rita zhang
Unexpectedly, what I got from this shared space together is what does it mean to be fully human? And all of us, like in all aspects of what gives us joy?

Keith Edwards
Hello, and welcome to Student Affairs NOW, I’m your host, Keith Edwards. So many student affairs professionals are considering leaving the field for so many reasons. Today, I’m joined by three folks who moved away from traditional student affairs roles years ago, I think these folks will be able to share some wisdom and insight about their experience that might help those of you considering leaving the field think more deeply, and hopefully make a better decision for you. Whatever that is. Thank you for joining me today. I’m so excited to learn from all of you. Student Affairs NOW is the premier podcast and online learning community for 1000s of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education, and student affairs. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays find details about this episode or browser archives. It’s student affairs now.com. Today’s episode is sponsored by Simplicity. A true partner Simplicity supports all aspects of student life with technology platforms that empower institutions to make data driven decisions. This episode is also sponsored by Vector Solutions formerly ever find the trusted partner for more than 2000 colleges and universities. Vector Solutions. This is the standard of care for student safety, well being an inclusion. As I mentioned, I’m your host, Keith Edwards, my pronouns are he him his. I’m a speaker, consultant, and Coach, you can find out more about me at Keithedwards.com. I’m broadcasting from Minneapolis, Minnesota at the intersections of the ancestral homelands of both the Dakota in the Ojibwe peoples. Let’s get to the conversation. I’m so excited to have all three of you joining us today. Tell us a little bit about you, and you’re leaving the traditional student affairs journey. And John, we’re going to start with you.

John L. Garland
Alright, great. My name is John Garland, I use he him pronouns, and I left student affairs or higher ed, just over five years ago, I’m the Director of Research and student success for the Cobell scholarship. The Cobell scholarship is a Native American scholarship. I’m a member of the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma. And we fund native scholars across the US who are members of one of the federally recognized tribes. So there are over 500 of those, we have scholars across over 450 campuses in the country, and we fund over $6 million a year in scholarships. And so my role is really more higher ed adjacent. in lots of ways, I get to keep all the great parts, from student affairs and faculty roles. So I get to do the research I want to do, I get to do the student interaction parts I want to do. And I really get to sort of be in everything that’s important to me, at this point in my career. So that’s sort of a broad overview. I would also mention that five years goes by really quickly, a lot of my anxieties that I had, when I left Student Affairs really didn’t come true. I’m still connected in the ways I want to be connected, I still do the things I want to do professionally. And so if there’s one thing I could say right off the top, is that some of the anxieties, I think, are normal. But the connected pieces, the professional pieces, for me, anyway, remain solid through my transition.

Keith Edwards
That’s great. I relate to so much of that. And before you left, you were in a faculty role, right? So if you could, maybe you can say just a little bit about that, because I think we’re often talking about practitioners leaving, but you’re here, you’re here to represent sort of a faculty move.

John L. Garland
Sure, well, many of us are partnered. And so we also have to navigate dual household careers. And my husband is an academic administrator. And so when he goes somewhere, then I also have to figure out what I’m going to do in this case, and, and so I took a faculty position when he took a dean position, and loved every minute of that. And then when he took an administrative position back in DC, then that was my point at which I was like, What am I going to do, and that’s when the Cobell opportunity presented itself. And therein lies the opportunity, I think, to really reconsider one’s career and the pathways that we think are typical, sometimes aren’t maybe the best pathway for us. And so taking a chance at moments like that can be really beneficial.

Keith Edwards
Awesome, awesome. Well, thank you for being here, John. And rita, tell us a little bit about you and your journey.

rita zhang
Hi, everyone. I’m rita zang, are you she her pronouns calling from the indigenous territories of the Aloni people also called Oakland California. I am currently I’m many things but currently I’m calling in as the founder of community roots financials. I hold and facilitate space for communities of color on our financial empowerment needs. That looks like a sprinkling of consulting, facilitating workshops and also financial coaching. But it’s also a lot of creative projects that can come out because I am a solopreneur, I run my own business. And that’s probably one of my favorite things. Right now about leaving Student Affairs is the freedom that I have to be creative. And to craft my life I have left just under five years will be five years in January. So time does go by fast. And when I was working in student affairs, or in traditional higher ed roles, I ran cultural centers and affinity based programs, and really work with student activists on all the social justice issues that that come up in students learning journey. So in many ways, what I do now still feel so familiar to what I’ve always been doing. But it took me a little bit to find that because to be real, I left student affairs because I was really burnt out. And I actually just didn’t work for eight months to really move through that burnout. And I didn’t know if I would keep going in terms of working in the way that I’ve always worked in social justice work. But I found my way back. And happy to be here now today with you all.

