peers or potential new members or other stakeholders. That’s leadership. I think time and time again, you’ll see some of the best leaders on college campuses really get their start in something like fraternities and sororities alongside with RAs and tour guides. But fraternities sorority life is an opportunity where you can get a lot of people exposed to leadership development, and that’s gonna be enriched for as long as they’re in the organization, at least at the undergraduate level and for some organizations beyond.

Chris Graham:
I think that’s great. If I could add anything, I would say, you know, I agree with, with Kim and, and Michelle about the belonging leadership pieces. And I also just think about like the word connection really resonate with me. When I think about fraternity and sorority life, like, you know, there are a lot of other types of organizations and opportunities and initiatives on all of our campuses that allow students to help students develop their leadership skills or develop a sense of belonging, but how that connection is fostered within and across that the fraternity sorority experience is different. You know, like we all, we all shared proudly our affiliations and how long we’ve been affiliated. Right? Because that means a lot to us personally, but it also means that we are part of something that’s than ourselves, the respective chapter that we, I mean, it’s, it’s very deep and meaningful, right?

Chris Graham:
Like if you meet a sister or brother in, in the airport, you meet a sister or brother, you know, you’re driving down the road and you see somebody with the tags on their car and they’re pulled over. I’m gonna pull over and help my brother change his tire. If that’s what he needs at that moment. If I was in Senate or the basket weaving club with somebody, I’m probably not gonna, I’m not inclined to do that. Right. It’s not because I’m not a good person, but the sense of connection that we have to, and with each other, its just very deep and rich. And I think because of those connections, because of that sense of belonging, because of the leadership, there’s a deep sense of affinity that we have, not just to this, to the organizations, but to our Alma maters, to other people in the community.

Chris Graham:
You know, like I probably tell people some of my closest and best friends are sorority women in fraternity men, in other organizations outside of the organization that I’m affiliated. Right? Yes. And I think about the affinity that I have to my alma mater, a huge part of that is because of how I came to care about and love the, or the, the institution through my organization. I mean, it’s not, it’s not happenstance that at, it doesn’t matter what institutional type, it could be a small private, it could be a large public land grant like Florida State or the Ohio State or UNC Charlotte or Winston-Salem State university for that matter. Most of the leaders on, on the board right. Most of the folks who are giving back to the institution are overwhelmingly affiliated that. I don’t think that’s just happenstance it’s because of the experiences that those folks had while they were in undergrad and beyond.

Chris Graham:
But it’s also the skills and opportunities that they were able to develop and leveraged that afforded them the opportunity to be successful professionally. The last thing that I’ll share that comes to mind for me is that people don’t often think about that. I think we need to think more about, especially considering the environment right now is I, I remember very vividly the experiences that I had with my brothers in undergrad in those early developmental experiences taught me how to disagree with people, people that I loved deeply and people that I did not care for as much right. Like whether those were my brothers or whether it was people in other organizations or people that, that, you know, they weren’t even affiliated, but being in a fraternity really taught me how to disagree with people. And again, people that I love dearly and then people that I certainly had very little affinity for altogether, but that sense of stability, that sense of being able to walk up to somebody and shake their hand and lift them in the eye, even if I disagree with where they were coming from or their approach has really been meaningful to me personally and professionally.

Keith Edwards:
I really appreciate all three of you sort of leading with this around some of the benefits about leadership and belonging and connection help folks who maybe aren’t as familiar. And, and I don’t know who wants to lead us on this, but what are the different types of organizations that people are affiliated with from IFFC and Panhellenic and multicultural Greek organizations? I think so much has been added over time. Could you help us understand that a little bit better?

Michelle Guobadia:
Yeah. I’ll chime in a, a little bit on that. I think at the baseline fraternity and sorority is fraternity and sorority and all of, regardless of the letters on your chest, all of those groups deserve respect and resources on college campuses, regardless of how big the council is, how big the chapter is, all of them, there should be some equity across the board that always, that hasn’t always been the case in our field. So of course you think about pen organizations, which usually are some of our biggest organizations on campus. Sometimes they are the majority in representation, on a campus of, of women, sometimes not depending on the campus, you go around the country, you see a lot of very diverse councils, but when you, when people think sorority, usually Panhellenic is the imagery that comes to their mind.

