Debbie Scheibler:
And I think it just, for me solidified the importance of consistency and continuity in the work that we do telling a clear story, making sure that our students see themselves in the curriculums that we build in the products that we’re working to make that the objectives are meeting their expectations.

Keith Edwards:
Hello, and welcome to Student Affairs. NOW, I’m your host, Keith Edwards. Today. We’re talking about lessons from new research. For those implementing a curricular approach to learning beyond the classroom. I’m joined by four scholar practitioners who have all recently completed their dissertation research related to a Curricular approach. I’m so excited to have you all here and learn from you. Student Affairs NOW is the premier podcast and online learning community for thousands of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays. Find details about this episode or browser archives at studentaffairsnow.com. This is brought to you by Stylus, visit styluspub.com and use promo code SANow for 30% off and free shipping, this episode is also sponsored by LeaderShape. Go to leadershape.org to learn how they can work with you to create a just caring and thriving world. As I mentioned, I’m your host, Keith Edwards, my pronouns are he him his. I’m a speaker consultant and coach. You can find out more about me at keithedwards.com. I’m broadcasting from Minneapolis, Minnesota at the intersections of the ancestral homelands of the Dakota and the Ojibwe peoples. Let’s get to the conversation. I’m so grateful for all of you for joining us today. Eric, let’s begin with you and a brief introduction.

Eric Pernotto:
Hello, I’m Dr. Eric Pernotto. I use the pronouns, he and him. I’m an associate director for residential learning with university housing and dining at Clemson university, which is located in South Carolina and occupies the traditional and ancestral land of the Cherokee. I started my career as a K-12 teacher. I taught middle school math and science. So when I, when I was really first introduced to the concept of the curricular approach, it connected the dots for me, both as a former teacher and now a student affairs professional. And it just bridged what I loved about classroom instruction and my passion for working with college students. I’ve had the opportunity to work with curricula at two institutions, University of Dayton, and at Clemson, and I’ve served on faculty for the, ACPA Institute on the curricular approach for several years. So of course this was a topic that was destined to be my dissertation research. And I know that I’m the new newest minted doctor in this group, and I just successfully defended my dissertation in November. So I’m still kind of getting my bearing straight and I’m just honored to be with the rest of this group.

Keith Edwards:
Welcome Dr. Pernotto. We’re so glad you’re here a shiny new doctor as you are. Debbie, you’re the next most recent tell us about you.

Debbie Scheibler:
Yeah, I was gonna say you barely my friend. I am Dr. Debbie Scheibler I’m the director of residential learning at Rowan University. I use she her pronouns. Our university is located in Southern New Jersey on the industrial homes of the Lenne Lenape. I defended my dissertation in August, so like right there with you, Eric in, in my role, I have been tasked with developing residential curriculum approach, and I’ve always had an interest in in creating those spaces, but I’ve never or worked anywhere that has one intact. And so I was always really interested to draw upon the, the foundations of a curricular approach and tying things together, connecting the dots. But really, and we’ll talk about this a little bit as we go forward. I am one that loves to kind of blow it up and, and get even bigger.

Debbie Scheibler:
And so what is really been so exciting about the research that I’ve done and the work that I have done in housing residence life is the connection of those dots and the importance of not just one department being responsible for the things that we know are important to be everyone’s responsibility. And so broader student affairs approaches are important learning partnerships really third party vendors and student affairs align and practitioners. The work that we do is so much more than one individual office. And that is something that frankly, I’m, I’m geeking out. I said this before being on this panel and in this space with folks that are bringing different facets to this work. And so I’m just so, so excited to talk a little bit more about that and to see where this research goes in the next few years.

Keith Edwards:
Yeah. Wonderful. Thank you for being here. Heather, you’re next.

Heather Kropf:
Yeah. Thanks Keith. My name’s Dr. Heather Kropf. I use she her pronouns. I work at the University of Oregon as the associate director of residence life, and the University of Oregon is located on the traditional indigenous Homeland of the people. And I graduated with my doctoral degree, June, 2020. So I was right in the middle of the beginning of the pandemic, did a virtual dissertation defense. And I’m so grateful yeah, that, that I was done. I’m so indebted to Hilary also who’s here just for her leadership and guidance and I’ve, you know, value just the, the community of, of scholars that are doing, doing this work. And so I oversee the curricular approach at my institution and I’ve been on faculty at ICA last year. So really I’m excited to kind of learn from, from everyone here for this day. And so thank you, Keith, for this opportunity.

Keith Edwards:
Yeah. Thanks for being here. All right Hilary.

