Faran Saeed
I think one is the accommodations piece, which I don’t say are surface level, but are things that have shown up time again, over and over again. So you’re thinking about, you know, where are some places where I can pray on campus, so I don’t have to secretly pray on the staircase, as Dr. Ali had mentioned, or having halal food options and accommodations for that, or having as you know, a place of a sense of belonging, whether it’s a cultural center, or a reflection space, these are things that have been said over and over again, there’s research on this from you know, 2001 Till now, those are the things that are keep on going on and on. But the what’s what we need to do is, you know, acknowledge that is a real issue, because those are issues that haven’t been really addressed.

Glenn DeGuzman
Hello and welcome to Student Affairs. Now I’m your host, Dr. Glenn DeGuzman. So I read an article years ago, that prior to 2003, there was little to no research on the Muslim student experience on college campuses. And though although there’s more efforts taking place today, I’m still very curious to know how prevailing our Student Affairs practitioners are with knowing and understanding the Muslim student experience on college campuses. So in today’s episode, I am joined by a panelist of awesome professionals and faculty from various colleges and universities to share the experience. Student Affairs NOW is the premier podcast and online learning community for 1000s of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We release new episodes every Wednesday, find details about this episode, or browse our archives at Student Affairs now.com. This episode is also sponsored by Symplicity true partners Symplicity supports all aspects of student life with technology platforms and empower institutions to make data driven decisions. So to learn more about Symplicity, stay tuned at the end of the podcast, and I’m more than happy to share a little more detail about that. But let’s get started. My name is again, Glenn DeGuzman when I’m Associate Dean of Students and Director of Residential Life at the University of California Berkeley, I use he him pronouns and recording this episode, from my hometown Livermore, California, which is the ancestral home of the unceded territory of the peldon tribe of the Aloni. Peoples. So let’s meet our panelists. And so I’m very excited about this group. This is an episode for for those listeners, that many of our listeners have actually said, We want something on the Muslim student experience. And we’re talking about multiple builds made this request. And so I’m just very excited to bring this group together to kind of to get this conversation started. And I’m sure we’re gonna have more follow up episodes about that. So let’s get started. Have them introduce themselves, but I’m gonna kick it off with you for Ron, why don’t you introduce yourself to the audience?

Faran Saeed
Hi everyone, my name is Dr. Faran Saeed, I’m an unapologetically American, Pakistani Muslim, this work is very important to me. Thank you for having me on here. My research really focuses on Muslim college students and you know, particularly looking at those in in the south and mid south. I’m really interested in exploring their identity, and how they conceptualize that. Professionally, I work at the University of Wisconsin where I’m the chief diversity officer and oversee the DI efforts for the international division. And I use he him his pronouns.

Glenn DeGuzman
Thank you for the introduction. And my neighbor up in the north up in UC Davis, Affaf wanna introduce yourself.

Affaf Waseem
Hi, everyone. My name is Affaf Waseem, and I use she her pronouns. I work at the University of California Davis as director for the Middle Eastern North African and South Asian Student Resources Office, which is part of the Division of Student Affairs. I got into this work because I wanted the type of mentorship that I hope I’m providing my students, I came in as a Pakistani Muslim immigrant, and all of those experiences have shaped my worldview and who I am and why I do this work. And I infuse everything that I do with a sense of care and love and, and hoping that that is, you know, shown and my Yeah, and all the things that I do and is infused in it. So that’s my perspective and experience.

Glenn DeGuzman
Thank you for joining the panel, and I’m definitely looking forward to hearing your perspective. And our third panelist, Noor,

Noor Ali
hey, I’m Dr. Noor Ali. I teach at the Graduate School of Education at Northeastern University here in Boston. In all three of the programs that’s the Masters of Teaching the masters of Ed and then the Doctorate of Education program here, I lead the transformative school leadership concentration at a GSD here, I’m also a principal of a faith based or Muslim school in Shrewsbury Massachusetts. This will now be my seventh year as principal veteran teacher of 17 years. mom of three get this 20 year old 17 year old and four year old surprise baby girl. So totally in many different spaces, in terms of my work, predominantly interested in transformative school leadership, change agency, STEM education, but mostly most importantly interested in work around social justice and equity. Critical Race Theory is is my go to the theoretical framework, I’ve kind of coined a micro theoretical framework that I call most great. And I’m sure we’ll get to talk more about that later.