Michelle Guobadia:
The, on the flip, when we look at IFFC or inter fraternal council organizations, again, usually the majority of student representation on a lot of colleges and camp campuses, and they usually the men’s groups, the largest men’s groups. We also have NPHC, which is the national Penn Atlantic council, which is our historically African American fraternities and sororities at the national. There are nine of them, individual organizations. And you may or may not find all nine on a college campus. Actually. It’s kind of rare that you find all nine, but when you do, it’s like, oh my God, this is great. But again, historically African American organizations, so where you’re gonna find African American students in those groups, however, you’re gonna find students from across the spectrum in that, right? Because they were because they couldn’t join some other groups that were on campus. So they haven’t closed their doors to what it look, what you need to look like to be a part of the organization.

Michelle Guobadia:
What I tell students is if you’re down for the cause, then this may be the group that you are down for. . We also have multicultural based organizations in a lot of different areas. We have Asian fraternities and sororities. We have south east Asian fraternities and sororities. We have LGBTQ organizations. We have Latinx fraternities and sororities. We have multicultural fraternities and sororities. And depending on what campus you’re at, they’re organized differently. They could be in a multicultural Greek council. They can be in an Asian Pacific Islander council. They can be in our groups are called DJ diversified Greek council, but we also have groups that don’t fit into any of those things. I have a music fraternity. I have a stem sorority on my campus. I have a Christian faith based sorority and a Christian faith based fraternity on my campus fraternity and sorority does not look like it did eons ago in movies where it was, it was just a binary fraternity sorority.

Michelle Guobadia:
And this is what it look like. There’s everything in between. We tell students, if you wanna be Greek, there’s a way to do it. And it’s not the way you think there are opt, there are options on what you want your fraternity and sorority to look like, to feel like, and to be, and depending on which one of those groups you join, your affinity may look different, your commitment to the organization at the undergraduate, it, or even the alumni level may look different. The, the, the funding and how much it is to join may look vastly different as well. But I think it’s important for our professionals to one, be culturally competent in understanding that it comes in a full spectrum and it to be a good professional, you need to understand all of that and you should be treating them all the same, but they should all be respected and resourced at the same level, which I think is very important on campuses.

Keith Edwards:
That’s such a great, quick, concise primer on all these different organizations. You did a wonderful job. Would you wanna add anything

Kim Monteaux De Freitas:
To that now? I, I mean, maybe not add, but just like reiterate the part about equity of resources. Oftentimes we just add a council on to a title, or we put a little bit of money over here because there’s less members. So that is huge. And just thinking about how are we spending our time and being open to the ideas. I feel like I’m constantly having conversations with colleagues about whether it’s their Christian based organizations or professional fraternities and sororities that are, you know, having a social experience and wondering like how, how to work with these organizations, how to support these organizations. So I’m really glad that Michelle put that out there. Yeah.

Chris Graham:
Yeah. I would agree. I just, I don’t, I don’t think that can be reemphasized enough about the respect and resources and you know, one of the things that I always, when I get the opportunity to, in my role as AFA president get to engage with senior level administrators or aspiring senior level student affairs administrators is to try to help them understand. I think Kim and Michelle would agree regardless of the type of fraternity that we’re talking about when, when the fraternity and sorority community is strong and thriving. So is the student experience. Yeah. So when my NPHC is thriving, they’re doing like programming, they’re engaged. The, the morale is high. The same is true for the black student experience. When my, we call it multicultural multicultural Greek council on my campus, when my is thriving, morale is high they’re programming. Like they have high attainable goals.