Hilary L. Lichterman:
Hi everyone, I’m Dr. Hilary L. Lichterman, I use she her pronouns. I’m here at Seattle University, which is on the homelands of the people. I serve as the director of housing and residence life six months in as of just a few days from now. And I previously served at the University of South Carolina where I led curricular approach for 11 years. I’ve served on the faculty through ACPA for nine years when starting as the residential curriculum Institute. And now the Institute on the curricular approach had the pleasure to co-author with Keith and other wonderful colleagues book recently through Stylus on the curricular approach right there on your book shelf

Keith Edwards:
right there, right there.

Hilary L. Lichterman:
I’m so excited to be here in this wonderful company.

Keith Edwards:
Awesome. Well, thanks to all of you for being here. We’re gonna try and do probably the hardest thing to on a podcast. We’re gonna try and get four recently dissert folks to talk about their research briefly. So since Hilary has had the most distance, probably can’t remember everything from that big book report. Maybe you can kick us off and model the overview and share a little bit about your research and especially the us lessons for practice. So kick us off here, Hilary.

Hilary L. Lichterman:
Yeah, well, I will say I, I do need to give a shout out to Keith Keith. You may remember at Virginia tech at the Institute, I came up, you kinda sweating and panicked and said, I need a, can we please have coffee? I need to talk with you. I think I might be close to circling in on a topic I wasn’t close, but you know, we got there. So

Keith Edwards:
I remember that conversation in those chairs outside that conference room. Yes.

Hilary L. Lichterman:
I really need us to talk. So it was a case study approach at one institution, an in-depth descriptive case study really looking at the, the concept of the curricular approach through an organizational perspective. So understanding using, four frames of organizations as the guiding theory to understand what are the conditions and what happens when you make this big, huge paradigm shift away from any other approach that you’ve taken before to now this intentional curricular approach. So the, the focus of the study looked at the conditions, the structures, and the people involved in that. I would say in a nutshell, that’s probably the gist of the study. Happy to talk more about the findings as we go. But one of the takeaways that came from that is a organizational barometer tool, which is like a barometer helps us gauge the weather the tool as something practitioners can use in their work, and we can make it available for you that you can look at within your department using those four frames. How do you really understand this approach when you’re in it, when you’re developing it, assessing it? And in the book that I just mentioned, there’s a broader version that looks at that more on a division level. So, that’s another.

Keith Edwards:
It’s a great, very useful tool based on your research and, and empirical data. And it’s really generous of you to share that. We’ll make sure we get that in the show notes. So thanks for kicking us off here. Heather, what about you tell us about the research that you did and the biggest implications for practice?

Heather Kropf:
Yeah, I mean, just like Hilary, did I gotta give a shout out to Hilary? I was frantic after my first year of my doctoral program and wrote a very large paper that, you know, I got, got me into my second year and I decided that I didn’t wanna do the topic anymore. And so brainstorming with Hilary at ACUHO-I conference, I felt like she gave me permission to, to study it. And so I really, you know, appreciate Hilary’s guidance and leadership and mentorship. And so for me, it, it was a very self-serving dissertation. I mean, the purpose of my research was to understand ultimately how departments that have a thriving curricular model, how their organization is structured and what a culture like and what Dr. Paul Brown has shared is that it building an organizational culture and structure is so important, it’s as important as the curriculum model.

Heather Kropf:
And so what I had have realized in my own kind of work within this is that I just didn’t think that our organizational structure and culture was there to actually support the curriculum model. So I had asked long standing faculty from the Institute on curricular approach, who has a thriving curricular model, like who should I interview? And four of the faculty members gave me lots of institutions, and there were nine of them that were similar with all four of them. And so within that, I had five institutions. I wanted like institutions. So they were all state school. All had a first year live in requirement. It was very important for me to get institutions that were like as, as, as similar as I could. And so interviewed the person who had the most information on the curricular approach, and the person who oversaw the curricular model, as well as the hall director staff to try to understand more about the organizational hierarchy.

Heather Kropf:
It was very important for me to interview different people within the hierarchy to understand the organization itself. And so yeah, so the biggest lesson for me, there were so many similarities within the department. I actually was able to create a model from the findings. So it’s called the curricular integration model, which has eight different findings underneath two overarching themes of structure and the culture. And just as of last week, I finished, it’s a 10 page. It’s, it’s a little hefty, but it’s a assessment tool rubric Eric is laughing and smiling cuz he has seen it given some feedback. Well, it’s, it’s helped me I’m mean in my own work, as far as trying to figure out in my sphere of influence, what can I actually change and shift within our culture and how do I advocate and move things forward? And so, you know, I was very, very impressed by the people that I interviewed. I mean, all of their institutions followed the 10 essential elements and so it’s, it was just amazing to learn and also, you know, share, share this out with people. So that’s, that’s some of the highlights there.

