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Rose Ann E. Gutierrez
But I think especially for our audience, our members are those listening is really thinking about, you know, given the current social political climate right now, specifically, as we think about anti immigrant and just the hostile climate climate for undocumented immigrants, our students is that what will it take for us to build together while dismantling our current systems? And, you know, building together is going to take a lot of work. And and I think people need to remember that this is work that those before us have done, right. It’s not going to happen overnight. So again, what will it take for us to continue to build together collectively, while dismantling our current systems?

Keith Edwards
Hello, and welcome to Student Affairs NOW, I’m your host Keith Edwards. Today I’m joined by three scholars who have researched thought about and written about the experiences of undocumented students. Today’s guests include the editor and two contributing authors of the new book equitable and humanizing research policy and practice with and for undocumented collegians in the United States. They are particularly focused on expanding the conversation around undocumented students in higher education. We’ll be discussing the complexities of who these students are their experiences and how higher ed can better serve them. Thank you all for joining us today. Student Affairs now is the premier podcast an online learning community for 1000s of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We release new episodes every week. On Wednesdays find details about this episode or browser archives at studentaffairsnow.com. This episode is sponsored by Routledge, Taylor and Francis view their complete catalogue of education titles at routledge.com/education. This episode is also sponsored by Huron, a global professional services firm that collaborates with clients to put possible into practice. As I mentioned, I’m your host, Keith Edwards, my pronouns are he him his I’m a speaker, author and coach, helping hired leaders in organizations advanced learning, leadership and equity. You can find out more about me at Keith edwards.com. And I’m recording this from my home in Minneapolis, Minnesota at the intersections of the ancestral homelands of both the Dakota and the Ojibwe peoples. I would love to get the conversation started and hear from some of our guests Dr. Kayon Hall we’re gonna start with you.

Kayon A. Hall
Hi, Thank you for having us here today. My name is Dr. Kayon Hall. I’m an assistant professor of Higher Education and Student Affairs at Kent State University and my pronouns are she her hers and I’m excited to be in communion with you all today.

Keith Edwards
Great. Rose Ann, we’re gonna go over to you.

Rose Ann E. Gutierrez
Hi, everyone. Keith, thank you so much for again, having us today on this podcast. My name is Dr. Rose Ann Gutierrez. I use the pronouns she her hers, and I’m an assistant professor in the College of Education and Human Development at the University of Nevada, Reno.

Keith Edwards
Awesome. And Stephen? Yes,

Stephen Santa-Ramirez
yes. Hi, folks. I’m so happy to share space with you all today. Dr. Stephen Santa-Ramirez is I go by he him pronouns. I’m an assistant professor of higher education at the University at Buffalo, which is on the unseeded ancestral territory of the Asante peoples. And yeah, I’m ready to get this started. Thank you so much for having us, Keith.

Keith Edwards
Awesome. So glad to have all of you here. Let’s begin by framing this a little bit. For folks who maybe are less familiar with the issues of undocumented students? Can you give us a brief explanation of undocumented students and the issues they’re facing just to kind of ground this? And then we’ll, we’ll make it more complex from here? Rose Ann? I think we’re gonna start with you. Yeah.

Rose Ann E. Gutierrez
So I think, before we even think about undocumented students and the experiences that they face on college campuses, it’s really important for us to zoom out first and foremost, to understand these concepts of legality or illegality and documented Vnus, wouldn’t frameworks of power. So what I mean by that is that these terms are social constructs, that a lot of things in this world are socially constructed. So we, as people have created these terms. And so again, when we think about, you know, framing this conversation within the context of power, we have to ask ourselves, well, who has been able to construct these terms? And who has been empowered to be able to do that? Right. So again, as we think about legality, and these, and undocumented Ness, you know, the in the history of the United States immigration, and what we know today, as immigration, and immigration laws didn’t really start until the early 1900s. And when we look at the US timeline within, like the immigration timeline of the United States, there were not necessarily a lot version prior to the 1900s. Okay, and so again, let’s bring it back to you know, who has been able to construct these terms and these concepts, so when it comes to legality and undocumented pneus, I often whenever I introduce this topic to folks that have never heard these terms, these terms, or this is not necessarily part of the research, but they do care about undocumented students, right. So for example, when I talk about this in my class, I always showed this picture of Jose Antonio Vargas, and he’s a Filipino journalist, filmmaker, and he’s undocumented. And so Jose, Antonio Vargas is was there’s this image of him speaking and In the background, there is this image where it says, you know, apartheid was legal slavery was legal, the Holocaust was legal colonialism was legal. And again, when we think about all of those things, legality has not necessarily just been about, you know, how we think about it. It’s, it’s, it’s always been this construct, like who has been who has been able to construct these terms in terms of power. So I think that’s really important for us to understand, because the students that we serve it and where they are at on campuses and how it impacts them, we really need to look at, you know, legal and state policies and who have who, who are in power, constructing those laws that affect them. Oh, I