Chris Graham:
The, the, the, so I mean the students that identify with that community, their experiences enriched as well. And so that, that resource component and respect component cannot be reemphasized enough because it bleeds over to the entire campus community. It’s not just about the 26 people that might be affiliated with the multicultural Greek council. It’s about that entire student community and population. Even for those students who have not made the choice to become affiliated with one of those organizations. The last thing I’ll say very quickly is the first, I’ll say it’s important to, to understand the history of these organizations and why they exist to begin with and why different types of organizations exist. Right. I’m not gonna give that list history lesson here , but, but it’s very important. And I don’t, I, I think it’s incredibly difficult to respect and re source those org, all of the organizations when you don’t understand the history about them to begin with, from that though on the respect piece is it’s very important.

Chris Graham:
So like working on a college campus, one of the things that I try to encourage my colleagues to do, some of them really struggle with it is to stop saying things like, oh, sorority recruitment in the fall. No, not all of my sororities are participating in taking new members in that fashion or in that structure, in that process that is not sorority recruitment. It is the pahellenic association of recruitment process. That’s how they will take members, Zeta Phi Beta, Delta Sigma Beta, et cetera, et cetera. They will take members in a different way and it will not be called worded recruitment. So I also think that respect piece is about language and how you show up and give access to all of the different types of organizations.

Keith Edwards:
Yeah. I love all of you emphasizing the equity, which is not treating everyone the same and really highlighting resources but also respect and the language and, and, and our, our knowledge base and, and being aware of that. I really appreciate that. We, we, you all mentioned some of these benefits, connection, belonging, and leadership. Let’s talk a little bit more about the benefits of student involvement in fraternity and sorority life today for the students, which I think we’ve talked about for the institutions and for the broader society. Chris mentioned a little bit of this. These organizations have an impact beyond their members on the broader campus community in lots of different ways. Kim, why don’t you lead us off here around some of the benefits to students, institutions and the broader society.

Kim Monteaux De Freitas:
Yeah, definitely. Obviously now that you made, we have mentioned quite a few things already, but I think some things that are worth mentioning that we haven’t talked about is the retention. So thinking about like the institution schools, again, no matter what type of university you go to, we really want to make sure that we are retaining those students and graduating those students and really thinking about their academic goals because right. That’s why we hope that they’re here. And I, I believe that our fraternities and sororities also have that goal. They want to retain their members. They wanna also see them graduate, which as Chris talked about a little bit earlier thinking about the affinity that one can have to their organization and university, like we want to make sure that we help encourage that and build that so that those alums continue to come back and whether that’s just celebratory to you know, tell a different person like, hey, you should check out my university or my organization, or maybe eventually that is the encouragement of a donor.

Kim Monteaux De Freitas:
I also think about which we talked a little bit about with the leadership, but how is that also coupled with being civically engaged and serving our community? Thinking about those leaders roles in voting and talking about all sorts of engagement, right? So whether that’s voting or getting into the community and just being a good neighbor, which is so awesome. And we want them to be good neighbors, not just as college students, but for life. Right, right. And gosh, yeah, we already talked about sense of belonging. I would say retention engagement and I’m sure Chris and Michelle are gonna add on that’s where I would

Keith Edwards:
Start off. Michelle, what would you add on there?

Michelle Guobadia:
Add on the alumni engagement part, that’s a huge part and a benefit to the institution and to the Al mater. Chris mentioned a little bit about that affinity. We are a fundraising pool. I will be very honest, a large reason why I give back to the University of Delaware Go Blue Hens is because I became a Zeta there. My experience there was fantastic. So when they call me, make a donation, I’m here for it. Fraternity and sorority life makes you increasingly philanthropic and, and with philanthropic giving mixed in with high affinity, it’s gonna get you great results. So it’s not about keeping the alumni happy. It’s knowing that having a good, healthy Greek community, it’s gonna produce alumni that have not only a high affinity for their organization, one for the institution. So it’s easier to fund a leadership development of retreat to endow in office, to, you know, create systems or programs for students in that area that they have a high affinity to.

