Student affairs workplace norms and practices have long needed updating and rethinking. Now is the time to address these long-overdue needs and innovate to meet this current moment for our profession and ultimately for students. Dr. Keith Edwards discusses challenges, opportunities, and innovative practices to transform the student affairs workplace for us all with Drs. Chris Conzen, Margaret Sallee, and David Surratt.

Edwards, K. E. (Host). (2021, August 11). Workplace Transformations in Student Affairs. (No. 53) [Audio podcast episode]. In Student Affairs NOW. https://studentaffairsnow.com/workplace-transformation/

Transcript coming

Chris Conzen:

You know, I, I often think of the book, The Giving Tree, when I think about student affairs and you know, how some people come to the giving tree as, oh, that’s a beautiful story of sacrifice. But when you really look at it through a critical lens it’s, it’s actually a tragedy. And that the tree is giving, giving, giving until nothing is left. And we do exist for the students. We are, the colleges would not be here if we did not have students, but we can’t get, we can’t pour out of that empty cup.

Keith Edwards:

Hello, and welcome to Student Affairs Now. I’m your host, Keith Edwards. Today we’re discussing workplace transformations in student affairs. Student Affairs Now is the premier podcast and online learning community for thousands of us worked in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education student affairs. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays. Find details about this episode or browse our archives at StudentAffairsNow.com. Today’s episode is sponsored by Everfi, the trusted partner for 1,500 colleges and universities, and provides a standard of care for student safety and wellbeing with the results to prove it. This episode is also sponsored by LeaderShape, go to Leadershape.org to learn how they can work with you to create adjust, caring, and thriving world. As I mentioned, my name is Keith Edwards. I’m your host, my pronouns are he, him, his and I’m a speaker, consultant, & coach. You can find out more about me at keithedwards.com I’m broadcasting today from Minneapolis, Minnesota at the intersections of the ancestral homelands of the Dakota and Ojibwe peoples.

Keith Edwards:

And I’m really excited for the conversation today. We have three very thoughtful, very innovative folks here, and I’m really energized. We’re here to talk about how we might transform the student affairs workplace. Higher education is notorious for being slow to change, but we’re in a moment where change is impossible to avoid. So how will we shape that change in the student affairs workplace, I’m joined by three super thoughtful folks and provocative practitioners, scholars, and leaders who have been pushing these changes long before COVID. But here as we are returning, moving forward, lots of different ways to think about this, which we’re definitely going to talk about. We really want to take advantage of this opportunity as we move forward. So excited to have all three of you here. Love for you to introduce yourselves. Tell us a little bit about you and your work in student affairs and your connection to our topic today of workplace transformations. Margaret, let’s start with you.

Margaret Sallee:

Thanks Keith. So my name is Margaret Sallee. I’m an associate professor at the University of Buffalo. I use she, her pronouns and the University of Buffalo is located on the lands of the Seneca nation, which is a member of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy. And I came to this work a really long time ago. But most recently has been very passionate about the ways in which we see student affairs folks being asked to meet a lot of demands more and more so I think pre pandemic and certainly during the pandemic, I would be remiss if I did not promote my recently published book, which is called Creating Sustainable Careers in Student Affairs, what ideal worker norms get wrong and how to make it right. And which I bring it together, a collection of folks to talk a little bit about what we can do about a field that we love so much that we, a lot of folks leaving. So I’ll sort of leave it right there and I’ll be happy to talk a little more about it in the hour to come.

Keith Edwards:

Yeah. And we’ll, we’ll, I think reference that. We did an episode earlier with you and a couple other folks, all really about that book. That’s a great companion to this one. And we’ll mention a couple others that I think be good companions this one. So we’re glad to have you back Margaret. David, how about you?

David Surratt:

Yes. Hi David Surratt, he/him pronouns. I’m Vice Provost for Student Affairs and Dean of Students at the University of Oklahoma and also a lecturer in the college of education starting this fall. So good to be here. Been in my role for the last couple of years and worked in higher education for nearly, or actually over over 20 years now at both a large public, since a small private institutional needs coast. So glad to be here.

Keith Edwards:

Glad to have you here. And Chris, tell us a little bit about you.

Chris Conzen:

Hi. Yeah, Chris Conzen he him his pronouns. I am the Executive Director of our Seacaucus Center and Early College Programs at Hudson County Community College, which is located on the ancestral lands of the Munsee Lanape. I’m excited to be here. I am have been excited about this topic for a very long time because I’ve been trying to escape student affairs for a very long time and found myself accidentally back in it, but very happy to be back in it and all along the way, trying to push against the boundaries and some of the practices that I think are not beneficial to, to retaining employees and, and and having them live full lives. So that’s, that’s why I’m here today. Yeah.

Keith Edwards:

I’m getting the quote from The Godfather, “As soon as I get out, they keep pulling me back in” and as you’re mentioning, not, not beneficial to student affairs professionals, but then also that ultimately beneficial to the students that we serve as we go forward. So I’m really excited to have all three of you. I think this is going to be an energetic, provocative, maybe controversial conversation, which we love to have. One of the themes of this podcast that the other hosts and I often talk about as we keep having these conversations on the podcast and so many different topics about, well, we now know this about our students, about student affairs, about student development theory about financial models. We now know this, and so what should we do? And then one of the themes that keeps coming up is people say, yeah, but we’ve known that for 20 years and we haven’t done anything differently. We keep doing the same thing we’ve always done.