Keith Edwards:
Yeah. Thank you. And maybe we should have started about this, but there might be people listening to this who aren’t familiar with the curricular approach. You’re just kind of assuming you are, but you can definitely look for the book on the curricular approach, the about campus article, the ACPA Institute on the curricular approach. There’s lots of different ways to kind of get this. And there we did a very early student affairs now podcast on the book the curricular approach. And so that might be a good place to begin as well for folks who are looking to learn more and we might spike some interest. But yeah, thank you Heather, for, for mentioning that and so excited about this new tool that can help guide folks. Let’s see over to Debbie, tell us about what you did in your research and some of the big takeaways for practice.

Debbie Scheibler:
Sure. so while my predecessors focused really on kind of the organizational side and kind of the the production and the support of making a residential curriculum happen I took a slightly different angle and I wanted to see what the end user the students were getting from said products. So we’ve had what residential curriculums have been around for 10, 15 years. Right. like, they’re not super new, but they’re not built in stone. But there wasn’t any research out there about what the students were saying. They felt about it. Was it great? Was it terrible? Did they know it was a thing? And so I reached out to an institution and did a phenomenological case study of an institution that had a long established residential curriculum. And I interviewed those students and doing that in, in COVID was a treat.

Debbie Scheibler:
So of course we did all our virtual work together but was able to work with an incredible diverse group of participants, all of them, rising seniors, all of them who had resided on campus for a minimum of two years. And we really took a deep dive in terms of what their experience was like living in that curricular environment. And it surprised me, it absolutely surprised me. It was not what I expected it to be. It ran the gamut from absolutely knew what the curriculum was loved. The guidebook knew all the points hit all the markers to what is that and everything in between and different groups getting different attention. And I think it just, for me solidified the importance of consistency and continuity in the work that we do telling a clear story, making sure that our students see themselves in the curriculums that we build in the products that we’re working to make that the objectives are meeting their expectations.

Debbie Scheibler:
I never thought that I would be writing a scholarly work with the word vibe in it, but here we are oh my gosh, they were talking about the vibe, but they, they just wanted a good vibe from the institution. I’m like, I am clearly way too old for this because that’s where we are. But it was, it was fascinating. And I’m so grateful to those participants who shared so much of their experience. That was one part, you know, steeped in the institution that, that I was studying and the other part so wrapped up in COVID it could not be separated out . And that truly has changed the game of the work that we do and has shifted the perspective and expectations of our students and their families. And I think that the, that needs to really be our lens moving forward in terms of how are we in higher education, not just residents life, but education, student affairs across the board meeting, those needs and those expectations.

Debbie Scheibler:
And, and again, I, I say end user, but I, I, think that, that word just seems to resonate in terms of, are they getting what they expected to get? have we built a curriculum and a structure that meets them at those levels. And it’s just, it’s fascinating to me. I forgot to mention, but the theoretical framework that I utilized was Dr. Baxter’s self authorship and learning partnership. so we can have a com conversation listeners, if you wanna talk about using two theories in one for a dissertation that was smart. So it, it was really fascinating to again, see how the total institution and the different experiences of the students and where they’re involved and the resources that they identify were salient to them really came into play to bolster their reside curriculum experience, or to frankly put it in opposition. It was, it was really a fascinating experience. Awesome. Thank you, Eric. How about you?

Eric Pernotto:
I will try to keep this concise, but first we’ll start by saying like I had the privilege of getting to read a lot of the other dissertations, from the folks on this podcast. And so many of you are cited multiple times throughout my, my own dissertation and actually got to meet Debbie while we were both in our dissertating phase. And it was amazing to find that we were on two sides of the same coin . Debbie was looking at the student experience that end user experience and I was focusing more on the educator experience and what that looked like . And so we actually both used the same two theoretical frameworks so as we learned all of this, it was like all opening up. And so we’re incredibly excited about that. But for me, I was just continuously drawn to this idea in the literature that student affairs practitioners should view themselves as educators.

Eric Pernotto:
Yes. And I had my own experience as a teacher building knowledge and efficacy around teaching, and that was in the classroom environment, but I was really curious as to what the experiences of student affairs educators were and how they were building that efficacy. And my initial thought was, how can you have an effective curriculum if the teachers are not on board, if they’re not bought in or equipped to deliver it? And so that was really the, the thought that I had that, that stimulated my research study. I conducted a case study of one housing and residence life department that was implementing a curriculum model that was pretty established. And again, I used the self authorship theory from Baxter and learning partnerships model Baxter’s research, followed students, not only in their undergraduate years, but into adulthood . And since my participants were primarily entry level professionals, they were living those experiences and, and trying to navigate their own purpose of, am I doing what I should be doing?

