José-Luis Riera
Yeah, well, I think the other, or one of the other pieces of success we talked about, first of all, really cool to see a really, really diverse group of participants, right? So like that, that makes me think about the future of this field and think about, you know, who do we need leading us? What are the paradigms that they’re coming with? What are the experiences they’re coming with, but but the other side of that, I think, or I don’t know, if it’s the other side, but a dimension of that is, you know, really taking on, you know, identity centered leadership, like, what does that mean?

Keith Edwards
Hello, and welcome to Student Affairs NOW, I’m your host Keith Edwards. Today I’m joined by two folks who chaired NASPAS aspiring VPSA Institute. We’re here to talk about paths to the VP role, what is required for the transition to and SEC success in these roles and lessons learned from these aspiring VPSAs. Thank you both for being here to share this with us. Student Affairs now is the premier podcast and online learning community for 1000s of us work alongside adjacent or in the field of higher education and student affairs. We release new episodes every week. On Wednesdays find details about this episode or browser archives. It’s studentaffairsnow.com. This episode is sponsored by Routledge, Taylor and Francis view their complete catalogue of authoritative education titles routledge.com/education. This episode is also sponsored by Huran, a global professional services firm that collaborates with clients to put possible into practice. As I mentioned, I’m your host, Keith Edwards, my pronouns are he him his. I’m a speaker, author and coach, helping higher ed leaders and organizations advanced leadership, learning and equity can find about more about me at keithedwards.com. And I’m recording this today from my home in Minneapolis, Minnesota, at the intersections of the ancestral and current homelands of both the Dakota in the Ojibwe peoples. So let’s get to the conversation. Thank you both for being here. Let’s learn a little bit about each of you. And José, we’re going to have you go first.

José-Luis Riera
Yeah, Keith, thanks for having me on and excited to talk about this experience. So I’m José Rivera pronouns he Edelen. And I currently serve as the Vice President for Student Life at the University of Delaware, where I’ve been since 2010. Not always in that role in this role since about 2018. And I had the great, amazing fortune to co direct the NASPA vice president aspiring vice president’s Institute with none other than Claire Brady. So I can talk more about myself as we go through the episode. But just thanks again for having me.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, go ahead, Claire. Tell us about you.

Claire Brady
Hi, everyone. Thank you, José. Thank you, Keith. So I’m Claire Brady, I have worked in higher education, student affairs for 24 years now, I tease that I’m a recovering vice president of student affairs from Lake Sumter State College, one of the 28 community colleges in Florida, as well as Mendez University, which is actually based in Puerto Rico. And I’ve spent the last year or so working full time as a full time an educational consultant, my company is called glass half full consulting. And I work a lot with Student Affairs leaders, college presidents, and about half my business is actually focused in the area of AI in higher education. So that’s a big area of interest for me. And I had the great privilege of serving not only as a faculty member in 2022, with José co directing the Institute in 2024, we had just a great experience. So thanks for having us to talk about it.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, thank you both for being here. Interested in learning more saw some of the buzz on social media. But this seems juicy and energized and interesting. So happy to learn more about it. As you mentioned, you’ve been faculty and then you co chaired as you were tapped, or volunteered, or voluntold. Maybe you can tell us that story to co chair this experience. I’m super curious as you were going into it. What were some of the guiding approaches to planning this experience that you thought about for the participants, what were you sort of going in wanting to put into practice put into motion for them.

Claire Brady
I was really interested in making sure we honored the fact that it was an institute and not a conference or some other type of professional experience that our participants could engage in. For me as the co director, I’d had such a great experience in 2022 with our team, but it was coming at a different time out of the pandemic. We were in Florida, we were wearing masks, we were we were socially distanced from one another. And even though it was a really positive experience, I kind of wanted to redo at a later point. And I got that experience, this time around being one of the CO directors. For me, it was about creating not only just a really special and transformative experience for the 100 or so participants, but I was also looking to fill my tank and to have a professional experience along with the faculty. So the relationships that we build as a team, the hard questions, we asked each other the ways that we engage with building the curriculum and choosing the participants and all of the stuff that goes into a four day experience like this. And honestly, it’s also just really excited to work with José again. We had a really great experience co presenting and being faculty See before, we have vastly different skill sets, and they’re really complementary, we also have just a huge amount of trust. And we like each other a lot. We laugh a lot. It is that my belly hurt when I got back from this institute, because there were just so many great moments alongside our faculty members. So for me, that was those were kind of the big 500 feet in the air goals that I had going into the experience.

