Carolyn H. Livingston
And, you know, the other piece that I said to some colleagues a couple of weeks ago, I said that students come to our respective small college campuses expecting perfection. And when they don’t get it, they’re disappointed. Right? And they expect perfection. And they expect us to deliver that to them because the world is imperfect. So I think there’s even more pressure on our small colleges to be able to do that. And so the future of Student Affairs, particularly at the, at various levels, is What do we do about that? What do we do about that and maintain the trust and maintain an adequate workforce? All of those other things? I think it’s just gonna get harder.

Keith Edwards
Hello and welcome to Student Affairs now I’m your host Keith Edwards. Today we’re discussing Student Affairs at small colleges. This is near and dear to my heart I attended a small college Hamlin University. I spent eight years working in another small college Macalester College. I’m excited to have the editors of a new book on Student Affairs in small colleges Small and Mighty. Here to discuss. Student Affairs NOW is the premier podcasts and online learning community for 1000s of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays find details about this episode, or browse our archives it’s studentaffairsnow.com. Today’s episode is sponsored by Symplicity. A true partner Symplicity supports all aspects of student life with technology platforms that empower institutions to make data driven decisions. As I mentioned, I’m your host, Keith Edwards. My pronouns are he him, his are the speaker, consultant and coach. You can find out more about me at Keithedwards.com. I’m broadcasting from Minneapolis, Minnesota at the intersections of the ancestral homelands of the Dakota and Ojibwe peoples. Let’s get to our conversations and meet our guests. Tom, let’s go ahead and start with you.

Tom Shandley
Okay, good morning. My name is Tom Shandley he him. I am currently retired from the world of Student Affairs in Academic Search is the one of the senior consultants recruiting primarily in student affairs. Prior to that, though, I spent 41 years in student affairs work 31 years as the Chief Student Affairs Officer at three different private colleges.

Keith Edwards
Right, glad you’re here to Christa.

Christa J. Porter
Hello, everyone. My name is Christa Porter, I use she her pronouns. And I have the pleasure of serving as our Associate Dean of our graduate college. And my academic home is as an associate professor in our higher ed administration, a student affairs program here at Kent State. And I am so excited to be connected to my colleagues through my work as a doctoral student working at small colleges, universities, and I’m sure I’ll be able to share a little bit more later. But that’s how I come into the conversation.

Keith Edwards
All right, wonderful. And my neighbor, Carolyn.

Carolyn H. Livingston
I am your neighbor, Keith Carolyn Livingston. I am the Vice President for Student Life and dean of students here at Carleton College in Northfield, Minnesota, Keith and I happened to be a little less than an hour from each other. And so it’s such a pleasure to be here with him and talk about something as well, as Kristen just iterated that’s near and dear to my heart, the small college and student affairs, and so happy to be with with all of you today.

Keith Edwards
Wonderful. Well, let’s jump into it. You’ve edited this book. Each of you wrote some parts and you had a lot of contributors, including your own Mamta Accapadi, and other wonderful folks. But for folks who are less familiar with small colleges, how is student affairs work different in small colleges? And are there any myths you would like to dispel? Carolyn, we’ll start with you.

Carolyn H. Livingston
Sure. You know, Keith, I think that being at one, a small college and a university is an amazing thing. I will say that I did not begin my professional career at a small college. Neither was I educated at a small college as well. But there’s something special about the work that we do here, the type of students that we impact. As a senior student affairs officer, the high touch, high impact work that we do on a daily basis. It is nothing to say that we really do our best and often are able to touch base and talk with every student on our respective campuses being on these campuses. You know, small colleges spend 5000, but many of our campuses are less than 2000. So we are small colleges, we high touch impact. We connect with not only our students, but we connect this well very well with our faculty and staff. And I do believe that being at a small college as well, that we are actively engaged in the life and mind of the college in ways that other folks can’t experience at bigger places and so near near and dear to my near and dear to my heart.

Keith Edwards
I really resonate with that. I mean my experience as a student was I knew a lot of people and was known by a lot of people in my experience as a staff member was being able to know just about all of the faculty members by name and it always felt like I knew just about all of the students by name by the time they were graduating, I can’t imagine that was actually true gift numbers in my memory. But it felt like I did. And that was a really wonderful thing. Tom, you were at three different small private campuses you mentioned, what would you like to add?