Glenn DeGuzman
Both definitely, in that website, that website that you have, it’s gonna be in the show notes audience, so you have to check it out. It’s unbelievable. You want research, you want some insight perspective, you got to check that out. So let’s dive in. And this is, you know, in transparency into the audience, this is a large topic. And we can go in so many different directions, and, and the time that we have together would not do it justice. So you know, one of the things that I’ve asked the panel to do is really identify with some of the things that they feel are most pressing to Muslim students who are attending college. And so I’m going to have Afaff, kick us off on the things that you see observe or experiencing, that the Muslim students are facing on college campuses.

Affaf Waseem
It’s such a great question I think to start us off with, but I do before I do start answering this question, I want us to be grounded in a couple of points. So the first thing I want to name is that the Muslim student experience is very diverse. There’s a whole spectrum. And it’s very important to recognize that the Muslim community is not only diverse, and racial and ethnic backgrounds, but also in belief and their own understanding of their own faith, along with how they practice and express their belief systems, right. So everyone’s coming in with a very different type of worldview, even if you have the same types of upbringing, within your cultural and religious context. Now, knowing that I always remind folks that we’re not a monolith. And so any type of conversation that we have around Muslim, Muslim American experiences, but even like Muslim students, specifically experiences, they’re going to be on a on a spectrum. So you know, keeping that intersectionality of identity in mind as well. Some of the challenges that I see within my role at my campus is has a lot to do with sense of belonging. So keeping that diversity perspective in mind, you have students coming in, and they are looking for a place of belonging, a community, and at times, it can be difficult to find folks with like minded perspectives, and at times, it can also be challenging, because not only is that diversity present within the Muslim community, but then there’s also the external stereotypes and assumptions that folks are making of your identity. So, so there’s like two things happening at once, which is like the internal diversity that you’re experiencing, and trying to find belonging and community and but you know, belonging this within your own community, but then there’s also external factors that can make that difficult as you’re navigating the college environment. Other things that I’m also seeing, or just microaggressions, so when folks are interacting with their advisors, with their faculty members, with other staff members within student affairs, housing, dining anywhere, they may experience you know, small moments where you have to continuously be an educator. So some of the things that I can think about are just navigating fluid and dietary restrictions, navigating finding places to pray, and, you know, navigating that between, you know, moving from your class to a reflection room, which might be on like another end of campus. Other things that I think about are, programmatically how we can support our students, especially during the month of Ramadan, where it can be a little bit harder to access some resources due to the change in schedule. Broadly speaking, I do think that all of this kind of compounds into other types of experiences too, right? Like folks may have challenges with accessing mental health counselors who can provide a culturally relevant perspective within within that environment. And so, one has to be an educator in many different ways. And that can be very exhausting when you’re navigating, not only your own academics, and your career and finding who you are, but then also being that educator right in those spaces. And then finally, all the things that a you know, 18 to 24 year old student may be experiencing It’s, there’s an added component to our identities being politicized as well. And so navigating the political environment that our country is in at different points in time, you know, across the generations and Muslim students that we have had, can impact our experiences. So I’ll hand it off to the next person. But these are just like, general challenges that I can kind of summarize. And like you were saying, Glenn, this is such a expensive, you know, topic, we can go in so many different directions, but I’ll hand it off to Noor, at this point.

Glenn DeGuzman
You know, before you hand out to Noor, I just want to comment that, you know, the microaggressions piece and just some of the different areas in student affairs where people their intention is to do their job, but the impact sometimes that they may have on on Muslim students maybe is impactful, right? I think about like, even in my work, prayer spaces and dietary restrictions, taking consideration on high holidays, those type of things that oftentimes are not on the top of practitioners mind, their intent is not to do harm, but sometimes they don’t realize what they don’t know. They’re moving forward and creating a little bit of microaggression and harm. So they’re very, very well said and well spoken. So thank you on that comment, Noor what are some of the things that you feel are pressing, maximalism?