José-Luis Riera
Yeah, some something else that comes to mind for me. You know, this wasn’t about convincing these people to become vice presidents of Student Affairs, right? I think, in so many ways, we had so many conversations as a faculty. And we can come back to this in more depth as we talk. But this is a tough time in higher ed, it’s a tough time in student affairs. There’s a lot going on. I feel like even since the Institute, which was what, like, barely two months ago now, yeah, a month ago, basically. I mean, you know, the wave budget stuff, you just see that in the Chronicle. And I was just talking to my staff today, I don’t feel like that there’s no, there’s not many good stories on the cover of the Chronicle. Every day, it’s another constraint for higher ed or another challenge. And so I think I think it was really trying to, you know, see where folks were at and honor like, where they were in their careers and in this field, right, and not saying you should do this, or you should think this way, or good VPS think this way, or they think that way. It’s, it’s what has your experience been? Because I think part of if I can speak for you, Claire, because we had these conversations was, you know, like, this next generation, or whoever’s coming into these positions, not only the VP positions into Student Affairs, like that is the solution for the issues that we’re facing in higher ed. And if I were to apply my paradigms on that, and say, this is the way you need to be, I think that’s a disservice right, to where to where we’re heading. And so, so I think a big thing was, was just trying to sit with people where they are in their careers, and an honor that it’s a tough decision for any of us to leave a job and go into a new job, or whatever. And so we I mean, all the more when you’re thinking about a VP position, which, you know, the reality is, is a lifestyle choice, it is a decision you’re making, that pervades your life in really significant ways. And so really wanting to, I guess, make that a safe place that people can talk about, what are those things that they’ve wondered, like, seriously? Like, do you all really do this? Or is this really what it means? Or, or am I giving up, you know, x part of my life or whatever, and to ask those questions, because if they walk away, they’re not being able to ask those questions, which you don’t always feel safe to ask on your own campus. That would be that would be a mess.

Keith Edwards
I love this, because I think it can be kind of about ego, right? It can be the VP and ever since 20 years, I aspire to this. And it sounds like you really wanted people to be grounded in the reality of, do you really want to do this? Or, you know, I think a lot of my work with my coaching clients is helping them break free from the scripts they’ve been given. The hardest when they’re a compliment, like you could be a VP Oh, really great. And then you kind of take that on. And having people really wrestle with the realities of higher education, the realities of moving institutions, moving families, you know, buying a home or starting a new community and new friends, the lifestyle choice, all of this and making sure that people are really have really thought it through and aren’t just sort of following maybe a path that has been laid out before them. But making sure it’s their path. And sounds like you’ve worked really hard to hold space for people to really pay attention to that real reality really see what resonates with them really connect. Is this right for me? And if so, let’s go about pursuing it. But that seems like a really critical first step.

Claire Brady
Well, I think too, like we spent 15 months or so developing the curriculum, but we had to be agile in the moments and recognize what was happening in the audience and just what you just described, Keith, it’s exactly what happened the first day. We found so many of the participants talking to us about either, how do I fit myself into this mole that I’ve created this script that I’ve created in my mind because I’ve only ever known three vice presidents. And they all look like this dress like this spoke like this. We’re perfect. There’s a whole like perfect thing that was going on that we just we squash that immediately, right? Just by our own behaviors. But really, it’s this idea that like, they have this image in their mind. And these are these are qualified, seasoned professionals. But this was what our field does a lot of times, right? You only have one person who sits in this seat at any given time at an institution. And so they kind of base that mental model on that person. The second thing they did was they were trying to game how to get there. What do I need to like shine and polish, in a way so that you don’t pay attention to all this other stuff that I don’t think I fit this mold, right. And so we’ve recognized that the first day, and we immediately started messaging as a faculty in our small groups in the large group in our sessions, that there are multiple pathways to this role. There are various ways to do this role, there is not one successful template that you need to follow. But that institutional fit is a big part of that, who your bosses who your board is, those are all huge pieces of that, do you really align to the mission because the mission looks different at a community college and perhaps another type of institution, right. And in that our, our, our faculty really kind of hit all those various areas, more than half the faculty had been vice presidents at two different institutions. That brings a wealth because you make a lot of mistakes the first time and you do things really differently the second time, right? A lot of our folks had chosen institutions very intentionally or had different pathways didn’t have a doctorate chose to go the MBA route, instead, had chosen to be affiliated with Jesuit institutions, their whole careers, had chosen to go small, private, or has chosen to go Community College. And in just our physical being and the ways that we showed up at the table, I felt like that message immediately to the participants. There’s no one way. There’s no one way. But you can’t game yourself to this role. either. You have to have some requisite skills, right, you have to have the ability to fit into that cabinet. And we started to immediately be agile and change the way that we looked at the curriculum. And we saw immediate effect. And that I think, was a big part of us spending so much time together over the 15 months previous kind of being willing to put a curriculum together, but also seeing that we’re seasoned enough that we can kind of play with it. So that was a huge piece for us in that first day, especially.

