Oiyan Poon
Oh, that I love this question. Because I’ve been thinking a lot about writing. I, I’ve had a tumultuous relationship with writing throughout my life. You know, in elementary school, I was told by teachers, so you’re a good writer. And then by middle school, high school, my teachers were like, You’re a terrible writer. And then it was like, I entered a profession that requires writing, eventually, but it’s it. I think it goes back to becoming a mom that identity. This, I want to say traumatizing shift in some way. Yeah. It was. It just made me return to myself. Right. I became a mom, also, about two years after my own mother had passed. And so it was all of these things, these layers that were just emotionally tumultuous for me and roiling it. And so part of it was just a lot of reflection about what does it mean to be who I am today?

Mamta Accapadi
Welcome to Student Affairs NOW the online learning community for Student Affairs educators. I’m your host Mamta Accapadi. Student Affairs NOW is a premier podcast and learning community for 1000s of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We release new episodes every week. On Wednesdays, find us at Student Affairs now.com on YouTube or anywhere you listen to podcasts. This episode is sponsored by Huron a global professional services firm that collaborates with clients to put possible into practice. Today’s episode is also sponsored by Routledge, Taylor and Francis view their complete catalogue of authoritative education titles@routledge.com/education stay tuned to the end of the podcast for more episode about each of our sponsors. As I shared earlier, my name is Mamta Accapadi. My pronouns are she her hers and I am broadcasting to you today from Austin, Texas. Austin, Texas is situated on the unseeded ancestral homelands of the hermanos gua will take on Comanche Apache people’s. My friends, you’re in for a true treat today. I butterflies I’m super excited about this conversation. I am I’m so excited to welcome not only a thoughtful and brilliant scholar and educator but someone who I have considered a long time as a mentor. Dr. Oiyan Poon is a co director of the college admissions futures collaborative, and a senior research fellow focusing on education equity at the NAACP LDF Thurgood Marshall Institute. Her research agenda brings together organizational theories, and race and ethnic studies to study rejected admission and selection processes, the racial politics of Asian Americans and education and affirmative action policies. Her work has appeared widely in the national media outlets, including the New York Times The Washington Post, The Atlantic, the Chronicle of Higher Education, and the New Yorker. So friends, please welcome my dear friend and mentor, Dr. Oiyan Poon. Thank you so much. It’s so it just such a I mean, I feel like this is a reunion. It’s kind of a fan club moment here for me. So these are up together. Again, together. Yes, I definitely. As a kindred spirit. And beyond that, I mean, you’re always somebody that I’ve tried to aspire to live and lead, like and so to be in this space with you just feels so restorative for me, and I love that I can share that in a public forum like this. And I’m so great. So it’s Thank you. And it’s, yeah, it is this, y’all. This is gonna be a love fest, for sure. So welcome. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you. So, you know, I, you and I could probably talk for hours on a lot of things. And let’s be candid, we’re here to talk. Very specifically, we’re gonna have to contain our energy and time. But I’m super excited. I mean, to hear about your book, I just want to celebrate your book. Oh, yay. Okay. Yes. Okay, folks can see it. Okay, that’s good.

Mamta Accapadi
So I’m so excited to hear about your book, thank you for the opportunity to, to read it. I really enjoyed it. And we’ll talk more about it. But your book, Asian American is not a color conversations of race, affirmative action, and family. And I’m excited to get into the book. And you know, you do such a great job. There’s so much. It’s not just knowledge, there’s ancestral wisdom woven throughout your book. And so before we kind of go into that I would love for our listeners to hear more of your wisdom through just I mean, we’d love to hear pieces of your journey, like what was your journey been like in higher education so far? Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Oiyan Poon
Well, you know, Mamta you and I go way back I started my career in higher education was probably around the same time as your star as well. So we we grew up together in the profession, and I don’t take that lightly. I value and treasure that we have journey alongside each other. And I’ve learned so much from you throughout the years, I can remember and pinpoint moments where I was just like, I really want to talk to mom about this. From across the country, right, because we’ve never really we’ve never actually lived. No, we’re together. are directly. But yeah, my journey is probably probably rather typical of student affairs professionals. I had a bumpy but rewarding college experience. I was an RA, of course. Then I have the hall director experience in the mix, I did the Student Affairs master’s program since and really pursued Multicultural Affairs. And at a time, this is like the late 90s, early 2000s. Right around the time when I think Asian American Student Services and student experiences were coming more into the conversation either through students pushing those issues very actively and, you know, pushing for institutional accountability, or, or otherwise, right. And so I, as a Master’s student, at the University of Georgia was very much part of that kind of activist tradition, and was always like, Why aren’t Asian Americans more in the mix when it comes to? At that time Multicultural Affairs? Yeah. And so how many?

