Marium Mohiuddin
And that, you know, we’re also bringing not just ourselves and our education and our work, but our families and our history. And then as accent I am the token Muslim here, but get me and what I represent and who I am and, and so there’s a lot that we’re coming into. And then that’s one thing I appreciate is that I just, as I mentioned, I just can’t hide much back to being a terrible poker player. But and so I appreciate that Zack doesn’t ask me to he never. And that when we’re having this, it’s almost that like, he gives me space to even get teary eyed or, or talk about things or stumble through conversations, because it’s just not it’s not an easy place to be. And if we’re stumbling, we can really know how students and faculty and other people are feeling through this.

Keith Edwards
Welcome to Student Affairs now, I’m your host Keith Edwards. Today I’m joined by Marium Mohiuddin and Dr. Zack Ritter, who have been leading workshops on healing across the divides of anti semitism and Islamophobia. This is clearly so needed given what we are seeing in the world and on college campuses. I also hope that some of what they will share with us can bring us clarity in other areas where trauma, history, harm, anger, and hate may divide us. I’m really grateful for both of you being here for this conversation. I’ve been really looking forward to it. Student Affairs NOW is the premier podcast and online learning community for 1000s of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays find details about this episode, or browse our archives at studentaffairsnow.com. This episode, this episode is sponsored by Routledge and Taylor and Francis, view their complete catalogue of authoritative education titles at routledge.com/education. And this episode is also sponsored by LeaderShape. Go to leadershape.org to learn how they can work with you to create a just caring and thriving world. As I mentioned, I’m your host, Keith Edwards. My pronouns are he him his. I’m a speaker, author and coach helping higher ed leaders and organizations advanced learning, leadership inequity. You can find out more about me, Keith edwards.com. I’m usually broadcasting from my home in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Today, I’m in a different location in Colorado, at the intersections of the ancestral and current homelands of the ute, Cheyenne, and Arapaho peoples. Marium and Zack, thank you so much for being here. Let’s get to the conversation. I’d love for you to introduce yourselves a little bit more, and we’re going to start with you Marium.

Marium Mohiuddin
Great, thank you for having us on today. So my name is Marium Mohiuddin. And you got my name right, thank you. I am I like to say that I’m a Texan. But I have to admit to that I’m a Canadian, and I was born in Canada, raised in Texas, and now living in LA, I think it’s important to mention those because it really explains who I am. And how I even come to this conversation and how much my background has shaped who I am. My family is. I’m first generation my family’s from Pakistan. And I’ve been doing I’ve been in the communications industry for about 25 plus years, started off as a journalist. Actually, I came to the newsroom one month before 911 happened. So that was very interesting in my development in my career and who I am as a Muslim American. And, and I guess I should say that too, I’m born and raised Muslim, my family is, I wouldn’t say a little bit more conservative, but extremely liberal as well. We live in this dichotomy of the hat. And I’ve been active in about 10 years ago, I did a fellowship, which I must give credit to, which is called new ground, a Muslim Jewish partnership for change, which has essentially just changed my life. And I started doing a lot of Muslim Jewish dialogue from there. And it’s been about a decade, working in this space, and really being able to train under so many different leaders and rabbis to come to where I am today. And, you know, not not hoping that anything like this would ever happen. I am thankful that I can be part of this conversation and hopefully bring any kind of ease to anybody that’s hurting right now.

Keith Edwards
I love it. And I think one of the themes that I’ve been thinking a lot about is how we break free from either or binaries and embrace the both and complexity in your intro Canadian, Texas, Pakistan, LA, like a family that is both conservative and also liberal at the same time. So I think that’s that’s really great. Zack, tell us a little bit more about you.

