Adam R. Cebulski
So one way that I have heard about it from a visual perspective is to think about a Swiss army knife, where the Chief of Staff has so many different skill sets and tools at their disposal. And they’re in all aspects of the organization. Right. So on some campuses, you may be talking about an operations leader. In some cases, you might have sort of the core or central functions underneath you like assessment, marketing, HR, finance, fundraising. They’re really people who are agnostic in terms of a functional area loyalty, because they’re really thinking about the division. They really get that 30,000 foot view, there are good relationship builders, and there are folks who overall can understand and translate the vision of a principle to action in the organization.

Keith Edwards
Hello, and welcome to Student Affairs NOW I’m your host Keith Edwards. Today I’m joined by two folks who have served in and thought about the chief of staff role. This role in and beyond Student Affairs often falls under the radar varies widely and can be both misunderstood and full of promise. Thank you both for being here to share with us about your experience and your insights. Student Affairs NOW is the premier podcast and online learning community for 1000s of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays find details about this episode, or browse our archives at studentaffairsnow.com. Today’s episode is sponsored by Huron, a global professional services firm that collaborates with clients to put possible into practice. And today’s episode is also sponsored by Symplicity. A true partner Symplicity supports all aspects of student life with technology platforms that empower institutions to make data driven decisions. As I mentioned, I’m your host, Keith Edwards, my pronouns are he him his. I’m a speaker, author and coach, and I help higher ed leaders and organizations make the complex uncomplicated for leadership, learning and equity. You can find out more about me at keithedwards.com. And I’m recording this from my home in Minneapolis, Minnesota, at the intersections of the ancestral and current homelands of both the Dakota and the Ojibwe peoples. I’m excited to have our guests today. Let’s hear a little bit more about each of you and Lesley Ann, we’re going to start with you.

Lesley-Ann Brown-Henderson
Right Hello, everyone. My name is Lesley-Ann Brown-Henderson, I use she her pronouns. I work at Northwestern University. I’ve been here for 12 years. And I am Chief of Staff here. So my official title is assistant vice president and chief of staff and student affairs.

Keith Edwards
Great, thanks for being here. And Adam, let’s hear a little bit more about you.

Adam R. Cebulski
Thank you very much. My name is Adam Cebulski. I use he him his pronouns. I am the CEO and founder of a strategy consulting and executive coaching company called Transform dot forward, I spent over 20 years on college campuses and in the EdTech space, holding the chief of staff role in a variety of organizations. So this is a topic near and dear to my heart.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, awesome. Thank you both for being here. I’m excited to hear from you. I shared with you both. I have had four conversations in the past two weeks with people about the chief of staff role, should they think about it what it is include, both within student affairs and outside Student Affairs in Higher Ed and also outside higher ed in the nonprofit and other sectors. And so I keep mentioning this to folks, as I think it’s a really exciting possibility for many student affairs folks who have sort of that eclectic skill set.

Keith Edwards
And then are looking for a right match for that skill set. So you’ve both served in the role. And you’ve both thought a lot about this not just your own role, but thought about this role a little bit more broadly. How would you try and define this? Maybe it goes by other titles. Lesley Ann, you mentioned Assistant Vice President and Chief of Staff, I also hear assistant to the vice president or assistant to the president. How would you kind of try and define this? Adam, since you’re going to kick us off here, since you’ve been consulting and thinking about this and see lots of different permutations? How would you begin to try and define this?

Adam R. Cebulski
So one way that I have heard about it from a visual perspective is to think about a Swiss army knife, where the Chief of Staff has so many different skill sets and tools at their disposal. And they’re in all aspects of the organization. Right. So on some campuses, you may be talking about an operations leader. In some cases, you might have sort of the core or central functions underneath you like assessment, marketing, HR, finance, fundraising. They’re really people who are agnostic in terms of a functional area loyalty, because they’re really thinking about the division. They really get that 30,000 foot view, there are good relationship builders, and there are folks who overall can understand and translate the vision of a principle to action in the organization. There’s a chiefly Chief of Staff podcast recently, and one of the things that they mentioned on the last episode was about the idea that a chief of staff helps their principal focus on the business instead of being in the business. And that’s really where I think that Chief of Staff role excels and comes into place.

Keith Edwards
I think that’s a really great way of thinking about it. Functional agnostics sort of spreading across lots of these different realms. And it’s interesting to hear you talk about having some core responsibilities there. Lesley Ann, what would you add Adam was brief and concise. Great. John, would you add to fill this in a little bit more?

