JW Tabacchi
Right now I’m really focusing on how we begin to help staff members, and students that we work with shift from a fixed mindset to a growth mindset. And a lot of that is situated and what we’re talking about here is, this is how things are things are movable, this is the right way, this is the wrong way. As opposed to I’m going to enter a space, I’m going to receive information, I’m going to listen, and then I’m going to then speak and I’m going to look for opportunities to grow. And I think once we have a growth mindset, it really helps us deal with adversity, it helps us deal with challenges. And I’ve just really been seeing a lot of people saying this is the right way. And this is the wrong way. And there’s so much more gray in between. And so that’s really what I’ve been pondering and think about how I help my staff, which will then ultimately help the students that they’re working with.

Keith Edwards
Hello, and welcome to Student Affairs NOW, I’m your host Keith Edwards. Today I’m joined by three of the authors of ACPAs racial justice and decolonization expectations project. We’re going to discuss specifically their 3×3 possibilities model to engage in this work. I’m so excited to learn from you all today. Student Affairs now is the premier podcast and online learning community for 1000s of us who work in alongside or adjacent to the field of higher education and student affairs. We release new episodes every week on Wednesdays find details about this episode and browse our archives at studentaffairsnow.com. Student Affairs NOW is sponsored by Symplicity. A true partner Symplicity supports all aspects of student life with technology platforms that empower institutions to make data driven decisions. As I mentioned, I’m your host, Keith Edwards, my pronouns are he him his I’m a speaker, consultant and coach. You can find out more about me at keithedwards.com. I am broadcasting from Minneapolis, Minnesota, at the intersections of the ancestral homelands of both the Dakota in the Ojibwe, peoples. Let’s get to the conversations. Thank you to the three of you for joining us today. Let’s learn a little bit more about each of you and Danielle you’re gonna kick us off.

Danielle Morgan Acosta
Thanks Keith. Hi everyone, Danielle Morgan Acosta she her pronouns, I serve as the Associate Dean of Student Success for student engagement and belonging at Clark University in Worcester, Massachusetts, on the lands of the Nipmuc people. And I’m excited to be talking about this project. I was the convener of the task force in my role as ACPA president from 2022 to 2023.

Keith Edwards
JW, tell us a little bit more about you.

JW Tabacchi
Hi, JW Tabacchi, he him pronouns. I serve as the Director of Student Affairs at Penn State University, the new tech Kensington campus, which is in the Greater Pittsburgh region, ancestral homes of the Osage people, I got involved in this project, right around the time that I was in a professional crossroads, and was situated in Student Conduct and was trying to find ways in which that I could get involved and some DEI efforts not only at my campus, but at the through ACPA. And so after speaking with Vernon Wall, he said, You need to reach out to Danielle, she has this really exciting project. And so not really knowing much more than that. I threw my hat in the ring and said I would love to see what you all are doing and any way that I could help contribute. And it was much of a learning lesson for me about some of these topics as it was as an opportunity to give different insights and perspectives. So I’m very thankful to be a part of this and really excited to speak with you all today about how we came to some of the conclusions that we did.

Keith Edwards
Awesome. And Laura.

Laura L. Arroyo
Hey, everyone, my name is Laura Arroyo, my pronouns are she her hers. And I’m the Assistant Vice Chancellor here at University of Colorado Boulder in student affairs, and this is the ancestral homelands of the Cheyenne and Arapaho nations. And I have had kind of a journey within ACPA. Much of it along with Danielle and with JW started work within the commission, kind of climate commission land and commission for housing a residential life. I’ve served as a member of the governing board and now on the foundation board. My work with this project was interesting, I was completing my dissertation, I had been in writing mode, there was this moment where I think I decided to sign up for everything. I felt like I needed to do something intentional and meaningful after my dissertation. And my doctoral work was very connected to the experience of, of black staff on predominately white college campuses. So I felt a need to be proximate to this work. So first, I really wanted to be involved from the expectations project before that ever we ever wrote, I wanted to provide feedback from a qualitative lens from University of Colorado Boulders experience. And then I think I got voluntold at some point to get involved looking at Danielle over here. But I’m happy I did because I think it was a way to find meaning after my dissertation around racial justice and decolonization.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, another way to contribute further. That’s awesome. So Danielle, you mentioned is a spear president, you were the convener. How did this project emerge? And how did the final document come to be?