Noor Ali
Before I go into into my thought process, I just want to add to the list. While while we have a fast running list going over here, I think the other two things that also pop up are scheduling the calendar in terms of you know, when are the exams taking place? Or where are you holding an orientation event where families are welcome to join, if it’s, if it’s on a religious holiday, for us, that’s like, not good practice. And then the other one is sports. I think that’s really important, particularly when it comes to you know, female students on college campuses, if there are any kinds of sometimes mandatory restrictions on what can not be worn and I’m referencing the hijab, or longer clothing, those things become really important, as well for us to consider. But my own my research, especially when I was researching for, for the book, I tend to think of this in terms of formal educational journeys and informal educational journeys of students because any college campus or any lived experience that people have in educational spaces can be formal or informal, as well. And I think both of those come into play in very impactful way, weighs in on college campuses. So in terms of for formal educational journeys, I like to think of that as the curriculum in particular. And we’re thinking about the curriculum, I’m really thinking about the acts, you know, curriculum, you can be explicit in a curriculum, but you’re also implicit in the curriculum. You’re also nullifying certain narratives in a curriculum. And then you are also very deliberately evading certain things in a curriculum. So whatever curriculum we are assigning ourselves off to for whatever course, there are these four things happening, there are things that are explicit, implied, nullified, or evaded. And I think it’s very important for folks and your who are interacting with students to really be intentional in thinking about what’s happening in this sphere of curriculum. I asked this question many times to folks, I asked them in your high school career, or even till the end of your college career. When did you read a fictional text as part of the curriculum that featured a either a Muslim protagonist, or was written by a Muslim author. And I get a mixed response, which is on this very narrow spectrum, which is a never or read something in my own time, or was assigned to me as summer reading, which you know, how we take someone reading, or they had read one of these two texts, and the two texts that often people will say are, I am Malala, by Malala yousufzai. Or they will say they read Khalid Hussein is Kite Runner. And I always posit this at both the texts are problematic as a part of someone’s formal educational journey, because both of those texts center the protagonist far away from the United States, which is to say the Muslim experience is not the Muslim American experience. The Muslim experience belongs elsewhere on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean, right? They’re not here These people are there. So there’s always this back home go back home where your parents from, but where are you really from all those kinds of questions, right? So it senders the protagonists there. The other thing that happens in both of those texts, is that the protagonist is heroic, because they stand out against conservative injustice and oppression that everyone was doing around them. Like, you know, those are barbaric places where everyone is oppressive, and it’s patriarchal to the core. And here you have the shining hero who stands out against it. But the real whammy is this. In both those texts, the protagonist is saved. By being plucked out of those geographical locations and been brought to the white western world, whether it is the United Kingdom in the case of Malala yousufzai, or for the protagonist in The Kite Runner brought to the United States, though it they re institutionalize the white savior myth. So we have to ask ourselves in terms of curriculum, where is the representation like so many times, like all the times, I’m coming across people who are saying, we actually never read about Muslim history, never in our high school, college career, it unless you took a course on Middle Eastern something, something and that’s a story for another day of how that’s politicized and what the narrative is like there. I think this is something really important for us to think about. And then the other thing, more in terms of informal educational journeys is the discourse that surrounds not the curriculum, but the discourse that surrounds the Muslim population. In all of the research that I did for the book, and beyond 98% of the folks that I spoke to, said to me, they felt guilty for 911. And the irony in it is that every single person that I interviewed was born after 911 911 will remain a devastating the uncomfortable conversations where there’s a Muslim present in the room. Because either people are either making eye contact, like what do you have to say, for your people, or avoiding eye contact, like awkward, what’s this person doing here? Or whatever the case may be, right. So I think the the discourse around how we talk about difficult topics, we are definitely afraid of being politically incorrect. But at the same time, walk into conversations that are so heavily politicized with already taking a stance, right about how this connects to this person sitting in my room. And the experiences that I’ve heard from students, I mean, blows my mind, I had one student whose last name was Akbar, every time the attendance was taken into high school, the person would you know, the person calling the roster would say the last name. And the students in the class would say, Allahu Akbar, right, which means God is great, but is, you know, you know, it’s packaged as a terrorist phrase. And nobody called those those kids out. This is not a micro aggression. This is a macro aggression. But engaging in difficult discourse becomes easier when you put your assumptions to the side, or at least recognize that you have assumptions. And I think that piece of it was just something that was coming over and over again, those students that are interviewed that had been in diverse college or high school settings had a far better experience than those who went to predominantly white institutions, because they stuck out more because, you know, oh, you trouble pretty good for a girl like you, you know, that’s a PE teachers comment, right? Or students still in high school, and colleges, finding spots where they can hide to pray, like, nobody should need to hide to pray. But it’s something that’s happening in 2023. And we talked about 911. But we really, I mean, we have to name this, this is post 2016 presidential election, hate crimes against Muslims went up by more than 60%. Right? You had a narrative of bigotry and hatred. This is not as simple as Okay, let’s just make this small adjustment. This is like a systemic, you know, narrative of oppression. That is, that was intentional and hateful at the same time,

Glenn DeGuzman
that it changes, it changes the conversation to it’s, it’s no longer respectful discourse, when you have narratives that are painted and people are digging their heels in with a perspective on on on a community or people that they know they might not have a lot of awareness about.