Keith Edwards
A good plan allows you to improvise. Yeah, for sure. Well, I love that you began or maybe you didn’t begin, but maybe the first step that you inviting people into in a year you’re holding space for this, isn’t this right for me? Is this really what I want? Is this really, given all the things that come with it? But then I am imagining that a lot of this was about how do you make the transition and not to gain the system, but do so genuinely and authentically? And how can you be successful in these roles? What do you what emerged for the two of you through the Planning Institute? The faculty, the participants, I’m imagining there, you’re thinking about this has evolved?

José-Luis Riera
Yeah, for sure. I think there’s so many things here. I do think it starts all the way back in the pathways conversation, right? The the classic kind of Residence Life, maybe Student Conduct dean of students kind of halfway. Yeah, it does sound familiar, right. But But I think, you know, one thing we took note of, there was a subgroup of us in the faculty that looked at all the applications and and there was a disproportionate number of folks coming through like TRIO programs that were interested in the VP position. And and, and, you know, you started receiving the applications, looking at them looking at them, and then you start to see these trends and how fitting, you know, I mean, like, what are we struggling with? It’s student success. It’s, it’s retention, it’s access, it’s social mobility, you know, so, so I think one of the things here is, is that that was encouraging to me. And I think we’ve really tried to empower people to think about, you know, you can be this or you can carve your path to this. But then there are realities to that transition and to your success. And so, it’s not to say that you have to have a certain pathway. And it’s not to say, you have to do the job a certain way. But there are expectations at the end of the day, and there are relationships you have to make in order to be successful. And so I think one of those pieces is I think about the transition, you know, and Claire touched on this. We I think a lot of what emerged was around institutional makeup. And what is that institutional makeup? I think a lot of I heard A lot of, well, aren’t you really taking the job for the President? And, and we have a lot of conversation about that. And, you know, in my own personal experience, like, like, that’s, yes, there’s some truth to that. And you get like presidents, I mean, their, their average tenure just keeps going down and down and down. And so, unless I mean, if you’re in a place in life, where you’re willing to pack your bags at any moment, and move to the next place, that’s great. But not everybody’s looking for that type of lifestyle. So you do really need to look at what’s the culture of the institution, and often the culture is bigger than that one person, right? Those are those lasting things that sometimes people on campus can’t even name but but they’re there, and they, they matter, they affect what’s expected of you as a senior leader. And so So we talked a lot about how do you suss that out? How do you talk to folks about that? Even, you know, I think people at that that may be at this stage, often are folks that haven’t worked with search firms, and I think search firms are great, they’re awesome partners, I have lots of colleagues who are, are a search firm, folks. But they also make you feel like you’re really special. And that’s okay. I mean, that’s part of their job, right. But it’s not like you have to give up your entire identity or, or what your interests are in a job or, or what the conditions are for you to do. Well. So how do you think about that, and as a first time VP, where I think you probably feel very vulnerable, like you’re taking this job, and you almost feel like, oh, my gosh, I’m lucky if I get it. And so I think some of what emerges is how do you have that conversation? And and how do you remember that at the end of the day, that search firms are working for the university, they’re not working for you. They’re working for the institution. I mean, we hire them all the time, right to work for us. And that’s good. And so, so thinking about some of those basic things in that pipeline. But I would say, Claire, you can maybe pick up here. I mean, we talked lots about once you’re seated. And I think I’m thinking about that, that the session we had with, with President Lewis from Cleveland State and really thinking about this. This very, I think, an important shift when you’re a VP, which is, yes, your team, your leadership team of the Division of Student Affairs is vitally important. But your first team becomes the cabinet and what, and that’s a big shift for people. And that’s hard, particularly in a profession where our identity is so strong. I mean, we’re Student Affairs, folks. And now all of a sudden, you’re saying, you know, kind of my best friend has to be a VP of research or a provost or a VP of facilities, who may or may not really understand what I do.

Keith Edwards
Yeah. Well, before we go to Claire, I just gotta say, I love this point about president’s one of my favorite signs in my neighborhood. And my little walking route is a sign that says presidents are temporary Wu Tang is forever.