Tom Shandley
Well, I guess I want to say that I’d be that my college experience was at a small college. And I’ll and I, so I grew up both around the college campus, as well as attended the same institution, college. And I, you know, what I got to know, all the folks in student affairs early on, which was a real stimulus for me to consider that work. But having been served as the Chief Student Affairs Officer of those institutions, I think I’d echo what Carolyn had to say. But I think one of the things that was mind I kept, kept track of the entire time I was there, I was very mindful of and that is, because we make so many decisions every day, that affect the lives of students directly at a small college. It’s it’s an enormous responsibility, and an enormous pleasure. It’s impossible to walk across campus, as the dean, and almost every student know who you are. I had done my undergrad, my graduate work at the University of Minnesota. So you know, this well, I suspect, walking across campus, you could you could completely be invisible. That to campus, a 1500, where it was exactly the opposite. I guess the thing I would say is, while relationships are important everywhere, as colleagues are absolutely vital, to develop effective relationships with faculty, with other staff, with student leaders, it’s all about them. That’s how things work much more than the two large public institutions that I had previously worked at. You asked us to reflect on myths. And I’m I think there’s a myth that because we’re at a small college, it’s less complex, might even be less demanding. And of course, it’s probably just the opposite of that. We’re pretty much on day and night. You know, we don’t have the the scores of staff below us. So we’re very likely to get those late night calls or crisis. It’s not ever I don’t think less complex.

Keith Edwards
Well, I was just sort of thinking about it. Maybe at a larger campus, there’s more of a stay in your lane. This is your role. Everybody else has their things. We’re a small campus, there’s like, our lanes are all criss crossing all the time. There isn’t that. Christa, what would you add?

Christa J. Porter
I think just to build on what you just said key, it’s. So as a doctoral student, I was able to get went to University of Georgia for my for my doctorate, but because of proximity to Atlanta, and Decatur, I was able to and because I just got to meet Carolyn, I got to serve at both Agnes Scott and Emory. And then the specific example about the sort of crossing lanes is I remember we were in an assessment planning meeting that Carolyn let me sit in. And the amount of collaboration that was happening right before my eyes, it didn’t matter about titles didn’t matter about positions. Everyone was at the table, everyone, it was a lot of people, right. And so this full committee of different folks from across campuses all had to say all voices were heard. And all were able to contribute to this, this document, right, this plan, the strategic plan. And so I think that’s an example of the intent, the intention, and the collaboration that happens at a small college specifically in student affairs divisions.

Carolyn H. Livingston
And I can sort of piggyback on Chris’s point and also blend something you know, that Tom shared, you know, when you talk about relationships, it’s not only faculty and staff, and students, but I think in particular at a small college, it’s the parents and the families. It’s the it’s the alumni, but it’s also, you know, small college often equates to small town. And so the visibility that the DEA or the senior student affairs has officer has in the community is extremely important. And you know, if there are things happening in the town, community members when I go into the grocery store, or when I go to the local store, they are likely to say, Hey, I saw a student do When this or I saw some students at the, you know, the local coffee shop, all these types of things. And so it’s the relationships that exist beyond the people that we see on our campuses every day. And I think that’s critical for the for the small college.

Keith Edwards
Yeah. And I love that, that no knowing and being known, is a double edged sword. Right? There’s, to me, that was fantastic. My daughter who’s 13, the idea of being on a small campus where everybody would know her is like, why would you want that? That’s terrible. And so I think it’s not, you know, for different folks. And I think that goes with where student affairs professionals, I think there are some people who really want like, like you’re talking about this really direct student impacted student influence, much more of a retail sort of like knowing them, talking with them, meeting with them. And others much prefer a much more indirect, more wholesale approach at a larger institution, we’re having an indirect impact on maybe larger folks. And I think, really appreciate you laying some of that out. I think one of the funny things, go ahead.