Eric Pernotto:
How am I being supported in fulfilling my purpose? And so the focus was really figuring out how they saw themselves as educators and then how they found learning partners to help support them to implement curriculum for their students. And I really found that, that some of the takeaways were that they did communicate their role as an educator through the language, very similar to faculty and classroom instruction in terms of how they set up learning. They scaffolded learning for students. They had very meaningful conversations for students that were not just about here are the tasks that you need to do, but just this deeper purpose of who do you want to be in life and how can you grow? And so that was really neat to see. And another big lesson that I took away was that the department was set up to support these participants to really grow and so similar to what Hilary and Heather found in terms of organizational change and learning organizations these department, the department that I’ve studied really focused on giving some very high level projects and, and high stakes projects within the department or across the division or across the university to participants early on, you know, after they had gotten comfortable in their job tasks.

Eric Pernotto:
Saying here, I’ve got this thing, this aligns with your passions, this aligns with your skills. This is gonna push you outta your comfort zone, but I believe in you, and I think that you can do it. And a big example of this was a participant who was in their second year, who was asked to take on a large project to support undocumented students across campus. And the director said what do you wanna take off your plate? And the participant said, just jokingly conduct. And the director said you got it. And that was just such a powerful demonstration of leadership to show that, you know, essentialism matters and that we can really rethink how we do things and why we do things. And what’s really important and conduct wasn’t neglected, but there was this shift. And I think that my participants really by and large saw these opportunities to make a difference and to really be educators to students, and to really impact the development design and implementation of their curriculum. I

Debbie Scheibler:
I think that empowerment piece that you talk about Eric is so important. And I think that folks don’t think that that lives in a curriculum folks think like, you’re gonna give me a lesson plan and you’re gonna write me a prescription as to what I’m gonna do, and I’m gonna just be a robot and I’m gonna march on. And it, it really couldn’t be further from the truth. Right? It’s so empowering. It’s an empowering experience to be able to say, here’s your clear objective now go and make it happen. I love how you shared that example, because I think like that’s what folks don’t necessarily understand about this approach and why it’s so strong and it’s so rooted in best practices and frankly, while it, it just makes this job more fun, right? It, it, it validates and meaning that knowledge in that experience. Yeah.

Keith Edwards:
Well, and I think it, that’s your right pointing out that that’s one of the fundamental mis-understandings about our curricular approach and it increases the sense of purpose in meaning I think both for the educators, whether we’re talking about hall directors and new professionals, as well as for the students and the conversations they’re having with staff, but also with each other and RAs, Eric, you mentioned one of my favorite words, essentialism which comes from book called essentialism by Greg McEwen, which was introduced to me at that same Virginia tech conference by Frank Schock, who talked about it in, in his keynote that Hilary had mentioned earlier. So we’ll make sure we get a link to that in the show notes. And then you’re all reminding me of two things. One I remember one of the first conversations I had in my doctoral program at the University of Maryland with Karen Inkas was, shall they do this, this or this?

Keith Edwards:
And she said, well, scholarship is just generative, right? You’re building on other people’s work. Other people are gonna build on your work and you all are just kind of modeling this chain of like, well I learned from here and then that led me here and then that led to this person. And it’s just wonderful to see that generative scholarship people building and their thinking and their learning and then that leading to things that other people can build on. And the other thing I’m noticing is that all of you were really focused on housing and residence life residential curriculum . But as I’m listening to this thinking about the many folks that I work with on divisional curriculum, I think the lessons are broadly applicable, even though the, the case study might have been in a particular department, but we’re seeing more and more divisions wanting to do a curricular approach. Why have this unit have clarity and purpose? What if we all had the same clarity and purpose and worked in those in many different ways. So thanks to all of you did a great jobs, concisely sharing your dissertation research. That’s the hard part. Now tell us how has it changed, how you lead? What have, how are you leading? You’re all practitioners doing this work, leading curricular approaches. How has it changed how you go about doing this, Debbie let’s let’s go right back to you. What has influenced your practice?