Lesley-Ann Brown-Henderson
Well, first, I would echo everything that Adam just said, what I would add is maybe an element of trust. So maybe more values based, I think that a chief of staff needs to be able to build trust up and down and across the organization, be able to reach out and reach in and support its Prince their principal, right in every way. So both from preventing them from stepping into landmines, perhaps, or things that they can’t see here. Because the Chief of Staff may know, some of the history or some of the context that they don’t know. Be a strategic thinker with them. So be a truth teller. So again, trust being able to say like, there’s no way I’ve said to my principal, there’s no way she Your name should be on that, whatever it is, you know, like, There’s no way. So how can we get you out of that, and being honest in those ways, if there are behaviors that the principals haven’t does, and it has a negative, it’s feeling negative, or has a negative connotation amongst the staff, it’s my responsibility to let that person know. And it’s also my responsibility in some ways to help the staff understand, right, so it’s both and kind of going back and forth. So I think a core function is to be a truth teller, but also to build trust throughout the unit with your principal, and certainly with the staff and students.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, I’m seeing that unidirectional arrow, right. I tell the truth this way. And I tell the truth, this way, I help understand perspective this way. And this way. You’re talking about very functional things. I also knew a chief of staff who would often walk around with the President. And when the President was about to meet someone, she would whisper. This is Keith Edwards, he and his wife had a baby six months ago, though, blah, blah, blah. And he was like, oh, Keith, how you doing? How’s the baby? Like an adult Wears Prada? Yeah, I felt so I felt so special. And then I started doing with others. And I was like, oh, and then I thought, no, that’s really great. This is something that is outside of this person’s capacity to know all of these people. And and well, while the President was focused on other things, in the substance of the conversation, helping with those relationships and connections, and in doing some of those things, as I mentioned, we hear assistant to the VP are Assistant to the President or chief of staff or a VP roles. Are there other names and language that comes along with this?

Lesley-Ann Brown-Henderson
Yeah, I’ve heard, like Assistant Vice President for strategy. There’s a lot of like, or Director of Strategy for an office. What else? What else? Have you heard? Adam.

Adam R. Cebulski
So like, right now with a couple of my coaching clients who are in chief of staff roles, like we see Senior Advisor, you see, Assistant Vice President for Strategic Initiatives, special projects. What’s interesting about the title is that oftentimes, that Chief of Staff title appears to be very political. And in some institutions, it’s very much only the president can have a chief of staff or we don’t use that title. So here’s the alternative, like a senior advisor. And I see that more than I see that with other titles. And I think part of that comes with the historical connotations around military and political aspects of the Chief of Staff origin. But I feel like it’s one of those titles where we see so much diversity in that representation. And Leslie, I think it’d be interesting if you talked a little bit about the NASPA group and sort of, like the name of how to encompass all of these titles. Yes.

Lesley-Ann Brown-Henderson
So we have a new steering group in NASPA, and it’s called the strategic administrative operations and executive advisory roles.

Keith Edwards
I’m trying to come up with the acronym did, is there an acronym or is it?

Lesley-Ann Brown-Henderson
No, it’s like all the letters put together. Steering Committee, and it’s very long, but we couldn’t figure out something else that was succinct that captured all like the multitude of roles and responsibilities that a Chief of Staff has, and we were not able to use the words or the language of Chief of Staff. So we then decided to use descriptors, right, what are key functions of the Chief of Staff?

Keith Edwards
Yeah, I think that’s a that’s a great point about the military origins and also in reference to indigeneity functions and not appropriating language. I’m also seeing one of the things I’ve seen, particularly on my work with curricular approach is folks who are directors of assessment. We’re sort of doing the back end assessment, the results part then start being involved in the learning outcomes and sort of the pre end and then that ends up sort of being a system vice president and strategic initiatives or learning or engagement or things like that. The other thing you’re both reminding me of is kind of having an internal coach, someone who can say, hey, just so you know, in that meeting, when you were doing that thing, I saw half the room just shut down. And so we might need to think about a different metaphor, we might need to think about a different thing here. Anything else coming up for you? Before we move to our next question, oh, it just kind of flushing out the definitions and what it can and can’t be. I think one of the things I’m often careful of, particularly when I’m talking to folks who want to transition is sometimes this can be sort of a senior administrative assistant role. And that might be great for some people, but usually, the folks I’m talking to that’s not what they’re looking for. And so being clear what really is the job? And oftentimes, I find that a little bit hard to hear, because they can be written up and described in the job description similarly, but how is this person actually going to use this as a, as an internal coach, as an advisor, as someone who goes to the meetings they can’t go to? Or is this someone who assist them with emails and schedules and things like that?