Tom Shandley
Well, let me just, I think jumping on one thing we didn’t mention that I think is critically important in small colleges. And that’s the, that’s the importance of staff development. For small colleges, either because of limitations and resources, or the lack of mobility, in terms of professional development, and moving up, you know, the importance of doing staff development on campus where your staff, or if you’re able to support staff development by attending professional conferences, is really important. And I say that because for so many of the staff that we were responsible for, they can’t, they probably won’t get promoted. There’s just not the same possibilities there that you might find in a large public, for instance. And so to keep them vital to keep them energized, and to allow them to grow, focusing on that development, providing resources for that is probably more important than ever at a small college.

Keith Edwards
I think one of the fun things about editing a book is that you begin at an end because you have something to say, and you have some expertise and knowledge and someone deemed you able to edit and then you get all these contributors and you read and you learn so much along the way, I’d like to invite each of you to share, what is a learning for you that you gained through this experience through through your own writing and reading what the contributors offered? Krista, what did you learn?

Christa J. Porter
First of all, let me give a shout out to these amazing people. Right, Tom and Carolyn, it was such a pleasure to work alongside them and to think with them to tackle issues with them right to go through chapters with them. One thing that I learned in the process because I too similar to what Carolyn shared, have been educated at large Publics, and have worked at large Publics. And so for me the ability to engage so many institutions, right, so the diversity of institutions that are considered small colleges, 5000 or less students. And so to work with some of these authors who are coming from all different pathways into small colleges and universities, various titles, most of the authors were at the senior level. But that is one thing that I particularly learned is the diversity among institutions, private public, small, right? Liberal Arts HBCU minority serving, right. And so I walk away with that.

Keith Edwards
Awesome. How about you, Tom, what did you learn through this?

Tom Shandley
Well, I kind of want to echo something Christa just said, and that is that. It really was, I think, humbling and also exhilarating to see so much talent out there, you know, a talented people writing these chapters, with multiple experiences. Some were distinctive, certainly distinctive by type of institution, by by resources, by culture, but there are also many similarities, similarities between people that find passion in the work that they do at the small college, whether public or private. So I think that was one of the things that was like, Krista, I learned a lot. You know, I learned a lot from other women they contributed. I think the other thing that there were differences and the differences that that I think are critical, as we face the future and as people try to cope with what’s going on now, is there’s a pretty good gap between the resourced institutions that might be considered more elite and the capacity to hire staff and to hire new staff and to develop programs. and those that, frankly are struggling to make, make ends meet, to get home and to get to get a student population that is necessary to stay productive. And so that’s apparent. And so some of the some of the things that we’ve through this would be different based on those cultural and resource differences.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, I appreciate you bringing that up. And I think one of the things that I’ve observed in my work working with many different institutions, this goes beyond small colleges, is the pre COVID institutions that were thriving, are doing great. They’re thriving even more. And the pre COVID institutions that were struggling, are struggling more than ever, and I think Evany is the money Gallagher said, you know, the prediction on COVID is the rich will get richer, the poor will get poor. And I think about all the time as I see that, is that something that you’re noticing to the most selective institutions are having banner years and applications and students living on campus and resources and and the ones that were struggling are struggling more than ever?

Carolyn H. Livingston
Yeah, there’s a there’s a there’s a piece, Keith, in a chapter that I wrote with Steve Hoskins, or who’s the president emeritus, here at Carleton, where we talked about that, that the search for distinction. And, and, and and particularly, what is it about the small college that makes it unique? Where’s the niche? Right? Because, as you indicated, you know, there are some institutions that did very well, during the COVID, or we’re able to continue, sort of that continue, continue thriving. But there were a couple of institutions that were really struggling prior to COVID. And some have shut down. There’s an institution, or two that we mentioned, say, you know, they survived the Civil War, but couldn’t survive COVID When they’re when they’re when when the numbers went down, significantly, but I think that’s what we learned, as well, from the authors. And in the contributors, right, we learned that people do the best that they can, at the small college to keep it going. Right. And that’s either from a financial standpoint, that’s either from a resource sort of reduction, maximizing staff, being extremely resource resourceful for how we, how we care for students and our provide for some, provide for students, pretty much in in ways that extraordinary and at small colleges. And so So I think that’s a part of what I learned from the authors and the contributors in mind you it was 3334 of them, right? Who all had individual, or different backgrounds, some we knew a lot about others, we were pleasantly we were pleasantly surprised. I think the other piece keys that I’ve mentioned, that I that I learned is that senior student affairs officers have various pieces of the puzzle. And they showed that like, you know, we had someone who we thought in mind, you know, could write about freedom of expression, right? And then I was like, No, put me, you know, on another another section. And so the things that the folks who work at small colleges and universities need to know, and actually know, just make them all the more special for working at these respective institutions.