Keith Edwards:

So I think it’s a great reminder that we need to keep pushing for change just because we know better, doesn’t mean we do better. And we have proven that higher ed is capable of change because we made a whole bunch of changes really quick. We’ve done lots of things differently from how we serve students to where we work and using virtual and online and mixed methods and hybrid and how we’re engaging students from all around the world. So we are capable of change as we talked about on another podcast, that would be a great companion to this one about, are we evolving, returning, revolving, are we transforming our work? I think one of the things that came up there is that we pivoted a couple of March’s ago. That doesn’t mean we pivoted well. So as we think about the change that has been forced upon us and that that’s happening here, what are some of the changes in the student affairs workplace that we have known needed to shift for a long time and just have not yet shifted. And, Margaret, you mentioned the book that you and colleagues wrote and you organize that project and think about this a lot in your scholarship and your research. And you were doing that long before the pandemic and before COVID what are some of the things we’ve known for a long time that need to shift that we haven’t quite gotten around to actually putting into practice yet.

Margaret Sallee:

The list is lengthy. So I will try and I will try and keep it short. But I mean, the first thing I think a lot about is the fact that we really demand a lot of our professionals of our student affairs educators, right? There’s this, this notion that we talk about in the book of the ideal worker norm, that folks really, they, they exist for the work. And I think, you know, we might get into conversation later about this, about that. There are very different ways of thinking about generationally, about work, right? Some of us are going to an older generations tend to throw themselves into work. And you know what I said earlier in my introduction, like I’ve, I came to this work a long time ago because I’ve really always seen this need for balance. Right? And I think we, as a field are not expecting our professionals to have about that.

Margaret Sallee:

They need to work until the work is done. And if that means they need to stay late, right. To deal with activities, like I’m thinking about my friends who work in student activities or Greek life, or of course our friends in resident’s life or on 24/7, that’s just, that’s just the job, right. That’s sort of, that’s the narrative that’s been constructed. So I think we’ve known this for a really long time that there’s a problem, but there has not really been a push to, to fix it. I’d also add, and I’m sure other folks have a lot to say, so I don’t wanna, I don’t want to talk for a long time, but, you know, I mean, we have issues of low pay. We have lack of advancement opportunities on campuses and, but there’s this push for folks really to keep delivering it.

Margaret Sallee:

I want to point out that it’s because we are, we are part of this larger moment, right. That where there’s a push towards consumerism that are, you know, we’re delivering a product now that our students, right. We see these put these pushes towards, you know, having the lazy river on campus or who best, you know, the best food options. And so I think student affairs feels compelled to respond in a particular way to recruit students and to keep students happy and their parents happy, which leads to this behavior. So I point this say to just say that we’re, we’re all cogs in a machine. But I think that those, those are where would start with

Keith Edwards:

Chris let’s, let’s hear a little bit from you about that.

Chris Conzen:

So I, you know, I think it’s interesting because I, part of what I think the, the issue is, is that the expectation for balance is placed on the individual. And we as managers and supervisors do not either want to or think it is our role to model and encourage balance. And we’re where we’re very happy to accept somebody who’s willing to stay all hours of the night to get a job done. We’re we’re not seeking out and, and our employees and saying, I see that you have 20 unused PTO days. You what’s your plan for those and not are you going to use them, but you’re going to use them. What’s your plan. We do not take an active role in encouraging and expecting balance. And you know, and I made a shift many years ago when in my interviewing, when I would interview for a position and I would meet with the person who would be my potential supervisor, I asked them what their thought on balance was and how they modeled that for their employees.

Chris Conzen:

And, and I made I believe some people made their final decisions about me because I asked that question. But I also made my own final decisions based on somebody’s ability to answer that question. Number one. And normally the, the, the answer that I got quite often was, well, you know, I spend a lot of nights and weekends in the office, but I don’t expect that of my employees. And I said, they see you doing it. And you may say they don’t have to, but they know that you are going to hold them up to the standard. You hold yourselves, and they’re going to be setting themselves up for that as their future as well. So I think the part, the way we start to tackle that is that we in the management and leadership roles need to take a very active role. Yeah.

Keith Edwards:

I want to follow up with you on that. What are the generational differences? Because I do think there are generational differences around the view of work around technology. One of the things I have often heard when people do push back is well, I did it, I lived on campus for 12 years. I was on duty for 20 years. I did this, which is exactly the justification for hazing. I exactly the justification. Right. I went through it now, you’re going to have to, too. Chris, what are you seeing there in terms of, are you seeing generational differences? Are you seeing some, some patterns there?

Chris Conzen:

Well, I think, yes. And I think part of that is that those who remain in the profession are the people who were able to survive that cycle. And so there’s

Keith Edwards:

A survivorship bias people who don’t want to do this leave and go do other things. And then we’re left with leaders who that’s worked for.

