LeeRay Costa
We really wanted people to speak from their experience and to hear those stories, because it’s such a powerful way for us to connect with one another, to be vulnerable, to take risks. And those were elements of this that emerged, you know, that was that were difficult for people, depending on, you know, where they are located in this space, within higher ed, within the United States at this particular moment. So, you know, I think that we, we wanted to sort of take a different angle. It wasn’t kind of a research based study, kind of text, and we wanted to give people a chance to connect with others and define community.

Keith Edwards
Hello and welcome to Student Affairs NOW. I’m your host. Keith Edwards, today, I’m joined by the three editors of the book, and this is a title. Here you go. Folks, Contemplative Practices and acts of resistance in higher education, narratives toward wholeness. We could probably do this whole episode just going word by word by word of that fabulous title, these editors have shepherded 34 different authors, stories, scholarship, insights and life experiences into this powerful volume showing many different ways being, being can be a radical act of resistance, challenging systems and structures and bringing us toward wholeness seems relevant in these times. To be sure, I’m so excited to have the three of you here for this conversation. Student Affairs NOW is the premier podcast and online learning community for 1000s of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs, we release new episodes every week on Wednesdays and sometimes on Thursday nights or Friday mornings with our current campus context, you can find details about this episode or browse our archives@studentaffairsnow.com This episode is brought to you by our two sponsors, Evolve and Huron. Evolve helps higher education senior leaders release fear, gain courage and take action for transformational leadership through a personalized cohort based virtual executive leadership development experience. A lot of connections to today’s topic. And here on is an educational and research is a Huron education and research experts help institutions transform their strategy, operations, technology and culture to foster innovation, financial health and student success. As I mentioned, I’m your host, Keith Edwards. My pronouns are he, him, his. I’m a speaker, author and coach, and I help higher ed leaders Empower transformation for better tomorrows through better leadership, learning and equity. You can find out more about me at Keith edwards.com and I am recording this from my home here in Minneapolis, Minnesota, which is at the intersections of the current and ancestral homelands of both the Dakota in the Ojibwe peoples. Let’s get to this conversation in this tantalizing book title. Thanks to the three of you for being here and for joining me. Love to hear as we get started, just a little bit about each of you. And I think David, we’re going to start with you perfect.

David W. Robinson-Morris
I’m happy to be here. Thank you, Keith, for having us. My name is David Robinson Morris, and I am the founder and chief reimaginer of the reimagined a small strategic consultancy that really helps folks to re enliven their imagination and provoke possibility right for the future, for healing and liberation. I’m also the founder of the Center for the human spirit and radical reimagining, the nonprofit arm of that work that does much of the same, but we focus our work there on research and scholarly activism in education, in criminal legal system, work and in environmental justice work.

Keith Edwards
Let’s get that title one more time, because it may be my favorite ever. Can you hit us with it? It

David W. Robinson-Morris
It is the chief reimagining at the reimagination. Awesome.

Keith Edwards
I think folks will be able to find later where you can find out more about all of that. That’s fantastic. Glad you are here. David, Michelle, let’s hear a little bit from you.

Michelle Chatman
Sure. Thank you so much for having us. Keith, I’m Michelle C Chatman. I am an associate professor at the University of the District of Columbia in Washington, DC, which is also my undergrad alma mater. I am an anthropologist. I’m a vocalist, I’m a community ritualist and a healing centered educator. I am also the Director, founding director, of the mindful and courageous Action Lab at UDC, which advances healing centered approaches to teaching, research, leadership and community engagement. I’m happy to be here. Beautiful and LeeRay.

LeeRay Costa
yeah, hi. Thank you so much for having us, Keith. I get to be here with some of my favorite people on the planet. So this is wonderful. So I’m LeeRay Costa, and I am Professor of Gender and Women’s Studies at Hollins University, which is a historically Women’s College in Roanoke, Virginia. I’m trained as a cultural anthropologist, and my current role at our institution is that I’m the executive director of our batten Leadership Institute, which offers leadership training for undergraduates as well as folks in our wider community and alumni, and so I’m just really excited to be here doing the work with you fabulous folks. Thank you.