José-Luis Riera
Bobby, my next door neighbor as I

Keith Edwards
love it, and I think they meant it politically. But I think about it all the time for university presidents and leaders and so many people struggle with as these things are these things shift and change all the time. Thanks for let me get into that. And go ahead. Before we left, I love that.

Claire Brady
I think she liked the purpose of the institute is is it’s really unique. And even NASA has kind of group of Institute’s right. It’s not saying this is the institute that’s going to prepare you to be a Vice President tomorrow. Although I think that there are we know already that there are participants that were there with us a month ago that are finalists in searches right now. Right. But if you imagine that we had probably twice as many people apply as we had spots, because we wanted to keep the institute to a certain size to make it. How many spots do you have? We ended up accepting in the 90s. But we had about double that in terms of applications, right?

Keith Edwards
Participants and how many faculty seven.

Claire Brady
So our groups ranged with like 12 to 13, which is already pretty big, right? And so for us, the Institute had to fit a lot of people that were at various stages. So for some, it’s the next roll. But for others, it might be the next or even next roll. Right. So we had a lot of really big conversations about values align. We had some great conversations about identity conscious leadership. We had some really great conversations around cabinet as your first team as José said, What does a President expect from a VPSA? That’s different than they might expect from other cabinet members. We talked about fundraising. We talked about working with donors and going to football games when you don’t want to sometimes and the lifestyle component of when do you integrate your family and when Don’t write, how do you find that connection to the institution without kind of giving up all your personal time. And we shocked them, because most of us said, we’re home by 530. And I think that they have seen some pretty egregious examples of folks who have very bad work life integration, right. And so we shocked them in a lot of ways. When we said, Melissa, Melissa shivers, and the Ohio State University has a very specific calendar, she shared her calendar with everybody. This is a major, big 10 institution, a major Senior VP, and everybody was like writing down her schedule, even the faculty were because they were so impressed with how well she’s kind of scheduled out or days, right. And so it was really interesting, because we have to try to have a curriculum that kind of meets everybody along that spectrum. But we have to ask the big questions, because we’re also okay, at the end of the institute, if somebody says, this job is so not for me, yeah, right.

Keith Edwards
I want to be success. Number two, true for them. That is a success to get there. Yeah, there’s a lot that’s that for many people that can be a radical thought, huge.

Claire Brady
And in our last Institute, in 2022, we had a couple of folks that were like, I want to go into the wellness space, or I want to go into the counseling space, or I actually want to use my master’s degree in social work, instead of this. And again, that’s a win for us, right? Because it isn’t a job for everybody. And it may not be the job for you in this exact season. You ran it, it may be the next season.

José-Luis Riera
Yeah, yeah, I think I think about, you know, we had a number of folks who, maybe were seated in that kind of traditional number two role, who come out of this experience and said, I want to dedicate myself to being a really good number two, like, like, I understand the VP position from a different perspective now. And I’m understanding how valuable that solid number two is to the VP and like, what a gift right? Like I think about my own experience, and how important the people who are right around me are to, you know, my ability to advocate for students every day and to build this agenda and to help our cabinet understand students and the centrality of the student experience the university experience. So I that’s a huge one for me. Yeah, that’s huge.

Claire Brady
Yeah. Well, on the flip side of that, José, we also had folks that said, I didn’t think it was for me right now, because I have kids, but I’m seeing these faculty members who are talking about going to their kids play and never missing a practice. I didn’t think that was possible until somebody else showed me a different way they do it.

Keith Edwards
Yeah. And that can change. Right? I might want to be I’ve decided to be a number two. And then three years later, you go, yeah, I’m different now. Right? We’re all growing. And we’re all we’re all merging. Yeah. But I think that opportunity to think reflect discern is really, really possible. Anything else that you see that you might want to share with folks around the transition or success in the role?

