Lori Patton Davis
So it could be one or multiple things that you know, weigh on our mental, physical or emotional health. And so I’m thinking a lot about this concept of weathering. And you know, I was recently reading about how weathering causes black women to age faster and to age earlier and, and even the efforts we put force to resist and combat have an impact on us, right? Because we’re trying to fight and combat against stress. And so I’m thinking about that as well as structural determinism, right? So we’re in these structures, these intersecting structures of racism and sexism, and heterosexism, all of these pieces that I think have a cumulative effect on how we navigate higher education, how we navigate society more broadly. And what that means not only for us, whether we’re faculty or practitioners, but it weighs on us as mothers spouse, as caregivers, and for some of us, it means escaping and moving to a different locale or finding another role or whatever. But But I think the larger impact is that for, for black women, there isn’t necessarily this point of continued rest, they can that we get the opportunity to tap into and so I think that is the most harmful effect of that we have to grab and snatch and try to steal moments, and what sometimes feels like otherwise very toxic spaces in higher education.

Raechele Pope
Welcome to Student Affairs NOW the online learning community for Student Affairs educators. I’m your host, Raechele Pope. today are we today we are discussing black women’s health and well being and our lived experiences in higher education. The issue is irrelevant and the responses are critical. We have four amazing guests today. I feel so lucky. Doctors Mary Howard Hamilton, Lori Patton Davis, Sherry Watt, and Paris Wicker. If that isn’t a superstar lineup, I don’t know what it is. Student Affairs now is the premier podcast and online learning community for 1000s of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education student affairs. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays find details about this episode or browse our archives at studentaffairsnow.com. Today’s episode is sponsored by Routledge, Taylor and Francis view their complete catalogue of authoritative educational titles at routledge.com forward slash education. This episode is also sponsored by Huron a global professional services form that collaborates with clients to put possible solutions into practice. As I mentioned, I’m your host, Raechele Pope. My pronouns are she and her, and I’m a professor in the higher education and student affairs program at the University of Buffalo. I also served as a Senior Associate Dean for Faculty and Student Affairs and the unit Diversity Officer for the Graduate School of Education. I’m recording today near the University of Buffalo’s campus on the unseeded Land of the holding Ashanti people. Let’s get into this conversation. We are so grateful to welcome you all, I am thrilled that you’re here. And I’m going to ask that you start off by please introducing yourself with your pronouns. And to share a bit about yourself and how you’re entering the conversation today. So Mary Howard Hamilton, Dr. Mary Hamilton. So I’m going to ask you to please start us off.

Mary Howard Hamilton
Hey, thank you, Raechele, for inviting me to your platform. Today. I am Dr. Mary Howard Hamilton, I use she her pronouns. And I am the I am the chair of the Department of Educational Leadership at Indiana State University. And I’ll be closing out that my eight year tenure as chair and about four weeks. And I’m also professor of the higher in the higher education leadership program at Indiana State. I am entering today fresh from visiting the Motherland the continent of Africa, the country of South Africa. And my my mind is swimming with all kinds of amazing ideas and interactions with some amazing global partners who have had great conversations with me over the past two weeks, about higher education, where we are in higher today issues of race racism, sexism, homophobia in the academy, and I’m just thrilled to be here to maybe share some tidbits about some of the things that I picked up over there.

Raechele Pope
Or you pick up? Absolutely,

Lori Patton Davis
I’m happy to be here with you all today. Thank you so much for the invitation. I’m Dr. Lori Patton Davis, my pronouns are she and her. And I am a professor in the higher education and student affairs program at The Ohio State University, which is on the lands of the Shawnee Potawatomi, Delaware, Miami, Peoria, Seneca y&r a jib way in Cherokee peoples. So we just all on folks lands but okay, I’m pleased to be here. And I think the thing that’s resonating with me today and how I’m entering is I have black feminism on my mind. And so what I contribute today is heavily connected to some of the work that I’m doing around black feminism.

Raechele Pope
Thank you, Lori, Sherry.

Paris Wicker
Hi, everyone. I’m really excited to be here as well and always look forward to good conversation and really enjoy having the chance to talk with everyone here. I am Dr. Sherry Watt. I am a professor at the University of Iowa. And I’m coming to the conversation today. I think in my recovery period from the end of a very long academic year, and rediscovering and reconnecting myself with my joys so as I process and D talks from all the different ways that being a black woman in higher ed has played out for me, I am reminding myself of the things that I enjoy most. And those are playing and catching the ball or my dog catching the ball playing fetch with my dog. I love chocolate labs. And also, I’m a sports fan. So I’m enjoying watching basketball and all that and all the other sports resting point being one of my favorites. And then I would say, my last joy is not I’m not able to live it out as much as I used to. But I still hold on to the fact that I’m an athlete. And I like to move and get myself going and wish I could do the things that could when I was a younger athlete, but it’s still in my mind, I’m still holding my athlete mindset. So that’s what I’m bringing today to the conversation.

Raechele Pope
every parent’s not last but definitely not least.

Paris Wicker
Greetings all. My name is Dr. Paris Wicker I use she her pronouns. And I’ve just completed my first year as an assistant professor of higher education at the University at Buffalo. I’m so excited for this opportunity to be in community with so many of my mentors and people that I look up to you. I research success and wellbeing and health, in higher education for black and indigenous students, faculty and staff. So it’s my research, but it’s also my life, I want to practice what I preach as I enter into the academy. I keep thinking a lot about how I can do this. Well, I also have two daughters who are four and six. And my six year old just told me that she wants to be a professor when she grows up. So I said, Oh, Lord, but I want to create a place where I can be well, and she can be well, at the same time. So that’s why I’m here. And I’m excited to be here.