Keith Edwards
Wonderful, wonderful. And Eric, tell us a little bit about your journey.

Eric Mata
Yeah, so I am Eric Mata, I am calling in or speaking in from Milwaukee, Wisconsin, also very indigenous area of the United States. And I am currently a recruiter at a company called Korn Ferry. So they do recruitment process outsourcing for other so essentially, we do recruiting for other companies. And maybe we can talk more a little bit about that later. But prior to coming into the field of talent acquisition, I worked at as an assistant director and Multicultural Affairs for a school in Chicago. And actually, in a lot of ways, none of that now that I’ve spent some time thinking about this, I stumbled out of higher education, student affairs, it wasn’t necessarily a transition that I wanted to make that I was necessarily ready to make. You know, really, you talked a little bit about, you know, being at a point where you needed to be out of the space, that that wasn’t necessarily my experience, I had actually, we had decided to move to Milwaukee from Chicago, me and my family, you know, talked about being partnered and dual careers. And my partner had accepted a job here in Milwaukee. And we made the decision to move, I was able to convince my employer at the time to let me work remote one day a week and make the almost two hour travel into into Chicago for the other four days of the week, and eventually got to the point where that was too much. You know, I had applied for some diversity jobs here in Milwaukee, but there are only three or four major universities here in the city. So the field of diversity, education in multicultural affairs is really small. And you know, I got denied for director position, and use that as an opportunity to rely on my network of folks that, you know, essentially put it out on Facebook that move into Milwaukee, and if anybody knows of anything to let me know, and a friend of mine reached out to me, somebody I had met at one of the social justice conferences, I believe through ACPA, I think it was in Kansas City, or something like that. And, you know, she had left a field and was working in, you know, this, this talent, acquisition space. And I use that network to apply for a job. And it was it was something when I first did it, it was something to do. But I was able to navigate my way into university relations work, which was a really good connection to the work that I had finished doing when I left Chicago. I was really focusing on career readiness for historically underserved historically under prepared folks coming out of college going into the career space. And I was able to kind of utilize that as a way to find my passion within this particular space. So yeah, so that’s a little bit about kind of mine how long

Keith Edwards
I think you’re the CEO here. How long did you

Eric Mata
I just saw on my Facebook Look memories yesterday that it was eight years that I started that that new position, I took a couple of weeks in between starting. For the first time ever, I had taken a couple of weeks off between jobs. But we had about eight years, I believe it was.

Keith Edwards
Well, I left my traditional student affairs role at Macalester College, seven years ago, and I just when I see those Facebook memories, I’m like, There’s no way. Like there’s no way it was seven years ago, it feels like just a flash. And I think it’s part of that is, as rita pointed out, like, what I do is so eclectic and exciting and moving and changing. I often tell people, you know, that first year, you’re in that new job, and you don’t know what you’re doing. That’s how I feel seven years later, because it is not the same job. And, and I love that, right? I love the energy of the learning and growth and some of that, so, so I’m going to host and I’m also going to be a little bit of a guest here. I’ll try and stay out of the way. Well, Eric, we’re going to come back to you. But here’s a long preamble to the question. And our guests have had this question and they’re ready for it. So there’s lots of talk about people leaving Student Affairs. And as Raechelle Pope talks about with us, our co host. This has always been the case, Student Affairs has always been losing people. And this seems different. Also, people leaving Student Affairs is not always a bad thing. Some should have never been in student affairs in the first place and got talked into it by a trusted mentor who needed to fill a grad program or you know, who knows what. And maybe we’re onto something that has always been a better fit. Others have evolved and grown and are ready for new challenges and new roles and new situations. And others really are a great fit for Student Affairs. And we’re losing people who really should remain in the field for them. And for the students they serve. I expect our audience to listen to this to include folks who are thinking about leaving, leaving, or folks who are concerned about all the people leaving and want to better supervise and lead organizations. So that we’re keeping folks, especially keeping the folks who really want to stay and can really benefit. So I’ve asked our folks today to look back at their experience. And what are the three key lessons you’ve learned in your transition. And since that you would highlight for others, as we mentioned, we’ve got folks who’ve not only done it, but they’ve done it and had quite a bit of time to think about it and reflect and that’s really the perspective. So, Eric, what are what are some three key lessons that you’ve learned in your transition that might benefit others?