Chris Conzen:

Exactly. And so I think in that aspect, maybe it’s not as generational. It’s just, it’s, it’s that we’ve weeded out the individuals who may have pushed back against that norm and have only remained the only ones who remain are the people who have convinced themselves that that’s okay. Or actually do think that’s okay. Which again is that cycle of, of hazing, you know, the people who have found a way to make it okay. That they allowed themselves and that they were, that they were in that system now repurpose, repurpose, outwait that upon other people. And, and just continue that cycle.

Keith Edwards:

What do you think about the influences of technology?

Chris Conzen:

Well, I, you know, I think, and I know we discussed this a little bit earlier. I see this specifically when it comes through the remote work slash work from home and the attitudes towards that. And I saw an article today. I wish I knew that whether it was from New York Times or Fast Company was,

Keith Edwards:

We’ll get it in the show notes, we’ll get it in the show notes.

Chris Conzen:

Great. It was from one or the other. But it said that there was a generational difference in looking at remote work and younger generations want it and, and want to keep it and, and think that this is the future. Whereas older generations are coming from a perspective and thinking that the younger generations are missing out on key components, like team building, relationship building those face-to-face moments and where I think the generational piece does play into that is that you have the older, an individual, the, the, the more in tune they are with that’s how you developed a relationship solely, or mostly in-person. You may have enhanced some online, you know, some came to Facebook later and reconnected with those family members and cousins and people that graduated high school with, but they all started with in-person. You have younger generations who count amongst real friends, people they have solely met online. And some people who they have never met in person, I was a groomsman in a wedding for somebody that I met on Twitter. And so, you know, there’s, there is that real generational divide of people who say, no, I can create real relationships at a distance without being in the same room with another intimate.

Keith Edwards:

Yeah. Thank you. David, I think oftentimes I hear this conversation about unfair expectations being about a generational, but also really being about new professionals versus upper level administration. As we just went through, we talked about all the people who have to work these long hours, student activities, orientation, residence, life I think the other people who have to work long hours and around 24, 7 are called VPs and Deans of Students. Right? Cause you’re at the demand of your students and your staff and the other cabinet and trustees and world events. How are you seeing this from both your leadership position and your own experience?

David Surratt:

Yeah, I honestly, it actually was revealing what Margaret and Chris mentioned too, because you have sort of this, this, a consumer based approach to higher education is oftentimes overtaking different areas. I think it’s gotten a lot better in recent generations, but at one point in time, it was really awful because it was arms races and trying to make the biggest brightest, shiniest thing possible. I think realizing now that that’s not a sustainable, which it’s starting to slow down a little bit, but that when you combine that plus this notion of work-life balance in competition with what I kind of call work-life integration, to be honest with you, is that there’s, there’s natures of this work that I’ve, I’ve certainly chosen to accept in order to make sure I don’t find myself just angry all the time about certain things.

David Surratt:

But acceptance is actually a very conscious effort and conscious tool that I think I use in life. I think we should all do that, but the issue that comes into play though, is that if we’re trying to incorporate this idea of work-life balance oftentimes people who come to this work in terms of student affairs are helpers by nature, they’re wanting to help others succeed by gaining an education that could result in social mobility, economic mobility, all these different things, right? It’s it’s really based in certain types of connection between our values and our effort. The problem is, is I don’t think a lot of leaders in my position or my role oftentimes are trained to be leaders in these types of environments where we’re trying to incorporate as much as the whole person as we possibly can in a very consumer based and, and a capitalist model that is driven by certain types of resources that we have to understand are coming into the university for it to operate and run.

David Surratt:

There’s good things that happen out of it, for sure. But there’s challenges in large bureaucracies, especially, you know you know, one like a large public institution or, or whatnot. And so that, that’s my, my probably biggest critique in addition to what my colleagues mentioned is more flexibility at what about what a connection can look like in a different world and generationally for sure, but also what are we doing to prepare leaders to have different types of gauge engagement with their staff when it comes to emotional intelligence, interpersonal communication, understanding what’s happening contextually within both your university or college setting, how does that connect to the community? How does that connect to the world? Cause if anything, that’s been the reason why I’ve been able to connect with our students over social media and on Twitter and Instagram, because I’ve chosen to actively share things, both personal professional, but also I don’t necessarily shy away from offering comments on larger issues that are, that are big and they’re in the, in the world or in our community that are affecting my staff or my team or my students.

David Surratt:

And so that’s probably one of the biggest things I think that we need to continue to, to push is that the notion of authenticity and authentic leadership is changing into that definition. And if you think about generational pieces of ways that shows up is that, you know, I may have mentors who, who may even told me that they’re fearful of sharing the things that I share on social media. I don’t even think about them that necessarily that you know, controversial, to be honest with you. But I know that I I’ve run into folks, both peers folks who’ve come before me and those who are coming after me who feel like there’s still ways in which you’re getting punished by being authentic leaders and trying to role model that for their staff, whether it be even revealing my challenges or struggles of working and, and managing trauma, you know during COVID, or as we’re recovering from COVID or, or other things that come up in the world.