Keith Edwards
You can hear those are some of the most brief introductions of esteemed authors and faculty, right? Very brief. But you can also just hear in those three introductions the creativity the. Innovation, the entrepreneurial. These are people who are doing things, creating things, in many different aspects, as the complex folks that they are. So really appreciate all of that gives us just a tip of the iceberg. I mentioned in our intro this wonderful title that just sort of unfolds with excitement and then more excitement and then more excitement. I was just oohing and eyeing over, just reading through the title, I want to begin with the contemplative practices. And this sits in a larger ecosystem of contemplative practices in higher education. And David, maybe you can begin us in the conversation of sort of where this sits and how this kind of emerged in a larger context.

David W. Robinson-Morris
So my very simple definition of contemplative practice, right? And Michelle and LeeRay have a really wonderful definition of their own, the ways in which we come home to ourselves, the methods in which we can stink back down into our body, reconnect with our spirits and our souls, and in turn, reconnect with everything that exists right in the known universe. Contemplative practice is a method and putting on my curriculum theory hat right method is always an ontological decision. It’s always a decision about how we tend or want to be in the world. And so contemplative practice really helps, in some ways, to ground us in our humanity, but also in our cosmic nature. Right? We were living in this sort of duality within higher education, at least my understanding and LeeRay and Michelle have been at this much longer than I have, but within higher education, I was the I’ll go back a little bit Keith. I was the final Executive Director for an organization called the Center for contemplative mind in society, a 30 year old nonprofit. Michelle was our final board chair for that organization. And the whole purpose of that org was to help to infuse higher education, in particular, with contemplative practice and contemplative pedagogy, right with ways of transforming teaching and learning that allowed both students and teachers to come home to themselves in environments that don’t foster that always that organization for 30 plus years, just about had been doing this work of trying to infuse this system with those practices, and really helped to to to have it proliferate within higher Education. Right now we have conferences and organizations and and folks who are who are doing yoga classes and deep breathing before classes and all of these things which didn’t exist 30 years ago, right as a means of bringing students back home to themselves and into their fullness.

Keith Edwards
Lovely, lovely. LeeRay, what do you want to add to this context that this sits in. Yeah,

LeeRay Costa
I wanted to just say that, you know, C, mine was really critical in my journey of coming to back to contemplative practices, something that I engaged in when I was very young. But then as I was going through sort of my PhD training, really, a lot of that got pushed aside because A, there wasn’t time for it, and B, it wasn’t valued, you know. And so finding sea mind after I kind of went through a health and spiritual crisis was really key. And to find these folks who were engaged in contemplative practice, a in their own lives, and then be in their work life within the university environment was so powerful. And I could just feel that presence that people brought because they were taking the time to be still and to become aware and to do all the things that David’s referring to. And so I think that contemplative practices for me have have really been that grounding practice that allows me to constantly return to what are my values, what are my priorities, what are my commitments? Because the world surrounding us right now is trying to knock us off balance all the time, and we cannot do the work that we are committed to if we aren’t grounded in our own center, in our own home, our own being

Keith Edwards
beautiful. I feel so many people yearning for what you’re describing right now. Yeah, Michelle, what do you want to add. I’m

Michelle Chatman
so excited about this conversation. I feel myself just kind of jumping all around over here. Thank you. I want to do a couple of things. I want to add and acknowledge. Mirabai Bush, Arthur, Zion rose, Saki Milligan, Rhonda McGee, some of our predecessors, elders and colleagues, who were instrumental in the formulation of the Center for contemplative mind and society and the Association for contemplative mind and higher education, which is the annual conference that C mind used to host that really brought us together. In community, in service to humanity, not just higher education, but in service to humanity. I also want to invite a contemplative practice. I am an anthropologist. I’m an educator and and I also know that one critical way that we learn is by doing. I’m an experiential educator, so I would like to invite us into practice by reading the practice that is in our book. You can’t see it too great, because I’ve got this background, um, but I’m going to, I’m going to jump into it. So I’ll invite all of you who are listening to this wonderful episode to just get settled and situated in your body in the way that works for you.

Speaker 1
And I invite you to inhale with gratitude and exhale with gladness.