Noor Ali
So yeah. And also like it has to do with how we how I mute my own language, right. Like I remember when I was in doing my doctorate, and I said, you know, our population is really marginalized. I use that word and my professor, she connected He said your population is not just marginalize, your population is demonized. And I said yes, exactly. You know, we have to name this as it is. And I think that piece is is really powerful for me.

Glenn DeGuzman
Thank you for highlighting some really important issues. Faran.

Faran Saeed
I want to first I just want to affirm everything that my colleagues on this call have said, I think all those are true, there are a couple of things that are standing out to me that I think are important to name, I think there are different levels of issues that Muslim college students are facing, and Muslims are facing in general, I think one is the accommodations piece, which I don’t say are surface level, but are things that have shown up time again, over and over again. So you’re thinking about, you know, where are some places where I can pray on campus, so I don’t have to secretly pray on the staircase, as Dr. Ali had mentioned, or having halal food options and accommodations for that, or having as you know, a place of a sense of belonging, whether it’s a cultural center, or a reflection space, these are things that have been said over and over again, there’s research on this from you know, 2001 Till now, those are the things that are keep on going on and on. But the what’s what we need to do is, you know, acknowledge that is a real issue, because those are issues that haven’t been really addressed. Oftentimes, because, you know, the separation of church and state and non be able to be able to support students from one specific faith over another, when you can see that that, you know, other faiths have, you know, there’s a privilege that there’s Christian privilege to, to the, to the United States in the way that we operate, whether that’s calendars, holidays, even messaging that go out there. So I think in one sense, there is this accommodations piece. And then two is what Dr. Lee is are these systems of oppression that are important that we need to to not necessarily move forward from, you know, just around accommodations. And this almost surfaced of a thing, but we need to shift the conversation talking about systems of oppression, the racism, Islamophobia, discrimination that individuals face, you know, Muslim students, at least in my study, in my research, have shown that, you know, when jobs are being ripped off, you’re having physical assaults happening, almost some college students, even murder, a Muslim college students are resulting of these things. And so we shift the narrative to really talk about these isms, racism, Islamophobia, and these are the issues that are happening. And you know, some of the issues that I’m realizing in my study, and the participants that I’ve talked to my research where that, you know, students are not even recognizing Islamophobia. It’s so engrained into society that they don’t even see it. Now, when I talk about oh, vaping in someone’s face, that’s Muslim, that’s hijabi. Oh, it’s just because of a lack of, you know, awareness. Not sure if that’s Islamophobic right there that shows that it’s so ingrained. And so these are the real issues. And so when you think about identity as well, you can’t just focus on a specific image of what a Muslim is, you know, a five had mentioned, there’s a spectrum of experiences and how people navigate their religious faith. As you think about the intersections, you can’t say that, you know, I can do one monolithic view of a Muslim person, so you have to really take the intersections of identity, someone that happens to be a black Muslim, in the south, their experience is very different than someone that’s in the Pacific Northwest, that happens to be from a different sect, in an area. And so all these things have to be taken into consideration when you’re thinking about supporting Muslim students. And so, you know, these are what I’m seeing as the real issues that are that are that are here to stay. And so in one sense, we need to really focus on the accommodations piece, but another level, we need to push past that and really focus on dismantling and challenging the system that systems of oppression that are perpetuated in institution, these hegemonic institutions and this practices.

Glenn DeGuzman
Incredible Faran, I’m going to stay with you, but this is gonna be open to all of you, because I think all of you spoke to this next question, but I want to I want to bring this question up. Because I think some of the things that you’ve shared, I want to really kind of pull this all together, but I want to explore Islamophobia on college campuses now. Yeah, the question is really tied to the roots, what is causing Islamophobia all of you touched on it in your opening and the last question, and I’m curious to know about how can colleges help mitigate you know, is it you know, obviously, the if they didn’t have that awareness coming into college, as you mentioned, or like the awareness level is they don’t get that those ever Six minutes early. So they’re coming up to college campuses, we’re bringing all these different people all these different awareness and knowledge. What can college do to mitigate the negative impacts on on Muslim students? And this can be from a student perspective or a staff, or faculty perspective, I’d love to hear from all of you Faran, can you kick us off?