Michelle Guobadia:
And because that is inherent in the fraternity and sorority experience, good institutions are tapping into that. I think about some of the best Greek communities in the country. They have endowed offices for fraternity and sorority life by alumni. The student union here at my institution is, is the name on, is one of, is one an alpha from one of our chapters here. That’s huge to have a black man. Who’s a member of Alpha Alpha on our student union, right? And the chapter’s proud of that. The MGCs proud of that. And they wanna give they’re like, Ooh, one day I’m gonna become the next guy. Get to put a name on, on a building. I have students graduate all the time. They’re like, how much can I write a check when I I’m like, as much as you’d like, I will, we, we got plenty of things to bring it’s because of their affinity to the experience. And so fraternities who life should be working hand in hand with alumni engagement and the foundation, and really setting up opportunities for ways for alumni to give in a way that feels really important and special to them and is an easy to make for a leadership development course, a leadership development activity, funding students to go to a conference, making an endowment for scholarship. That is an easy case. I do not have trouble selling that to alum who want to give money and already feel a high affinity to their organization and to the institution.

Keith Edwards:
Yeah. Awesome. And we, we’re talking, we talk, talked about the leadership and belonging and the connection, the retention of students donors Chris, you even mentioning, you know, helping people when they’re, when they need their entire replaced. And, and Kim bringing in the civic, I’ve done, I’ve had to do that. So right there it is. The, the, the, the civic engagement from voting the service, the philanthropy what else would you add here about some of the benefits to students, institutions in society of fraternity, sorority life engagement? I think Tim and Michelle summed

Chris Graham:
It up. I, I just, people talk about tangible skills and soft skills. I don’t think they’re soft. I think they’re critical skills that you need to and survive in society. Right? So all of the things that we’re hitting on, I think it’s important to not take those opportunities in those, that skill development for granted, I, in other student organizations on campus, and I can tell you, it’s not even close in terms of the development that I got in my fraternity in comparison to the other organizations that I were part of. And it’s not about those organizations being less than it’s just with how they’re structured or the purpose that they have. Some of those opportunities don’t exist. You know, I mean, , we’re talking about the size of the chapters, right? For some of our organizations, they are running, there are small businesses that are not nearly as large as some of my sororities and fraternities.

Chris Graham:
Right. , if you think about a budget perspective as the vice president finance or the treasurer you are managing in some instances, upwards of a million dollar budget angle, think about that. Think about what that means to be 19 20, 21, 22. You’re so managing that sort of income and revenue, the experiences that you get from that regardless of your major, but in particular, if you have aspirations to do anything with finance, accounting, et cetera, right? Like , you’re, I mean, that’s three or four years of experience that you, you know, I mean, you can’t , you can’t make up that up in, in other types of instances. Right? So that’s one example. Another example is just the, some of the skills that you’re not gonna learn through a textbook or through an academic course. Like I was talking earlier about how to disagree with people.

Chris Graham:
Kim was talking about civic engagement. I mean, when I joined my fraternity, I had to be registered to vote. To be honest with you, I mean, I didn’t grow up in an environment where we were super civically engaged, so I had never really thought about it, but my first time voting was because I was registered because I had to be in order to become an alpha . So I just think there are some inherent things that sometimes we don’t even think about because we do this every day, or because we’re not even aware of it, that really is helping. And our students be prepared to be civically engaged, be prepared to, to be a leader in society and disagree with people. You know, Michelle answered the question about all the different types of organizations. So many college students, especially in today’s environment with how we built residents halls with the virtual learning, even before COVID.

Chris Graham:
So many students can go through the college experience. Unlike when the three of us were in college or four of us for that and stay in their bubble, right. I lived in a residence hall that there was one bathroom on the floor. Now they built residence halls where you, I mean, , it’s, it’s insane to me, but you, you could, my point is you could go through the entire academic college experience and literally stay in your bubble in fraternity, in sorority life. That is almost impossible to do my panhellenic women, get to engage with the women and the men for that matter in all the other councils and vice versa for any other council, they are seeing and engaging with people that are different from them, from the very beginning of their membership experience. And that’s beneficial, not every registered organization on a college campus is gonna have that opportunity to learn and grow from and engage from people that are different from them. So, I mean, I could talk about this forever, but I think we don’t think about, and we don’t think about the difference that that’s making an impact for sure.