Keith Edwards:

Yeah. Thank you for that. I want to explore that a little bit more with you David and others, but this moment, and we use that, right, when you say this moment, here’s the laundry list and we’re, we’re going to leave this moment coming from virtual and masking and social distancing, COVID vaccines being available. Now we’re starting to wonder how impervious they are to this Delta variant or requiring recommending masks indoors, even to the vaccinated, the resurgence and uprising for racial justice, a new presidential administration, everything that comes with that legislatively Title IX enrollment cliffs on the horizon, high turnover in senior level leadership across all of higher ed and more all of this, right. When we’re talking about this moment, it’s not just, COVID right. We’re talking about this whole cacophony of things that we’re facing professionally, personally in our lives offers a real opportunity.

Keith Edwards:

Cause I think people are really open to change right now. And I was just talking with one of my coaching clients in her observation is where organizations are open to new models of doing business. They’re seeing a lot of energy and excitement, and I want to figure this out and what’s that going to look like? And it’s not gonna be perfect, but real engagement. And what we’re just going back to what was, there’s a real disengagement, like this is a missed opportunity. But my, my prediction is we have been so, so much in turmoil for so many reasons. And that this window people are open to change, but that window’s going to close. We’re going to get to a point where people are going to say I’ve had it with trying new things. I haven’t had it with new models. I have had it within decisiveness. I want stability as that window to change my clothes. How do you think student affairs should be thinking about this moment as an opportunity? Let’s David, let’s start with you.

David Surratt:

Yeah. The word that you mentioned around stability, it just resonates a lot because, it’s associated with the response and recovery from trauma, right? So when we think about the ways in which our, our social connections and our world, as we knew it, it was making a different type of, or making less meaning over the last year and a half, almost two years, because of, of the, the things that you mentioned between the pandemic of COVID and also the, the, the issues of, of, of racial strife and calls for justice. All these different things were were coming up. I mean, and we also woke up this morning and saw footage of the January 6th insurrection to, as they started their process for hearings and testimonies. Right? So we’ve had so many things happening that have been so disrupting.

David Surratt:

But speaking specifically specific to the pandemic, you literally had a situation in which the things that we normally see as safe, like our social connections, and actually talking to someone and being in presence with, with our family and our friends was literally a threat to our lives. And so when I think about the idea of, of that that idea of, of stability is what people have been yearning for. And so they’re going to go off and look for what’s familiar. And so this is the time for us to continue to challenge the idea of both usefulness and familiarity and making sure we’re distinguishing between those things and not let just pure fear drive us, getting back to what we think is as quote unquote normal. The, the, the funniest thing I remember seeing on, on Twitter about this was like the new, the getting back to normal.

David Surratt:

And then, and you know, when, when we talk about that, the idea of racial injustice, somebody were like, oh, so we’re going to go back to like normal racism, not like extra racism historically. So, so, so this was that notion of challenging. Okay, let’s rethink what we are defining as normal. The other pieces of it that I would say is the normalcy that people are looking for is just a reconnection, which is that as human beings, we want to be able to reconnect in some way form or fashion, but also the idea of routine and routine does not always have to be simply going back to what was, and that’s, that’s the biggest thing for me. I think this was the time also too, that a lot of student affairs professionals, as well as folks who work in operations at institutions need to be the ones who are having different conversations about what can really work.

David Surratt:

We were too scared to make dramatic changes in the past, but when we were forced to make those dramatic changes now I think that this is the time where we need to leverage both our experience of actually getting through the pandemic for a lot of universities. But also speaking now in real terms of how we we navigated that for the last year, there’s a lot of credibility. I think that needs to be leveraged for, for folks like my role or my position and others who are trying to talk about student affairs work

Keith Edwards:

Well. And I’m hearing you saying, this is a real opportunity moment to move forward with new routines, new processes, new ways of doing things that serve us now and in the future and get away from some of those, which we started before that really haven’t been serving us and we’ve known it and we just haven’t done anything about it now is the opportunity to, to leverage some of that Margaret, what else are you seeing that is a real opportunity in this moment going forward?

Margaret Sallee:

So two, I mean, I’ve been ruminating on two things. First, what you said, Keith, about like the window is closing. A lot of campuses have already closed that window and I’m like, I’m angry. I’m not fristrated, I’, angry because it is a really a big missed opportunity. I think everybody sort of to these, the points that have been made already about going back and seeking stability, everybody wants it to be how it was. And I think that we all can agree that how it was in 2019. Wasn’t great. It was not for a lot of folks. But it change is scary. And so, and I think there’s also this, I don’t want to keep coming back to like this bottom line, bottom dollar conversation that there’s, this emphasis are under financial pressure and are trying to get them to keep their students enrolled. And so they’re going back to a place-based way of doing things.

Margaret Sallee:

I think, I think prematurely. But David’s point about people seeking reconnection and to Chris’s earlier point about these generational differences, right? Like I like Chris, I have strong connections with folks who I’ve met online. And I think that there are still ways to connect with staff members and you can connect with your students. You can connect with your coworkers in a virtual space. So this year it was wildly stressful. And we can talk a little bit about, you know, that it was stressful for parents, for caregivers. It was stressful for folks of color, like it was a stress stop, but I think that there are things we could take away to inform our work moving forward. Could we potentially continue to work in a, in a, in a telecommuting way? I think we could. And I think that given the kinds of services students want there, a lot of folks would like to meet online.

