Mia Nosanow
So but the buffer zone is tried and true with so many students, it’s where you cut off work at a certain point and take a little buffer period to quiet down before you go to sleep. Because I was finding so many students are spending something really edgy in their bed, close the book and try to lay their head down and they weren’t falling asleep. Or they were just busy, busy busy till 11pm. And then all of a sudden they can’t sleep. It’s like, well, let’s talk about how to get in. It can be a 20 minute buffer zone. It doesn’t have to be too long. But it’s kind of basically quieting down. I also like to recommend that folks will write out like their to do list for the next day, if they’re struggling with busy thoughts.

Keith Edwards
Hello, and welcome to Student Affairs NOW, I’m your host Keith Edwards. Today I’m joined by me and NASA now who spent 30 years as a mental health counselor, and now has written a new book, The college students guide to mental health to help college students and their families. Mia and I were college together at Macalester College and I’m so excited for this conversation. Student Affairs NOW is the premier podcasts and online learning community for 1000s of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We release new episodes every week. On Wednesdays find details about this episode, or browser archives student affairs now.com. This episode is sponsored by Routledge Taylor and Francis view their complete catalogue of educational titles at routledge.com/education. This episode is also sponsored by Huron, a global professional services firm that collaborates with clients to put possible into practice. As I mentioned, I’m your host, Keith Edwards, my pronouns are he him his. I’m a speaker, author and coach, and I help higher ed leaders and organizations make the complex uncomplicated for leadership learning and equity. You can find out more about me at keithedwards.com. I’m recording this from my home in Minneapolis, Minnesota at the intersections of the ancestral homelands and current homelands of both the Dakota in the Ojibwe peoples. So, Mia, thank you so much for being here. And for writing this book and for sharing a little bit about it. Why don’t you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about how you came to this.

Mia Nosanow
You thank you for having me on your show today. My name is Mia Nosanow, I use she her hers pronouns. I’m a licensed psychologist at the masters level, I got my master’s degree at the University of Minnesota. And I’m came a little bit late to mental health. I had a first career in publishing in journalism and television, and realize that what was making me the happiest was when I was mentoring the interns. Um, so college age, people were always coming to me. And I’ve made a pivot to be a counselor in my 30s. And was so lucky to get the counseling job at Macalester. And I do like to mention that I thought that when I was 41, to all those out there that are maybe wondering, When are they going to get their dream job like hold on, sometimes it takes a while. And so I had the honor to work with Keith and a lot of incredible people at Mac for over 20 years and boat, found it to be a calling honestly to work with students who are in need of mental health services.

Keith Edwards
And you got to spend a lot of time at the as we were talking before, at the heart of this right. I spent a lot of time with college students at Macalester, but you were spending these 50 minute in depth sessions week to week every other week. At the heart of that. Tell us a little bit about that.

Mia Nosanow
Well, that’s what it looks like. I was always in the trenches with students. My main job was one on one counseling. So like you said, 50 minute hours, sometimes they want 60. I always felt like students were coming to me with their heart in their hand, maybe I’m the only person that’s going to listen that that they can trust to tell their truth to so very much of an honor and a privilege to be in that position. That’s what I did week after week, not in the summers, though, in the summer, so I got to do my other job in the summer, which was be a mom. So yeah, I was I was working so deeply with students, even in the groups balance sheet sharing themselves.

Keith Edwards
And you were spending most of your time in that kind of therapeutic, one on one or small group environment. I’m curious what you what insights you think you got on college students that was different than maybe mine or other administrators and a Dean of Students Office or, or an RD or career center. It’s a really different perspective on the student experience and what they’re going through and how they’re experiencing college from people who are in more of an administrative role, maybe do a little bit of counseling or a little bit of therapeutic engagement here and there. And these moments are these things, but you’re really like you said, with the heart of it and they come with their truth.