Michelle Chatman
Take note of your interior, the feelings, sensations and thoughts that are arising now slowly scan your environment by allowing your senses to wander the space you are in,

Michelle Chatman
noticing the sounds, the smells, the sights, if your eyes are open, and All the sensations that are available to you now you

Michelle Chatman
noticing even the thoughts as best you can without judgment, but with curiosity and tenderness. Acknowledge Earth, stars, water and sky in a way that feels right for you, a nod, a smile, a dance. Imagine the love of your ancestors and the yet born enveloping you, inhale with spaciousness and exhale with surrender and bring awareness to the present moment like water, let the feelings flow, invite curiosity, extend kindness, allow your body to be at ease. Give thanks. Thank you.

Keith Edwards
Thank you, Michelle, that’s lovely for us to connect to. Is there anything else you wanted to add before I move to our next question? No, well, that’s okay, because the next question you’re going to lead us off, so you going? Awesome. Yeah, so that’s really great. And I love center for contemplative mind and other authors and contributors that definition, and listening to some other conversations, I know that David does love his definitions, so I would thank you for gifting us with that about coming home to ourselves. Appreciate that. Let’s move to a little bit more about this book and this volume, tell us about the book. How did it come to be? I think you gave some of the things that sort of nurtured her into existence. But maybe you can tell us the origin story, the structure and what it offers. And we’ll start with you, Michelle.

Michelle Chatman
I’ll do my best. So one of our contemplative colleagues, Carolyn Kinane, approached us about doing something in honor of the what was then the approaching 10 year anniversary of contemplative practices in higher education, which was written by Mirabai Bush, one of the founders of C mind and Dan. Our former executive director, and that came out in 2013 I believe, and it really focused on pedagogy, right on teaching and learning, and how these practices really cultivate sort of environment in the classroom of openness and non judgment and deep engagement. And you know how the practices just really enliven the learning environment. Carolyn’s idea was that we that we sort of do another version right in honor of the 10 year anniversary, and then as as we came together as a team, noticing the moment that we were in at the time, we wanted to take the project in a slightly different direction, well, in a vastly different direction. We wanted to bring more diverse voices and ways of practicing to that volume. We wanted to hear from educators and scholars who were engaged in regular contemplative practice. We wanted to know what brought them to contemplative practices. We wanted to acknowledge the very challenging time moving through COVID 19, the increased demands placed upon professionals in higher education, the uncertainty of the higher ed environment and, quite frankly, the toxicity the patriarchy and the hierarchy that are also a part of higher education culture, academic culture. So we wanted to, we wanted to trouble the waters just a little bit. And we wanted to know the back story right one of the problems or challenges that I’ve had with contemplative practices, and you know, many people understand this or use the language of mindfulness now, however, contemplative practices are much broader. But one of the challenges I’ve always had is what I call this sort of instant add water and stir approach, right? We go to a conference, we learn that this person is using this particular approach in their class, and it’s like, I love that I want to do that. I’m gonna do it on Monday, right? And they just adopt it immediately. And so I became very concerned with people perhaps taking that approach in in the space of higher ed with regard to contemplative practices, because what we often say is that you need to live the practice and be the practice and embody the practice. Whatever your practice is, right, whether it is mindfulness meditation, listening to jazz, deeply storytelling, or what have you, you need to live that practice and share it from a space of wisdom, not from a space of attempting to to change or coerce or either unintentionally, further oppress or harm people. So we were really wanted to to create an offering where we could hear from the range, very diverse range of our colleagues and others in higher ed who were living contemplative practices and sharing them with a deep sense of ethics and love and reverence. So I know, I know LeeRay and David have can fill that out a little bit more. Yeah,

Keith Edwards
go ahead. Leray,

LeeRay Costa
um, yeah, I would say that. You know, we, we really did decide on personal narratives, on stories. We wanted to hear stories. And I noticed reviewing your site, that you have this new podcast within student affairs now, which really does focus on, I can’t remember what it’s called. Here’s your it’s called, here’s your story

Keith Edwards
or something. Here’s Yeah, here’s the story. And it’s just people coming on and telling their best story,

LeeRay Costa
right? And that’s what we wanted to hear. We really wanted people to speak from their experience and to hear those stories, because it’s such a powerful way for us to connect with one another, to be vulnerable, to take risks. And those were elements of this that emerged, you know, that was that were difficult for people, depending on, you know, where they are located in this space, within higher ed, within the United States at this particular moment. So, you know, I think that we, we wanted to sort of take a different angle. It wasn’t kind of a research based study, kind of text, and we wanted to give people a chance to connect with others and define community. And boy has that resonated, as we found through our virtual webinars that we’ve been doing. And I did just want to comment a little bit about just how the book is organized. So there are four sections. They’re organized around themes, and each contributor, each chapter also offers a practice, so some practice that that person or that group of people have been using for some time you know, and really lived into and feel you know, ready to share with others. And it’s an invitation for folks to see what resin. For them and to try those things through their own practices, before they then bring that, you know, into the classroom or into their workspace or onto their team, or whatever it may be. So I think that that’s that’s really important. That’s another piece of the contribution.