Margaret Sallee:

A lot of folks. I mean, I know that a lot of my students, I teach graduate students who don’t want to make a phone call, right? Like they don’t want to meet me face to face. They would rather just email or, you know, come to zoom office hours. So that a bit, that’s a long-winded answer of saying, I think the window is closing for a lot of places, but it shouldn’t. And I think if we continue to think about how we can prioritize connection and continue to meet the needs of students, we can actually, it staff will benefit, which will benefit us in the long run.

Keith Edwards:

Well, I’m hearing from David let’s not just go back to what was, let’s go back to the best of what was and let go of some of the things that weren’t great. Let’s be innovative. Let’s meet the new needs of the moment. And then hearing from you not be afraid of change, let’s embrace change. And you know, some students do want to meet in-person and they want to have sit down with their advisor and they want to go through it. And then, and others, don’t, it’s a two and a half hour drive for me to get to campus. Don’t make me do it, I, to be online. And I think we’re going to see that it is not an either or answer in person versus online. I think that’s where we get into trouble. I think for some of our students with disabilities, being a, have everything being on was a huge detriment and others with disabilities, it was wonderful, right.

Keith Edwards:

So much better for them. And it’s not that one is better than the other, but how do we create this mix and not just the right mix for all of our students, but what’s the right mix for this student. And what’s the right mix for this student. And how do we do that? I mean, we used to start these podcasts explaining to people how how’s zoom works and here’s how to do it. And here’s how you get your lighting, right. And please use your microphone and please, we don’t have to do that anymore. Everybody’s adjusted. And so I think students who were uncomfortable with a lot of online processes, some of them now are comfortable and prefer it. Some of them certainly are eager to get back to it. Chris I’m reminded though that a lot of times these conversations about the workplace and the, the tensions around balance and integration and how we, we discourage balance, but then we also abuse the word of balance, right? And we’ve already talked about some of those tensions, but one of the, I think the challenges is it can be it can be self-involved. It can be about let’s, let’s make this conversation about me as the student affairs professional, what works for me? What do I want to have happen? What’s the work environment that I want to have, and we forget these, these institutions do not exist for student affairs professionals. They exist for students. And so maybe you could help us wade through that complexity in the both/and there.

Chris Conzen:

You know, I, I often think of the book, The Giving Tree, when I think about student affairs and you know, how some people come to the giving tree as, oh, that’s a beautiful story of sacrifice. But when you really look at it through a critical lens it’s, it’s actually a tragedy. And that the tree is giving, giving, giving until nothing is left. And we do exist for the students. We are, the colleges would not be here if we did not have students, but we can’t get, we can’t pour out of that empty cup. And, and I think when we talk about balance, that’s part of it too. It’s why I can’t pay the rent or my mortgage with intrinsic rewards. And, and I think that that’s been the push, you know, look at the difference you’ve made and for some, especially for newer professionals, that, that, that, that goes a long way.

Chris Conzen:

You know, the connections you make with students, seeing the difference you made, getting those, thank you letters, getting the, the shout outs at graduation ceremonies, those those mean a lot. And those carry those, those carry a long way. But eventually, you know, you can, you can only run on those fumes for so long. You need actual gasoline. And so you know, we need to obviously keep in context that we are here for students, but we need to do it smartly and in the right way I can use my own experiences as a, as a former student activities professional. And I think about how that expectation of presence was pushed so much. And I was at so many things that I didn’t need to be at. I didn’t earn a master’s degree to, to chaperone a dance at one in the morning, you know, that the collecting, collecting, you know, dollars and, and checking people in at the door, I wasn’t utilizing any of my skills to do that.

Chris Conzen:

I didn’t need to be there. What I needed to do was processed with the students before, who were planning the event and process with them after talking about what went, right, what went wrong? What do we do do better? What did you learn from this? You know, those, that’s where my role was really important, but you, you, you, you spent me by having me also be there for everything in between. And so I think if we deploy our staff in a smarter way, they’re still present for what’s important, but we also provide them with that balance. And then, you know, one other anecdote I think about again, from my days of, of working student activities at a residential campus you know, they’ll be the late nights and weekends and how I never even got to touch my vacation time, but getting that unofficial, you know, comp time, it wasn’t recorded, but it was a secret deal that, okay, so I worked the whole weekend and all right, you can, you can take off Monday. And then what happens? There’s a meeting scheduled for 10:00 AM on Monday. And so I have to come in because I have to attend that meeting. You let me let me attend that meeting remotely. I’ll do that. I can do that in my PJ’s. I can wake up late and then I can go back to bed right after that meeting’s done and I still get some time back. So there’s, there’s ways that we can incorporate all these things to be smarter about the work we do.

Keith Edwards:

Okay. Well, the thing that you’re reminding me about, particularly with the professionals is how do we focus on sustainability? Right? The Giving Tree is a story of not thinking about how do we keep this tree alive and providing in the longterm, but what is sustainability? And then also wholeness. I’m having a lot of conversations with about the, the generosity of selfishness, right? How do you be selfish so that you get the sleep you need? So you can be a good parent. How do you take the time alone to journal and reflect? So you can show up at work and be present and listen to the challenges and the problems that people are facing. The generosity of selfishness, I think is, is maybe a different way of thinking about it and framing it. What do I need to do for myself so that I can be there for all the people who are counting on me, not just at work but in my life.