Danielle Morgan Acosta
Yeah, so I mean, goodness, I’m so ACPA I would say in 2016 2017 began a journey right under the leadership of Donna Lee and then Stephen John Clay and the governing board at the time, in our particular moment in history of naming a strategic imperative for racial justice and then adding decolonization. And that original note from Donna talked a lot about how it was a call on how we were going to do the work the resources we were going to provide as an association In the ways that we could kind of think and know and be and do all of the work. And among that was a series of conversations and dialogues, there was also the first kind of installment of a resource, the bold vision forward that Steven John quay, added to, and really brought us to the love model, which situates our work in situates. This documents work in a lot of different ways as well. And we had the goal of doing two different types of documents. One was an expectations project, like what are the aspirations that we want for institutions to have, and systems to have? And what does that mean, knowing that it would be bare bones, in some ways, but that no association had really named these are the things you must do. This is what racial justice and decolonization looks like, and had calls from our members of like, this is a cool idea. And I believe in the idea and and what do I do? Like, what’s the thing? Right, and we wanted to be really clear, that wasn’t a checklist. So we had this expectations project that we were going to launch. And then from early on the AICPA staff and some governing board, folks, Stephen, in particular, I think Jamie was involved in it. And Vernon, and everyone was talking about, you know, my philosophy is always like knowing being doing right, so what does this three by three model look like? And originally, we thought there’d be two separate documents. Here’s this expectations project, we’ve done research, we’ve surveyed people, here’s this way of thinking about what racial justice and decolonization looks like that you can do with the individual system and group level, all the time. So we put out a call this so let’s be honest, remember, 2020, to remember, 2021. Remember, 2020, there was a lot of things going on projects, from a volunteer leadership point of view, were not necessarily on the forefront. Because we were doing a lot of work on a variety of levels that I think that we sent the first email out about this project in January of 21. Right, we’re like, come join us, give us your feedback. I think JW did a lot of analysis of the data we received, what we started to notice is the data that we received the things that people wanted, or seen, or thought were important when we talk about racial justice and decolonization and what our campuses or institutions should be doing, aligned with this notion of what’s happening at the individual group and systems level. So the team kind of decided, let’s merge both of these, let’s talk about here are some things that you must be doing as an individual, as a leader, and as an institution. But more importantly, let’s try to help folks think about bringing racial justice and decolonization thinking and ongoing learning to everything that they’re doing. And I think that’s kind of how we started to merge those two ideas together to get to that grander goal of what are the resources and how do we implement them? And what are the tools that we need to continue thinking about how we’re doing the work in meaningful ways?

Keith Edwards
You talked about, I’d love to hear more about the role of whiteness in this project. I think that for folks who aren’t seeing it would be good context for people who are listening, and to be explicit about some of that. Could you say a little bit about that?

Laura L. Arroyo
Yeah, I can jump in. Yeah, I was thinking a little bit about, you know, there was this moment where I felt like personally, there was a call to action. There was a call to action from my, you know, colleagues, staff of color, both institutionally and across the country, who were saying, we’re in this and we feel like we’re in this alone, and we need to see movement, we need to see action. So I think the power of this this, this work is really this question of responsibility, and personal responsibility that we each needed to have. And interestingly enough, as we’re doing and when we were in the doing, and in the writing, we were looking around the room and seeing that it was a lot of white staff, white professionals across Student Affairs, who were doing this writing together and thinking through our own work together, thinking through how difficult that is, how messy it is, how sometimes we don’t know. And when you don’t know, sometimes you don’t do so there was this call to action and responsibility that was asked for pleaded for in some ways, I think within the data that we were seeing in JW, may, you may be able to add to that you were doing a lot of the data analysis work that got us to where we were.

JW Tabacchi
Yeah, and the people that were responding were the broad swath of different demographics and racial identities and backgrounds. And we started to find certain themes that were really important and it was talking about how systemically and I got, broadly speaking, a lot of the administrators that We’re making decisions at the system’s level at the department level are white. And remember, as Daniel mentioned, this is 2021, we’re in the heart of the Black Lives Matter movement, people, there’s riots, there’s protests, there’s exhaustion and fatigue from our colleagues of color about feeling like they’re the ones that are having to do the work. And we’re seeing that in the survey results, people are saying, I’m just exhausted, of having to be the only person of color sitting around the table. And everyone looking at me as though I’m the one that’s supposed to be leading this change. And so throughout this entire process, we sort of, we knew there was a destination we didn’t get we wanted to get to, but we didn’t even know what that destination looked like. And there’s plenty points along the way where we stopped, we said, Wait, do we go left? Right? Do we go backwards, forwards, we weren’t even sure what direction we’re going in. And one of those points was situated in whiteness, we looked at one of our zoom calls, and a lot of the people represented were white. And we said, Should we stop? And should we get more people involved. And there was just a point where we said, you know, what, we had a lot of people. And a lot of them were dropping off for various reasons. And we felt like it was just important enough that we needed to move this forward. And this was a starting point, this was never going to be the destination, that was never going to be the end all be all document. But we just felt like we had a responsibility as people in the field that cared about this, to put something out and start the conversation. And so that’s really what this is, this is a conversation starter, it’s definitely not the comprehensive guide that we hope to one day, move towards. But this is, again, our beginning point.

Keith Edwards
I appreciate that, the both end of that, because I think we hear from folks a lot, we want to center voices of the most marginalized, right, and native indigenous folks, people who experienced racism, and there’s a lot of really good reasons for that, as you’re pointing to. And then there’s a lot of reasons for that, like, it puts all of the burden on them, and they’re exhausted and racial battle fatigue. And it’s always them having to do that. And I think sometimes we get caught in one or the other. But I appreciate how you all were explicit about this is a way for people who are white to take action, it can be applicable to other folks, but we’re not going to avoid the discomfort of we might mess this up. We’re not going to steer away from that and abdicate responsibility, we’re really going to embrace responsibility. I’d love to hear more about that or more about how the document came to be before we move forward.