Lesley-Ann Brown-Henderson
Yeah, one of the things I think a lot about is that I need to have the authority of my principal to be able to do my work, right, depending on what that work is, but I am not the principal. So I tell my, my principal all the time, I am not interested in being you at all. But I am here to serve the division and to serve our students and at times, I need your authority to be able to move some things forward. Right. And I think that’s one differentiator is to be able to act with the authority as the Vice President, or vice chancellor or senior student affairs officer, but not being that person.

Adam R. Cebulski
Yeah, I think that’s a great point. So when I talk with senior leaders about, you know, they’re thinking about developing a chief of staff role, I always make them read, there’s a Harvard Business Review article called The Case for a Chief of Staff. And it outlines specifically levels of Chief of Staff, and what those responsibilities and autonomy look like. And I think the folks who write a job description that is essentially a glorified EA, don’t really understand the true ability that a chief of staff can bring. If I’m ever coaching somebody, and their principal is asking them to like book travel or do some of those things. Part of what I try to say is like, can you have a developmental conversation managing up about what you could be doing, that their administrative or executive assistant could be doing instead? And thinking more about how do we really professionalize the idea of a chief of staff. And then it’s not just about a title, there’s a meaning behind what a chief of staff does. And as Lesley Ann said, that’s acting as an extension of your principal. It’s not just a support style, administrative kind of role.

Lesley-Ann Brown-Henderson
Yeah. And let let me be clear, because I’m sure Adam would say this, too. I am so grateful for our administrative staff, right, like things that they do and the things that they’re able to move on behalf of my principal, me the office is so so very important. But our roles are different. And I think that’s,

Keith Edwards
Yeah, well, we’re starting to get into our next question, which is, how might you encourage folks to look at these roles, and how they maybe are misunderstood, and the promise. So I’m thinking about some of the folks that I’ve been talking to, oftentimes, they don’t really know about this role. As we said, they didn’t do a paper on this and roll in grad school when they did roll on everything else. How are some of these roles being misunderstood? We’ve talked about a couple of the ways, and what’s the real promise that you see in them?

Adam R. Cebulski
I think one thing that initially comes to mind about a misunderstanding or just a lack of awareness of how do you what is the career trajectory to a chief of staff. And I think one of the nice things about a chief of staff role is that it’s not a one size fits all career trajectory, you could come from a very student facing role and eventually end up in a chief of staff role. Or like you mentioned, Keith, around the director of assessment, somebody who’s been very much operationally focused, and want to move into that Chief of Staff role. I think what’s interesting is we are seeing the collegiate experience change in our student needs change. We are seeing people becoming a little bit more disenfranchised with the idea of being a dean of students or vice president for student affairs. Initially, when I was in my graduate program that was sort of everyone’s dream of, that’s the role I’m going to get to. And now we’re seeing people do a lot more critical discernment about their own career trajectory and what they want to spend their day doing. And it may not be that Vice President role, but it’s being that Chief of Staff role. My last vice president and I used to joke that he was great externally in terms of all of the Navigating the relationships and the donors and the you know, all of the fanfare, I used to always joke like the lots of the kissing hands and kissing babies and shaking hands. And for me, that’s not what filled my cup. I loved thinking at a systems level and improving things, and really strategizing around the relationships and the dynamics. And so I think it’s also about choosing what complements your principal. And I think there are so many ways from a career perspective that you can do that, where it doesn’t rely on having experience in a single functional area. And I actually would conjecture to say that you benefit from having exposure to a lot of functional areas, because you end up having to learn so much about all of them.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, I think that’s one of the things that’s appealing to me is, you know, I’m someone who’s curious about so many things, and interested in so many functions, and being able to dabble in a lot of these and go from thing to thing to thing, I think for some people would be really exhausting for me, is super energizing. Lesley Ann what are you seeing that maybe is misunderstood? And maybe what’s some of the promise you see in this role?

Lesley-Ann Brown-Henderson
Yeah, I’ll start just by saying that, you know, I went to a master’s program in higher ed. And I certainly wasn’t thinking like, my ultimate goal is to become a chief of staff. Um, I, my background is very much in diversity, equity and inclusion. And I think most people put me on one of two trajectories similar to what Adam is saying, right, Vice President of Student Affairs Sunday, or chief diversity officer was somewhat of the other. And neither of those appealed to me. And for lots of different reasons, including I have three small kids at home, and I’m navigating life as a young parent, right parent with a young family.