Eric Mata
Yeah, that’s a that’s a really great question. I spent some time thinking about this, I think the the first thing that that came to mind is, at some point in our careers, within student affairs, we get to a point where we have to, we get to, I don’t want to call it a breaking point. But we get to this place where we are making choices about who we are as people outside of work. And sometimes at some point in our careers, those choices that we make, come up against the choices that we have to make at work or the choices that we’re forced to make at work. And for me that revolved around family, right, and the decision, the choices that my partner and I made to start a family. You know, so when we, when we had our first kid in Chicago, it made it a little bit more difficult to say yes to staying late at work and doing after five events, you know, after 5pm events, not just for that are work related events with students and whatnot, but with colleagues that want to go out after work and do all of those things. When our daughter, our oldest, B, got to be close to school age, we did some talking to folks around the city of Chicago about the school systems, and made the decision that we wanted. Our kids have a great education, but didn’t want to deal with some of the challenges in navigating a really large public school system. Because we wanted our kids to be in public schools. We didn’t want to go the private school route. So those types of choices. If if we don’t pay attention, at least for me, if I didn’t pay attention to how those choices I was making, were going against some of the things that were happening at work, it would have made it much more challenging situation for me, for me, the priority at that point became, you know, focused inwardly internally towards myself and my family, as opposed to externally in the bid people that, that were around me the work that I was doing, still valued all of those things, but at some point, you know, it became important to really decide on, you know, what do I want to focus from here on now, because I have other people that are relying on me. You joked, earlier, Keith, before we started about, you know, some of those financial decisions that you have to make, and, and, you know, so those, all of those things come into play, and you need to make that decision of where do i Where do I go? What do I do now? Can I continue on this road? Well, also can considering the navigating, you know, the, when you’re in such a small and specialized area within student affairs, like Multicultural Student Success, or Diversity Affairs, you know, it’s kind of like being being an athlete, right? To use that as an analogy. When you, when you become a pro, there’s only so many spots available, right. And at some point, you’re either going to be left out of the talent pool, for whatever reason, you know, the the hierarchy that exists within higher education of, if you don’t have a PhD or a doctorate, there’s only so far you can go and more people are getting PhDs and doctorates. So that makes those kind of upper echelon positions even more challenging, you know, and for me, I was at a point where the PhD isn’t for me, it’s, it’s never going to be for me. So anything beyond a director position is probably never going to happen. And a doctorate director position may not be in the books for me either, right? So so all of those things really kind of came into play. And really, for me, it was about taking the time to think through all of those things, and find a way to become an advocate for myself, right. Like as Student Affairs practitioners, a lot of times we’re taught or told that we need to be advocates for our students, but rarely along the way are we told that we need to be advocates for ourself, right. And I think that that was an important lesson for me. And something that I’ve carried into my work in this area, you know, being able to advocate for myself and say, you know, look, I’m, I really liked what I’m doing here. I think I’m ready for something else. Can Can I do more? Right. And, you know, I think that that was an important lesson for me.

Eric Mata
And I think I shared a couple. And I think the last thing, the last lesson was, for me, at least was was that I didn’t necessarily, we don’t have to necessarily look for things outside of student affairs that are adjacent to Student Affairs. I think oftentimes, you see folks that leaves in affairs and go into consulting, like you Keith, then a lot of folks that I knew, from when I first started out in the field that went out and against the PhDs, they’re all doing consulting work. No, that doesn’t always have to be the case, you know, doing doing financial literacy. And that’s a very small way of talking about the work that you’re doing, Rita, but that isn’t necessarily Student Affairs adjacent. Right. So I think it’s important to, to kind of think about that. You know, as as folks, if folks are thinking of leaving the field, that’s something to really, really think about. Yeah, so I guess I’ll stop there and ask some other thoughts. But I want to kind of go to other people see what other folks say and maybe bounce off of those.