Faran Saeed
Yeah, I think it’s really important now that Islamophobia has been around for for centuries, you know, it goes back to when enslaved Muslims came to the United States. And so you can you can trace back Islamophobia. You know, most, you know, you know, the biggest event nor I mentioned is, you know, 911, that’s something that sits with a lot of people, especially, you know, people that are born post 911. And I would say that the 2016 presidential election that Dr. Lee mentioned, was a defining moment where oftentimes I equate that it’s almost like another 911 that happened in terms of the the impact that happened, but there are so many, you know, things are on Islamic group that has contributed to this. So you think about global events in the political climate, you have the Muslim plan that happened, you had the awful rhetoric that’s happening, and then there was not any individuals checking or calling out, you know, former President Trump on making those informations. But then you also think about media media has always had a negative perspective of Muslims, whether that be, you know, Islamophobic rhetoric, whether there are individuals that are being hired into doing these tear stereotypical roles in media in terms of terrorist narrative. Or there’s, you know, you know, institutional policies and practices that inadvertently discriminate against Muslims or really create an unwelcoming environment. And then, you know, I’ve often mentioned microaggressions, and kind of everyday discrimination, these are all results of Islamophobia that are that have been ingrained in that. And there, there are so many things that I believe that institutions can do. But I think the number one thing for me is on policy, I think policy is one of the ways that you can really make systemic change. Are the policies that you have with institutions and universities, are they there for just guidance? Are they really causing systemic change? And so I think you as senior leaders, Student Affairs, Provost, presidents have to really look at the policies that you have on campus and see if they’re really actually having the impact that they’re intended to have. And oftentimes, that’s not the case. And so I think policy is important. And I think also the it needs to come from the top, I think senior leadership need to openly call it out. And you know, oftentimes people want to avoid that. So they don’t sound politically incorrect. I think I would rather have someone say something than not say something, even if it’s not 100% accurate, incorrect.

Glenn DeGuzman
Affaf, or Noor you want to add

Noor Ali
Sure, I can go ahead. Um, I think also, post George Floyd’s murders, protests because black men continue to be murdered every single, you know, it just continues on and on. But the post that time we saw initiatives that were very performative in nature by institutions and organizations across the country, in terms of putting forth dei vision statements. And I think it’s really important when we’re thinking about vision. And when we’re thinking about policy, that the work we’re doing is not just a tokenistic check the box of yes, we have Adi statement, I think that’s really important. And I think it begins at a space that I call avoiding religious blindness. I think just like, you know, some decades ago, being colorblind was the thing to do, oh, I don’t see color. And we understand how problematic that is to to say we don’t see color because that literally means you are invalidating the experience of a people. I think that the same concept can also be applied to religious identity is not something that is meant that we are supposed to be neutral or blind to it is something that we are so you know, we should be acknowledging and then making those accommodations that Firaon was speaking about. It can only happen once you acknowledge what’s in the room. And I think a lot of times, the experience of Muslim students is one of invisibility. It is one of invalidation and sadly, sometimes it is self invalidation as well. Because, you know, Muslim American students, whether they’re born or raised here, or their families came from a country that was colonized or themselves came from a country that was colonized, whatever the whole new gamut of experience, maybe there is also a self invalidation that comes into play where you don’t want to cause a ripple, where you don’t think your experience is relevant to the mainstream. So you make yourself smaller. And I think that college campuses campuses have this obligation that no one makes themselves smaller. And we can only do that if we amplify the experiences of all our students.

Glenn DeGuzman
Affaf, you know, obviously, a lot of the listeners into the first now are newer student affairs professionals. And I’m curious to know, from your experience, with the recommendations you have for them, to learn about inform themselves when working with today’s Muslim students.