Mia Nosanow
I think one of the biggest differences from what might happen in a counseling session to what students are doing outside of counseling is that they might take their mask off and I know you have that’s part of your theory too about men that they really do take that mask off because I would have the experience of maybe running into a student just walking by on campus, and they would be kinda late. So together and like being funny, and I would just, it would hit me in my heart like, wow, they have a whole thing going on about how they’re being outside. And then in my office, they’re just going so much deeper into what is going on with them. And that kind of does dovetail into one of the reasons I wrote the book is that yes, many people were bringing in very hard stories from either family of origin or something that had happened to them, like a sexual assault or some, you know, cultural piece that’s extremely difficult. And when a lot of folks were bringing in, word became, for me themes that happened, they brought in over and over again, and that’s what was the impetus for the book is that half of what folks were bringing in, was what I would call developmentally appropriate issues. I can’t sleep great, or I’m having trouble with friends or my thoughts, my emotions are out of control in this way, but there, they wouldn’t have to be labeled mental illness, they were honestly, bringing in just a deeper level of what they were struggling with that for me was like, Yeah, guess what everyone is struggling with this. And at the same time, that’s another big theme is that students often think I’m the only one, I’m the only one that can do this. And so then I hopefully it was playing a role to say no, this is people are breathing this to my office all the time. And hopefully they believe me. Yes, that is that’s curative in itself to realize I’m not alone, but it is very hard to get there.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, yeah. And just I love this, that you would see students sharing very individual, very personalized things. And then you see the hundreds of 1000s. And you’ll notice patterns, you know, some similar things. And then it’s striking to me that you would then see them outside, walking across campus, or maybe in the dining hall. And you see this kind of performance or this masking. And now I’m imagining a lot of these students want performing, I got it together, performing, I know what I’m doing, performing. I know what path I’m on, and then going you and saying I don’t and then you saying, well, nobody does. You’re you’re you’re not the outlier, you’re the norm. Right? And if we could just get past some of that. And normalize that and share like, how Don’t you have a together? That can be really powerful. And opening some of that up? Well, tell us how the book came to be How did you know writing a book is a, particularly when you’re not doing it at an academic where you have a lot of research and you know, it’s been years kind of informing this, you had a very different experience sort of pulling from decades of experience, how did it come to be.

Mia Nosanow
And I’m just drawn to start with the academic versus how I tried to write the book, which was with no jargon, and almost no research in it, which is so opposite of what most amateur academics do, because that is 100%, based on wanting to connect with students, because in my office, I always felt, you have to use plain language and meet the student where they’re at the minute you bring in something targeting or academic, you put up a wall, I experienced that. So I was like, I do not want a book like that. I want it to just be really real, almost all, you know, as much as I can, every once in a while I have a statistic in there just to try to make a point, but very rarely. So that was that was one of them. Trying to answer question how it came about is wanting to create a resource like that, because in higher ed, a lot of the resources are more, you know, they’re based on research, because that’s what we’re learning to do as students, which is awesome. But for mental health, we want it to for actual action and mental health. We want it to be really real as much as we can. So that was one thing that was a goal for me. I did I started writing in 2007. And because I was seeing all these themes over and over, and I did not find a resource that put all the themes in one place with actionable strategies for what the theme 30 or 35 chapters what the themes are, what what are the strategies that I was doing, that we’re working with students? So that was what I started to have a vision for, and started writing. And I thought I was I always thought it was too late. Because I was there’s already a crisis. There’s already a crisis, the crisis that was happening long ago and then the election of 2016 made a huge mental health crisis. Obviously what the first crisis was really the, I think the in 2008 when In a lot of people lost financing, that created a crisis for a lot of students. The phones and social media created a crisis, the election created a crisis, shootings of young black men created a crisis across campus for a lot of people. And this is all way before we get to the pandemic, which then created such an obvious crisis, which it almost is a silver lining that it put mental health on the front burner. But this, this has been going on for a long time where students are having so much loneliness, maybe that having the skills to make friends that they used to have this covert maybe used to have, I don’t even want to put a date on when that was but the more than 20 years ago. Self Care matters, good. self talk, managing emotions, these things just haven’t. They need to be more overtly taught. And so I would, I tried to create a resource that just gave really practical skills for all these things.