Keith Edwards
Beautiful, beautiful, thank you, Eric. rita, what are what are three key Oh, before we get to read, I just want to say, I was hearing, Eric, you say a lot about sort of thinking about your life, not as an employee, but as a person. And I think that’s, that’s something that I would offer, those who are supervising student affairs professionals worried about people leaving is people do not want to be treated like employees. They want to be treated like people who have families and kids and interests and all of these things. And so I think that was really great to hear you talk about that for yourself. And I think also in thinking about others, but now rita, rita, what are what are three key lessons that you would offer that you’ve learned in your journey so far?

rita zhang
Yeah, well, first, I want to just say, Eric, what you were sharing was feeling so resonant for me, especially when you started with WHO ARE WE outside of work like that hit me. Oh, my God. And I think that’s so so true. And I think it’s particularly resonant because I think my departure from from student affairs was so it felt like so hard. Like, I didn’t stumble out of it. Like you i I felt like I had no nothing else left. And I have the perspective now looking in retrospect, my whole exit was a total accumulation of so many things happening for me at that time. But at the core of and that’s why I do my work now at community, which is my own unlearning of capitalism, even within me, and that I don’t dream to labor. And it’s kind of like hard to like, peace out. I think for me five years ago, because I work in social justice spaces. I work in spaces that were all about anti racism, anti oppression. And we had such sharp analysis of all those things. But when it came to the work, that dichotomy of all the things we were saying brought me back, honestly, oh, yeah, all those late night things that we had to go to. And I would choose that because I wanted to be there with students and for students, or constant onslaught of just crises like campus crises, and just needing to stay up like racking my brain every night being like, Okay, how do I respond? How do I like push administrators to respond in an ethical way in a values aligned way? How can I hold the healing circles for students and throughout all that, it was always external, like, the people I served. But really, it was, what was also happening was my own unlearning of my relationship to working and productivity and also value that my self worth is not just tied to how I was performing in the job. But it’s hard to see that because I didn’t see my work and student affairs as a job. I saw it as my, my passion and my life’s work. Yeah, and my identity, right. Um, and so I think the lesson that I really found is after I left it’s kind of one that that those things I care. So before I did community, I started community roots. I was burnt out so I didn’t work for like seven months. And then I did a stint in an IT company a for profit IT company, which I was recruited to from other burnt out x higher end people. That’s how I got it. I knew nothing about it. So I thought was really funny that they hired me because I was like, I don’t know anything anyways. But what was I? How did I get here? So I think at the IT company, I started because I literally did not care about it. And computers, it was like a lesson for me of hey, things I care about, don’t have to just be in what I work for. And through that re energizing process, because my work didn’t deplete me so much, I was able to go back to the community spaces in the bay that I’ve always organized with and have been partners with and in community with and I found that, hey, these things are still important to me. And there’s different ways that I can, can make that happen. And then ultimately, the other lesson I got to was, I actually do want to be doing this work still, as work work like capital W work. But there are different ways that I can can make it happen in a way that is more harmonious and balanced so that I can. So my like personal goal in my business is I never want to work more than 30 hours a week. And I’m very selective about who I partner with. And I only partner with people that I feel like reciprocate to me in in a way that gives me energy in life, that they share my values, but they also pay me in a way that feels good. And I’ve never actually it’s so funny. I’ve never actually had a difficult conversation in regards to payment. Because that energy of attraction people that want to work with me also want to like pay me in a way that feels good to them. And so all these things have been really magical to find in new configurations in new ways, but in ways that have always been me.

rita zhang
And the last lesson I’ll throw in because we are talking about people that a lot have left. My last lesson is still I still love education. I miss students, I missed the learning environment. And to me it’s not finite either. I don’t think of myself as I’ve left and I’m forever gone. Like that door is still open for me. But it’s more about what are the right conditions that also serve me and my humanity and the way that I want to exist In this world that feels, feels well, like my well being is important.

Keith Edwards
Yeah. I love you talking about unlearning, which I think I used to think I needed to learn more things to be smart. And now, particularly having very young children taught me that they’re wise not because of what they know, they’re wise because of what they don’t know. And our baggage and our trauma and or oppressive socialization, and all of that unlearning. So relate to that. And I love you bringing in the identity and the connection with that I certainly experienced that this is who I am, rather than a thing that I do or thing that I’m committed to. And it’s also reminding me even for people who aren’t looking to leave, that’s maybe you can think about decoupling your identity from your work so you can be better in your words. Right. Steve Hernan has talked on two of these podcasts, one on trauma, stewardship, and one on rethinking Residence Life, about when our identity our in our job becomes our identity, all the conflict, I can’t think of clean words to say it’s the conflict, the drama, The obfuscation that we do to others, and then we do it ourselves in that way in decoupling that identity can give us that healthy non attachment. Three things go ahead.