Zack Ritter
Hey, everybody, so happy to be here. Thank you. It’s an honor. Zack Ritter he him his. I am from LA. My father was born in a refugee camp in Bavaria and Germany. And that’s where you get Bavarian Motorworks BMW. And so we’ll get into that. But growing up, the shadow of the Holocaust was always ever present in my upbringing, and just like what humans can do to each other, in a very terrible way. And then what we can do to help be liberatory towards each other, I think is also the lesson there. My grandparents were in Auschwitz, from Poland and Austria and so I got really interested in learning about history in Europe. And learning about history is a The world and then the intersections of you know how the Jewish Holocaust intersects with the Black Holocaust, Native American Holocaust and learning about these, these these histories so that we can do the kind of the Jesse Jackson Rainbow Coalition thing of moving forward together in a progressive way. The last I don’t know, I’m getting old. But the last like 12 years, I’ve been in a mixture of higher education, doing DEIJ work. Being a part time professor at UCLA at Cal State Dominguez Hills. Currently, I served as a senior Diversity Officer at Cal State Dominguez Hills. And I also did a couple of years in Jewish nonprofits. So, and I’m also a product of new ground. So yes, shout out to new ground who brought together and connected me with Muslim and Jewish friends that I’m not sure I’d ever connect with, if not for them. And what brought me to that work was also a love story. And I was in love with someone who was East African and Muslim. And, and she was like, Well, if we ever get married, I want you to say the Shahada. And I had no idea what that was. And so I needed to learn and I needed to be with, with folks to grow my knowledge of, of different cultures and religions. So that’s a little bit of who I am. And then I’m sure more will be revealed about ourselves as we as we go on.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, and more both. And as you share your story, and you reminded me of Valerie cowher, talking about I spent my first 20 years organizing around hate, I don’t want to spend the next 20 years organizing around love, and sort of your your entry into this being a little story is really wonderful. Well, let’s, let’s get all of us on the screen here together and talk about this. You know, we’ve been wanting to do some things on this particular topic, and sort of around this topic and connection to other things, and really trying to figure out the right way to do it. To offer healing and dialogue and understanding and complexity. And so really great, glad to connect with both of you. And I think your intro show exactly why. Super recently, like you both said, You’ve been doing this for a long time. Super recently, you’ve both been leading workshops together around this topic, in addition to the more broad work you’ve been doing for decades. What are you learning what it is what is really coming up for you about bridging divides between Jews and Muslims? Right here right now.

Marium Mohiuddin
So I was talking to my younger sister last night. She’s a therapist, I feel like I turned to her because I just was down, and I couldn’t explain it. And we were just talking about the presentation that we just did recently. And, and one thing she just says that, you know, presentations take a lot out of people, because you’re you’re having to be, you’re having to have this conversation, especially this conversation, and be active and on. While still things might be triggering you along the way. And this conversation is really complex, and it’s not simple. And the feelings and emotions around it are not simple. And it just you don’t have your good days and your bad days. And another thing bad that happened in our presentation is just that the conversation is just hard. And a part of it just seems a part of it is just really sad. And and I’m much more of an intuitive person. So it really just has been affecting me recently. But that’s one of the things I find the hardest is that you’re taking you’re absorbing so much emotion from other people, and having to hold that space for them to be able to have asked questions. And for you to be able to provide clarity and neutrality or have you seen it from this point of view? And that can that can get hard because it is it’s a conflict and your unique confrontation, even when even when saying have you considered it from this point of view?

Zack Ritter
Yes to all that, it’s it’s not easy. And I found myself the other day when Mari and I were presenting at a college like I was just feeling it in my body and nothing particularly bad happened but it’s really brought up a lot of emotions of negative things from the past and I was thinking about when I was sent to do at a at a church. And it’s I was talking about like the Holocaust and this German German national came up to me afterwards it was like really challenging me it was like talking about numbers of how many people were actually killed in the in the in the camps and the showers and things like this. And it just was like, Whoa, this is this is the stuff I hear about on TV about Holocaust deniers and like, here it is in my face and like, but I can’t lose my composure, because then I’m going to look like some angry Jewish guy who came to this church, that’s not my community, and then I popped off on this person. So there’s a lot of there’s a lot of politics around being Muslim in America, there’s a lot of politics around being Jewish in America. And I think, you know, the reason war broke out, October 7, it has made things very, very polarized on social media, obviously, on college campuses. And I think it’s also dug up a lot of trauma, PTSD, things within our bodies, that we knew were kind of there. I don’t know if we really wanted to be confronted with it all at once. But, but here we are, and, and then we’re going to get into it. But but like Marian said, holding people’s pain, while also trying to pretend to kind of put your own pain aside is is a difficult, difficult proposition.

Keith Edwards
A couple of themes that I’m I’m hearing, which I think are relevant to this, and so many other things. But a lot of times I think when we talk about social change, we talk about changing, others are changing the world are changing. And it always begins with self. Yeah, it begins with changing yourself, you’re both pointing towards some of the self work to do that you’ve done to be able to be there and not not have your emotions, but hold them for now tend to them and another space. So you can be here for the emotions of those which is takes a lot of self awareness. Right noticing who in my body, I am really feeling this, and then self management to say, but my job is to be the facilitator of other people’s learning in this moment. And then how are you going to tend to that in other places, right?