Lesley-Ann Brown-Henderson
And after I had my second child, I remember starting to think about like, I’ve been in my role for some time. And what other things might I be interested in doing? So I kind of revisited the VPSA piece, and I said, well, not now. Definitely, now. And for, for whatever reason, chief of staff came to my mind at that time, I had known three people in Student Affairs who had gone on to be Chiefs of Staff to presidents of universities, and I did some informational, interviewing with them, and learned a lot. And then about nine months later, an opportunity came up for me, and it was exactly in this area. So maybe answering the promise piece, I think the promise is that, right now we’re seeing a lot of interest in the role. And the promise is that you don’t necessarily need one. It’s not a functional area, right? It’s not like you’re moving from student activities, to student activities director to the next to the next. There are lots of tools that you need in your toolkit to be successful. And you can get those tools in lots of different ways. So I think that’s promising for a lot of people who feel like I’m not on an upward trajectory to a particular place, right. But I like what I’m doing what I’m doing it and I kind of listen for my life to speak and say, Okay, it’s time to transition to the next thing. And what might that next thing be?

Lesley-Ann Brown-Henderson
One of my favorite quotes is by Steve Jobs, and he says, you can only connect the dots looking back. And I think for me, that’s certainly how I think about how I got to this role. My PhD is in counseling psychology, my functional area was in the diversity, equity, inclusion and justice space, my current principal, her two priorities, our mental health and well being in the right, like it just happens to be that way. And across the country. That’s what people are looking at right now. So 20 years ago, I couldn’t have imagined that that’s where higher education would be, and my skill sets would be so valuable at this time. So that’s, I think, some of the promise, what how is it misunderstood? I think what you were saying before that, you know, it’s some use it as an EA, maybe an executive assistant or some towards some type of assistant. I think the role could be underutilized. I think also, the role I said, I mentioned trust before, but I think it requires ego check by both the principal and the Chief of Staff, right the person in the role.

Lesley-Ann Brown-Henderson
Because I think the principal has to understand that they can’t be everywhere all the time. And they have to trust this person to be able to step in on their behalf or to meet with the other assistant vice president or to do whatever to keep things moving. While we’re prioritizing the principles time in the most impactful way. But there is a letting go. There’s a trust and there’s a you can’t be all things all people and I think there’s a little bit of a ego check that a principal needs to be able to do for themselves to be able to have a chief of staff and the same with the person, right? The person is not the principal, you are not, you are not the principal. And later on, I can tell him example about when I’ve really had to think about that. And when I rubbed up against some of that for myself, because it’s, I think it’s easy to do, and I’m a person who doesn’t tend to have a whole lot of ego going into things.

Keith Edwards
So well, I want to hear that story. But let me just say a couple of things, because I think you might connect with with them. But I’m thinking about is, I’m thinking about balancing alignment versus complementary, not praising, but like, sharing different skill sets. So for folks thinking about this, where are you looking for principle, who you’re really in alignment with? was shared vision really connect with really vibe with versus where are you looking for principle where you bring something really different than that, what they bring, I can see both of value. And then I’m also seeing the balance of a commitment to the, the individual in the leadership role. Yeah.

Keith Edwards
And then also, I’m hearing from both of you a commitment to the institution, sort of above the individual. So having the balance my loyalty to this person, and some ways above the institution, and at the same time, sort of a loyalty to the institution in some ways about the individual and, and navigating that, that nuance and paradox. I love complexity, but I don’t like it when it’s complicated. So, does that connect with your story in any way?

Lesley-Ann Brown-Henderson
Um, I think it does. So what’s your story, and maybe you all can tell me, um, so one of the things that I do in my role is I help to support one of our committees on the board of trustees, and board of trustee meetings, I’m at a private institution. So things are pretty locked down, right? Like it’s very tight. I’m getting into meetings, getting being able to go to certain meetings. So there’s a lot dinners, lunches, like, all of that is pretty locked down. And in one year, I served three different principals. And that’s another story that we can talk about. But in between, because we were in transition, I was allowed to go to all the board meetings, and I found that really helpful to be able to strategize afterwards with my principal. And once we transition to a permanent vice president, and they were in place, those opportunities to be engaged that to that degree changed me and I found myself feeling very frustrated by that, particularly because there were others who held the same title that were allowed to write. So there was some of that, for me, I think was about us being in student affairs. Some of that may have been around gender and race playing out, right. Like, I have lots of questions about why. But I found myself really getting stirred up about being not having the access. And as I was prepping my principal, I really had to stop myself. And I said, What is my role? My role is not to necessarily be in the room, although I think I deserve to be there, my role is to make sure that my principal is prepared to be in that room. Right. So that was my own ego check in that moment. And I was able to say, All right, so here’s how we can pivot. And we have fundraiser fundraising is under me with in collaboration with my principal, and there’s a lot of fundraising that happens at these events, right? So how do I use the in between times to do some of that work if I don’t have access to the actual space. So I just think I had to really rethink, set myself straight on like, actually, here’s your purpose, you’re not the principal. So the principal is supposed to be here, then your role is to make sure that they’re prepared to be in that space, and then do some work in the in between.