Keith Edwards
Especially when you’re talking about some of these things that are such a moment, like a very particular thing, the murder of George Floyd and in Minneapolis, where, where I am, and you are near. That’s a very particular thing that affected a lot of people and other things related that are an election. She’s sort of a very particular thing. And then the things that have to happen after that. And then there’s other things that are kind of powerful impacts, but slow, like cell smartphones, right? Not everybody got one on the same day, right? That kind of spread over time. And then social media, which sort of started and then became more ubiquitous, and then the lot, lots of things happening in a pandemic, which was sort of four years ago, near almost exactly the day that we’re having this conversation. But so then that happened. And then there’s the longer term impacts. And you mentioned that I, when I’m working with a lot of campuses, the theme that I’m hearing, is that students now don’t have the capacity or the competence, they don’t have the social skills. And they don’t have the confidence. They don’t have the belief in themselves around that. And so part of that is, how do we help them gain the skills? But also how do we help them gain the confidence. And I think that’s an interesting dynamic to wrestle with both of that, that a lot of the things going on, and overwhelmed by the world and the phone and what they’re consuming, and social media, and then the realities of the world and what’s happening and what they’re seeing and how they’re not just reading about it, but seeing video of it. Whether that’s racial violence, whether that’s Ukraine, whether that’s Gaza, whether that’s the legislation being passed, there’s a whole lot coming at these students.

Mia Nosanow
I would say that absolutely. The big difference now is so much input, and so much expectation for output. Because when I when I went to college, which was I’m 64. So in the late 70s, we did not that we did not have this kind of output that we were expected and let alone the input where you’re just giving 24/7 images. And it’s, it’s not it’s just completely different now for what the human, the young human being is expected to produce or consume. It’s, it’s so extreme. I think that would be the one thing I would say. And that’s not just the fault of smartphones and all that, but it’s because the output has nothing we’re expecting them to be.

Keith Edwards
You know a little bit more about that, because I don’t I don’t think I understand that. Like I understand that they’re being they’re consuming on social media, so many things, so much more information. And also so much more visceral information. It’s one thing to read about it in a newspaper, or two years ago, it’s another one to see the video images of it and to be bombarded with that constantly. It’s a different visceral experience than an intellectual imagining, wondering. So I get the overwhelmed by all of the things that are coming at them. Tell us a little bit more about the output expectations being different.

Mia Nosanow
The output would be home, I mean, how much you’re expected to do with going to class doing your homework, being involved in things on campus, working, a lot of people are working, especially at a community college level and do doing, doing being busy all the time trying to you know, whether it’s, you know, sports, all that kind of stuff, it creates an eye Just think we have a culture of if you’re taking a break and hanging out, that is frowned upon. Just hanging out.

Keith Edwards
I’m just not committed to the cause you’re not committed to the issues, you’re not committed to what your identity group? Yeah, it’s,

Mia Nosanow
I feel that that is still real in our culture, the the generation that’s just coming to college today, who’s been through COVID, maybe, are just saying, I can’t do that. So I’m not going to do it. But I that’s not what I’m not, I’m not sure about that, if there is going to be a change because of, I can barely handle two classes, I’m going to go part time and live at home like if that if everyone’s going to opt into that. But I do think in our culture, we just really value I’m busy all the time. You definitely see it in high school when kids are just packed full. But I did not get into these

Keith Edwards
colleges so that they can be busy.

Mia Nosanow
And they’re doing stuff that they wouldn’t really choose necessarily. That’s not like, oh, this speaks to my heart. It’s more like, I know, I need to do this to check tick a box. So I think there’s a problem with, I have a whole chapter in my book on quiet time how to give yourself some downtime and rest. And it’s a there’s a huge movement in our country to do that. But it’s not Yeah, it’s not huge. There’s a burgeoning movement, which is to just Yeah, take some downtime, and just be alive and be with yourself or being with people or nature.

Keith Edwards
One of the things that I really appreciate is, you said 35 chapters sounds a little overwhelming, but they’re short, they’re really focused, they’re really sort of, here’s this thing, and, and also very tactical and helpful. So I’d love to talk with you about some of the key things from the book that you would want to share. Let’s start with the the quiet, I think so many of us yearn for quiet. We don’t feel like we can. And we don’t know how I have this experience. I’m like, I just want some quiet and just want some quiet, and then the family leaves and I get that quiet time. I’m like, I don’t even know what to do now. So you’ve got some really like concrete suggestions. And it’s not prescriptive. It’s not like, here’s what you should do. It’s, here’s, here’s seven or eight different things, what works for you. So tell us a little bit about how we can get some of that quiet, that we’re yearning for why it’s so important.