Keith Edwards:
But I mean, hearing from all of you, the, the benefits really is about the the level of intensity of this experience is really kind of unmatched, right? It’s the level of engagement, it’s the depth of engagement. It’s the level of intensity the scale to size, the connection the people, the level of involvement you all started off saying you’re big believers in fraternity, sorority life, and that’s why you’re leading these organizations that you’re in and doing the great work on campuses. And you also know some of the challenges. So Michelle, maybe you can lead us off. What are some of the challenges you see facing fraternity sorority life? Right now

Michelle Guobadia:
It’s, it’s no secret that fraternity sorority life has had to play defense for a lot of years. It’s been a long time since we’ve been on offense, and we’ve been able to share our story and tell our story. Usually when you hear about fraternity and sorority life, it’s like, but it’s not like that. And this is an isolated incident, or this is a problem we’re working on. And so we’ve had some challenges and I don’t think anyone who works in the field denies that just like in any area of student affairs, I think unfortunately there’s some problems that we probably should have eradicated by now that we’re still struggling with. But I want to say very clearly before I dive into some of those that it’s not a Pater and sorority issue, we’re dealing with the human condition issue. Every time you bring humans into the mix, you’re they have an option of right and wrong.

Michelle Guobadia:
And yes and no. So when we put that in with 18 to 22 year olds, things that seem logically like this is just what we should be doing is not always so logical. So we are still struggling with hazing. Hazing is not something that was birthed out of fraternities and sororities. Hazing is something that the human condition allows choice in, unfortunately, right? So students are choosing to engage in it. Students feel like they have to students feel like they’re pressured into students, feel like this is the way and the light and the truth. And so they’re still engaging in it, even though we’ve poured thousands and millions of dollars in education and redirecting behavior and consequences, people have been sued and people have died from hazing. And yet we’re still struggling with that, which tells you, it’s not a fraternity and sorority issue. It’s how do you get across to humans?

Michelle Guobadia:
Like we probably shouldn’t do this. So I think hazing is one of the areas that I’m passionate about eradicating. And, you know, I commit a lot of my speaking to that, but hazing is something that’s still a part of the fabric that we’re dealing with, that we’re trying to cut out. I think my colleagues can speak to some of the areas like alcohol, sexual assault and those are some other things that have plagued us along the ways as well, but we’re still combating that some better than others. And I give shout outs to a lot of national organizations. They too are pouring time, money, energy, and resources, and trying to combat it and, and be partners and collaborators with us. Again, some are better than others, but it’s not just the campus professional that’s in that fight alone. The national organizations and local organizations are, are doing their part too, but they recognize it. We don’t teach hazing. We have humans who all of a sudden wanna make some decisions about how things should be run

Keith Edwards:
For sure. Great. Kim, what would you add? What would you add to some of the challenges?

Kim Monteaux De Freitas:
So challenges, you know, I think about if we’ve been living in a pandemic, right? So I think about the intersection of, of being in a pandemic and loneliness and mental health, and just thinking about just that word, mental health and the gigantic spectrum that that is whether that’s anxiety of finally going back to class in person or dealing with suicide ideations. And I do wanna go back to what we’ve shared about how the sorority and fraternity environment does provide so many resources and connections. So we are all hopeful that with our teachings of our sorority and fraternity leaders, that we’re getting these resources to them and, you know, them being on a college campus that they know what resources they have, but mental health with pandemic and talking about any challenge, whether that’s hazing or alcohol , that does need to be something that we continue to talk about.