Keith Edwards
So that’s imagining that as there was change and new principles and interim principles that your status sort of elevated, yep, to sort of be more CO equal. And then when there is a new permanent person in place, then that sort of shifted back and, obviously, jarring for you. But I can see how that can make sense. It also seems like someone with a real servant leadership mindset, again, both to the institution and to the principal, is pretty pretty key here.

Adam R. Cebulski
The other thing that Leslie’s comments and her story highlight is that more so than most other positions, you can be an AVP and have to think critically about the relationship with your supervisor. But at a chief of staff level, it’s a whole different depths. Right? That relationship with their principal is the core tenet of your role as you are acting as an extension of them as you are supporting them. And that dynamic is you mentioned, Keith, about complementary skills for similar skills becomes really important. And I think oftentimes, when you’re thinking about transitions in your principal, there is much more of a reflection period when that new person is coming on board, then an AVP. Not to say that that supervisory relationship isn’t important. But if I’m going to be an extension of somebody and have to think about the ways in which I complement the skills that maybe they don’t have that dynamic is way more important and way more complex than just will I have a good supervisor in the incoming person who’s going to be in that principal role. And Leslie and I, and then I both share the three principles within one year mindset. And every time you’re thinking about what is my experience going to look like? Because they literally make or break that experience? Are you?

Keith Edwards
Yeah, yeah, it was interesting, because I think this appeals to people who find a leader they really admire, or find an institution they’re really committed to. And then you put yourself in this to serve that. And then when change happens, you might find yourself more at the whims of those winds of change, that maybe you would in another role, where you’re the Director of Student Activities.

Adam R. Cebulski
And you might find that they take they want to take you with you to a new opportunity. And that’s a diff. That’s different, I think, then we think about traditionally with a vice president for student affairs and some of their other direct reports. Yeah.

Lesley-Ann Brown-Henderson
Yeah. To answer your question about alignment, I think that there has to, for me, there needs to be values alignment. And that’s important. And our styles like me, and my current principals, our styles are pretty different. There’s some similarities, but we’re fairly different people. And I think we bring out the best in each other. She hasn’t been at the University for a year yet. So I’m still we’re still getting to know each other, right. But I definitely feel like there are valid there’s value alignment. And that’s really important, because both for and you mentioned institution, but I also think the division, right, and sometimes we think here, like big institution, you think you’re small team, but then there’s the division, which operates obviously, within the institution, but a little bit separate from, and I feel very committed to our division. I have this event called or this lunch and called Lunch with Lesley Ann. Every month where I random assortment of staff, we have lunch, and we just kind of talk and one of the things that I like to say to our team and Student Affairs is that I am definitely our principals, Chief of Staff, but I’m each of their chief of staff too. And that is really important for me to say to them and for them to hear from me. And my loyalty is to them as well. Right. And, and I think that that’s part of the role that’s part of the job of a successful Chief of Staff, I think, is again, building trust, not only with your principal, but with all your your colleagues and everyone else in the division and certainly our students in student affairs who’s our, our heart and soul.

Adam R. Cebulski
Yeah, I think that brings up an interesting dynamic is you think about that relationship building and being the Chief of Staff for others, especially with the principals, senior leadership team, right? So you want to make it clear, like, I’m not trying to be your boss, I’m not trying to replace that. There are ways in which I can help you be better with your supervisor, whether that’s talking through an idea or giving you feedback that I know that they’re going to give to you based on this proposal. And so really getting people to not see you as competition, or somebody trying to be have an overinflated ego but more as a partner, and how you can better support that because oftentimes, a chief of staff role does have an element of gatekeeping to it. And I think it depends on how well you navigate that of what kind of gatekeeping that feels like and whether that feels like a positive experience for people or an ego trip.

