Kristi Clemens
I think just a reminder that it’s not a band aid or some sort of magical balm for all your problems on your campus and off. We’ve seen this cyclic Lee through the ages, I think it was Intergroup Dialogues, and then it’s restorative justice. And that, you know, it can be brave space, like hold is, you know, we’re just gonna apply brave spaces, and we’ll be fine. It’s not like take two Advil and call me in the morning, right. And so the to get, you know, building on what Brian was saying that you can’t divorce this framework, and our intentionality from talking about systems of power and privilege and oppression. But I think that some people see it as an easy and easy way to just like, well, this is a brave space. So you know, everything’s fine, nobody worry about it. And you’re in that way, you’re doing the same thing that we encountered 20 years ago, with people saying, this is a safe space, safe space, so everyone needs to be okay with it.

Keith Edwards
Hello, and welcome to Student Affairs NOW, I’m your host Keith Edwards. Today I’m joined by Kristi Clemens and Dr. Brian Arao who developed the brave space concept years ago. I’m a big fan. I use it in just about all of my facilitation, whether that is around dei curricular approaches, critical masculinity or even strategic planning and other leadership work with nonprofits. It’s one of the slides it’s always in the deck. I’m excited to learn more about this, where it came from, and how we can create brave space and some of the nuances with it. So thank you both for being here to talk about this with us today. Students Affairs NOW is the premier podcast an online learning community for 1000s of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We release new episodes every week. On Wednesdays find details about this episode, or browser archives. It’s studentaffairsnow.com. Today’s episode is sponsored by Huron, a global professional services firm that collaborates with clients to put possible into practice and also by Leadershape, go to leadershape.org to learn how they can work with you to create adjust caring, and thriving world. As I mentioned, I’m your host, Keith Edwards, my pronouns are he him his. I’m a speaker, author and coach, and I help higher ed leaders and organizations make the complex uncomplicated for leadership learning inequity. can find out more about me and keithedwards.com. I’m recording today from my home in Minneapolis, Minnesota, at the intersections of the ancestral homelands and current homelands of the Dakota in the Ojibwe peoples. So Kristi and Brian, I’m so glad to have you both here to talk more about this. I’ll say a little bit more about my experience with Brave space here in a moment. But let’s learn a little bit more about you, Kristi, tell folks who don’t know you a little bit more about you. Great.

Kristi Clemens
Thanks, Keith. Really glad to be here. My name is Kristi Clemens, I use she her hers pronouns. I currently serve as the assistant vice president and title nine coordinator at Dartmouth College where I’ve been for almost 15 years in Hanover, New Hampshire. I’m also now the co director of the dialogue project here at Dartmouth and initiative that just launched last month that provides intentional training to our community in essential collaborative dialogue skills. So a great little transition from art brief space work and connecting to the other work that I do here on campus.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, I always know that when people have three titles, that means they do good work, and they keep getting added responsibilities thrown on top of things.

Kristi Clemens
So I’m just not going to have a business card anymore. It’s just a running posted. Yes, yes.

Keith Edwards
Well, LinkedIn takes care of that. That’s great. So glad to have you here to talk more about this and how you’re putting it into practice there, Dartmouth. Brian, tell us a little bit more about you.

Brian Arao
Greetings, friends, my name is Brian Arou. I use he him his pronouns. I am the president and co founder of break space leadership, co founded with my dear friend Kristi here. And we offer executive coaching, consulting and professional development that is focused on leadership for diversity, equity, inclusion, social justice, and belonging. And I started that work after 23 years of working in institution based higher ed roles. And I’m very pleased to continue working with higher education primarily through brainspace leadership, but also getting to work with leaders across multiple industries, which has been really terrific and exciting. And I do that work from Sacramento, California, which is the current and ancestral homeland of the nation.

Keith Edwards
awesome. We were just sharing and we’ve known each other for 20 years, and Brian and Kristi have known each other for longer than that. I know that Brian is a comic book fan, right?

Brian Arao
That if you can’t tell those of you on video, you can see some artwork behind me.

Keith Edwards
So one of the things I love about comic books is the origin story. So let’s go into the origin story around brave space. So I’ll tell you my origin story. I went to an AICPA session in some year at some conference, didn’t know either one of you, but just thought, Oh, this looks interesting. And I walked out of that session. I don’t really remember the session. But I remember walking out and there were a group of colleagues who I knew who had been to other sessions. I remember saying to them, that’s the best ACPA session I’ve ever been to. And they were like room tell us more. I was just like, I was so great. I changed my thinking. So completely flipped things. And so that was my origin story. But before he got to that session, and all the other things that came after you had some experiences, so Brian, tell us a little bit about what happened before that. We’re going back to the prequel to the prequel.