Zack Ritter
Yeah, I’m going to let my own jump in. But just as you’re speaking, it jumps into my mind of I was recently reading a Gracie Lee Boggs book. And she’s a for those that don’t know, she’s a very famous activist, changed American activist who married a black man. And they were activists together in Detroit. And she has this great thing where she’s like, now’s the time to transform our souls. And if we don’t transform ourselves and our souls, then how are we going to transform our society? And she’s talking about, like, you know, abolition and voting and changing housing rights and education rights for black folks in Detroit. I’m also thinking as you’re saying this, something my girlfriend tells me sometimes when we’re when we are in conflict, hey, you’re kind of dissociated. You’re not here. Hey, hey, hey. And I think I’ve been in so many situations where there’s such strong emotion from students, staff or faculty. That reminds me of like, my childhood right of growing up in a family where there was a Holocaust survivor who would didn’t know how to regulate her emotions, and she would just yell, and she’d be like, really mean towards people. But it was confusing because she’d also be like, really nice the next moment and she’d be like, you know, caressing your arm and I was Zackary, I love you so much. The reason was, was this kind of Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde stuff, which I also see unfortunately play out in academia in student affairs. But I think growing up in a household, with people with strong emotions with a lot of trauma. And then me, being the youngest in the family, trying to do shuttle diplomacy, trying to soothe people’s souls trying to like be the healer, and the funny guy to get levity in the room. Those skills, I mean, whatever. Yeah, I got like a Master’s and PhD and all those technical things that didn’t really know sorry, my PhD teachers love you, but that didn’t really teach me the skills to do this work. It was growing up in that household and balancing people’s emotions and trauma that how helped me do this work? Well, I

Keith Edwards
think one of the ways that we disassociate is make it an intellectual activity, make it about history, make it about terms make it about this. And I think that’s where student affairs folks can really inhabit that gap. I think there’s a lot of usefulness in talking about this in courses. And some of them might tap into the emotional aspect. But I think a lot of times, we want to avoid the emotions, because I’m uncomfortable with yours, and I’m uncomfortable with mine. And so let’s just keep it objective and keep it factual. But how do we allow for the emotions in a way, because I think denying them doesn’t help, but also letting them run rampant, but how do we allow for them and see what they can offer, and tap into that healing in that connection. I feel like I’m very skillful.

Marium Mohiuddin
I feel like I’m the opposite of this, I am a I am a very emotional person. I grew up very short tempered and angry, and just emotions always present. That’s how my family was, what was there is what you read in our faces, you can still pretty much read, I’m a terrible poker player. But over the years, I’ve learned that like, it just it was getting me nowhere, and how miserable I was, and how much I was pushing people away. So I really put the work in to change. And I, I am very self aware. And I think that change has helped me. Be okay. And be be okay with emotion like, and have it be president because I do strongly believe like when you when you intellectualize or you just keep it. So fact based, I can see people manipulate conversations, and especially when someone’s emotional, how emotion, people’s emotions can be manipulated. And I am such a strong social justice advocate that I can’t even have unjust conversations. Because of how much it drives me crazy when I see those who can hold a temper or keep steady or be intellectual. They can use that almost as a manipulating thing. And it just I can’t I write it up someone cry, yell, scream, and let’s just work through it. And then the other way.

Keith Edwards
I think it’s an important distinction to when we’re doing that. With genuineness and realness rather than disingenuous to be manipulative or to change the conversation or do things in my order, avoid this and focus on that. But fostering that can be a real, it can open up possibilities.

Marium Mohiuddin
Because I think emotions are so like, something happened recently, where Zack and I were presenting, and some questions were being asked to me and I, I can’t even explain, but it was the emotions in the room and the what I was reading off of the presenter, and I was it was so mixing in my brain. And I didn’t know how to, I couldn’t make my way through. And I’m so thankful because Zack was there to be my partner in this conversation. And he just turned to us whispered to me, you don’t have to answer that question. And it provided such clarity for me. But I was also thankful that my emotions were there because it was giving me like, it’s like spidey senses going off. Like, there’s something wrong in this conversation. There’s a different agenda kind of here. So so what I’m getting at is that I think emotions, especially in this conversation are important, and for people to feel them, and then be ready to have a discussion if they can. And because I think those emotions that is they’re so strong right now, in this context. And then if we were to squish them down, then we’re harming ourselves in that process.

Keith Edwards
dehumanize ourselves, yeah.

Zack Ritter
Yeah, and that moment, cuz I’m such an empath, and I know you are as well. But I could feel I could feel you’re like, you’re like, achiness towards this individual. And, and as the, as the words came out of that person’s mouth, I was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah. That’s, that’s not a good thing to ask. And. And, yeah, I mean, you’re, you’re my friend, you’re my colleague, we