Raechele Pope
That’s great. I have to tell you all from the moment I woke up this morning in the shower all day long, all I have been thinking of is Mary J. Blige just work that song. So I’m thinking about Kamala walking out to that song. And I’m thinking, Oh, I am so pumped for this conversation. So. So thank you again, I think it is fair to say that all of us and so many other black women, especially those of us working in higher education, have been thinking about worrying about the trauma that black women are facing in these often toxic environments in higher education. I think back to 2020, when the Twitter site blacks in the ivory came out and listening to those stories and how they recounted incident after incident on campus of black faculty, administrators and staff. More recently, we see those same types of social media posts, articles and news stories about the issues faced by black women we have and we can recall the hounding of the black president of Harvard, and Lori’s eloquent article with diverse issues about that situation, the Essence magazine article about the death of the VP of Student Affairs at Lincoln University, we can think about Dr. Kennedy, Bailey and Dr. Joanne Epps of Temple University and Dr. Montague, Volunteer State Community College. We know that these aren’t isolated, tragic issues. In fact, Alexia Hudson word from MIT libraries wrote in her blog once that the persistent job stress punctuated by the racism and sexism that bipoc Women Leaders encounter in higher education can devastate these women’s physical, emotional, and mental health. So that’s the reason for this conversation. And it might be the place for us to begin this conversation. What are the important and unique and harmful effects experienced by black women in higher education? And how are they affecting you? Or the women? You know? That’s a big, big question. So I’m going to start off with Lori, to get us started with this.

Lori Patton Davis
Alright, thanks. I think you’ve done a great job of just you just offering the context. Any viewer and all of us are familiar with what the literature and research says around how black women experience higher education. But I think the effect becomes unique for us because we are either experiencing experiencing it or we see colleagues who look like us experiencing it. So it could be one or multiple things that you know, weigh on our mental, physical or emotional health. And so I’m thinking a lot about this concept of weathering. And you know, I was recently reading about how weathering causes black women to age faster and to age earlier and, and even the efforts we put force to resist and combat have an impact on us, right? Because we’re trying to fight and combat against stress. And so I’m thinking about that as well as structural determinism, right? So we’re in these structures, these intersecting structures of racism and sexism, and heterosexism, all of these pieces that I think have a cumulative effect on how we navigate higher education, how we navigate society more broadly. And what that means not only for us, whether we’re faculty or practitioners, but it weighs on us as mothers spouse, as caregivers, and for some of us, it means escaping and moving to a different locale or finding another role or whatever. But But I think the larger impact is that for, for black women, there isn’t necessarily this point of continued rest, they can that we get the opportunity to tap into and so I think that is the most harmful effect of that we have to grab and snatch and try to steal moments, and what sometimes feels like otherwise very toxic spaces in higher education.

Paris Wicker
Mm hmm. Yeah. Lori, I really appreciate what you’re saying, and all the different ways you describe the toll that it takes. i What, what resonated immediately, with me that I was thinking about when I think of my own suffering, the unexpected part that you refer to, for me is how hard it is for me to see suffering in other other sisters and brothers, right, like, like the harm that it does to me to hear their story, as I’m managing my own story. And I don’t even realize sometimes I think when I’m hearing it and seeing it, sometimes I literally think I blanked out, because I just can’t take any more in. And then I’m like, wait a minute, what did you say again, I mean, it just seems like it’s compiles in so many ways, which I think manifests itself in, you know, we are tired, when we see each other, even though we’re happy to see each other, you know, and so, you know, then then sometimes you can’t see each other because not only because it’s hectic, and you’re busy, and you’re scrambling, but you also know that when you see each other, you are going to be visiting your pain, you know, and, and so that, for me is what, when I think of how I cope, and what I see, I think of that I also think of the ways it breaks me down in terms of it makes you you’re always having to reposition yourself around reality, you know how other people see you. But you are trying to persistently see yourself a particular way. And you have to constantly negotiate between that other othering reality, and that is designed, you know, dizzying for me. At times, I’m constantly having to call somebody and say, remind me again, remind you that I’m not crazy. Can you tell me again, it’s like you’re you know, you just have this negotiation between those, those different realities all the time. So that is the second guessing how you manage it. And also how you process the pain that you’re managing while you’re managing someone else’s. And all the different ways you try to avoid that, if at all possible, at the same time, provide support, that there’s all these different dichotomies that I think play out. So that’s what comes to my mind.

Raechele Pope
marier repairs, is there anything else that you would add to that, or some other tapes that you had on that?

Paris Wicker
Um, yeah, I think I’ll just add, I mean, I appreciate Lori, when you added about weathering and that the consequences for black women under this dress like it’s great has a greater toll on our body. And when I started reading about the health literature that like, our money won’t save us having more money, doesn’t make us less likely to have comorbidities or have early death, having higher education doesn’t seem to hurt. And so I think sometimes it is really depressing and daunting when you see that and of course, Joy is happening, joy and thriving is happening for me. It’s it’s a particular pathway that I in and I had the opportunity to research women black women in their health. When I was in graduate school and the way that these black women, they didn’t hold anything back. And at first I thought, are they trying to traumatize me but I realized now it was actually a gift. They wanted me to come into this space, eyes wide open. They wanted me to know about how they felt Both hyper visible having feeling the need to be perfect and the stress that comes with that and never make a mistake and being highly scrutinized, and at the same time feeling invisible and not having the mentorship and the support and the guidance that they needed, and how that those two things compound it upon each other. And so I think because of that, I really go into this, like, there is a pathway of thriving, but it’s very particular. And I know now that black women can’t just go anywhere. We need support and guidance. And so that’s something that I will add to that our physical bodies, right? They say Black don’t crack that’s on the outside. But on the inside, students is killing us. And we may not look at that’s the hard part. They may see us and be like, Oh, girl, you look good, or we don’t always want to look, what have we been through? Right? It’s what they say. So, you know, black won’t crack on the outside, but on the inside, these things can be incredibly detrimental.