Keith Edwards:

Well, you’ve all – we were talking in and around at the problem at all sorts of different angles, generational trauma technology, students, the capitalization and commodification of higher education, so many different things, but I think people are really wanting some solutions, some ideas you all think about this way more than the rest of us do. And so we would love to hear some of your ideas let’s get innovative. What are some of the shifts to student affairs workplace that you would suggest or recommend, or maybe encourage people to, just to consider and what might be some really out there ideas, and maybe you’re not sure are good ideas that you’re pondering. Chris, is there, are there some innovative ideas that you would suggest people kick around, try discuss pilot?

Chris Conzen:

I don’t know that it’s necessarily innovative. It’s just building upon this infrastructure we have now built for ourselves. You know, I think about my colleague who does work in activities, who I, who I commiserate with quite a bit here. And she was, she was saying that the, her, her virtual activities were vibrant. And, and the ways that she was able to connect with students, you know, I think often about this, this blog post that Dr. Robert Kelchen posted about college students, living arrangements, and, you know, the number that always sticks out to me is that less than 16% of undergraduate students actually live on campus. And so I think what’s innovative is redefining and, and for permanently what the word campus community means. Not that it means the physical structure in the space, but, but the, the, all of the tendrils of what the community is. And so, you know, I think the pandemic pushed us to finally own that old Maxim of meeting the students where they’re at.

Chris Conzen:

We finally met the students where they’re at, because we’ve got so many students who don’t, who, who just are passing in the wind who come to campus to take their class, and then leave. We’ve given them opportunities to engage with their, with their classmates, with people that, from, from other classes you know, other peers in ways that they never would have been able to take advantage of because the only times that they had fit into their days were the times to park to get to class and to maybe get a snack and then get home so they could do their homework. So I think we need to, we need to take advantage of the skills that we built in, in creating these virtual and remote communities, the, the technical, the technological infrastructure that we invested in that we used Cares Act money on that we, you know, that we purchased licenses for let’s, let’s use that to its fullest potential and not just save it for special occasions or snow days. Let’s, let’s really, you know, it’s really expand our minds and, and go beyond campus, meaning the quad, but that the campus means wherever we can connect students together. Well,

Keith Edwards:

That statistic points out that, you know, a lot of first-year students live on campus, but not upper-class students, community colleges, online. There’s so many things, right. And there’s traditional experience isn’t traditional at all anymore. But you’re, you know, I think that the case for the traditional experiences let’s use living on campus, let’s use student org involvement. Let’s use your work study. Let’s use eating in the dining hall as a learning opportunity. Well, how do we also use going home and parenting going to your other job managing the commute tending to your older parents, right? How do we use all of that as sort of these learning experiences that can benefit? Because just as there’s challenges, living on a floor with 35 other people, there’s challenges taking care of your aging parents who need your assistance, there’s challenges, all of that can be some of those things that we learn for a lifetime David, what are you thinking about in terms of innovation or even some out there ideas you’re pondering and kicking around?

David Surratt:

Yeah. I struggle with the out there ideas, to be honest with you the capacity for innovative thinking has been really challenging to find that time when we’re still in this recovery process. And I actually think that goes back to what Margaret said is that we’re missing opportunities. I think right now, mainly because a lot of the corporations or businesses organizations that actually made dynamic and innovative changes they didn’t do it in three months or six months time. They did this over two years, probably two, three years of, of actual one thoughtful and connection with community to get feedback directly from folks who are actually facilitating and operating and doing the work. And then getting that to the folks who are the principals, making those decisions around how we move forward. Right. So, I mean, right now you know, we are having conversations and I’m still in conversations of what we do in preparation for fall.

David Surratt:

When we have classes starting less than a month there’s still things we’re having to adjust to. So I will just kind of caveat that, that or maybe even give an excuse as to why I’m not thinking of that many, you know groundbreaking, innovative thinking on this, but you know, as I’m thinking about it, one is, is going back to understanding not only investing in infrastructure, because I think colleges, universities are realizing actually how expensive it is to invest in a real infrastructure that creates more dynamic virtual spaces. That’s what that’s probably why they are just really quickly saying, you know what, everyone you’re coming back to the physical workplace and that’s kind of what we’re doing and we’re moving forward and trying to push that. But I would say, yeah, you know, investing in infrastructure needs and also investing in giving time for staff and faculty members to actually invest themselves in student affairs culture, we’re sort of ingrained to want to continue to grow as professionals, to learn, to be thinking about how we can make our work and ourselves better all the time, frankly, we’re the, that are ripe for this opportunity.

David Surratt:

If we actually as institutions, grant access to time and legitimate time, not like, oh, I’ll let you work full-time during the week. And then you can catch up on your stuff over the weekend. If I give you release time to take a class or do whatever it takes. The other piece that I’ve been telling my staff is that we should now be really thinking hard about whether I have to be the one that, that does that thing, or can it be okay if my colleague and I talk through and I actually take the time to invest in myself in term of professional development and not have to worry about making a ton of work or taking leave, and really actually taking that leave and legitimately taking care of myself and making sure I’m better when I come back. The third thing and that we already talked about it too, though, is generational differences.