Keith Edwards
Right. I wonder if you could talk to me about community building. And this is something that’s standing out to me from what you’re just talking about, but also what you said earlier about when colleges are struggling, not only do we need to, you know, maximize staff time and in manage the budgets, but there’s also a desire to build community to bring in the class and build community to foster retention and build community, keep the alumni engaged and donating and how is community building a critical part of this at the small colleges, as you’ve all pointed to, there’s the relationships and the connection and being known. How is that playing a role in in sort of institution viability.

Christa J. Porter
One of our in the chapters that, I think is chapter seven, chapter six, where it’s talking about managing COVID. The author’s talked with several VP, VP SAs around the country at small colleges. And that was one thing that really, they highlighted was the ability to build community across levels. So to assist the students to support the students to work with each other, to really pull folks in at all levels, because the task was was great. Right? And so how are folks building community? How are folks communicating with each other? How are folks getting buy in about decisions that had to be made on? Right there? That’s what that’s what made me think of that, as you ask that question, specifically, that chapter around COVID.

Tom Shandley
I just What strikes me and thinking about the question you just pose, Keith is, is leadership’s more important than ever. on these campuses. It’s, it’s, it’s the president, the vice presidents, it’s the deans, it’s people, really, really focusing on particularly post COVID. The importance of developing community of people coming together, shared planning, shared celebrations, acknowledging the hard work that people are doing, I think it’s probably more critical now than ever.

Carolyn H. Livingston
I think it’s, it’s more critical, and I think that there is also a higher set of expectations for community building. Right? I mean, I think now, the, when we talk about higher education, and really, when we talk about the world, now, we’re talking pre COVID, and post COVID, right, and whatever this post COVID world that we’re in,

Keith Edwards
is living with COVID.

Carolyn H. Livingston
Exactly dealing with COVID. I think the expectations are even higher, because I think that there is a period that folks missed out on or folks were, or period where people weren’t actually able to capitalize on the community. So, so the echo time, I think there’s even more of an expectation that we build community and, and, you know, particularly at a small college, there’s always an opportunity to, to build community. But in many ways we have to be even more intentional about that either from a how do we put faculty, staff and students in space with each other? How do we provide the events and the programs and the services that do that as well, some targeted outreach to particular populations that might feel disengaged? from a community perspective? I think we have to be aware of all of that, even more so now than we did before and community building, you know, Keith, is core of what we do at the small college, right?

Keith Edwards
You see a greater need for that, I guess, my assumption is because of COVID, because of isolating and social distancing, and masking and missing out in school that the the need and desire for community is greater than ever, and the skill and capacity to make connections to build friendships to build relationships, is lower than ever, and then that that might lead to rather than the students doing that. They want Student Affairs. We want community we’re having a hard time, will you please do that? For us? We’d like to maybe think about with us, do you see that dynamic?

Carolyn H. Livingston
Absolutely. I mean, I think you’re you were in a meeting yesterday with us yesterday, here at Carleton talking Exactly. About that. And we can we can attribute the challenge that our students are having with communication and dialogue to a lot of things, right. The increased use of technology, the whole zoom environment, whatever the case may be, but, but I think again, it’s even it’s even more challenging to be able to do so. And we really have to balance those tensions, as you indicated, between the students who want us to let to do less, but really, they want us to do more. They want us to help them find a friend or find friends, their parents want. When they call us at the small college they say hey, you know, my son Keith is having challenges right now in in connecting them with, you know, their roommate, and meeting immediate friends. Can you help them without you telling them that I’ve called to do so. And those are the types of community building events that we have to community building things that we have to continue to do at a small college and I know Tom, you know, did a tremendous job of of that at Davidson for such a long time.