Zack Ritter
we’ve known each other for I know, what, six, seven plus years now. And I was just like, I don’t know, I kind of felt like I wanted to defend my friend, you know, and so I just, but I didn’t want to make it a big deal in front of the audience. And so I just like whispered to your like, hey, that’s like, you know, that’s like a personal thing and You don’t have to bare your soul to these folks, right. And a lot of this work can sometimes feel like I am the Jewish person on display, I am the most loved Muslim person on display and ask me anything you want. And it gets offensive, and that there is right gender dynamics. And there’s, there’s racial dynamics. And we, in our planning meetings, my room is like, I’m like, Hey, do you want to see this section, you might do this section. And mine was like, as a male, you know, as a light skinned, like, why presenting Jewish guy, you probably have more latitude, you should say this part, it’s going to be seen better if you say it. And these are, unfortunately, this is the world we live in. And these are the politics that we live in. And I think Mario and I is gold in these educational sessions. With with a lot of stuff on the line, right? These institutions invite us and like, oh, my gosh, the elephant in the room? Like, don’t talk about Gaza, don’t? What about this? What about this, you’re going to offend this, we’re gonna offend this constituency. I think we are trying to bring education bringing some of that healthy emotional abundance, and not to be afraid of our emotions. Because let’s be honest, higher education institutions have become very money driven, and very prestige driven. And so when we’re talking about money and prestige, emotions, and feelings are messy and dangerous and could lose us money.

Keith Edwards
Or media attention or social media attention, or yeah,

Zack Ritter
don’t we don’t want to end up on the front page of the LA Times or whatnot. So I think we how do we how do we talk about these issues of mass death and, and terrible histories of death? In a nice way you can write it’s gonna get messy. And so how do we, how do we get messy without dehumanizing each other? Right?

Marium Mohiuddin
I think that one of the things too, is that we do get messy. And we are honest. And you have to be because it’s not even authenticity. But we’re showing that we’re struggling through this too. And role modeling. Yeah, exactly. Because we’re just not even modeling Oh, look at how we can communicate and work together. We’re also modeling that we’re having a tough time through. And well, we had to do to even compromise to bring this presentation here. And that, you know, we’re also bringing not just ourselves and our education and our work, but our families and our history. And then as accent I am the token Muslim here, but get me and what I represent and who I am and, and so there’s a lot that we’re coming into. And then that’s one thing I appreciate is that I just, as I mentioned, I just can’t hide much back to being a terrible poker player. But and so I appreciate that Zack doesn’t ask me to he never. And that when we’re having this, it’s almost that like, he gives me space to even get teary eyed or, or talk about things or stumble through conversations, because it’s just not it’s not an easy place to be. And if we’re stumbling, we can really know how students and faculty and other people are feeling through this.

Keith Edwards
So three things that I want to highlight, listening to you is CO facilitation is really important, right? So you have just a little bit moment a little bit, you know, that support, but also, I can step away for a little bit, recover, manage some of those things. And then I also heard the sort of intersectional analysis, right, what are all of the other we might be talking about Jews and Muslims, we might be talking about Islamophobia and anti semitism, and what else are at play? What are the gender? What are the racial implicate, you know, what’s all going on here? And then being strategic about that? Right? So given the reality of us, our identities, how we read the world, the pressure on college campuses, the news, the fact that someone’s videoing in the back, how do we take you know all that reality and say, how do we want to strategically move forward so we can be as effective as possible. I’ve talked with several senior student affairs officers who have said we just don’t feel equipped to have to lead this conversation on our campus. And our DEI, folks don’t feel equipped to lead this conversation, I don’t feel equipped to lead this conversation. And we worry if we have it and we’re not equipped, it might do more harm than good. And so we’re not having it. And that feels terrible. And it’s not where we want to be. And we’re really struggling. So I just wonder, before we move on, what else would you offer? What have you learned that may be helpful in for folks who feel like, I’m not equipped to do this, what might you offer them, that might be helpful for them,

Marium Mohiuddin
there’s a couple of things that I can say and that come to mind. One is that I’ve been in communications for a while. And one thing I try to tell any of my clients or whoever I’m working with is Communicate, communicate, over communicate and communicate again, because when you don’t address the elephant in the room, you’re actually making the elephant bigger, and people are going to look at it even more. So I know that people feel like, Oh, we’re just not going to have the conversation. And that’s actually worse than trying to at least tackle or, you know, how do you eat an elephant one bite at a time, and to be and to just have small nuggets of conversation, or just even saying, you can say like, I don’t know, but we’re going to gather in this space, or, you know, having different groups come together or tackling it in different ways. It doesn’t have to be completely so head on, we’re going to take it all on answer all the questions, we’re going to come back and have a solution and self bring peace to the military. Like no one’s asking for that. But people are asking for us to be seen and to be heard. And, and that’s really is that simple. And so I feel like, I feel like that to me is such an important thing is just have the conversation, however small or big you do it, have it? And I think is something that I just mentioned before, too, is that be honest about what you do? And what you don’t know. And I feel like it’s okay to walk into a group and say, you know, I don’t know this whenever I’m coaching a client about interviews with the media. And I even say, if the media asks you questions, and you don’t know the answer, it is okay to say, I don’t know that answer, I will get back to you. And that is a completely legitimate response. Or to say, I don’t know this, I do know this. And I feel like that also plays out in these kinds of presentations.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, it can feel like you’re losing credibility, but when when I do it, but when I hear other people do it against credibility, right, when they say no, I’m not sure about that. But what I do know, I’m just like, Oh, you’re so wise. I think

Zack Ritter
it means administrators, staff, faculty and students. There, you can bring experts to the campus, to do presentations, and to do long term coaching, and to do long term education around these things. And you know, Mari and I are, are currently doing that, which is, which is powerful work. But before you bring, you know, content expert, folks, I don’t know, whatever. That’s a strong word. I don’t know if I’m an expert, but like, you know, we know some stuff. And yeah,

Keith Edwards
well, in process, there’s content, and there’s process to it, correct.