José-Luis Riera
Well, what one thing that just popped into my head, Keith is, is I think, in terms of preparation for the role, you know, I think sometimes the instinct is what learning opportunities, and when we define that we think of like going to an institute or, or taking a different professional development course or whatever are there available. And obviously, that has its place. One of the things that emerged is that both, you know, prior to the VP, but being successful in the VP role, like the primary professional development, opportunity is the job. Like, and making sense of what it is that you’re learning, being, you know, reflective as you go through. So, you know, we talked a lot, and I think you’ll resonate with this, certainly, about the role of coaching. And in in, you know, in the course of a leadership position like this, and, you know, I think for some people, I think coaching is starting to really hit, like the whole higher ed scene. And you know, we are often a few years or a few decades behind, like, corporate America or whatever, in terms of this stuff. But but so there was a lot of interest in and many of the faculty are in active coaching relationships, and or we are also actively kind of stewarding coaching relationships with our leadership teams, or facilitating peer coaching that’s happening on our campuses. And so some of the successes is your, you know, you’re never going to be prepared. And as you transition that you can step into this role and be like, Okay, I have all my ducks in a row, things are gonna throw you and things are going to emerge that you need to know about or learn that you have no idea like they’re so complex, they’re under the surface And let’s face it, I mean, my president is not orienting me to this job. He’s not telling me these are the things you need to know. He’s giving me expectations, signals, I have to be listening, and looking and observing and talking to my colleagues. And so how do you learn on the job? How do you deal with some of the issues like loneliness, we talked about that, like, as you get to this point, so success in the role means being okay, knowing that you at certain points are going to be in your office, and question Who can I trust with this information? Or who can I reflect this information with? One of our faculty, and I love this. Alan Stewart event from Seattle University, talked about kind of having this team of people around, and if I’m remembering, correct me if I’m wrong, Claire, but it was a therapist, a pastor, and a mentor, right, a mentor, coach. And, and, and that, you know, he’s had these deep relationships with these folks. They’ve played different roles at different stages of his development, and pre him being a VP . But But again, it you know, what’s our network around us? And how are we paying attention to who’s who’s pouring into us and and who we’re looking to, to pour into us? Yeah.

Claire Brady
And in that moment, that I’m sorry, in that moment, keep that that Alvin told us that story. It had a huge impact on us I met with, I met with a participant yesterday. And he said that for him as a as a person as a male identifying person in the room, that he had had multiple conversations with men of color in the room. That was the seminal moment in the Institute for that. And I think the fact that it’s an institute, we can tell stories, different than these kinds of formal presentations that you would see more at a conference allows for folks to truly kind of be authentic and really share. And that, you know, he probably shared that on the third day, José. Yeah. But like it stopped the audience. Right? It was big.

Keith Edwards
I think that’s great as someone who’s coached a lot of hired leaders, including VPS, and in presidents is a really unique thing when you’re the leader, which I think VPS are and presidents are, it gets really lonely. I remember watching the president Macalester College walk around the faculty and staff social like no one would talk to him. Oh, it was just I just felt so bad. And I was like, Yeah, I’m not gonna talk to him. Because it’s an intimidating thing. What are you going to say? What did you get wrong? Yeah, it’s such a lonely thing. And I think one of the ways I talk about coaching is helping you find your rudder and keep your rudder because I think there’s so many things that say, can blow you off course and be like, you’re you’re thinking about the wrong thing. You’re paying attention the wrong thing, you’re on an island, you disagree with the entire cabinet, what is wrong with you? And have someone say, No, that’s really critical, and they need your voice. And just to kind of have that unequivocal on your side. I mean, I coach a lot of college presidents, I have no idea how to be a college president. But that’s not what coaching is coaching is helping that person figure out how they be at their best. And I think José, you’re pointing to self reflection and meaning making like this thing happened, who can I talk to you about it? And a lot of times as the VP, you can’t talk to anybody about it, right? Because of confidentiality, or is between you and the President? And that didn’t go well, but you can’t talk about it with the other candidate. Hmm. And so having someone and I love pastor is a good example. therapist is a good example, coaches, a good example, mentors, a good example having people who can just be on just on your side, on

Claire Brady
your side? Yeah.

José-Luis Riera
Yeah, well, I think the other, or one of the other pieces of success we talked about, first of all, really cool to see a really, really diverse group of participants, right? So like that, that makes me think about the future of this field and think about, you know, who do we need leading us? What are the paradigms that they’re coming with? What are the experiences they’re coming with, but but the other side of that, I think, or I don’t know, if it’s the other side, but a dimension of that is, you know, really taking on, you know, identity centered leadership, like, what does that mean? And that was a piece of success we talked about, you know, that that, again, knowing yourself, knowing, you know, what’s important to you, and what does it mean that you’re being true to who you are? And again, when you think about institutions and institutional cultures and are things jiving for you what happens when they’re when you’re in the job and you realize, oh, like, there’s a piece of the culture piece of the institution. I mean, you’re not going to be able to assess every piece of it. When when you’re in an interview process and so So I feel like that was an area where we both talked about how to be successful, how to prepare for that, how to move through that. But I also feel like the participants really resonated with that wanted to talk more deeply about that experience.

Keith Edwards
Great. I want to be a little bit more personal. So what did you to learn from the participants? You had these 90 Folks, what did you? What did you realize or know or understand differently at the end of the institute? Then when the Institute began? I mean, as you said, 15 months of planning, working with all these faculty putting so much thought into it? What did the participants have to teach you?