Mary Howard Hamilton
Yeah, I do agree with what my sister scholars are saying. It’s the weathering piece of it, that Lori began with is is coming full circle with our conversations. And, and yeah, I thank God that we’ve got really that we’re really melanated. Because Boy, I tell you, if they, if they really saw the stress on us, it would be it, there would be there would be a lot of trauma physically, that would be quite visible. I was listening also to what Paris just mentioned about about, just briefly, you mentioned about the financial piece of it. And I agree that I wish that we had a way that we we could be provided money for all the work that that we do in a way that is which were compensated equitably. One, it’s interesting that one of the things that has been really traumatizing for one of one of my young sister scholars, it has been, it has been trying to make ends meet in this profession, that that doesn’t pay much. And then on top of that, you know, as black women were paid, we’re at the very bottom of of everything economically, in terms of pay, negotiating the attempt to get more money. And so very briefly, I just want to say that, you know, I think that one of the pieces about the weathering and trauma for us is is also the feminization of poverty is is real, even for black women who have PhDs, Edd, whatever, who have terminal degrees and are trying to make it in this field. I’m just really concerned that one of the things that we’ve got to teach our young sister Scholars is to is to understand that is to understand our self worth financially, to understand it, and to really fight for it. And that will hopefully help a little bit with with the weathering piece of it.

Raechele Pope
Well, one of the things that Paris said then that you picked up on is this this financial thing and what why that’s really important is I’m not sure if you know, I was looking on my bookshelf to see if I had it handy. Linda Bella roses book under the skin. It’s the hidden toll of racism on American lives and the health of our nation. It is brilliant. It is fascinating. It was on the shortlist for the for the Pulitzer just a couple of years ago. And in her book, she talks about people tried to explain away the effect of the poor health care for black folks and other folks of color and tried to explain away a lot of this and they said no, no, it’s really poverty that’s doing it. And the study results is no it isn’t. It is racism. And so it doesn’t matter if you have the highest degrees, it doesn’t matter if you are making a lot of money, you are still being affected in some really horribly, horrible ways that are affecting our health on the inside. You know, I have an example I on in the fall of 2020. You know, so we had come back campuses weren’t for the first time my wife I started experiencing high blood pressure. And it was it was a direct result of my role and the kinds of things I was doing. I was hearing everybody’s pain as Sherry was talking about I was doing and so the doctor said she was gonna send me up for a stress test. You know, on my heart, I said I’m a black woman living in America through these twin pandemics of racism and COVID. You don’t have to give me any more stress I’m in the midst of right. And so she laughed and sent me off to cardiology. But that’s it. So I see that and I realized this is deeper. This is, and we don’t recognize it. And so we hold the pain of others, not just the ones who we know are coming to us. But the ones who are supposed to come to us, our students, our mentees, our friends, our loved ones who are struggling as well. And then we end up holding that and we want to hold it, we see it as our role. And yet, we aren’t getting those places enough to hold it, to have somebody else hold ours for a little while. And we’ve got to figure out ways to be able to do that. So this, this conversation is so important. And if you don’t have Linda Bella roses book, you’ve got to get it, it is so incredibly well written.

Lori Patton Davis
There’s, um, there’s also another book, I think her name is the kill. And Zynga I think, maybe have some more recent book called Lean semesters. Yes. And, um, wow, it’s been very hard to get through that book, right? I couldn’t get through the first chapter, I think is titled, mortgaging our brains. And there’s just this thing that happens with black women in this just within the higher education context, all of the brilliance, and all of the creativity, all of those things, and this is unpaid labor, right? Because it’s, it’s easy, I think, in some ways to just, you know, and it’s not magic. I mean, we, but black women make it happen in higher education. But making it happen doesn’t then lead to promotion, it doesn’t lead to additional compensation, actually, from this particular book, it leads to more debt, if you’re a graduate student, right? You’re being tapped to engage in all these committees and do all of these things. And so you’re giving, you know, are contributing all of this brain power, but not much in return, you’re actually becoming beholden to the institution. And so there’s this weird, cyclical, dynamic, that we can be mules and, you know, do all of this work in higher education, and it’s an expectation that is externally driven, and that we’re socialized to make internal for us that this is something you know, we have to do. And so part of the decolonization, I would say, of our minds, is just understanding that the labor doesn’t have to be ours, like we can say that brain power and place it elsewhere, it doesn’t always have to be situated in higher education are situated in the ways that I think we again, through graduate school, and, you know, tenure track or, you know, going through our respective graduate programs, been socialized to, you know, be givers to the academy, without really fully understanding that it’s not a reciprocal kind of relationship that’s happening.

Paris Wicker
Yeah, exactly. And that, oh, sorry, I was gonna say with the book, Lean semesters, they really focused on black women as adjuncts, because the majority of folks who are serving in that role and contingency roles, and that in essence, we’re disposable, we give and give and give our soul. And when they no longer need us, and when it’s no longer useful, then they get rid of us, and won’t feel bad about it. And so I really appreciate that Lori saying, like, labor doesn’t have to be ours. And oftentimes, and this is something you know, Rochelle has been really great as a great mentor, because I was like, I’m going to do this, I’m going to support students. And she’s like, you know, you don’t have to do. You don’t have to do all that. But I think if I don’t do it, who will? And I know that that has been ingrained in me, right. I’ve gotten that socialization from somewhere. But I love that point that somebody will pick it up, right, it does not have to be solely black women doing the work. But I know many of us who are coming through the academy, we feel that sense of responsibility, right? A heavy burden, I think, to care for those around us.