Brian Arao
Brian, right. Yeah, yeah. Well, so So Krisiti, yeah, we have known each other for a minute. We met each other for the first time as master’s students at the University of Vermont. On one year apart, but hung out quite a bit, were very, very close and shared interest in both student affairs work as well as social justice work. And so, you know, became fast friends, we collaborated at UVM. And then I trailed Kristi, to NYU, as well. And so we ended up working there in what was then the Department of residential education. And just continued working together, we would often volunteer and step up to, to help lead and coordinate and facilitate around departmental learning initiatives or focused on social justice. And, and in particular, you know, we were the ones who were in charge of designing for one year, the the RA training module that was focused on these issues. So we’re really excited about it. And you know, as per our training as good social justice educators, we did that with the intention at the outset of helping to cultivate safe spaces. And so that’s really what the emphasis was before we then asked folks to engage in some pretty challenging social justice learning. And the feedback we started getting back after after that session from folks was mixed, right, there are some folks who really enjoyed it. But there was a lot of students who also shared significant concerns about the activity and their experience in it. And all of that really ended up coming back to this idea of safety. We heard from many different students, that they did not feel safe, engaging in this activity. And that was true for students, regardless of identity. We had students who were primarily operating from salient dominant group identities, as well as students with marginalized and minoritized identity is who while their their experiences were different, that the reasons why I felt unsafe were quite different based on those identities and the salience thereof, the shared message around that was, this didn’t feel safe. And we sat and we said that it would, right. That’s that’s how we set things up at the outset of that experience. So, you know, based on that, I mean, Kristi and I, you know, I think I think we probably hung out and Kristi’s apartment and wrapped up in a bottle of red wine and first started beating ourselves up like we’re terrible at this, how in the world did we manage this to do such a bad job, even though, you know, there were positive outcomes from the training as well. But but as we started thinking more about it, we really kind of came to look more critically at this word safety, because when we were asking people to tell us, you know, what is it that felt unsafe? What we heard back was not actually that they were in danger, but that they were, they were uncomfortable that they were experiencing, you know, having to think about the previous and current experiences of marginality and oppression, were painful. Having to look at one’s ignorance or privilege was scary and painful. And so all those things felt uncomfortable, right? They they required risk taking, and none of those things felt like safety to the students. Learning. They sound like learning. Absolutely right. But But, but again, it didn’t sound like city. And so you know, we really had sort of asking ourselves, like, maybe maybe part of the issue is just that this language, it’s evoking something for the students that’s not consistent with what we know, will happen when students engage across difference, to talk about these issues of diversity, equity, inclusion and social justice. And that’s how we really started imagining what what maybe we needed to come up with some different language here. And that’s, that’s really where Brave Space started as a concept.

Kristi Clemens
I think part of what we looked at when we were, you know, Monday morning quarterbacking, that particular experience was was it the activity? Was it the framework? Was it the facilitation? Was it the train the trainer for the facilitator? And so as we thought about, you know, not only developing the framework and having this evolution of ground rules, which we talked about, as the framework, and in the chapter, thinking about how we’re preparing facilitators who don’t do this kind of work every day. You know, it’s thinking about a group of student affairs professionals who’s facilitating throughout an art training or some other small group. How do we give them a tangible tool that helps them to facilitate in a way that’s different from just facilitating some other kind of, you know, that we know that these DEI conversations and social justice facilitations require a different approach and a different amount of care. And so through our work with ACPAs, commission for social justice educators now education I learned, of which the three of us are all former chairs of that commission. We were really focused on how do we provide two tools to our communities. In the Student Affairs community to say, we know this is hard. And we have high expectations for how you’ll do this. And let’s give you a way forward, let’s let’s train the trainer truly. And so Brian and I co wrote a chapter in the book, The Art of Effective Facilitation that came out in 2013 following, but it’s somewhere on the shelf there. And I was looking at it over there to make sure I got the title, right. The I could just move. But that for us, you know, as a project of the commission, lots of great wisdom in that in that book monograph I think we called it came a couple years after the initial presentation that you saw Keith. And so I think, you know, we’ve been talking about this now for going on 20 years. I’m, honestly so surprised, like, Brian, and you Keith, you guys are scholars. I’m just a lowly old practitioner, I do not have a doctorate. I’m just over here doing my own thing, right?

Keith Edwards
A thing that your intro betrays that, but I appreciate your humility.