Eric Mata
Right before I was leaving, there was a big push, I don’t know if it was just where I was working, but maybe across higher education, student affairs, around moving away from work life balance towards work life integration. And that was probably is an I don’t know if folks want to email me about this after they. But that is the biggest lies, that managers directed hiring managers, people managers can push on their staff within, within really any field, but especially within higher education, right? That integration is what gets people in trouble, right? It’s what makes people work, want to work or feel like they have to work 80 hours a week that they can leave, they’re there, they can’t leave work at the office, they have to bring it home with them, you know, so I don’t know that I hope I don’t get in trouble. Keep saying

Keith Edwards
no, get us in trouble. You’re you’re free, man. Go for it. I remember you’re telling us I remember proudly beating my infant daughter, as I did emails on my phone and thinking proud of look how productive I am. Look how dedicated I am. It’s 740. Tonight, I’m knocking out these emails. And now I look and I’m just disgusted with my and no boss told me to do that. No one said you had to do that. That was certain cultures that sort of supported that. And I did it to myself. John, I want to I want to turn to you, because I think we often leave faculty out of this. And I have two conversations with faculty this week about leaving both fully tenured. They’re not in student affairs, but they’re in other faculty roles. They’re just thinking I want something a little bit different. And so what are some of the lessons you’ve learned in your transition?

John L. Garland
Yeah, I think leaving a faculty tenured position is is really a hard thing to do. Because you’re socialized to not think about doing that. And so. So there are lots of, there are lots of barriers to sort of freeing yourself. I think when you’re a faculty member, especially with tenure, I think the other thing that comes with that when you can extricate yourself from it, you really free yourself to rethink your professional goals. And in my case, when I was a student affairs administrator, or faculty, I was really focused on indigenous college students and the research surrounding their experience in college. And I had spent 15 years in higher ed, going to conferences talking about the need for addressing the invisibility of Native students and their data within higher ed and content going to every every point at which I thought I could make a difference. And so whether it was journal, Ford’s I would go to them and say, let’s talk about the ethical implications of leaving Native students out of datasets that you’re publishing. Let’s talk about these things. What, what can we do? How can we address this? And I found that I was just continually talking till I was blue in the face and nothing was changed. And so for a while, I thought, Well, my message isn’t getting through. So I have to change my message. So I would change my audiences and change my message. And when, when we were moving back to the East Coast, I thought, You know what, this is a really good opportunity to rethink my goal here. And my goal is to really inform and be data inclusive in higher ed with indigenous college student data. And at that same time, there sort of serendipitously there was a scholarship being Born, called the Cobell scholarship. And it really got me thinking about how much data they might have, how much data indigenous scholarship providers might have. And which then prompted some conversations. And I thought, you know why there is real opportunity here to take this data and begin and forming higher education about what they’re missing. And through that work, and if, through the last five years, our scholarship partners with the other three large indigenous College Student Scholarship providers, we have gotten two very large grants in the last five years to begin sharing our data and building infrastructure and in essence, building a research center. And so we’re using that sort of energy, because it wasn’t happening in higher ed. And so I took advantage of what wasn’t happening, to try to fill that gap and think about what my professional goals are in relation to that. So I would say that much more fulfilled now than I was before, I’m more professionally connected, I think, than I felt before, I’m actually more I would say, I’m happier. It’s a strange way to think about it. But I’m actually happier doing this work in this way than I was before. And I don’t know what that says about higher ed, I don’t know what that says about the barriers that are constantly in place in higher ed, keep us from sort of actualizing our professional goals and no spaces, but they’re there. And I think they’re different for all of us. But that’s one of the big lessons, I learned that when you’re free from that you can really rethink your professional goals in ways that matter more, to self. And so I think that’s my big takeaway. The other big takeaway was, I didn’t miss out on any professional opportunities. So right now I’m serving as Associate Editor for new directions for student services, you know, which is sort of a one of those Cornerstone publications and Student Affairs. I mentioned before we came on the air that I’m also on the foundation of the ACPA