Danielle Morgan Acosta
I think there’s, you know, two, there’s multiple tensions that I think we worked through and that this document brings up. And so for me, I’m situated I was sitting with, there was urgency for the resource. There was urgency, right. And we know that urgency is rooted in white supremacy, and there’s a lot of things we need to work in in there. And then there was hesitation and fear. And that’s also what normative majority groups tend to do when they can’t act. And so I think we got to a place and we folks really had to come with me on a journey, right? I didn’t know where we were landing. And I do think that a turd. There was some times we would be in meetings and people were like, I’m not seeing this, right? Like, I’m not seeing how these connect, I’m not seeing if we have the resources. I can remember many conversations about do we have enough data? And it was like, do we need more data when we know what’s going on in the world? We’re seeing some things we know there’s resources, we know that there’s literature. And so the tension behind the urgency to have something and the hesitation of starting we realized was rooted in who we were and fear of making mistakes and how we were going to do the work and how that might show up. And almost in writing. It was us living what the expectations that we were telling other folks to do was right, we had to sit and go through that a little bit to get to a this is how you do it. Sometimes you don’t know where to start, because what you have to do is start and that is icky.

Laura L. Arroyo
Yeah, Danielle, I was thinking of that, too, that starting is sometimes the hardest part, right? It’s the place that is is the beginning and the beginnings can be the hardest. Initially. Once you get started, then you find commitment. It reminds me a lot of Bryan Stevenson’s work about proximity, the conversation that he has about you really need to be proximate to an issue. I think for me personally, this was an opportunity to be proximate to the work that I said, I believed in. And if I said I believed in it, then I needed to really do it.

JW Tabacchi
Yeah. One of the quotes that I really liked, that we highlighted was from Grace Boggs, where she talks about move towards the future, lacking a clear cut blueprint. And I think that just summarizes really well, where we were at. We didn’t have a clear cut blueprint, but we had people that were invested in the process. And I hope that you can see that when you read this document that we’re truly invested in this, and we want to make a change, and we talk about this as the conversation starter. And again, in that moment, context matters, people But we’re stopping having conversations, people, we’re moving away from this because it’s messy work, it makes me feel uncomfortable. And we really need to sit in that and think about if we stop having these conversations, then people aren’t going to learn and grow. And so, as we wrote this, we wanted to call out some things. But we didn’t want people to feel like there was a target on their back, like, you’re bad, you’re wrong. If you’re not in the sustainability, or in the highest here, we wanted to invite people. So like, it’s okay to be in the beginning stages. But we need to begin to talk with people about that. And so we will try to form this in a way where we’re having conversations with ourselves. We’re having it with our colleagues, and we’re having with our supervisors, but it’s a way to engage people and be a part of it, as opposed to feeling alienated.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, and I mean, that’s the route of education, right? If you don’t understand, we’re going to help you understand if you understand, but don’t know how to do it, we’re going to help you practice, right. And inviting people into that process. And beyond the journey, I find it really interesting, this whole notion of we just we didn’t know where we’re going to end up. But we just needed to start and figure it out on our way. I think that’s in many ways, kind of a radical way to do do things and see what emerges and what comes from that. I want to shift to the 3×3 possibilities model, which is kind of the heart of this. For folks who are not familiar who haven’t read the document, we’ll put a link in the show notes to that. We’re also going to for folks who are watching or maybe want to watch, we’ll put some some sample of that table that we’re going to talk through here a little bit on the screen. For folks. Before we get too far into it. You’ve already mentioned, the individual group and systems level that makes a lot of sense to me. I’m a little unclear about what is the group level? And what is the system’s level, the individual level, like that makes sense to me. But as I have started, work through this with some other folks and myself, I’m sort of like, well, is the group is that like my department? Is that like my institution? And then systems? Oh, did I do this wrong? So can you clear that up? Or is it supposed to be messy.

Laura L. Arroyo
So I can talk a little bit about my, a lot of my writing was in this section. And I would say that group can be defined in a variety of different spaces in ways. So group is the space that you take up in a room with a group of people group is the influence and power that someone holds in a space because we all have influence. And we all have power, relational influence relational power. A group can also refer to your role as a supervisor, your role influencing a group of people and in influencing individuals. And then I think of this piece of leader, and I’m always careful of the word leader, because I think that that also has some connotations that are really rooted in whiteness. So I’ve leaned in a bit more to that group, that naming of group or that naming of supervisor, because I think it talks about the positionality more, and it talks about the power. And leadership often assumes power. So I’m a little careful of using the word leader, although we do talk about it in this because I think we can’t hide away from it, it is a part of the work. It’s a part of the things that we discuss within student affairs. But that group, that piece is both connected to self, and it’s connected to other. And all of these, all these pieces of the three by three, discuss that and talk about it through the learning the doing and the BA Right. So there’s different stages of the work that we’re doing to understand who we are. But I think the group is the messiest part, I often think about as mid level management, right? It’s that point where we don’t quite know where we’re headed. Similar to this project, we don’t always know where we’re headed. But we also know that we have great influence and ability in our relations with others.