David Surratt:

And what work should look like? My staff and I, we talked through it and I remember when I first started working here a couple of years ago, folks were anxious about me watching the clock. I was like, just so you know what? I’m not watching your clock, I do trust you. And when you tell me, Hey, do you mind if I leave early this day, I’m not docking you for that too. I know that one work is getting done and you’re leaving that day because, Hey, you’re picking up your daughter from daycare or you’re managing something that’s a family obligation or I’ve had people apologize to me in the last 20 years because a friend died, our family member died apologizing to me because they had to miss work. I was like, don’t you ever apologize for that? And you just simply tell me you have to go, and this is, and this is what’s going on. And I shouldn’t, I should be supporting you in that. So it’s not super innovative to, to start being more humane in the way we manage and way we listen and communicate with each other.

Keith Edwards:

You used that word humane. And I think it really kind of sums up a lot of what we’ve talking about, about balance, about wholeness, about sustainability, and how would we just be humane with each other and not treat each other as cogs in the wheel. Right. But how do we be humane and listen and see, and understand and, and and untrained some of us, right? A lot of this is unlearning what we’ve seen, what we’ve been socialized in past mentors, what we’ve seen from above what we see in TV and movies and doing some of that unlearning, I think you make a good point about, I think you make a great point. Let me, let me get this down and we’ll go to crystal river. Then you make a great point about student affairs professionals who really are invested in ourselves and our professional development and our growth. I think the place I would challenge that is that often gets actualized as a conference attendance, which is not always the place where that growth and development. And there’s so many other ways to go about doing that. So how can we think more broadly? I mean, to be honest, that’s one of the reasons why we we’ve committed to making this podcast free is we wanted it to be another place of professional development. Having some of these conversations, let’s go to Chris and then we’ll go to Margaret.

Chris Conzen:

What really what just struck me was when David said about that employee apologizing, because what strikes me the most about that is that there was someone along the way who made person feel they had to apologize. And you know, that’s the unlearning that has to happen. The fact that, you know, the, the, like the old adage about the student needing to, to show proof to the professor that somebody died to get to get the forgiveness for missing a class. I mean, the fact that we internalize and feel like I have to apologize because I have to take a day for something that’s important. You know, somebody made them feel like they had to, or they had to explain those things. And that’s what we need to be undoing.

David Surratt:

Absolutely.

Keith Edwards:

Margaret, what innovative ideas would you like to put on folks’ radar to explore and take advantage of this moment of opportunity?

Margaret Sallee:

So, like David, I don’t really think they’re all that innovative. So I have one you know, but coming back to this notion of humanity, what David, you were also talking about it it’s almost trust, right? Like when you were talking to your staff, I’m not watching the clock. I think that there is this notion of, if we have folks in person, we can micromanage their behavior. We can ensure that they’re working all the time. I mean, I know that there are folks who are in the office 40 hours or whatever the standard hours are, and they’re not working. Right. And so what I think that that’s been a lot of, of the excuse for bringing folks back. If they’re on campus, we can control that they’re working and not doing something else. And I think that that’s a terrible reason to bring people back.

Margaret Sallee:

So my innovative though, I don’t think it’s innovative ideas really just to keep this telecommuting as an option for folks. It doesn’t need to be five days a week, but I’ve talked with so many people, whether they have caregiving responsibilities, whether they have a long commute, whether it’s just, they are extreme introverts and don’t want to see people, right. Who would really love to even be on campus four days a week or three days a week. And as we think about, I realized that in some small offices, this may not work right, but in larger offices, you can easily have an office fully staffed with, without people there a hundred percent time. You know, as we think about student affairs, which I didn’t mention at the get go, we have a really high turnover rate. I mean, we, you know, we lose 50% of our people in the first five years.

Margaret Sallee:

So if we’re creating an environment where people feel that they’re supported, then they’re likely to stay, then our students will benefit too. So I would really urge folks to think through how they can staff their divisions in it in an appropriate way while also honoring their employees requests. And yeah, there might be some caregiving happening at the same time, but work we’ve shown that work can happen. And honestly, I would say that parents would find it more stressful to care for kids while working full-time. We should give them the choice if they are fulfilling what they need to do to meet their, you know, their, their performance goals. Isn’t that good enough for us?

Keith Edwards:

Right. I think there’s this tension between when, when people had to work from home, there was a lot of people said, this is really hard. This is really challenging. It’s really difficult. People don’t understand. And now that people are being asked to go back, there’s a lot of people who are saying this is really hard to go back and there’s all these things, and this is way better. And I think it feels like those might’ve been different people, right? And we’re not all the same. We have different perspectives. We have different lives. We talked about some of the pressures facing higher education on us as professionals, but just partners who lost jobs, family members who passed away, people who are in fear for their life and navigating so many different things. We are running out of time. So I want to get a little snippet from each of you, but the three things that are really standing out to me is really a push for flexibility.