Debbie Scheibler:
Yeah. well, because, because my angle was that of the students, right? We all serve students, but like directly hearing their reflections. And because it caught me off guard, right. There were some really negative reflections of my participants. That really just felt the dots were not connected and that they felt left behind after that second year. Right. We pour into these first years, we maybe pour into the sophomores and then juniors and seniors figure it out. There was just a, a lot of discontent really among my participants that, that spoke to me, right. That landed in my gut because the whole reason I got into this, we got into this work is to serve students and to educate them and, and to help them be their best self. Right. All, all the buzz words, but it’s real. and so for me, it, it constantly comes back in the back of my mind kind of to intent versus impact.

Debbie Scheibler:
I might have the best of intentions in building this thing, but if it doesn’t align with where my students are, if it doesn’t align with where they’re trying to go, if it doesn’t fit that thing, that they came to my school to get it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter how cute I like it, or how great the logo looks or the color scheme is fantastic. None of that matters, right. If it is not serving the student and that has helped me to, to reshape and kind of reframe myself, my team and, and Keith and Hilary, and we’ve all talked about this, this, this fantastic book, which I, everyone listening, you need to get the curricular approach to student affairs. It is, oh, you need us, you need it, you need it. That is where we need to be having conversations. Right.

Debbie Scheibler:
And it is so much broader than to your point, Keith of a res life lens . And I was so privileged during my research that I was, I, I actually connected with the doctor Marsha oh my gosh, my world was changed. And we talked about learning partnership and we talked about self-authorship and I, I even said, I disagree with your view on self-authorship because all of my folks have, self-authored tell, telling your theor is that you, you think that, that something’s a little bit different. We had that conversation about the challenges of COVID and the challenge of the world and friends the last two years have been upside down. Right? and I think our students have fundamentally changed in terms of their grit and their resiliency and what they have endured. And I think that needs to be taken into account in the work that we do too because they’ve had to grow up really quickly in some different ways that we didn’t anticipate they’ve had to be challenged in ways that we didn’t anticipate. And so all in all, just the totality of their lived experiences, the totality of our campuses, that is what is really guiding me now.

Keith Edwards:
Awesome. Eric, what has influenced your practice?

Eric Pernotto:
Yeah, this is a bit of a tough question because you know, I haven’t had the time to, to figure out how I’m going to implement things yet, but I know that there are a couple of takeaways that I’m anticipating rolling out into my work. First of all, and this draws a little bit from Heather’s research, you know, learning organizations really matter. And I found that the the department that I looked at really had laid the groundwork for success that allowed the participants to thrive. You know, they had made a lot of connections with partners across campus. They had sold the idea of a curriculum and, and had really done a lot of things so that participants could easily navigate partnerships across campus and how they can relate to students. And so that was great. And I think that, you know, having an department that is willing to, and actively seeking individuals who buy into the idea of being an educator who buy into the idea of being a scholar practitioner, who buy into the idea of using data driven assessment to, to make decisions all of those things were matter really mattered.

Eric Pernotto:
But on top of that being willing as an organization to say, we’re gonna let these people make waves, we’re gonna let these people ask tough questions and challenge us on things and push to move the curriculum forward. And so for me, as, as a practitioner, I’m figuring out how do I, you know, let go of the reins a little bit to allow my staff who sometimes I think are, are new and they’re not ready to be able to, to go for it. And ask tough questions and be willing to say, okay, take this and run with it. Think about it, process it, get some more data and come back to me and let’s see what we can do.

Keith Edwards:
Thanks Eric. So let’s go to Hilary. What are some of the implications for your practice now? You’re, you’re the director, director, director of housing and residence life. So now you’re at the 30,000 foot level. What is influencing your practice these days?

Hilary L. Lichterman:
Yeah, I think about this work in this approach every day and I think, you know, it, it has been profound this experience. I know we all understand that our research alone yet alone, our work every day as practitioners. But for me, I think I had, I deeply believed in this approach before I knew the language or really more of, you know, sequencing yes. Having a programming model with learning outcomes. Right. so I certainly learned so much over time, but for me, I think every day about the leadership now involved in this and providing an environment and a space where we can now engage in this work and it’s not negotiable. It’s not a, we’ll try it. And if something goes wrong, we’ll cut it and try something next week. Yes. We’ll be open to failure because that’s how you learn and grow.

Hilary L. Lichterman:
But I think I am now able to provide steadiness and a foundation that I think is so critical to this approach. It really is about the environment and the conditions that can continue to do the good work that we’ve all talked about. I’m so excited. I now had the opportunity recently joining here, there were some position opportunities. And so now the wonderful Michael Plazio is sitting on the other side of this wall as our new associate director of community engagement and learning initiatives. And so I think being able to now strategically align resources in a different way is really exciting.

Keith Edwards:
I guess I’m hearing Hilary you’re, you’re able now to create a more solid and stable container for this, is that right?