John L. Garland
Foundation Board. And so thinking about how I can continue my higher ed service has also been an important component for me. So I want to stay connected to higher ed, but I want to now see it as service to the profession. And so I construct it that way. So those are my service opportunities. But I think the other big lesson for me is, and I came on five years ago and started working remotely right off, right off the bat. Yeah, that was not standard, then. And so I sort of jumped a lot of hurdles and learned a lot of lessons. And then when it happened to lots of other people during the pandemic, I found that, you know, the things I had struggled with before, I hadn’t realized how much I had sort of overcome when you think about working remotely. And so there were lots of lessons I was able to share through that process. But also the I think that opens up opportunities for us, as former student affairs folks to talk about, you know, they’re really new opportunities at work that didn’t exist when we all transitioned away from student affairs, because of work from home opportunities now. And so I think the landscape has shifted. And I think it’s really easier for a lot of folks in student affairs to think about not being in student affairs or doing something adjacent or doing something different, and still be completely fulfilled or fill those gaps that they really needed to think more critically about in their lives that need extra attention.

Keith Edwards
I love that you’re reminding us to center purpose, because that was a huge part of my and I’ll describe what led to my leaving was a personal transformation. And I think all of us feel like we have purpose. But if you don’t, if you can’t say what it is, then you can’t make decisions based on it. And I think we often get caught up with externally imposed purposes, right? The purpose that our family wanted for us the purpose that John and I were at the University of Maryland, that’s the purpose that Susan Columbus wanted for us, right? And the hardest ones to give up are the ones that come that are complements and come from people who we love and admire and we both love and admire Susan, but that was not my purpose. And when

John L. Garland
you give it says you’re so good at this. I know I’m doing it and you’re like yeah, I may be good at it. But that’s not what I want to do.

Keith Edwards
Yeah. So what if you can let go of what the external purposes you’ve taken on and figure out really what is it that you want? What is your purpose? Yours, not the shoulds? Not society’s not your parents, not your mentor? Not what is your purpose? I tell my coaches and clients all the time once you get clear about your purpose. The rest is a strategy and execution That’s right. And it sounds like you got really clear about your purpose rather than focusing on here’s a path I’m on. What’s my purpose? Oh, there’s lots of paths here. So I think that’s really helpful. We’ve got a little bit of time here. So I want to come to each of you to just add on real, what else would you want folks to think about or hear? If they’re thinking about this,

Eric Mata
I think for me, one of the things that that is important, especially for folks who are listening, that are managers that are people managers, there’s an article that just came out Tuesday, last Tuesday, in higher ed jobs that talked about, you know, remote work policies and salaries been a huge contributor to people wanting to leave the field. And, you know, the salary thing has always been an issue. At least in the time that I was in, in higher education. You know, it’s an issue, now, my partner is looking for work, looking for a new job, and, you know, salary is an issue there for her as well. But the remote work, one, I think, is one where people managers have an obligation or a duty to really consider for their employees, that we were able to be two years remote during the pandemic for a lot of folks within within student affairs within student affairs, adjacent areas, recruitment, recruitment, you know, all of those areas, Career Services, they were able to do it, they were able to get it done, they were able to be successful in that work. And now that that, quote, unquote, COVID is over for a lot of folks. They want to bring folks back into the office full time. And there needs to be some flexibility there, you know, my partner is fighting with her boss, so that her employees can get one day remote a week, when, you know, the, she works in admission, so they’re out in the field any way doing remote work, so why not provide that opportunity for them. And it could be an option, I did it for six months, without in my last role within higher education I had worked every friday from home, I was able to do that I was able to navigate that still be productive. And as people managers, they have to really take that into consideration. Because that’s one of the things that they probably have some ability to make a change in, in within the scope of their work. So that’s, I would just say that that’s one thing. And I think the purpose thing is really important as well, to kind of go off of that. And really just add that that purpose for yourself doesn’t have to be within the student affairs space, either. Right? Like you were saying, Keith, you know, a lot of times that purposes, kind of put on us, you know, I think you’d be good at this. I think you’d be good at that. You know, and sometimes, you know, that purpose is is very different. And to be able to have the courage to follow that purpose is really important. And but also very challenging, very difficult that that, that that desire to pursue that purpose outside of the work that you’re currently doing, can be very challenging. For sure.