Paris Wicker
Not only do we feel a sense of responsibility, but I think we you know, we put pressure on each other because there’s so much to do that we we know we’re obligated and we expect that of each other and the folks who are coming to us expected of us. I have a former doc student of mine who is part of our writing group, her name is Milly Oliver and she wrote This part of her writing includes this idea of I rest when I’m not tired. And I thought, Oh, this is, you know, the idea what she’s the question I think she posed is Why do I have to deserve rest? So it’s this conversation is making me think about something I’ve been, I want to wonder about and would love to talk about is, you know, what if we put what I call racism on the clock, right? What if we weren’t? What is we aren’t doing the extra outside of time. But, oh, we got derailed by racism today, and all the craziness, which is every day, so I’m going to not do this. Because I had to do this. I spent this much time, you know, what if we did something like that, I think we knew, you know, this idea of saving ourselves. And we’re talking about, like being exhausted, and we feel obligated to do more? How? How could we manage our time, in a way that is different? I think about that a lot. I think, you know, I am expected to do these things. But when at what point in my career and in my life? Do I get to also enjoyed my money or enjoy my time or enjoy my status? You know, at some point, when do I get to say that that’s okay. And other people not dictate that. So I am I don’t know if that jumps to a different conversation, but it just makes me think whenever when we’re raising this, how exhausted we are, what if we were doing it differently? I just, I

Raechele Pope
hear you almost talking about sort of like a comp time. Right, you know, the business world,

Paris Wicker
Reclaiming my time Reclaiming my work.

Raechele Pope
So I get a different day off in the week. And you’re saying, hey, this got in the way this did this, this clear environment, this racism, this toxic environment, whatever was happening, stopped me from being able to do these other things I needed to do, I need some comp time to make up for that I’m going to rest and put this aside for a while. You know, Bernice Johnson Reagan’s song, from sweet honey and the rock, we who believe in freedom cannot rest right now, I know for a fact Bernice Johnson did not mean we weren’t allowed to rest, what she meant was, somebody else is going to pick it up. So we do it, when we get tired, someone else picks it up for a while we join back into this marathon. And I think that that’s still part of what you’re saying that it’s going to have to get done, but somebody else is going to have to take their share of take their leg of this race.

Paris Wicker
Yeah,

Mary Howard Hamilton
I agree. I agree with Sherry 100% on this and, and the thing that’s tricky is, is not feeling guilty about it. Because we’ve been brainwashed to feel guilty about taking that comp time, you got to step away from it, and just say, hey, you know, that’s your issue, not mine, I’m gonna reclaim my time, I’m going to take care of myself, because I want to be here for a while. And And oftentimes, what I’ve found is that our own our own colleagues, can be our own worst enemy with this. I’ll give you a really quick example. I, I have been focusing on doing that a lot more intentionally, the past few years. And we have, we have a new colleague on campus who African American woman who had been came on board, she was asking me to do a whole lot of stuff. And I really appreciate that because I, I know, she I knew she was new, and I knew that she wanted me to be connected and engaged with her. And, and I started I started saying no. And she said, you know, and so we had to have we, we had to have a conversation about the length of time I’ve already been on campus 20 years, and the amount of time I have given Body Soul time, and that there are other ways that I could be of great help without advising every group and doing everything. So so we you know, we have we have to remember sometimes we are our own worst enemy. And the second thing is to not let people guilt you into saying yes

Raechele Pope
that really moves us into some of these coping strategies for this. You know how we say no, when we say no, it’s a very different conversation Mary for you and I to say no, as we are so much for we’re just so Oh, that’s what I’m trying to say. I was trying to find a nice way.

Mary Howard Hamilton
I hope I did. I did oh, and I just, I just don’t care what people say anymore. When I say no or whatever. I just, and I know that I know that, that that I know, when we look at young scholars like Paris, you know, she’s at a stage an a, in a place in her career, where saying no, could be volatile. And I, what I what I tell my young, particularly my young black colleagues and scholars is that, you know, the first thing you got to ask yourself is, will I be missed? And then also talk to your mentor, you know, I was asked to do this, and your mentor will help you with it. But you got to ask yourself, will I be missed? And things like, for example, attending commencement ceremonies, yes, you will be missed. And you need you need to be in that space. Although annoying, and you know, it’s long. However, for just a little while. Yeah, you need to be in that space. But there are other places you don’t need the you won’t be missed. So don’t worry about it.

Paris Wicker
Yeah, yeah, I’ve definitely that that set, how to say no, you know, I’ve gotten the advice like, oh, have a no committee. And it’s like, but I still, you know, it feels like what’s the consequence? And you don’t know what that is. But I love the idea that starting now like that it is possible, and it’s expected. Right? I talked to some of my other colleagues who are white or white males are like, oh, say no, all the time. Like, no is their default. And so, really, and that, that I want to move exactly in that direction? Because I don’t know that that’s always helpful to but really being mindful about, yeah, am I going to be missed? Can someone else do the work? Maybe it’s not right now. Maybe it’s later, you know. And so I think being strategic, right? When I first started, someone said, Well, what’s your strategy? And I said, Well, maybe we’ll talk about this. Talking about, like, having a strategy, not just a strategy, you know, on the faculty side for tenure, because that’s, but like, This person was asked me like, what’s my strategy for life? What is my strategy for wholeness, and it was a, it was a different type of strategy, which I really appreciate it, but I realized, like, oh, I actually need to think about that. Just like I think about how to get tenure, all of those things. Like I need a strategy to care for myself and being able to revisit that plan. And so I feel very grateful to that person asked me for that. But yeah, I think that’s, that’s important. It’s equally I mean, it’s not an optional I see at this point.

Paris Wicker
You know, kind of related to that is I don’t, you also, it’s very difficult for other people to make a determination about what’s on your plate. So you really have to do your own discernment. I mean, people can listen to you, but and help you to clarify what you can say yes and no to. But the, the idea of what that took out of me, in order for me to be able to do this, you know, I also think of what are my what are the things in my calendar that are energy givers versus energy? drainers? And how do I, if I have to do this toxic meeting? How do I plan to recover from that, you know, if I have to do you know, a day of this? Where is my day where I get the rejuvenated part of my energy? Where do I When do I get to sit with the group that I enjoy working with him, and the way they work in academia and making sure that I schedule those into my calendar as a regular rhythm? In my day, you know, back to the briefly the racism on the cot, it’s like, Okay, where is my support group? What are my you know, where’s my network of sisters that provide me with energy, and I’m gonna meet with them, you know, during the work day, I’m not going to do it in the evening, I’m not going to do it some odd hour, I’m going to actually put it on my calendar during the work day, because that recovery is important for me, and therefore it is in my calendar, just like every other meeting. So those are some of the things that I think about when I’m trying to cope and it makes sure my energy stays balanced and full. I love that.