Hilary L. Lichterman:
Bingo. Right. And I think about my last point is when I was trying to figure out the title of not only my dissertation, but you know, the wording within it. I bantered a lot. And Keith, you were in on this saga about, is it a model? Is it an approach? I don’t know. And I landed with approach because I think it truly does better emphasize that leadership, that vision, the support, and it’s not just a confined this or that.

Keith Edwards:
Awesome.

Debbie Scheibler:
And that bounces to me what Eric was talking about about it takes brave leadership, right? To, and, and to want to do this and to want to do it. Well, I heard that in, in both of your statements and I think that is so, so true for the work that we’re doing and for it to be successful

Keith Edwards:
And the people who are implementing it need that brave leadership. They need to know they’re gonna be backed up that this is not something we’re trying out for the next three weeks. They really want to be able to throw themselves into it. Heather, you spoke at the very beginning about wanting to do this, to inform your practice and improve your leading. What has, what has shifted and changed for you?

Heather Kropf:
Yeah. I mean, I, you know, I feel like I’ve been, I’ve become a better educator. I was so inspired by people that I was interviewing. I, by, by everyone I would get off the interviews and I would just sit in awe. I would write in my notebook about just some highlights that I was learning from people. And what most inspired me was talking to hall director, staff. I mean, all of them viewed themselves as educators. They were trying new things. They were open to collaborating and connecting. And I, you know, and part of this model that has come up with is that, that I came up with was this ability to hire learners and educators, that it’s a mindset shift that you can’t really train it. Like you have to hire people. And so for me, who oversees the hiring and training and development, thinking about how are we educating people when we’re interviewing them.

Heather Kropf:
So I’ve, I’ve been really able to take that and change the way I engage our recruitment process, which is something that I’m really grateful for. You know, and also being open to collaboration and connections. I mean, I’m always open to connecting and collaborating with people. And after I had shared about my research at the Institute on curricular approach, Danielle Barefoot from Iowa reached out and said, Hey, do you mind if I like read your chapter four, that is 80 pages don’t ever do that. Do you mind if I read it and make a rubric for my department? And I say, why don’t we partner together? And so just being really open to partnerships with people to just help improve the, you know, the, the practice for other people is something that I’ve been really open to. And so I think those are some of the things that, that, how, how I’ve engaged in, in this, which I really wanna share the great work that people have done and just like capitalizing on what Hilary had said. It’s really awesome. Seeing Hilary grow from being an associate director and learning everything and now being a director and thinking about that sphere of influence that a positional leader has on the department and his approach is so important. And, I mean, she created this new position. I mean, this is, this is evident of what you know, of what my research was about, which I, I really appreciated hearing you reflect Hilary you’re, you’re amazing.

Hilary L. Lichterman:
Well, my good friend. I feel the same about you. And I think it’s so in special for us to think about the community of educators around this work. So even those not on this call right here thinking about all the names we’re mentioning and how proud and excited we are to do that, because that’s their contribution, that’s their work? Why would we not name and share them? And just all collectively over the years, right? How it snowballed and become as Keith and so generative I think that says a lot about not a only the, the past the present, but also the future. Yes. And this continued work.

Keith Edwards:
What wonderful segue to where we wanna go next. Right. So we want, you all have written maybe the first four dissertations. I’m sure that’s not entirely true, but five there’s the, who’s the fifth one, Debbie

Debbie Scheibler:
Sanders

Heather Kropf:
Sanders, Laura Sanders,

Keith Edwards:
Laura Sanders, right, right from Alabama. Right. yes. So I, I would love to hear from you about from all of you for folks who are following you, who are maybe he in that place, Hilary, as at Virginia tech and thinking, should I do this on curricular approach? If so, what part, how would I do this? What are people curious about? What would be helpful? What kind of guidance would you offer to someone who might be thinking through this? So we can kind of best help and see the next generation of folks who would be on a panel like this. Heather, what did advice would you offer folks who are thinking about doing research, whether it’s dissertations or other research down the road, what would you offer? Yeah,

Heather Kropf:
I would say do it, I mean, reach out to us. I think we’re all willing and open to talking with you to brainstorm. I’ve talked to a few other people who are in current doctoral programs that are thinking about like, what could I do and brainstorming, I think with people who have done it was helpful for me. And so I also think thinking through a problem that you wanna solve, or what’s a barrier that you’re currently facing, as you engage in this approach, as you engage in your, in doing this work and trying to brainstorm different, different problems that you might see that you wanna find solutions for is another way that I, I think you could approach, you know, a topic that you might be interested in. And I’ve had a really, I mean, I loved my dissertation share, loved my program, but it was a really hard sell to figure out, could this topic be something that I could, could do something on. And so, you know, happy to talk through with people around that, but really grateful for the mentors that mentored me within the process.