Keith Edwards
Well, that thank you. That’s helpful. And before, before we hear from David about this, I just some of these titles are too good, so here’s just some. I’m not going to do them all, because that would take too much of your time. But Chapter Five is contemplative practices through a black feminist lens, badassery for real, love and fellowship. Okay? Chapter 14 is cool like jazz, a loving dialog on the multiplicity of black manhood. Chapter 15, showing up audacious and badass from the edges and on the margins like my ancestors. And chapter 25 one of the next to last chapters, contemplative resistance amongst the fires of global suffering. So that’s just this smattering of some of the headlines of these chapters, as you said, are stories, personal experiences, a lot of powerful examples of what these practices can do, the impact they can have. But then also, here’s what these practices are. So there’s a lovely sort of like personal narrative story, but then also super tangible and helpful at the same time. So hopefully that gives folks a sense. David, what do you want to add here about the book and what it offers?

David W. Robinson-Morris
I’ll just say very briefly, I think it’s Toni Morrison who says that we literally write ourselves onto a page, and each chapter, each of the contributors writes themselves onto the page right? They not only write their experiences onto the page, but they write their hopes and imaginings for a future where they could be whole right onto the page within a system that is chock full of issues and problems, but it’s, it’s a system in place that we love, because we believe that higher education institutions are magical in some ways, right? You have, you have traditional age students at least, coming in as teenagers and leaving as adults, leaving formed differently than when they when they came to you. These are magical environments, and the amount of suffering that the people who actually helped conduct the magic are going through is hidden in a large way. And so this book for me, as we’re reading through all of the contributors work, right? Is about, how do you regain wholeness? Right? In these systems where I’m silently suffering, where I am doing the work every day, I’m I’m here, I’m showing up, but in a large way, I’m being oppressed while teaching others how to resist depression, right? Think about like, what has to happen with us, but we’re in this sort of cognitive dissonance of the work that we do, what we’re experiencing and who we hope will leave us in four years or six years, or however long it takes them to leave us, right? This was really about helping folks to imagine themselves whole, right? My whole practice is the imagination, right? And if you cannot imagine it, you can’t have it. And so how do we engage our collective imagination to build a system that works for us? All right? That’s, that’s, I think, is the ultimate offering of the book.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, I think that’s so critical. I think one of the key things when I’m working with the clients that I coach, which are often higher ed senior leaders, is if you’re waiting for the hurricane to pass, you’re in real trouble. I use stronger language, but the hurricane of the news, the economy, enrollment cliffs, racism, classism, all sorts of intersecting forms of systemic oppression. If you’re waiting for that all to resolve before you move forward and have peace, calm and brilliance in your life, you’re you’re in real trouble. But how do you find that within you, amidst all of this so you can most effectively engage with it? And these practices are really about that, coming home to ourselves, that groundedness that LeeRay was talking about, that presence and tools so that we can be our best selves, in spite of all the things that are swirling around in the midst of and maybe even with and through, all of the things that are swirling for ourselves, for our students, and maybe some of that swirl is part of the teachable moment and part of the practices I want to you know we’re already talking about this. I don’t need to transition for those who might, maybe possibly we can imagine being feeling overwhelmed by what I refer to as this hurricane swirling around, by the news, by systemic, marginal. Organization by urgency. And I’ve been thinking a lot about this urgency. Some of the urgency, I think, is real. Some of it is manufactured intentionally and purposefully. Some of that urgency is externally imposed and some of it is internally imposed. But as all of this swirls around what does this volume offer that can help us navigate these moments like this? LeeRay, let’s start with you.