Keith Edwards
love you, you took us way back to the beginning the broadest possible concept, where do we fit in these words come from? I love it. Thank you for doing that. That’s really important context for us. Kayon, what would you add? Yeah,

Kayon A. Hall
I also want to extend Rose Ann points, you know, that immigration policies in the US have always been exclusionary in nature, right, you see them looking at the Chinese exclusionary act. And so those are the some of the examples that have denied people the right to be in the United States. So it’s not uncommon, it’s not far fetched to believe that we are here today, just kind of like, consider extending that looking at it from an institutional level, we see that, you know, laws like the plier, versus two of my teammates to say that it’s unconstitutional to prevent undocumented students, anyone actually, from getting a free education. So you find that undocumented students at the K through 12 level are not navigating the same kinds of challenges that folks at a higher education level are navigating. So these very complex policy landscapes makes it increasingly harder for undocumented students at a college level to actually persist or get through schooling a really good and wholesome way. Right. So for example, we think of their state state levels that are stays up back undocumented students from attending public institution. So thinking about states like Alabama, and Georgia, for example, let’s say that you cannot access a state institution. And you know, a lot of undocumented folks are low income, first gen. And so you find that they don’t have the financial means to attend college. That is, that is privates, you know, there aren’t, they’re unable to access financial aid because of their status. And they’re not going to actually access state aid based on where they’re living. So we find that some states would give in state tuition, for example, New York States, for example, and California that are more on Buffy friendly, but you have states that are more restrictive in nature. And then you have states that are limited in terms of how they get aid. So for example, states like Pennsylvania, give aid to undocumented students, but you must have DACA. So the other issue is that DACA is tightly coupled to funding.

Keith Edwards
And then also tell us briefly what DACA is.

Kayon A. Hall
So that was kind of a deferred action for childhood arrival as administered under the Obama administration that provide a temporary status to your status for folks who are undocumented who entered the US before 2017 2007? I think it was six, seven, like I said, Yeah. So what was happening? It was I’m sorry. So what’s happening is that, you know, folks who have DACA have a temporary reprieve, it doesn’t mean that they’re safe, right? They have a temporary freeze two years and have to constantly renew their DACA, which also is very costly. And then you have folks who are seeing right now who do not have DACA, who do not have the protections of temporary stay of deportation, they cannot get social security numbers, they cannot get driver’s license, and they cannot get any kind of state aid that is tied to DACA, or institutional aid or scholarships tied to DACA. So it makes it quite difficult for undocumented students. So what I’m really highlighting here is that there’s an even within the group, there are differences, right. So those who have DACA have access to a little bit more now that they’re safe. But they have access to a little bit more resources than those who do not have DACA, which makes it really complex for the students.

Keith Edwards
Yes, definitely. What do you want to add here?

Stephen Santa-Ramirez
Or? Yeah, well, I want to echo the sentiments that my colleagues just shared. And to add, you know, I think first I want to say that these folks are just brilliant, knowledgeable, talented folk, right. And that it’s not always from a deficit perspective, right? Although there’s a lot of like, anti immigrant socio political, socio political climate issues, rhetoric, practices and policies at all levels. And I love how Dr. Gupta has mentioned, you know, taken us back to like meso level like so. And when we think about these companies, we have to think micro macro meso levels, because it all impacts right and something that I always share too, is policy is like number one law and policy isn’t Number one, we’re thinking about undocumented students because there’s there’s all types of federal, state and institutional level policies that are impacting these students, whether positively and or negatively. Right. So that’s something that, you know, when we talk later on in conversation about kind of like implications or things that voc in higher ed, Student Affairs can can consider in better supporting these folks is really digging deeper into policies and investigating our institutional policies and trying to enact some transformational changes. But, you know, as as, as Ken shared and as as Rose Ann shared, right, so there’s DACA. So when you talk about framing, and like, what kind of issues are happening? I mean, these are not new, right. DACA, as Dr. Hall mentioned, was enacted as an executive order under President Obama administration in 2012, which very limited community members from undocumented immigrant communities were eligible for that. One of the issues now is that once the once Trump became president and that administration began their journey in 2017, they rescinded that program, right, so since 2017, there hasn’t really been access to any new applications to be reviewed and folks to be accepted. So the majority of our undocumented students now that are entering college do not have the protections of DACA. Right, do not do not have that two year renewal, which, which is a major issue, right? So DACA was never supposed to be a permanent fixture. Right. It was supposed to be it was always supposed to be something that was temporary. And unfortunately, now we’re year 12. And there has been no bipartisan agreement in Congress to pass some type of, you know, clear plat path to citizenship for not just undocumented students, but immigrants largely in this country. Right. So that is a major issue that folks are facing is not having any type of protections as they’re navigating the world here in the States, but also on our college campuses. And and as Keon mentioned, there are some states that had been very intentional with only offering certain resources and benefits and scholarships and things of that nature. So those who are DACA beneficiaries, but the majority of our students now are not right. And when we think about kind of like the state level, so that’s more like federal, at the state level, there’s a lot going on right now. There’s anti immigrant policies that have been passed in states like Florida, and Texas and Arizona, they’re passing what we what we’re calling now, SB 17 2.0, which SB 17 was enacted in 2010. And it was basically to show me your papers law in the state of Arizona, where government officials and police can legally racially profile those who de deemed as immigrants, right. And unfortunately, the media has done a really good job at trying to portray who is an immigrant in this country, which there’s really no one look to an immigrant is right and not one experience. And they’re proposing to reenact something similar there, right in the state of Texas as well. So there’s a lot of anti immigrant legislation that’s being proposed, and, and possibly is going to be passed, unfortunately. And all of this impacts our college students, so we have to look at like the larger socio political climate, the state level climate, because our students are not confined to a ball of our institutions, and even some of our institutions aren’t protecting aren’t protecting students, right? So so we as higher education professionals, and folks who say that we want to holistically support these students, we have to think beyond the parameters of our institutions.