Keith Edwards:
But do it, I’m hearing, let curiosity be your guide, right? What are you curious about? What are the problems? What, and let that be your guide that will, that will get you out of bed at six o’clock in the morning to work on that lit review. Yeah. Hilary, what advice would you offer?

Hilary L. Lichterman:
Yeah, I have a few quick ones. I think being okay. Navigating these new waters for those of here, it’s a, this is a fairly young and early stage of line of scholarship, but it took those of us to jump on the train and go forward. So I think for whether it’s this topic or any topic, I think a student, a scholar, a practitioner should think about, what, where do you find that that relevance in our, where are the gaps in the literature and how can you just start small? I remember being told and reminded very kindly by my mentors and my committee members. You’re not solving the world. You’re, you’re demonstrating, you can conduct original research, think critically, write it back it up and go forward. So I would say there’s that I think also staying open to that critique is learning.

Hilary L. Lichterman:
And so I remember what doctor Jenny Bloom, one of my co-chairs, I had a full meltdown when we had a little banter about the 10 essential elements. And at the end she said, no, I’m on board. I think this is great. I was trying to get you to think more critically and to see different perspectives and not just, yeah, this is great. And so I think being open to the critique and recognizing that is how we learn and grow and understand that our conviction is wonderful, but how it also contributes to what’s going forward. And then I think finally just enjoying it and having fun with it, because again, yes, getting up at that cold six o’clock in the morning that’s tricky. And so being able to see a bigger purpose and a vision with, again, not trying to change the world or the profession, but having some joy and some pride that you’re learning and growing yourself by contributing to scholarship.

Keith Edwards:
Yeah. Awesome. Eric, what what guidance would you offer? to a doctoral student or researcher.

Eric Pernotto:
Yeah. I can’t gush enough about the community of practice of people doing this work. And just the openness and willingness to talk about this, the willingness to be vulnerable, to talk about not only the successes, but the failures that we all experience along the way and being open about that. And so I’m so thankful to the faculty at the, a CPA ICA that have helped me along the process. The other people here that have written everyone that I’ve learned through this. And so the advice I would give is don’t be intimidated by the fact that there’s a lack of literature that exists. There are a lot of, of parallels to other things that the curricular approach ties into that you can look at. And again, I would echo finding an advisor that’s willing to chart into this as Hilary said, these, these uncharted waters and being excited about that, I think really helped me along the way when, when there were some struggles. And, and it was super cool to have that support.

Keith Edwards:
Yeah. That’s awesome. Go ahead, Debbie, what would your tips be suggestions?

Debbie Scheibler:
I mean, so many have already been said. So what I will just say is, do not be afraid to ask for input from those of us here on the screen, those of us who are doing the work in your respective areas acknowledge the fact that they are experts in their field. You are an expert in what you are trying to do to have confidence, right? and, and engage in those critical conversations. I think Hilary, you captured it really well, but like, I I’m recalling a conversation, Eric and I had leading right up to your dissertation and like, oh, let’s write on this. Let’s write on this, let this like, get really excited because there is so much to explore about this topic because it is so, so new. And I know I’ll speak for myself, but I’m probably speaking on behalf of my colleagues as well. Listeners, if you’re looking for folks to sit on your committee, if you’re looking for folks to be examiners, you know, I volunteer as tribute, we would love to contribute to your work as well.

Keith Edwards:
Well, because you’re gonna learn so much in doing that. Right. so it is generous, but it’s also selfish. You’re gonna learn so much. Oh yeah. In those conversations. I know. I, I always do as well. Well, well thank you all we’re we’re running out of time. And this podcast is Student Affairs NOW. So we always like to end with asking our guests, what are you thinking troubling or pondering now, maybe it’s something that you’re is on your mind in the profession, in the world, or maybe it’s just what you’re really resonating with here, as we conclude this conversation. And if you also wanna include where folks can connect with you that would be great as well. Also, Hilary, what are you troubling now?

Hilary L. Lichterman:
Oh goodness. Well, I’ll try to keep this brief, but I think for me, as I think about this conversation in the current state of higher education student affairs, our world, I think we have an obligation and a wonderful opportunity to look at this work. For example, to understand resource education, resource management, everyone’s budget is a mess, right? Our, we are in very uncertain waters at this time, but rather than cannibalizing programs, one over the other or lamenting every day that we wish we had more dollars, I think every day about how can this framework and this lens help us make better decision, more strategic decisions and decisions that are only gonna benefit our students.