Claire Brady
So much? Yeah, well, I’m in a unique position, right? Because I’m not sitting in that seat anymore. I did it twice. I may go back, who knows? You know, we all get kind of tapped on our shoulders from time to time. But for me, I two words kind of really just resonate for me like hope and healing. I just kept hearing that from the participants like, it was probably the most collegial engaged, people weren’t on their phones, we weren’t on our phones. We saw people interacting in between sessions, we saw groups going to dinner together, I just saw this, this community start of folks who will support each other for decades to come, you know, I have this group of faculty that I’m now connected to for life, but they have this larger group that they can kind of lean on as well, as they start to head into a lot of these roles. Right? The healing part for me was that I felt like, folks were coming in with these really absurd views sometimes have the role, almost like caricatures of the role, like the person was wearing armor and had no emotions and was perfect in every way. And I feel like we’ve kind of smashed it in the best possible way, right? And they start to see themselves in the roles in a way of like, trying to place themselves in a role is different than seeing themselves being able to do the work. Oh, say that again?

Keith Edwards
Say that again.

Claire Brady
Yeah, it to me, it’s like, it’s not just about placing yourself of like, do I have this checklist of things, right? It’s this idea. Like, I can see myself doing that work, I can see myself in the cabinet table, I can see myself in the community advocating for this institution. And I even want them to see themselves being faculty for this institute, right. So like, I think we kind of smashed a lot of preconceived notions in the best possible way. And I felt like people were really open to it and engaged with it. But so was the faculty like, we were learning and growing as we were going as well, right. And what we thought a year ago was going to be like, the most important thing we talked about, wasn’t the most important thing we talked about. So I’m still learning from it, I’m still getting communication from the participants, I’m still posting jobs every day in our private LinkedIn group, saying, Here’s a job you might want to apply for. I have looked at more resumes, and last month than I probably ever want to for the rest of my career, right. But they are motivated and that like the best possible feeling for for the amount of work that we put into it.

José-Luis Riera
Yeah, I’m, I’m working this, this thought out, so so bear with me, but it’s about a little bit about what you just said, Claire, and then a little bit about community. I mean, I think one of the things, you know, as I would kind of try to stop and step back as I was observing the institute to happen, is, you know, we just had, I don’t, I mean, as much as we have ACPA, and we have NASPA. It made me wonder like, like, Man, this community is so important. And and it seems like we don’t do a great job, or campuses of like eliciting this community or facilitating this community, or I don’t know, it made me wonder, like, like, people just seemed thirsty to connect. And maybe it’s the moment in time that we’re in, you know, post COVID. And people are still maybe getting back to things but you know, people need some affirmation, they need support, they need a community of learning, like, how important is that? And we know there’s inequity is around even what campuses can support around professional development. And so, and again, we had a diversity of folks from community colleges from you know, our ones and everything in between and so it was it was wonderful to see that like there was something like really kind of inspirational I would say about just just seeing the the community piece but but there is this other piece and you’re definitely like leaning into it Claire around you know who Who who’s able to see themselves in this role as again, if they stepped back and, and looked at or listened to so so we had, we had primarily three modalities of kind of learning throughout the institute, right? We had like large group sessions. We had kind of mentoring groups, so each faculty member had 12 or 13 participants that they worked with, and then we had these guests with a called coaching session. Yeah, consultations, right. And so we introduced ourselves as like, fully as we could on the first day. And the idea was, if you’re resonating with something, you know, so in my introduction, that said, you know, I’m a dad of four girls, I’m, I’m in a duel, higher ed, my wife’s a faculty member, right, so like, like, these different attributes of who I am. And then people came and signed up for a 20 minute consultation with me because they had too many kids, or because they, you know, whatever, like, whatever. And so and so in those two, you got a little bit more personal, you know, and they were really asking advice, sometimes they were bringing in their materials. But this idea of helping them it gets chart a course where, you know, some of us are really fortunate. And I feel like, I’ve always been blessed to have some really great mentors and supervisors around us who are looking for that next opportunity for you, you know, who are who are saying, not only career wise, but professional development wise, or, or that committee that you can serve on and you realize not everybody has that, right. And so this was kind of an environment where everybody was for everybody. And it was just trying to like, like, help people. And so in the midst of that learning, like, the power of a learning community, and, you know, how do we keep that alive. And then and then the other piece with that is just the danger. And I hope this is starting to change, I don’t know. But I feel like I grew up in an era of Student Affairs, where VPS were kind of like elite, and they were like this separate class. And again, I was fortunate in my formative years to not be on campuses, where that’s how the VPS that I saw were, but, but how important it is for us to really be making this accessible, you know, and that we need, you know, as a vice president, what I learned is, as I’m working are moving through regional and national learning communities in this field of stopping and taking that time to be in relationship with folks that are just starting to explore, you might know more about this scheme. But there’s this concept of, and I’m trying to see if I’ll be courageous enough to try it. Of like, it’s, I think it’s called like reverse mentoring, where you actually find somebody, quote, unquote, lower in the organization to mentor you. But But this idea of listening to who’s who, who’s coming up, I mean, everybody sees things differently from their lens. And, and it was really cool to kind of have the time off of my campus to be able to listen to people who see our jobs or see the field differently than I see. Because that’s my, you know, I have this little echo chamber, I talk to VPS. That’s why I talk to you.