Kristi Clemens
But something that Brian and I came up with literally in my apartment in lower Manhattan 20 years ago, still has such resonance in the work that we’re doing and to watch it find its way through the different parts of our lives and careers. says to me that we sort of hit on something that was unexpected. I don’t think it’s I don’t think it’s brain surgery. Right. I think it’s it’s something that we really looked at the experience of the participants, the experiences of the facilitator, and said, as we do with most things, and student affairs, how can we help and came to a place of of putting this forward into the world? And we’re still talking about it. It’s amazing.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, I often talk about the curricular approach is both revolutionary and obvious when I first heard about it, like this is completely turned my world upside down. And once you see it, it’s like, well, well, duh. And I feel that way about brave space. I mean, I sat in that session, and I had been creating safe space and creating safe space and creating safe space. And then I sat there, and I was like, Oh, that doesn’t work. That’s actually antithetical to learning and growth and change and transformation. And it gives people a way out, right, you said it would be safe, I feel uncomfortable, I’m out. You, you didn’t keep your promise, which I think people can use an escape as an escape hatch from lots of different perspectives and identities and their trauma or their privilege, or, you know, lots of different things. And just this notion that creating safe spaces antithetical to learning is just like, so obvious, but also quite revolutionary. And I love that it has the shared when I’m working even beyond higher ed with with nonprofits, and I talk about this, they’re like, whoo, interesting. And I say, you know, for some of you being brave might be sharing a hard truth with the group. For some of you might being brave might be asking a question. For some of you being brave might be keeping your hand down and not saying anything, and giving other people a chance that might be really courageous of you, and how are you going to be brave? And how are you going to listen to others in ways that helps them be brave, right, whatever that means. And it just really opens up a lot of possibility. It makes us all responsible, not just the facilitator, which I think is so critical to actual facilitation. Let’s talk a little bit more about how you all put this into practice. You mentioned ground rules, you mentioned facilitating some of this. Kristi, why don’t you take us from here?

Kristi Clemens
Yeah, so one of the things that’s been really interesting to me over the 20 years that this has been out in the world is seeing the different ways that it shows up that it’s not just in your traditional student affairs, or social justice facilitation, Brian and I regularly get emails from areas that we never expect to folks, you know, if there was a student in a counseling program that wanted to use it in a group counseling group therapy session, I was contacted by a city in Vermont that wanted to use it as a way to train their municipal employees. And so I’ve been doing some consulting with them there. You know, it’s, I use it in my work as a title nine coordinator, to be honest with you. I mean, we you know, when we’re talking about discomfort, versus safety, that is a conversation that I have regularly and recognizing for people, that sometimes we’re going to be in uncomfortable spaces. And that’s part of the process, and figuring out how to navigate that I think is critical. And so, you know, for me in the various roles that I’ve had in higher education and outside of higher education, it has been a great jumping off point. It’s not perfect for every scenario, right? And it’s not always going to make the most sense, but it helps people I think, to understand the conversations that we have with each other are not always going to be perfect. It doesn’t mean we should be screaming at each other. It doesn’t mean we should be shutting down but how we choose to engage If we think about that ahead of time, and we think about it carefully and tailor it to the situation that we’re in, can lead to a much more fruitful conversation.

Brian Arao
Yeah, it is really surprising Kristi, that how just how many different people have reached out to us and use the framework and spaces that are that go well beyond social justice education? You know, and in addition to some of the great examples that Kristi has shared, you know, I’ll put out there that have had some really interesting conversations with our colleagues who work in identity based resource centers within higher education, who are often navigating that interesting conversation about when is it helpful for us to utilize a framework like brave space? When does that really align with the kind of work that we’re wanting to do with students? And then also, when do we need something else? Right, it gives us a great opportunity to let folks know like just because we came up with the idea of brave space doesn’t mean that we don’t think safe spaces have value. And point of fact, there are a number of times where we really would want to encourage that or where we would use that in our own practice as well. You know, and it’s really about thinking critically about how and when to utilize the framework. So those conversations with with folks, you know, who are working mostly with groups of minoritized students, and trying to help them figure out sometimes when they need to navigate challenging conversations with each other. That’s been really cool. And then also just as someone who has been a member of various leadership teams, and now as somebody who coaches and consults and supports leaders who are sharing leadership around diversity, equity, and inclusion issues, cultivating embraces there has been really, really essential, you know, especially when you think about what kinds of things did groups of leaders need to do, when they are trying to lead around these issues, when they’re challenging the status quo, when they’re when they’re, when they’re going against the grain and trying to reexamine, you know, long standing and taken for granted, ways of doing things? That’s really hard to do, you know, to disrupt, to question each other right around that can be really, really hard. And so, so a lot of the concepts and principles of Brightspace have really been resonant, and that work to in terms of helping, again, groups of leaders, teams of leaders to think about, as folks who are going to share responsibility who are going to commit to doing this kind of work at our institution and our areas together. How is it that we are co creating brave space for and with each other?

Keith Edwards
I want to go there next. But you said there are some times where safe space would be better than brave space? Can you give us a couple examples about when safe space do you think would be a better fit than brave space? I think that’s really interesting and a little bit more detail.

Brian Arao
Yeah, yeah. So I’ll say pretty much any kind of event or space that you are convening, to address some kind of trauma or harm that has emerged for our community. Those are not spaces where where I would say brave spaces is the approach you want to go for. Right? It doesn’t seem aligned to the objective, because if the objective is we just need to create an opportunity for folks who are navigating a really, really difficult time or moment to process that to get support to connect to heal. You know, those are spaces where we don’t need to be thinking about the kinds of things that we’re encouraging folks to think about in a pretty.