Keith Edwards
Yeah. I think people often ask me about, you know, I’ve been doing this for seven years on my own say, Oh, is it hard? Is it hard? I tell people all the time, the hardest part was the decision. That’s right, that decision was the scariest that you said courage. And that was the moment I needed. Courage was the choice. I’m going to do this because that was really hard. rita, what else would you add here?

rita zhang
I’m really glad Erica, you brought up salaries. Because I think for my experience, I think focusing too much on purpose was part of why I was in turmoil for a little bit. And I actually coach a lot of folks in nonprofits right now and in higher ed, or justice, focus cut type of work, but it gets so so underpaid. And I think there’s a real pragmatic part and this is going to be different for everyone. Right. But if we have course purpose is important, and what do we need for our security needs? And a lot of times that’s also our financial security needs, and that it’s also not like a either or thinking it’s not I either can do a purposeful job and be underpaid or make a lot of money but sell my soul. And I think that’s a little bit of what I got from what you were sharing, John that. I think for from my perspective of higher ed is just so rigid and so slow to move because of these institutions, right. And there are many ways we can do our work and have our security needs met, if if we can think creatively. And when we talk about liberation, I think it’s always in the theory. But my journey, even into my solopreneur practice has been very much personal of like liberation also means allowing myself to imagine something different, even though I went, I didn’t know we had the Maryland connection, right? I went through the Maryland program, and everyone loves Student Affairs. And speaking of Susan Komen, as I was thinking about her, because she had us read this article on. People leave Student Affairs after seven years, like that’s the attrition rate, right. And as I was prepping for this podcast, I was like, oh, yeah, I totally fell into that statistic. So it’s, it’s both and I think, and the thing I also want to say to maybe folks, it’s not just higher ed, it’s in a lot of our workplaces. This, we internalize so much of the capitalistic need to always maximize always increase our productivity and meet the next milestone, that that then is what creates, I think the dehumanization that makes that integration or that harmony or whatever you want to call it really hard for the actual people working. And I want to suggest this thing, I’ve been reading a lot and doing more work in solidarity economy work, right? Like, what are different ways we can structure economic ways that we are in community, and this notion of degrowth, right? If we keep growing, and we keep always pushing to, like, do the next better thing or half, this year, we got 250 students for this conference next year, we’re gonna get 200, you know, that is unsustainable. It’s unsustainable for ourselves as humans, it’s unsustainable for the planet, it’s unsustainable for I think, our society spiritual needs. And so much of what we’re talking about here is purpose is beyond just what we do in work, we have purpose in our families, with our creative selves with whatever else like we care about. So I really want to suggest that too, for for folks in decision making spaces, like why people are scared to have people work remote, because maybe that will lower productivity, or how do I know you’re really working? You know, like, let’s let’s try to think differently, because where we’re headed is not sustainable, not just in in soon affairs, it’s unsustainable for our world.

Keith Edwards
Well we’re in the deep end, John, where else would you want to take us here? This is fantastic. What else would you want to add here? Before we move to wrapping up?

John L. Garland
Yeah, I would just mentioned that. I agree with everything that’s been said, I think it’s all very salient. The one thing you know, I have been so fortunate, privileged to have sort of the Maryland connection, and, and all of the wonderful wisdom that’s been shared through those networks. But what I would say is, regardless of your network, that it’s important to tend that network, to continue those connections to really reach out to those colleagues who have been meaningful to you and for you, throughout your career in higher ed, because those I have found even over the last five years, have been still central to my professional development. And I’m personally Yes, and yeah, they’ve all become really close friends, lifelong friends, in lots of ways. And so those I think, are the sustaining elements, regardless of where we’re working. Those relationships really have been for me, foundational to, to, again, going back to happiness. I mentioned that word before. But I think that’s, that’s a critical element and connecting your happiness to what makes you happy. And I think those networks, for me anyway, have been incredibly important for that. So I also agree with Rita, when you I was just reading an article, I think last week in The New York Times about about this theory of D growth or growth is not sustainable, and what does that look like? And I think that’s spot on. And I think that’s a conversation that we all need to have across fields and especially in higher ed, because that’s really what drives decisions and that’s really what keeps people making decisions for others to come back in the office and You know, it really underlines underlies, I think a lot of the dysfunction that we see. And that we try to avoid by not working in higher ed so

Keith Edwards
beautiful. Well, as expected, we are running out of time. So we always like to close this podcast is called Student Affairs NOW what are you thinking troubling or pondering now might be related to this conversation might be something else entirely. And also folks who might want to connect with you, please let them know where they can connect with you. So, John, what are you pondering now? And how might folks connect with you?