Affaf Waseem
Before I go and answer that question, I wanted to actually contribute to the prior question that my colleagues have spoken about, I. First of all, I just want to say that I appreciate how both foreign and newer kind of synthesizing both from like a theoretical standpoint, as well as from a practical standpoint, the impact of Islamophobia, and like where it’s coming from, right, I actually wanted to provide a different perspective as well, because we’ve been talking about our political climate. There’s this amazing piece of work written by Mira Islam, and she has written about soft Islamophobia, which talks about how you can find Islamophobia as a system of oppression, particularly in left leaning institutions or in social justice movements. And I think we don’t talk about that enough, either, where folks may be, like you were saying, then they may be well intentioned, but they don’t know how to support the Muslim community at the various intersections and identity that they hold and expressions that they hold. And sometimes it can be very uncomfortable, because they don’t know how to support an individual with, you know, with a religious or a specific religion, particularly here in terms of, you know, being a Muslim, like, their perspectives and how to support them within the institution. And just like, generally, as well, like, apart from like, being a student, but like, as a person, like, how do you interact with someone who’s Muslim, and I don’t think people know that. So I just wanted to kind of name that as well. And the other piece of this being that, because of that lack of information or knowledge, there is a fear or a discomfort. And I think folks aren’t as courageous to kind of lean into that discomfort to identify where it’s coming from. Because at times, it’s easier to be silent, like Fran was saying, than saying something. But we would rather that than anything else, right? Because stepping into that discomfort means that there’s an opportunity of growth and education, and perhaps dismantling a system of belief that they have, which is oppressive to another community. Right. So

Glenn DeGuzman
love that knowing Lina and oftentimes it is leaning in to change careers, first with yourself in order to enact change in the greater community. Noor, I want to go back to something we mentioned in the very beginning. You know, Fran, thank you for sharing. That her website, because I enjoyed reading some of the research. And I realized, you know, and one of the things about having this episode hosting this episode is I get to learn a lot. I learned a lot just kind of perusing it, I learned what I I just don’t know a lot. And so, Noor, I wanted you to do a deeper dive quickly on the Muslim women and their experiences, and what are some of the factors during the first professional aware of particularly when it comes to

Noor Ali
Muslim women? Yes, so just to backtrack a little bit, the micro theoretical framework that I’ve done, like critical race theory, you know, we all know what Critical Race Theory is about, but subsets developed under CRT to capture the particular nuance of the unique experience of different demographics, like last grade, or femme queer, queer crit. And when I was doing my work, I was like, there’s nothing that captures the experience of the Muslim American, which is why I coined the theoretical framework and, you know, thought about the tenets that would fall under it there. There are several tenets there. There are some that I find personally more powerful than others. Some of them go on to explain the Islamophobia that we were talking about in terms So for historical, political, social contexts, I won’t go there now. But two or three that I find that really resonate with me in terms of the female, the Muslim woman, American experience is. One is identifiability. I think that’s huge. This is a unique situation. If you compare it to other demographics, this is a unique situation, where identifiability plays a very big role into how someone is going to be treated. Like if someone can pass off as not Muslim, their experience is very different from someone who cannot pass off as not Muslim. Now, you can be identified in many different ways, sometimes people are able to tell by the name that you have, sometimes they’re able to make an assumption, actually, that you are Muslim based on the name that you have, or the way that you speak, or the color of your skin. And sometimes they can make mistakes, that happens more often than not. But the experience of wearing a hijab for a for a Muslim woman is a very clear, identifiable marker, right. And I mean, the participants that I was interviewing, some of them even went as far as to say, I haven’t had this experience, because I’m light skinned, and I don’t cover so nobody can tell. And my name is, you know, something that is not so Muslim sounding, you know. So I think the identifiability pieces is really huge. And those students who are so easily identifiable as Muslim need the additional not just support, they need additional networks of safety and security, because it’s almost like they’re saying, Here I am, you know, if you have an ounce of bigotry or hatred in you, this is where I am. So I think that piece is is really, really huge. And those participants spoke to me about their experience of, you know, when they were not wearing the hijab, as opposed to when they started wearing the hijab, then how they felt you know, the tides change, or sometimes it’s a conversation starter, sometimes it’s what is going to trigger a lot of assumptions in people like, Oh, she won’t know how to speak English, or she doesn’t have a doctorate. Like when they’re done that I’ve had my, my sheer of all of these being told to go back home, or are you a terrorist, all of those types of things. And the second one, I think that’s also really important is gender. I think that that plays a really important role in the Muslim experience as well, because Muslim women are often seen as oppressed and Muslim men identifiable are often seen as oppressors. Before they open their mouth to say anything, these two target assumptions just kind of follow along in the narrative, right? If you’re a Muslim man, you are going to be seen as oppressive, assertive, barbaric, someone who’s controlling all of those types of things prone to acts of violence. If you’re a Muslim woman, you are in need of rescue, you are in need of liberation, let’s have a panel and talk about why XYZ is not a freedom of choice conversation or whatever the case may be. So, in the case of this demographic, which is very unique to other religious groups, gender plays a critical role in how the the interaction is going to take place. identifiability plays a very critical role. And I really think that the counter narratives, which is another tenant, also nCrt and and musket are critical in dismantling the the narrative that is out there. You know, people often say, if you don’t tell your story, no one is going to tell your story. And I’m like, actually, no, if you don’t tell your story, someone else is going to tell you a story. And that’s the real danger because it’s going to be a whitewashed hijacked sabotage version of your narrative. So get up there and you know, speak your counter narrative is important for it to be heard. So I think those three pieces for me are really critical when it comes to the experience of Muslim women.