Keith Edwards
Challenging, pushing, expanding, making people. Comfortable. Right. Right. That’s not the time for that. Great. Right.

Brian Arao
You know, and so that’s, I mean, that’s really the main objective, or the the main kind of situation that that I can think of. But again, I think what’s interesting is that a lot of folks, you know, what we’ve observed is that they they gravitate toward this idea of brave space that really resonates with them, it makes so much sense in so many aspects of their practice, but then can sort of end up supplanting, right other other approaches or frameworks. And so just kind of, again, recognizing that that, you know, depending on what you’re trying to do, you know, safe space might be more aligned. And I think especially, you know, when there’s been, you know, critical incidents in the world critical incidents on campus that have particular negative impact on specific minoritized student communities. Again, those are examples of times where we’re safe space might be a better approach and break in even if it’s not safe space, that perhaps brave space isn’t what you need to be aiming for either.

Keith Edwards
I can’t even imagine a conversation where I might be in where situation that you just described, were really wanting to create the safety and processing and opening and really being as supportive as possible, might then shift into a little bit more brave spaces. Now we’re talking about where do you want to go next, what might be next steps. I love that brave space isn’t a one size fits all. It means this all the time, every time but it’s really creating an environment where people can contribute. Take some risks, try some things be open and also, get out of this performative getting it right. Right or being right, but more into getting it right and learning and trying things. That’s where the learning happens. Kristi, how do you create brave space? Like, how do you go about doing that?

Kristi Clemens
Yeah. Well, I also want to say, you know, I think that there’s a misperception that, because we are talking about brave spaces and writing about brave spaces that we don’t think that safe spaces are valuable. And I think that safe spaces like trigger warnings and political correctness, those are these phrases that get thrown around in popular media. And because of the way there’s some derision attached to them that people were like that, well, you can’t have a brief conversation, if you don’t feel safe, we have to create those environments of safety and some trust before we can even consider stepping to that next level of asking people to display bravery within a group of folks that they may or may not know all that well. And so you know, one of the things that is most important to me about the brave space framework is that it’s a jumping off point that we don’t say these are the five or six things that I’m the agreements. And this is it, it’s a discussion and it’s a facilitated iterative conversation with the group that you’re working with. And I think as facilitators, you can sort of read the room. And if it’s not flying with this group for a particular reason, then you have the option to either poke at it a little bit more, or let people sit with a concept a little bit more. It really isn’t that one size fits all, which is what I think makes it helpful, but it does, I think about it in terms of progress, right. So it’s not just putting these these agreements on the wall and ignoring them for the rest of your time together, we’re striving towards them at all times, we’re trying to hold ourselves in fidelity to those things, and in asking people to take a little bit of risk, which can be really challenging. So having that foundation of safety in the room and your environment. related to the topic that you’re discussing, I think is the most important foundation. And it’s not always achievable, which is why we have that off ramp option.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, I love framing it in that way. And then when someone is really brave, like they share a really difficult thing, whether it’s sharing something personal, or I really disagree with where we’re going, as a group, to just be like, Wow, thanks, Kristi, for for really modeling that brave space. Like, did everybody see that? That’s what we’re talking about. And, and it becomes this rather than this contrarian or this bummer. Or why did that happen? Or now there’s conflict and becomes this, oh, that’s what we’re here for? Oh, to engage with that, to not avoid things like that. And you just see people go, Oh, okay. And it even open some of that up. So I love just, you know, not just setting it up. But noticing, and putting that out, and what opens up? What would you add here, Brian?