Keith Edwards
So just just to set this up visually, for people who are listening, the three by three model talks about three rows, the individual is a row, the group is a row, the systems is a row, and then three columns of learning, doing and being. I don’t have it in front of me right now. Okay, so that’s the three by three. So you can imagine these nine little squares where we fill in with that kind of an organizer. What more do you want to share?

JW Tabacchi
Yeah, I wanted to just pick up a little bit more on where Laura left off with this group idea, because we talked a lot about management and like managing your department, as opposed to being a part of a system. But then we also had a great conversation where sometimes we’re not managers, but we’re in committee meetings, or we’re in spaces with faculty and students. And that’s not a part of our formalized leadership roles. But we’re in group settings. We’re in teams where there’s different dynamics and different leadership’s and we still need to be aware, we still need to be doing and being in those different spaces. And so we try to think broadly because we all just don’t sit in silos and work in our office and don’t interact with people. And so it really is that interaction where if you’re in a space and someone says something that’s really racially insensitive, but they’re not your direct report, or you don’t work for them, but they’re a colleague or someone else’s colleague, or someone else’s direct report, how do you interact with them. And so that’s why it’s messy, because we realize that we’re just so much more than our positionality and an organization. And we interact with so many different people, not only in our institution, but as a part of different professional associations or in the community. And so that’s why we really sit with a group and team versus the system, where it’s now we’re talking about societal norms, local government, if you’re part of a larger university, where it’s different departments, how you bring about change more broadly, when it’s sort of outside your sphere of influences.

Danielle Morgan Acosta
Yeah, I really think it’s the sphere of influence piece that helped with the separation. So much of the feedback that was in the data was really about supervisors not getting it people that were higher up not getting it like no one’s hearing me, no one’s seeing me like, where do you have the opportunity to engage in voice? How do we create agency because there was such a 20, like, the world was on fire folks did not feel like they had agency for anything, right? They couldn’t leave their house they couldn’t. And so this notion of like, anywhere you sit systems are hierarchical and structure and historical, and there’s a ton of context associated with them. And there are people that continue to allow them to exist. And so the people within them can also have agency to be able to do some pieces. So I think when I think about individuals, the personal work and how you show up, the group is how you influence in whatever community you’re a part of, to make some of those small changes that might not influence the entire system, but start to create ripples. And then a lot of the systemic change that we identify or the audience’s for actions at the systemic level, dig deeper into structure and context and policy. And maybe some of those overarching pieces that make it feel scary or, or make the change feel too big. But at the individual level, we can chip away at it in different places.

Keith Edwards
Well, you just alluded to this with the ripples, but I’m sort of the analogy that’s coming to me is sort of the individual is the drop of water, right? That’s me, the ripples are sort of the group and the influence, which can be direct and indirect, and JW is pointing out formal, but also informal, right? standing waiting for your burger at the dining hall, right. And then the system is the pond or the lake or whatever water, you want to sort of see that that’s really, that’s really connecting with me. We’re going to practice we’re gonna have you all boldly practice this here in a little bit. But what else do you want to say about the 3×3 model? Before we get into getting some examples? Yeah.

Laura L. Arroyo
I was just gonna say there’s this piece of discussion that we had around responsibility and compliance. So compliance is often what we have to do, right. And responsibility is what we’re called to do. And I think this model speaks to me in a variety of ways. But it speaks to me in the responsibility place, that we have a responsibility to growing and learning and being in that work in a self learning space. And we have a responsibility to the people that make up our space. And that’s kind of the the growth in this model. It also reminds me a bit of Bronfenbrenner, from like a theoretical framework place. Bronfenbrenner talks a lot about self individual, it talks about your family system, and it talks about the larger community system around you, and the influences that are placed in each of those levels. What I like about the three by three model is it’s not just a theoretical look about the influences of systems on self. But it’s also about this call to action of how we have a responsibility to changing those systems to influencing those systems. And to Danielle’s point, there was this moment in time where it really felt like the world was happening to us. And we were, we were kind of caught like a cog in a wheel. So interestingly enough, when this was really important, to me, this work became important to me because I felt like I had meaning and a space and time when we were stuck. We were stuck as a society. And there’s so many reasons for that, right? We think about George Floyd happening right around that time, we think about the pandemic, so many things happening to us, and feeling like it was happening with us, but what influence did we have? So this is an opportunity to really draw back and bring us back to that opportunity of influence.

Keith Edwards
And this, this brings me back to agency. We all have agency, we don’t have the same level of agency, our agency might shift from context to context, but there’s always a role that we can play is something we can do to make me make a little bit of difference or just a little thing and others we might have a huge opportunity to shift that and the point Laura was making about leadership. keep wanting to shift this leadership is not a position but a process writing just keep shifting, shifting that here. What anything else about the model before before we jump into some practice

Danielle Morgan Acosta
so I think one thing to note for folks, whether they’re looking at it or not, and in my work with ACPA, and my work around this, what I’ve noticed is that a lot of the work around racial justice and decolonization is not as prescriptive as in particularly white people. But I would also say, Western society really wants it to be

Keith Edwards
all the answers, just tell me what

Danielle Morgan Acosta
the answers tell me what to do. That’s what my orientation leader said, when someone says this, what is it that I do? So we create things in structure, right? Like we create charts, and we create graphs. And something that was really important to us is that, yes, we can make it make more sense on a continuum and in the, in the squares, but the notion of the action is not finite or definitive, right. So we just that, yeah, so we use Bloom’s taxonomy to give us some like action verbs in each of the boxes, to try to say, this is like what that work would look like. So you can apply it to anything that you’re dealing with, or thinking about, and how does the work go that way tied to that. So as much as it’s a chart, and it feels stagnant in some ways. It’s also something that, in my mind, at least, is constantly moving, and growing and shaping based on what’s happening in the world and where you are in that space and where you are in your learning.