Keith Edwards
Right, right. Well, and I think that’s the whole notion that leadership is not a position but a process. And I find myself often reminding folks, particularly when I talk with with rds, for example, they sit around and say, you know, when I’m the VP, I’m going to do this. So when I’m a VP, I won’t do this. And I don’t know why our VP does this. And I don’t know why everybody does that. And they sit around and they just lament, what the VP could be doing. And when I sit with VPs, you know what they say? Remember when I was an RD and what I did actually matter, and I met with students, and now I’m just in meetings and but that’s when that can really make a difference. Right. And so I think it’s, both of those things are true, but how do we just not see when I’m in the VP role, that I’m a leader, but I get to lead now I get to lead in different ways in this process. And I think that’s where I think a lot of that reverse or intergeneric intergenerational Mentoring can be really powerful. Like, what do you know that? I don’t know.

Claire Brady
And I can almost argue like, the other areas within the university, like when we told them that our first team was the cabinet. They looked at us like for you. And we’re like, no, they’re great people. They’re, they’re awesome. They’re fun. I care about them. They love this university. They love our students. It just looks maybe a little different. But didn’t they look at us like, ah.

Keith Edwards
in the back Are you adding people who really don’t hurt Student Affairs? People? Who are research people? Or who are the CFO have different backgrounds, different perspectives can be, it can create conflict, but it also can be really rich.

Claire Brady
Exactly.

Keith Edwards
Well, awesome. We are running out of time. And we always end with this question. So this is Student Affairs NOW. So we’d like to end with what you’re thinking, troubling or pondering. Now, I just like to hear that from each of you might be related our conversation today or things beyond that. And then assuming you want to share where folks can connect with you, that would be great as well. So José, I know that you like you like to trouble. So what are you traveling? Now?

José-Luis Riera
I mean, honestly, if it was a first thoughts exercise, my immediate thought went to, like, our industry, right? And this. I mean, there, there just feels to be so many tensions right now around, you know, the the kind of financial constraints on our industry, and how do you? Like, it’s not okay to ask people to do things, you know, above their skill set and not pay them? Like, that’s not okay. It’s not okay to, you know, say, well, let’s just add another program. And we just keep adding programs, I was thinking about this, from an academic perspective, and they know this is not 100% True. But by and large, we like add new academic programs, we don’t take academic programs away. Like that’s not something we do in higher ed. And so the sustainability of that we’re in one of these other cyclical periods. And I think, I think we are in a cycle, right, like higher ed’s been through many cycles. I don’t think it’s dying. But by any means, I think there’s a lot of hope. But But how do we kind of capture this and think, or continue to think differently about the university continue to think about this, this one experience, I got to visit with our undergraduate student government. Last week, and, and, you know, it was struck, like, I so often, just subconsciously, I walk into the student center. And I think this is a student life building. You know, no student thinks, no student, no student walks into the student center and thinks, oh, this, this somehow is under the Vice President’s Student Life and the library and say, this is under the provost, you know, like, like, it’s, it’s, and so we do, you know, I think, in our traditional auxilary model, there is something to say we’d like to have, like ownership and property and that like, and there’s, you know, and I can kind of move the chessboard around, because I get this money from student fees. And you’re seeing more and more libraries and student centers being built together. Because the library is a student center. I mean, that’s really it’s, you know, our, our lack of dependence on books and things. And so, so I’m thinking about all of these things as a system, but at the same time, access and equity and holding all those things, intention. And can we do that, like, can we figure this out? And what’s the way through this? And so I don’t I don’t have answers, but those are some things I’m thinking about. But, you know, I think you know, because I love to think about these things. It’s really exciting. Happy to talk more about it, but where you can find me, you can look me up and email me and my UD email address or on LinkedIn. And my faculty will tell you, I think it was Melissa shivers. Last told me it was about three days late on social media, what’s going on with you, which is about what will happen, but I love talking to other other folks in the field and who are passionate about higher ed. So please, reach out

Keith Edwards
because you have your priorities, correct. That’s what that is. Oh, I’m not on Twitter. It’s so embarrassing. I’m like, it’s kind of sounds like you have your life together. Yeah. What are you pondering troubling thinking? No, always.