Mamta Accapadi
You’re right, we did grew up in the profession. So as you’re telling story, which is what folks have a contract. So how many other Asian Americans were alongside you in? As you were doing this work at that time?

Oiyan Poon
I’m not many because I was the first first Asian American Student Affairs person at two different major universities. Right? Yes. So my first job was in a multicultural affairs office, as it was called, that’s 20 ish, plus years ago. And I was the very first one assigned, you know, the task of addressing Asian American and Pacific Islander student needs and issues and interests. I was recruited to University of California Davis, where I was the first student affairs officer in Asian American studies. So right, um, yeah, so literally, my, my student affairs profession started in that time of like these positions popping up. I think there was someone at UVA. Yeah. And that person was the first someone at Dartmouth that person was the birth. Yes, there was a Oh, UConn. Angela. Right. And Angela was like a pioneer. And, but there was just any we knew at Yeah, we pretty well, back in the day of email listservs. Yep. And, and email chain. So that’s how I got my start in the profession. And it was during my time at UC Davis. And that Job was really interesting, because it’s California. I’m an East Coast girl. Right? And all of us east of California. We’re like, oh, man, California’s got it so good. Right. But there was a string of attacks at UC Davis, violent incidents, targeting Asian American students at UC Davis, which was at the time 35% Asian American students. Wow. Right. And so that critical mass was there. Sure. Yeah. But that does it, you know, diminish the reality of anti Asian racism. So we’re violence. Right? And so this is in the late 90s, I think. Yep. And the students got together, but what was important was they got together in a cross racial coalition. Yep. And they said, you know, why? Yes, we need to fix the campus climate and they did it. intergenerationally. So they worked at pre social media. Pre-texting, right? Yes, conference call lines and

Mamta Accapadi
boundaries, boundaries, boundaries, all of

Oiyan Poon
that, that kind of organizing. And they won a whole lot of games at UC Davis. Both proposition 209 line view, right. Sure. It was like decades of movement, but the wins they got a student affairs officer and Asian American studies that became I was the first one in that job. A Native American Studies Student Affairs Officer, right. The expansion of a permanent Cross Cultural Center at that building exists now. Yeah, these are all games that finally got one after the quote unquote, ended affirmative action California. Just taking a moment to think about that because we’re in a particular moment, right. Post Supreme Court. Yes, ruling right. And so it was in that job that was won by community activism, and campaign, where I started thinking a lot about systemic problems. I was academic advising, I was doing admissions reading, I was working with students on retention issues and realizing, wow, there’s their systems at play. And I really want to be part of fixing those systems, because it’s not just how do I help this one student and that one student? How do I fix this larger system?

Mamta Accapadi
Yeah, and so, so from there, you know, you shifted to what you’re, you’ve always been a scholar and shifted kind of, to an academic journey to be able to kind of contribute to shifting systems. Anything, any reflections? Yeah.

Oiyan Poon
Yeah, I mean, the thing is, I would see on the I was one of those on the ground, people meeting students on a day in and day out, students were being pushed out, dealing with all these kind of situations that could be systemically solved. And I would go to my leadership in the division. And I’d be like, hey, vice chancellors, here’s what I think needs to happen. And repeatedly, I would get the retort, where’s the data? What’s the evidence? How do you know that there’s not just the handful of students? And I’m my handful, my but it’s like, yeah, it feels like every day. Right? And so you can call it anecdotal? Yeah. Right. But, and, but it’s still evidence. And, you know, the leadership would say, like, that’s great. I’m still making big budget decisions, I’m gonna need stronger data. And I was like, how am I? Where am I supposed to get data, I’m not the IR office. And I tried to work with the IRS office, and there was a little more data there. But it was like, something’s not connecting. And so then, because I was in an academic department in Asian American studies, I was reporting to them and the Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs, I would tell these faculty, Hi, I’m supposed to go find data when Mr. Hammonds was. Finally one of the professors was like, why don’t you go get the data? Get the data? And I’m like, What do you mean, learn to get the data and you’re like, go get a PhD. And I was like, I wasn’t talking about getting a PhD. And they’re like, that’s what a PhD is for, you get a PhD. So you learn how to get evidence and work evidence and do analysis and analysis that can then inform changes and you know, motivate, change. And I was like, oh, you know, this is a first generation student. Oh, there’s that one a PhD. Thanks for telling me. So that was the pivot. Right. I was like, I guess I’ll go, I guess I’ll go learn how to do data.