Zack Ritter
I think it’s okay, for institutions to have trauma informed healing spaces and having gatherings where people come and they talk about what they’re seeing on social media, how many of their family members have been killed in this conflict, how many family members are being held hostage or in in prison, you know, in Israel. Just because people’s going back to the emotions, just because people’s emotions are put out there in a in a healing session in a listening session. Doesn’t mean that it’s scary and bad, and is going to lose the institution money or someone. Someone might take out a flag from a country and say, you know, free Palestine, or someone might say, you know, we’re an IDF, Israel Defense Forces shirt. And that’s not the end of the world that’s on a college campus. Aren’t we supposed to be a marketplace of ideas where people are supposed to talk about things and and, and disagree, and collegiately have conflict about these issues. I think we’re so afraid of having healthy conflict, that sometimes we are hiding behind screens and fighting each other there. But we know social media on college campuses especially smashes people down into two dimensional people. And I saw they posted this thing. They’re dead to me. Where do we have the healthy spaces, places on college campuses where people can mess up and and say, say something that they’re trying out that their identity as a Jewish person, as a Christian person, as a Muslim person as a, you know, as a person of good faith coming to this, we need to create spaces where students can figure out who they are. And if we just if we, if we, I’m gonna say two things here, if we shut people down. They may not be saying it, but that that anger or whatever is gonna keep growing in them. And also, you know, Loretta Ross, who created the reproductive justice movement, when she talks about calling people out, but rather calling them in, I think, is, is really important, because in front of a whole audience, if you are publicly shamed as you are the bad person, rather than your statement, or your idea was problematic, and like, let’s think about this in a different way, you can call someone in, and then the learning journey begins, of oof, I didn’t, I didn’t know that when I say that. It hits you like this. And also, there’s a political, financial aspect to what students are saying, I don’t want to be complicit in the killing of other people in the Middle East. And I am really upset at XYZ University for having investments in these missile and bomb companies. And I want you to divest yesterday. And that’s where it gets really sticky and complicated, because institutions are run on finances. And so when you start critiquing the finance of an institution, then institutions start getting scared. But this is nothing new. We saw this in the Vietnam War era, we saw this in the, in the bush, Iraq, Afghanistan wars. This is nothing new. And so we’re, I think these institutions still haven’t gotten maybe equipped to deal with this type of critique.

Keith Edwards
We’ve talked about the bridging between Jews and Muslims. And this isn’t just about Israel and Gaza. It’s also about what’s happening here in the US on college campuses, and power and oppression and religious oppression. I’d love for the two of you to talk a little bit about anti semitism and Islamophobia, and what you’re seeing what you’re noticing, how are they similar? How are they different? Because I think it’s not just about difference. There’s also power and oppression playing out in similar and different ways.

Marium Mohiuddin
I think that’s a trick question. That’s one of the reasons that we’re doing this conversation, or even started this conversation was because I’m not going to solve the issues in the Middle East. I wish I could, and I, I can go out and protest. And in a normal that which I’ve done most of my life, and then it just seemed like, well, this is the one place that I can make a difference because it’s what’s happening in my home. And I’m on my homeland, where I want to make sure from what I’ve experienced growing up doesn’t continue to happen to my nieces and nephews. I don’t have I don’t have any children but and to the future, and to the next generation of Muslim Americans that are out there. You know, I mentioned that I came, I started working well. So let me back up a little bit. I came to America when I was 12. So the height was at the start of the Gulf War, the first Gulf War. So I just feel like since I’ve gotten here, it’s just been this constant onslaught against Muslim Americans. Right. So then you have the different the Gulf Wars, then you have so many movies that just depicted us as terrorists, and we didn’t have a certain look. And then there was and then of course, I love it. And, you know, Zack mentioned some of the Bush era thing policies that came out, like from NCRs to the Patriot Act to even the formation of the DHS. But, um, so, so my thoughts are my thought our thought was that one thing that we know is that the rise of xenophobia and one group hates the rise and other groups. So as you’re seeing this rise, we are legitimately seeing Muslims being attacked physically in their office spaces, how they’re speaking with their co workers or on campus, what they’re publishing, not publishing. And so this is my small people, maybe big, huge, I don’t know, attempt at trying to provide some kind of discourse or even making someone say, Hmm, so if they say, if they’re wearing a coffee, what does that mean? You know, my cousin was just telling me that the kid was a student was beat up in Austin, and he was wearing a coffee. And like, what does that show me? Like, why did that happen? Can I? Why didn’t someone step in? Can I help have that conversation? So people know, when wearing that it doesn’t mean that you’re anti semitic? It means that you’re, you know, you’re proud of Palestine and the Palestinian people. Yeah.