Claire Brady
So I’m like José, I’m kind of a mere inator. Right. And I’m always looking for trends or things that we need to be thinking about in our field. I have one related to the Institute and one not related to the institute. So the first one is this group of 90 plus people, I would hire every darn one of them, right. So they are incredible. And what I want to have is that they have jobs and places to go that are worthy of their greatness, right. And so I’m thrilled that their institutions invested in them and poured into them and send them to these Institute’s but what became very clear, was that folks who are LGBTQ center directors, folks that are trio directors, folks working at community colleges, folks working at Technical College I just don’t see a pathway to Vice presidencies at a lot of the institutions that we all know the names of right that we all know the logos for. And they don’t see themselves and they don’t see themselves as viable candidates there. And I will tell you that working at a community college was even better training than ResLife was for me, right? Like, I’ve had both. And I can tell you bootcamp, right Community College, doing every job, you could imagine, a community college professional, who’s in a Dean of Students role, could do an amazing job and an r1, as a VP of Student Affairs, I think we have to become more imaginative, more creative about who we think about recruiting, that we’re not just recruiting kind of these linear, folks. And I think we need to have a space and a place in a field that is welcoming and is ready for this group of really talented folks who are going to disrupt a lot of the tradition that we that we love, right that we pour into. And so the second thing that I’m always thinking about right now is how these new technological changes are having a huge impact on us. I spent last week with a corporate client in Nashville, they’ve had an AI workgroup Task Force for 24 months, they’ve had their policies in place for two years. They’ve adopted all kinds of efficiencies, free tools, all kinds of things that are helping them to do their job better. And I just think we’re focused on student success or are focused on personalized learning experiences and making sure that teaching and learning stays at the forefront. We have to be more open to adopting technologies like AI that, you know, I love and adore. But I love and adore them because I see the possibility of what they could bring to our field, especially given the budget constraints, especially given the accountability measures put in place by so many of our states. You know, I live in Florida. Nuff said, right. So for me, it’s this idea that like, there’s this technology that’s out there that we are just stuck talking about cheating, and plagiarism. And we don’t seem to be able to move beyond the fact that it could help us do all of the things that are mission critical to us. So that’s what I’m noodling right now. And my shout out for how you can connect with me is, my website is Dr. Claire brady.com. I’m also the moderator of a LinkedIn group group called AI in higher education. And I’m really finding a lot of community there. We’re sharing a lot of resources. You can find me on LinkedIn every day. And I do respond usually same day because I’m a consultant. So I don’t have student meetings and campus zooms to go to That’s your job. Right. That’s my job.

Keith Edwards
Awesome. Well, thanks to you both. This has just been terrific. I really appreciate you sharing your experience and what you learned from the participants. I think this is really rich, and thanks. Thanks for your leadership of the Institute and sharing it with us.

José-Luis Riera
Thanks for having us on.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks to our sponsors today to Routledge and Huron, Routledge, Taylor and Francis is the world’s leading academic publisher in education, publishing a wide range of books, journals and other resources for practitioners, faculty, administrators, and researchers. They’ve welcomed Stylus publishing to their publishing program and are thrilled to enrich their offerings in higher education, teaching student affairs professional development, assessment and more. Routledge is proud sponsor Student Affairs NOW you can view the complete catalog at routledge.com/education. And Huron is a global professional services firm that collaborates with clients to put possible into practice by creating sound strategies, optimizing operations, accelerating digital transformation, and empowering businesses and their people to own their future by embracing diverse perspectives, encouraging new ideas and challenging the status quo Huron creates sustainable results for the organizations they serve. As always, a huge shout out to our producer Nat Ambrosey who does all the behind the scenes work to make us look and sound good. And we love your support for these conversations. To connect with us more, you can subscribe to the podcast, subscribe on YouTube, subscribe to our weekly newsletter, where you get a reminder each Wednesday morning of our newest episode. And you can leave us a five star review if you’re so inclined. It really helps us have these great conversations reach more folks. I’m Keith Edwards. Thanks again to our fabulous guests today. And to everyone who’s watching and listening. Make it a great week. Thank you all.

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