Brian Arao
Yeah, I mean, I think in terms of other ways to even go about, you know, cultivating or CO creating rich spaces with people that, you know, in the chapter, we talk a lot about how we used, you know, ground rules, committee agreements, you know, there’s lots of different terms now that that are out there. For, for, again, just just what it is that a group decides, in order for us to be brave or foreign with each other, what do we need to do? You know, for that to be possible? What commitments do we need to make. And, and so that still is a big part of a big tool that we utilize, in our practice, and in working with other folks who are looking to become more skilled at facilitating in Brave spaces. That list of possible, you know, group agreements is expanded. You know, I feel like every time I work with a new group, it like I add something else to the list of things that I like to include. Right. And sometimes it’s about, you know, proposing, you know, an agreement, you know, to the group, sometimes it’s about, you know, inviting a group to think about, you know, what an agreement actually means. I mean, oftentimes people will talk about, you know, let’s, let’s have respect, right? Or let’s, you know, let’s talk about like not judging each other, right. And those actually aren’t necessarily bad things, right. But but we do invite conversation in that moment around what I mean, for example, around the tax like, what what is it attack, right? When you say, no attacks? What do you mean by that? And in the context of a conversation, where maybe we need to be able to give each other, you know, difficult feedback or to offer a different opinion? How is it possible for us to do that in a way that is not an attack, right? And having an explicit conversation about that, before there’s even been, you know, that moment arising is often very helpful for folks to really think about that. Because again, I think that sometimes that’s where you get tripped up in safe spaces where, where people say, right, oh, I don’t feel safe. because actually what what I what I feel is just discomfort because someone has just presented me with a viewpoint that is different from what I’m, you know what I’m coming with. Sometimes that might be something that oh, gosh, that I feel embarrassed, right? Because I’m, like, I’m noticing or paying attention to something about myself that does doesn’t feel comfortable and good to look at. And, and in so just having those kinds of conversations, you know, within groups, so that they’re really clear about, you know, when they say particular things, and when they say they want to agree to doing particular things, what does that actually mean, in practice, and not letting it go? You know, just sort of on assumption. You know, I’ll also say even before that, if there’s time, and sometimes there’s just not time, right, I mean, Kristi and I will I’m sure you to keep get we, you know, we get requests all the time for like, can you come in and do like a one hour training on diversity, please? Which, you know, easy answer is no. But like sometimes like, But what could I do in that timeframe? Right? I can’t even have a full conversation with folks about what it would mean to co create bridge space, right, in an in a one hour time frame,

Keith Edwards
we’re going to try them right here right now.

Brian Arao
Right? Right. But if I do have like lots and lots of time, right available for that, or even just like an hour, right? Like, I love to just start out talking with people and say like, you know, a lot of times you might be used to coming into a space like this. And your facilitator might say that they’re aiming to create a safe space, right. And that’s not the approach that I’m bringing here today. The approach I’m bringing here is brave space. And but I want to talk with you a little bit about that. And then just ask them questions, right. So like, what do you think about safe space? What do you think about right? Book? And I asked them also like, what can be beneficial about a safe space? So you know, when might that be helpful? Before I ask them questions about like, you know, what may be different for you what comes up that sounds different, or feels different with respect to the idea of brave space? To ask them to share their thoughts around like, what, where that might be helpful or beneficial in the kind of conversation we’re about to have? And quite honestly, I mean, I don’t think I’ve ever had that conversation with any group of people, where they haven’t had the wisdom already around just being asked those questions, they are able to very clearly arrive at like, oh, yeah, right. Now we can see how this would be helpful in this context. And what it is you’re asking us to do? And so then that really is a wonderful way to then set the stage right for helping folks to say like, and then what are the behaviors, right? What are the commitments and promises we make to each other about how we talk to one another, so that, you know, we can all practice bravery in this space.

Keith Edwards
I love that you use the word cultivating and CO creating, because I think a lot of what this brave space shift is sharing responsibility with the participants and not just being the facilitator in control in charge and fully responsible, but sharing that and that that CO creating is really powerful, in and of itself, right before you even get into whatever the topic might be. And that’s how learning works, right? Like if I’m completely comfortable, I don’t have to learn new ways of knowing being you’re doing to go through that. Now, if I’m completely uncomfortable, I’m not going to learn either, because I’m going to shut down and retreat. And so what’s, what’s the sweet spot, man, what the sweet spot might be in this conversation of the right mix of a little bit of discomfort to foster learning might be completely different in another context might be completely different for me than it is for Brian. Right. And you know, you’re working with 25 people, they’re bringing all of that. And so I love this, the the ambiguity, the openness, the flexibility to really be authentic, and be in the moment and be alive with it rather than be. Well, at 905. The facilitator said, and so now it’s 330. And things are dicey. And so now we’re stuck, right is really powerful.

Kristi Clemens
I think it both externalizes and personalizes the framework, so you agree ahead of time, and then when you have those hot, spicy moments, you can say, just as you you know, refer but like, Hey, this is a great example. Remember what we all agreed to, it’s not just me as the facilitator who you may have never met before today, coming in to say, Hey, that’s not how we talk to people here that’s not useful. It might be necessary, depending on what the comment is, right? But the having that shared sense of ownership, I think, brings everyone in, regardless of where they’re entering the conversation, if they are really nervous and sort of picking up, you know, anxiety wise, or if they’re really comfortable, or if they just came to the conversation to start to really get into it, which is fine, too. It allows both folks to both feel like there’s an external sort of box that we’ve drawn of like, here are the frameworks. Here’s the agreements that we came to. And also these are the agreements that you agreed to and and added to and help to cultivate and build. So I think can be, I think it’s essential when you’re having these conversations, where you know that people are going to be pushed, pushing, pushing and pushed to the learning edges. And without the without the framework that they have bought into, things can go pretty off the rails.