Mia Nosanow
Once again, I love that you said there’s no right answer. It’s whatever speaks to your heart about how to get quiet. But one of my favorite ones is to take a walk with no headphones. Try it. I love podcasts. I’m doing one right now. And there’s a space for trying trying on a walk just to notice the trees and what the birds might be. The birds are chirping a lot. And in St. Paul, today. That’s one kind of simple one. There’s traditional things like trying meditation or trying any kind of prayer that works for you. I’m super open to anything that works for people. As well as if they have a faith and they have specific prayers. They like doing some kind of quiet art, or thing or there’s so many ideas.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, you talked a little bit about nature too. What would you sort of not just words for nature.

Mia Nosanow
It’s funny, just kind of any, any nature, it’s good. Even if you’re in a city and you’re going with city park, and there’s huge buildings around you, if you’re in a park where there’s grass and trees, touching, touching some of the trees or something just trying to be in that or taking a walk outside. And that’s one of my you can tell that’s one of my favorites. i It’s such a simple thing. But it’s also gotten, it’s helped so many people to say, Yeah, I’m gonna plan a walk in my day in this part of my day, it gives them a real break.

Keith Edwards
It’s a real difference. I mean, I walk through my neighborhood a lot. Sometimes I’m doing executive coaching calls and focused on that. Sometimes I’m listening to podcasts or music or something like that. And then sometimes I’m not, and just paying attention, and there’s a real difference. I can do the same loop. But there’s a very different experience when I pay attention to the tops of the trees and the clouds. And there are a lot of times where I can make an hour long loop and not notice the clouds at all. Not notice the tops of the trees. But when I do I do really feel connected to nature even though I’m in a city. And just the realization that you know those trees have been there for 50 years, and the problems of my day will come and go and they’ll still be there. It just gives you perspective. In connection and a little, little timeout for me.

Mia Nosanow
Well, you mentioned looking up and I think people have studied, because to look up at the sky is not something most people would do. I think, Oh, I’m usually three, it’s an unusual thing to do. So I don’t know if I’m, I can’t remember if I mentioned in my book, but actually stopping and looking up, changes your brainwaves a bit, too. And so sitting, you can do this anywhere, because the sky is going to be above you 100% of the places you are, if you walk outside, that that will give your mind a break in a way and just to take that even, it doesn’t have to be like, oh, I need to be quiet for three hours, you can be quiet for 10 minutes or five minutes and get something out of it. The other quiet ish things that they’re not necessarily all college students can do. But I like gardening or doing some kind of thing outside with your book or playing with kids outside is still outside, you know, it’s not always quiet.

Keith Edwards
I remember when Macalester student who was very accomplished and very impressive. And I was sort of saying, you know, how’s it going and his response was, Well, you know, you can do, you can be successful academically, you can have a social life, and you can sleep but you can’t do all three. And you’ve got some really great recommendations on sleep, particularly this little, you call it a barrier space between slept. That phrase, buffer zone, yes, buffer zone, tell us about the buffer zone for sleep.

Mia Nosanow
Yeah the first section of my book has the quiet chapter in the sleep chapter, it’s on taking care of your body. And the sleep is the is the building block of mental health, like you have to have sleep. So that’s why I think that might be my longest chapter. I give so many examples, trying to get people to think of because you know, your own creativity will help you figure out what will help you. So but the buffer zone is tried and true with so many students, it’s where you cut off work at a certain point and take a little buffer period to quiet down before you go to sleep. Because I was finding so many students are spending something really edgy in their bed, close the book and try to lay their head down and they weren’t falling asleep. Or they were just busy, busy busy till 11pm. And then all of a sudden they can’t sleep. It’s like, well, let’s talk about how to get in. It can be a 20 minute buffer zone. It doesn’t have to be too long. But it’s kind of basically quieting down. I also like to recommend that folks will write out like their to do list for the next day, if they’re struggling with busy thoughts. So then it lives on the list. And you can say no, I don’t need to think about it. It’s on the list. Or Yeah, any kind of quiet behavior. But there’s a lot of right answers to this because some people, some students were like, Yeah, I watched this show. It totally calms me down. It’s media, but it still comes on down. Then I can like get ready for bed and go to sleep. I love it works for you. No, you know, it’s it’s that’s what’s the right answer.