Mamta Accapadi
That’s amazing. Again, I’m sure we could have an entire topic just on that very conversation and even you know, navigating those journeys of first gen kids for sure. You know, I and you know, you and I had a chance to kind of process before we started recording I just there, your, your book is so powerful for many reasons, as we kind of engaged in our conversation. And I just, you know, it’s clear that there is so much of your humanity woven through. So in addition to the data, in addition to your intellect is your humanity and your ancestral wisdom, I always like to reference that phrase, in this book, and so it’s so it just, it’s, it’s so inspiring for me to read, there’s a, you know, a question that you asked in the beginning of your book, something that I think you’re grappling with, you know, how do you teach a kindergartener about the histories and contemporary legacies of race and racism in a way that affirms her humanity and agency and her referencing your daughter? I just, you know, I love that of the identities that you bring, I mean, your motherhood is so salient in in this book, but truly, like, how did your identities and experiences inform and inspire the book and your writing process?

Oiyan Poon
Yeah, this is a this book has been a labor of love in a way that has I’ve never written anything like this before. I went, did a PhD, right. I learned how to do research and research writing, academic writing, I got very good at that. It’s very formulaic to or not journal article, have a very particular, here are the five or six sections that you’re supposed to write and it was just, you know, you learn how to do that. And, like, I joke like, oh, and then 10 People read that article that you worked on for two years. So I do Yeah, you know, first and foremost, I think my experiences and my identity as a mom, is what’s really driving at the heart of this book project. Because right around the time when my daughter was starting to become verbal, she was about three years old. And she started asking me all these questions about the world and about race. And, you know, and I know she’s not unique in asking those questions, because this is just human development, right? We know, also from research that babies and toddlers start recognizing differences in the world, and they start having questions and so boggles my mind. To see these quote unquote, parents, right? Young canes, his book banning campaigns. I’m so confused. I’m just so confused. I mean, we’re here in Texas right now. Right? Like, like one of the places where these, these know, teachers should not be teaching about, you know, any kind of diverse identities, right? And history, and I’m just so confused by that, because I am a whole race scholar. I study raising education all day long. And then when my daughter started asking questions about race and racism, at three years old, I didn’t know how to answer her. Right. She asked me like, are we black or white? I was like, no worries in American and she was like, yeah, that’s not a color. That’s where the title of the poem from? Yeah. Yeah, mom, Asian Americans, not a color. And I’m like, you are correct. And I need to tell you so much more. And. And of course, she was three. So I think like, well, Oh, me and whatnot, would say you’re not wrong to your child. However, political objects that make meaning, you know, who’s, you know, type and their political realities and power at play? That doesn’t work for a three year old, apparently. Or probably most people generally. Right. And so I think that question was like, Oh, my God, I have a whole degree, degrees, and publications, on, you know, analyzing race and racism in education. I don’t even know how to talk to my daughter about these things. So then, if I can’t talk to my daughter, then how do I talk to regular people in my community? Yeah. Right. Who could maybe benefit from understanding race and racism at a deeper level? And maybe then we wouldn’t be where we’re at where people are feeling all kinds of fragility. Yeah. And feelings of insecurity when their kid ask these questions, right. One of the questions in the book I opened one of the chapters with, you may remember is when my daughter came home last year and asked, Are we colonizers? Right, and I joke sometimes and like, and then I was like, where’s my local mom’s for Liberty chapter? I didn’t do it. But it did make me think about okay, that question did make me uncomfortable. Yeah. Right. And but let me contend with my discomfort, and I have the language, I have the training to work through that and talk with her about it. But is that why some of these other mostly white parents are freaking out? Or their kids coming home with these kinds of questions? And are they reacting in ways that are dangerous and terrible? Yeah, yeah. But how do we disrupt that? How do we say like, Yeah, I hear you, you feel uncomfortable? It’s just lean into that discomfort.

Mamta Accapadi
You know, again, I shared this with you before, and kind of as we kind of move in to, to the next reflection question I have for you. There’s a parallel question. My daughter and I’ve been talking a lot about privilege. And so the uncomfortable right, particularly for her as an I certainly had privileged when I was younger, too, in ways that I may not have realized, but she very clearly has very different dimensions of privilege. And so her grappling with okay, I do I have privilege. I know I have privilege. And for it to be okay to be in the discomfort around those privileged identities and then how you show up in those ways as opposed to like, really, I feel like there’s an opportunity to disrupt the entry of guilt and shame at an early point. Wait to say, how do we pay attention? Acknowledge? And what do subtle disruptions look like? Because with subtle disruptions, you pave the way for bigger conversations and more meaningful jumps. And so I just feel, again, your book just is that invitation to be able to with appropriate and information. So the final day there, right? It’s interconnected, right, meaningful and powerful, powerful waves.

Oiyan Poon
I mean, this book was really my challenge to myself to be like, okay, maybe I don’t know, I don’t need to try to explain this to a three year old or five year old or nine year old, which is turning nine next month. But what I need to do is challenge myself to write and offer the stories from my research in a way that is accessible to intelligent educated people who may not be immersed, right? In race theory. Yeah, absolutely. You don’t have to be right. Exactly.