Lori Patton Davis
I just wanted to add a couple of things one as we’re talking about this conversation I I think we’re saying it without saying it, but I don’t want it to go miss that. For us. It’s not just racism. So there is a highly gender peace even as we’re talking about time and where we need to be and work like these are all expectations. I don’t really see a lot of black men dealing with it. I don’t The a lot of my white colleagues dealing with it. And so I really feel like one, when we talked earlier about, you know, doing all of the work and all of that. Part of doing that is because we know that if it’s not done, right, it has unique consequences for us as black women. So we end up doing it anyway, just because, right. But there, there is a piece of this conversation that I just think it’s important, you know, that we can’t forget that there is it’s something about being a black woman, you know, makes us feel like, we need to be at graduation, or makes us feel like we need to advise this particular group or that, you know, these are not expectations that everybody else feels. And so, as I am, you know, mentoring black women, and you know, we’re having conversations about, you know, should I do this? Do I need to, you know, go to this. And the advice has really been consistent in terms of, you know, just be undeniable, right? If you’re going up for tenure, or you’re trying to go for promotion, there are certain things that, you know, if you’re at a research and existing University, or whatever, is very rare that as people are deliberating on your case that they’re going to say she didn’t show up for graduation. Right. But that’s talking about your articles, you know, what I’m saying? So it’s like, in terms of thinking about that strategy around promotion, you do need to do your teaching, research and service, like you’re literally being paid to do that. But you can exercise and again, I don’t think we always think we can exercise more flexibility. And, you know, the places where we’re visible, right, you get one NIH grant, they don’t care anyway, like, there are ways you can navigate around this so that you’re not feeling stretched, and we always feel stretched, I have felt it, you know, and I’m full professor, you know, but I felt it. But I’ve also felt more comfortable one, when I’ve said no, and this is before I was for learning to say no. But also understanding what it feels like to be pushed out, because I’m not meeting institutional expectations around what it means to be a black woman in this space, meaning as a black woman in this space, the expectation is that you do all of this, understanding that sometimes we can be pushed out or pushed away, because we refuse, and you can be undeniable, and you can also refuse many of these things it but it takes time to understand, okay, I refuse to do that, I understand that there’ll be consequences. But, you know, I these are the consequences I’m willing to deal with. And if it’s tenure promotion, look at your guidelines, there are specific guidelines, there’s a process in the event that you’re not treated fairly, you know, to address that, if you’re, you know, a staff member, I think the parameters can become a little more different unless you’re unionized. But I just I just wanted to put that out there that the uniqueness really is the racism, sexism, and all of these other pieces that make it uniquely difficult for us to say no, or make it uniquely difficult to not show up and make it uniquely difficult to understand what the implications are that maybe we won’t be believed or we won’t be given the benefit of the doubt, or, you know, all of these pieces that you know, we have to consider. And again, they all lead back to weathering, you know what I’m saying?

Raechele Pope
Conversation navigate and try

Lori Patton Davis
to remain alive, you know, in the process,

Raechele Pope
and then we can sometimes foreclose ourselves. Like for the longest time, you know, I felt that as this black woman who was also a mother of young kids, and I decided, okay, this is gonna be my priority. So I foreclosed for the longest time believing that I am making choices, and I was making them all on my own head. So I’m thinking I’m never going to be full. I am not going to go up for full because it would mean I would have to give up this kind of time these kinds of things. I haven’t done what they were expecting me to do. And I realized that I foreclosed now I had to check course correct very late in my career to do this differently. But So we have to listen to ourselves, dispel so many messages that we are giving ourselves. And to widen this conversation, find those support who can tell us, I can easily talk to some people and have them disabuse me of this thought. But part of that is, Oh, you got to do this on your own, or there’s only one way of doing this. And these messages say it did either impossible to do everything, or you must do everything. Right. And there are some other things. And I’m wondering what are some of those personal and community support that you find that have have helped you to survive and thrive in higher education? And that you wish you knew earlier in some cases, or you’re glad somebody mentioned this to you when you were in grad school, whatever it was, what are some of those personal community supports that help? Well,

Mary Howard Hamilton
I think that you’re Rochelle, you brought this up? We’re old. So me many, many years ago, there, there just wasn’t that type of community available for the sister scholars out there. And, and I have to admit, thankfully, the start of the of the community support for me, thankfully, it was when I was in my undergraduate and graduate career, because I had, I had, I was in the special Support Services Program at the University of Iowa. And I had these wonderful sister scholars, and and they are minoritized women who helped me understand my full potential. One of them. Sherry’s very familiar with a rusty Barcelo. Dr. Barcelo helped me immeasurably, immeasurably, because I was about to leave the University of Iowa, the first day orientation, and if it hadn’t been for Dr. Barcelo, I don’t know where I’d be right now. I had wonderful scholars who helped mentor me and my graduate career, Dr. Colleen Jones, and she helped me understand how how to be a great professional in student affairs. Once I got out. It was, oh, it was a rock. It was a rocky road because we weren’t, we weren’t in the spaces. So there, there were a couple of white men, white men who came along and helped me out. Now I’m not saying that. Well, they, they did help me out because one white man in particular became my doctoral chair at North Carolina State University, Dr. Norm springball. He he was the one that got me into Dock into my dock program at North Carolina State. After that, you know, you know, we started having the Rochelle Pope’s and myself and several other scholars entering the field, thankfully, who helped also paved the way for the Lori Patton, Davis’s and Sherry Watts and others. But it was Rocky, it was Rocky in a very early going. And I remember I remember early on in the field where I was told not to write about blacks black stuff. Yeah. You remember that? Rochelle, they told me I will not continue if I wrote anything about anything related to minoritized people or students. So very early on those writings from early Mary Howard Hamilton, in the archive somewhere on a where to heck they are, I never did. But I had to do that. But once I became tenure, game on, it became another it became another adventure. So anyway, that just wanted to kind of share that it was Rocky in the beginning. But thankfully, I had some really good mentors in my undergraduate and graduate career.