LeeRay Costa
Yeah, and this is very much on my mind, because this is what I’m living. This is what we’re all living. And I find myself, at times, being pulled into postures and attitudes and ways of being that are not who I am, you know, I see the stuff that is, you know, being generated in the news. I see all the things that are being taken away from us and all the people that are being harmed, and it creates this anger and rage, and that is not who I am, but it’s telling me something important, so I need to pay attention to that, and that’s one of the things that practices do, it helps us to acknowledge what is arising. How am I engaging with that? And how do I bring myself to a place where I can notice that, observe that, and then make sense of that? And you know, one of the things that I’ve noticed happening is that all of this around us is influencing the way that people are interacting with one another and their interpersonal relationships, right? And so a very simple interaction may, you know, turn into something more conflict, because people are not aware of what they’re carrying. They’re not noticing. They’re not spending the time to sort of be in touch with that and figure out, how do I manage that? And of course, I mean, we’re all in overwhelm right now, so it makes sense. It’s not a judgment, it’s an observation. And so I think that reading this text and learning from folks who’ve had to manage similar kinds of situations and feelings and how they’ve done that in such delicate but beautiful ways, imperfect ways at times as well, is really powerful. Again, it’s those personal stories that we can connect with, to feel less alone, to know that there are ways that people are managing this. And I think it also brings us to community, and that’s one of the things that we found in doing our virtual events around the book, is how powerful a the writing was for the folks who did it, they’ve been sharing with us what they were going through during COVID and at the time and how powerful the writing process was, but then also being in community, being able to share with one another, ask those questions and be in community. Think there’s a tendency at times like this also for us to withdraw and to be alone and to be isolated, and that is, I think, the wrong move. I think we really do need to lean into our community and sort of share with one another and share those practices as we’re able to,

Keith Edwards
yeah, this really resonates, because I think I’m hearing from so many folks who are going through so much and they’re really depleted, right? Their resistance has been used and used and used, and resilience has been used and used and used, and then something happens, and they just they’re out, and they act as not the best version of themselves. At the same time, the thing that pushed them over the edge was someone else who maybe be is dealing with the 12th thing that day that they had to overcome and navigate through. And so I think that self understanding of what we’re going through can also be a source of empathy for what other people are going through. It doesn’t excuse inappropriate behavior, but maybe we engage with it in a different way, if we can connect and imagine to David’s favorite word. Imagine. I don’t know what you’re going through, Michelle, but I imagine it might be something like this, and so I will offer some more grace and some other things. Michelle, what do you want to add here about how this might serve us?

Michelle Chatman
Yeah, I think it might serve us by reminding us that we are not alone, that we do have resilience. We have moved through very difficult times, right? It can remind us of our collective history, our personal history of moving through darkness, of transmuting that darkness, and, and I would hope that it would also remind people that we still have power. We still have power and, and I would encourage people to lean into that power and to create from that power. Right David talks about imagination right. Now I’m in a place where I’m really thinking about creation. I’m thinking about, what can I make? What can I do? How can I create new energy, or create an offering, or or just, you know, just bring that element, bring that energy into my life. And so I. Also invite people to to the extent that they can create something every day, whether that is a poem, a piece of art, a delicious meal or snack, you know, create, help generate a smile on somebody else’s face. Reach out to a neighbor or a colleague in a way that you haven’t before. I was at the conference yesterday. It ended yesterday, future world changes in the academy, conference, which is predominantly women of color in the academy, and Doctor Gloria Ladson billings, who offered us the the language of culturally affirming, affirming education. I was our keynote for the lunch hour, and she told us to double down in our joy, in our generosity to ourselves and and our humanity. Double down in our humanity and and I heard, you know, create more humanity, right, as much as you possibly can, because the assaults, the attacks, like every day, every day, as we have seen, there is something that tries to kill us. Thank you. Lucille Clifton, every day. So we have to, we have to be committed to creation, creating joy and humanity as much as we can.

Keith Edwards
Inspiring. David, what do you want to add here?