Keith Edwards
Well, I see and I wonder Tom if you’d experienced this where you so many students know you. And when you are putting in boundaries, they want you to leave us alone, what are you doing? Let us be let us be let us be, you have no, right, right. And then when they need you, why aren’t you here? Why don’t you stop them? How do you prevent this from happening? Did you experience that kind of tension?

Tom Shandley
Yeah, I mean, I think that I hit something on the head, I think it’s knowing when when to step away, it’s a critical kind of balance, that we all have to navigate all the time. And, you know, I’ll give you an example of a student government. And I made it just early on. But both of the institutions I was at that, I would get that I would spend my time getting to know the student government leaders and being a part of their meetings in there tonight, even if they hadn’t had that, from the Dean before critically important relationship, it probably helped us get a lot of things accomplished around policy development, student engagement, because of some trust that you could develop. On the other hand, leadership changes every year. Sometimes they want that and sometimes that’s the last thing they want. You have to be able to ebb and flow with that and realize that the generations of students also have different needs as they come in, and different feelings about administrators and older adults and and so if you can’t, if you can’t be flexible, you probably can’t survive.

Keith Edwards
Well, I’d love to get you’ve spent all this time writing, editing, putting this book out talking about it with others. I’d like to get your expert prognostications. What do you see ahead for the future of Student Affairs at small colleges? What do you what do you see in that crystal ball? Tom, let’s start with you.

Tom Shandley
I’m gonna say a couple of things. But I want I want to focus here on the boots on the ground right now, this is some of their, their their wonder. You know, I’ll go back to something that I think is going to have a monumental impact on student affairs. And that’s, that’s the differential enrollments patterns, because that drives resources that drives revenue, that drives hard choices, at small calm about how to spend their money. And while that constant tension will always lean towards academic affairs, as it should. The Student Affairs also plays a terribly vital role in both the attracting of students and the retaining of students and the development of a campus life. So that tension, I think, is going to get exasperated in the future. And that’s, that’s I hate to start with a negative. But it would be it then critically important that we go back some themes we’ve talked about before the importance of relationships and the importance of trust and building community with not just students, but faculty. So they can appreciate the value of what we do every day. That’s that’s one, I think, you know, one of the great challenges for Student Affairs work for all students, whether large or small is fewer numbers of students going to graduate school into graduate prep programs. So it changed the dynamic of what we’re able to do in terms of recruitment. And typically, the larger institutions can grab a lot of those people because they have more money to spend, or they or they become more attractive, or for whatever reason, and I think it may well change the model of how we approached individual work. We’ve had the luxury for quite some time. hiring professionals from master’s degree programs or PhD programs, and bringing them right onto our campuses and various roles. I’m not sure we’re going to be able to do that fully in the future. And we may have to look at either other kinds of graduate programs or even heaven forbid, consider that maybe a bachelor’s degree and some relevant student leadership experience as to it might have to be acceptable. So I think unless things change, and there’s nothing that in case it’s going to anytime in the near future, those going to be some great, great challenges for I think Student Affairs work.

Keith Edwards
Yep. Thanks for that Christa. What do you see?

Christa J. Porter
Yeah, I definitely jumping right from where Tom left off is sitting in right as Associate Dean of Graduate College we definitely see those numbers decreasing right up our graduate students and those who are able to go into the These type of professions and sort of frontline, you know, entry level positions, I think the past few years, has taught us a lot, right. And whether folks engage those lessons, I think is going to be really crucial. So whether it’s COVID, whether it’s racial unrest, whether it’s right reproductive rights, all of these sorts of things that have come into the public, right, not saying that they haven’t been happening for a long time. But it’s going to test right, I think how we have yet to see the effects, the long term effects of some of these culture wars, if you will, right, legislative policies, all of these things. But I think it’s going to affect how our students come in wanting value, knowing their value, you know, meeting mental health assistance, all of these types of things. I think it’s going to affect, particularly at the small college and institutional level.

Keith Edwards
I think that the mental health is a real particular challenge. And this goes back to a point that Carolyn made is that I hear from all of the campuses, the mental health issues have not grown, they have grown exponentially. And I think it’s a unique challenge when you are a small college, particularly in a small town, where you don’t have the wraparound resources of mental health facilities, county cases. Nonprofits, agencies, services, and the campus become sort of the the one stop shop for all of that, it seems like that’s going to put an increasing demand, particularly on folks who don’t have a large municipality and all the things that come with that, in addition to the campus resources.