Raechele Pope
You have become such a mentor. For so many black women, I can’t talk to a black woman scholar. And I say, Okay, who are some of those important mentors for you? And if they’re not you, they are someone mentored by you? Yeah,

Paris Wicker
exactly. That was what I was gonna say. You know, I think the, you know, Mary has reached out been very intentional. I think her gift and capacity to be a mentor and a guide has always been, you know, just so clear. And just so actually meaningful. It’s you know, her, she tailors how She provides support to what you need. And she does it, I hope it gives her energy to do it, but she certainly gives a lot of energy that’s so meaningful. So I think that I would echo that. Raechele, and you too. I mean, I think your guidance and willingness to listen and, you know, negotiate all of that, you know, I’m the one that’s in the mid career, I’m, you know, I’m the I’m the one who really, is really part of the Mary Rochelle generation. But too young, it’s a long story how this all happened. But I got to stay around a little longer. And, and so I, I keep looking at them and saying, Can I go with you yet? But when I’m thinking about the, you know, appears mentioned about the whole life, kind of looking, and your question, Rochelle, about how do you, how do you cope, what is your way of surviving? And I have found that one of the most importantly, you know, I live in Iowa City, you know, I’m at a predominantly white institution, everything that Lori said about the particular expectations of black women and that uniqueness of our, our existence, you know, I feel that all the time, I feel it in the town, when I’m not, you know, it doesn’t matter what I’m doing. I am Cherie watt professor at the University of Iowa when you’re in this town, you know. And so I look for spaces where people don’t know who I am. And so I and I look to travel in places where people don’t know who I am, because in a town like this, that you are unidimensional, you know. So I will say the places the unique place that everyone laughs because I mentioned the unique place that I find myself where no one knows me, and I can just be a fan is wrestling, watching my kid wrestle and go into the unit. I mean, it’s an odd spot, but it’s a spot that nobody knows who you are, they don’t care, they just love you, because you love the sport. And there’s something so freeing about being able to be in that space and love something that you you know, everyone enjoys. And most of the time people stay focused on that I don’t get the crazy, you know, racism drama that you would expect or anything like, I don’t get that there because we are all speaking the same language. So I would say, finding some space where you can be more than one dimensional. You know, and usually, for me, those are in sport, Dom kinds of things, or things that are associated with my kid. So that would be my, that has been a necessary part of my coping and finding a space where I can be more than just one thing.

Mary Howard Hamilton
I love that I now that I’m done with graduate school, and in the faculty between the pandemic and a PhD and having both of my children while I was in graduate school, I do feel like I’ve lost a lot of who am I? Who am I have? I don’t know. Yeah, I don’t know. And I feel like this this year has been a year of discovering like, who am I outside of Dr. Paris wicker, which is still just new, it’s just a year, a year old but But what am I outside of being a mom who am I outside of being a wife and I but I love that idea share about being more than uni dimensional and and my undergraduate degree is in vocal performance and I did singing performing, but I got away from that like what hobbies people like What hobbies do you do? I don’t know. I don’t have time for hobbies. But I have been explicit about coming back to singing coming back to singing coming back to playing the piano. And that has been just soul giving to me started singing in the church choir again. And I’m like, Oh yes, I forgot how much joy and love it that gave me and and I like that I now run the book fair at my daughter’s school. And so they don’t see me as Dr. Wicker they see me as the parent, you know, helping them ensure all kids have books. So I just love that I just want to echo that idea that for me personally that has given me joy that I did not expect to see like I have worked so hard. I have grinded away to get to this point to become a doctor to be at this level. But in the end, the greatest joy are the things that I do outside of that like getting those initials now affords me the opportunity to do these other things and I guess I’ve been surprised at how I think healing. It has been to remember to remember who I am outside of higher ed you

Lori Patton Davis
So, I will revisit the mentoring piece too, because I think I am an effective mentor because it was effective mentors, mentoring was modeled for me. And so that’s been incredibly meaningful. To have Mary pretty much throughout my career in student affairs and higher ed. And Raechele, I think I told you this before, just what it meant, you know, to be introduced to your work at Bowling Green, and it stuck with me in terms of how I saw myself as a scholar, and what I like to write about right and not being I got told, you know, don’t do work on you know, you don’t want to study this because you get pigeonholed. And I’m like, that there is this space of doing stuff around black culture centers, and you know, doing that, though, at Bowling Green, it was like, Yeah, you want to do grass, like, that’s more diverse. But anyway, um, being able to see perspectives that resonated with me in the literature, that sort of that and Mary making me become a faculty member, like those things have been really critical for me. So believe it or not one of the things that allows me so if I’m, I feel overwhelmed by being mother and spouse and feel overwhelmed by job things, the thing that takes me back, and I mentioned this earlier, is doing work and writing about black women. So I’m writing about our experiences, our experiences, but I’m in there, too. And so it’s almost a way of journaling. So everything I’m writing, there’s either a little bit or a lot of me in there, to just get it out of my head, right. And so that is really freeing to me. But I find it really important to be in collaborative spaces with, you know, other black women saw nearly every day, I’m in a zoom session with other black women, and we’re talking about what’s going on with life. And then I’m like, Girl, what are you working on? So I’m working on this. And I’m like, and so is that sort of communal space, even though it’s virtual. And the book, I can’t remember if we mentioned this already in this conversation. So I’ve been reading arrested resistance by Trisha Hersey. And, you know, this whole idea that rest is a Divine Right, right. Like, I don’t need to deserve it. And I’ve just gotten more comfortable. If I feel like taking a nap, yep, I’m gonna take a nap, I’m gonna watch bridgerton You know, I’m just going to do these things. And I feel like there’s some sort of opportunity cost that I’ve lost, because, you know, I didn’t write or I didn’t work on something, you know, work related. And I think just how we think about community has to be a little different than how I think it has to be different in ways similar to how we’ve had to think differently about the family structure, right, like community can look a whole bunch of different ways, and can be unique to what our needs are. And so I think that’s the biggest thing, you know, finding different pockets of community. So I don’t have to just go to one place for support, I can go to multiple places and people for support so so that I never feel like and I have heard this before from students saying, well, we knew you were busy, so we don’t want to bog you down like I’m encouraging them, no five, multiple, so multiple networks. So it’s never a heavy lift for any one person or group but you have all of these different resources to pull from. And so doing that and then just sort of letting the academy be with the academy is going to be and letting life be what life is going to be. So I guess it’s compartmentalizing, but I feel like I take my whole self wherever I am. And what I’m doing but yeah, that’s how I think and a lot of prayer, because I think about the Academy of spiritual warfare honestly. But this finding the spaces where I can contemplate, reflect, pray and just understand that there are people but it’s to me it’s bigger. There’s a larger I don’t know by Spirit, whatever, that we’re navigating through, and I see that for what it is, and try not to direct it towards any particular person or group but understanding it’s, it’s principalities, it’s, it’s something larger than just the physical space of the academy. Right?