Keith Edwards
Well, Laura mentioned some connections, I also was thinking about the social change model leadership and self and group and in society. And when I work with campuses around their curricular approach, and what he wants students to learn, that often emerges, we want them to learn about self awareness or identity, we want them to be in relationship and community. And then what’s the difference you’re going to make in the world engagement or broader things, often with a DEI lens, sort of in the mix there, which is kind of the focus here. JW, you wanted to jump in there before? Go ahead.

JW Tabacchi
Daniel hit on a lot of if we’re trying to ask people to change something, and solve a problem that seems unsolvable. And when things are too big and too complex, we have that hesitancy to say, I don’t even want to get engaged because I don’t even know where to begin. And so we wanted something that was simplistic, but direct. And we talked about, there’s so much information, or we should write a book. Well, that’s going to take a year years, it’s going to take a lot of resources. Yes, yes, yes. And so we wanted to get something out sooner. And so that’s why we chose Okay, let’s break this down into the three by three model, which we use, and other contexts, it’s a little bit more digestible. And it sort of begins to say, like, here’s the pathway forward. Again, this isn’t didactic, this isn’t you have to do these things. But it’s, we’re inviting people along our journey to walk alongside us and say, here are some simple ways in which you can begin to learn, grow, and then ultimately sustain this work. And so trying to just break down some of those barriers or even create in our mind about why can’t get involved, because the issue is just too big to even solve. Yeah.

Keith Edwards
Well, I’ve invited each of you to take on one of them and walk us through. So we’re gonna have each of you talk first about the individual, and what would the learning doing and being look like giving some concrete examples? And we’ll talk about what that would look at the group? And then what would that look like IT systems? So I know you’ve put some thought into this and talked with each other about this. I’m really excited about this. Because as I have worked with it, the individual like I mentioned, the individual level, I get that that seems rather intuitive, what do I need to learn. But then as I moved to the group level, what group and were we talking in the system’s level and should have added been, and then I got back to the individual level. And I love that you’re offering an organizer without being limiting. And I think that’s really helpful. As I’m reading through the document, the organizer is helpful. And I love hearing you now, but don’t be limited by it. Those boxes are permeable. But let’s walk through some examples. So JW, you’re going to walk us through the individual level? Is that right?