Carolyn H. Livingston
I think you’re I think you’re absolutely right. I mean, they’re, you know, there’s a really interesting article in the in the Inside Higher Ed, that talks about mental health and the expectable, versus the unmanageable discomfort that just came out today. And really, what is it that we are sharing with our students with our really talented young people about? Is it? Is it anxiety? Or is it discomfort? And in in what role and I think what we’ll have to reconcile with here in our respective campuses is how can we help? How can we truly indeed help on on a on an issue that’s global? And everyone’s sort of struggling with? Is there anything unique that we can do on our on our respective campuses? I mean, so much. So, Keith, that we just launched a mental health a student mental health taskforce here on campus to tackle that issue, or last one was five years ago. But we are we’re back at it, we’re back at it again. And so that sort of leads me to, to think about when we, you know, when we talk about sort of the future of Student Affairs, at small colleges, the prioritization of our work is going to be even more important now than ever, you know, Tom sort of talks about it in the sense of the future of our profession. And how do we bring along people who have a deep interest in, in our work from their own sort of student experiences? How do we bring them into the fold? I think it’s, I think it’s a really challenging thing that we have to talk about. As a as a profession, I think our work, frankly, is going to be a whole lot more of the same. And a whole lot more of the same in the sense of, we will continue to have high expectations, we will continue to have students who want us to engage them even more than then than ever before. So height, high touch, high impact, solve the world’s problems. And, you know, the other piece that I said to some colleagues a couple of weeks ago, I said that students come to our respective small college campuses expecting perfection. And when they don’t get it, they’re disappointed. Right? And they expect perfection. And they expect us to deliver that to them because the world is imperfect. So I think there’s even more pressure on our small colleges to be able to do that. And so the future of Student Affairs, particularly at the, at various levels, is What do we do about that? What do we do about that and maintain the trust and maintain an adequate workforce? All of those other things? I think it’s just gonna get harder.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, it literally strikes me that you’re saying, you know, students want more, expect more, need more. And then our previous conversation was, you know, enrollment dropping and financial challenges and staff challenges, we can’t find the people. So this sort of more with less continues to be the direction that I think many of us are being pulled apart at. student needs student expectations, and then also compliance and other things, our work is more complex than it ever has been. And as Crystal pointed to so many things beyond the college campus coming in through the college campus, whether it’s the news, or technology and social media and racial injustice, all of that kind of coming in. What else would folks like to add here about what you see into the future?

Tom Shandley
But one thing we didn’t bring up that, you know, and I really almost want to pose this as a question to Carolyn and Krista. But wait, there’s also. And my sense is, at least the young staff, particularly millennials, and their work ethic, and their desire to have a balance in life and leave at five o’clock and, and move on and do that which is understandable. Versus didn’t grow up with that kind of ethnic group that is experiencing Student Affairs, or Oh, my goodness, you might get there at eight and go home at eight or or later and the job was done. That’s, that’s gotta be attention. I think. love to have you on talk about that.

Christa J. Porter
I think it goes back to and definitely what Carolyn end on this one, but on the for this question, but I think it goes back to value. Right. So how are folks feeling valued? Are they feeling as they’re heard, not just listened to? Right? I’m not saying that some of the expectations are different, right. intergenerationally. But that’s been my experience. It’s about value and being heard being respected and all of who that person is.

Keith Edwards
cared for as not just an employee, but as a person.

Carolyn H. Livingston
Yeah. And I think that that particularly resonates at the small college, right. I mean, we when we talk about sort of high touch, high impact, that’s about showing the fact that we value everyone, on our on our respective campuses, right, we value the faculty, we value the staff, we value the student. Right. And it’s how do we it’s how do we display that display that type of display that type of value? And, and I think that people feel as if they are more comfortable displaying that type of value at this at a small college than then then in other in other places. You know, Tom, you said something that I think that we should probably expand on a little bit more, you you talked about? You talked about the limitations of folks being promoted at the at the small college, some of that, and I think that’s, you know, something that we should expand on because we are we should be destination places to work, right. But we know that we have multiple roles, everybody has multiple roles, and the structure is pretty flat at the small college. So are we destination? Or are we? What type of place? Are we with limited promotion promotion opportunities?