Raechele Pope
Yeah, I look at that I look at us and realizing that people are going to need stuff. And, and I operate, you know, I swear, this is my Catholic upbringing, I operate that I’m not doing enough for enough. And often enough, right, so and so I operate in that space, and recognize that sometimes, sometimes the littlest thing that you offer is all that somebody was looking for, stopping to ask somebody, Hey, what’s going on with you know, I mean, really, how are you? I can’t solve what they’re dealing with. But to give that five minute, respite is sometimes enough. And it’s all I got to give, because I got a nap waiting for me. All I got to get into that moment. And that’s important. And I think we can do that. So I want to shift just a little bit as we’re, you know, getting towards the end of this a little I’m gonna, I’m gonna shift us into talking about joy, I have been reading so much about the need for joy. So many people looking at black folks looking at black women, you know, are ready to stop in that space of the pain and the tragedy. And so yeah, I do want you to recognize that that is a reality that is going on, and it is being caused by these systems in which we operate. At the same time, that is not my whole experience. And, you know, Sherry, in a conversation we had outside of this, and we got to talk about joy, and every time you talk to parents, she’s gonna remind you to talk about but she didn’t even say the word to me while I look at her, I had to start, where’s my joy? Where’s my start looking for. But I really think that we can spend a little bit of time here talking about how that is our experience as well. And that we need to highlight and allow that to be in Us at these other times. So parents, why don’t we Why don’t you start us off there?

Mary Howard Hamilton
Yeah, thank you. Yeah, Joy, I think about it a lot, how to get it, how to keep it, how to attain it. And you’re right. And part of it, again, is keeping it in perspective that, you know, as someone who is, you know, empathic and highly sensitive, you know, if you think about all the ways in which this world can hurt you how broken this world is, it’s so easy to get very depressing. And sometimes I allow myself, I just have days, it’s like, okay, on Saturday, for one hour, I’m just gonna, like, feel the burden of the world for our pray about it, and then move on. So I think it’s important to realize that we’re in a system that causes a lot of suffering. And I never want to forget that I don’t want to ignore it. But at the same time, I realized there’s so much joy in and part of it is having young kids now because they see joy, anything a little leaf, like my daughter brought a little she’s like, just look at it, look how many students, you know, just the mystery of life like, and I feel really inspired by that. And so I really try to think about what are the ways that we can find joy in the work that we do in higher ed, I see it a lot through my students, which has been a great joy, the joy that they bring the passion that they bring, and reminding people that and thinking about joy does not mean that you’re not acknowledging the suffering, right. I think sometimes people think that it’s either or, if you’re talking about joy, you should be talking about all the other things that are going on, but they need it both. And I’ve been doing some time, some reading, trying to study folks who have done social justice work and civil rights work, and they said, Oh, rest and joy, and humor and laughter, that was all a part of it, that fuels us so that you can do the work so that you can continue on. And again, seeing that as as non optional. So I encourage my students to think about delight. I asked them, like, what did you do that brought you delight today? Like, I don’t know. And I would ask them, or what was something you did as a kid that you still do right now? Right? And it forces you to think like, oh, what what? You know, maybe there are ways so it takes work, but I definitely believe it’s the small things that you do consistently over time. Like it helps support you, lift you up, fulfill you in a way so those are things that I tend to do I like I say music is a big part of that for me, but making connections with people Bridgerton I’m definitely I’ve been Bijan fit Tip TV. But it’s important. So I try to encourage students and practicing myself. It’s like it’s non optional. This is actually a part of what it means to succeed. Think about joy, think about the light, just as much as all the other things.

Raechele Pope
Sharing a joy is such a big part of you, and so important that this is a part of this conversation to add. Yeah,

Paris Wicker
I mean, I think Paris said it beautifully. I mean, I think all of those things I, I would highlight too. And I think there’s also a part of me that wants to think about my joy. as pure as it can be undefined to me. And, and I think that it goes to something else, that’s a thread through this conversation, I sometimes think that we, by putting pressure on ourselves by what we understand, black folk are supposed to do, when we see ourselves externally and looking in, you know, it’s like Lori said, there are these expectations of black women and what black women are supposed to do. They’re these x. So we start to see ourselves as other people see us, rather than how we want to be seen. So I realized that sometimes people ask me how I’m doing. And they’re asking me in a particular way, because they want to hear the plight of suffering of black people that day, you know, and I am like, I, I want to consciously not respond to that, because there are more things in my life that are joyful than my suffering. I mean, and so I want to focus on that. So I, I guess I’m, I’m when I’m thinking about joy, these days, I’m thinking about how not to get tripped up and start to talk about suffering, as we always do. And even with each other. It’s like, you know, we want to talk about the man bringing us down the institution bringing us down, all of that is truth. And we have so many other things that provide us with sustenance, that I would like to focus more on those when we’re asking each other about how our souls are today. Yeah.