Keith Edwards
Yeah. Stephen, could you tell us about the t shirt you’re wearing today? For folks who can’t see you? Could you tell us what it is about.

Stephen Santa-Ramirez
It is just as unafraid, educator and as basically someone who is an advocate and outward ally and co conspirator to those that are in supportive undocumented communities. So identify as an unafraid, educator and use my privileges as someone who’s not undocumented. But has done a lot of work with undocumented immigrants in and out of higher education. You know, for good, right, and not to speak on behalf of them, but to speak in support of them. So I am an unafraid educator and supporting these communities.

Keith Edwards
I love it. I love it. And thanks for wearing that T shirt today. Let’s, let’s thank you for the macro mezzo micro levels, state and federal laws. They’re really great grounding here. But you’ve really expanded in this book, you’ve really worked hard to expand the perspective around undocumented students and who they are. So let’s, let’s talk a little bit about that. Kayon, I think you’re gonna kick us off here?

Kayon A. Hall
Sure. Um, so there’s this misconception shown that undocumented folks are Latina. And I think a lot of that probably is due to make the discourse that the media plays a significant role in shaping and fixing our understanding about particular issues. So you look on the news and look around all folks were talking about undocumented are LatinX, but that’s not the case. Right? So for me, I grew up in New York City, and there are lots of folks who are undocumented, but they’re black. And it’s interesting the way how people constantly phrase it, because you know, black people move in the same way, same ways as other people do. They are migrate, they are getting on planes or overstaying their visa as they are crossing physical land borders, right. So the idea that folks who are undocumented are not black is a very flawed one. And so what happens is that we find that undocumented black students are facing double invisibility, right? Because no one sees them, because they’re you, they fall outside of our imagination of who could be undocumented. And so you find that they navigate different challenges, right, because we’re navigating a society that is very anti blocking nature, and anti immigrant in nature. And so one could assume that, well, you’re not dealing with the immigration aspect, because you’re not identified as an undocumented immediately. But you are navigating an anti black, very racist society. And so you find that many folks who are undocumented are black are detained, or navigating a criminal, the criminal justice system, and so you’re locked up and then add this your status on top of that, which compounds your experience for undocumented black students, you know, there are small percentage undocumented individuals in general, they’re small percentage. So around about 10 point 5 million estimated or undocumented folks in the US have that number, about 600,000 are black, and then looking at folks who are in higher education, about 14% of them, right, so a very small number. And I think that can add to the way how we come to understand this issue. But the reality of it is that if we understand that people move, and that people are impacted by immigration and other structures in place, that we can understand that folks can be undocumented and black. At the same time. You know, I think a lot about, you know, thinking about undocumented folks and black people in the United States in general, you know, sociologists, Mersey, waters talked a lot about the Caribbean ionization of the US, in particular, in New York City, right, and thinking about proximity to the Caribbean, a lot of undocumented folks who are black are coming from the Caribbean. So they’re coming from islands, like Jamaica, from Haiti, from Cuba, right, and other countries in Africa as well. And a lot of that, you know, thinking back to going back to Rosen’s comment earlier about kind of like immigration policies, the Hartselle act of 1965 really paved the way for a lot more black immigrants to come to the US. Right. And if you know how immigration works, right, people tend to keep on coming back for family reunification to big cluster, in fact, that New York City in particular has a very large black immigrant community, so many of them are navigating CUNY and SUNY institutions. Some of the challenges that they face based on my conversation, is that a lot of the scholarships are tied to folks from particular regions, right. They also are navigating. They’re encountering faculty members and administrators, who have a hard time understanding that they are black and undocumented. At the same time, one of the folks I spoke to in one of the studies I conducted said that, you know, I said to her that I’m undocumented, and she said, But you have a high school diploma, are you sure your question someone like that is just wild to me, right? They’re saying that they’re undocumented or not believing them. So you know, they are hyper visible in the sense of racially they’re hyper visible, like navigating space, but they’re invisible based on their immigration status. And that leads to feelings of isolation, you know, mental health issues as well. Because no one is really understanding their plights because they’re black and they fall outside of or social imaginaries about who undocumented. One annoying person is.