Keith Edwards:
That’s a great one. How do we, how do we use our curricular approach to guide the difficult choices that we need to make? That’s awesome. Heather, what would you what’s with you now?

Heather Kropf:
Yeah. You know, I don’t know about any anyone else here, but I think the students that are here on campus are very different than a few years ago. I think the Student Affairs NOW episode fresh. What was that froshmores. Yes. Very, very insightful. but just thinking about ways to engage better and also thinking about ways to retain staff, to help them feel valued, supported, cared for, because there’s, there’s a sense of burnout. So that’s a lot about what I’ve been thinking about, engaging in and trying to figure out different ways. Happy to connect via LinkedIn. You can look me up. There’s a Heather Kropf. That’s a singer. I am not that I am a student affairs educator. And also on Twitter it’s @positivelyHK.

Keith Edwards:
Awesome. Thank you. Debbie what’s with you right now.

Debbie Scheibler:
Yeah. I mean, Heather hit it really on the head for what has been keeping me up at night as well. So, so all of that plus, you know, the, the way that we move forward in kind of a unified student affairs approach is, is really, I think what for my community will also help support my staff in terms of that, that feeling of burnout. We gotta break down these silos, my friends we need to, to, we just need to do a better job of that. it’s gonna serve our students. It’s gonna serve our populations better. You can find me on Twitter @Debbie Scheibler and you can also look me up on LinkedIn. There’s not a lot of Scheibler’s out there, so I’m pretty easy to find, look for the blue glasses.

Keith Edwards:
That’s a great trademark, Eric what’s with you now.

Eric Pernotto:
I think we are all thinking about the same things. It sounds like and so as Debbie shared earlier, doing a dissertation study in the middle of a pandemic is certainly interesting, would not recommend zero is a challenging time for my participants. And what I’ve really been grappling with is this idea that we want to get learners to the learner learning edge, where they’re out their comfort zone in order to grow. But what I found with some of my was that they were experiencing such extreme adaptive challenges all at once one after another. Yeah. That in many ways there were times when they shut down, there were times when they looked inward toward each other and had disconnects between their supervisors who were not experiencing what it was like to be a live-on professional. And so just trying to figure out how we can revisit how we do everything, how leaders can continuously be aware of the increased workload stress and safety concerns that staff are currently experiencing and figuring out how we navigate that. And I would also love to keep the conversation going the best way to connect with me is through my email. But I also try to be active on the Facebook group, residential curriculum and curricular approaches which is a great group of learners.

Keith Edwards:
Yeah. Thanks for mentioning. That’s a great group that Paul Brown at room pack runs and manages so people can connect there as well. Well, and what you all are thinking, you know, the challenges that face new professionals, the challenges that face our students that are very different from even two years ago or even six months ago, I think are really salient. And one of my big takeaways from the most recent ICA was everybody talking about how this isn’t working, this isn’t sustainable, this isn’t and equitable. This isn’t getting us where we need to be. And I’m really excited for the research that you all are doing is just gonna help us create the new thing, create something better, create something that does work that is sustainable. That is more equitable that really does foster learning and alignment with that. And so I’m excited for scholars and leaders like you, who are gonna lead us forward with that.

Keith Edwards:
So this has been terrific. Thank you all so much. Congratulations to each of you on your research and your doctorates doctors and your contributions to the profession. Thanks to our sponsors of today’s episode LeaderShape & Stylus. LeaderShape partners with colleges and universities to create transformational leadership experiences, both virtual and in person for students and professionals with a focus on creating a more, just caring and thriving world. LeaderShape offers, engaging learning experiences and courageous dialogue, integrity, equity, resilience, and community building to find out more, please visit leadershape.org/virtual programs or connect with them on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn, and Stylus is proud to be a sponsor, serve the student affairs. Now podcast browse their student affairs, diversity and professional development titles at stylus.com. Use their promo code SANow for 30% off all books plus free shipping, including that curricular approach for student affairs.

Keith Edwards:
You can also find stylist on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, LinkedIn, and Twitter at @styluspub huge shout out to Nat Ambrosey. The production assistant for our podcast use all the behind the scenes work to make us all look and sound good. If you’re listening today, not already receiving our weekly newsletter, please visit our website at studentaffairsnow.com scroll the bottom of the homepage and add your email to our MailChimp list while you’re there. Check out the archives. I’m Keith Edwards. Thanks again to their fabulous guest today to everyone who is watching and listening, make it a great week. Thank you all.