David W. Robinson-Morris
Yeah, that’s beautiful. You know, everything that LeeRay and Michelle have said yes and yes and more of, we need more of it, I think, for this moment right, this volume offers us a beat, a pause, Right, a rest we are so worked up about everything that we just have to pause for a moment, right? There’s a there’s a mystic that says stillness is the language that God speaks however you conceive her to be, right? And I think when I don’t know what to do, I get still, right? I get quiet. And the answer comes, but it comes because I’ve developed the ability to listen to the movements of my own heart, right? And I’ve learned, as this book tries to teach us, I’ve learned that I am human, therefore nothing human is alien to me, right? And I have to sink into my humanity, right? I’m not a superhero. The only thing I can transform is me. Everything is an inside job, and that’s what the book teaches us. First, transformation is an inside job that that spreads like wildfire right in your community, if it’s done in ways that are appropriate, so that there is there is nothing that can be accomplished. There’s no resistance, there’s no revolution, there’s no liberation that can be accomplished without first transforming ourselves. Right? What I often tell people that I that I meet with and work with, is, how do we fix the system? How do we transform the system? And it’s, transform yourself first, right? The system only exists for its own survival, and once the people who are in the system transform, the system will either resist the transformation and oppress you. Or if it is at threat of death, it will move in the way that you’re moving because it wants to exist for it. It has to exist for it. Don’t survive, right? So we all came together this community piece, right? This collective piece. If we all came together in an act of transformation and intention and awareness that is pointed at a single point, a single imagining of a better future, right? The system will try and oppress us as much as they can. We’re in it. We’re living it, right. But if we keep pushing with intentional action, the system will give in, it will break and it will conform to the people that are in it, because it has to exist for its own survival. That’s, that’s, it’s our sole purpose. And I think the book teaches us that, in a real way, it’s all an inside job, and the only thing you can transform is right where you stand. Yeah, I love that.

Keith Edwards
I mean, one of the things in in our evolve program that we mentioned is that all social change begins with with inner work, and that’s so true and so powerful. And on my days when I’m not connected to wholeness and I’m small and petty, That’s so frustrating, I just want, I want social change to be bought. Y’all need to do something different. You all need to stop doing the things that you’re doing, get it together. And on the other side of that resistance, there’s so much agency, as Michelle said, so much power. If focusing on what am I doing? How do I want to be in the world, shifting that and how that does. Sort of magically or through alchemy, shift so many other things in ways that might not even be anticipated or intended or expected. You’ve mentioned this is sort of a 10 year follow up, maybe 12, but you started this in 2023, as a 10 year follow up. That was a while ago, and I’ve edited a book, and you get a lot of stuff coming at you, and you sort through it and go, this is not what we thought it was going to be. And you merge, and you’re providing feedback on writing and ideas, and you’re hearing from authors, and you’re kind of in this conversation with them, and you’re kind of in these conversations with each other. And then the book comes out a year later, and now you’re having all these conversations about it. I’d love to hear from each of you through the process of designing and curating and editing and writing this book. What did you learn, relearn or unlearn you’ve maybe through the book process, or maybe through some of the conversations you’re having, David, let’s begin with you anything that you learned, relearned or unlearned.

Keith Edwards
as non verbals, for those not watching a lot,

David W. Robinson-Morris
this was three years of good work, right? And lots of contributors. We’ve read through lots of manuscripts, and we provided several rounds of feedback and editing to get folks to feel safe enough to show up on a page right in ways that would not risk their livelihood, but in ways that they told the truth and the unvarnished truth about their experience. What I learned throughout this process was, while we have some courageous people doing great work across the country, and what was evident to me, not that I didn’t know this, but what became clear to me was the amount of pain and joy, right, that we experience within our institutions on a daily basis, and how in some cases we we’ve learned to perform well, So Well, right, that no one would even know that I am living through a personal hell every day because I come and smile. I do my job. Students love me. I win awards, right? I write book chapters. And then you read some of these chapters, and you think, Boy, I would have never known, right? We have learned to put on the performance, which may be to our detriment, right, because it’s not showing the fullness of our humanity in a real way. You know, I also learned about myself that I have lots of opinions about everything. And you know, the one thing I had to go back to is I was LeeRay said, like when I was writing my dissertation, I came to contemplative practice because I could not get out of my own mind, right? We, we in the academy, we in higher ed, live in our minds and not in our bodies. And so in the review process. I had to go back to some of those practices during my grad school days, right? I had to go back to art therapy. I had to go back to taking long walks. I had to go back to sitting my pillow. I had to go back to Bourbon. Because

Keith Edwards
that’s, that’s the first time I’ve heard bourbon as a contemplative practice.

David W. Robinson-Morris
You savor it. Yes, that’s great. I also learned joy, right? Like joy working with these two people who are deeply heartful and very thoughtful and full of joy and community, but I could not imagine doing this with any one else but Michelle and LeeRay.