Keith Edwards
Well, I think just as I was mentioning, with students, small colleges are a great place for some and not a great place for some and how do we be distinct? But how do we do that with staff? If this is what you’re looking for? This is a great environment to be in. And so not trying to draw all student affairs professionals while college but what are the ways that we can help people find who the value fit the way of working fits that connection fits. So so that they stay and and they’re happy and they’re successful? And they can continue to contribute?

Christa J. Porter
And I think for talking to faculty, right, so this is me speaking to faculty and folks who are engaging with master students and doctoral students, right, how much are we including examples? Right? Shout out to the book, but also case studies and examples of small colleges and universities. What does it look like? What does it feel like? How often are we bringing folks into the classroom? Right? Who are these amazing folks who are senior student affairs officers who are directors, right? Who are. So I think, introducing those folks, right? Who are going to be practitioners to some of these spaces. I have students who are like, I don’t want to go to a large public, right? I want to be at a smaller institution where I can thrive and start my career. And so how much are we exposing our students coming up to those places?

Tom Shandley
And what I was going to appreciate kind of recycling that that question, because I think when I think about the staff, at Davidson, particularly because I was there a long time, that stayed and thrived in that environment, they really believed in the mission of the place, they bought into it, they felt like they were a part of it. And, and that was critically important. So it’d be and you couple that with the importance of community. And if they feel like it’s a community that cares about them that matters. Those two things, I think drive a lot of people sure could go some other place and perhaps make more money or have a greater responsibility, but they may be given up the other things that were important to them and doing so. So I think those are understated kinds of things that people at small colleges,

Keith Edwards
I want, I love the word you use the place and it’s reminding me of a campus that I was recently working with. And And folks, a small, small college and folks talked about I love this place, which is different than I love this college, or I love this campus. I love this place. And what they meant by place was the college, the campus, the town, the geographical, like they meant that whole thing and you just used commitment to place. Does it seem like at small colleges, it’s a it’s about more than the campus. It’s about a commitment to place the surrounding community. And I mean, Northfield is a huge part of the Carleton experience.

Carolyn H. Livingston
Absolutely. It’s about place me particularly, you know, I will say I, you know, my family and I we moved here from Atlanta, Georgia. Right. And you know, it’s a little different. It’s quite different. And, and finding a place was really important for us, right? It was the can I sort of what is going to be my, you know, our family experience on campus? Right? Can my can my, you know, kids have three young kids, can they feel comfortable in walking around campus? Will they be a part of this community? Can they go downtown, which they do to the bike shop and the coffee shop and the well, not the coffee shop, but the ice cream, you know, store.

Keith Edwards
And I was reminded yesterday that downtown Northfield is a little bit different from what folks might imagine by downtown.

Carolyn H. Livingston
Exactly. It’s all walkable. Great. I mean, but but that’s but that’s important. I think when you become a part of a small college community, it’s all of the above. It’s not just the I’m just, you know, going to campus a couple of days to a week to teach or an eight to five, it’s about being engaged in the life in mind of not only the college, but the community, the community as well. And so that’s really important for the seasoned professional. But it’s also important for the for the young professional because they have to buy into the community, above all. Yeah, absolutely. You know, there’s a, you know, key, there’s a there are a couple of chapters in this book that we specifically highlight. It talks about sort of this transition to the small college and you know, Palmer Coughlin, who’s at Colgate talks about what does it mean to be in a small town, walking into the grocery store, and seeing, you know, the people that you supervise just about every day, right? Or, you know, being at events, you know, you’re working out and you see somebody that you see somebody that you supervise, and so that anonymity doesn’t exist this as much as as well. And so you got to bind to those. You have to bind to those things, too.

Keith Edwards
Great. Well, we are running out of time. And this podcast is Student Affairs NOW and we always like to end with what are you thinking about? What are you troubling, what are you pondering now? And so just like to invite each of you in it might be related to our conversation today. It might be something that is really salient for you beyond our conversation, and also folks want to share where were folks can connect with you. Please share with them how they can do that. So So Carolyn, what is what is with you now?