Keith Edwards
So yeah, well, I have a 14 year old who loves Gilmore Girls and the Golden Girls for that very reason she’ll watch rewatch Golden Girls episodes, because it’s just calming and reassuring are a lot of folks who rewatch the same episodes. Because they’re familiar and it’s comforting. But I stumbled on this buffer zone when I was doing my dissertation because I was you know, dissertate eating and I would have time in the evening. And anytime I could carve out I would do it and I would work right up. And then I would go to bed and I would have dissertation about the participants about a research about my defense about all these things. I was like I can’t do this. So I realized I needed an hour between work, dissertation or other things, and bed and so I needed and sleep. Right. So Daily Show basketball, low light, I find really helps me just anything sort of dial that down and set aside from the doing have a little bit of a buffer zone. It’s really great. What are some of that we talked about the quiet and sleep? What are some of the other key things from the book that you want to make sure you mentioned in this conversation?

Mia Nosanow
When the I guess I would like to say the way each chapter is organized. It has what the what the issue is like sleep. Why it’s a challenge in that why it’s a challenge little section. Sometimes it’s it’s a couple paragraphs, maybe three but it’s so important because students don’t believe it should be a challenge they think they should already know.

Keith Edwards
And for everybody else, I’m sure what’s wrong with me.

Mia Nosanow
Exactly, So that was so important for me to put in to that in itself is like validating Yes, this is hard. It’s hard for everybody. It’s so hard. It’s in this book. And then the biggest second part is the strategies. So what to try? And in some chapters that’s essay, you know that essay questions. General General Questions or reflection questions just write a little bit about things. I have that the identities I have three identity section chapters and there are a lot of essay questions. Why am I calling them essay questions, they should be

Keith Edwards
general journal prompts.

Mia Nosanow
And then after the strategies, there’s what, how to know if this wasn’t enough. So a little bit of an assessment if something’s really wrong, and you need further help. And then the, the referral section starts with referrals on campus. So your dean of students office, your chaplains office, your counseling center, and why you would go to the counseling center for something that wasn’t going right, or whatever, I tried to refer everywhere on campus, you know what I mean? Yeah, to make it so that people have a lot of choices. And then the last section is referrals that are off campus, like bulk referrals, websites, they’re all logical to what the topic is, sometimes I have Movies app, sometimes I have apps. So that’s like, the, the way the each chapter works. And the other the six sections mirror, the, the main topics. So it’s, it’s how to take care of your body questions about your identity, how to deal with your, how to even know your, what you’re thinking how to practice that, because a lot of people, you know, our brain is like a universe in there. And how do you know, recognize, oh, I just had this thought and it was, you know, interesting, this is not a helpful lot to have, you know, students are coming in all the time, I’m an idiot, or whatever, like, let’s, let’s work on seeing, seeing that, and managing that and then figure out what you want to do with that. And I just lay that out in my chapters, and I do the same thing for emotions, recognizing emotions, naming them, what can you do to cope with them? And then the longest section is on relationships, starting with like, what are healthy friendships? What is a friendship? Just really taking it down? So for for students who are like, you know, in their late 20s, early 30s, like this, some of that stuff might not be as helpful, but for new students, it’s definitely helpful. And what are boundaries? What are what’s, what does intimacy mean, healthy sexuality. And then the last section is your time. So I have time management for mental health, coping with me the balancing priorities.

Keith Edwards
So that’s, that’s really great. I’m reminded of, you know, what I hear from folks is that they’re seeing so many college students who don’t have the skills, or the confidence, and that relationships part is really focused on that. But as you’re sharing all these other sections, they seem like maybe the roots of that, that just aren’t as seen aren’t as visible to other folks. And it’s showing up in an ability to navigate a conflict or loneliness, and needing much more support, to even engage in that conflict, or even talk about the loneliness, or even bring it up or even begin trying and some of those things.