Lori Patton Davis
Again, honestly, and this might sound like but one of the things that gives me so much joy is Black Twitter. And, I mean, I just, I have so many reals, like things that I say, because I know that’s the thing I can go back to, and it will make me laugh immediately. So the laughter and joined us on Black Twitter, I think, can lift me up in in an instant, especially when it’s not that really heavy and Black Twitter can make a nice joke out of it, like, I’m so bad. And then you know, music, play, like I have a soundtrack depending on you know, what day it is. And that’s the thing, really, I don’t somebody, I hope somebody is studying this because I can listen to, you know, Renaissance on the way to campus, and I ready, even I want to go, you know, but it’s a couple of songs I can put on and like, I’m ready, you know, like, let’s do it. Um, so music, you know, is very healing all kinds of music. Are can be very healing, and then just having good people who listen, like to listen, who believe me who validate it, and they’re not trying to give me advice, you know, but they listen to it. And they get it right. And they can help me think through like, that brings me tremendous joy to get that one thing, you know, when it’s like you have a conversation and you’re like, I don’t believe it. I just, you know, and then you talk to the one person and I’m like, oh, no, they did you know, and just because I can release it, right, like, I don’t need to send an email to that person and pop off or anything. I just needed somebody to help me. Get out of this headspace. Yep. And confirm. No, I’m not crazy. I’m not tripping. They really did. Come for you right there and you don’t have to waste the energy going back. It happened. Yes, it happened. We’re moving on. And then of course, yes. You know, my children. I have a daughter right now running around outside this door that you all do not see who is ready to go to campus with me. But it just their joy and forgiveness and bounce back is so inspirational and aspirational for me. And just a reminder, I don’t have to stay. And like you said share Like I don’t have to stay in this heavy place. Thank you.

Mary Howard Hamilton
And Joy, joy comes for me it comes quick and easy as I as I would age and sage in the stage I am in life, everything is joyful for me every single thing in the universe. However, I do want to say that just coming back from the continent, and from South Africa, I’ve been over there, I’ve been over to the continent, I’ve been to South Africa, but not 10 times or so now over the past 1516 years. And the first time I went, I understood, when I came back, I understood gratefulness and joy. Because when you see our people living in townships, and you see how happy they are, with what they have, that now that those tapes replay everyday in my head, every, like, joy for me is just what I’ve got. Again, if you saw where our people are around the world, and the little things that make them so happy and so grateful, we are blessed beyond measure, trust me. I mean, trust and believe we are blessed beyond it. So that and reading the Bible every day also helps me with controlling my attitudes. I’m like, I’m like Lori, there’s some people that piss me off so bad. I want to just, you know, y’all came for me, but then I have to say you missed. So I’m just gonna let it go. You miss it, you miss. And I’m bigger than this. And so it’s it’s maturity, its age stage. But again, it’s it’s having seen others in places and spaces where they have so little, so very little compared to what you have, which makes you were millionaires. Literally. We are literally millionaires if you were to go over and to look excited. You’ve been there. Rochelle, you’ve been? You’ve been to South Africa. You know what I’m talking? Yeah, those of you have been Y’all know what I’m talking about. So that makes me grateful every day. And of course, you know, my gardening and everything. So I’m a happy camper.

Raechele Pope
There you go. There you go. This has been you know, I am sorry that we’re running out of time. I’m thinking we’re going to have to, to close. But I want to thank you all so much this has been so well, it was the look that Lori was talking about when you tell that story. And somebody says that you don’t have to use all you can use the shorthand. All I got to do is have somebody give me that look. Yes. She said I heard it. Okay. Now I don’t have to go off. But there are other times. And so this, this gave me that sense of Oh, thank you. Thank you. I am I’m telling you right now, I think we need to come back and have another conversation where we can talk about change and restructuring higher education so that it is a more affirming and laboratory space for black women. And I think I think this is a group of folks I want to have that conversation with. And so until then, I just thank you for doing this. This conversation has been in some ways both sobering and hopeful. It has brought joy it’s made me smile, and it’s made me know you better. So thank you for your leadership in this space. I also need to thank our sponsors here on and Routledge Taylor, and Frances, we appreciate your support. Huron is a global professional services form that firm that collaborates with clients to put possible into practice by creating sound strategies, optimizing operations, accelerating digital transformations and empowering businesses and their people to own their future by embracing diverse perspectives, encouraging new ideas, and challenging the status quo here on create sustainable results for organizations they serve. Routledge Taylor and Francis is the world’s leading academic publisher in education, publishing a wide range of books, journals and other resources for practitioners, faculty, administrators and researchers. They have welcomed Stylus publishing to their publishing program and are thrilled to enrich their offerings in higher education, teaching Student Affairs, professional development, assessment and more. Routledge is proud to support student affairs now view their complete catalogue of authoritative education titles at routledge.com forward slash education and of course I have to send a huge shout out to to our producer Natalie Ambrosey who does all of our behind the scenes works to make us look good and sound good. We love the support of these important conversations from our community. You can help us reach even more folks biceps. subscribing to our podcasts YouTube and weekly newsletter, announcing each new episode and more. So if you’re so inclined, you could also leave us a five star review. I’m Raechele Pope. Thanks again to my amazing sister friends and colleagues doctors, Mary Howard Hamilton, Lori Patton Davis and Paris Wicker and to all of you watching or listening to Student Affairs NOW. Thank you and take time for yourself and your sisters.

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