Kim Monteaux De Freitas:
And not just, you know, it’s not a one solution fits all. So that’s something that’s kind on my mind. And my team’s mind, I would also say for us here at Ohio State, we continue to have challenges with unrecognized organizations. Those organizations who have been found responsible for particular violations and have been asked to not organize anymore as a recognized organization on campus. And we find ourselves that oftentimes they do continue and oftentimes it’s without their headquarter support. So I too would give a no to the headquarters that have been our partner to help us really try to get the word out that these are not recognized organizations, these are not fraternities or Greek letter organizations. But that is a challenge that continues for us and for other campuses, especially during the pandemic where we’re seeing recognized organizations, maybe having some different levels of not being able to have everything in person , but the unrecognized groups can. So, mm,

Keith Edwards:
Yeah, just a lot of, lot of the, the resources and education and development and then also the accountability not there for those organizations to kind of go rogue.

Chris Graham:
Yeah. So my colleagues really nailed it when it comes to a lot of the day to day challenges. We face with the students who are currently experiencing this in particular at the collegiate level. So I will share some of the other challenges that I, that I think a lot about and that I’m very passionate about is some of the challenges just have to be with us at the professional level. And whether that be the professionals that are currently working in this respective functional area, fraternity story life, whether that’s the professionals that might be supervised in this respective area, whether that’s the vice president of student affairs or the senior, you know, chief student affairs officer, or even the leader of the institution itself the president or chancellor of the institution. And I say that because to Michelle’s point about environment and human condition, it is unrealistic.

Chris Graham:
And quite frankly, not just naive, but I would say a bit ignorant to expect. I don’t care what size staff is to manage all of those problems and issues that the students are showing up with. Right? One of the things that I always say is I don’t work in admissions. What I mean by that, I, I don’t say that for, in terms of any disregard to my colleagues that do, but I did not admit a single student that got a bid or that that was accepted for intake in any organization. , I didn’t, it, it, some of these expectations would be realistic if I was the staff if I was the person responsible for admitting them to the institution, but whatever Chris Graham is showing up with to said institution, that was that he made it through the admissions process, meaning we felt like that student met our minimum standards and expectations to contribute and participate and be a student at our institution.

Chris Graham:
What they do when they show up is a coming upon all of us. It’s not based upon Kim, because she’s the director of fraternity and sorority life. Like if they make decision to become affiliated, , it’s much deeper and broader and bigger than that. And for some reason, we’ve gotten into this thinking, historically, it’s starting to evolve to some extent, I would argue not quick enough that we, we need a collective impact model and a collective impact philosophy. If we’re gonna make the type of difference that we need to make. And I’m not saying that to, to, to suggest that we don’t, we don’t, we should not own our challenges and our problems and solutions. I’m just saying that they don’t belong to just us. Right. I need the public health pro professionals working. I need the counseling, the mental health professionals, et cetera, et cetera.

Chris Graham:
So we’re all in this together. The expectations cannot just be at the feet of the professionals that are working and serving in this respective area. You look at things like longevity and all of us shared how long we’ve been doing this. Unfortunately, unfortunately, we’re rare. We are rare. And unfortunately, it’s not common. Unfortunately all of us are above the age of, you know, the, the average staff member that’s working in this industry, you know, so I could go on and on and on about that, that that’s a challenge. That’s a problem. Think about all of the things that we talked about as it relates to the benefits, think about the alumni engagement, think about the risk management, think about the cetera, et cetera, why or not, why aren’t fraternity, sorority life professionals compensate much better. And, and I say that just, if you look at it from a business perspective, if you had an entity on your campus that was so integral to the success of your institution, you would think about how to maintain that and sustain that longer, right?

Chris Graham:
Like, I mean, if you look at the athletic models, right, especially at places like Kim and I’s institution, there is a reason those folks are compensated the way that they are. It’s because of the benefit that they add. And the, you ask to the institution from a financial model perspective, fraternity, sorority life professionals are no different, right? I mean, most of the folks at the highest level of governance at, at our institutions on our boards are affiliated with fraternity sorority life. So I think there are some professional challenges that have nothing to do with the students, even if every last one of them showed up and did the right thing, you know, have the skills to that, you know, et cetera, et cetera, there would still be a lot of challenges. And my last point is just environment. I think a lot about that, because these students are showing up with many of these challenges, whether they’re mental health challenges, whether it’s students that got engaged or involved in, you know, substance use and abuse as high school students, but why aren’t they dying in a high school club at the rate that they’re dying in a fraternity or sorority on a college campus?