Mamta Accapadi
I still, I would still like to reflect a little bit more about your writing journey. If you know in as much as you’re willing to share. I just I personally felt so validated as a human being as I was reading as a person with all of my own identities. As I was reading this book, I you know, it was part history lesson, part love letter, part memoir, and so much more, I feel like those separate pieces don’t even capture kind of the, the interplay of those, those different observations. And then a piece of me felt like I don’t need to co OPT, I felt like I was reading a version of my own story and race, consciousness and motherhood. And so the way that you created opportunities for a reader to relate in and claim their stories by by you claiming your own voice was just really powerful. And I wonder, what does that writing? Like? What did that writing process feel? Like? What was your experience in the actual writing journey?

Oiyan Poon
Oh, that I love this question. Because I’ve been thinking a lot about writing. I, I’ve had a tumultuous relationship with writing throughout my life. You know, in elementary school, I was told by teachers, so you’re a good writer. And then by middle school, high school, my teachers were like, You’re a terrible writer. And then it was like, I entered a profession that requires writing, eventually, but it’s it. I think it goes back to becoming a mom that identity. This, I want to say traumatizing shift in some way. Yeah. It was. It just made me return to myself. Right. I became a mom, also, about two years after my own mother had passed. And so it was all of these things, these layers that were just emotionally tumultuous for me and roiling it. And so part of it was just a lot of reflection about what does it mean to be who I am today? And I think I shared with you earlier, before we started recording, I was like, I it made me realize I’m like, Oh, I’m an Asian mom. Yeah. I’m an Asian mom, right. And there’s all these like jokes and stereotypes of Asian moms bar and what we’re, you know, demanding, right, all this, all this puppy stereotypes and jokes that are out there about Asian mom. And I was like, oh, shoot, I am now an Asian mom. And I’m not. And it made me think of, and I was thinking a lot about my own mother. Right. And it wasn’t able to ask her thing. While she was alive as a mom to a mom. Yes. But I started being and thinking about my own mother in a different way. Which then made me think about Asian moms. In a new way. Yeah.

Mamta Accapadi
Well, there’s really powerful. I say, there’s a really well as you bring that up, a moment where you talk about your daughter where you wake up, and she says something like, I was talking to your mom.

Oiyan Poon
Yeah, she was to me, freaked me out. It was I see. I see ghosts chapters. Uh huh. And about the historical legacies of our ancestors. Yeah. And so it was like all of these things. And around the time, I had my daughter, I had just finished up these interviews. I was finishing up these interviews across the country with Asian Americans, who were activists in the affirmative action debate either for or against. And I really the stories that these people shared with me, I really wanted to share in a book and I kept trying to write in an academic way, and it just wasn’t coming out. It wasn’t until my daughter was three and asked me, Are we black or white like that? I was like, I can’t answer it succinctly. But let me write this book for you and draw from these other stories. And that’s when things started just really blowing. Yeah, right, where I was like, Okay, I need to explain to you a little bit about our history. You know, I want you to learn about history of who we’ve been and the choices that we’ve made. Right. So I think also, the book was really inspired by Grace Lee Boggs. Well, where she says, You don’t choose the times you live in, but you choose how you act and how you think. And I think that’s what my daughter was asking me when she was asking, What are the things that essentially what does it mean to be Asian American, right? And I’m trying to tell her in this book, that she has choices, but you need to learn from our histories and contemplate the various possibilities that have already been set out before us. Yeah, but you can also carve out a completely new path. But you have to do that in relationship in solidarity with other people as well. So thought, and so so this is where I was like, once I tapped into my heart space, it was like, Oh, now this thing is coming through now. And I couldn’t write it until I literally wrote down dear Taytay. That’s when I was like, Okay, I’m, I’m writing to my daughter. And I would love it if other people would join in and read along. And be a voyeur if you like. But I have one audience in mind. Yes, my daughter. Wow.

Mamta Accapadi
That’s, that’s beautiful. Thank you. Thank you. I mean, again, just and you could feel the intimacy in the book, right. So there’s, there’s an invitation and there’s an intimacy. I actually don’t feel an avoider. I mean, I feel like there’s an invitation where you give us permission to be part of your story. And I really, thank you for letting us in that sacred space, that just means so much. In our conversation, you mentioned your research. And so throughout your research process, as you did kind of listen to the stories of the 36 Asian American activists, you referenced, half being supporters of race, conscious admissions and the other half opponents, that kind of, of course, intertwined within intertwined with your own personal narrative. There’s a space in your book where you say, you’re kind of really trying to seek the answer to the question, what does it mean to be Asian American? What surprised you the most about that research journey alongside your research participants?