JW Tabacchi
Yes. All right. It all starts with the individual. And what we want. And what is most important is that you begin with yourself first, before we can create change in the groups that we’re in, before we can begin to change the system, we have to do the work ourselves. And so it’s really important that we start internally before we move to that external change. And so it took us a while to figure out what’s the difference when we look at individuals versus groups, because a lot of the things that you can do from an awareness perspective, which is the first square from an individual you can do from a group setting, but we tried to really hone in on what we felt like would be important and valuable steps to take when you’re beginning this journey. And so for the individual, you start with awareness, which we have in quotes learning. And so how are you gathering information? How are you putting yourself in situations where you’re going to learn something that you didn’t know? And so from that we talked about reading, and in a day and age now or you can google What are the top books? We encourage people to read? Read books, read literature, ask people that are in the community outside the community, what are your recommendations and just begin to speak with people about how can I learn and read about stories, experiences, and see perspectives that you may have not grown up seeing, or may have not had people in your life that have felt that way. So they couldn’t tell you verbally. Read, watching, observing. I think most of us have some type of streaming service, there are plenty of wonderful, great documentaries out there about lived experiences. So begin to read, learn, grow, have those conversations, putting yourself in situations where maybe you’re going into an environment and a culture where you aren’t familiar, observe what people from different cultures act and think, like, begin to rub shoulders with people that’s really going to help with the awareness. Once you begin to do that. There’s no real set timeframe, like Alright, do this for three months. And now you’re ready to move into the doing phase, it’s going to look different for everyone. But once you begin to start that awareness, we want you to now think what, how am I going to internalize this? How am I going to make this a part of who I am. And that stage is really where you begin to identify as an ally. And think about how I’m going to participate? How I’m going to join discussions and have something of value to add. And that value is going to come from what you’ve read, observed and done. What’s different? Is it a book club? Is it a Community Action Group? Is it something that you’re involved in as part of your campus or your community, but start to begin doing, and then once you do that, we’re hoping that you then become and start with the sustainable the being, this is not just something that you did or something you do occasionally, but it’s a part of your entire being, it’s who you are as a person, there is no sort of me without being a racial justice advocate, me being someone that I don’t look at ways in which that I can break down colonized structures. And so from that, you begin to form habits. Okay, when I’m in meetings, and I see someone that saying racially disparaging remarks, I’m not just going to say like, wow, that’s, that’s really unfortunate. They’re saying that, but you have the voice and agency to speak up and say, like, you know, that’s, you know, I’m really, I felt like something you said, right, that really troubled me, because that’s who you are as a person that troubles you. But the other important part that we really wanted to hone in on is you reflect, okay, so I did call out that person, how did that go? Could I have used a different tone, could I have said something differently, and then revise, because you can’t just go into every situation with the same lens and say, like, it’s going to work. This time, we’re going to put ourselves in different contexts where we need to be able to adapt the situation. But Warren, that sustainable, we’re in that being stage, it’s who we are, we’re looking for opportunities to advocate to be allies, and be the change that we we really want to see. But we have to begin with awareness, work through the internalization, and then end up with the sustainable now, to do that, we’ve had some recommendations where we’ve listed and prescribe some steps for people to really own this. And so things like commit to the work through self awareness and learning. So it really just expands upon those blocks. And we’ve written some some statements down, they’re going to help people learn about it. We’ve also talked about interrogate learned communication, and the impact on others. So what have you learned? How do you communicate? And they How could that potentially be offensive? Or maybe you saying things out of ignorance, so you need to reflect on that and see how your communication is really affecting people hold yourself accountable, and responsible for change. I can tell you amidst this project, I was dealing with a staff member, and I was calling them out on things like grammar, and is that really from a colonized approach where you need to speak and whiteness? And so even in how we’re doing this and learning, we need to be able to hold ourselves accountable and say, You know what, that’s really centered in whiteness on how we do this. And I need to say, like, in the future, is that really what’s important? Is that really what I need to be focusing on as a manager and supervisor, and lastly, be aware and reactive to social movements. And so we lived through Black Lives Matter. It’s not something that’s over, but it’s not the last of it. And as our staff are participating in and dealing with different movements, how are we understanding, okay, if I’m supervising someone that is an identity group or a racial group that’s experiencing some type of trauma, how am I reacting and understanding that that’s something that I need to help I have a duty to care, have conversations with them talk about altering their schedules, but you’re listening to not just what’s happening inside the four walls of your institution, but listening to society and really trying to be someone that’s there as an ally, and as an advocate for change.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, I love this because the awareness, internalization and sustainability really helped break that down. It’s such a wonderful time to be a learner, not just readings, but podcasts and videos and so many things. It’s just an incredible time and I love that you’re connect thing, not just learning from external sources, but also self awareness. And that critical consciousness journey, or that internal had been talking with folks about social change feels like changing everybody else. And it begins with you begins with with the inner work. I’m also hearing some hints of Praxis there, but that reflecting and then doing better and reflecting and doing better. But that’s really helpful. That’s really helpful. So that’s a bit about the individual. And I’m imagining, I could walk through that, that process that you just mentioned, around interacting with Muslim students and Islamophobia. And then I could do that completely differently around learning disabilities, right? And how do I want to learn more about that, right. And so it’s not like a singular path. It’s an ongoing path. And once I’ve learned about Muslim students and Islamophobia, then I can go back and relearn about that, because things change and keep coming back to it and greater level of depth. So this isn’t isn’t a one time through but an ongoing process.

Danielle Morgan Acosta
And good be consistent about any topic, right? Or anything that you’re continuing to learn about. So I think to that, the notion of action. And so yes, you are reading and learning Yes, you are unlearning. And then how does that show up? That for me is where we get to the conference to zation. Like, what is the I think the moment in time when this was written, and we were getting data information, and we were getting feedback, right? There was a lot of well intended people. And people were not seeing well intended people do anything with that well intentioned, give up power, put yourself out there do the scary thing that might get you in trouble if you have autonomy and power and space to be able to do that at work. And so the action oriented pneus of I’m going to do the work internally, and then it’s going to show up for people, I think, at the individual level is some of the most important components that kind of come from how this work continues. And every topic you have to relearn or every, every on a college campus often every year, it’s a new way that we need to go about doing it right in some kind of component.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, I really appreciate that. Because I witnessed that too. After the murder of George Floyd, here in Minneapolis, where I live is doing a lot of work with white folks and Allyship. And that’s what I consistently heard, like, I get it, I’m furious. I just, I don’t know what to do. And it’s not that they didn’t know what to do. They they could name like 20 different things to do. But they didn’t know which one of those. And it was a fear of if I donate, am I going to get criticized for just donating. And we’re going to get criticized returning the wrong thing. If I show it to protest, we’re going to get criticized. And that fear that perfectionism all, I think rooted in whiteness and white supremacy culture you’re pointing to, Alright, we’ve got to get to the group and the system level, Laura, you’re going to lead us through the group and team level? How would you walk us through that learning doing and being for the group?