Mia Nosanow
That’s, that’s, that’s one of the goals of the books is to get upstream of, and lay out what all the basic skills are, that everyone needs. And a lot of us have a certain age, we just had to learn them on our own. Just figured it out, like, Oh, this is, but because the world wasn’t as intense in a way as it is now. And so I think spelling it out and providing more opportunities to learn more explicitly, these skills will be helpful to hire people.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, and like we’ve talked about, it’s, it’s the six sections, 35 chapters, these very specific topics, here’s what it is, here’s the challenges and a whole bunch of offerings, I’ll call them this might help this might help. You might try this, you might try this. And then those those resources is it’s very useful. And it’s very proactive, that people can use so not, you know, address all of the challenges they’re facing. But if if a book can help eliminate two or three of the challenges, help them address them on their own and build the confidence like Oh, I did this with a little bit of help. Then it frees up maybe their their counseling session to focus on things where they need even more resources and more support and more assistance navigating through their How do you see how do you hope mean? Writing a book is a journey a lot of time and a lot of energy. And I know you were imagining how students and maybe families how do you hope individuals are Even institutions utilize a book like this.

Mia Nosanow
I do have a lot of hopes, because something that I think all of us that have worked with college students know, there’s no magic wand for having them open the book and use it, you know, that’s the one thing I can’t control. So, I would love to see the scaffolding on caffeic campus with programming around around the book, like, there’s just going to be a, I don’t know what it would look like, because every campus is really different. But like, like a book club, let’s meet and talk about this chapter, what strategies work for you, you know, so that, to have it, a place for it to be used and an excuse to open it and see that, but that it’s valued. Because I still think, you know, we think the stigma is lessened, and it has, but it has not lessened enough where it’s, yeah, I’m working on my mental health, it’s still a really hard thing to do and talk about, I would love to see peer to peer, you know, peers using like the RAs having their programming and say, we’re gonna talk about, you know, chapter eight today, and like, big piece of paper, and we’ll, you know, it’s all all there. I heard so much that parents are really interested in the book and campuses that can help the parents get a copy in some way so that the parents can can see, oh, I didn’t realize my kid would be working on this, that this is normal, and then all of a sudden, it creates a bridge to their can like, yeah, it is hard to know what you’re thinking or what you want to do. And it takes a lot of intention. And so that it just it can create those kinds of bridges between people and more, more discussion and having it be more front front burner that will help health skills. I’m just gonna happen on their own, and we want to prioritize them. And, yeah,

Keith Edwards
yeah, I think one of the things that has always been on my mind is how much time campuses spend being reactive to student issues, whether it’s a mental health crisis, whether it’s sexual violence, whether it’s not doing well academically, once a student is really struggling, or in maybe in crisis, we spend a lot of time and people and resources to help that student recover, hopefully. And what if we spent more time teaching them how to be successful on the front end, to be proactive, this you know, things like sleep, things like study habits, things like healthy relationships to to be equip them to do this? Well, give them skills, give them competence and confidence. Back that’s, we’d rather do that, right. When I think about my kid going off to college, I’d rather than learn how to be successful than wait for them to really be in trouble. And then try and help them. It also seems really helpful for a lot of parents to see. Struggle is a part of the college experience. It’s not a sign of failure, or they’re doing it wrong, but struggle with friendships is a part of the deal. That struggle with managing your time is a part of the learning experience. Trying to find how to sleep is a part of, you know, the growing up and some of the challenges there. So normalizing and then parents being able to not just say, Oh, no, how do I fix it? But say, oh, okay, here’s some things. Have you tried this? Have you tried that? And these things work for you? Because some of us know better, and we don’t do better? You ever notice that? Yeah. Yeah.

Mia Nosanow
But does that do as I say that as I do?

Keith Edwards
Yeah. I know, good sleep habits. I don’t always do them. Yeah. So there’s a there’s a bridge between what we know and what we practice.

Mia Nosanow
So true, I always when people would ask me, What can I do to help my kid I was like, take care of yourself. And model. You. They’re watching you like a hawk. Whether they seem like they are not. They’re gonna do it. You know, they’re gonna watch what you’re doing.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, modeling it so powerful. Yeah. I had a coach say to me, I was struggling with an issue. And the coach was saying, uh huh, uh huh. How you say, get into this? What would you want your kids to learn about this thing? And I was like, Oh, this, this and this. Well, how are you teaching them that by how you’re doing it? And that just took my commitment to it to a whole different level. And remembering hearing the author of Brain Rules, who will I forget his name will link it in the notes. But he said the number one question he gets is how do I get my kid into Harvard? And he would say, well, that’s a terrible goal and for all these reasons, but if you want your kid to be successful, his number one tip was have a good relationship with your partner. And I just thought that was such a great thing that we get so focused then make him do this and have chores and give him allowance or don’t give them allowance, right. But his number one thing you could do is, is model a good relationship have a positive relationship have a healthy relationship