Keith Edwards
I also imagine it can change, right? Like, oh, this is getting difficult. We wanted brave space, do we need to do something different now? To help people be brave? Or do we need a break? to recenter? Do we need to take a mindfulness moment and do a breathing activity? Or what do people need to return to a place where you feel like we can be brilliant?

Kristi Clemens
We’ve had that I mean, Brian, I’m thinking of one session that we did for student leaders, where we’re like, this is not working, we’re gonna need to take a break, like, and the two of us sort of got together to say, where, how do we bring this back to where it needs to be? We’ve heard what has happened has happened, we’re going to need to talk about that. And then how do we help to redirect to this group, so that we can continue to have productive conversations and do the things that we came here to do?

Brian Arao
Yeah, yeah. Which sometimes, right, you have to give yourself the space as facilitators, right to know, like, I need as the person responsible for helping this group to do what it’s here to do, I need a minute to make sure that I have the right plan, you know, with my cup with my coworker, right, if we’re doing that together, um, and then right to end, oftentimes, that, that that moment is really about strategizing about the best way, or the optimal way to invite that group back into awareness of those commitments they made. And also to understand like, are these still? Are these still working? Right? Do we still want or need these in these moments? If we don’t? What’s changed? You know, and what, and why might we want to do something different, you know, all of which I think helps that group, again, to think critically about is this because the nature of our conversation has shifted in a way where we’re really we don’t think that we need to be practicing brave space, or we need to do something different to practice brave space anymore, you know, or is it? Is it just that space? And that invitation to really reflect on? Am I just afraid to do this, right is a really hard thing for me to do. And I’m just really worried about doing that. And why right, like, that’s a fine thing also like that. We’re not saying that it’s bad, if that’s your experience, but also then to ask folks to think about what what is it that is causing that fear to come up? Right. And and in particular, right around social justice issues? If the fear that’s coming up is we’re I’m now I’m now needing to look at an aspect of my dominance and my privilege that I am not comfortable looking at, right? And that’s the reason that you no longer want to practice bravery. You need to think you need to be aware of that. Right? You need to know that and you need to decide what what you want to do based on that information in the mindful way, as opposed to simply saying, I’m uncomfortable. We can’t do this anymore. Yeah,

Keith Edwards
yeah. Your comments about needing space for facilitators to regroup reminds me that before I was a parent, I thought timeouts were for children. And now I reach their realize timeouts or for grownups to regather, regroup their patients come back to this, when we started with the origin story, sort of this, this experience that left things amiss from all your intentions, coming up with this idea and sharing it, and it’s sort of growing beyond you. And becoming this thing that you’re slightly amazed is still out there, and people are still utilizing and all these different ways, and it grows beyond you. So what are some of the challenges, the cautions, the nuances you would want to share with folks who maybe have heard about brave space not from the two of you? Or have maybe seen it used or used it? Not the way that you particularly intended? What would you want to put out there for folks?

Brian Arao
In the state, yeah,

Kristi Clemens
I want to give Brian a shout first, that, as my diligent co author and friend that Brian often reminds me that we do not own the words brave space. And that is a good de-escalation tool for me when I’m like, This is not right. This is not the way that we intended it. And the words can mean really different things. So I think it’s a great jumping off point for us to get into that.

Brian Arao
Yeah, I mean, there’s the term brief space. And then there’s the framework that Kristi and I have developed and cultivated over time, right, in collaboration with other educators who have helped us and what students right, who also helped us to refine it. But But I think the term Brave Spaces is pretty well known. And it’s often used in a way that is disconnected from that framework. Right? And so people might say they’re aiming to create a bridge space. That doesn’t mean they’re trying to do the thing that Kristi and I have talked about, right. And so I think that’s that’s sort And one thing that is worth noting here, um, you know, I think, my hope, especially for folks who are trying to draw connection, but you know, from the work that Kristi and I have done, you know, to what they’re doing around brace spaces that, you know, I get concerned sometimes when When I observe what looks to me like cherry picking from our framework, you know, in particular cherry picking around the things like, Oh, yes, we want people to feel free to say whatever the heck they want. Right. And oftentimes, I mean, my perception is that it might be from folks who are who are not actually supportive of DEI, social justice work, really wanting to say this is giving me license to say whatever racist, sexist, hetero sexist, homophobic, sexist, whatever thing that I want to say, right. And that should be fine without accountability. Brave Space. Right. Without accountability, right. And I think that, you know, so I would just really caution folks, you know, when they, if they hear folks trying to evoke safe space, or brave space in that way, you know, it’s just to really recognize that, that we’re crystal clear in the model that, that there is an analysis of power, privilege and oppression that must be present to really understand what it is that we were talking about. And so and when and when that’s missing. That’s when that’s one of the times where I think things go awry. And that’s one of the times where people I think, perhaps get a bad taste left in their mouths around what brave space is. And so I just yeah, really just wanting to emphasize that piece around. Just Just again, that the the not taking out the social justice components that are really a part of the DNA of what Kristi and I envisioned.