Keith Edwards
Well, that’s coming through today. Michelle, how about you? What do you learn, relearn or unlearn? Through this whole three year process,

Michelle Chatman
I learned that this will likely be the the only edited volume I ever do. It was it was it was beautiful. It was hard work. I learned that I am not the time keeper, organized person that is totally LeeRay Costa. She is amazing at it. She kept the train running. Yeah, I’m the one who will entertain on the train after we get on, I am there. I will sit with you. I’ll laugh with you, I’ll go get you coffee. But I’m I’m, yeah. Uhm, it was just a beautiful experience. I feel so deeply grateful to our contributors who wrote very personal narratives. I mean, you know, it’s narrative. They they really bared themselves with folks. Some of them didn’t know us, right? Not everyone we knew from the Center for contemplative mind and society, some folks took a chance on us, and there were many essays that we did not choose. So that tells me that there are lots of folks out there who want to tell their stories, who want to share their narratives about how they came to practice and how they are trying to live as fully and as holy as they possibly can in these times, and we, I think we need more space for them.

Keith Edwards
Well, I don’t know this is maybe unrelated to our topic, but the thing I’m taking away is that maybe, maybe editing a book is like, love. It sounds easy, like you didn’t even write anything. All these other people did. Well, then try it. Great. LeeRay, what did you learn, really?

LeeRay Costa
I mean, now that you brought up love. I mean, there’s so much love in this book. There’s so much love in our conversations, in our reflections and thinking about how to give feedback to folks and be I mean, I think I learned a lot about holding space in a different way, not in a physical presence way, but in this textual back and forth way, holding space for for folks to share these stories and to communicate that for others, which is really powerful. I learned a lot as a white woman reading many of these stories by folks who, you know, don’t have the same privileges that I have. And you know, as someone who’s been a scholar and been, you know, reading and learning about the experience of marginalized and oppressed groups for years, I will never know enough. I will never fully understand, and each story gives me more perspective and more compassion, and changes the way that I show up in the world. And so that was a lot of learning. And, yeah, I mean, this process of editing together. I mean, these two folks are just such beautiful souls, and I think I show up in my Okay, let’s get things done. I’ve got the ABC, that’s what we have to do. And then, you know, Michelle or David opens their mouth and outcomes, poetry, mm, outcomes, spirit and heartfulness. And it just allowed me to sink into that in a way that I think a lot of our higher ed spaces don’t make space for, don’t allow for, and that is super powerful. That just shifts the way that I think I’m able to show up in the world. So thank you both so much for that and and to all of our contributors, too. Yeah,

Keith Edwards
we’ve been very well miseducated, right? And that that unlearning is is so key in so many different ways. This is a joy, but we are running out of time. We always like to end with this question. Podcast is called Student Affairs now. So what are you thinking, troubling or pondering now? Might be these days, might be right now, in this moment. And also, if you want to share where folks can connect with you, please do so. LeeRay, what’s with you now?

LeeRay Costa
Okay, two things right now, I’m just pondering if and how higher ed survives, and what does it look like. And it’s that simultaneous danger and possibility, right, and imagination that David’s speaking to. And so I’m thinking a lot about that. You know, a lot of folks said COVID was the moment, but maybe now is really the moment. You know, COVID was preparing us for this moment. So I think a lot about that. And then the second thing I think a lot about now that I’m doing much more work in the leadership space, is I recently did a training on Compassionate Leadership. And so for me, Compassionate Leadership and contemplative practices go hand in hand. So I’m thinking a lot about how to bring contemplative practices into that leadership space, into leadership pedagogy, working with folks across sectors. So that’s what’s on my mind right now. Awesome,

Keith Edwards
David, I feel like you might be troubling. Now. Is that possible?

David W. Robinson-Morris
You know? What am I thinking about? I’m thinking about lots of things. I’m thinking about how, how do I transform righteous rage into conscious action in ways that are not destructive to my own being and to my health? How do you sit with that anger and use it as a tool of transformation? I’m thinking about my friends in student affairs. Actually, I have many, and they, I don’t know how they do the work they do on a on a daily basis, right? I often say that student affairs folks are are Sherpas of human becoming, right? They are guiding the. These little humans into big humans, into humans who will go out into the world. But what world will those humans inherit? Is the is the question, and how are we preparing them to move into a world that’s completely different from the world that we inherit? And how, how are they taking care of themselves? In the process, I’m thinking about revolution, which is always grounded in love, and how, how we engage our imaginations to resist oppression, right? The first thing to go in your oppressive system is the imagination. First thing we have to get back. How are we using our imaginations to project a new future and new possibilities that are full of healing and liberation and hope?