Lesley-Ann Brown-Henderson
Yeah, there’s a book, a chief of staff book called The gatekeeper. And I read it and one of the things that I can’t remember who talked about is the spokes of the bird of the wheel, spokes of the wheel, right? So the principals in the middle and everyone has equal access to the principal. And this person ends up saying like, that doesn’t work. It just doesn’t work. And part of our role as gatekeepers at least I like to think about it, it’s not only keeping people out, but it’s making sure that you have time in right so I am trying to think about, oh, this person hasn’t had a one on one in three weeks. Let me make sure that they get in because these things are going on, or you need this time so let’s make sure you get in and but then that means this person is not going to be able to get in at the same time. Right? So some of the gatekeeping is really maybe juggling, right like how am I juggling people having access to the principal without wearing the principal out and also making sure that the things that need to get to them or getting to them, and if there are other places that I can help or divert to other places, then let me do that. So that then you can bring these five things on your agenda to our principal versus having an agenda of 10 things, right? Like, let’s work on these five together, and then these five, you definitely should bring them to the principal. And here’s some things to think about. And that way you’re they’re maximizing their time with, with our principal.

Adam R. Cebulski
Yeah. And I think that also, when we think about Vice Presidents for Student Affairs, oftentimes they are wanting to meet with as many people as they can and take that student meeting. And it’s our job to help them understand. That’s not maybe the best use of your time, let’s talk about how to prioritize. And that’s where the relationship between the Chief of Staff and the executive assistant is so important, and why you’ll often see the vice president’s chief of staff supervising directly the executive assistant, because they’re a team in navigating that front office and thinking about how should time be spent? And what does that access look like? And how do we juggle those multiple responsibilities? Because I think oftentimes, our principals underestimate the amount of time that they’ll be in meetings, and they still have other stuff to do. And we got to make sure to help protect that time with their EAA so that they can do those things, and figure out when that thing shouldn’t be on their plate at all, and it needs to be delegated elsewhere.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, well, it’s no surprise to me that we’re talking about partnerships and collaboration and working cohesively I didn’t see the juggling metaphor coming up multiple times. But here we are. Here we are. I’m thinking about. Adam, you were just speaking to maybe our audience who’s thinking about do I want a chief of staff or someone in this role? And what would that look like? I want to look at it from the other direction as well, maybe student affairs professionals who are thinking, is this the right for me? Is this the right move? How might you encourage folks to look at these roles, both from their organization and for themselves? For people who are considering or thinking about this? It? Might this be right for me? What What kind of, from your experiences? What kind of things would you encourage them to look forward to be wary of to be cautionary?

Adam R. Cebulski
I think one thing to keep in mind is that, again, we talked about the importance of that principle relationship. So not every chief of staff role is going to be the same across principals. And not every principal knows how to utilize the chief of staff. And so it’s not going to be as simple as Oh, you have a job description. And it’s going to be the same across organizations or divisions. I think the other thing that there has to be some element of a critical reflection because Leslie and hit this on the head of you can’t have an ego as a chief of staff. It’s not about you, it’s not about the spotlight, it’s about the organization and the division and making that better for everyone. And that’s hard for some people. Because oftentimes, you may be writing the best speech of your life, and it’s for your principal, right? It’s giving to others and giving to the organization to help everyone make those strategic priorities happen. So as people are thinking about it, you know, for some folks, like Lesley Ann mentioned, you want to move off, but you have other commitments outside of work that you want to balance, you don’t want to be going to programming in the same kind of way, you don’t want those same kind of off our commitments. And so I’m never gonna say that the chief of staff doesn’t have those. But it’s a different kind of environment, right? It’s more about probably crisis management than it is about going to this particular activity. Also, if you just have skills in operations and systems and and that’s really where you’re filling your cup. I mean, that’s a lot of what we do, we design process, we really think about engaging stakeholders. And so thinking about the things when I talk with folks about like, what fills your cup, in oftentimes, if those are falling into more of that operations and administration side, you might want to consider a Chief of Staff, if you also love that 30,000 foot view, but also have the skills and ability to get in the weeds when you have to. That’s great.

Adam R. Cebulski
Obviously, if you have a strategy mindset, oftentimes the Chief of Staff is responsible for owning the ongoing monitoring and maintenance of a division strategic plan. And so thinking about you, if you like that concept of the Chief Strategy Officer, oftentimes that’s put with the chief of staff role. So really thinking again, how do you like to spend your time what do you find to be the most rewarding? And if that’s more on the operation side, you might be good, a fit, good fit for the Chief of Staff?