Keith Edwards
And we do want people to say what they really think and how they really feel and have other people share. Here’s how that impacts me. And here’s what I’ve learned about that, and have that accountability, because I think those moments can be transformative when they’re not weaponized, and when there is accountability. And it can really bring that that learning and transformation in one of their cautions and nuances, Kristi, you want to share,

Kristi Clemens
I think just a reminder that it’s not a band aid or some sort of magical balm for all your problems on your campus and off. We’ve seen this cyclic Lee through the ages, I think it was Intergroup Dialogues, and then it’s restorative justice. And that, you know, it can be brave space, like hold is, you know, we’re just gonna apply brave spaces, and we’ll be fine. It’s not like take two Advil and call me in the morning, right. And so the to get, you know, building on what Brian was saying that you can’t divorce this framework, and our intentionality from talking about systems of power and privilege and oppression. But I think that some people see it as an easy and easy way to just like, well, this is a brave space. So you know, everything’s fine, nobody worry about it. And you’re in that way, you’re doing the same thing that we encountered 20 years ago, with people saying, this is a safe space, safe space, so everyone needs to be okay with it. And so those are the things that make me nervous when we just see these assertions of work, creating brave spaces, where are you? And how, and how is that connected to this work? And if it’s not, that’s fine. But we should at least talk about that we’ve dipped back in particularly since 2016. On when we see brave spaces being used in a way that’s actually causing harm, and thought about do we have some responsibility to address this? Or to update the chapter or do a new presentation? And we haven’t done that yet? Because I think the word of God no, well, true, true. But I think you know, people are going to take take what they want from the work and it will evolve the way it is we’re clear in what our understanding and our expectation is when people are using the framework as intended. And you know, beyond that, we can just remind folks of the of the appropriate utilization and the potential harm that it can cause when it’s used inappropriately.

Keith Edwards
I think there’s a big difference between people who maybe are misusing it, despite good intentions who are genuine in their approach, but maybe missing and folks who are disingenuously using it for their own agendas, right, that’s that’s really different. Before we move to our final question, is there anything either of you wants to say about brave space that you haven’t gotten a chance to say yet?

Brian Arao
I mean, maybe maybe just you know, the put out there. I mean, I think the last paragraph of our of our book chapter we say something to the effect of, you know, we accept this framework will continue to grow and evolve, we would love to hear from you and to use to help this framework to continue to grow and evolve. And there’s no question right that we the, our practice of brave space, our understanding of what it is and could be has transformed dramatically be because of the amazing DEI, social justice educators and students, right, who have been generous with their wisdom, and share with us, right, here’s how we’re using it. Here’s how we’re experiencing this. Here’s some thoughts about, you know, how we could use it in different spaces and use it well, as well as like, here’s a concern I have, right. And so you know, what, I guess I’d love just love to put out there, right, that we continue to really want to hear from folks, especially folks who are also DEI and social justice educators to help us like keep keep this thing alive and growing. Right. And, and adapting to the new things that we learn as a society, right. As the universe of DEI expands, constantly, right? How, how does gray space need to transform in order to to be useful? You know, in that work, so please let us know. Yeah, contact?

Keith Edwards
Yes. I love that you’re brave about talking about brave space? Yes. Well, we are running out of time. And so our last question is always on Student Affairs NOW, what are you thinking troubling pondering now it might be about brave space might be about this conversation might be about other things, but just really want to know what’s kind of with you in this moment? And then also folks want to connect with you and maybe share some of those thoughts? where might they be able to connect with you? Kristi, let’s start with you. What do you what’s with you now?

Kristi Clemens
Well, you know, I have been watching our students really struggle with developing and executing critical thinking skills. And I don’t know how much that is my placement at an elite Ivy League institution of students who think I need to do these five things in order to be successful. And not necessarily always thinking about when obstacles arise, what they do with that, where that’s evolved to is observing that students are really unable to have difficult conversations, I see that in my title nine coordinator role when folks are coming not to talk about issues of sexual misconduct. But you know, this person wants to be my friend, and I don’t want to be their friend. And I would say, Have you told them that and they can’t even begin to think about how to have that conversation. And so whether that’s pandemic effect or other stuff, you know, I’m not, I’m not sure. But it’s really pervasive in the campus environments that I’m observing. And so part of the reason that I got involved with developing the dialogue project is to instead of just observing it, let’s think about doing something about it. And rather than putting that work just on our student affairs professionals thinking about a way that we can infuse that work through all of the things that we’re doing at our institution, in the classroom, in student affairs work in, you know, student, interpersonal, student leadership roles, and trying to drill down on that, what are those skills that are missing? And how do we teach them in a way that doesn’t just teach to folks who will opt into the conversation, but really raises the temperature for the entire institution? So that is an interesting and interesting thing that we’ve been working on that really is an offshoot of like, Hmm, this is a real problem, we should probably do something about that. So we’ll see how it goes. And I think, you know, like all of us who have been doing de IBJ work for a long time watching the coordinated and calculated attacks on this work on our college campuses, intended to devalue the good work that’s been done to recast it in a in a way that is inaccurate. I worry about the state of higher education, as I read the Chronicle and Inside Higher Ed every day, and wow, like state by state, institution by institution, to what end? You know, what, what is what is the end of this look like? And I just don’t know. So I think that we need to be talking about that, and how to combat that instead of just passively saying, Well, this is happening. What can we do as practitioners to push back on that?