Oiyan Poon
Um, so first, I have to give credit where credit is due to Professor Peter Qiang at UMass Boston, because I never had the idea to invite anti affirmative action folk, well to be in conversation I never thought about that I had always. And I think if you look at the research literature on Asian Americans who are opposed or like the different perspectives on the issue, among Asian Americans, there’s very few works where people have actually talked to people. Yeah, right. It’s all theoretical. And I’ve done that, right. I theorized while I’m seeing these news articles about these people, I’m seeing these social media postings by these people. And then I think it was at a conference where Professor Peter King and I were in a group of other I think it might have been Ara. So it was an ED Research Conference. And people were at a cafe and I was really upset about I think it was 2013 or 14, when there was this anti affirmative action campaign in California. Because there was efforts to reinstate affirmative action. And I was just, you know, just venting about what are these people thinking? You’re Asian American, and there’s anti Asian discrimination and you want to, you know, you want to stop these laws that are meant to help you? Yeah, what is wrong with you? Right, and Peter, just very quietly, and if you’ve ever met Peter, he’s just very like, low key chill. He goes, Have you ever talked to these people? Yeah. That’s like, why would I ever do that? Yeah. And he was like, I don’t know, maybe you’ll learn something. I was I just wanted to purpose, you know, engaging with your question by my talking about that, because I think your question being alongside the research participants is so important because I actually really enjoyed my time for the most part, and, and listening, just listening and inviting folks into community, because these are people who are in my Community, right who share an identity with me? Better or worse, right? And we have ideological differences. But what I learned was even the folks I shared ideologies with, they didn’t understand what it is. Right? That really got under me, right? I was just like, oh my gosh, how is it that you’re the advocates? And you’re spreading misinformation? Oh, my gosh, you’re my people. You’re we are political kin. Right? And you’re getting it wrong. How is this possible. And then what really, kind of, across the board, everyone I talked to, at the end of the day was about love. Like we still share a love for, you know, our communities, our families, and we all had our struggles, like different struggles, in the face of anti Asian racism and discrimination and violence. It’s like we all had those shared experiences, it was just that we had different strategies for dealing with these problems. And I have deep disagreements, we have deep disagreements with each other. But it just reminded me like one of the most adamant anti affirmative action people I interviewed, there was this one point in the interview where he was on Zoom. And his daughter, who was about eight or nine, at the time, ran into the room, and you he just had this very sweet moment with his daughter, and he put it on mute, I was just like, this is a dad. You know, he and I disagreed deeply with each other. And, and there are things that are coming out of the mouth that I find deeply offensive. And at the same time, there’s still this basic humanity, that he loves his daughter. He loves his daughter, I love my daughter. How do we get across this divide? Where at the end of the day, though, things that are going to come out of his mouth publicly are going to also reflect on me. And vice versa? Do we have to find do we have to share? political ideology? Yeah, I don’t know if this is my struggle, right. Like, we don’t I don’t think we need to.

Mamta Accapadi
Yeah, well, you know, you talk about, you know, again, the parenthood reflections are real. Throughout the book, and this example, we’re reflects that. And ancestry, you know, certainly links as parents, but it’s beyond that. Right. It’s beyond that. generationally speaking. And so, you know, one point in your book, you asked the question, how do we become good ancestors? And I would, I would love to know what that means to you.

Oiyan Poon
Yeah, and I and I have to give credit to native and indigenous scholars and mentors of mine, who you know, and writers and leaders who have talked, talk a lot about, you know, how do you create a present now a contemporary reality right now, have you act in this moment, so that you open up possibilities in the future, that aren’t possible right now. And for me, is about doing things that I feel like will affirm, you know, be affirming of humanity, right, of human experiences and being open to it and lifting up people. And it’s a choice of solidarity. Right. And so I think that’s what it means for me is that I’m not I’m not staying neutral in the book, right? You know, I do I do say I do say to a tee right, that like, you have choices, and there’s right now there’s these people who are all identify as a Asian American just like you and I do. And they’re making different political investments for a future. And so for me to be a good ancestor, what is my vision, it is a multiracial shared immunities society. We work together and we figure out problems together to fix them. Right. So that you don’t I was just talking to someone about we don’t have the machines taking over. Yeah. But you know, yeah, it’s how do we affirm and support and lift up people in their experiences in their wholeness because I think in a lot of women are willing going in the opposite direction. Yeah. And that was set up already, right, like somewhat people created what we have today all these machines and yeah, the things in the world, right. So how do we make it so that, that there always says like, can we just end worst, like, stupid? And then because clearly you adults have really messed up the Earth? Do we stop this climate change thing? I would like to be able to live to an old age and breathe clean air and drink clean water? Just so many things, right? If we know, I mean, climate change is a perfect example. Well, you know, we’re on this pathway here, why are we not?