Carolyn H. Livingston
You know, I think what’s With me now is, you know, Keith, we need reminders in this podcast is a perfect reminder that our profession is going to be okay. And Student Affairs is going to be okay. Higher education is going to be okay. You may have the peaks and the valleys. But we all entered this space, wanting to make a difference in the lives of students, and we will continue to do that. And so we all need reminders, and this has been my daily reminder of such I think, you know, Twitter is a perfect way at Carleton DLs. LinkedIn, as well as well, is a way to is a way to reach out and good old fashioned email works, works to so carletoncollege.edu. You can you can certainly find me there.

Keith Edwards
Wonderful, wonderful. Thank you. Christa, what’s with you now?

Christa J. Porter
Yeah, to go off with that, right? Like, we are going to be okay. And I just want to throw in the conversation and recognize that folks are in different states, in different states are experiencing certain types of legislation right now. Right. And so I speaks speak that as well. In the state of Ohio, there are several, one in particular on the table and no matter what happens, no matter what version of the bill passes, we’re going to be okay. And so having community of folks and have community of folks on campuses that are still committed to doing the work, whatever the work is for you. We’re going to be okay. I’m CJP, PhD, social media, Instagram and Twitter and then Krista J. Porter on LinkedIn, and Facebook, of course, email.

Keith Edwards
Awesome. Awesome. Tom, what is with you now?

Tom Shandley
Well, I’m you know, I love the word pondering. So I, you know, this, that I’ve been pondering and thinking about, I felt like pre COVID Things are pretty hot on the college. Things were, there was quite a bit of racial unrest. There was, there were certainly concerns about sexual assault, about LGBTQ rights and other go down the list, COPPA suppressed all of that. And campuses. And as campuses now reemerge. I also wonder if we got this low of okay, we put that aside, but as the issues are still there, we’ve got to get back to it on one, and then you’ve got this increasingly conservative state legislatures on the other trying to diminish the rights of many that we care about whether those be students of color, whether they’d be reproductive rights, whether it be sexual assault issues, whether they be LGBTQ rights, transgender rights, so we Fletcher’s if you think about small colleges, many of them which are private and when we’re insulated from that, but those trustees to and an impact some of the things that we thought were safe. So yes, Student Affairs is going to be fine. And we’ve got the test. And we’ve got the energy, and we’ve got the education to be on the frontlines. But I think that kind of pushback is something that we haven’t experienced. And so yeah, I’m concerned about that.

Keith Edwards
Yeah. All right. Well, thanks to all three of you, when we, before we even launched this podcast, one of the things that we talked about is wanting to be restorative to the profession. And I think that’s where we ended with some real, difficult challenges facing our students facing our institutions facing our leadership facing our society. And how do we find the conversations like this to be restorative so that we have renewed energy to go out, take on these very real challenges, and navigate them as effective as we can for ourselves, and also for those that we serve our students and ultimately, the society that we’re a part of. So thank you all for being with us. And for the conversation. Thank you for the book, which is available now through NASA publication so you can find it there and many other places. And I really appreciate you being with us here today. This has been terrific. Thanks also to our sponsor. Thanks, keep. Thanks. See ya. Thanks also to our sponsor, today’s episode Symplicity. Symplicity is the global leader in student services technology platforms was state of the art technology that empowers institutions to make data driven decisions specific to their goals. A true partner to the institutions simplicity supports all aspects of student life including but not limited to Career Services and Development, Student Conduct and wellbeing, student success and accessibility services. To learn more, visit symplicity.com. Or connect with them on Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn. A huge shout out to our producer Nat Ambrosey who does all the behind the scenes work to make us look and sound good. And we love the support for these important conversations from our community. You can help us reach even more folks by subscribing to the podcast on YouTube, on Apple wherever you get your podcast and on our weekly newsletter announcing each new episode each week. During you can also leave us a five star review. It really helps expand the reach of these conversations. I’m Keith Edwards. Thanks again to our fabulous guests today and to everyone who’s watching and listening. Thanks. Make it a great week. Thank you all.

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