Keith Edwards
Yeah. Awesome. Brian, what’s with you now?

Brian Arao
Yeah. Well, just connecting to what Kristi said, right? That one of the things that I’ve been thinking a lot about, and certainly informed by, by a number of amazing thought leaders in the DEI space is in the face of all of these attacks on DEI, and I say specifically DEI, because it’s very rare that some of these critiques actually say diversity, equity and inclusion, right? It’s it’s punchy, to say DEI must die. But when you ask someone back, like diversity must die, is that really, equity should not be something more striving for inclusion is a problem. Most people are like no no no no, just DEI, right, which has been cast in this particular way. Right. And so I’m just a lot more strategic these days and thinking, thinking more critically about when do I want to use DEI because that’s language that my audience will understand this as I end tended to be understood? And when do I want to be real explicit about DEI stands for diversity, equity and inclusion? Right? Because especially if you’re skeptical of it, if you’re concerned about it, I want you to know, right? Those are the words that we’re talking about here. And those words have powerful meaning that I think most people actually do connect with them on some level. And so I’ve just really been appreciating some of the things that are out there, you know, especially as some organizations and companies are walking back, right Frenchmen think what can we say, instead of the DEI is to think about maybe you don’t want to do that, right? Maybe sometimes it’s, it’s good to continue saying DEI or sometimes maybe you just want to be real explicit about what the acronym actually stands for, you know, and every aspect of that word. You know, and I think related, again, to this, the same thing is, in the context of all these attacks on DEI, in higher ed, in particular, I, I think a lot about the experiences of higher education leaders, and specifically leaders with minoritized and marginalized identities, who are navigating these attacks, who are experiencing, you know, deep, tremendous negative impacts to their careers to their health and well being as a result of these kinds of attacks. And wanting, especially as somebody who focuses in my day to day work on supporting DEI leadership, as I’m really trying to think about, like, what What opportunities are there out there for me to make sure that I’m focusing that work in a way that really makes a positive difference in the experiences of marginalized minoritized? Leaders? Who, who we desperately need, right, and for whom it would be completely understandable to say, I’m not into this anymore, right. But for folks who are who are saying, I’m not, you know, I’m not ready to throw in the towel here. I want to stick with this is really thinking about, okay, what can I do? And what can all of us do, of course, to, to help folks who are committed to that work to stay in that work, right. And so, Keith had also asked, I think, where folks can connect with us if they want to so I’m, I’m on a couple socials, Instagram, Dr. Brian Arao and LinkedIn as well. And then of course, you can always go to bravespaceleadership.com. And you can find both Kristi and I there. Are we about all the different things that we do through space leadership, and and if you want to contact us there, we’ve got that contact form on the site as well.

Kristi Clemens
Awesome, thank you. I forgot about that. I also have a LinkedIn, that’s probably the best place to contact me. Awesome. Great. Well, thank

Keith Edwards
you both for joining us and talking about this little idea that has grown and sprouted and now is rooted maybe big oak tree. It’s really great to hear about how it came to be and I love you sharing it with us and also sharing the complexities of it with us today. So thank you. And thanks to our sponsors for today’s episode, both Huron and Leadershape. Huron is a global professional services firm that collaborates with clients to put possible into practice by creating sound strategies, optimizing operations, accelerating digital transformation, and empowering businesses and their people to own their future. By embracing diverse perspectives, encouraging new ideas and challenging the status quo. They create sustainable results for the organizations they serve, and Leadershape. Leadershape partners with colleges and universities to create transformational leadership experiences for students and professionals. With a focus on creating a more just caring and thriving world. Leadershape offers engaging learning experiences on courageous dialogue, integrity, equity, resilience, and community building. To find out more about Leadershape, or connect with them on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn, and huge shout out to our producer Nat Ambrosey who does all the behind the scenes work to make us all look and sound good. And we love the support for these important conversations from you, our community. You can help us reach even more folks by subscribing to the podcast, subscribing on YouTube, or subscribing to our weekly newsletter, where you’ll learn about each new episode every Wednesday morning. If you’re so inclined, you can also leave us a five star review. It really helps us reach more folks. I’m Keith Edwards. Thanks again to our fabulous guests today and to everyone who’s watching and listening. Make it a great week.