Rose Ann E. Gutierrez
Yeah, I’m off of that. Oh, Keith, did you want to say something?

Keith Edwards
Oh, go That’s awesome. I was just gonna say you want you also want to complicate this in a different way. So go for it. Yeah, yeah,

Rose Ann E. Gutierrez
um, a lot of you know, what Dr. Hall just said on relates very much to the population that I work with and are familiar with which is undocumented Asian or undocumented Asian American. So a lot of the things that I’m you know, Dr. Hall mentioned is really touching up on this concept, racialized illegality. And Laura Enrique is, um, she’s a social sociologist, and she wrote about this comparison between Latin gay students and Asian American students where, when it comes to racialized illegality, she defines us as you know, folks of racial racialized groups in the United States experience the legality or being undocumented differently and distinctly and and so when it comes to undocumented Asian and Asian and Asian Americans, they, they face this on an another term. Okay? I have another term for y’all. They experience the double the double bind. So Dr. Hall mentioned double invisibility for undocking black students and and occupation students experience this terminology called the double bind. And so this term was coined by a sociologist after unit show. And I’m Dr. Charles says that when it comes to undocumented Asian Americans, they are not necessarily racially profiled as undocumented. And what’s working against them is this pesky stereotype that folks who study Asian Americans know very well is the model minority myth or model minority stereotype. And what the model minority meddler stereotype is, is it’s this racialized narrative that Asians and Asian American students in higher education do not face challenges, or issues or problems, and that they do very well in school are successful, especially in subjects like stem. And the other thing that I wanted to mention about the model minority myth is that it reproduces anti black logic. Because if you are propping and elevating one student group up, then you’re basically saying, okay, cool, so why can’t that other group do it. And when you think about the history of the model, minority myth, and stereotype that really contemporarily took shape in the 1960s, and I say contemporarily, because this can be traced all the way back in the 1800s. So what we know about the model minority myth today took shape in the 1960s, during the Civil the height of the Civil Rights Movement, the Black Power movement was gaining a lot of support and traction during that time, and conservatives needed a narrative to say like racism is not happening in the United States. So let’s pop this group up to show people that, you know, these folks who have experience of being entered in Japanese, you know, Japanese internment camps are being excluded, like the Chinese individuals from the Chinese Exclusion are doing well. So it’s important that I give that history and context to be able to understand, you know, the model, the minorities model minority stereotype as it affects our undocumented Asian students, because the ways it manifests in their lives is that they are rendered invisible within the entire conversation. This conversation, like, you know, what Dr. Hall said, is very much racialized as a Latinate issue. And we’re not necessarily saying that, you know, that’s it, because what we’re saying is, you know, yes, it is, in a way, because there are a lot of Latin a folks, right Mexico, Latin America, South America, that are affected by this. And at the same time, there are so many other people in racial in these racialized groups who are also as well and we need to put a lens on and see that they go through these experiences as well. So for the students that I have worked with, in the past, as that concerned my study, even for and and the students that I have worked with, are primarily primarily live and have went to higher education institutions in California, we think of California as a predominately supportive state for undocumented students, immigrants. And at the same time, my students who did go to these higher education institutions, that even that did have support centers or undocumented spaces on campus still felt left out, they still felt like they actually did not belong in these spaces, because it was very much racialized as a space that wasn’t their own, whether that was language, symbols, food that they had at community gatherings. And so I think it’s important for us to think especially for those working with undocumented students, as practitioners, and even faculty, recognizing and unpacking even our own biases about who is included in this community, because there’s not a specific look, there really isn’t you can’t tell like, Oh, you’re undocumented, you know, like, that’s this, I won’t call that out and say that is racist, because you are thinking about a specific racialized stereotype about who you think, is undocumented. Right. And like I said before, in the beginning, legality of undocumented has always been about who has shaped these conversations and these concepts and who has been in power. Nobody is inherently, quote unquote, illegal, you know, nobody’s inherently undocumented. And so again, when it comes to the students that I’ve worked with, these students really felt like felt like they didn’t belong, and even when they told so similarly to what mentioned earlier, some of my students have even told people Um, that no, I am undocumented. So I have one particular student who was a student, what are they called? The one the students that give tours on campus? Why am I? Yeah, yeah. Wow. Like one of the students called give tours on campus.

Rose Ann E. Gutierrez
Oh my gosh, student tour guide, hilarious. So, um, one of my, you know, participants said, you know, she was a student tour guide. And so, um, she would tell folks that, you know, she’s undocumented, and she felt safe enough to share her story because she acknowledged that she, you know, she’s light skin, Korean American, and she’s a woman, she knew how people perceive her already is not a threat based on society’s understandings and imaginary than associations of who is a threat in the society. So she felt like she could share she wanted to use her position and privilege to be able to uplift other folks the stories who may not necessarily feel safe to do so. So she said, You know, I went documented and people and some folks were so surprised. Some individuals would say, No, you’re not. And again, back then Dr. Hall’s point, you have an undocumented individual telling you, they are undocumented, and you don’t believe them, which is wild to me, right. So again, um, it’s really important for us, especially if you’re working with undocumented students that you really unpack and deconstruct the meanings that you associate with that term to people.