Mia Nosanow
reminds me of, I love to bring up the study. And like you, I’m gonna forget the name. But it comes out of St. Paul campus, the family social science, where they studied the family dinner. And people that have family dinner, where they sit down and talk to each other to eat together, have all these positive mental health and health and social outcomes. It’s phenomenal. And so that was feeling kind of linked to me, you know that to have dinner where everyone sits down as a healthy adult relationship.

Keith Edwards
And I know, I was just thinking about this yesterday about how I know that to be true. And as we’re navigating soccer and track, these things are really, really hard to do. Well, before we move to our last question, anything else you want to be sure to mention, or share here that you would think particularly our Student Affairs audience, like you said, you have this behind the scenes footage, you really have the real deal, but you would think would be really helpful for them to know.

Mia Nosanow
One thing that’s come up a lot that I think is helpful for student affairs folks to know is that they can talk to students who seem in distress, because much of the time they’re going to be in distress about something that the the staff member has worked through on their own to like, the topics in my book, all adult humans have dealt with these things. And so you have your own story embedded and all this stuff. So you can also say, Yeah, of course, sleep is really hard to figure out when you’re in school, because you want to do it all. I worked on that too. And here’s there’s some strategies in the book if they’re gonna use the book, but so that to give non counseling staff more confidence to meet students where they’re at, because I think a lot of the time students are bringing in these developmental struggles, that it kind of feels easier to walk them over the conflict center, but they can be, they can be tucked through a lot. Not every time. I know that I know, there’s a lot of extreme views. But like, a lot of these things are about normal learning. And it’s gotten more intense. And so we all need to attend to that.

Keith Edwards
I think that’s really helpful to hear from someone with your experience, because I think so many of us here are a student who’s in crisis. And we just say, Well, I’m not a mental health professional. So let’s schedule you a counseling center. And I think there’s some space between that where we can say, well, what is that? Because I think so many college students now are familiar and maybe a little bit more comfortable with Lang language of mental health, mental health, taking care of my mental health, even things like anxiety. And sometimes they’re talking about a diagnosable thing where they need a lot more support from a mental health professional, for sure. And sometimes they’re saying, I’m struggling, I’m stressed, I’m worried. I’m not doing well, I’m having a really bad day. And rather than say that it can be easier, or they’re familiar with other people saying, Oh, I’m having a mental health issue. Right. And so what does that mean and unpacking because I think some of that language and really good ways has been been de-stigmatized, and normalized. But then sometimes it also what comes with that is maybe a little overuse or a little not overuse, but broadly used some of that language and giving permission for student affairs folks to not just refer to the counseling center every time there’s a student struggling, but to really engage and do that, because I don’t know any college campus who has more than enough mental health counselors are more than enough appointment times. Right. Everybody’s got a waitlist. Yeah.

Mia Nosanow
So that’s, I mean, I think that’s how it’s going to have to go on our campuses is that we all embrace this. And I hope we do because it’ll make it’ll our kids or our students are hurting. And if everyone can be that kind of listening ear, just to Hey, what’s going on there? I can handle this one too. Yes. They also went through, struggled with this, here’s some strategies that you can try.

Keith Edwards
But you’re also modeling not being a No at all, but being relatable. Oh, I know how hard that is. Yeah, I struggle with this or I still struggle with that. Right and connecting rather than Well, what you should do is, right.

Mia Nosanow
I think that I really, really tried hard not to do that in my book, like, Yes, we all need sleep, but also yes, there is a million right answers to how you do it so that you get what you need. So I tried to walk around that needle. Yeah.