Zack Ritter
I think we don’t we’re not good at going beyond the binary, even in terms of LGBTQ plus issues, right. So or anything, or anything. Right. Right. So I think what mine is saying I’m agreeing with like, just because I where there’s fear doesn’t mean I hate XYZ group, or I want death to XYZ group on picking up on Mari’s said. We know the ADL anti Defamation League, reports that anti semitism rates have gone up reporting has gone up 388% Since October 7. We also know that care Muslim American relations indicates that since October, 7 Islamophobic hate crimes incidences have gone up 300%. So we both know that we all know that both of these communities are facing violent, violent attacks on their on their bodies, verbal hatred, and otherwise, right. And think we also have to remember what it means to be in a brown body in this country, right to be in a black or brown body. There’s already a visible hatred target on you, because of the genocidal history and slavery history of this country. I am able, in most places, well, in LA and New York and other places, I don’t feel as comfortable but like, if I am not wearing a yarmulke or not wearing a Jewish star, I can pass. Now some there’s really good haters, you know, it’s really sometimes it’s really good. Hey, it’s all I could tell, you know, his nose and his five o’clock shadow and all the stuff that’s due. And I’ve had that I’ve had, I’ve had that in, when I was on vacation with my brother, this guy came up to us and said, I know who you are. And you’re Jewish, and I’ve come here to kill you. And I’m, I know what you’ve done in history. And he wanted to do, we’ve gotten in a fight. And it was a whole production it was it was terrible. So I think I can hide more so than a Muslim person who’s in a in a black or brown body. There’s also white Muslims, I understand this. And I think I have to challenge my own some of my own internal lives, anti semitism, because sometimes when I hear complaints, reports from some of the people in my circle, that that’s anti semitic, that’s anti semitic, some of it is really anti semitic. But just because someone critiques Israel, or just because someone is waving a Palestinian flag or saying, hey, hey, you know, Netanyahu, we charged you with genocide. You may not agree with that statement. But critiquing the leader of a country is not inherently, in my opinion, anti semitic. And, you know, we can get into the IRA definition and all that that’s, that’s contested. But with all that said, as a professional, I want to hold space for everybody, even with opinions that I that I deeply disagree with, even from my own community, right? Jewish identify, and I was talking to someone Who was pro Palestinian? And they were saying some things that were really hard for me to hear they were saying that the people that were dancing in the desert on that day deserve to die, because why are they dancing so close to the Gaza border? And shouldn’t they have known? And isn’t that amazing that the paragliders were gliding and machine gunning people, because it’s so innovative in the way that they attacked Israel. And so some of these things, I need to hold space for it and say, Okay, I, I hear what you’re saying. And before I verbally attack them, or whatever I need to hear and understand where they’re coming from. And then I can start gently pushing back. But I think our culture is so ingrained, and if you don’t immediately shut someone down on social media, if you do immediately don’t, if you don’t shut someone down in person, that you are a sellout and you are not, you know, an anti racist, and that and that you’re, you’re part of the problem, you are perpetuating the kill, right?

Keith Edwards
You’re not whatever enough, right? You’re not You’re not.

Marium Mohiuddin
Not so one thing you asked about was our the history of the two groups. And so I wanted to comment on that, because that’s one of the things that led me in this direction and wanted to be involved with Muslim Jewish relations was because when I began to learn more about Judaism, one thing was I had to confront was my own internal anti semitism, and then began to see how much of what I believed and being a Muslim was so similar to who Jews aren’t about they believe. And just that there was this same was interesting. There’s just like one small thing incident that happened when I had asked somebody like, what do you do on Christmas. And then I mentioned like, Oh, I hate Christmas Day, there’s nothing to do. And I mean, and I was, you know, growing up in the 80s, and 90s, pre Internet, and pre streaming channels, there was nothing on TV that day, and nothing was open. I hated Christmas Day, because it was just, I just felt so like everybody else is doing something special. And I was alone, we’re doing nothing. But what I’m getting at is that I found a Jewish friend who had the same feeling. And it was such a deep feeling, because I was from my childhood, that I felt absolutely connected. And I think these two communities have been connected for so long, and yet are now being pitted against one another. And I think it’s advantageous to have us pitted against one another, instead of having us work together. And there’s so much more commonality when we were doing this presentation that we referenced a little while ago, someone kept mentioning, Judeo Christian, Judeo Christian. And finally, I just stopped this, can we please stop using this term? Because this term has nothing to do with Judaism and Christianity. And the similarity between the two and actually is a lot to do with Christianity dominating. And the thing is that there’s also a truth of the three religions being Abrahamic. And we’ve established that so why do we keep turning to these two together? This one’s over here. Like, why not just bring them all together and have this presentation? And, and the speaker that I when I commented on this, he got so offended and, and, and I was like you, you don’t even understand what I’m trying to say. It’s not about you. It’s about how you’ve been tricked into like, even using this terminology, which is breaking us apart even further, when we actually are so aligned. And my mom used to, my mom loves talking about just how well you know, back in the day, Muslims and Jews, we got along and we live, so to get peacefully together, and it’s like, okay, Mom, yes. No, I know. You know, when you look at like you and things like we, the Spanish Inquisition was against both of us. Terrible reference, but I was just recently in Spain. And my tour guide was like, Oh, this is where Muslims and Jews were killed. And we just kind of turn and we looked at this and like, okay, it was such a weird feeling. But, but there is this long history of being together.