Keith Edwards
Yeah, I’m thinking too about. I think this is less the case in student affairs because folks rise up from doing the work but I’m also thinking about the nonprofit sector. So it’s moving from higher ed to these roles in the nonprofit sector where it is quite common to find a visionary leader who can’t execute much. And so finding someone who you admire their vision, love, what they’re committed to love, hearing them speak, who can then behind the scenes can move those things to reality. And do some of that I think can be really powerful ways. And so I’ve seen a number of student affairs role folks move into these kinds of roles in the nonprofit sector, and other places and find them to be very rewarding.

Adam R. Cebulski
And those kinds of ways, wasn’t what we do, we’ll say, real quick get to that note, if you’re thinking about the chief of staff role in the corporate sector, that is a different kind of world. So oftentimes, we can see a Chief of Staff, whether it’s at the presidential level, or the vice presidential level, as a terminal position, right, some people will live out and retire out of a chief of staff role. In the corporate world, oftentimes, the Chief of Staff is seen as a stepping stone role.

Adam R. Cebulski
And it’s either rotation to get you exposure to multiple functional areas to end up being a functional leader, or it’s a stepping stone role to a Chief Operating Officer role. And so that’s where as we think about career trajectory, it’s not always going to look the same in the education space in the government space in the industry. And so you really have to think about like, they’re really discerning what you’re looking at when you’re looking at a job description. And going back to that Harvard Business Review article, like, what level are we talking here? And how long should I expect to spend in this role?

Keith Edwards
You reminded me of my master’s program, one of my mentors reminding us that the if you’ve been put in charge of special projects, you’re either on your way up, or on your way out. And it’ll be short lived, and you’ll be moving up in the world or you’re being moved. On the way out. Lesley Ann what would you offer folks who are beginning to think about this? Or maybe just ideating? Around this? What would you want them to pay attention to? As they’re exploring?

Lesley-Ann Brown-Henderson
One of my colleagues here at Northwestern said, I don’t know how you do your job. It’s just so many things. You know, like, I like this one thing, this is the one thing that I do. And you know, I’m working deep, but this is my my lane of sorts, and you’re like in all the lanes? So I think one thing is to know that about yourself, is that something that you’re going to like or not, for me, being in the chief of staff role, one thing I knew that was going to be important to me was still to have some of my own things, while I’m managing other people’s things, right, and, or my principals things. So what that looks like is I do supervise a number of staff or areas, I have marketing, communications, assessment and planning. Like I said, I work with fundraising. And I have the bookends of the experience. Now, the teams that do orientation and graduation. So that is currently my portfolio as well as managing the office of the VP. So I have things that are just mine that I need to be doing. And then I certainly have strategic initiatives, strategic priorities, and the every day, either or urgent, yes, the things that come up, and you’re like, Okay, I got it, I can do this. Um, so that’s one thing. I think the other thing that people need to think about is one of the things the tools that I use a lot in my work with my principal is I think, my counseling degree, like I tried to anticipate, I look for things that are not spoken either in the room or what’s not said, and how we can interpret those things. So it’s really being willing to pay attention, right, and to work with someone and to learn their idiosyncrasies, to learn their strengths, to learn the things that bother them, and to take note of those things, and use them to be able to help and support and help them be successful so that the division is successful. Right, everyone is successful. And certainly that success is for our students. So that’s another thing that I think you have to like doing or be not, and I don’t think you need a counseling degree to do that. Absolutely not. But I do think you, you need to be willing to do that. And then the last thing I’ll say, in addition to what Adams already said, is, you have to think, at a team one level, right? So when I’m in whatever room I’m in, I’m not just there for me. I’m actually not just there for my principal, I might be there for our Dean of Students like I’m thinking as something’s coming up, oh, this person needs to know that or I’m thinking, Oh, marketing comms. Like, I’m constantly thinking of connections, either partnerships, collaborations, or just connections that needs to be made so that things can move more smoothly, or more collaboratively together. Right and so in when I’m in a space, I’m often not just sitting there and thinking for my own benefit or for the benefit of the people that I supervise. But I’m certainly thinking like team one big division, everyone who needs to know what or who needs to be connected to whom. So that’s another piece of the work that I think is really important.

Adam R. Cebulski
And I think it to Lesley Ann’s point about this idea of you always have multiple things going on, you always have a parking lot of projects or a backburner of things you have to get to. And part of it is like, you have to have a regular and ongoing Eisenhower matrix in your mind, like, what’s critical and urgent, and how do I decipher some of those things, because part of that is you’re doing some of that decision making for your principal. And it’s not just about being given work. But it’s also about prioritizing and generating your own. I can’t tell you how many projects are because I was in a meeting like Lesley, I noticed and I and I noticed something. And I’m like, that’s a problem. Let’s fix it. And that becomes a project on my plate, then. Yeah, and oftentimes, we are also creating our own work because of having that initiative. And for some people, that’s exciting. And for some people, like that’s just not their jam. But that’s I feel like a core part of the chief of staff role that you’ve got to enjoy or at least be comfortable with to be successful.