John L. Garland
I am simply pondering probably what I’m going to have for dinner. And when I worked in higher ed, that wasn’t something I would ponder. So I think that’s a really important realization that I’m more connected to sell at this point. And I really try to focus on what that looks like and and how to be healthy that way. People can connect with me by email, John.garland@cobellscholar.org. I, as I told my colleagues, I’m a Gen X are some more comfortable with email, typically. But feel free to email me at any time, I’m happy to be a resource, be just a listener, or share any advice that you that you might seek? So

Keith Edwards
thanks. Awesome. Thank you. That’s very generous. rita. What are you troubling now? And how might folks connect with you?

rita zhang
Just want to express my gratitude for John, Eric Keith. Unexpectedly, what I got from this shared space together is what does it mean to be fully human? And all of us, like in all aspects of what gives us joy? And make sense now that I’m thinking about it. We’re on a podcast about folks that left Student Affairs so when we are exiting one way in which we have work, what possibilities does that open up, whether it’s more family time or connection to community and purpose in different ways? So thank you for that. Y’all can email me, rita@communityrootsfinancials.com. I am a millennial. But I also like emails.

Keith Edwards
there’s been some good banter about the generations and our preferred communication. And as we’re getting ready for this, Eric Mata, what are you? What are you troubling? Now you’re a trouble or aren’t you?

Eric Mata
I’ve been known to do that, from time to time for sure. And I guess the one thing that I’ve been thinking about kind of and thinking about, I didn’t know anything about the other two, podcast mates, John and rita before coming in to this, but in the introduction, you know, realize that, that we all identify as people of color in, in scientists, to a certain extent, probably very intentional in your, from from Keith, which is something that I’ve always appreciated about you. But it also got me thinking, like, all of these numbers that we see, you know, what, what do those look like for folks that have been historically marginalized in the field? Right. And, and, and, you know, what, what can be done? What, what can we be doing? What can other folks in the field be doing to continue to support the conversation around departure of what that looks like, if that should happen and things like that? So. So that’s kind of what I’ve been been kind of thinking about, throughout the last couple of minutes that we’ve been on a lot of great insight has been kind of put out there. But so I want, you know, just want to echo what what other folks have been saying. But if folks want to get in touch with me, I’m on LinkedIn. I’m more of a lurker on social media than anything else and a sharer. But if folks do want to reach out, you can reach me via email as well. ericmata@gmail.com. I’m old enough to have have Gmail as my primary primary email address, but yeah.

Keith Edwards
Well, wonderful. Thank you. Thank you for closing us out that way. And I think it is it is perhaps an interesting paradox that that marginalized experience is what brings many people into Student Affairs. Right, I finally felt seeing here I finally felt connected I finally saw someone like me, is what brings people in the Student Affairs and it might at the same time, be the experience that is having people leave Student Affairs, looking for something different than that. So that’s an interesting paradox that I’m thinking about for the first time. Thanks to the three of you so much. I knew this was going to be great, but I didn’t know it’d be filled with so much emotion and connection. So thank you to all three of you for bringing that up. It’s been terrific. And sharing your experience and your wisdom has been beautiful. Thanks also to our sponsors of today’s episode Simplicity and Vector Solutions. Simplicity is the global leader in student services technology platforms with state of the art tech that empowers institutions make data driven decisions specific to their goals. A true partner to the institutions simplicity supports all aspects of student life including but not limited to Career Services and Development, Student Conduct and wellbeing, student success and accessibility. To learn more, visit simplicity.com or connect with them on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn. And how will your institution rise to reach today’s socially conscious generation these students report commitment to safety well being and inclusion are as important as academic rigor. When selecting a college. It’s time to reimagine the work of Student Affairs is an investment not an expense. for over 20 years Vector Solutions, which now includes the campus Prevention Network, formerly EverFi has been the partner of choice for more than 2000 colleges and universities and national organizations. With nine efficacy studies behind their courses you can trust and have full confidence that you’re using the standard of care for student safety. Well being an inclusion transform the future of your institution and community serve, like more vectorsolutions.com/studentaffairsnow. Huge shout out to Nat Ambrosey who is our producer formerly, our production assistant, we’ve promoted her producer because she does all the work to make us look and sound good behind the scenes. Thank you Nat. And if you’re listening today and not already receiving our weekly newsletter, please visit our website at studentaffairsnow.com. Scroll to the bottom of the homepage to add your email to the MailChimp list. While you’re there, check out the archives. I’m Keith Edwards. Thanks again to the fabulous guests today and everyone who’s watching and listening. Make it a great week. Thank you all.

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