Keith Edwards
Yeah. I love that commonality across difference, right? That which doesn’t mean they’re the same, but that there is also commonality in in the difference. And, you know, religious and cultural differences and racial and ethnic differences and differences experience, oppression, the thing that the two of you reminded me is from another religion, sort of a Buddhist maxim of, you know, notice your activity. And then how do you get to a place where you can choose a response, right? So when when I hear this, I want to be reactive, and that’s my flash, my trigger my get back at them. Right? And how do I take a breath? Respond tomorrow, don’t respond so that I can choose a response in alignment with my values and who I want to be But

Marium Mohiuddin
there’s actually a saying that if you’re if you’re like confronted in an angry conversation, and you’re both standing like you should sit down, and then still angry, go lie down. To break that, like removing yourself and taking a breath. I completely agree. Yeah,

Keith Edwards
Yeah, I think Zack mentioned earlier that people are afraid of healthy conflict. I’m not afraid of healthy conflict, I’m afraid of messing up. I’m afraid of getting it wrong. I’m afraid of stepping in it. And the the criticism, not of what I said, but of who I am. Right. And that’s, that’s the difference between guilt and shame. And I think that’s, that’s really powerful. Well, we knew this wouldn’t be enough time we’re running out of time. I want to move us toward our closing question. The podcast is called Student Affairs NOW, we always like to end by asking, What are you thinking, troubling or pondering now? So just feel free to share with folks anything you want to add on this topic? Or maybe there’s something else that you really is present with you today? And then if folks want to connect with you, where might they best be able to do that? Mari, we’re gonna start with you.

Marium Mohiuddin
Sure. So I mentioned that I was speaking to my sister about this. And my sisters, and I have an older sister as well. We’ve talked about this a lot. And just because we’re all facing this in different ways, my younger sister, being a therapist, my eldest sister, being an educator, and me being a communicator. And, and one thing I keep remembering, and we keep reminding ourselves is that we’ve been taught different ways to have conversation with different groups, and acceptance and conflict resolution. And so why can’t that be brought into this conversation? Why does it automatically get turned off? And like the benefit of the doubt that we’ve given people are in conversation? My aunt likes to mention a saying, in Islam about, if you, you should give someone 700 reasons why excuses. And the last excuse should be, I can’t think of enough excuses. And so she’s always mentioning that and, and it’s kind of like, I’m not giving excuses for this conversation, but fine to see that other perspective. And I’m so thankful that I am in a family that I can bring something up, and people will be like, Okay, let’s think this through. But I say all of this to say that this is such a complicated issue with complicated feelings, and that so many of us are different stages and levels. And it’s okay. And if you’re backing away from a friendship or a relationship, in the short term, it could come back in the long term. And it’s okay to do that, because it is that difficult. And then I just hope that people can just pause to say, what or what the other side might be thinking. Anyways, I don’t want to take more time. But you can also find me on pretty much any social media platform. I’m a communications person. So everything is open, if you just look under my name, and my name of Marium is very unique. Most people don’t spell it this way.

Keith Edwards
Awesome. Thank you. What’s with you, right now, Zack.

Zack Ritter
And thinking about that little kid that I was, and how we’re all in some ways, that little kid just walking around and bigger bodies, pretending

Keith Edwards
to be grownups pretend.