Mamta Accapadi
Yeah, making different choices, making different choices?

Oiyan Poon
And that applies to higher ed too, right? Internally, it’s not just this, like, throw your hands up. And like, we can’t do anything about our worlds, but as hired professionals and leaders, we have you know, we have our own little corners and our spheres of influence. Right. And that can add up. Yeah, I can build movements, right.

Mamta Accapadi
Yeah, I just, you know, the, the invitation for an interconnectedness, right, interconnectedness is hard. And it’s part of our shared work. And so I think that, that that hope came across very strongly, and I know that I was grateful to receive it, for sure, among many things, and you’ve already kind of began, you know, begun talking about some of these complexities, but one of the things I really appreciated about your book, is that you managed to convey such complex, you know, complex and nuanced issues, in a really accessible and grounded way, I have a lot of, I still have it, you know, you and I talked about this whole time, I still have a lot of like, I don’t feel like I fit in, in academic spaces, I don’t, you know, use the big words, I don’t feel smart enough. And I just loved how accessible your book was. And it clearly rigorous, you know, rigorous and in research, and accessible for a common reader. And, and it just, you know, that so I just want to offer gratitude, that means a lot to me. And there, there are some, you know, like, I have, like my favorite kind of quotes that I’ve kind of picked out and you know, this, this idea of, you share a realization, and I just put it out, I’ll read the quote, I realized that Asian American Asian Americans are engaged in heated identity wrestling matches, we wrestle to make our identities and perspectives exist in this world and be recognized. And I think this was in, you know, the section of chapter where we’re talking about, you know, various, litigious Asian Americans that, you know, in that particular section, but this idea of acknowledging our existence, and kind of the the ways in which we grapple in order to claim that was just really, really powerful. And then kind of parlaying that to another quote, the, you know, you talk about this idea of you have this there, the two, the two fallacies that that you bring up, right, and so I’ll get a quote just to give accuracy to, to the reflection, but the claims that race conscious admissions policies are anti Asian rely on racially biased logics, racial anxieties and two fallacies. So kind of with that wrestling that you talked about before you bring up these two fallacies, the first being that all of it all Asian Americans pursuing college degrees are extraordinary talented, above and beyond and above and beyond other Americans. And then the second that all Asian Americans wish to attend highly selective colleges and universities. So both of those things, because of the interplay of wrestling with this idea of of where we exist in how to be visible. And these two fallacies, like the interplay of these two things, really piqued my curiosity. So as I’m, as I’m processing these things, what would you what would you want people to know about the complicated way in which Asian Americans are situated in race conversations specifically related to race conscious admissions and affirmative action?

Oiyan Poon
Yeah, um, I think when it comes to Asian Americans, there’s this parent, there’s kind of a paradox happening between or tension or dialectic, whatever you want to call it, but there’s these kind of situations where it’s, we’re trying to figure out who we are. Yeah, number one, right. So that’s the identity wrestling that I borrowed that term from Professor Carol Lee. And she talks about identity wrestling as a civic engagement. Right? So I think as a community, Asian Americans generally are still trying to figure out who are we, right. But we do know something to be true. We remain a community that experiences racial marginalization and violences. Right. And so that that is something to be that we collectively recognized in general, if I may use generalizations, and at the same time, you know, there’s mainstream discourses that are trying to make sense of who we are, right, and domain forces that appear in things like CNN, New York Times, right? The mainstream media, right that that then purport to know who we are. Without evidence, right, so Oh, so an example. Oftentimes, I’ll ask, like, who sued Harvard? Who Sued harbor? Right. And oftentimes, off the bat, people are like, Oh, Asian sued Harvard. That is not true. That is false. That is plain and simple. False. It was this white man named Edward Wright and but he did a repugnant ly frustrating campaign to bamboozle a lot of mainstream media and public conversations to make people think, oh, Asians are doing and he was leaning into stereotypes of hardworking, high achieving deserving Asian Americans, in contrast to undeserving, you know, stereotypes of black students, and Latin X students and Native students, right. So this pitting against each other, of communities of color. And at the end of the day, when you actually learn our histories, and what it actually we’re actually even the term Asian American comes from solidarity and the civil rights movement. And so it just, it’s, it’s been really frustrating to see this. And so I think this is what partly that identity wrestling is about, we’re trying to figure out who we are. And at the same time, the mainstream dominant discourse is already telling us who we are based on falsehood. Yeah, based on racial stereotypes of US and other people of color. Well, and

Mamta Accapadi
a false a false appropriating of, oh, this is racist. Right? Yeah. You know, and poor Asian Americans, this is creating a distribution or for Asians, for the poor Asian American population. So it, so then, as we’re trying to figure out who we are in society, we’re like, there is this, you know, I mean, fear is a powerful thing, you know, fear and sense of belonging, those are very, very powerful emotions. So that’s really, that’s really, really compelling to hear you reflect on Yeah.