Keith Edwards
Right, great, thank you. I love that. We’re complicating this and and you’re keeping us good on our history lessons here. Rose Ann, I really appreciate it. I love it. More history. Stephen, what do you want to add?

Stephen Santa-Ramirez
Sure, yeah. Well, one, I’m always in awe when I listen to these two brilliant scholars. Yeah, thank you, for other folks who please go read their scholarship, engage in their work, because it’s brilliant. It’s phenomenal. So thank you for allowing me to learn alongside you all today to you know, one, I love the different perspectives that we’re getting this conversation like Dr. Hall brought in like New York City in a lot of black undocumented folks that are often invisible in conversations around undocumented student support on college campuses, right or around the larger immigration policy conversations largely in our nation, right. Rose Ann talks a lot about undock you Asian folks from different parts of the country as well. And although I work with all undocumented folks from from various backgrounds, I think geographically does play a large part. You know, a lot of the students that I work with that are undocumented were from the state of Michigan, and Texas, and Arizona, predominantly, some border states right to Mexico, so a lot of Mexican undocumented folk and other folk from various countries in Latin and South America. And so I get to the privilege of working with a lot of like the next undocumented students predominantly right. And one thing that I actively tried to do in my scholarship, just this just reminded me as I’m thinking, Dr. Henry Cisneros, who’s a associate professor at the University of Texas as bustle, and also does a lot of great work with and alongside and for undocumented students, and undocumented queer students and Berkut in particular, always was on my dissertation committee, back in the day, and I remember him making this statement like, you know, we we are so accustomed in society to talk about the openness to narratives, right. So like the, or hurt the poor people narrative or the negative the deficit narrative. But there’s more right, so undocumented folks, I want to honor like Dr. from for bringing it into the conversation as I was a dog student navigating like this working with these communities. And so one thing that I actively work on is trying to Yes, share the messy parts of what’s happening at the institutional level at the state level at the federal level, right, which is really important. We have to talk about that, because that’s real life stuff that’s impacting these communities, but also like the other parts, like where are they finding joy, the assets and talents that they’re bringing to our college campuses, right, how they’re contributing to society. We are not a nation of immigrants, but the immigrants in our country have really worked and continue to do so much good for our country, right? And so that’s what I try to bring into the conversation in my work and with the community that I get to work with. So you’ll notice that I have multiple pieces around like, literally the assets and talents that they’re bringing into campus and starting various initiatives that really our administrators and our institutional agents should be leading like an undocumented mentoring program or applying for grants and starting various initiatives, and you know, I have students documents teams that started from scratch themselves a scholarship program in the state of Arizona, right. So I try to elevate those narratives. So that way, it’s not always kind of like the knees only student and things of that nature, which, you know, media does a really good job at that already. That’s placed in folks from just a deficit perspective, when really, they’re just human beings that are doing amazing things, and thriving. And unfortunately, many are just faced with various barriers as they’re trying to work on surviving and thriving outside of our college campuses. So, you know, when we think about framing and expanding our approach to this work, that’s something that I’m really intentional on is really bringing out the assets and talents, while also talking about the barriers and challenges and trying to, you know, dismantle whiteness, and xenophobia and racist nativism and things of that nature that are all impacting these communities. But also, like, let’s shed light on the other aspects of who these humans are, and how brilliant and talented that they are, and how privileged and honored we should be considering them to share space and offer their talents and their knowledge and skills on our college campuses nationwide.

Keith Edwards
Well, I love that I saw your piece and JC SD around, undock you joy. So I want to move us all into that space. So we have talked about some of the challenges, some of the legal issues, the issues of power, the issues of racism, all of these things and the challenges that these students face. And how do we bring in and I love a lot of the work in this book. And in other places, as Steven was just pointing to is not just around the challenges, but also and issues of equity that we need to work on is is unafraid, educators, as institutions, but also, you have an explicit focus on their humanity and their joy. So Stephen, I just want to invite you to say a little bit more about me sort of previously said, here’s, here’s why that is important. We want to have this, this and conversation, right, we can talk about their thriving and their humanity and their joy without ignoring the challenges and the institutional barriers and things that they’re facing in sports that they need. But let’s bring in that and perspective here. What do you what do you want to offer?