Keith Edwards
Well, this has been great, I find it really interesting and intrigued and, and I’m super curious, but we are running out of time. And so we always like to close the podcast, it’s called Student Affairs NOW. So like to close with the question, what are you thinking, troubling or pondering now? And if folks want to connect with you? Where can they do that? So Lesley Ann let’s start with you, what are you troubling now.

Lesley-Ann Brown-Henderson
Um, so I’m looking at what’s happening across the country with the DI rolls, I just saw University of Florida on the news. I know what’s going on in lots of places. And for maybe this is a thought for my colleagues in that space. One of my favorite things about being Chief of Staff is that I again, get invited to places because I’m representing the division or our principal, but they never expect to get a DI person to. So I can bring I bring that lens to my all my work every conversation. And whether people like it or not, it’s it’s a part of what I bring. And because I’m in this role, I have a lot of access. So it tends to go far, or I can help a message from some of my team or colleagues who worked in that area, I can bridge it into those conversations. So I’m really thinking about my colleagues across the country in that functional area and wanting people to stay encouraged to know that your skill sets and the work and our students need you. And there’s lots of ways chief of staff might be one of them, and which you can engage and employ those skills. And that talent, because we certainly need you in the field.

Keith Edwards
Not having those DI things in the title, learn your role and your function. Sometimes you’re hurt in a very different way.

Lesley-Ann Brown-Henderson
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. So I still think the role is very those roles are very important. And my colleagues who are in those roles, please continue to do that work. But if this interests, you just know that this might be another avenue for you to use those skill sets. And if you’re interested in connecting with me, you can certainly email me lesleybrown@northwestern.edu. Or you can I wouldn’t send you to my Instagram because that’s more unless you’d like fitness and food and family. But is another good place or our LinkedIn? Yeah. Awesome.

Keith Edwards
Adam, what are you troubling now?

Adam R. Cebulski
I think what’s been interesting, we’re seeing a lot of conversations around, you know, the ROI of higher education and the increasing cost. And oftentimes the first positions on the chopping block for higher education or what’s considered overhead. And while on paper, a chief of staff role might seem like overhead, what it can contribute in return back to an organization is tenfold whatever that salary is going to be in the ability to prioritize their principal. And so really, as I think about senior leaders, thinking about making the decision to have a chief of staff, I’m really thinking about it beyond just the numbers and about the actual impact these roles can have. And so I know that those conversations are becoming more challenging as budgets get tighter as state allocations get reduced or, you know, donor dollars. We’re seeing struggling all over but really thinking about what else this can do for your organization because it can’t really can be a mission critical position. If folks are interested, I’m big on LinkedIn. So they’re welcome to connect. After the me just searching my name Adam Cebulski or checking out our website t.f.com.is spelled like the word dot transform dot forward. And we offer we can they can see all the things we offer including consulting and executive coaching and we do a lot within the Chief of Staff space.

Keith Edwards
Awesome. Well thank you both. For this. This has been great. I really appreciate your leadership in this space. And also want to thank our sponsors of today’s episode Huron and Symplicity. Huron is a global professional services firm that collaborates with clients to put possible into practice by creating sound strategies, optimizing operations, accelerating digital transformation, and empowering businesses and their people to own their future. By embracing diverse perspectives, encouraging new ideas and challenging the status quo Huron create sustainable results for organizations they serve. And Symplicity is the global leader in student services. This technology platforms with state of the art technology that empowers institutions to make data driven decisions specific to their goals. A true partner to the institutions Symplicity supports all aspects of student life, including but not limited to career services in development, Student Conduct and well being students access and accessibility services. To learn more, visit symplicity.com or connect with them on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn. As always, a huge shout out to our producer Nat Ambrosey who does all the behind the scenes work to make us look and sound good. And we love the support of these important conversations from our community. You can help us reach even more folks by subscribing, subscribe to our podcasts, subscribe on YouTube, and subscribe to our weekly newsletter announcing each new episode each Wednesday morning. If you’re so inclined, you can also leave us a five star review. It all helps us reach more folks. I’m Keith Edwards. Thanks to our fabulous guests today and to everyone who’s watching and listening. Make it a great week, everybody. Thank you.

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