Oiyan Poon
And I think one other thing about the complicated way, right, that Asian Americans are situated race conversations, especially in higher education, because so many of the conversations about race rely on notions of representation. Yeah. Right. I think it’s very important. Don’t get me wrong, it’s very important to use that framework of representation under representation, especially as a way to understand one symptom, a major symptom, yes, of the problems of systemic racism. But that doesn’t mean, right, that if you hit Oh, look, there’s parity. Now, that doesn’t mean racism is over. Right, if that was the case, and you know, oftentimes people will say to me, well, agency over represented, quote, unquote, in some of the most elitist institutions of higher education, and I’m like, Yeah, racism is still around. Have we not been the uptick in anti Asian violence in the last few years? If representation was the key to solving things like racism? Does that mean like racism is over like anti Asian racism is not a thing anymore? Right? No, it’s, that’s just not that’s such a narrow understanding. And then, you know, this goes back to my time as a student affairs professional was there were just I could draw from so many stories of Asian American students. Okay. A great, they’re in a University of California campus, but let me tell you all the ways that they’ve been made to feel they don’t belong. Or that, you know, just the various forms of psychological, mental emotional violence that they’ve had to go through. And this is not a oppression Olympics that I’m calling for. But I’m saying that we need to see the totality of outcomes of systemic racism.

Mamta Accapadi
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think you you invite and challenge us to think, you know, certainly, as you kind of reflecting back what I heard you say, reflection is one representation is one component for sure. Certainly not a singular, right, the singular factor. You challenge us to think about the condition of people and the historical and current contexts that inform those conditions, which continue. Right over time. I mean, I think, again, as you know, you know, I said, you know, your book is part history lesson. And even though I have read and study the history, I don’t know what it was when I was reading it, you know, over the past couple of weeks, I’m like, I know this. And I, I was lucky to I mean, I didn’t I didn’t experience or learn Asian American history until as a doctoral student was kind of when I was exposed. The Japanese American internment. So, but it was interesting, as I was rereading, you know, your, you know, just your, the chronology of court cases, I’m like, this is all happening again, it’s almost exactly the same, right? And so in a weird way, in a weird way, I was having a physiological response to that, like, oh, my gosh, and, and then in another way, when, when you then point out, and these are the ways that people addressed or in this, you know, like, you showed, glimmers of hope and opportunity, through those moments, and, and how solidarity movements and activism, Rose, you know, through through those particular experiences. So I just the only way we win.

Oiyan Poon
Yeah, right. And, you know, you mentioned, how do we raise our daughters who have immense privileges? Right. It’s not for guilt or shame to understand their poachers. I think, if anything, what my daughter has taught me is just like, Yeah, I have privileges, but So Should everyone else. Yes. Right. Like, there’s, this shouldn’t be a special condition, my, my comfort, my full belly, my house, my, you know, the fact that I don’t have to ask for things like that. Yes, I live a very comfortable life, this should be for everybody. Right. And she’s actually been trying to start a little she’s been trying to convince her friends in the third grade to write a letter writing campaign to Congress and, and our city officials around. You know, housing should be free. She’s like, this doesn’t make sense. Why is housing so expensive? Wow. So yeah, it seems like it rather than you know, there’s all these zero sum conversations out there. They’re gonna like, Well, are you gonna give up your privileges? And I’m like,

Oiyan Poon
yes, it means everyone else has the same level of circumstances. Let’s do it. Like, let’s let’s have everyone having safe and neighborhoods and well resourced every year like, Yeah, let’s do it. Yeah, absolutely. That’s what we’re fighting for, not for people to get left, but everyone to

Mamta Accapadi
Yeah. And it’s, it’s, it’s such a shift, right? I mean, I not my intention is not to use cliche phrases, but an abundance mindset that’s grounded in love, is the differentiating factor, right? And, but we tend to be, you know, sometimes, in the mindset of pragmatism, we go to this scarcity and fear based mindset, right, which then leads to kind of all these things that you talk about, but it’s just right, just as easy and well, or maybe the effort is the same, the effort is the same, to show up in a space of fear as it is to show up in a space of fear scarcity, as it is to show with active abundance and work for a common good. And, you know, you definitely take that thought through and encourage us and encouraged to also write, you know, as you talk about the series of choices you encourage her to think about. And so that leaves me with my last question, I mean, well, we’ll go wherever you go, but I don’t want to do spoiler alerts. But you do leave us with a compelling message of hope. I’ll leave it at that. And so I’ll just, you know, I would extend an invitation for, you know, you we tend to on the podcast, ask our colleagues, you know, in our last question, you know, what advice Would you give you know the the listeners and viewers our audience is specifically for our conversation in this particularly complicated time? What advice would you give us?