Stephen Santa-Ramirez
Yeah, thank you for asking Keith. And I will say I know Keith mentioned a couple of times this book. And for folks that are aren’t aware, it’s a special issue that Keith is referencing in new directions for higher ed, it came out in November 2023. So more recently, I was a special issue editor. And these two brilliant scholars here, Dr. Gutierrez and Dr. Hall also contributed articles to this. This special issue and a special issue is called equitable and humanizing research policy, and practice within foreign documented collisions in the United States. So I, you know, urge everyone to go and check it out, because there are seven amazing articles and then my intro, Editor’s Note chapter that really go, you know, beyond the focus of just the political narrative, as we mentioned earlier, and really talk about humanizing and equitable policies and practices with and for, and supportive undocumented students so so the joy peace Docu Joy piece is as you light up, I know it is you light up. And I’m excited. I’m excited about it. Right. It’s a piece that Dr. Fowler and I wrote together, and it was just really a joy to to write this piece, right. Dr. Hall and I talked a lot about one, you know, just just this notion of just bringing in other narratives beyond what the media usually portrays of who undocumented immigrants are right. And we do get to experience a lot of painful moments with our undocumented students, because life is life. And there’s a lot of challenges and barriers that we as we described, but there’s not a beautiful moments that we get to see and experience with them as well. So I remember Dr. Hall and I were just talking about joy and like working through our dissertation work. Separately, we went to different institutions, right, obviously did different dissertations, but with similar populations, and we talked about how there was a lot of joy, you know, throughout the narratives as well, and how can we, you know, bring that to the forefront and I will add, or preface by saying, you know, we didn’t term the we didn’t coined the term, undock you joy, right. So there’s undocumented scholars who have coined that term, but from our knowledge, there hasn’t been any like, peer review, empirical empirical articles around and Docu Joy particularly right. So we do credit people like you’ll see Mr. Hayes, which is an undocumented advocate, and artists out of California, who wrote a poem on a docu Joy right and something that we share in in this piece is When I went to anacor, the National Conference on Race and Ethnicity in 2019, I believe I met Yossi Martinez. And in his session, he said, You know, I urge you all that are doing work and research and community work alongside these communities, to bring out more of joyful conversations, right? And that I remember writing down that this is happening, right. So then Dr. Hall and I got together and we’re like, we have data, we have experiences, and let’s bring that into conversation. So we highlight, you’ll see more, Hey, isn’t that poem we open up that the article in the journal college student development that also came out in the fall of 2023. And, you know, it’s just, it’s just, again, another framing and other perspective and saying, you know, there is joy, amidst the chaos and myths, anti immigrant sentiments and policies and practice, there is joy. So we bring out like stories of their artistic joy and how the students and former or our former students, or undocumented, used different forms of art, whether that’s spoken word, whether that’s drawing for healing, and, and things of that nature are familiar with joy, community joy, right. And the people places and things that are literally bringing them joy and what they’re doing in their lives, to continue to maintain hope and joy amidst the chaos again, so that’s something that we thought was really important, and we wanted to highlight in his piece, and we just hope that it is an added contribution. So scholarship around this topic of undocumented students can

Keith Edwards
be present, I see you vibin.

Rose Ann E. Gutierrez
Know, I’m just like, I’m like, I just love this. I’m just a joyful person. And so as I hear you talk, I’m doctor sent that O’Meara’s about this I just also light up. And I know Dr. Hall, this is also your piece more than so I’d love to hear what you you know what you think about this, but I’m currently working on a manuscript right now that talks about like, undock you joy within the perspectives of the participants I’ve worked with. And so, um, I was thinking about this when I was doing my study, and it was my dissertation. And I was like, I want to go beyond ethics. You know, as researchers, we’re, we’re taught to be ethical. And then you know, we have to fill out the IRB, you have to follow a set of ethics or principle, I said, okay, cool, blah, blah, blah. But at the same time, you know, when it comes to our students, and the the population I work with, they’re already very much experiencing trauma in their lives on a daily basis. How do I treat them not just as participants not just like as, quote unquote, subjects of a study? How do I do this work with them, and for them, and bring out those conversations in a way through my methods that captures their humanity. And so I did a photo elicitation method. It was a multi phase study, and one of the methods was photo elicitation. So I asked them to take photos of places that made them feel like they belonged as an undocumented Asian person. And this is the bit that the part of the research that they enjoyed the most, because they have never, not never, but I’m a lot of the times folks don’t ask, especially researchers, books, don’t ask them what brings you happiness and joy. Researchers often want Rama or damage centered narratives as

Keith Edwards
a talk No, say that, again.

Rose Ann E. Gutierrez
Not me coming up with concepts, again, de damage centered narratives. Um, so there is damage center narratives is the concept that Dr. Eve talked, you know, came up with and written about and conceptualized that when we think about social science research, oftentimes, researchers associate rich data with trauma. And that is harmful to the communities that we, you know, serve and want to work with and really want to learn about. So how do we create, you know, actual Narratives that Inspire like, critical hope, but and joy, right. And so I think that’s for all of us, and I’ll just speak for all of us, correct me if I’m wrong, I don’t know, we want to humanize the ways that we work with undocumented students and folks it and so I think for me, I’ll give you a one tangible example. One will, too. Well, yeah. One to two of my participants, you know, said that when it comes to curating their space, so their, their rooms, their, their rooms, in their living spaces, they’re very intentional about it. So, um, but to have them put posters like on the corners or their walls, and have photos of friends and just put things that are important because especially for one of them, um, she’s been houseless before. So this is the first time that she has been able to create a space of her own, even if it’s in the corner of her bedroom. And to be able to hear that in her story through the photo that she took, you wouldn’t be able to necessarily capture that and interview data. And so the other one has moved constantly, for most of their lives. And I’ve I’ve known this individual, and they have moved every, like six months of their lives. And so this precarity when it comes to housing, right, we don’t think about that in association to Asian Americans. So like I said before, they are they experiences Double Bind, where they’re shielded from, you know, being racialized as undocumented, and while at the same time not receiving the support that they need, because people do not think they’re undocumented. So I bring all this up, because I think for all of us, it’s important to think of, especially as researchers, important to think about what are the methods or really the ways we engage with folks in research, especially undocumented folks, that brings out and captures their humanity, their happiness? Because even in the term even undocumented, right, like, that doesn’t encapsulate who they are as human beings. First and foremost.