Keith Edwards
Well, let’s just point out that if more folks can sort of help the students who are having what you’re calling these sort of normally developmental challenges and struggles, it frees up time for the students who really do need a mental health professional and can be there and can maybe not have to wait three weeks for that appointment. But maybe wait a week for that. And so, really making helping make sure the resources get to those who most needed, and that really varies individually. Well, we’re running a bit out of time. And we always like to end with what are you thinking, pondering troubling, noodling now, and the book is out, and it’s available. But you wrote it a while ago. So I’d love to hear having written a book and published it and signed off on it and edited the proof copies. And now you’re having conversations like this, and Good Morning, America, which will link to in the show notes and other places, I’d love to hear what you’re thinking now about some of these things, maybe something that you would add, or maybe something that’s already is in the book that you think is just more important than ever, now that I’m talking about it with others?

Mia Nosanow
That’s a that’s a big broad question. I, I mean, it took me it did take me 15 years to write the book, because I needed all the examples of my

Keith Edwards
15 years not writing a book, so good for you.

Mia Nosanow
So I felt like, oh, it took that amount of time to get what I needed in there. And yet, it I’m, I’m surprised still at how many young people are hurting and need more, so that that weighs on me. And I just, you know, I’m glad that my after so long did come out come out. I guess that what keeps popping into my head is the loneliness epidemic, which most people in higher ed should be aware of. It’s huge news, and the Surgeon General’s written about it and how our students are and really our whole society is lonely. So how can we help help them connect? I mean, I give a lot of strategies in my book for relationships, you know, and communication and all that stuff. Like, that’s good. That’s in the book. But it’s, it’s certainly has to be done in real time with people becoming face to face so that that worries me that people are further apart. And obviously that’s mirrored in our society where things are so

Keith Edwards
not just college students. No, no, yep. That’s a big one. Well, where will we’ve got a lot of things we’ll put in the in the show notes from where to buy the book, and Good Morning America and some other things. If folks want to connect with you, where can they do that?

Mia Nosanow
I have a website. That’s my name. And I have a, I do have an Instagram, that I started just a little while ago, I’m trying to put helpful things on there. And that’s at college Mental Health Guide. And if they want to, if someone wants to write me an email, and totally open to that it’s my name me and author, all one word at Gmail. So all those that’s my places.

Keith Edwards
That’s great. Well, like I said, we’re gonna get lots of links and things in the show notes. And you’re working with some campuses to sort of to get discounts or provide books for for incoming students and things like that. Do you want to add any more about that possibility?

Mia Nosanow
Yes, campuses are, quite a few campuses have bought copies for their, for their Student Life staff to get to know and see how they might want to use it with students or what kind of programming they might want to do. And there’s a great discount on on the book, there’s a 50% discount. So and with free shipping to people that buy more than 25 copies at once to give out to their staff. So you can contact me at that me and last Annelle author at Gmail account, and you hooked up with that.

Keith Edwards
Right, so we’re student lifestyle with incoming students with parents of families, lots of great opportunities. Well, thank you, Mia. It’s great to see you again. And thank you for being here and connecting and sharing. All these years of experience. I feel like we kind of got the 20 plus years of counseling sort of download here super quickly. So thanks for the book. Thanks for your work. And thank you for your for caring for college students.

Mia Nosanow
Thanks for having me.

Keith Edwards
And thanks to our sponsors of today’s episode, Routledge and Huron. Routledge. Taylor Francis is the world’s leading academic publisher in education, publishing a wide range of books, journals and other resources for practitioners, faculty, administrators and researchers. They welcome stylus publishing to their publishing program and are thrilled to enrich their offerings in higher education, teaching student affairs professional development, assessment and more. They’re a proud sponsor of Student Affairs NOW view their complete catalogue of education titles at routledge.com/education. And Huron is a global professional services firm that collaborates with clients to put possible into practice by creating sound strategies, optimizing operations, accelerating digital transformation, and empowering businesses and their people to own their future by embracing diverse perspectives, encouraging new ideas and challenging the status quo to create sustainable results for the organizations they serve. As always, a huge shout out to our producer Natalie Ambrosey who does all the behind the scenes work to make us look and sound good. We love the support of these important conversations from our community. Thanks to all of you and we invite you to subscribe to the podcast subscribe on YouTube and subscribe to our weekly newsletter, where you get a free announcement each Wednesday morning of our newest episode. If you’re so inclined, you can leave us a five star review. It helps these conversations reach a larger audience. And Keith Edwards, thanks to our thanks to our fabulous guests today. And everyone who’s watching and listening. Make it a great week.

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