Chris Graham:
I believe a big part of that has to do with the environment. And it it’s, it takes everybody to think about how do we shape and form and evolve from an environmental perspective. Right? And the last thing I’ll say is, think about a legislative perspective. So think about athletics. I’m a huge college athletics fan name, image, and likeness is brand new. And we already have state legislators thinking about how do we evolve these laws? Like these are inequitable laws, things are happening that are not fair, that are not right. Why don’t legislators have the same perspective when it comes to hazing? Why don’t legislators have the same perspective when it comes to college, been of health support awareness, right? Et cetera, et cetera. So I think a lot of the challenges have nothing to do with our students, and that’s not to let them off the hook. That’s just to suggest that we all have some ownership in making this better.

Keith Edwards:
I love this collective impact which then begs where’s the collective responsibility that you’re pointing to. And I love that you just angled for, or head football coach money there. Chris, a nice, nice way to get that in there. your,

Chris Graham:
I would take assistant coach money. That’s right. I know. Right.

Michelle Guobadia:
I cross that.

Keith Edwards:
Yeah. Well we we’re, we’re running short on time and so I want to move us to our, our last question. This podcast is called Student Affairs NOW. So I always like to end with inviting you to think about share what you’re thinking about, what you’re troubling, what you’re pondering, maybe what you see as being on the horizon for fraternity and sorority life. So just wanna invite each of you in to kind of share what you see ahead maybe based on this conversation, maybe things that you’re just brought generally let’s Michelle let’s start with you.

Michelle Guobadia:
So I’ll say that I don’t think fraternity and sorority life is going anywhere. I think it’s always going to be a part of not only the brick and mortar campus, but the virtual campus because of the affinity, because of the opportunities, but it will have to evolve and it’s not always gonna look the same way. The fraternity sorority life does not look how it looked when I joined my sorority in the fall of 2000. So it doesn’t look the same in, in the spring of 2022. And that evolution is going to need competent professionals, stakeholders, and partners at all levels to really sustain it. I don’t think it’s going away, but it is going to continue to evolve. And I think that’s really important for all of us to realize we would like to have more people looking at fraternity life as a functional area.

Michelle Guobadia:
It is worth it. I tell people all this time, what I do is not brain surgery, but it’s still just as important. I am preparing tomorrow’s leaders. I am preparing and I take that responsibility very seriously. So I think those are the things that we need to look at the evolution and the continuation of the basic fundamental values of fraternities for our life and how that will continue to be a big part of the see in college system and process. And I think that’s, what’s on the horizon. If it’s student affairs now, right now, we’re still in the pandemic. And the pandemic has not been kind to fraternity and sorority because we’re such a high touch, high affinity. We need to be with each other. And because of that, we’re gonna have to evolve really strongly. It’s gonna require us to go back to some basics, but at the same time, it’s gonna need a us to propel even faster to get our students and our staff and our colleagues up to speed. Awesome.

Keith Edwards:
Awesome. Kim, how about you? What’s what are you with now? What’s on the horizon.

Kim Monteaux De Freitas:
Yeah, so I think two things really come up for me the first one you know, as Michelle just talked about evolving and I would say evolving and really elevating our conversations around access and removing barriers. A lot of that of that has really bubbled up in more spaces for us than pre pandemic. So again, financial transparency, how is money being spent? And I don’t see that going away and then the other part kind of, you know, weaving in both Michelle and Chris’ comments. There are a lot of institutions that are really evaluating their staffing models and really questioning is one person the right thing and, or is X number the right thing. And, and while that is great, and I am thankful that we have those conversations happening, I hope that they continue to be done. So with intention, cuz there are a lot of jobs that are posting and not to what Chris said, they aren’t salaries that I personally would encourage a mentor, a friend to really seek. So that is just something that’s on my mind. Working with teams and having mentors and just being in the conversation about the staffs and thinking about, you know, how can we be on the forefront or how can we even move closer?