Keith Edwards
There’s also a deficit term. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. Dr. Hall. I know you’re ready.

Kayon A. Hall
Sorry. Um, no. So I love the conversation about joy, and kind of like going back school Rosen’s comment about Eve talks work around data centered research. You know, I think a lot, I think of myself as an interdisciplinary scholar, and I pulled heavily from Black Studies and Sociology to shape the way how I think about things. And I think a lot about the work of Elizabeth Alexander around the black interior, right. And so she’s saying that we can acknowledge that these things are existing for black folks that really navigate in a very anti black space, a very white supremacist space. But what about the life giving moments that are happening simultaneously, the interior, right, and so I think a lot about my work in that way as well, to kind of like depart from these very data centric narratives. And how can I invite more spaces or more narratives, where undocumented folks are able to talk about their wonderful time. And so I’m just very specific methodologies. And in my piece in the book, The Stephens edit, different edited, I use weight work coming from Cristina sharp that’s saying that, you know, we exist in this world as racists, but we have to find a way to exist within the way. And that’s doing weight work, and wake work to to conceptualize what that may look like it looks like differently for different people. So wake work could be the piece that I wrote, choosing to study abroad, despite the complications that could happen. The fact that you may not be let back into the country, even though you have Advance Parole, that’s the week work is intentionally choosing to enjoy your time with your family and your friends. And these are Joy’s Joy’s since as well. And so I think that for me, it’s important to do that work. And so in also in a study I’m conducting currently, right now, I’m asking folks to talk about what does liberation look like for you? What does that mean? And so going back to Devin centered research, and Rose Ann, it’s common that we are prepared and trained to go into the fields to think about ethical considerations, how to collect data, how to do IRB, but very rarely, you know, I’ve heard if I’m wrong, are we asked to think about what does it mean when we’re leaving the fields? I think that Eve talk kind of gets at that in her comment about dentist centered research. And so for me, I tried to be very intentional about closing out my studies with something that kind of returns you to a space off of happiness. So in this like I’m doing right now, I asked folks to send me a love letter to write a letter of shelves to kind of round it out, because I’ve seen as coming in, and I’ve asked you questions, you’re talking about anti blackness, you’re talking about the challenges you’re facing, as someone who doesn’t have a status. And these things really drove a lot of trauma in your body that dislodged within you, and it’s harmful. So I never want to leave my interview or my conversations with undocumented folks on that notes. And so I wrap up my conversation with write a love letter to yourself, and I want you to return to it. So you can come back to a place that settles you. And that, to me is a form of joy. That to me is a form of weak work. And that to me is the ways that I respond to the call from folks like each talk to depart from damage centered research and damage into your practices.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, I love it. And I think there’s clearly implications around doing research and serving undocumented students but there’s so many more implications far beyond that. And when we’re talking about damage centered research, you’re also checking off some of my favorite words like hope, critical hope, liberation, joy, good work. agency in there, we wouldn’t have been go somewhere else. This is this has been fabulous. I really appreciate all of your contributions and your framing your context, your details, your, your your offerings, but we’re running out of time. So this podcast is called Student Affairs. Now, I always like to end by asking our guests what is with you now? What are you thinking? What are you troubling? What are you pondering, maybe related to this conversation or other things. And if you want to share where folks can connect with you, please go ahead and do that. Rose Ann, you’re, you’re joyful person you said. So what is with you now?

Rose Ann E. Gutierrez
Um, what’s with me now is a question as always, that I will not be answering and I don’t I don’t expect y’all to answer. But I think especially for our audience, our members are those listening is really thinking about, you know, given the current social political climate right now, specifically, as we think about anti immigrant and just the hostile climate climate for undocumented immigrants, our students is that what will it take for us to build together while dismantling our current systems? And, you know, building together is going to take a lot of work. And and I think people need to remember that this is work that those before us have done, right. It’s not going to happen overnight. So again, what will it take for us to continue to build together collectively, while dismantling our current systems?