Glenn DeGuzman
No counterpart in there narratives speak up. I love that. So we are close to at a time. And, and I’m pausing because I’m trying to absorb a lot of the wonderful information that I’m listening to, and I think our listeners are going to feel the same. This podcast is called Student Affairs. Now, if each of you can take a minute or two to summarize, what are you pondering about? What are you questioning? What’s exciting, new about or what’s still troubling you? Or you know, has been troubling you obviously, regarding this topic, and I’m gonna have Faran to kick us off with this question.

Faran Saeed
There are a couple things that you know, are coming to mind. I think one that’s really troubling me Is that we’re still having this conversations around accommodations. You know, I did something similar to this podcast eight years ago. And I talked about very similar things around accommodations, those things are still being asked to from students. And so I think that’s really troubling me. But I think one that gives me hope, and Nora has mentioned is the power of storytelling and countering the dominant narrative. Counter storytelling has the power to, you know, challenge the dominant narrative and to reclaim that narrative. And so it’s important for administrators, peer staff, faculty to really listen to students and their story. Because their story can really be the make or break for you to support them in their in their accommodations, and can really help you move away from these, you know, the dominant narrative of Muslims. And so I think there is a power of storytelling, it can elicit transformational change, both for the individual, but also the person that is having those specific views. And so I think for me, those are the two things that are sitting with me, and are really important moving forward.

Glenn DeGuzman
Thank you. Noor want to go next.

Noor Ali
Sure, I’m, I’m annoyed at I’m gonna quote Leonardo Zeus, who said, the slow pace of white fragility that annoys me, where, you know, this is still a topic of, shall we do that, whereas the demographic itself feels a sense of urgency in, you know, in in addressing that, I think a lot of it also has to do with for the long, and this is something that excites me. For the longest time, the Muslim educational research has been minimal or invisible. And I think that that’s something that really excites me, I was able to host a symposium just a few months ago, where like, 40, plus people got together 15 Plus worth sharing the work that they’re doing on the Muslim American experience. So that really excites me that there is momentum for this conversation to build, for us to network and not be in silos. Because I certainly don’t want the accommodations or the policy changes to be perceived as the benevolence of people in leadership, that is not what it is, this is not an act of benevolence, this is an act of seeing it like that would be an act of privilege, you know. So I think it’s really important for us to own the narrative, and to push for the change that needs to come.

Glenn DeGuzman
Thank you. Affaf, close this out.