Zack Ritter
Someone’s doing a better job than others. Speaking from experience, I, I think we focus a lot on, you know, sometimes the tough stuff of the hurt child or the broken child or not loved enough. And sometimes, what about the child, the different parts of our childhood where we, our cups were full, and we were having fun, and why am I playing in the sandbox, or we’re at the beach or whatever we’re doing. And I’m thinking about the power of humor. And that little kid that I was using humor using my kind of slapstick body to like, make people laugh and, and soothe people’s pain that I had experienced. You know, my grandma’s family, they were murdered, like four sisters, two parents, she had a whole I saw a picture with 60 people that I had never met, taking a photograph. I don’t know how to survive this photograph taken before the war. And then my dad showed it to me and he said, out of these 60 people, four people survived. And so the power of humor that I sought to defuse and to make laugh polar name was polar Allamanda grandma, Paula. And I was watching a comedian, a Palestinian comedian, named Sammy. And, and he he said, you know, Well, while I’m not a Zionist, in fact, I don’t even know really what his sinuses but like I’m, I saw that there’s different types of Zionism and he’s always using humor. And he’s saying, there’s one one word Zionism, which is like, Jewish folks should have a safe place where they live and they feel comfortable. Okay, I can get behind that. And then there’s like a second level of Zionism, where it’s like, and the stage should be right in the middle east, where we’re Palestinian folks are living, and but it’s okay, you guys are gonna figure it out. And then he looks at the screen, he’s like, are we? And then there’s, there’s a third level of it, which is God told me that this is my land, and here’s my like, large weapon, and you gotta deal with God like, Oh, like that, you know? That’s not a good. So I, I kind of think that joke is interesting, because when we talk about these hard and fast things, are you a Zionist or an anti Zionist? There’s so much more on that spectrum of pro Palestinian, or why do you hate the Palestinians? There’s so much more beyond the binary. When when we listen to each other, you know, sometimes humor is appropriate. Sometimes it’s not. I mean, there’s there’s mass death and mass casualties. So so I don’t know about always using humor, but I, I’m trying to find places and spaces that are refilling my cup, so that I can go out and do this work. Because if, you know, my girlfriend is constantly doing the scrolling. And it’s, it’s, it’s crushing her soul. And so I’m thinking about, I’m thinking about that. And I’m also thinking about the, the power that universities have to model role model to our young folks, that it’s okay. And it’s beautiful to protest. And it’s more than okay, it’s beautiful, to, like we were talking about in the beginning to show emotions, and to say 27 to 30,000 Gazan folks are killed. And we don’t want anyone being killed and is 200 plus hostages, Israeli hostages, we don’t want that either. And here are some steps forward about how to share power to share land. And it breaks my heart. When I see folks with with, you know, I don’t know, donors or board members that are silencing young people and doing the kind of the the Neo McCarthy thing of saying you are bad, because you care about human rights, you are bad because you care. But we also care about human rights. And we need to be able to have this discussion and we need to model it on college campuses. Because if we can’t model it on college campuses, how are we going to model it in the presidential debates and and then the law offices and the doctor’s offices and and, and churches, temples, Masjid, that’s what I’m thinking about.

Keith Edwards
It reminded me of Jon Kabat Zinn says, This is too serious a matter to not take to take too seriously. And his point is not just that humor helps us with perspective, but also it helps us see possibilities we wouldn’t see otherwise. And Mari has talked about grace and openness to engaging with people and I think humor can help us do that. Zack, where can people find you if they want to connect with you a little bit more?

Zack Ritter
Yeah. ritter.zack@gmail.com I’m on Instagram, I’m on Facebook, connect with me bring Mari and I you know, to campus. And, and you know, even if you disagree with the things that that, that I’m saying? I want to hear from you. And I want to hold space. And it’s do those tough conversations with people I deeply disagree with that I’ve learned more and I become I transformed my soul as would say so. So I welcome everybody.

Keith Edwards
Yeah. And we’re still learning, still learning. Thank you both. This has been terrific. I really appreciate the work that you’ve done, are doing and will continue to do. I think this is so important for so many reasons. And beyond this moment, and will will continue to be important. So thank you both. Thanks also to our yeah, thanks also to our sponsors of today’s episode Routledge and LeaderShape. Routledge, Taylor and Francis is the world’s leading academic publisher in education publishing a wide range of books, journals and other resources for practitioners, faculty, administrators and researchers. They welcome Stylus publishing to their publishing program and are thrilled to enrich their offerings in higher education teaching student affairs professional development, assessment and more. They’re a proud sponsor of the podcasts you can view the complete catalogue at routledge.com/education and LeaderShape partners with colleges and universities to create transformational leadership experiences for students and professionals. With a focus on creating a more just caring and thriving world. LeaderShape offers engaging learning experiences and courageous dialogue, integrity, equity, resilience, and community building. To find more about them, please visit leadershape.org or connect with them on social. A huge shout out to our producer Natalie Ambrosey who does all the behind the scenes work to make us all look and sound good. We love the support for these conversations from our community. You can help us reach even more folks by subscribing to the podcast on YouTube and our weekly newsletter. If you’re so inclined, you can leave us a five star review. It helps conversations like this which are so important. reach a broader audience. I’m Keith Edwards. Thanks again to both our fabulous guests today. And to everyone who’s watching and listening. Make it a great week. Thank you both.

–