Oiyan Poon
Sorry, I had to cough. What advice? Yeah, this is an incredibly it feels like just endless years of this is a hard time. This is a difficult time. We’ve never seen terrible things like this before. But we have you know, when you think deeply and this was me, a Native American woman mentor of mine, was just like, I have no hope. I’ve lost all hope. Now. She said to me, What would our ancestors have said, in the face of genocide? Would we even be here? What would our ancestors have said in the face of colonization? And apartheid? Would we even be here? If they had said, there’s just no hope? Forget it. Don’t do anything. I’m just gonna throw my hands up. And I think about that, because it’s okay to feel like yeah, ups and downs, of course. Um, but I think it’s, for me, it’s been about being in community, like with folks like you monta and, and others just to be like, Hey, I’m feeling really low right now. And I need a moment. You know, I was feeling surely low after the Supreme Court ruling, because my whole career has been about supporting diversity policies and equity, the i right now. It’s called the EI and we’re sitting in a state right now that is big offices, and programs and budget. And something that I have found hope in, and very real hope is No, and I have this positionality to be in a blue state, right, I live in Illinois, is I’ve been wringing my hands over half the country. Right, that has been doing all this anti dei anti CRT quote unquote, stuff. But there is another half of the country, that if we can compel those leaders to push ahead, we’re a new, new creative solutions for a future that we deserve. Yeah. And our children deserve. But they shine away for a different possibility. Right. And, and, you know, full disclosure, I’ve been working with the governor’s office in Illinois, and I’m so inspired. That his leadership is Office has just been like, let’s think of new ways. Sure. There was the Supreme Court ruling, and I feel, you know, it’s, it’s devastating. It’s terrible. But as some of the leaders in our state capitol have said to me, okay, even when affirmative action was okay, there were still equity gaps. Yeah, what can we do now that even then we weren’t doing. So there’s an energy I think, there’s possibility, energy, and creativity. And I think for folks who are working in higher ed institutions, and student affairs division, I think about how, when I was an academic advisor, or when I was a student affairs professional, I still had access to various networks. And I understood how the system worked. Right, and there were little things that I could do to kind of just subversively push ahead a little bit of an equity agenda. And I got a lot of joy. As a faculty member, I was able to, you know, the classroom was my space. And I was willing to, really, I think we need to allow ourselves to be led by our convictions and values. And not by fear. Yeah. Right. Have a realistic analysis of your situation and reality and what you’re willing to risk but also know that you’re not alone and that you don’t have to do things alone. I think that’s the most important thing is to do things collectively.

Mamta Accapadi
So powerful. There are no words that I can have to kind of close that out. So we I I’m, I’m gonna have this kind of ad Um, and our conversation at that, with your, with your wisdom and hope, which I think so many of us so many listeners and viewers need to hear. So I’m just so grateful man for you to you for the legacy of our relationship as well. You just, I mean, every interaction that you have with me has changed me. And so I think about the many interactions that you’ve had. And now this book will have a ripple effect of, of critical hope, you know, in our communities, and I think we so desperately need that right now. So thank you.

Oiyan Poon
Thank you.

Mamta Accapadi
I just I love and cherish you. And I really want to thank you for your time and spirit today on on Student Affairs NOW. At this moment, I also want to take a moment to thank our sponsors Huron and Routledge, Taylor and Francis, we deeply appreciate your support. Huron a global professional services firm that collaborates with clients to put possible into practice by creating sound strategies, optimizing operations, accelerating digital transformation and empowering businesses and their people to own their future by embracing diverse perspectives, encouraging new ideas and challenging the status quo Huron create sustainable results for the organizations they serve. Routledge Taylor and Francis is the world’s leading academic publisher in education, publishing a wide range of books, journals and other resources for practitioners, faculty, administrators and researchers. They have welcomed stylus publishing to the to their publishing program and are thrilled to enrich their offerings in higher education, teaching Student Affairs, professional development, assessment and more. Rutledge is proud to support student affairs now view their complete catalogue of authoritative education titles routledge.com/education. I want to take a moment to give a huge shout out to our colleague and friend Natalie Ambrosey. The producer for the podcast who does all of the behind the scenes work to make us look good and sound good. Thank you so much Nat we really love you. And friends if you’re listening today and not already receiving our weekly newsletter, please visit our website at Student Affairs now and scroll to the bottom of the homepage to add your email to our MailChimp list. While you’re there, check out our archives. Finally my friends I’m Mamta Accapadi much love and gratitude to everyone who’s watching and listening. Please make it a beautiful week that honors your soul spirit and ancestral wisdom. Thank you my friends.

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