Affaf Waseem
A lot of things trouble me, and a lot of things bring me hope. But I think that too, that I’m gonna focus on for this is the first being that I am worried that our institutions are not equipped, because we have not been keeping up with the pace of what the communities need. And so what I mean by this is that, I mean, both of my colleagues have already pointed out like, like Faran, you mentioned that we’ve been talking about accommodations for so long, and nothing has happened. And then Noor you’re mentioning that says, like, systemically, like there’s no, like real movement happening, right? Like, we’re kind of like dragging our feet. And what is troubling me as I’m kind of seeing this from, like, a broader perspective, is that our institutions are slow to make change. And our challenges are increasing. And so what I’m thinking a lot about are the inter community complexities that are coming up. I mean, a lot of our discourse here is definitely being shaped by, you know, leaders within the Muslim community, but then I’m continuously looking at our student demographics, and I’m hearing differences between different sects of Islam, I’m hearing differences between different ways of expression. And so and, and those are just challenges that our staff are not equipped to, you know, keep up with at times. And so sometimes I worry about, how where’s our community gonna go, you know, from here, and I hope that we continue to like hear each other and continue to coalition build within the Muslim communities so that we can advocate collectively for ourselves and move forward. So that’s the first part. The thing that brings me hope is, when you’re kind of deep in the work, it’s hard to see the change, but I look back at the past 15 or 20 years and I think about all the different centers or resources or staff members who are in positions of power, who are able to to influence and make change, even though it’s slow, I’m like, we’re still like 10 steps ahead of where we were, like 10/15 years ago. And so I tried to keep that perspective in mind, because it would be nice to be further, you know, further out, but I, I try to see the other perspective of like, it could be so much worse in some ways. And it is, I mean, I have to be honest, like, I think at some institutions, it’s a lot worse than it, you know, it should be so not discrediting, just crediting or discounting those experiences. But I think there are resources and staff members available. And I think a larger network of support than there was probably, you know, many years ago, so, sort of looking at that as like a hopeful thing. But I do see that there’s a long road ahead for the work that we need to do. Still.

Glenn DeGuzman
Thank you Affar, I don’t normally answer this question as a moderator, but I’m going to answer it. Because I’m pondering a lot of things that you’ve all shared. I think one of the things that I’m thinking about, you know, particularly some of the comments that were made earlier, about, you know, some of the issues that the Muslim community has experienced, it’s still ongoing. And, you know, I think there’s obviously a lot of hope that, you know, this episode is going to reach a lot of our professionals out there to make, how they can increase their, their knowledge and awareness where they can make a difference in their work, particularly the Muslim student community. But also it’s a call out to administrators and policymakers, I think that there’s a lot of resources and information now and this podcast in itself, so just telling me, what are we doing so to the, to the newer professionals, medical professionals listening for this on to the, to the your vice chancellor, or your vice president, or your provost to see, to listen to some of the things that and how we can maintain attention on this community, a lot of the community, things that you’re experiencing, I can connect to some level, you know, as a Filipino American and some of the things that my community has experienced in terms of like, research and awareness of knowledge, oftentimes getting pushed aside or sidetracked or not really. So the momentum slows down. So I hear you, I think this is a phenomenal, great first episode, and you know, to our listeners, I’d love to hear back from them on on where we want to go with this this topic because this should not be the last. And we need to continue this conversation and keep the momentum going. I want to thank our guests, Dr. Faran Saeed Affar Waseem and Dr. Noor Ali for joining me today on this topic. I want to thank in advance Nat Ambrosey who behind the scenes does all the episode preparation and the transcription and does all the cool phenomenal things into Heather who also design the graphic. So simplicity thank you for sponsoring this episode. Symplicity is the global leader in student services technology platforms with state of the art technology that empowers institutions to make data driven decisions specific to their goals. A true partner to the institutions Symplicity supports all aspects of student life, including but not limiting limited to career services and developments Student Conduct while being student success, accessibility services. And more. If you want to get more information on simplicity, visit them at symplicity.com. And that or you can connect with them with on Facebook or Twitter or LinkedIn. Just take your time out. This panel dropped a lot of knowledge and there’s a lot of resources and books and information, we’re going to make sure that they’re on the website. So we’re going to put that in our show notes for those who would like to do some follow up or to maybe potentially even connect with one of our panelists. So audience listeners, thanks for joining us again. If you’re not on our weekly newsletter, please do so go to our website studentaffairsnow.com. Scroll to the bottom of the page, add your email to our list. And while you’re there, check out the archives. We’ve been going strong since 2020. And we continue to just garner more downloads and views on YouTube and Spotify, pod iTunes podcasts and whatnot. Again, my name is Glenn DeGuzman. Thanks for listening and watching and wherever you are. Make it a good day. Bye everybody.

Ali, Noor (2022), MusCrit: Towards Carving a Niche in Critical Race Theory for the Muslim Educational Experience (Taylor & Francis).

Mazal, K. (2014). Muslim Student in Higher Education. ACPA Developments, 12(3). https://developments.myacpa.org/muslim-students-in-higher-education/

https://www.taylorfrancis.com/books/edit/10.4324/9781003445456/islamophobia-higher-education-shaun-harper-shafiqa-ahmadi-darnell-cole
https://www.namiraanani.com/writing/2018-9-15