Laura L. Arroyo
Yeah, and we’ve talked a little bit about this one already. So you know what I will say with the with this section, it can feel messy, it can feel messy in different ways. Because I think the individual places sometimes actually where we get stuck, where we start, and also where we end, to your point Keith folks are uncomfortable, maybe with the movement forward. The irony is that you’re an individual in every space in this in this model. So you’re an individual, both at the individual self category, the group and team and also the system. So I would say that the work really isn’t that different when you’re getting into the group category, because you’re still focused in self to understand who you are, and how you show up in spaces. Right. So the learning the first part of this, this stage is understanding who you are and your influence and your impact on others. So this section, to me, the word that kind of resonates always is positional power, however, within relationships, so I think about that from a supervisory lens. So I’ll give a couple of examples. As a supervisor, I think we often learn through what not to do not what to do. We look to the supervisors that have harmed us, traumatized us. I think for our staff of color, this is even more prevalent. It’s very personal to me as a white staff member who supervises multiple staff of color, this relationship, and my influence, and my care for them really desperately matters in the work. So that’s the individual work that you’re doing to understand who you are, the moment when you think you know what kind of supervisor you are, you’re already wrong. Because every single person is different. And what you bring to that relationship and what they bring to that relationship is different. So thinking also about a team or a group. Each group is different. Each group dynamic is different understanding you and understanding self and understanding where you’re comfortable, where you’re speaking up, or stepping back, that’s really critical. So that’s more in the learning part. The doing is actually the step into that. How do you actually have a relationship where You’re paying attention to positional power, how are you actually creating relationships where your staff know that they can they feel value, and that value shows up in action. So an example of that is how you create opportunities for evaluation and feedback. I’ve heard a lot through Student Affairs in my time in student affairs, well, we want to create spaces where staff can give feedback directly. And then I would ask ourselves to consider whether we feel comfortable with our upline and giving feedback directly. And if we don’t, then we need to create opportunities where folks can give feedback in anonymous ways. Because if we don’t do that, then we’re not actually doing the work and creating spaces within our positional power where people can show up. The being is the space that you take in the space that you hold. The being can be, how you’re thinking about the positions that you’re posting, how you discuss those positions, how you create inclusion within your work. So at a group level, it’s not just about supervising, it’s also about the tasks that that show up as a leader within a space that you have proximity of influence to create, and change and modify to change the, for the better this system. Right. So it’s each of these layers, and the layers are, they’re not simple, they’re not simplistic. I would argue that I never think I know about supervision or leadership. Because once I think I know I’m wrong. And who you were yesterday, is different than who you are tomorrow back to JWs point, because the learning is constant, the learning continues, right? So it doesn’t stop in one moment. And we’re not there. Just like justice work, we were, we’re on a journey, and the journey never ends. So, you know, I think about this as the stage when when we were looking at feedback that supported this project. This is the place where where folks were really calling for action, they were calling for action in how their leader showed up to support them, and speak up to support them. And what we know from the data is that people leave jobs, not always because of the salary mostly because of their supervisor. So this is the opportunity space.

Keith Edwards
Awesome. i That’s really great. You give us so many good things real connected together. Daniel, walk us through the system. So how do we change the pond that we’re in? The whole thing is JW mentioned it can feel overwhelming, what could I do? And then we give up and don’t do anything? So absolutely.

Danielle Morgan Acosta
Yeah. So I think a lot of what we talked about at the system’s level is how are you challenging the status quo and working within the system? This document is very much been about you are in a system and what are you doing in it at the individual group and system level? For that we kind of start awareness is getting a sense of where it is you are what is your system? Where was it founded? Where does it live? How did it situate itself there? What is the history of the land? What are the people that were taken advantage of to create the system that you are currently in? Who’s running the system? Where is the power, right? In order for us to really move to creating change? And moving some of these pieces forward? It’s getting a better sense of historically, what do we need to do? What do we need to document and write down that hasn’t been right? And we’ve struggled with that sometimes we think that writing things down is prescriptive and right. Other times writing things down can be transparent. And um, you know, the removing the unwritten curriculum and the way that people can engage in space. So how are we doing that? And truly learning like, where are we working? Or what system? What is about the system that we’re trying to do is really that awareness area? Then I think, when you get to the ideas into action, it’s what are the mission statements, say, of your spaces, your vision statements? What is the tip of the iceberg? Are we even at a place where we’re calling out the things that we really want to be? And where can we create change there, to then move into deeper pieces? What are our policies? What does it look like when we hire people? What does it look like when we have certain events in which students or staff or faculty, how are people included or excluded? And how are we diving in that ongoing critique and constructive criticism of the system is where we start to have bigger conversations about how we can fix things at a broader and more complex level. Getting to sustainability is hard at systems level, because his work is never done. None of these boxes are ever filled. I think at the system level in particular, there’s always another piece of the system to kind of think through it right. And particularly, this was written towards institutions of higher education in the United States that are rooted in European values, and very much rooted in whiteness, and our boards of trustees and our presidents and our cabinets need to be diversified but also come from a particular space of understanding and at the system’s level, we can start to do some work to really think about what does that mean? Break those pieces apart as challenging the status quo and working through the system means kind of utilizing the power that you have to employ meant to kind of push some things forward. And thinking about how to support staff or disrupt systems and the places that you can kind of create some shifts and create some movement to then kind of break some things down is really, I think what this main point is, what does it mean to unapologetically do this work. And to know that and to build coalitions to be able to do that work together, because there’s a whole bunch of folks in the system and we can, individually as a collective do a lot more to disrupt some pieces as we move to kind of shift where the entire system is.