Keith Edwards
I love that you’re reminding me one of my favorite lessons from community, researcher and builder, Peter block who said, focus less on the problems. Solutions are better, but they’re still rooted in the problems and focus on possibilities. So what are we building? What are we creating? What are we co creating? What are we doing, and I love you, you’ve all said it here. But you also make it really explicit in a lot of your work is the width and the width and for undocumented students. So co creating along the way, great. Go ahead.

Kayon A. Hall
Yeah, I think I think also what’s on my mind, I think it’s on Stephens and Rosanna is going to its, you know, darker folks who are aging out of each house. And so, we are educating folks who are undocumented without the protections of DACA. And so how will universities respond to supporting their needs? What will that what does that look like? How are we preparing them for postgraduate experiences, right. And so these are things that we have to really spend some time to think about collectively, to those points, but how can we actually support and serve the students? Right? Yeah.

Keith Edwards
Beautiful. Stephen, what are you pondering trouble? Or, yeah,

Stephen Santa-Ramirez
a lot, you know, something that a couple of things I’m, you know, having this conversation and having so many of us talk about these beautiful and brilliant folks that we get to work with all the time, I’m really thankful, right? I’m thankful that they’ve opened up their hearts and their lives and their space to us over the years, and they continue to do so. So I do want to honor that, right. Because we don’t do this work for ourselves, we do it for for them and in support of, you know, just more equitable policies and practices largely for undocumented students and immigrants and immigrants across the country. So that’s something that’s on my heart right now. It’s just how thankful I am to be in community with with these beautiful and brilliant folks who just happen to be undocumented. Something else that’s been on my heart lately, too, is how our institutions can be doing more to support these students. And, and some in law, I’m saying this because there’s I’ve been to institutions and in recent years that you know that they call themselves kind of like undock you friendly, and Sanctuary sanctuary spaces for undocumented immigrant students, yet, they have invited Border Patrol agents, to career fairs to recruit students, right. And so we can’t use these terms like we’re being adopted friendly, we’re being inclusive, and we’re going to actively work on recruiting these college students. Yet, our policies and practices aren’t matching the words right or matching what you’re saying that your support and especially if you’re calling yourself a sanctuary campus or sanctuary. So that’s something that’s been sitting with me a lot over the years, but also more recently, because we’re still in 2024. And I’m still hearing stories of this. So my challenge to folks that work in and outside of higher ed is to really critically critique what’s going on on campus, right. And are we actually talking just talking to talk or we’re Walking the talk right? And, you know, our are we, critically critiquing what we’re doing on campus within our policies and practices. And if we’re going to call ourselves sanctuary campuses, or undocumented campus or inclusive campuses for marginalized or minoritized communities that we need actual policies to defend that, right, like, for example, like policies that say, we are not going to invite Border Patrol agents on our college campus? Career Fair, non career fair, right. And you know, and some institutions have been leading to been leading the way in those regards in a lot habit, right. So for me, I’m all about action items and not about words, words mean nothing, not in my personal life, my professional life. Don’t tell me you’re sorry, unless you show me your actions, that is not going to happen again. Or that you’re sorry, it means that right. And I feel the same way about what we need to be doing at the institutional level. And yeah, so that’s something that’s been on my mind and on my heart lately. And I just urge folks to just critically critique their policies and practices and if there is none, identify some, right. And if we’re saying that we actually want to support students, because we can provide access all day long, but if our students are not feeling like they belong, not feeling like they’re a part of the community, don’t feel like they can persist toward graduation. Retention rates are low, etc, etc, etc. Then we’re not doing our job. Maybe supporting the students. Yeah.

Keith Edwards
Wonderful. Wonderful. Well, thank you all so much. This has been terrific. It’s, it’s been a beautiful conversation. So I really appreciate all of you, your scholarship, your research, your leadership in this space, and for sharing it with us today. Thank you all so much. I also want to thank our sponsors of today’s episode, Routledge, and Huron. Routledge, Taylor and Francis is the world’s leading academic publisher in education, publishing a wide range of books, journals and other resources for practitioners, faculty, administrators, and researchers may have welcomed stylus publishing to their publishing program and are thrilled to enrich their offerings in higher education, teaching, student affairs professional development, assessment and more. As a proud sponsor of Student Affairs NOW you can view their complete catalogue of education titles at routledge.com/education. And you’re on Huron is a global professional services firm that collaborates with clients to put possible into practice by creating sound strategies, optimizing operations, accelerating digital transformation, and empowering businesses and their people to own their future. By embracing diverse perspectives, encouraging new ideas and challenging the status quo here on create sustainable results for the organizations they serve. As always, a huge shout out to our producer Natalie Ambrosey who does all the work behind the scenes to make all of us look and sound good. And we love the support of these important conversations from you and those of you in our community. You can help us reach even more folks by subscribing to the podcast on YouTube, and to our weekly newsletter, where we share our new episodes every week on Wednesdays. If you’re so inclined, you can leave us a five star review. It really helps these conversations like today’s powerful conversation reach an even broader audience. And Keith Edwards thanks to our fabulous guests today to everyone who’s watching and listening. Make it a great week. Thank you all.

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