Keith Edwards:
Yeah. Yeah. Great. Thank you, Chris. What’s what’s with you now or what do you see on the horizon?

Chris Graham:
Yeah, I would just say Dito to what my colleague shared and just be brief and say, I think it’s a inclusive component of this experience. If you think about the history of, of our organizations and how many of us came to be versus what we’re dealing with in society at this time, it it’s a bit of a conflict there for many of the organizations. So thinking about how do you move forward in an inclusive way? There are things from a historical perspective that we absolutely do need to hold onto. I’m glad that there was a space for me to join a fraternity with a fraternity versus a co-ed organization. Right. So I think we gotta think about what does that look like? Feel like in 2030 or 2040, et cetera. So the inclusive component and then I agree like change, change, change, change. So it will always exist. It will always be on a college campus. It will very likely look different and it feel, and it already does even the last five years alone, much the 10 years, 20 years. So change, change, change would be the last thing would say.

Michelle Guobadia:
Yeah, absolutely.

Keith Edwards:
Awesome. Well we also wanna give each of you a chance to share where people could connect with you if they want to connect with you more. Chris, where would you like to direct people who maybe want to connect with you?

Chris Graham:
I’m easy to find via email, but also Twitter is my thing. So Chris Graham just like my name ChrisGraham06. That’s my

Keith Edwards:
Twitter handle. Thanks. And Kim, where can people connect with you?

Kim Monteaux De Freitas:
I too am you know, easy to find, you can find me on LinkedIn or you can send me an email. It’s defretias.12@osu.edu . Thanks.

Keith Edwards:
Hi Michelle. How about you?

Michelle Guobadia:
I believe at and branding. So you can find me on Twitter. Facebook, Instagram, all at mgspeaksup. Same one. If you have a Peloton, that’s my leaderboard name. You can ride with me there. If you’d like to do that as well, mgspeaksup is probably the easiest way to DM me or get contact with me. And the email is mguobadia@gmail.com.

Keith Edwards:
Awesome. Well, this has been terrific. Thanks to each of you for sharing your thoughts and your perspective. I love that we ended around how do we evolve this experience and do so with intentionality and really be thoughtful about what this looks like moving forward, thanks to each of you for your leadership and your contributions today. I also wanna thank our sponsors of today’s episode LeaderShape and Vector Solutions, LeaderShape partners with colleges and universities to create transformational leadership experiences, both virtual and in person for students and professionals with a focus on creating a more, just caring and thriving world. LeaderShape offers, engaging learning experiences and courageous dialogue, integrity, equity, resilience, and new building to find out more, please visit leadershape.org or connect with them on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn. And Vector Solutions. How will your institution rise to reach today’s socially conscious generation.

Keith Edwards:
These students report commitments to safety, wellbeing and inclusion are as important as academic rigor when selecting a college it’s time to reimagine the work of student affairs as an investment, not an expense. For over 20 years Vector Solutions, which now includes the campus prevention network (formerly known as EverFi) has been the partner of choice for 2000 and more colleges and universities and national organization. With nine efficacy studies behind their courses, you can trust and have full confidence that you’re using the standard of care for student safety, wellbeing and inclusion transform the future of your institution and the community you serve learn more at vectorsolutions.com/studentaffairsnow, and a huge shout out to Nat Ambrosey. The production for the podcast does all the behind the scenes work to make us look and sound good if you’re listening today and not already receiving our weekly newsletter, please visit our website at studentaffairsnow.com scroll to the bottom of the homepage to add your email to our MailChimp list. While you’re there, check out the archives. I’m Keith Edwards. Thanks again to making to our guests for being fabulous today and to everyone who’s watching and listening, make it a great week.

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