Keith Edwards
No. Awesome. You’ve pointed out a lot of things we can disrupt or break down or impede and that’s so helpful. And then also, what would liberation look like? What would equity look like? What would freedom look like? What would How would this benefit so many of us, I think that’s a, that’s another thing we can we can also lean into, as expected, where we are running out of time. The podcast is Student Affairs NOW we always like to end with what are each of us thinking, troubling or pondering now, feel free to add in things related to the conversation today, or other things that are just with you in this particular moment in time. And also, if you want to share where folks can connect with you? You’re welcome to do that. So JW, what would you like to? What are you pondering now?

JW Tabacchi
Right now I’m really focusing on how we begin to help staff members, and students that we work with shift from a fixed mindset to a growth mindset. And a lot of that is situated and what we’re talking about here is, this is how things are things are movable, this is the right way, this is the wrong way. As opposed to I’m going to enter a space, I’m going to receive information, I’m going to listen, and then I’m going to then speak and I’m going to look for opportunities to grow. And I think once we have a growth mindset, it really helps us deal with adversity, it helps us deal with challenges. And I’ve just really been seeing a lot of people saying this is the right way. And this is the wrong way. And there’s so much more gray in between. And so that’s really what I’ve been pondering and think about how I help my staff, which will then ultimately help the students that they’re working with.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, and I’m also hearing that the breaking free from binaries in either or into the both and space. So yeah, that’s awesome. That’s awesome. Laura, what are you pondering now? What am

Laura L. Arroyo
I not pondering this time of year, I so I’m actually thinking about the strategic imperative for racial justice and decolonization from a systems lens, but a different systems lens than I’ve ever done before. So often, I’m thinking about the three by three and myself within a system. What I’m considering right now is how our systems need to shift, because they’re not working for our students, they haven’t worked for our students for a long time. But in my position, I have influence. And I have positional leadership to make that change. So an example could be my previous work in Residence Life, I’m thinking about the system of residence life, and how that was really developed often in the 70s, and 80s. And those are not our students anymore, and our systems have changed and the asks have changed. So if you look at crisis response, as a great example, what our students need, and how we’re preparing our staff to be accountable to that space, and supportive in that space, can either help or induce trauma. And if you look at it through a strategic lens, and the strategic imperative guides us, then it can tell us almost tell us and guide us about what we need to do differently in the system to reconstruct. So I’m thinking a bit about that, that’ll be probably the next writing project. I say that because I keep I keep putting it off. So maybe if I speak it into the universe, I will actually have to do it. I think like we need to reconsider what we’ve always done in an entirely different way than ever before.

Keith Edwards
Yeah, and not just for these reasons, but for pandemic and for changing demographics, and enrollment clips and public pressure from so many different places. So I think higher ed is a little too reluctant to really rethink, right? We want to noodle at the edges a little bit, Danielle, what are you pondering now?

Danielle Morgan Acosta
You know, some of it is very similar to that I’m in a small liberal arts and research institution. And you start thinking about being on the defense as a system, right? Like, what does it mean for enrollment for where do we make money so two decisions when there’s less money, and I think similar to how our campuses began, under COVID, when we are on the defense and when we are acting an urgency, we are not strategic. We’re not thinking about the imperative. We aren’t being intentional. We aren’t being inclusive to the work that we need to do and we’re really, what what do we sacrifice when we are in that space? And so I’m really situated in like, how am I a disrupter as we move through that process to make sure that we are re centering and centering the people and the things that we need to be doing? And what does that mean when we know that our institutions have not moved? With our current students, so what does challenge and support look like, to our young Gen Z to how are we being more trauma informed and inclusion informed Universal Design informed? What does that really truly mean for us as we’re moving forward with less resources, trying to figure out the best way, just serve all of our students and allow our systems to move in shape to be able to do that?

Keith Edwards
Yeah. I love that. I love that getting out of reactive and proactive was really drive where we want to go rather than as you said, beyond defense. Yeah. Thanks to all three of you. This has been terrific. Thanks for being with us today. Thanks for your writing. Thanks for your thinking. Thanks for your contribution. Thanks for taking responsibility, and jumping in with your leadership around this. And thanks to each of you for sharing of your own selves, here today, not just what everybody else do, but your own journeys along the way. This has been great. Thanks also to our sponsors of today’s episode Symplicity. Symplicity is the global leader in student services technology platforms with state of the art technology that empowers institutions to make data driven decisions specific to their goals. A true partner to the institution’s Symplicity supports all aspects of student life, including but not limited to Career Services and Development, Student Conduct and well being student success and accessibility services. To learn more, visit symplicity.com or connect with them on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn. And a huge shout out to our producer Nat Ambrosey here does all of the work behind the scenes to make us look and sound good. We love the support for these important conversations from our community. You can help us reach even more folks by subscribing to our podcast, YouTube and weekly newsletter announcing each new episode and more. If you’re so inclined, you can leave us a five star review. It really helps us reach more folks. I’m Keith Edwards. Thanks again to the fabulous guests today and to everyone who is watching and listening. Make it a great week. Thank you all.