David W. Robinson-Morris
And my final thing that I’m thinking about is I’m trying to find a polite way to say this, right? But how do we give the middle finger to anything, to anything that diminishes our humanity or that dampens our human spirit, and make sure that we are living the fullest form of resistance is living into your fullness, right? So, how do we live into that? It’s not taking to the street always. It’s not doing those things, but it’s living into the fullness of who you are and then forcing the world to deal with you, right? And if they don’t like it, saying, you know, go away. Yeah, that’s what I am.

Keith Edwards
Well, I hear echoes of La Mirada Owens, who I heard speak at ACPA in February, and it was worth the price of admission and travel and hotel and everything, just to hear his words there about anger into compassion. And I’m changing my business card to say Sherpa of human becoming that sounds that’s great. That’s why I want to get up and do that every day. Michelle, I’m so glad we get to give you the last word, oh

Michelle Chatman
boy that you might not stick with that. Um, I am thinking of a number of things. I’m thinking of Harriet Tubman, 172 years ago today, she made the first trip to freedom with enslaved African people, and I am calling in that radical spirit of imagination for all of us that we really boldly dream what is possible for us and for our students that we love so much and our colleagues that we love so much. How do we really get free together? What are the radical acts that we can take? I’m also thinking of a theory of wholeness that I’m actually working on. Uh, I’ve been wondering if perhaps our CO edited volume is if embedded within it is a theory around wholeness. And so for now, I’ve named that theory brimac. I’m in DC. You know, we love a what do you call that thing? Where an acronym, we love an acronym, right? So, so I’m working on that, and I’m thinking of our upcoming session on April 16, our virtual session that we invite all of you to. We’ll be talking about the book and hearing from more of our contributors, and practicing together and and laughing and smiling together and holding each other virtually as we move through these times.

Keith Edwards
Great, great. Well, maybe that theory of wholeness might be something the three of you write, rather than an edited volume, as we’ve learned today, and we when you haven’t run your release to the world, we would love to have you back on and talk to talk about that. Thanks to each of you for being here. I so appreciate everything that you’ve gifted us today and through this volume and to your work. Really appreciate each of you and your leadership in this space. I also want to thank sponsors of today’s episode, Evolve and Huron. If you are a leader, a higher ed senior leader who is knowledgeable and deeply committed to transformational leadership, yet, as we talked about today, find yourself unsure and not always as effective as you could be. Evolve is a program I lead, along with doctors, Brian Rau and Don Lee, helping senior leaders release fear, gain courage and take transformative action to unleash your leadership for social change. Evolve is a three month, three month virtual experience, combining on demand modules, personalized coaching and powerful group sessions. Visit us to learn how you can be a part of our next cohort, or talk with us about evolve for your senior leadership team. And Huron collaborates with colleges and universities to create sound strategies optimize operations and accelerate digital transformation by. Tracing diverse perspectives, encouraging new ideas and challenging the status quo. Huron promotes institutional resilience in higher education. You can visit them at go.hcg.com/now. As always, a huge shout out to our producer, Nat Ambrosey, who makes us all look and sound good behind the scenes. And we love the support of all of you for these important conversations. You can help us reach even more folks by subscribing on YouTube to the podcast or to our newsletter, where we share the latest episodes each Wednesday morning. As I mentioned, we’re also sharing current campus context, which we record almost live and release on Thursday evening. You might find them on Friday morning. I’m Keith Edwards, thanks to our fabulous guests today and to everyone who’s watching make it a great week. Thank you all.

Contemplative Practices in Higher Education: Powerful methods to transform teaching and learning, by Daniel Barbezat and Mirabai Bush. Jossey-Bass, 2014.

https://www.bethberila.com/podcast/coming-home-to-our-wholeness-practices-for-justice-in-higher-education-with-michelle-c-chatman-david-w-robinson-morris-and-leeray-costa

Healing Higher Education Series, The Center for Contemplative Mind in Society