Keith Edwards:

There isn’t a single answer for everybody. How do we really bring some flexibility this value of people craving, meaning and connection, our students, us craving, meaning and connection, the sustainability and wholeness pointing to and Chris and The Giving Tree, and then humanity. Those are, those are really standing out to me. But this podcast is called student affairs. Now we’d love to hear what you’re thinking troubling or pondering. Now, whether it’s what we talked about today or other things. And we’d also love to hear from each of you about where folks can connect with you. David, let’s start with you. What, what are you troubling now and how can folks connect with you again? How, what are you troubling now and how can folks connect with you?

David Surratt:

I’m pondering, you know, the idea of one, one big piece, and maybe I should have mentioned earlier is when we can pivot quickly at right now, and I’m thinking about now structurally and macro level, at least thinking about peak times in which our work is demanding and when it is not, and now being more intentional and flexible at those times when we can take the pedal off a little bit and be able to relieve that pressure for our staffs. And so that’s something that I’m thinking about a lot and being as intentional as possible. And the other piece is also where do I use my power and toes in terms of positional power to continue to engage in conversations and push change. And so that’s what I’m thinking about now. And I’d love for folks to reach out and stay connected with me. I’m on LinkedIn. I’m also on Twitter and Instagram at DrDavidSurratt.

Keith Edwards:

Thanks so much, David, how about you, Margaret? What are you troubling now and where can folks connect with you

Margaret Sallee:

I’m troubling a lot? I will say. I think that or at least I’m making a lot of trouble. I think that we continue to need to think how we are going to move forward as a field. If we keep going the way we were going, I think that we’re going to, to run into the same problem. So I urge this notion of flexibility as we continue to move back towards the workplace. I know many of us have already been back then, you know, I was talking about telecommuting, but I also think that to David’s point there different times of the day that some folks want to work. Why not keep it open until 10:00 PM? If we have staff members who want to start working at one, right? We have students who are working full-time I think that we just need to rethink how we’re doing things. And ultimately I think it will be to the benefit of staff and students like, and folks can find me on Twitter and, or via email. And my Twitter is @MWSalllee. And my email is the same at buffalo.edu.

Keith Edwards:

Thank you. Thank you. How about Chris? What are you troubling now? So,

Chris Conzen:

You know, what’s troubling me is something that’s been troubling me for, you know, throughout the pandemic is how many colleagues that I have created connections with over the years have left the field or, and, or are trying to leave the field actively. And it was bubbling before the pandemic, but it just pushed. This was, you know, the great resignation is, is impacting a lot of folks I know, and who aren’t just good at what they do, but were great for the students they worked with as well. And then to make that connection to the students, you know, those institutions and higher education as whole, as a whole has lost of a lot of great professionals who did great things and cared a lot for students because they pushed them to the brink. And the fact that we are not as much as I see the Chronicle say, all of these colleges are looking at new ways to, to find ways to incorporate remote work.

Chris Conzen:

I’m not hearing it from, from colleagues. I am not hearing of many campuses that are having a real consistent approach to a flexible remote work for a broad swath of their employees. So I know people who are looking for that opportunity outside of higher education. And so if we don’t really work on our retention then we’re going to lose a lot of great advocates and a lot of great change makers for the students that were, that are the purpose for what we do. And people can connect with me on Twitter @ChrisConzen and on LinkedIn, Chris Conzen. There aren’t a lot of Chris Conzen’s out there. So it’s easy to find.

Keith Edwards:

That’s kind of surprising to be honest. Yeah. Well, thanks to the three of you for joining, for sharing, some thinking for, for being here with us and pushing some of what we w we think about in student affairs in the workplace, and now we can evolve it. Thank you so much to our guests. I’m grateful for all your time today, as guests on student affairs. Now, thanks to our sponsors Everfi and Leadershape. How will your institution rise to reach today’s socially conscious generation. These students rates commitments to safety, wellbeing, and inclusion, as important as academics and extracurriculars. It’s time to reimagine the work of student affairs as an investment, not an expense for over 20 years. Over five has been the trusted partner for 1500 colleges and universities with nine efficacy studies behind their courses. You will have the confidence that you’re using the standard of care for safety students, for student safety, and we’ll being with the results to prove it transform the future of your institution and the community serve. Learn more at Everfi.com/StudentAffairsNow.

Keith Edwards:

And leadershape. Leadershape partners with colleges and universities to create transformational leadership experiences, both virtual and in person for students and professionals. With the focus on creating a more, just caring and thriving world leadership offers, engaging learning experiences on courageous dialogue, integrity, equity, resilience, and community meeting community building to find out more, please visit leadershape.org/virtualprograms or connect with them on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn.

Chris Conzen:

Huge shout out to Natalie Ambrosey the production assistant for the podcast who does all the behind the scenes work to make us look and sound good. If you’re listening today and not already receiving our weekly newsletter, please visit our website at StudentAffairsNow.com and scroll to the bottom of the homepage to add your email to our MailChimp list, you’ll get the freshest information each Wednesday morning about our newest episode while you’re there, check our archives. I’m Keith Edwards. Thanks again to the fabulous guests today and to everyone who is watching and listening. Thanks to make it thanks and make it a great week all.